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MattM
03-09-2008, 10:33 AM
Incredible, if true, considering what happened in the past (i.e., the destruction of evidence before anyone else could see and judge it). I've highlighted what to me is the most interesting part here. Does this leave any doubt that the SB Walkthrough most likely exists and the League is trying to protect the Pats* behind and sweep this under the rug? This is totally outrageous and should be reported by the mainstream media as such. Although you may need to wait until h-e-double hockey sticks freezes over before mainstream media outlets with ties to the NFL (think ESPN) give this story the attention it deserves rather than making excuses for the Pats* as to "everyone else does it", etc.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/sports/football/09nfl.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

Specter Raises New Questions on Spying

Article Tools Sponsored By
By GREG BISHOP
Published: March 9, 2008

Senator Arlen Specter said Saturday that he doubted the N.F.L. would ever talk to Matt Walsh, the former New England video assistant who may have information about the Patriots’ spying tactics.

“I’d like to issue a challenge to the commissioner to make public the extensive exchange of correspondence between the league’s lawyers and Walsh’s lawyers,” Specter, a Republican from Pennsylvania, said in a phone interview after reviewing that correspondence.....

“Any objective or accurate reading of the correspondence would show the N.F.L. is trying to discourage Walsh from coming forward,” Specter said. “Especially the requirement in the letter, where the N.F.L. calls for the destruction of whatever Walsh turns over without any provision for me or anyone else to see it.”

Please do not post entire articles. A paragraph or two and the link. Thank you.

The Confessor
03-09-2008, 10:42 AM
Two things.

1. This should definately heat up the debate

2. The mods will be informing you not to post an entire article in 8, 7, 6, 5..............

MR NFLFAN
03-09-2008, 10:59 AM
There was no federal or civil law broken so why does he think he's entitled to view anything? Just more of the same old Grandstanding from the Senator.....
Its too bad he hasn't put as much time and energy into fixing the social securty system. Your tax dollars at work as usual.

Ronnie Bass
03-09-2008, 11:42 AM
All this does is reinforced my opinion that Mr. Goodell is one of the sleaziest and arrogant sports commissioners ever.

Jets81
03-09-2008, 11:47 AM
Two things.

1. This should definately heat up the debate

2. The mods will be informing you not to post an entire article in 8, 7, 6, 5..............

Curious, why are people not supposed to post full articles? Can the site be sued or something?

Ronnie Bass
03-09-2008, 12:02 PM
Curious, why are people not supposed to post full articles? Can the site be sued or something?
Copyright infringement, you can only post a few paragraphs from a story.

As far as getting sued I don't think any author/writer would go to those lengths to try collect civil damages if there are any, but you still need to play within the rules.

MattM
03-09-2008, 02:16 PM
Copyright infringement, you can only post a few paragraphs from a story.

As far as getting sued I don't think any author/writer would go to those lengths to try collect civil damages if there are any, but you still need to play within the rules.

Can I just link and highlight what I want to highlight then? I'll go back and fix my original post.

MattM
03-09-2008, 02:19 PM
There was no federal or civil law broken so why does he think he's entitled to view anything? Just more of the same old Grandstanding from the Senator.....
Its too bad he hasn't put as much time and energy into fixing the social securty system. Your tax dollars at work as usual.

Whatever gets you through the dark of night, knowing your team are a bunch of dirty cheaters shortly to be exposed for all the world to see. But then again, I guess you'll just go back to rooting for the 'Boys, Steelers, G-Men or whoever you used to root for before 2001 like most of the rest of the Pats* "fanbase"......

TomBradyWoot
03-09-2008, 03:00 PM
Whatever gets you through the dark of night, knowing your team are a bunch of dirty cheaters shortly to be exposed for all the world to see. But then again, I guess you'll just go back to rooting for the 'Boys, Steelers, G-Men or whoever you used to root for before 2001 like most of the rest of the Pats* "fanbase"......


Buffalo's going to the super bowl!!!:sidelol::sidelol:

jimmy42jack0
03-09-2008, 03:07 PM
There was no federal or civil law broken so why does he think he's entitled to view anything? Just more of the same old Grandstanding from the Senator.....
Its too bad he hasn't put as much time and energy into fixing the social securty system. Your tax dollars at work as usual.
when the integrity of the league that makes the most money in professional sports is at stake...it deserves attention from the only people who can do something about it...what? you honestly think goodell would police himself? he is the king, the czar, the god of the nfl, he does whatever he wants whenever he wants...and arlen spector is saying...if you allow cheaters(which would cheat millions and millions of dollars from fans) then you, yourself are a cheater and we will call you on it

finswin56
03-09-2008, 03:28 PM
Can I just link and highlight what I want to highlight then? I'll go back and fix my original post.
Yes, you can edit the quoted portion of your original post, but only up to 2-3 paragraphs depending on the length of the article.

The Confessor
03-09-2008, 04:06 PM
Perhaps the absolute best thing to come out of all of this:

The crying and whining and finger pointing by ALL the Patriots fans. They have been thoroughly exposed, and the end of it isnt even in sight yet.
They can troll all the other sites they want, and deflect and whimper and whine, but bottom line. They cheated, they were caught, the commisioner tried to let them off easy (The real story will break when we find out why) and they (Patriots and Goodell) are going to end up paying in the end.

So much for a dynasty, so much for the golden chosen children, and in my book, couldnt have happened to a more deserving/arrogant fanbase.

satz
03-09-2008, 05:02 PM
There was no federal or civil law broken so why does he think he's entitled to view anything? Just more of the same old Grandstanding from the Senator.....
Its too bad he hasn't put as much time and energy into fixing the social securty system. Your tax dollars at work as usual.

Actually, you are wrong .In the state of mass taping a person without hir or her knowledge is a major crime .If this guy has a tape which leads to his conviction under this law he is looking at 10 yrs.

Roman529
03-09-2008, 06:37 PM
So when is Walsh gonna tell us what he knew, and when he knew it. Spill the beans already so Belichick can get a year or two vacation from the NFL.

MattM
03-09-2008, 07:30 PM
Buffalo's going to the super bowl!!!:sidelol::sidelol:

When and if we do, it won't be through cheating--can your team state the same?

MattM
03-09-2008, 07:36 PM
Perhaps the absolute best thing to come out of all of this:

The crying and whining and finger pointing by ALL the Patriots fans. They have been thoroughly exposed, and the end of it isnt even in sight yet.
They can troll all the other sites they want, and deflect and whimper and whine, but bottom line. They cheated, they were caught, the commisioner tried to let them off easy (The real story will break when we find out why) and they (Patriots and Goodell) are going to end up paying in the end.

So much for a dynasty, so much for the golden chosen children, and in my book, couldnt have happened to a more deserving/arrogant fanbase.

Completely agree on that last sentiment. Funny how the folks who were arrogant, obnoxious loudmouths all year long (most of whom wouldn't know Andre Tippett from Andre 3000) suddenly got quiet when the G-Men kicked their arses last month. Also funny how when you go on ESPN.com or SI.com and read comments after the Spygate stories it's all Pats* fans trying to deflect attention from this and stating it's a non-issue, when fans from every other team in the League just want to see what the truth is here. I think deep in their hearts they know what the truth is and they can't handle the taint that's about to be validated on their franchise. If that walkthrough tape exists, the trophy needs to come back, BB (and anyone on his staff who knew) needs to be gone for life and the Pats* need to be punished heavily on the field going forward (i.e., no draft at all for a year or two). If Kraft had anything to do with it or any knowledge his brethren need to push him out as well. Otherwise this League is no better than the WWF. Personally, the more I read, including Specter's comments this weekend, the more I believe that tape does indeed exist and the NFL and Pats* know it. Goodell's also a smart enough man to know that once it comes out, he's gone as well.....

MR NFLFAN
03-09-2008, 07:37 PM
when the integrity of the league that makes the most money in professional sports is at stake...it deserves attention from the only people who can do something about it...what? you honestly think goodell would police himself? he is the king, the czar, the god of the nfl, he does whatever he wants whenever he wants...and arlen spector is saying...if you allow cheaters(which would cheat millions and millions of dollars from fans) then you, yourself are a cheater and we will call you on it

What integrity? Do all of you Fish fans live in a vacuum? I suggest you pull your head out of the vacuum and read a little.

MR NFLFAN
03-09-2008, 07:38 PM
Completely agree on that last sentiment. Funny how the folks who were arrogant, obnoxious loudmouths all year long (most of whom wouldn't know Andre Tippett from Andre 3000) suddenly got quiet when the G-Men kicked their arses last month. Also funny how when you go on ESPN.com or SI.com and read comments after the Spygate stories it's all Pats* fans trying to deflect attention from this and stating it's a non-issue, when fans from every other team in the League just want to see what the truth is here. I think deep in their hearts they know what the truth is and they can't handle the taint that's about to be validated on their franchise. If that walkthrough tape exists, the trophy needs to come back, BB (and anyone on his staff who knew) needs to be gone for life and the Pats* need to be punished heavily on the field going forward (i.e., no draft at all for a year or two). If Kraft had anything to do with it or any knowledge his brethren need to push him out as well. Otherwise this League is no better than the WWF. Personally, the more I read, including Specter's comments this weekend, the more I believe that tape does indeed exist and the NFL and Pats* know it. Goodell's also a smart enough man to know that once it comes out, he's gone as well.....


Becareful you are close to injuring your blow hole.

MattM
03-09-2008, 07:38 PM
What integrity? Do all of you Fish fans live in a vacuum? I suggest you pull your head out of the vacuum and read a little.

That comment, right there, in a nutshell, is what's wrong here. The "everyone does it, no one is pure" argument for rooting out cheating in the League. May as well not even try--"nothing to see here, move along." How pathetic, but no one else is buying it.....

MR NFLFAN
03-09-2008, 08:06 PM
That comment, right there, in a nutshell, is what's wrong here. The "everyone does it, no one is pure" argument for rooting out cheating in the League. May as well not even try--"nothing to see here, move along." How pathetic, but no one else is buying it.....


Your comments are really the nutshell of all of it. All you are concerned with is penalizing the patriots you just don't have nads enough to admit it but you aren't fooling anyone. You couldn't give a rats pooper about the integrity of the league and just like the senator all hide behind the integrity cheer.

Open you eyes and smell the roses there hasn't been integrity in the league for along time. Either you cant read, don't know how to comprehend what you read or are just plain in denial of the facts.

MR NFLFAN
03-09-2008, 08:15 PM
These links are from another post here by Late again. Try reading these and then perhaps you can have an intelligent conversation on the subject void of your usual name calling rants.


Heres your league integrity

2) Denver
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep17.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html)

3) San Francisco
http://www.boulderpublishing.com/spo...a382023a.shtml (http://www.boulderpublishing.com/sports/football/a382023a.shtml)

Also an interesting article written by a former NFL DT concerning cheating in the NFL.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Cheating-in-the-NFL&id=735234

jimmy42jack0
03-09-2008, 08:51 PM
These links are from another post here by Late again. Try reading these and then perhaps you can have an intelligent conversation on the subject void of your usual name calling rants.


