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Dorfdad
02-22-2008, 08:59 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/sports/football/22patriots.html?ex=1204261200&en=7b8ddff987863917&ei=5099&partner=TOPIXNEWS


The Patriots (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/profootball/nationalfootballleague/newenglandpatriots/index.html?inline=nyt-org)’ pattern of illicitly videotaping the signals of opposing N.F.L. coaches began in Coach Bill Belichick (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/bill_belichick/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s first preseason with the team in 2000, a former Patriots player said. The information was put to use in that year’s regular-season opener against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/profootball/nationalfootballleague/tampabaybuccaneers/index.html?inline=nyt-org), Belichick’s debut as New England’s coach.


Belichick has said that he misinterpreted the league’s bylaws, telling Goodell that he thought it was permissible to use electronic equipment as long as the information was not used in the same game. That explanation has been greeted with disbelief by some peers and league officials.


In a news conference last week, Goodell said Belichick’s explanation led to the assumption that he had been videotaping opponents’ signals “as long as he has been head coach.”


In the hallway at the convention center here, Mike Martz (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/mike_martz/index.html?inline=nyt-per) wanted to talk about his new job as San Francisco’s offensive coordinator. Instead, reporters peppered him with questions about the Patriots. Martz was the coach of the Rams when the teams met in the Super Bowl six years ago.
He took exception to the theory that the Patriots could not have gleaned much information from taping the walkthrough. He said indeed they could, but added that was not the point.
“For somebody to say that, it’s kind of disgusting,” Martz said. “The whole point is if they really cheated. To say he took some steroids and it did help or it didn’t help, that’s never the point. The point is, to all these high school coaches and high school kids and college kids, that if they did cheat, that’s the point.”
Martz said he assumed the walkthrough report was false. A similar sentiment was voiced by Chicago Bears Coach Lovie Smith, the Rams’ defensive coordinator that season.



Really good read about the who thing. Now I know were kinda beating a dead horse, but some of those lines are troubleling. IF bellicheck has been cheating since DAY ONE of his Coaching tenure I think everyone over evaluates his brilliance..




Think about it if you taped EVERY opposing team you would get a good feeling for their signals that they are calling. 7 years you can build an entire staff position that does nothing but decode these signals and during games can call in those plays when they recognize them..

Im sure every team does something but to get a boost here and there but when your team is a juggernaut year in and out, with different players, coaches you do have to scratch your head...It's possible only one or two staff members knew of this procedure and had access during the games.

YET ANOTHER REASON TO HATE THEM!

MR NFLFAN
02-22-2008, 11:42 AM
Here is something else to think about

February 19, 2008

Hoffman: Suit against Patriots only reaffirms the obvious

By Rich Hoffman
The Philadelphia Daily News
Watching in amazement as Sen. Arlen Specter and some attorneys from the Cincinnati area attempt to turn Bill Belichick and his video camera into a federal case, literally, the following is offered for perspective:
"We know that (stealing signs) became an area of concentration for a lot of teams," the coach said. "I think that crossed the line of ethics; to have teams videotaping me on the sideline, then learning our plays."
The coach in question was Sam Wyche, then of the Tampa Bay Bucs. The quote comes from a St. Petersburg Times story published in 1994.
Then, this:
"We don't do it," another coach said. "There are other clubs that do and are really good at it. There are even two or three teams that videotape the other team's signals and study them ... I don't know if it's legal, but I'm pretty sure it's not kosher."
That coach was Jimmy Johnson, then of the Miami Dolphins. The quote comes from a Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel story published in 1997.
It has been against the rules forever, according to an NFL spokesman contacted the other day, but it seems that at least several teams were undeterred about sideline taping over the years - and, amazingly enough, both the sport and the republic survived. Yet here we all are, in a desperate race to get somebody named Matt Walsh in front of a legal stenographer so that he can tell us what he says he knows about the Patriots and whether they taped the St. Louis Rams at their pre-Super Bowl walkthrough in 2002.
Belichick is on record now, in a Boston Globe story published Monday. He denies everything, up, down and sideways. He says he didn't order videotaping of the walkthrough; he didn't see any tape; he has never seen a tape of any opponent's practice; and he "couldn't pick Matt Walsh out of a lineup."
It was all pretty emphatic - Clemensesque, in fact.
Hugh K. Campbell Jr., one of the attorneys who filed the class-action lawsuit against the Pats and Belichick, said that, like the rest of us, he read the coach's extensive denials Monday morning.
"We're curious to find out what Matt Walsh has to say," he said.
The $100 million lawsuit - which claims to represent the interests of Rams players and ticketholders defrauded by the dastardly Belichick - totals 25 pages. It is a colossal bore, as are most lawsuits. Having subjected it to a thorough and professional review - that is, as thorough and professional a review as can be performed by a layman who is semi-sprawled on a couch and flipping through it during commercials - this seems to be the entire basis of the suit:
"An unidentified source, but one the Boston Herald relied upon enough to publicize the allegation, told the Boston Herald a member of the Patriots video staff taped the St. Louis Rams last 'walk-through' before they played in the 2002 Super Bowl."
That's it. Really.
No?
"I don't think it's only based on a newspaper report," said Campbell, on the phone Monday from his office in Cincinnati.
"Bill Belichick has been fined $500,000 by the league," he said. "Obviously, I think they had proof that he did illegal taping since at least 2000, and I think Sen. Specter would agree with that. The filming didn't just start in 2006."
But videotaping sideline signals is completely different from videotaping a team's walkthrough on the day before the Super Bowl. The former is illegal, but more in the realm of digital gamesmanship, and it has been going on with other NFL teams, or at least alleged, for years; no, decades. The latter is much worse, a whole 'nother kettle of pixels and would almost certainly result in Belichick's being kicked out of the league (for lying to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, if nothing else).
Anyway, the race now is to get Walsh, the former Pats video/lackey guy, under oath. The problem is that Walsh is seeking immunity from a lawsuit regarding anything he says or anything he swiped from the Pats after he was fired.
Campbell said he and one of his co-counsels, Eric C. Deters, were working Monday on finding a way to craft an immunity deal. Campbell said that he was contacting Specter and trying to coordinate their efforts somehow - "It seems to make sense, in that we're all trying to get the same information," he said - and that Deters was contacting Walsh's attorney and working that angle.
"It's up to the court to allow discovery," Campbell said, meaning he can't get Walsh in front of the stenographer until the court says so. "It would be nice if Matt Walsh would come forward."
He will at some point, with some kind of immunity - that seems certain now. At which point, this great governmental intrusion into the unsportsmanlike conduct that has existed in the NFL forever will begin in earnest. Walsh will allege, Belichick will deny, and a grand national search will begin for an NFL version of Andy Pettitte. Hilarity will ensue.


http://www.beloblog.com/ProJo_Blogs/PatsBlog/archives/2008/02/hoffman_suit_ag.html

HaRdKoReXXX
02-22-2008, 12:16 PM
You have to admire NFLFan for throwing others into the fire while his team is burning. I admire your resolve bro but cmon, let it rest.

The Confessor
02-22-2008, 12:22 PM
You have to admire NFLFan for throwing others into the fire while his team is burning. I admire your resolve bro but cmon, let it rest.


Actually, I had to put him on IGNORE months ago. I got very tired of the broken record that insists:

"Even though it smells, looks and tastes like a turd, It still isnt a turd"........

MR NFLFAN
02-22-2008, 01:52 PM
You have to admire NFLFan for throwing others into the fire while his team is burning. I admire your resolve bro but cmon, let it rest.



Sorry I can't take credit for that. The credit belongs to HC Sam Wyche and HC Jimmy Johnson. All the way back to 94 imagine that. :lol:

MR NFLFAN
02-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Actually, I had to put him on IGNORE months ago. I got very tired of the broken record that insists:

"Even though it smells, looks and tastes like a turd, It still isnt a turd"........

I can't help it if you only choose to smell the fresh turds. :D

satz
02-22-2008, 02:43 PM
I am confused as what the new part is....

i saw goddell say he has been doing it from his start as head coach in NE....so what is the new part here ?

Phin-o-rama
02-22-2008, 02:50 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/02/asterisk2-1.jpg

late again
02-22-2008, 03:08 PM
You have to admire NFLFan for throwing others into the fire while his team is burning. I admire your resolve bro but cmon, let it rest.

First off, myself, I think Belichick is guilty of everything he's being accused of. I don't condone it, either. It's nothing less than a blight on the league. But I want you to think about a few things, if you don't mind.
After the 1994 season the 49ers won the SB. Later on they were penalized for salary cap violations from that year. Violations that no doubt allowed them to keep a strong team together and of course gave them a huge edge.
In 2001 the Broncos were fined and lost a draft pick for paying Elway and Terrell Davis money under the table. Then again in 2004 they were penalized again for circumventing the salary cap back between 96 & 98.
These are all real and documented incidents of cheating.
There are quite a few other times that teams have been found to have cheated in one way or another. They've been penalized and everyone then moved on.
I have to wonder why the spygate thing is being so sensationalized compared to other proven and documented occurences. It's not as if the video taping is a more egregious form of cheating than paying Elway and Davis money under the table. They're all equally wrong.
Somewhere along the line someone has an agenda that has little to do with "getting to the bottom of things".

TomBradyWoot
02-22-2008, 03:24 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/02/asterisk2-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/02/artschwager_exclamationpoin-1.jpg

adamprez2003
02-22-2008, 03:42 PM
Sorry I can't take credit for that. The credit belongs to HC Sam Wyche and HC Jimmy Johnson. All the way back to 94 imagine that. :lol: But Jimmy Johnson and Wyche dont mention who was taping them. To have the generic others do it is pointless. Both claim they are innocent and as long as there is one honest team in the NFL the Patriots need to be stripped of their SB trophies for every year they cheated:lol:

Roman529
02-22-2008, 03:43 PM
Did you notice how the NFL Competition Committee tried to sweep all of this under the rug yesterday, and throw their support to Goddell and and his actions.....one of the guys was from the Mara family. He obviously knows where his bread is buttered and would never make any condescending remarks about the Commish. I think Specter needs to convene some hearings on the matter and get some impartial individuals to look into why the tapes were burned. I also think it is time to see and hear what Walsh has on videotape. This is not going to go away Pat's fans. You've cheated since your first SB win.

The Confessor
02-22-2008, 04:06 PM
Did you notice how the NFL Competition Committee tried to sweep all of this under the rug yesterday, and throw their support to Goddell and and his actions.....one of the guys was from the Mara family. He obviously knows where his bread is buttered and would never make any condescending remarks about the Commish. I think Specter needs to convene some hearings on the matter and get some impartial individuals to look into why the tapes were burned. I also think it is time to see and hear what Walsh has on videotape. This is not going to go away Pat's fans. You've cheated since your first SB win.