Heres your league integrity

2) Denver
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep17.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html)

3) San Francisco
http://www.boulderpublishing.com/spo...a382023a.shtml (http://www.boulderpublishing.com/sports/football/a382023a.shtml)

Also an interesting article written by a former NFL DT concerning cheating in the NFL.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Cheating-in-the-NFL&id=735234
and they should have been picked on by the government too...cheating is cheating is cheating, i dont ****ing care who does it, get them the hell out of the league...

if all the games are rigged "smart guy"




















then whats the ****ing point in watching?:up:

MattM
03-09-2008, 09:58 PM
These links are from another post here by Late again. Try reading these and then perhaps you can have an intelligent conversation on the subject void of your usual name calling rants.


Heres your league integrity

2) Denver
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep17.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html)

3) San Francisco
http://www.boulderpublishing.com/spo...a382023a.shtml (http://www.boulderpublishing.com/sports/football/a382023a.shtml)

Also an interesting article written by a former NFL DT concerning cheating in the NFL.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Cheating-in-the-NFL&id=735234

I did read these--penalize them all if they cheated. How is that possibly an excuse for what the Pats* have done? Only to a NE fan does that make any sense. What, everyone does it, so don't bother to go after anyone who cheats? That makes absolutely zero sense, outside the Boston area, to anyone without a vested interest here in hiding the truth, but that's what it seems to keep coming back to for Pats* fans. Absolutely ridiculous.

I'll ask this straight up, since I never seem to get a straight answer from Pats* fans on this one--what if Walsh produces a SB 36 walkthrough tape? What should be the punishment handed down in your eyes? Let's get this on the table right now so that you can weasel out of this later when and if it happens. You've heard my views on it.

If my team did anything like this I'd be ashamed of it and rip them a new one. For ex., OJ Simpson was a god in my household when I was growing up. That doesn't mean for one minute that I condone anything he's done over the last 15 or so years. I believe that he did what he was accused of and should have gone to jail for a long time, if not for life. I don't let my homerism get in the way of what's right and what the facts are. Funny how all we get out of NE is excuses for either why the Pats* are being persecuted or a set up for why they didn't actually do it when a tape does show up ("Ohh, he must have acted on his own if a tape does exist"--that's horse**** and we all know it) or how "it all didn't really affect the games anyway" (which begs the obvious question of "if it didn't help, then why do it?"). Garbage, all of it.

TomBradyWoot
03-09-2008, 11:41 PM
I did read these--penalize them all if they cheated. How is that possibly an excuse for what the Pats* have done? Only to a NE fan does that make any sense. What, everyone does it, so don't bother to go after anyone who cheats? That makes absolutely zero sense, outside the Boston area, to anyone without a vested interest here in hiding the truth, but that's what it seems to keep coming back to for Pats* fans. Absolutely ridiculous.

I'll ask this straight up, since I never seem to get a straight answer from Pats* fans on this one--what if Walsh produces a SB 36 walkthrough tape? What should be the punishment handed down in your eyes? Let's get this on the table right now so that you can weasel out of this later when and if it happens. You've heard my views on it.

If my team did anything like this I'd be ashamed of it and rip them a new one. For ex., OJ Simpson was a god in my household when I was growing up. That doesn't mean for one minute that I condone anything he's done over the last 15 or so years. I believe that he did what he was accused of and should have gone to jail for a long time, if not for life. I don't let my homerism get in the way of what's right and what the facts are. Funny how all we get out of NE is excuses for either why the Pats* are being persecuted or a set up for why they didn't actually do it when a tape does show up ("Ohh, he must have acted on his own if a tape does exist"--that's horse**** and we all know it) or how "it all didn't really affect the games anyway" (which begs the obvious question of "if it didn't help, then why do it?"). Garbage, all of it.


Man you're so on point it's amazing!! And you're a Bills fan, with the legendary Dick Jauron at head coach...CAN WE TRADE FOR JUST A DAY?????:sidelol::sidelol:

TomBradyWoot
03-10-2008, 12:51 AM
Besides let's all be real about this. No matter what happens with Walsh it's not going to change anyone's opinion.

Most of you already assume the Pats are done and wrong and should have everything stripped. If Walsh produces everything you think he has, then it just proves your opinion. Which really, matters none since you all take it as fact already regardless. If Walsh produces nothing, you'll say that the NFL and the Patriots got the evidence and destroyed it and nothing is accomplished.

So what's the difference if he talks or not?

MR NFLFAN
03-10-2008, 01:17 AM
I did read these--penalize them all if they cheated. How is that possibly an excuse for what the Pats* have done? Only to a NE fan does that make any sense. What, everyone does it, so don't bother to go after anyone who cheats? That makes absolutely zero sense, outside the Boston area, to anyone without a vested interest here in hiding the truth, but that's what it seems to keep coming back to for Pats* fans. Absolutely ridiculous.

I'll ask this straight up, since I never seem to get a straight answer from Pats* fans on this one--what if Walsh produces a SB 36 walkthrough tape? What should be the punishment handed down in your eyes? Let's get this on the table right now so that you can weasel out of this later when and if it happens. You've heard my views on it.

If my team did anything like this I'd be ashamed of it and rip them a new one. For ex., OJ Simpson was a god in my household when I was growing up. That doesn't mean for one minute that I condone anything he's done over the last 15 or so years. I believe that he did what he was accused of and should have gone to jail for a long time, if not for life. I don't let my homerism get in the way of what's right and what the facts are. Funny how all we get out of NE is excuses for either why the Pats* are being persecuted or a set up for why they didn't actually do it when a tape does show up ("Ohh, he must have acted on his own if a tape does exist"--that's horse**** and we all know it) or how "it all didn't really affect the games anyway" (which begs the obvious question of "if it didn't help, then why do it?"). Garbage, all of it.

As to your question about Matt Walsh I can't give you an answer. I'd like to know a bit more back ground on the man but my initial feeling is he's not the most credible man. What he has and how he got it along with who ordered him to do it will all be questions for debate. Questions that there will be no way to prove one way or the other juat as we have now with Clemens and his trainer. He said He said.

Pioli released statements as to why he was fired which his attorney denied but I didn't hear his attorney off up a reason to why he was fired but the fact is he was fired. When Pioli released his statement did you believe him? I'll bet you said he was lying yet you seem willing to accept anything Walsh will say as fact. Why is that? Don't you believe he is just as capable of lying as either belichick or Pioli?



Heres what bothers me about Walsh he has this so called tape or tapes yet he he didn't come forward to the league in sept when the S*** hit the fan with video gate. Instead he goes to ESPN obvoiusly to sell his "evidence" and as part of his get rich scheme he wasts ESPN to offer indeminity.

What was his real position with the organzation and would that position have made him the guy Belichicks orders went to or was he someone who could of had the opportunity to do something such as this on his own?

What was his reason for stealing properity of the NE patriots and the NFL to begin with back in 03?

What is the real reason for his dismissal as an employee of NE Patriots?

I believe the answers to those questions are as important as what he has for tapes.

So the things we can assume just from those few questions are
1)Walsh is a thief (no doubt he is in possession of stolen properity) and
2) he's also an extortionist/blackmailer (his reason to deal with ESPN instead of the league office)

So tell me why it is your belief I should just take him at his word? I know you're going to say that Belichick already admitted to cheating so he can't be taken at his word but doesn't the same hold true for Walch? He's a thief who obviously had some unknown reason to steal NE Properity.


Anyway I don't believe the commissioner will do anything further in this case. Goodell is a smart man and he knows that the mere presence of tapes isn't going to give him irrefutable evidence that anyone on the NE staff ordered the tapes. NE has said it has witnesses (co workers) that told Pioli walsh was secretly recording conversations he had with Walsh. Do you suppose Walsh has any witnesses that can testify they heard belichick order him to tape this walk thru? With out some one to corroborrate his story I don't think there is much the commisioner can do under present policy. So in the end where exactly will this lead us besides nowhere? Its not going to change anything.. you already believe Belichick is guilty as accussed and you're always going to believe that so what is the point in having this trial?

I believe the only interest the commisioner has is to get what ever Walsh has and destroy it and move on from this. Its in his as well as the leagues best interest to do so.

adamprez2003
03-10-2008, 01:26 AM
Actually, you are wrong .In the state of mass taping a person without hir or her knowledge is a major crime .If this guy has a tape which leads to his conviction under this law he is looking at 10 yrs.

Seems pretty severe. Who put that law on the books. Teddy Kennedy?

adamprez2003
03-10-2008, 01:32 AM
These links are from another post here by Late again. Try reading these and then perhaps you can have an intelligent conversation on the subject void of your usual name calling rants.


Heres your league integrity

2) Denver
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep17.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html)

3) San Francisco
http://www.boulderpublishing.com/spo...a382023a.shtml (http://www.boulderpublishing.com/sports/football/a382023a.shtml)

Also an interesting article written by a former NFL DT concerning cheating in the NFL.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Cheating-in-the-NFL&id=735234

Seems integrity was maintained. Both teams were punished and this last paragraph by the former player validates what all of us are demanding, namely justice:

"I feel that teams that cheat need to be punished and punished severely. Besides being fined and penalized with losing draft choices. Your team should automatically lose the game too. Coaches caught cheating should be suspended without pay for the season, or even fired. There has to be a system in place where the consequences of cheating are so severe that teams will not risk getting caught. It is sad that it has to come to this but cheating cannot be tolerated."

MR NFLFAN
03-10-2008, 01:59 AM
Seems integrity was maintained. Both teams were punished and this last paragraph by the former player validates what all of us are demanding, namely justice:

"I feel that teams that cheat need to be punished and punished severely. Besides being fined and penalized with losing draft choices. Your team should automatically lose the game too. Coaches caught cheating should be suspended without pay for the season, or even fired. There has to be a system in place where the consequences of cheating are so severe that teams will not risk getting caught. It is sad that it has to come to this but cheating cannot be tolerated."


Well if you look at what the NFL has applied justice to the 49ers and the Broncos who even got caught twice I'd say the punishment the Patriots received was consistant with exsistng league ploicy.

If the commisioner wants to change the punishment for future violations I don't have a problem with that but the 32 teams should be provided with the new policy ahead of time not after the fact.