Well technically speaking, they were cheating BEFORE the first SB win..but who's keeping track :rolleyes:

MR NFLFAN
02-22-2008, 05:36 PM
But Jimmy Johnson and Wyche dont mention who was taping them. To have the generic others do it is pointless. Both claim they are innocent and as long as there is one honest team in the NFL the Patriots need to be stripped of their SB trophies for every year they cheated:lol:

Forgive me if I don't find anything in this to laugh about.

Johnson has admitted to using video tape to steal signals in the past. By the way he's also admitted to circumventing the 15 sec cutoff in communications with the QB too. If you would like a link i can povide one. Haven't you wondered why we never heard about this till now? He even told us the league had warned him to stop doing it so we know they were aware of it.

With that said none of that makes the Pats or Belichick innocent and I'm not trying to say because others have admitted to doing it that any of if should be minimized. Listen to the commisioners responses cause he has stated that it was well known that other teams steal signals as well as other sports and teams know that so they change up the signals. Heck if nobody was stealing them why would we need 2 dummy callers to begin with. Johnson, Wyche are telling us that this is a way of life in the NFL and that it has been for a long time. I don't think all teams did it but certainly by their statements we know that several teams did. The commisioners statement confirms this to me that the league has been aware of it yet has done little in the way of enforcing it, instead when a case of cheating has come up they have hushed it. Instead of providing the resorces to monitor and enforce they chose to present us with a facade of honest and fair games. I'm pissed at Belichick no doubt about it but I'm even more pissed at the league. I would think if you are a fan of the game this knowledge would at the very least be upsetting. How many things over the years has the league swept under the rug? If you're after fair and honest games doen't that practice by the league bother you?
I know that the Pats and coach Belichick will most likely be the fall guys but after this is over how to we assure it never happens again? League policies have to change because the good old boy policies haven't worked in a long time. To many its all about Belichick and the Patriots but it runs much deeper than that and unless the doors of the league aren't blown off its all destined to just remain nothing more than a facade.

brandon1986
02-23-2008, 12:33 AM
the new thing is a former patriot is confirming it and confirming goodell and the NFL tried to keep this hush hush

also ted johnson said he used to get every once in a while a sheet with the opposing teams signals, he said he did not know how the team got it
i guess this is an older story but people discredited johnson because of his axe to grind with bb

the whole "dynasty is tainted" and "the golden boy" legacy may also be

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 02:38 AM
Forgive me if I don't find anything in this to laugh about.

Johnson has admitted to using video tape to steal signals in the past. By the way he's also admitted to circumventing the 15 sec cutoff in communications with the QB too. If you would like a link i can povide one. Haven't you wondered why we never heard about this till now? He even told us the league had warned him to stop doing it so we know they were aware of it.

With that said none of that makes the Pats or Belichick innocent and I'm not trying to say because others have admitted to doing it that any of if should be minimized. Listen to the commisioners responses cause he has stated that it was well known that other teams steal signals as well as other sports and teams know that so they change up the signals. Heck if nobody was stealing them why would we need 2 dummy callers to begin with. Johnson, Wyche are telling us that this is a way of life in the NFL and that it has been for a long time. I don't think all teams did it but certainly by their statements we know that several teams did. The commisioners statement confirms this to me that the league has been aware of it yet has done little in the way of enforcing it, instead when a case of cheating has come up they have hushed it. Instead of providing the resorces to monitor and enforce they chose to present us with a facade of honest and fair games. I'm pissed at Belichick no doubt about it but I'm even more pissed at the league. I would think if you are a fan of the game this knowledge would at the very least be upsetting. How many things over the years has the league swept under the rug? If you're after fair and honest games doen't that practice by the league bother you?
I know that the Pats and coach Belichick will most likely be the fall guys but after this is over how to we assure it never happens again? League policies have to change because the good old boy policies haven't worked in a long time. To many its all about Belichick and the Patriots but it runs much deeper than that and unless the doors of the league aren't blown off its all destined to just remain nothing more than a facade.

Did Jimmy Johnson tape the practices of the Buffalo Bills prior to the SuperBowl? Isnt that what we're talking about here? The SuperBowl years. I dont think anyone cares about a team cheating who didnt win a SuperBowl. If you have proof that Jimmy Johnson cheated his way to a SuperBowl victory please provide a link

MR NFLFAN
02-23-2008, 03:06 AM
Did Jimmy Johnson tape the practices of the Buffalo Bills prior to the SuperBowl? Isnt that what we're talking about here? The SuperBowl years. I dont think anyone cares about a team cheating who didnt win a SuperBowl. If you have proof that Jimmy Johnson cheated his way to a SuperBowl victory please provide a link

I think you've missed the entire point on this issue or you have to be joking.
The senator has used the guise of we deserve honest games to get into a league matter thats really not his concern. I don't remember him ever saying we deserve honest games only if you win a SB.

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 04:00 AM
I think you've missed the entire point on this issue or you have to be joking.
The senator has used the guise of we deserve honest games to get into a league matter thats really not his concern. I don't remember him ever saying we deserve honest games only if you win a SB.

That's the only thing anyone cares about. Do you think Specter would be following up on this if the Eagles hadnt lost a squeaker to the Patriots in their SB matchup? NO way Jose. The only thing anyone cares about anymore is the 3 SBs you guys were in. We dont care if you cheated in 2006 or 2005. All we care about is did you cheat in any of the three years you guys won the SB. If you did, you must be stripped of that title

late again
02-23-2008, 05:27 AM
That's the only thing anyone cares about. Do you think Specter would be following up on this if the Eagles hadnt lost a squeaker to the Patriots in their SB matchup? NO way Jose. The only thing anyone cares about anymore is the 3 SBs you guys were in. We dont care if you cheated in 2006 or 2005. All we care about is did you cheat in any of the three years you guys won the SB. If you did, you must be stripped of that title

History already tells us that's not going to happen. The 49ers still have their title from the 1994 season and the Broncos still have their titles from the 97 & 98 seasons. Both of them were fined and lost draft picks due to circumventing the salary cap prior to winning those Super Bowls.

The Myth
02-23-2008, 10:01 AM
Well lets start with the fact that This Walsh guy who is claiming to have material is a liar and a thief. He was fired from the Patriots for secretly taping coaches, front office staff and other privet conversations. Photos have come to light of him in possession of a lot of equipment that was the property of the New England Patriots that he stole. He got his golf pro job by claiming to have been on his college golf team. Records indicate he never was on any golf team.
In spite the fake indignation by some team and coaches the practice of filming opponents is far from new or restricted to only a hand full of teams.
This is such old news and full of crap it no longer has meaning. The NFL is ready to move on and so should the fans. The report from the Commissioner said that there was zero evidence that the filming aided the team in any way.

MR NFLFAN
02-23-2008, 12:43 PM
That's the only thing anyone cares about. Do you think Specter would be following up on this if the Eagles hadnt lost a squeaker to the Patriots in their SB matchup? NO way Jose. The only thing anyone cares about anymore is the 3 SBs you guys were in. We dont care if you cheated in 2006 or 2005. All we care about is did you cheat in any of the three years you guys won the SB. If you did, you must be stripped of that title

I've said all along that I believe Specter has his own agenda. His two biggest campaign contributors are comcast and the leagal firm that represents comcast and we all are aware of the peeing match they have had with the NFL over rights to broadcast the NFLN as they see fit. Specter is looking our for himself and could care less about honest games. Sorry but honest and politician don't belong in the same sentence.
Specter doesn't even have the eagle or the steelers orgs. on his side as they have stated they don't believe it was the reason they lost that SB so what this amounts is specter is trying to shoot the league with an unloaded gun.
I understand that your angry but this is business and in business sometimes things are done for the sake of profits not honesty or fairness and I believe you are looking for answers that we aren't going to get.

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 12:59 PM
I've said all along that I believe Specter has his own agenda. His two biggest campaign contributors are comcast and the leagal firm that represents comcast and we all are aware of the peeing match they have had with the NFL over rights to broadcast the NFLN as they see fit. Specter is looking our for himself and could care less about honest games. Sorry but honest and politician don't belong in the same sentence.
Specter doesn't even have the eagle or the steelers orgs. on his side as they have stated they don't believe it was the reason they lost that SB so what this amounts is specter is trying to shoot the league with an unloaded gun.
I understand that your angry but this is business and in business sometimes things are done for the sake of profits not honesty or fairness and I believe you are looking for answers that we aren't going to get.

I'm not angry about any of this. This spygate business is simply the gift that keeps giving. I think you severely underestimate the legs this thing has. If the NFL was killing this investigation why did Goodell announce yesterday that he hopes to have the indemnity deal worked out by next week

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 01:02 PM
History already tells us that's not going to happen. The 49ers still have their title from the 1994 season and the Broncos still have their titles from the 97 & 98 seasons. Both of them were fined and lost draft picks due to circumventing the salary cap prior to winning those Super Bowls. Breaking the salary cap is certainly cheating but its not game specific the way taping a team's walkthrough the day before the SB is. The Rams SB title will be stripped if the tape is produced. If there is no tape then the title will be kept

MR NFLFAN
02-23-2008, 01:20 PM
I'm not angry about any of this. This spygate business is simply the gift that keeps giving. I think you severely underestimate the legs this thing has. If the NFL was killing this investigation why did Goodell announce yesterday that he hopes to have the indemnity deal worked out by next week

Goodells announcement is more of the leagues facade and nothing more.
As we type here Spygate's legs are being knee capped. Read the storied from the links below it might open your eyes to whats really happening and how the league plans on dealing with this.

Specter irked by uncooperative Pats, league in Spygate probe


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3259486



Competition committee approves of Goodell's handling of Spygate

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3259278

MattM
02-23-2008, 01:25 PM
Well lets start with the fact that This Walsh guy who is claiming to have material is a liar and a thief. He was fired from the Patriots for secretly taping coaches, front office staff and other privet conversations. Photos have come to light of him in possession of a lot of equipment that was the property of the New England Patriots that he stole. He got his golf pro job by claiming to have been on his college golf team. Records indicate he never was on any golf team.
In spite the fake indignation by some team and coaches the practice of filming opponents is far from new or restricted to only a hand full of teams.
This is such old news and full of crap it no longer has meaning. The NFL is ready to move on and so should the fans. The report from the Commissioner said that there was zero evidence that the filming aided the team in any way.