Itsdahumidity
03-10-2008, 11:22 AM
Completely agree on that last sentiment. Funny how the folks who were arrogant, obnoxious loudmouths all year long (most of whom wouldn't know Andre Tippett from Andre 3000) suddenly got quiet when the G-Men kicked their arses last month. Also funny how when you go on ESPN.com or SI.com and read comments after the Spygate stories it's all Pats* fans trying to deflect attention from this and stating it's a non-issue, when fans from every other team in the League just want to see what the truth is here. I think deep in their hearts they know what the truth is and they can't handle the taint that's about to be validated on their franchise. If that walkthrough tape exists, the trophy needs to come back, BB (and anyone on his staff who knew) needs to be gone for life and the Pats* need to be punished heavily on the field going forward (i.e., no draft at all for a year or two). If Kraft had anything to do with it or any knowledge his brethren need to push him out as well. Otherwise this League is no better than the WWF. Personally, the more I read, including Specter's comments this weekend, the more I believe that tape does indeed exist and the NFL and Pats* know it. Goodell's also a smart enough man to know that once it comes out, he's gone as well.....

ouch!

shula_guy
03-10-2008, 01:19 PM
MRNFL: The problem with your argument about Walsh's chacter is it is a deflection of the real issue. Reguardless of his intentions or how he came about the tape. The question is, is the tape authentic? I understand your questions about Walsh and I even agree with you about them but that does not relieve the Patriots from explaining those tapes.

In response to your comments about Goddell not being stupid enough to incriminate the leauge over he said, she said type of accusations.......... The problem with that is this is not being played out in a criminal courtroom, this is being tried in the court of public oppinion. The rules you are trying to evoke to protect your team are only making the situation look worse for them.

You can argue that your team is being singled out and picked on because the rest of America is envious of the greatness that you have achieved up there all you want.

unluckyluciano
03-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Open you eyes and smell the roses there hasn't been integrity in the league for along time. Either you cant read, don't know how to comprehend what you read or are just plain in denial of the facts.
And your point is? Let me tell you what I am asking you in a nutshell. How does what other teams do effect the patriots and their current situation?

satz
03-10-2008, 01:48 PM
MRNFL: The problem with your argument about Walsh's chacter is it is a deflection of the real issue. Reguardless of his intentions or how he came about the tape. The question is, is the tape authentic? I understand your questions about Walsh and I even agree with you about them but that does not relieve the Patriots from explaining those tapes.

In response to your comments about Goddell not being stupid enough to incriminate the leauge over he said, she said type of accusations.......... The problem with that is this is not being played out in a criminal courtroom, this is being tried in the court of public oppinion. The rules you are trying to evoke to protect your team are only making the situation look worse for them.

You can argue that your team is being singled out and picked on because the rest of America is envious of the greatness that you have achieved up there all you want.

All this assumed that he has a tape even though remember he has never said so.It was a rumour from boston hearld so if the tape does not exist then what happens.?

Mike13
03-10-2008, 01:55 PM
Well if no evidence is provided then life will go on. ^

It doenst mean they Patriots are no longer tainted however, as Bellicheat admitted to taping since 2000.

MR NFLFAN
03-10-2008, 03:34 PM
MRNFL: The problem with your argument about Walsh's chacter is it is a deflection of the real issue. Reguardless of his intentions or how he came about the tape. The question is, is the tape authentic? I understand your questions about Walsh and I even agree with you about them but that does not relieve the Patriots from explaining those tapes.

I want the truth as much as the rest of the fans but If I'm in a situation where its one mans word vs anothers you bet each of those individuals credibility are at issue. Call it what you want (i.e. defelction..whatever) but to me if you have shown a past history of deceit and lies I'm not going to just take you at your word. If you want to be believed you'll have to provide someone that can corroborate your story.
I also believe his intentions and how he came to posses the so-called alleged tape/tapes could directly tie into their authenticity. Why do you think the NFL has spent the last 30 days doing a back ground check on Mr walsh? Does that tell you they have confidence that he's a truthful man, because it doesn't make me feel that way.


In response to your comments about Goddell not being stupid enough to incriminate the leauge over he said, she said type of accusations.......... The problem with that is this is not being played out in a criminal courtroom, this is being tried in the court of public oppinion. The rules you are trying to evoke to protect your team are only making the situation look worse for them.

So anyone who accuses you of something is to believed as long as its not in a courtroom? I think you are wrong about this being tried in the court of public opinion and find your assertions that therefore it doesn't require any burdon of proof as a very simplistic view. Anything less than a reasonable burdon of proof applied to Walsh could very well make this a courtroom case.[/quote]


You cann argue that your team is being singled out and picked on because the rest of America is envious of the greatness that you have achieved up there all you want.

Perhaps thats your feeling but I haven't ever said that so please don't try and put words in my mouth. You do bring up an interesting point but thats a different argument.


Heres a long article published today by the Boston globe which by the way was the same paper who first printed the walk thru allegations. It doesn't make me feel like Walsh is this great stand up guy which should be taken merely at his word.



To some, a vindictive videotaper (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/03/10/to_some_a_vindictive_videotaper)
Patriots ex-aide and accuser Walsh portrayed as calculating, bitter

MR NFLFAN
03-10-2008, 03:38 PM
All this assumed that he has a tape even though remember he has never said so.It was a rumour from boston hearld so if the tape does not exist then what happens.?

Well then people will run around looking for other stuff. Maybe they can get a tape of Belichick kicking puppies or something like that. We all know nobody else has ever kicked a puppy.

MR NFLFAN
03-10-2008, 03:43 PM
And your point is? Let me tell you what I am asking you in a nutshell. How does what other teams do effect the patriots and their current situation?


Perhaps you had better go back and read this thread from the start. That way you can get my past replies to a specfic post in the proper context that they were given.

late again
03-10-2008, 05:30 PM
MRNFL: The problem with your argument about Walsh's chacter is it is a deflection of the real issue. Reguardless of his intentions or how he came about the tape. The question is, is the tape authentic? I understand your questions about Walsh and I even agree with you about them but that does not relieve the Patriots from explaining those tapes.

In response to your comments about Goddell not being stupid enough to incriminate the leauge over he said, she said type of accusations.......... The problem with that is this is not being played out in a criminal courtroom, this is being tried in the court of public oppinion. The rules you are trying to evoke to protect your team are only making the situation look worse for them.

You can argue that your team is being singled out and picked on because the rest of America is envious of the greatness that you have achieved up there all you want.
I've got to be honest with you. The few Pats fans that continue to post here are actually not of that mindset. In fact they've agreed 100% that what Belichick did was wrong. What more can a fan do?

Itsdahumidity
03-10-2008, 05:51 PM
I've got to be honest with you. The few Pats fans that continue to post here are actually not of that mindset. In fact they've agreed 100% that what Belichick did was wrong. What more can a fan do?

The few pats fans that continue to post here are whistling past the cemetery. They fail to realize that this is probably the worst thing that can happen to a team you follow. It's not about finally admitting what the cheater did was wrong and brushing it off demanding everyone else to move on. The taint is forever. The ish you pats fans spewed through the years boomeranged.

late again
03-10-2008, 07:37 PM
The few pats fans that continue to post here are whistling past the cemetery. They fail to realize that this is probably the worst thing that can happen to a team you follow. It's not about finally admitting what the cheater did was wrong and brushing it off demanding everyone else to move on. The taint is forever. The ish you pats fans spewed through the years boomeranged.

This is actually funny because I'm not a Pats fan. I'm a Dolphins fan.
I know what you're saying about the crap that some Pats fans dumped on everyone else. I say some though. Because it's not the entire fanbase. I have a long time friend who I met on college who is a life long Pats fan. All the give and take between us over the years has been in fun. My niece's husband is another. He's a great guy and we get along just fine.
As to posters on this board; I've noticed that the Pats fans who came here just to talk smack have long since departed. After they lost the SB they checked out. The few that have stuck around are just wanting to talk football. After all is said and done, what is it you want a fan to say? After a guy says, yeah they cheated; it's ugly and it was wrong, there's really nothing left to say beyond that.
Ultimately, it will be yesterday's news. No one still talks about the Broncos and no one still talks about the 49ers.
In fact an observation of my own is just how quiet Steve Young has been. This is a guy who loves to hear himself talk. But he knows that his SB ring has dirt on it as well.
As for me, I don't really get anything out of belaboring a point to the extent that some do. It happened. The entire franchise and fanbase is embarrassed by it. Once the Walsh question mark is resolved; for me anyway it'll be time to move on.

MattM
03-10-2008, 10:31 PM
I want the truth as much as the rest of the fans but If I'm in a situation where its one mans word vs anothers you bet each of those individuals credibility are at issue. Call it what you want (i.e. defelction..whatever) but to me if you have shown a past history of deceit and lies I'm not going to just take you at your word. If you want to be believed you'll have to provide someone that can corroborate your story.
I also believe his intentions and how he came to posses the so-called alleged tape/tapes could directly tie into their authenticity. Why do you think the NFL has spent the last 30 days doing a back ground check on Mr walsh? Does that tell you they have confidence that he's a truthful man, because it doesn't make me feel that way.



So anyone who accuses you of something is to believed as long as its not in a courtroom? I think you are wrong about this being tried in the court of public opinion and find your assertions that therefore it doesn't require any burdon of proof as a very simplistic view. Anything less than a reasonable burdon of proof applied to Walsh could very well make this a courtroom case.



Perhaps thats your feeling but I haven't ever said that so please don't try and put words in my mouth. You do bring up an interesting point but thats a different argument.


Heres a long article published today by the Boston globe which by the way was the same paper who first printed the walk thru allegations. It doesn't make me feel like Walsh is this great stand up guy which should be taken merely at his word.



To some, a vindictive videotaper (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/03/10/to_some_a_vindictive_videotaper)
Patriots ex-aide and accuser Walsh portrayed as calculating, bitter[/QUOTE]

Actually, no, it was the Boston Herald's John Tomase who reported the walk through, but don't let the facts get in the way of the story--the Globe has effectively been Kraft's mouthpiece through it's writer Reiss (as in his "Reiss's Pieces" columns), so that explains this "deep investigative journalism" which Mike Florio of PFT called (tongue in cheek I suspect) "mildly pro-Patriot". What are they afraid of that they're smearing this guy so?

In terms of some of your other arguments re: why did Walsh go to ESPN to try to sell his story. Fact is, he didn't. Reporters came to him last fall, but he gave them nothing for attribution until late Jan., although he apparently hinted at what he had even then. If he'd wanted to kick the Pats* in the nads in the fall he could easily have done that. Neither I nor anyone else is sure why he's coming forward now, althought perhaps it's because he's been emboldened by Specter or even because he's sick of seeing people he knows cheat prosper--never too late to develop a conscience. In terms of it all being a "he said, she said" if he has a SB walkthrough tape, dream on, pal. If that happens, it's over for BB and the Pats*--no one in their right mind would believe that this guy did this on his own no matter how much they're trying to spin that story right now. In that case it's "game over, man"......

MR NFLFAN
03-11-2008, 12:15 AM
Actually, no, it was the Boston Herald's John Tomase who reported the walk through, but don't let the facts get in the way of the story--the Globe has effectively been Kraft's mouthpiece through it's writer Reiss (as in his "Reiss's Pieces" columns), so that explains this "deep investigative journalism" which Mike Florio of PFT called (tongue in cheek I suspect) "mildly pro-Patriot". What are they afraid of that they're smearing this guy so?