Funny how you Pats* fans are the only ones saying this is old and needs to go away--now why do you think that is? The rest of us are interested in the integrity of the game and want to take this where it leads. What's the matter--got something to hide? If what I suspect is true actually is, then when this is all over BB, a number of his current and former assistants and Roger Goodell will all be unemployed and out of football for life and if there's any justice the Pats* will be stripped of their titles and a boatload of draft picks and even Krafty Bob may find that he's no longer welcome in NFL circles. I'm waiting for the "flipping" to start once the heat is turned up here and we got to some of the other things I've long suspected with the Pats*, like bribing refs. (Just watch any number of Bills-Pats games over the last few years and you'll see what I mean--last year's season opener officiating was so bad that it got a mention in TMQ).

In terms of your wish that this story goes away, suck on this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3259486

"Specter irked by uncooperative Pats, League"

This ain't going away any time soon.....

MattM
02-23-2008, 01:27 PM
As we type here Spygate's legs are being knee capped. Read the storied from the links below it might open your eyes to whats really happening and how the league plans on dealing with this.

Specter irked by uncooperative Pats, league in Spygate probe


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3259486



Competition committee approves of Goodell's handling of Spygate

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3259278

What are you, nuts? If you read that first article it's pretty clear Specter ain't going away anytime soon. The League can put its collective head in the sand all it wants, but when Congressional subpoenae start flying we'll see what happens. In the meantime, the League is clearly losing this PR battle--don't believe me, check out this board or any other non-Pats message board on this topic. People want to know what the truth is on this and until we hear from Walsh at a minimum, this is not going away. FYI, the NYT also ran a large story on this again today as well....

MR NFLFAN
02-23-2008, 01:35 PM
Breaking the salary cap is certainly cheating but its not game specific the way taping a team's walkthrough the day before the SB is. The Rams SB title will be stripped if the tape is produced. If there is no tape then the title will be kept


I think I understand you... cheating is ok unless its in a SB, involves video tape AND is patriots specfic. :up:

MR NFLFAN
02-23-2008, 01:57 PM
What are you, nuts? If you read that first article it's pretty clear Specter ain't going away anytime soon. The League can put its collective head in the sand all it wants, but when Congressional subpoenae start flying we'll see what happens. In the meantime, the League is clearly losing this PR battle--don't believe me, check out this board or any other non-Pats message board on this topic. People want to know what the truth is on this and until we hear from Walsh at a minimum, this is not going away. FYI, the NYT also ran a large story on this again today as well....

Well MattM my sanity could be questionable I suppose :winkwink: but I'm certainly not blind.
Tell me besides Specter and one quick mention of Leahy from Specter what other members of the senate have shown interest in wasting tax dollars to persue an issue where no laws were broken?

I've made many post on the camera gate thing here. I've posted links to Johnsons admitting to cheating in the past. Late again has posted facts about the 9ers and the broncos circumventing the salary cap to cheat. Links have been provided of stories of others doing things over the years that would clearly be considered cheating but largely these post have all been simply blown off by many here. I've wondered why aren't people pissed at the league for sweeping all of it under the carpet for such a long time and for being more concerned with providing us with a facade of honesty instead of actually insuring honest and fair games.
The obvious fact is People don't really want the truth and aren't concerned with honest games they just want to hang the Patriots plain and simple. Cheating and dishonesty didn't begin here in NE with sygate and its not going to end here either and my honest opinion on this is the league doesn't really care about honest games they only cares that they look that way to us the fans. I'm afraid the NFL is more like the WWF than any of us really want to admit.

late again
02-23-2008, 02:00 PM
I think I understand you... cheating is ok unless its in a SB, involves video tape AND is patriots specfic. :up:

One point in particular that everyone seems to be missing is that one of the Pats' attorneys is saying that Walsh didn't have a confidentiality agreement with the Pats !!!!! Now I don't for a minute expect attorneys to not lie for a client. However, stating publicly that there is no confidentiality agreement to prevent him from speaking up is pretty much steering onto a one way street - you can't back up later. If this is true Walsh has taken us all for a ride.

late again
02-23-2008, 02:17 PM
Breaking the salary cap is certainly cheating but its not game specific the way taping a team's walkthrough the day before the SB is. The Rams SB title will be stripped if the tape is produced. If there is no tape then the title will be kept

You can't be serious???? The Broncos paid their 2 star playmakers under the table. It has been well documented that Elway and Davis received money outside the boundaries of the salary cap rules during the time period that they won 2 SBs. This act in itself gave them a definite competitive edge. They circumvented the salary cap; c'mon. No it's not "game specific". It's "entire season specific". How can you say that it's not as bad?
For that matter, who gets to decide on the varying degrees of "bad".

Is taking steroids as bad or not as bad as taping a walkthrough? Marion Jones was stripped of her Olympic medals for taking steroids.
Is tampering as bad or not as bad? Kelvin Sampson just lost his job at IU for making phone calls not consistent with NCAA rules.

MR NFLFAN
02-23-2008, 03:47 PM
One point in particular that everyone seems to be missing is that one of the Pats' attorneys is saying that Walsh didn't have a confidentiality agreement with the Pats !!!!! Now I don't for a minute expect attorneys to not lie for a client. However, stating publicly that there is no confidentiality agreement to prevent him from speaking up is pretty much steering onto a one way street - you can't back up later. If this is true Walsh has taken us all for a ride.

From PFT


WALSH HAS NO CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT
Matt Walsh claims that a confidentiality agreement (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/02/21/progressing_toward_deal/) prevents him from talking to the NFL or Congress or anyone else about things he learned, witnessed, and/or did while employed by the New England Patriots.
The Patriots contend that Walsh is incorrect.
Buried in Mike Fish's latest item regarding Spygate II is this statement: "An attorney for the Patriots told ESPN.com that Walsh did not have a confidentiality agreement (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3259486) with the franchise or anything else that might prevent his cooperation."
So if the concern was/is that Walsh would be sued for telling secrets in violation of a confidentiality agreement, that concern is simply not valid, if the Patriots' version of the facts is accurate.
Why, then, won't Walsh talk?
It could be that he fears legal action based on any team property he has retained. It could be that he is worried about being sued for defamation once he speaks.
More importantly, the actual state of affairs as to whether there is a confidentiality agreement could shed more light on the overall credibility of Walsh, and of the Patriots. Whoever is wrong on such an obvious fact could be wrong on other facts.
But the sense we're getting is that many in the media are hoping for this to become a story of cheating and scandal and cover-ups and suspensions and forfeits. And so folks might be steering clear of delving into questions that could be resolved in a manner that leads to a conclusion that Walsh simply can't be believed, on anything.

http://profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

TomBradyWoot
02-23-2008, 08:20 PM
I don't quite understand the "Well the Broncos cheating isn't as bad as the Patriots cheating" argument.

The Patriots videotaping signals...means that when Dom Capers (or whoever is delivering the signals for Miami at the time) holds a right hand over his eye and tugs on his left ear Zach Thomas blitzes, a coach in the booth has to see that and after Tom Brady has gotten the play, if they still have enough time left in the communications, relay that information to him. Is it worthwhile? Sure, I guess. Although many people have said it's really not all that. Even if Faulk is knowing Thomas is blitzing, he still has to find him and block him, and hope Jason Taylor doesn't abuse Matt Light (which he often does) to get to Brady, and Brady still has to hope the DB covering Deion Branch or David Givens or Reche Caldwell or Randy Moss or whoever the WRs are at the time, blow their coverage. But clearly, you guys are ignoring all that and only want to believe it's game-changing. Which, I do understand. I can't say with certainty if this were flipped I wouldn't be on that point myself.

The Denver Broncos paid Elway and Davis under the table millions of dollars in order to meet the salary cap and still give them money. That's hugely significant. If they have to pay Elway and Davis an extra $5Million to the salary cap they may not have a key player during those Super Bowl runs. Now, similar to my feeling with the Patriots, I don't think it's all that significant because I'm sure they weren't the only teams doing it, they're just the ones that got caught.

But why didn't the policitians from Wisconsin or Georgia get all over it? ESPECIALLY since Green Bay is publicly owned. Because they don't care. They understand. Specter clearly has an agenda. If you guys can't see that, then it's obvious you have an agenda as well. You just don't have the public forum to have your voice heard like Specter does.

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 09:13 PM
I think I understand you... cheating is ok unless its in a SB, involves video tape AND is patriots specfic. :up: You dont understand a thing. I said both are cheating and I have no problem you trying your best to get those SB titles stripped. Its not going to happen because noone cares. What you fail to grasp is that noone cares about the rest of the cheating. People CARE about the Patriots cheating. And that's what makes it different and that's why you guys are doomed if tapes exist

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 09:16 PM
You can't be serious???? The Broncos paid their 2 star playmakers under the table. It has been well documented that Elway and Davis received money outside the boundaries of the salary cap rules during the time period that they won 2 SBs. This act in itself gave them a definite competitive edge. They circumvented the salary cap; c'mon. No it's not "game specific". It's "entire season specific". How can you say that it's not as bad?
For that matter, who gets to decide on the varying degrees of "bad".

Is taking steroids as bad or not as bad as taping a walkthrough? Marion Jones was stripped of her Olympic medals for taking steroids.
Is tampering as bad or not as bad? Kelvin Sampson just lost his job at IU for making phone calls not consistent with NCAA rules.

One is game specific, the other isnt. There was no moral arguments made on my part which one is worse, just stating simple facts about both transgressions. You are free to determine on your own which one is worse but there are no stories being investigated about the Broncos and 49ers. The Patriots on the other hand.......

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 09:18 PM
From PFT


WALSH HAS NO CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT
Matt Walsh claims that a confidentiality agreement (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/02/21/progressing_toward_deal/) prevents him from talking to the NFL or Congress or anyone else about things he learned, witnessed, and/or did while employed by the New England Patriots.
The Patriots contend that Walsh is incorrect.
Buried in Mike Fish's latest item regarding Spygate II is this statement: "An attorney for the Patriots told ESPN.com that Walsh did not have a confidentiality agreement (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3259486) with the franchise or anything else that might prevent his cooperation."
So if the concern was/is that Walsh would be sued for telling secrets in violation of a confidentiality agreement, that concern is simply not valid, if the Patriots' version of the facts is accurate.
Why, then, won't Walsh talk?
It could be that he fears legal action based on any team property he has retained. It could be that he is worried about being sued for defamation once he speaks.
More importantly, the actual state of affairs as to whether there is a confidentiality agreement could shed more light on the overall credibility of Walsh, and of the Patriots. Whoever is wrong on such an obvious fact could be wrong on other facts.
But the sense we're getting is that many in the media are hoping for this to become a story of cheating and scandal and cover-ups and suspensions and forfeits. And so folks might be steering clear of delving into questions that could be resolved in a manner that leads to a conclusion that Walsh simply can't be believed, on anything.



http://profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm


Even if PFT is right you need a better source. I would use a letter from Charles Manson as a source before I use PFT

adamprez2003
02-23-2008, 09:21 PM
I don't quite understand the "Well the Broncos cheating isn't as bad as the Patriots cheating" argument.