In terms of some of your other arguments re: why did Walsh go to ESPN to try to sell his story. Fact is, he didn't. Reporters came to him last fall, but he gave them nothing for attribution until late Jan., although he apparently hinted at what he had even then. If he'd wanted to kick the Pats* in the nads in the fall he could easily have done that. Neither I nor anyone else is sure why he's coming forward now, althought perhaps it's because he's been emboldened by Specter or even because he's sick of seeing people he knows cheat prosper--never too late to develop a conscience. In terms of it all being a "he said, she said" if he has a SB walkthrough tape, dream on, pal. If that happens, it's over for BB and the Pats*--no one in their right mind would believe that this guy did this on his own no matter how much they're trying to spin that story right now. In that case it's "game over, man"......

So I see the League and Patriots have now added the globe to the great conspiracy. LOL So the league got together with the pats and the globe who then went out and found 30 co-conspirators all of which new walsh just to do the league a favor. Now it all makes sense, thanks for clearing that up.

:up:

I view Walsh as a man with an ax to grind.
We've seen NOTHING from Walsh and in fact there is not 1 quote driectly from walsh himself stating specifially he has a walk thru tape. It's all been reported thru anonymous sources yet anything thing you've read is the truth, well anything bad that is. You've already made up your mind before any actual evidence if there is any has been brought forward and If something is written that isn't favorable to your point of view well then you use the "its part of a "conspiracy" insinuation to explain it off.

And you talk about the globe spinning a story.

:sidelol:

Phinfan31
03-11-2008, 04:54 AM
So I see the League and Patriots have now added the globe to the great conspiracy. LOL So the league got together with the pats and the globe who then went out and found 30 co-conspirators all of which new walsh just to do the league a favor. Now it all makes sense, thanks for clearing that up.

:up:

I view Walsh as a man with an ax to grind.
We've seen NOTHING from Walsh and in fact there is not 1 quote driectly from walsh himself stating specifially he has a walk thru tape. It's all been reported thru anonymous sources yet anything thing you've read is the truth, well anything bad that is. You've already made up your mind before any actual evidence if there is any has been brought forward and If something is written that isn't favorable to your point of view well then you use the "its part of a "conspiracy" insinuation to explain it off.

And you talk about the globe spinning a story.

:sidelol:


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: at you and your team.

Walsh and his lawyer and the NFL's lawyer are about to settle this once and for all. Once he is legally protected from the Pats (hes going against the most powerful organization in the most powerful sport in the world btw other than the NY Yankees in MLB) ...the truth will out.

NFL Network reported everything is imminent. Everything will unfold in the next month or 2 and you can say goodbye to your so called "dynasty"

MattM
03-11-2008, 06:50 AM
So I see the League and Patriots have now added the globe to the great conspiracy. LOL So the league got together with the pats and the globe who then went out and found 30 co-conspirators all of which new walsh just to do the league a favor. Now it all makes sense, thanks for clearing that up.

:up:

I view Walsh as a man with an ax to grind.
We've seen NOTHING from Walsh and in fact there is not 1 quote driectly from walsh himself stating specifially he has a walk thru tape. It's all been reported thru anonymous sources yet anything thing you've read is the truth, well anything bad that is. You've already made up your mind before any actual evidence if there is any has been brought forward and If something is written that isn't favorable to your point of view well then you use the "its part of a "conspiracy" insinuation to explain it off.

And you talk about the globe spinning a story.

:sidelol:

His lawyer has said he has tapes--don't believe me, go look it up. Was in all the stories about 2 weeks ago. Whether it's the SB tape, we'll see. Whoa be you and the Pats* if he does as noted above.

On the press, for anyone following the story it's no secret that the Globe has been carrying the Pats* water on this via Mr. Reiss. for ex., he's the guy they gave the exclusive BB interview with a couple of weeks ago--you only do that to a friendly media outlet (think George Bush and Fox News if you will.) One that doesn't ask pesky questions (like the Globe didn't in that case).

Itsdahumidity
03-11-2008, 10:41 AM
This is actually funny because I'm not a Pats fan. I'm a Dolphins fan.
I know what you're saying about the crap that some Pats fans dumped on everyone else. I say some though. Because it's not the entire fanbase. I have a long time friend who I met on college who is a life long Pats fan. All the give and take between us over the years has been in fun. My niece's husband is another. He's a great guy and we get along just fine.
As to posters on this board; I've noticed that the Pats fans who came here just to talk smack have long since departed. After they lost the SB they checked out. The few that have stuck around are just wanting to talk football. After all is said and done, what is it you want a fan to say? After a guy says, yeah they cheated; it's ugly and it was wrong, there's really nothing left to say beyond that.
Ultimately, it will be yesterday's news. No one still talks about the Broncos and no one still talks about the 49ers.
In fact an observation of my own is just how quiet Steve Young has been. This is a guy who loves to hear himself talk. But he knows that his SB ring has dirt on it as well.
As for me, I don't really get anything out of belaboring a point to the extent that some do. It happened. The entire franchise and fanbase is embarrassed by it. Once the Walsh question mark is resolved; for me anyway it'll be time to move on.

late again, I wasn't calling you a pats fan I just quoted your post to make counterpoints. My "you pats fans spewed" quote was directed towards them.

I hear what you're saying about going back and forth with life long friends because we all go through that. It's genuine and sometimes warranted.

But at the height of their so-called dynasty, message board pats fans developed an elitist attitude and let us have it year in year out. Yeah, many have disappeared but some remain and you know who you are.
So being a sports fan having that competitive nature, every chance I get I'm going to remind them of the 2001 to 2007 seasons.

MR NFLFAN
03-11-2008, 01:04 PM
His lawyer has said he has tapes--don't believe me, go look it up. Was in all the stories about 2 weeks ago. Whether it's the SB tape, we'll see. Whoa be you and the Pats* if he does as noted above.

Even if you want to use his lawyer even he hasn't stated Walsh possesed a Rams walk thru tape. I have "tapes"..Tapes of past NE games, tapes of Nascar races..etc.
If you go back and read any article with DIRECT quotes from walsh he dances around answering anything and is mostly concerned with himself and whats in it for him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3226465
At one point, when the discussion turned to potential evidence, he said, "I'd use it if they came after me. The last thing I need is for people to make a case against me."

During an afternoon tour of the golf course where he works, Walsh stopped and pointed out Black Rock, a cliff where a nightly ritual features a lone figure lifting a torch to salute the sky before plunging into the dark waters, home to the occasional small shark. He used that scene as an analogy to the risk he'd face coming forward with his story.

"That guy is taking a chance jumping into shark-infested waters," Walsh said, motioning toward the cliff. "There'd be nothing to come out of it for me. Be a helluva risk."

He said he does not feel an ethical urge to do what some might perceive as the right thing, to help set the record straight -- either by exposing the Patriots or by depicting them as simply doing what every other team does.

"I'll be honest with you: I can't really be guilted into anything," he said. "Maybe after this whole thing, you don't think I have a conscience because of the people I was exposed to and what they had me doing.

"Really, I just [have] no incentive to really talk to anybody, no reason to do it. For me, personally, I haven't really been able to see the gain in doing it."

Walsh said that during his tenure in New England, no taping was done without (jimmy) Dee's knowledge.

And then this from the globes piece yesterday
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/03/10/to_some_a_vindictive_videotaper/?page=2

According to individuals familiar with the inquiry by the Patriots, every employee who could have been involved in taping the Rams, including video director Jimmy Dee, assured chief executive Robert Kraft that no one, including Walsh, did so unless the person acted without authorization, used his own video equipment, and never mentioned or showed the recording to anyone else in the organization.

A league source said NFL investigators found two practical reasons why the Patriots could not have used their video equipment to tape the Rams the day before the Super Bowl. First, the team's video crew did not take any battery packs to the Superdome because they planned only to set up the equipment, not to use it. Second, the league confirmed there was no electrical power available at the camera positions in the stadium.

Walsh and his lawyer have not publicly addressed the allegation about the Patriots taping the Rams, but the lawyer has informed the NFL that Walsh possesses materials, presumably videotapes, from his time with the team.








On the press, for anyone following the story it's no secret that the Globe has been carrying the Pats* water on this via Mr. Reiss. for ex., he's the guy they gave the exclusive BB interview with a couple of weeks ago--you only do that to a friendly media outlet (think George Bush and Fox News if you will.) One that doesn't ask pesky questions (like the Globe didn't in that case).

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting? Are you trying to say that the Globe fabricated information printed in their own investigation of Matt Walsh?
You do realize that even if a local paper was team friendly that printing lies would surely leave the globe open for a law suit against the paper?

MattM
03-11-2008, 10:50 PM
Even if you want to use his lawyer even he hasn't stated Walsh possesed a Rams walk thru tape. I have "tapes"..Tapes of past NE games, tapes of Nascar races..etc.
If you go back and read any article with DIRECT quotes from walsh he dances around answering anything and is mostly concerned with himself and whats in it for him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3226465
At one point, when the discussion turned to potential evidence, he said, "I'd use it if they came after me. The last thing I need is for people to make a case against me."

During an afternoon tour of the golf course where he works, Walsh stopped and pointed out Black Rock, a cliff where a nightly ritual features a lone figure lifting a torch to salute the sky before plunging into the dark waters, home to the occasional small shark. He used that scene as an analogy to the risk he'd face coming forward with his story.

"That guy is taking a chance jumping into shark-infested waters," Walsh said, motioning toward the cliff. "There'd be nothing to come out of it for me. Be a helluva risk."

He said he does not feel an ethical urge to do what some might perceive as the right thing, to help set the record straight -- either by exposing the Patriots or by depicting them as simply doing what every other team does.

"I'll be honest with you: I can't really be guilted into anything," he said. "Maybe after this whole thing, you don't think I have a conscience because of the people I was exposed to and what they had me doing.

"Really, I just [have] no incentive to really talk to anybody, no reason to do it. For me, personally, I haven't really been able to see the gain in doing it."

Walsh said that during his tenure in New England, no taping was done without (jimmy) Dee's knowledge.

And then this from the globes piece yesterday
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/03/10/to_some_a_vindictive_videotaper/?page=2

According to individuals familiar with the inquiry by the Patriots, every employee who could have been involved in taping the Rams, including video director Jimmy Dee, assured chief executive Robert Kraft that no one, including Walsh, did so unless the person acted without authorization, used his own video equipment, and never mentioned or showed the recording to anyone else in the organization.

A league source said NFL investigators found two practical reasons why the Patriots could not have used their video equipment to tape the Rams the day before the Super Bowl. First, the team's video crew did not take any battery packs to the Superdome because they planned only to set up the equipment, not to use it. Second, the league confirmed there was no electrical power available at the camera positions in the stadium.

Walsh and his lawyer have not publicly addressed the allegation about the Patriots taping the Rams, but the lawyer has informed the NFL that Walsh possesses materials, presumably videotapes, from his time with the team.









I'm not really sure what you're suggesting? Are you trying to say that the Globe fabricated information printed in their own investigation of Matt Walsh?
You do realize that even if a local paper was team friendly that printing lies would surely leave the globe open for a law suit against the paper?

No, I'm saying that there's definitely a way to spin a story how you'd like it to read (ie., propaganda) and that's what a lot of the Globe article read like--just look at the choice of adjectives and emphasis in the story, for ex. You can selectively state or emphasize some facts over others. In terms of legal action, there are definitely ways you can couch that--using words like "allegedly" can carry you far in that regard, never mind who it is doing the "alleging."

PR firms get paid big bucks to do just this--apparently some journalists may be willing to take some cash on the side as well.....

On some of the other points you've selectively highlighted (see "propaganda" discussion above), what else do you expect now that the Pats* have taken their time to get their stories all straight--after all, if those involved don't hang together, they'll all hang separately, right? Not a surprise that the folks Walsh is accusing of being involved are now denying any responsibility. It's also clear as day that over the last two weeks (again, after taking a couple of weeks to get their stories and strategy straight--notice, no immediate denials in early Feb.) the strategy has become "let's paint this guy as a "lone gunman", so if he has anything we can deny we were involved", which will be a truly laughable defense if it comes to that. That doesn't really fly in terms of the likelihood of a camera guy doing this on his own. Check out this Peter King (usually a Pats* knob gobbler since he grew up rooting for them, but surprisingly unforgiving on Spygate) piece on that point:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/02/26/ryan/index.html

It's towards the back.

MR NFLFAN
03-12-2008, 01:19 AM
No, I'm saying that there's definitely a way to spin a story how you'd like it to read (ie., propaganda) and that's what a lot of the Globe article read like--just look at the choice of adjectives and emphasis in the story, for ex. You can selectively state or emphasize some facts over others. In terms of legal action, there are definitely ways you can couch that--using words like "allegedly" can carry you far in that regard, never mind who it is doing the "alleging."

PR firms get paid big bucks to do just this--apparently some journalists may be willing to take some cash on the side as well.....

On some of the other points you've selectively highlighted (see "propaganda" discussion above), what else do you expect now that the Pats* have taken their time to get their stories all straight--after all, if those involved don't hang together, they'll all hang separately, right? Not a surprise that the folks Walsh is accusing of being involved are now denying any responsibility. It's also clear as day that over the last two weeks (again, after taking a couple of weeks to get their stories and strategy straight--notice, no immediate denials in early Feb.) the strategy has become "let's paint this guy as a "lone gunman", so if he has anything we can deny we were involved", which will be a truly laughable defense if it comes to that. That doesn't really fly in terms of the likelihood of a camera guy doing this on his own. Check out this Peter King (usually a Pats* knob gobbler since he grew up rooting for them, but surprisingly unforgiving on Spygate) piece on that point:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/02/26/ryan/index.html

It's towards the back.


So the conspiracy theory lives on. Everyone is lying or is "taking some cash on the side" including all 30 some odd people interviewed? Now that is laughable indeed. I hope you're not laying awake at night to dream this theory up.

Can you even admit that Walsh is a thief or do think these materials he allegedly has just kind of fell into his nap sack by accident?

If he's this believable choir boy just trying to come clean and set the record straight I'd like to hear his reason for stealing these alleged materials back 5 years ago? These actions certainly paint the man as some kind of extortionist/blackmailer because I can't think of any other good reason he would need anything like that.

If you subscribe to this massive conspiracy and cover up which you continually emphsize in your post I'd think any reasonable person would also have to flip the coin and ask those questions also.

Its a fact he was fired from the Patiots and we have heard from Pioli as to why he was which Walshs attorney denied. If he wasn't fired for secretly taping conversations he had with Pioli then what was the real reason he was fired? Ever hear an explaination offered by either walsh or his attorney? Why? What are they hiding? I mean if he was late too often or missed a lot of time or even couldn't run a video camera I don't see those as something to hide.

In everything I've read from you, you try and paint everything said by either the patriots org or the local papers or even ex coworkers of walshs as either lies, propaganda or bought and paid for stories. If all these people are willing to do these acts of cover up and propaganda for money why is it so hard for you to admit its also possible that is what walsh was after in all this. Perhaps this is why we haven't seen anything yet? Perhaps he doesn't really have anything the league doesn't already know about but figured he could spin it like he does and make a quick buck by selling his silence? I don't see that as any more of a stretch than your huge conspiracy theory.

After all of this may God help Matt Walsh if he has no Walk thru tape.

jimmy42jack0
03-12-2008, 03:08 AM
so ok mr nflfan...say that walsh does have a tape...and its just as disasterous as possible for the organization...what do you think would be a fair punishment for everyone involved including the commissioner...so basically...what do you think the end result will be in say 3 or 4 months time

MR NFLFAN
03-12-2008, 05:53 AM
so ok mr nflfan...say that walsh does have a tape...and its just as disasterous as possible for the organization...what do you think would be a fair punishment for everyone involved including the commissioner...so basically...what do you think the end result will be in say 3 or 4 months time


It's not up to me to decide what a fair punishment should or would be or am I concerned about it. Whatever happens, happens and the team will have to deal with it.
I haven't ever posted that I felt the original punishment received was unfair or unjust and should this turn out bad for NE I'm not going to then either. What I am concerned about is that the commisioner will use a reasable burden of proof before making a ruling that will have severe consquences against ANY team. I hope and feel that commisioner Goodell will do just that.

I know it won't matter to many fans what the commisioners finding is, even if nothing new comes out in their mind it will just be part of another conspiracy.

3 or 4 months time who knows what the end result will be but i do know what I'd like to see. I'd like to see the league crack down on all the little BS ways of cheating that have gone on forever in the league. NE was caught stealing signals with video tape other have cheated in other ways but in my mind cheating is cheating and it doesn't belong in the NFL PERIOD. Perhaps if this is what it takes to finally clean up the league then it will not all be for nothing.

I think Belichick made a mistake and feel the commisioner made an even bigger one but I understand his reasoning and i don't believe he covered anything up. I think the fox airing of the tape is what really prompted him to destroy what the Patriots gave him not that their was evidence of other types of cheating. I don't believe he was doing anything more than any other CEO would have done he was trying to practice damage control for his business. The league has dealt with many different cheating stunts in the past but they have done it in house and I believe that Goodell wanted to handle this the same way.

Finally I think Arlen Specter got involved in this for his own special interest and that interest wasn't fair and honest games. A Senator and attorney with ties to comcast as deep as Specter has should have turned this over to someone else on the senate judicary committee and stepped back because the man obviously has a conflict of interest which was brought to his attention and he adamently denies. Either way it would have shown us fans a commitment only to fair and honest games if he had. It really has turned into a witch hunt and a media circus and hopefully what will eventually come out of all this is truely fair and honest games league wide.

Thats the best I can do for now. I'm not declaring anyone innocent or guilty or laying out a sentence until I see some further evidence. For now I'm going to keep the horse ahead of the cart.

shula_guy
03-12-2008, 11:03 AM
All this assumed that he has a tape even though remember he has never said so.It was a rumour from boston hearld so if the tape does not exist then what happens.?

If Walsh does not have legitimate evidence to turn over then he should face criminal charges.




I want the truth as much as the rest of the fans but If I'm in a situation where its one mans word vs anothers you bet each of those individuals credibility are at issue. Call it what you want (i.e. defelction..whatever) but to me if you have shown a past history of deceit and lies I'm not going to just take you at your word. If you want to be believed you'll have to provide someone that can corroborate your story.
I also believe his intentions and how he came to posses the so-called alleged tape/tapes could directly tie into their authenticity. Why do you think the NFL has spent the last 30 days doing a back ground check on Mr walsh? Does that tell you they have confidence that he's a truthful man, because it doesn't make me feel that way.

First he does not need someone who can corrobate his story, he needs to be able to authenticate his materials that he is presenting. He will never be able to corroborate his story unless he secretly taped a conversation which may be the case btw.

The NFL has investigated him looking for dirt to discredit him. It really has nothing to do about the accusations being made it's about saving face for them.

I'll Finish this post later!!!!!

shula_guy
03-12-2008, 11:25 AM
So anyone who accuses you of something is to believed as long as its not in a courtroom? I think you are wrong about this being tried in the court of public opinion and find your assertions that therefore it doesn't require any burdon of proof as a very simplistic view. Anything less than a reasonable burdon of proof applied to Walsh could very well make this a courtroom case.

That is not what I was saying at all. What I am saying is that unlike in a courtroom, where someone is considered innocent until proven guilty. It is not the case in public oppinion, Barry Bonds is a good example of this. He has not failed any steroids test yet public oppinion has condemned him through his actions and responses or lack of respones to questions he has been asked. Noone can prove he is guilty but there is an asterisk on his ball in the hall of fame.

MR NFLFAN
03-12-2008, 02:58 PM
If Walsh does not have legitimate evidence to turn over then he should face criminal charges.





First he does not need someone who can corrobate his story, he needs to be able to authenticate his materials that he is presenting. He will never be able to corroborate his story unless he secretly taped a conversation which may be the case btw.

The NFL has investigated him looking for dirt to discredit him. It really has nothing to do about the accusations being made it's about saving face for them.

I'll Finish this post later!!!!!

I'm not sure what you mean by authenticating his materials but I think its going to take more than that.

Think about this.
We know that Walsh had access to video equiptment and the proper access credentials to the super dome. So if he wanted to make a tape on his own for whatever reason he certainly had the means to do so. I'm not saying he did merely acknowledging that fact that it would have been possible.

Showing up with a tape of the rams walk thru doesn't authenticate that Belichick ordered the taping or even knew about a taping.
Walsh wasn't in a director position so if Belichick indeed did order the taping someone above Walsh would have known and then handed the assignment downward.
So What happens if he does produce a walk thru tape and Walsh's boss the director of the video tape dept states he was never ordered to tape a walk thru nor did he authorized walsh to tape a walk thru? I'd like to know what you feel the burden of authentication is?
Weather the tape is a tape of the rams walk thru doesn't answer the question of who authorized the video taping, isn't that what were after?

I ask this question because the director of the video dept has already stated he was never asked by belichick or anyone one else to tape the rams walk thru and that he never asked Walsh or anyone else to tape a walk thru.
Were not even sure there is a tape of a walk thru as Walsh has never stated specifically what his material is.

Authentication is not going to be as easy as walking in there with a tape of a walk thru IMO. That is why I prefer to use the term a reasonable burden of proof, unlike a court of law which would require proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I also disagree with your assessment that because this isn't a court of law that one should not be considered innocent until proven guilty. If you want to accuse me of something then the burden is up to you to prove your accusations.

shula_guy
03-14-2008, 03:11 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by authenticating his materials but I think its going to take more than that.