The Patriots videotaping signals...means that when Dom Capers (or whoever is delivering the signals for Miami at the time) holds a right hand over his eye and tugs on his left ear Zach Thomas blitzes, a coach in the booth has to see that and after Tom Brady has gotten the play, if they still have enough time left in the communications, relay that information to him. Is it worthwhile? Sure, I guess. Although many people have said it's really not all that. Even if Faulk is knowing Thomas is blitzing, he still has to find him and block him, and hope Jason Taylor doesn't abuse Matt Light (which he often does) to get to Brady, and Brady still has to hope the DB covering Deion Branch or David Givens or Reche Caldwell or Randy Moss or whoever the WRs are at the time, blow their coverage. But clearly, you guys are ignoring all that and only want to believe it's game-changing. Which, I do understand. I can't say with certainty if this were flipped I wouldn't be on that point myself.

The Denver Broncos paid Elway and Davis under the table millions of dollars in order to meet the salary cap and still give them money. That's hugely significant. If they have to pay Elway and Davis an extra $5Million to the salary cap they may not have a key player during those Super Bowl runs. Now, similar to my feeling with the Patriots, I don't think it's all that significant because I'm sure they weren't the only teams doing it, they're just the ones that got caught.

But why didn't the policitians from Wisconsin or Georgia get all over it? ESPECIALLY since Green Bay is publicly owned. Because they don't care. They understand. Specter clearly has an agenda. If you guys can't see that, then it's obvious you have an agenda as well. You just don't have the public forum to have your voice heard like Specter does. You're the only one with an agenda here. Protecting your Field Goal Dynasty from becoming an Asterisk Dynasty. Too late my friend, too late :lol:

MR NFLFAN
02-23-2008, 09:42 PM
You dont understand a thing. I said both are cheating and I have no problem you trying your best to get those SB titles stripped. Its not going to happen because noone cares. What you fail to grasp is that noone cares about the rest of the cheating. People CARE about the Patriots cheating. And that's what makes it different and that's why you guys are doomed if tapes exist


Cheating is cheating weather its in game 1 or the SB and all are just as important if honest and fair games are really the goal that Specter is after. Your comments really prove my point that he was never after those things he has other motives. To the fans like yourself this is nothing more than a witch hunt because the Pats have won so much. NE has been punished to the likes of what we've never seen before, The comp committee is satisfied the league handled this swiftly, correctly, and justly and flat out said they want to put it to rest and move on from here which is the best thing the league can do business wise and thats what they intend to do. Believe what you want what ever the witch hunters want to print but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to see any SB titles stripped. It's never happen in past cheating cases and it won't now.
I don't see Goodell taking this any further than he has and he has clearly already taking a stand that he feels best for the league.

Mike13
02-24-2008, 11:20 AM
Well lets start with the fact that This Walsh guy who is claiming to have material is a liar and a thief. He was fired from the Patriots for secretly taping coaches, front office staff and other privet conversations. Photos have come to light of him in possession of a lot of equipment that was the property of the New England Patriots that he stole. He got his golf pro job by claiming to have been on his college golf team. Records indicate he never was on any golf team.
In spite the fake indignation by some team and coaches the practice of filming opponents is far from new or restricted to only a hand full of teams.
This is such old news and full of crap it no longer has meaning. The NFL is ready to move on and so should the fans. The report from the Commissioner said that there was zero evidence that the filming aided the team in any way.


Translation:Please leave us alone!:boohoo::boohoo::boohoo::boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:

TomBradyWoot
02-24-2008, 11:58 AM
You're the only one with an agenda here. Protecting your Field Goal Dynasty from becoming an Asterisk Dynasty. Too late my friend, too late :lol:
Oh. Ok. I have an agenda becuse I said the Patriots cheated but so did Denver and neither were a big deal because I'm sure everybody did it.

And I'm not all that worried about you guys going "Pats*", it's not like that matters. You guys don't write the NFL History books. You aren't Steve Sabol and narrate NFL Films. When you watch Super Bowl 38 highlights you aren't going to hear "The Carolina Panthers going up against the favored New England Patriots asterisk was one of the better games in Super Bowl history". So really, it doesn't matter much at all.

And even though you hate PFT as a "source", since he's just providing links and quotes, I'll share.