Think about this.
We know that Walsh had access to video equiptment and the proper access credentials to the super dome. So if he wanted to make a tape on his own for whatever reason he certainly had the means to do so. I'm not saying he did merely acknowledging that fact that it would have been possible.

Showing up with a tape of the rams walk thru doesn't authenticate that Belichick ordered the taping or even knew about a taping.
Walsh wasn't in a director position so if Belichick indeed did order the taping someone above Walsh would have known and then handed the assignment downward.
So What happens if he does produce a walk thru tape and Walsh's boss the director of the video tape dept states he was never ordered to tape a walk thru nor did he authorized walsh to tape a walk thru? I'd like to know what you feel the burden of authentication is?
Weather the tape is a tape of the rams walk thru doesn't answer the question of who authorized the video taping, isn't that what were after?

I ask this question because the director of the video dept has already stated he was never asked by belichick or anyone one else to tape the rams walk thru and that he never asked Walsh or anyone else to tape a walk thru.
Were not even sure there is a tape of a walk thru as Walsh has never stated specifically what his material is.

Authentication is not going to be as easy as walking in there with a tape of a walk thru IMO. That is why I prefer to use the term a reasonable burden of proof, unlike a court of law which would require proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I also disagree with your assessment that because this isn't a court of law that one should not be considered innocent until proven guilty. If you want to accuse me of something then the burden is up to you to prove your accusations.


I agree with your entire post here. I think it is a little slippery to say if a genuine tape is produced that it wasnt ordered by someone in charge but I do agree you must be able to prove that it was. That is a very tricky thing and you bring up a solid point and I do agree to the term "reasonable proof"

I did not intend to imply that people are considered guily without just cause. What I was trying to say is if it appears like someone is guilty of something, generally public oppinion will fall that way, weather or not it has seal tight evidence to back it up. Is it fair? no! But that is how it is with stuff like this. The fact that evidence was deystroyed will be viewed by many as a guilty plea by the commineer unless he can provide a very convincing explination which he has not done so far.

MR NFLFAN
03-14-2008, 05:28 PM
I agree with your entire post here. I think it is a little slippery to say if a genuine tape is produced that it wasnt ordered by someone in charge but I do agree you must be able to prove that it was. That is a very tricky thing and you bring up a solid point and I do agree to the term "reasonable proof"


I did not intend to imply that people are considered guily without just cause. What I was trying to say is if it appears like someone is guilty of something, generally public oppinion will fall that way, weather or not it has seal tight evidence to back it up. Is it fair? no! But that is how it is with stuff like this. The fact that evidence was deystroyed will be viewed by many as a guilty plea by the commineer unless he can provide a very convincing explination which he has not done so far.

Good post. shula_guy

It's unfortunate that the commisioner destroyed the tapes at least before some independant party verified their contents. I'm sure in hind sight if he had to do it all over again he'd have had that evidence verified. I didn't expect him to make the tapes public but at the very least he should have made a public statement after all the evidence he had asked for had been turned over with a way to verify he was indeed being truthful. He made a mistake plain and simple on this which leads the public to hold a cloud of doubt over him and his intentions. I'm sure the commisioner wasn't the only one to view those tapes by most likely they were viewed by another member of the league office so it wouldn't help the commisioner's case even if he produced a witness because that person has obvious conflicts of interest.


At this point everyone has their opinion as to what was on those destroyed tapes with Senator Specter fanning the flames of a cover up when the man has not one shred of evidence that a cover up occured. Maybe he doesn't agree with Goodells reasoning for destroying the tapes but then again Senator specter isn't trying to run the big business known as the NFL and as such I can't think of any other billion dollar business that airs their dirty laundry in public.

I feel the public thru the media has been played like a violin by the senator who has an obvious conflict of interest in the matter too boot. With his deep ties to comcast and the well known legal feud between comcast and the NFL he should have turned this matter over to another member of the senate judiciary committee for the sake of ethics. As long as those ties exsist with the Senator and cable giant comcast it will raise just as many questions about senator Specters intentions also. Is he really after fair and honest games or just trying to position himself to strike a deal on behalf of one of his largest campaign contributors? It all stinks in my mind and I hope that there is someway for everything to come out in this which leads to a fair a just ruling one way or the other so we can put it rest.

GreenMts
03-14-2008, 10:42 PM
There was no federal or civil law broken so why does he think he's entitled to view anything? Just more of the same old Grandstanding from the Senator.....
Its too bad he hasn't put as much time and energy into fixing the social securty system. Your tax dollars at work as usual.


It's his business b/c of the NFLs antitrust exemption - you heard of that, right?

MR NFLFAN
03-15-2008, 12:19 AM
It's his business b/c of the NFLs antitrust exemption - you heard of that, right?

Well many would disagree with you but Yes I have heard of it and I don't see where the antitrust agreement has been violated in anyway by what happened. Its actually called the sports broadcasting act of 1961.
Heres a copy of it Perhaps you should read it and pin point what part has been violated.
http://www.law.indiana.edu/fclj/pubs/v47/no3/cox.html

Specter uses it as a red herring to threaten the NFL yet I don't see what part of the sports broadcast act of 1961 has been violated. That just leads one to wonder why a senator who's top two campaign contributors (# 2 comcast and #1 the law firm that represent comcast) should even be allowed to be involved in this to begin with. With the legal feud over the last couple of years between cable providers (Comcast included) over broadcast rights to the NFLN clearly it would leave the appearence of a definate conflict of interest of what Senator Specters real motive in this investigation is. Is he after the truth or is this a power play to manipulate the NFL into an agreement that would allow the cable companies to market the NFLN as a pay for tier service? I would think that just the chance of such an underhanded practice could happen would have caused the senator to step away from this and have another member of the senate judicary commitee asigned to this matter.
Why has Specter fought this fight alone? Where are the concerns of the other members of the senate judicary commitee?
I know you all like to make senator specter seem all noble and eveything but the man has a history of manipulating witness in most everything he been involved in. It makes me wonder especially when you follow the money.

Satchboogie
03-15-2008, 12:39 AM
There was no federal or civil law broken so why does he think he's entitled to view anything? Just more of the same old Grandstanding from the Senator.....
Its too bad he hasn't put as much time and energy into fixing the social securty system. Your tax dollars at work as usual.

Since when did Boston or any Patsie fan care about how tax dollars are spent. You people didn't seem to be too concerned when Boston was stealing and wasting Billions of US tax dollars on that joke you call the Big Dig. Any money Spector spends on investigating this issue will pale in comparison to the money Boston and the State of Mass stole from US taxpayers because of poor engineering and lazy union workers.

As for Spector saving social security. They have tried. Private Accounts. But your boy Teddy thinks that government knows how to handle my money better than I do.

MR NFLFAN
03-15-2008, 02:10 AM
Since when did Boston or any Patsie fan care about how tax dollars are spent. You people didn't seem to be too concerned when Boston was stealing and wasting Billions of US tax dollars on that joke you call the Big Dig. Any money Spector spends on investigating this issue will pale in comparison to the money Boston and the State of Mass stole from US taxpayers because of poor engineering and lazy union workers.

As for Spector saving social security. They have tried. Private Accounts. But your boy Teddy thinks that government knows how to handle my money better than I do.


Here's a little hint for you NE is actually made up of six states and along with those six states the Patriots also have many fans nationwide.
Since when are all pats fans from Boston? Nice try to deflect the subject but I'm not from Mass. nor am I living in Mass.
So back to he original statement which you seem to think wasn't correct. Exactly what law was broken and why is the goverment even involved? I've read the Football Broadcasting act of 1961 the so-called anti trust law and fail to see what that has to do with breaking the video taping rule.

MattM
03-15-2008, 12:33 PM
I agree with your entire post here. I think it is a little slippery to say if a genuine tape is produced that it wasnt ordered by someone in charge but I do agree you must be able to prove that it was. That is a very tricky thing and you bring up a solid point and I do agree to the term "reasonable proof"

I did not intend to imply that people are considered guily without just cause. What I was trying to say is if it appears like someone is guilty of something, generally public oppinion will fall that way, weather or not it has seal tight evidence to back it up. Is it fair? no! But that is how it is with stuff like this. The fact that evidence was deystroyed will be viewed by many as a guilty plea by the commineer unless he can provide a very convincing explination which he has not done so far.

I've said about all I can on this topic, but one last thing to Mr. NFL Fan--if Walsh does have a walkthrough tape of the Rams SB (which no one but Walsh currently knows whether he does or not), the Pats* can spin it all they want but no one outside of Boston will believe that he was acting alone in producing it. End of story. If the Commissioner "chooses to believe" the Pats* that Walsh was a "lone gunman" in such a case, there will be heck to pay with the NFL fanbase all over the League and it will show the League is about as straight as the WWF.....

MR NFLFAN
03-15-2008, 03:06 PM
I've said about all I can on this topic, but one last thing to Mr. NFL Fan--if Walsh does have a walkthrough tape of the Rams SB (which no one but Walsh currently knows whether he does or not), the Pats* can spin it all they want but no one outside of Boston will believe that he was acting alone in producing it. End of story. If the Commissioner "chooses to believe" the Pats* that Walsh was a "lone gunman" in such a case, there will be heck to pay with the NFL fanbase all over the League and it will show the League is about as straight as the WWF.....

It isn't a matter of spinning it. Its a matter of can you
1) produce a tape of a Rams walk thru
2) Authenticate with reasonable proof to the commisioner that this tape was ordered by the Patriots chain of command.
If you put hatred aside wouldn't you expect that your team or any team for matter be afforded the benefit of doubt from the league. Don't you believe that the burden of proof should be put on the accuser?

Belichick is no saint by any means but neither is walsh and thus he shouldn't be taken merely at his word. Were not talking about a $50 fine were talking about something that could severely affect a franchise for many years.

I myself don't believe there is a tape of any walk thru but thats my opinion.

As far as Heck to pay with the Fan base i think your mainly speaking out of anger.
Tell me MattM as a fan what are you going to do to bring down the house on the commisioner? Will you not watch your bills play next season? Will you not attend a bills game if you do attend games? Will you not purchase Bills merchandise? Will you not visit any nfl team message boards? Will you boycott all things NFL? I don't believe you will.
What exactly is your plan to teach the commisioner a lesson?
Fact of the matter is the commisioner holds all the cards in this. The Broncos and the 49ers were both caught doing an end run around the salary cap and they did it during seasons when the both won SB's. The league and the game never skipped a beat and I don't believe it will now.

If your a fan of the game as many of us are we'll all be tuned in ready to kick off the season this year just like we do every year.

shula_guy
03-17-2008, 03:38 PM
As far as Heck to pay with the Fan base i think your mainly speaking out of anger.
Tell me MattM as a fan what are you going to do to bring down the house on the commisioner? Will you not watch your bills play next season? Will you not attend a bills game if you do attend games? Will you not purchase Bills merchandise? Will you not visit any nfl team message boards? Will you boycott all things NFL? I don't believe you will.
What exactly is your plan to teach the commisioner a lesson?
Fact of the matter is the commisioner holds all the cards in this. The Broncos and the 49ers were both caught doing an end run around the salary cap and they did it during seasons when the both won SB's. The league and the game never skipped a beat and I don't believe it will now.

If your a fan of the game as many of us are we'll all be tuned in ready to kick off the season this year just like we do every year.

I must say I think you are severly overstating the consequences of this. It will not put an end to the nfl but if it is not resolved in a way the the majority views as fair it will hurt the nfl.

It is true the football junkies will continue to watch football but if its crediability is viewed on the same level as the wwf, how many new fans do you think it will recruit?

how do you think it will effect fantasy leagues and betting in general if the gweneral belief is that the games are rigged?

MR NFLFAN
03-17-2008, 09:29 PM
Don't you think "Rigged" is a bit of a stretch? There are just too many veriables involved to fix a game and I don't believe this will have any more effect on the game than all the chants we've heard for years about the refs bad calls. I myself think the video gate episode and any advantage has been blown way out of proportion as many of the experts have stated.
1)Teams regularly change up signals for many reasons. Players and coaches change teams on a yearly basis plus it isn't like other means besides video tape aren't used to steal signals because they are. Dummy calls and dummy callers are also used to conteract the effort plus the offense still has to execute. Not quite as easy as many like to try and make it out to be.
I just don't see this having any great effect on business of the nfl.

MattM
03-19-2008, 06:50 AM
It isn't a matter of spinning it. Its a matter of can you
1) produce a tape of a Rams walk thru
2) Authenticate with reasonable proof to the commisioner that this tape was ordered by the Patriots chain of command.
If you put hatred aside wouldn't you expect that your team or any team for matter be afforded the benefit of doubt from the league. Don't you believe that the burden of proof should be put on the accuser?

Belichick is no saint by any means but neither is walsh and thus he shouldn't be taken merely at his word. Were not talking about a $50 fine were talking about something that could severely affect a franchise for many years.

I myself don't believe there is a tape of any walk thru but thats my opinion.

As far as Heck to pay with the Fan base i think your mainly speaking out of anger.
Tell me MattM as a fan what are you going to do to bring down the house on the commisioner? Will you not watch your bills play next season? Will you not attend a bills game if you do attend games? Will you not purchase Bills merchandise? Will you not visit any nfl team message boards? Will you boycott all things NFL? I don't believe you will.
What exactly is your plan to teach the commisioner a lesson?
Fact of the matter is the commisioner holds all the cards in this. The Broncos and the 49ers were both caught doing an end run around the salary cap and they did it during seasons when the both won SB's. The league and the game never skipped a beat and I don't believe it will now.

If your a fan of the game as many of us are we'll all be tuned in ready to kick off the season this year just like we do every year.

Number 2 above is ridiculous--if a tape exists, what are the odds that Walsh did this on his own? Personally I'd say less than 1% and I'd say most fans would be on my side on this one, dude. Only Pats* homers would believe otherwise. As I said, spin all you want about "burden of proof", but this ain't a court of law, it's the court of public opinion that Goodell is going to have to answer to here, and saying that the Pats* had nothing to do with it doesn't pass any objective party's smell test.

In terms of what I'd do as an individual fan, you may be right in that I'm hooked, but then again, I used to be hooked on baseball, too, as a kid (i.e., reading my team's box score every game, spending hours on Sundays reading up on stats, etc.), yet today, after baseball became "moneyball", with some teams (i.e., big market wealthy teams) in the playoffs every year and others consigned to the permanent scrap heap, I could care less and they get none of my money. Remember when baseball used to be on Saturday afternoon and Monday nights? What was the value of their latest network deal versus those days? The NFL ought to learn that lesson--you need to work to maintain your popularity, it isn't a given.....

MLTKRT
03-19-2008, 08:40 AM
reading all the Pats* explain this one is great

:jt0323:

MR NFLFAN
03-19-2008, 12:59 PM
Number 2 above is ridiculous--if a tape exists, what are the odds that Walsh did this on his own? Personally I'd say less than 1% and I'd say most fans would be on my side on this one, dude. Only Pats* homers would believe otherwise. As I said, spin all you want about "burden of proof", but this ain't a court of law, it's the court of public opinion that Goodell is going to have to answer to here, and saying that the Pats* had nothing to do with it doesn't pass any objective party's smell test.

In terms of what I'd do as an individual fan, you may be right in that I'm hooked, but then again, I used to be hooked on baseball, too, as a kid (i.e., reading my team's box score every game, spending hours on Sundays reading up on stats, etc.), yet today, after baseball became "moneyball", with some teams (i.e., big market wealthy teams) in the playoffs every year and others consigned to the permanent scrap heap, I could care less and they get none of my money. Remember when baseball used to be on Saturday afternoon and Monday nights? What was the value of their latest network deal versus those days? The NFL ought to learn that lesson--you need to work to maintain your popularity, it isn't a given.....

Well I suppose the odds would be that low if Matt Walsh were a model citizen but we both know he isn't. The fact that he has to have a kitchen sink indemnity from the league with out recourse even if he lies isn't bringing the thought of model citizen to the top of my mind and I'm sure its put more than a few questions in the commisioners mind also. Being fired for secrectly taping conversations with Pioli and stealing league properity along with lying about his actual position with the Patriots and a non exsistant confidentiality agreement doesn't pass my smell test either. His actions alone raise credibility issues and its reason enough to not take the man merely at his word.

late again
03-20-2008, 02:21 AM
Well I suppose the odds would be that low if Matt Walsh were a model citizen but we both know he isn't. The fact that he has to have a kitchen sink indemnity from the league with out recourse even if he lies isn't bringing the thought of model citizen to the top of my mind and I'm sure its put more than a few questions in the commisioners mind also. Being fired for secrectly taping conversations with Pioli and stealing league properity along with lying about his actual position with the Patriots and a non exsistant confidentiality agreement doesn't pass my smell test either. His actions alone raise credibility issues and its reason enough to not take the man merely at his word.

I've come to believe that the only thing Walsh has is his eye witness accounting of anything. To me that's why he is insisting on this blanket immunity. Because he has nothing tangible to offer as proof. So it'll become a case of him making some less than flattering statements concerning the Pats operations. The Pats' FO will deny anything unseemly. And it will end in a stalemate.
The only ones who will know the whole truth will (still) be those directly involved. The rest of us will be left to speculate and draw our own conclusions. There will be some who will still insist that the Pats did absolutely nothing wrong. And there'll be others who will continue to believe that Belichick is the Antichrist....didn't Revelations say he would come out of the East?.....eh..???....don't scoff just yet. :lol:.
Anyway then there are going to be others, like myself that believe, as in most cases the truth is somewhere in the middle. Nonetheless, once Walsh finally gets his 15 minutes, the media will quit talking about it. Once that happens, the rest of us will also move on. Let's face it, whether we want to admit it or not, the media drives the current buzz.

jimmy42jack0
03-20-2008, 02:50 AM
Well I suppose the odds would be that low if Matt Walsh were a model citizen but we both know he isn't. The fact that he has to have a kitchen sink indemnity from the league with out recourse even if he lies isn't bringing the thought of model citizen to the top of my mind and I'm sure its put more than a few questions in the commisioners mind also. Being fired for secrectly taping conversations with Pioli and stealing league properity along with lying about his actual position with the Patriots and a non exsistant confidentiality agreement doesn't pass my smell test either. His actions alone raise credibility issues and its reason enough to not take the man merely at his word.
so you think we should believe that belicheat, pioli, and kraft dont have any credibility issues? where there is smoke, there is fire...and from where im sitting up here in upton, ma...its pretty cloudy and hot for march

MR NFLFAN
03-20-2008, 03:59 AM
so you think we should believe that belicheat, pioli, and kraft dont have any credibility issues? where there is smoke, there is fire...and from where im sitting up here in upton, ma...its pretty cloudy and hot for march

Nope didn't say that at all. Its up to the accuser to prove his accusations. Funny thing in America thats the way its always been.

MR NFLFAN
03-20-2008, 04:09 AM
I've come to believe that the only thing Walsh has is his eye witness accounting of anything. To me that's why he is insisting on this blanket immunity. Because he has nothing tangible to offer as proof. So it'll become a case of him making some less than flattering statements concerning the Pats operations. The Pats' FO will deny anything unseemly. And it will end in a stalemate.
The only ones who will know the whole truth will (still) be those directly involved. The rest of us will be left to speculate and draw our own conclusions. There will be some who will still insist that the Pats did absolutely nothing wrong. And there'll be others who will continue to believe that Belichick is the Antichrist....didn't Revelations say he would come out of the East?.....eh..???....don't scoff just yet. :lol:.
Anyway then there are going to be others, like myself that believe, as in most cases the truth is somewhere in the middle. Nonetheless, once Walsh finally gets his 15 minutes, the media will quit talking about it. Once that happens, the rest of us will also move on. Let's face it, whether we want to admit it or not, the media drives the current buzz.

Yeah thats what I'm starting to believe. Walsh never stated he had walk thru tapes that came from a hearld reporter who got it from an anonymous source...Arlen perhaps? :lol:
Every 3 or 4 weeks a press release comes out that states the lawyers are getting closer to a deal, were real close, almost a done deal etc. Even front page Arlen has been rather silent.

jimmy42jack0
03-20-2008, 01:15 PM
Nope didn't say that at all. Its up to the accuser to prove his accusations. Funny thing in America thats the way its always been.
what america do you live in? the one i live in...you accuse people of things and watch them try to defend themselves...it may not be the law of the land...but its the law of initial public reaction

MR NFLFAN
03-20-2008, 03:21 PM
what america do you live in? the one i live in...you accuse people of things and watch them try to defend themselves...it may not be the law of the land...but its the law of initial public reaction


Well Walsh hasn't really accused anybody of anything yet. So far all we've heard are reports from anonymous sources and lip service from a grandstanding Senator with special interest trying to position himself to reward the hand that fed him.

jimmy42jack0
03-20-2008, 03:38 PM
Well Walsh hasn't really accused anybody of anything yet. So far all we've heard are reports from anonymous sources and lip service from a grandstanding Senator with special interest trying to position himself to reward the hand that fed him.
are you inferring that the only reason spector is involved is because comcast is paying him to be interested? forgive me but that seems like an embarrassed fan grasping at straws that just simply arent there

MR NFLFAN
03-20-2008, 03:59 PM
are you inferring that the only reason spector is involved is because comcast is paying him to be interested? forgive me but that seems like an embarrassed fan grasping at straws that just simply arent there


The words are "has paid" and heres a news flash for you. In washington senators and member of the house grease the palms of those who funded their campaigns every day. Did you just arrive in America?


I have to laugh at some of you guys. You'd believe Hitler as long as he wanted to punish the Patriots. Forgive me but that seems like nothing other than a jealous fan grasping at any straw to see a team punished weather they are proven guilty or not. How sick is that.

late again
03-20-2008, 04:22 PM
are you inferring that the only reason spector is involved is because comcast is paying him to be interested? forgive me but that seems like an embarrassed fan grasping at straws that just simply arent there

As a Fin fan I'll say this - IMO Spector has involved himself because he's an Eagles fan and he was disappointed that they lost the SB. Last year the world found out that the Pats had violated league rules with the video taping thing.
So quite naturally the fan in him wondered if the Pats had done the same thing in that SB. Now he's using his position of power to drive this to the end.
I do not for one minute believe that Arlen Spector has come to own this crusade because he's interested in "truth, justice and the American way", however. I seriously doubt if he even cares about the average Eagles fan. He's just another politician who has his own interests and agenda to serve.
His interests may very well include Comcast. Certainly a case could be made for that line of thinking.
Whatever the reason may be, as MRNFLFAN stated, you can believe it's driven by money.

gofins
03-20-2008, 04:34 PM
Buffalo's going to the super bowl!!!:sidelol::sidelol:
New England's going undefeated!!:sidelol: :sidelol:

jimmy42jack0
03-20-2008, 04:49 PM
The words are "has paid" and heres a news flash for you. In washington senators and member of the house grease the palms of those who funded their campaigns every day. Did you just arrive in America?


I have to laugh at some of you guys. You'd believe Hitler as long as he wanted to punish the Patriots. Forgive me but that seems like nothing other than a jealous fan grasping at any straw to see a team punished weather they are proven guilty or not. How sick is that.
look...A. i was a history major...i know politicians have a long and distinguished history of taking bribes to make things seem more interesting than they really are.
B. ive lived here in massachusetts since i was in 3rd grade...roughly late 1988...and the pats up until 2001 were a laughing stock...god awful terrible much like the wanny years and this past year for the dolphins...
C. you dont make some shuttle blasting off lift from laughing stock to super bowl champs when your pro bowl qb gets knocked out and your second stringer who barely recieved any PT in college without something fishy being up
D. im not saying brady didn't develop into a great qb, not that at all...but again, you dont go from laughing stock to champs in that short of a time period without something being up
E. there are wayyyyyyyyyy too many scandalous things going on between the NFL and the patriots for them not to be up to no good...whether its destroying evidence, paying people to hush up, or whatever, the pats cheated...they did it many many many times...they won many many many games as a result of their cheating...did they win them all? nope...but does that justify them cheating? hell no
F. look, i know this whole scandal must be embarrassing for you as i know it must take alot of pride to come onto this board and hopelessly defend your team day after day after day...but they are wrong here...belichick is wrong, pioli is wrong, and kraft is wrong...they CHEATED
G. would it make you feel better if the senator was from hawaii and didnt like football? does that mean his/her pursuit of justice would be any less valid?

MR NFLFAN
03-20-2008, 05:29 PM
Jimmy
You are free to believe whatever it is that helps you sleep at night.
This whole video gate thing is so blown way out of proportion in isn't even funny.
When you factor in all the aspects of the NFL game today it would be impossible to win everything the Pats have won as you say by simply stealing "D" signals.
Coaches and players change teams every year. Teams are all trying to read those signals perhaps not using video but make no mistake about it they are all trying to steal them. If teams weren't then there would be no need for 3 men signaling with two decoys. I suppose that just began when belichick took over too. You try and make this all sound so neat and easy when in fact team are aware of this and regularly change those signals up for that very reason. Besides all that no team can have great success using one just one aspect of the game, you still need a defense and special teams units that can play at a high level. Steal all the signals you want but if your defense can't stop the other teams offense or you can't cover a KO or PR then you'll lose 9 out of 10 times. So what are those "D" signals going to do for your defense or special teams units? What Belichick did was wrong for sure and as such the team was penalized but its just not that easy to win in the NFL and if you think NE success was all because of those tapes you are in for a rude awaking. This season there were no video tape signals advantage so what are you going to attribute the 19-1 record too just luck or have you already started to dream up the next illegal advantage?

Look if you hate the Pats you should just say that, I can understand that but don't try and invent some lame story like you know all things football because after reading your post it very obvious you really don't know much about the way the game is really played. Not one head coach has givin two sh**s about any video gate advantage why?
Because Real football people know better thats why.

jimmy42jack0
03-20-2008, 06:16 PM
Jimmy
You are free to believe whatever it is that helps you sleep at night.
This whole video gate thing is so blown way out of proportion in isn't even funny.
When you factor in all the aspects of the NFL game today it would be impossible to win everything the Pats have won as you say by simply stealing "D" signals.
Coaches and players change teams every year. Teams are all trying to read those signals perhaps not using video but make no mistake about it they are all trying to steal them. If teams weren't then there would be no need for 3 men signaling with two decoys. I suppose that just began when belichick took over too. You try and make this all sound so neat and easy when in fact team are aware of this and regularly change those signals up for that very reason. Besides all that no team can have great success using one just one aspect of the game, you still need a defense and special teams units that can play at a high level. Steal all the signals you want but if your defense can't stop the other teams offense or you can't cover a KO or PR then you'll lose 9 out of 10 times. So what are those "D" signals going to do for your defense or special teams units? What Belichick did was wrong for sure and as such the team was penalized but its just not that easy to win in the NFL and if you think NE success was all because of those tapes you are in for a rude awaking. This season there were no video tape signals advantage so what are you going to attribute the 19-1 record too just luck or have you already started to dream up the next illegal advantage?

Look if you hate the Pats you should just say that, I can understand that but don't try and invent some lame story like you know all things football because after reading your post it very obvious you really don't know much about the way the game is really played. Not one head coach has givin two sh**s about any video gate advantage why?
Because Real football people know better thats why.
hey bro, whatever helps you sleep at night

the pats got caught cheating, it doesnt matter whether it was a team's A signals or their Z signals...they cheated...and when all things are fairly equal...and talent among various nfl being fairly equal(this year for the pats aside)...knowing what is coming is the BEST advantage you can have...period...end of story...you can spin doctor this anyways you see fit...and you surely will...

and im not attributing all of NE's sucess to cheating...just a fair portion of it, as being 25 years old and having followed the game for several, several years at this point, i realize you cant just cheat your way to titles...but you can sure try and try they did...

i dont hate the pats anymore or less than i hate every other team in the league, as i am a dolphins fan...but i dont care who wins the super bowl unless it is the dolphins...do i like certain teams over others? sure...id rather see the pats cheat their way to the top again over seeing the jets win a title...so your point there is moot...

and after reading all your posts on the topic, its pretty clear you will say or point fingers at whomever you need to deflect blame away from your guys...which to a certain extent is an admirable trait...until you tell me that i dont know what im talking about...then you just become a dick about it

and you know why most coaches arent talking about it? they are too damn busy trying to win legitimately and dont have time to fly kites with urban meyer

Ronnie Bass
03-20-2008, 06:36 PM
jimmyjack - I think you are being very navie here, all due respect, because you are acting like they are the only ones who did it.

Now I'm sure there were some teams that didn't do this, but I would say they are in the minority, not the majority.

Also, when people try to discredit other teams successes in this type of manner, it only comes across as sour grapes.

In other words do yourself a favor and just drop it and move on, it's not worth it.

jimmy42jack0
03-20-2008, 06:46 PM
jimmyjack - I think you are being very navie here, all due respect, because you are acting like they are the only ones who did it.

Now I'm sure there were some teams that didn't do this, but I would say they are in the minority, not the majority.

Also, when people try to discredit other teams successes in this type of manner, it only comes across as sour grapes.

In other words do yourself a favor and just drop it and move on, it's not worth it.
not at all...i understand that cheating happens everywhere!...

its been shown in several of these threads that the broncos and 49ers have also been guilty of cheating

and in no means have i suggested an asterik or taking away their titles or anything silly or ridiculous like that...

they cheated...and if you cheat, i think you should be gone...if goodell had any set of balls, he would have either suspended him for half to a full season or forced belichick to resign flat out...i think the same should have happened to pioli and kraft should have been fined as well...

its not sour grapes...if the dolphins, marlins, heat, panthers or canes were found to be cheating, id be pissed at those individuals responsible and calling for their head just the same...

to me, all the pats had was a minor slap on the wrist and i think if anything, that encourages other teams to see what they can get away with which is not the message the league should be sending

but i agree...it isnt worth running in circles with another pats fan about the same issue as i have enough of them to deal with

late again
03-20-2008, 09:53 PM
not at all...i understand that cheating happens everywhere!...

its been shown in several of these threads that the broncos and 49ers have also been guilty of cheating

and in no means have i suggested an asterik or taking away their titles or anything silly or ridiculous like that...

they cheated...and if you cheat, i think you should be gone...if goodell had any set of balls, he would have either suspended him for half to a full season or forced belichick to resign flat out...i think the same should have happened to pioli and kraft should have been fined as well...

its not sour grapes...if the dolphins, marlins, heat, panthers or canes were found to be cheating, id be pissed at those individuals responsible and calling for their head just the same...

to me, all the pats had was a minor slap on the wrist and i think if anything, that encourages other teams to see what they can get away with which is not the message the league should be sending

but i agree...it isnt worth running in circles with another pats fan about the same issue as i have enough of them to deal with

Actually, Kraft was fined. Kraft is the owner of the Pats; the Pats were fined..???..I believe 250K. Ergo, Kraft was fined.
As to whether the punishment is fitting or not, this is how I look at it. Ultimately it doesn't matter what either of us (or any Pats fans) think.
Because the NFL, just like any other business has written policy as to how they penalize rule violations. I don't know that Goodell has authority to force Belichick to actually resign (I don't know that he doesn't either).
While I recognize your belief that the Pats got off light, I should point out that losing that 1st rd pick is significant. The Broncos and 49ers lost 3rd rd picks one year and 6th rd picks the next.
One thing that I firmly believe is that losing that 1st rd pick put a crimp in Belichick's plan for the coming year. He, of course knew that they would lose some players to FA. He probably speculated that some others might retire due to age or decline in performance. I'm sure he was also looking at how CB heavy this draft is, as well. If you've got 2 1st rd picks in a draft full of talented CBs, you're not going to be too worried as you watch Samuel, Gay, Wilson all hit the open FA market. If you want you can come away with 2 very talented CBs in the 1 st rd.
So...Samuel leaves. Gay leaves.Even Wilson leaves. But one of those prized 1st rd picks is gone. While you have the #7 pick, you don't get to pick again until #62. I think that loss is significant.

TomBradyWoot
03-21-2008, 12:06 AM
New England's going undefeated!!:sidelol: :sidelol:


The difference is his signature says buffalos going to the super bowl, where mine doesnt say new englands going undefeated

miami went 1-15:sidelol::sidelol:

jimmy42jack0
03-21-2008, 12:19 AM
The difference is his signature says buffalos going to the super bowl, where mine doesnt say new englands going undefeated

miami went 1-15:sidelol::sidelol:
it doesnt make a difference if you both finish without a ring