Regardless of whether the Patriots did or didn’t videotape the Rams’ walk-through practice prior to Super Bowl XXXVI, it’s not the first time that such allegations have been raised.
As Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports wrote in the days following the discovery that the Pats were taping defensive coaching signals during a Week One game against the Jets, the Broncos were suspected at one time of secretly videotaping Chargers practices.
Wrote Cole: “The San Diego Chargers increased their security several years ago at a hill overlooking the practice field at the team facility during weeks when they played the Denver Broncos. Why? It turns out Broncos coach Mike Shanahan had been hiring spies to videotape the Chargers practices (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-historynflcheating&prov=yhoo&type=lgns). The NFL had been aware of it for several years (at least one NFL official had seen one of the tapes), but didn’t step in because it was considered a team issue.”
Such stories tend to support the rumor that Patriots coach Bill Belichick included with the materials surrendered to the league extensive evidence of cheating by other teams.
Further bolstering the belief that the Pats weren’t the only team doing what they were caught doing are the comments of former Cowboys and Dolphins coach Jimmy Johnson. The Boston Herald has posted the transcript of a WFAN interview that we first mentioned on September 29, during which Johnson said that the videotaping of defensive coaching signals was a widespread practice.
“I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league (http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/index.php/2008/02/23/jimmy-johnson-thinks-spygate-is-overblown/),” Johnson said on September 28. “Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.”
And this kind stuff is nothing new. Way back in 1967, Lee Grosscup wrote an item for Sport magazine that delved into the issue of spying in football (http://www.thesportgallery.com/sport-stories/1967aug-nflspy.html).
The bigger issue with what the Patriots did against the Jets is that the Pats continued to do something that the league had specifically told teams not to do, and that the Jets decided to make a sufficiently big deal about it that it set off a media firestorm.
The staggering penalty applied to the Patriots ($250,000 fine and loss of a first-round pick) and coach Bill Belichick ($500,000 fine) created the impression that this really was a big deal, regardless of the fact that it had been going on for an extended period of time.
And by hitting the Pats so hard, the league backed itself into a corner. If the videotaping of defensive coaching signals compels such a harsh sanction, evidence that such things have been occurring on a widespread basis would potentially shake public confidence in the sport.
But at a time when folks are chasing (as we think they should) the question of whether the Patriots cheated in connection with Super Bowl XXXVI or any other postseason game since 2001, we think that resources and effort also should be devoted to exploring whether and to what extent there has been cheating by other teams.
Maybe that’s why teams like the Steelers and Eagles aren’t willing to blame spying on losses to the Pats in the 2004 AFC title game and Super Bowl XXXIX, respectively. Maybe the problem in both cases isn’t that either of the teams within Senator Arlen Specter’s territory were the victims of skullduggery. Maybe the problem is that they didn’t take enough steps to prevent themselves from being victimized by practices that were an open secret prior to Week One of the 2007 regular season.
Cowboys*!

This is such a different time, THAT'S why this isn't going away. It has very little to do with people caring. It has alot to do with the way everything is now than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. Blogs are the way to go now. Message board forums. Every city has all sports talk radio. Sportscenter runs for 7 hours a day, as well as several shows like Around the Horn and PTI. ESPN2 has a few shows dedicated to sports talk instead of just showing stuff like motorcycle racing when they first started. ESPN News is a half hour of sportscenter basically all day long. If you have DirecTV you can get all other sports channels from other cities. NFL is the most popular sport in the country (it was MLB). Sports in general are much more popular. You can get text messages telling you all the news in sports. Cell phones can access the internet, allowing you to view any sports news when you can't get to a television. Issues are just blown up entirely. The way as a society that we operate now is much different than 1992, 1998, or even 2001.

MR NFLFAN
02-24-2008, 02:33 PM
You dont understand a thing. I said both are cheating and I have no problem you trying your best to get those SB titles stripped. Its not going to happen because noone cares. What you fail to grasp is that noone cares about the rest of the cheating. People CARE about the Patriots cheating. And that's what makes it different and that's why you guys are doomed if tapes exist

I dont think anyone cares about a team cheating who didnt win a SuperBowl.
The only thing anyone cares about anymore is the 3 SBs you guys were in.
Breaking the salary cap is certainly cheating but its not game specific
noone cares about the rest of the cheating


You dont understand a thing

Don't fool yourself your motives are as transparent as plastic wrap.

shula_guy
02-29-2008, 04:06 PM
I dont understand the mentality of "because other teams or coaches have admitted or been caught cheating in the past that this sopme how justifies the Patriots getting caught". It seems to me as if many Patriots supporters are trying to make light of the charges being levied against them by envoking an "everyone cheats" defense. Cheating is cheating is cheating, end of story. Now I will agree that there are differing degrees of cheating and the punishment should fit the level of the infraction. I personally am not knowledgable enough to have an inteligent oppinion on how serious these aligations are against the Patriots. I will say this much, a full investigation should take place and if there was wrongfull actions, then there should be a penality to pay. If it turns out that people have been lying or deystroying evidences that impead us to getting to the truth, those individuals should be made examples of and severly penalized.

Honestly, Godell botched this up by deystroying evidence. He should of locked up whatever he had in a safe that he had the only key to and offered to release it to the public far enough in the future that it would not affect teams in the upcoming seasons. Everyone would of been satisfied with that type of response. When he deystroyed the tapes he started a witch hunt. People became suspicious of why he felt the need to deystroy things.

In fact peoples fears may not be unrealistic judging from what the facts that are coming out seem to be hinting at. BB & Co. might just be dirtier then some of you thought.

Personally I will not jump to any conclussions until the investigation finishes bringing out all the facts. If they are guilty, punish them accordingly and then maybe we can all move on.

HaRdKoReXXX
02-29-2008, 05:29 PM
"A sinking ship always has sailors who make desperate attempts, but the outcome is always the same."

Remember that before you post anymore crybaby rants about how your team wasn't the only one who cheated :boohoo: