PDA

View Full Version : More on Spygate. Did Bellycheat always do this????



BillsFanInPeace
05-19-2008, 12:22 PM
Attached is an article by Gregg Easterbrook a writer for ESPN Page 2. I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but the last paragraph is really interesting as I read the Simms quote in Friday's Washington Post. Enjoy!!!


You're sick of Spygate. I'm sick of Spygate. The NFL's owners are sick of Spygate, because it is making the goose that laid the golden eggs less valuable by the day.
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/05/tmq_lg-1.gif
But things are going to drag on until commissioner Roger Goodell or the owners take the steps necessary to bring Spygate to a close. Changing their story week by week doesn't close Spygate. Rationalizations and doublespeak don't close Spygate. Admitting only what you have been compelled to admit doesn't close Spygate. The reason Spygate keeps dragging on is because the guilty party -- New England coach Bill Belichick -- has not been punished in any meaningful way.

Belichick cheated and lied, and so far has gotten away nearly scot-free. Not only does Belichick continue to run a team that has systematically cheated for (we now know) eight years -- a team that engaged in "a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition," to quote Goodell -- he shows not one whit of remorse, except over being caught. Belichick just spoke about Spygate (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/16/cbsnews_investigates/main4104058.shtml) on CBS News. He didn't sound like a blameless hero who wanted his reputation back, he sounded like he was angry that people were questioning him.

A man of dignity, who is caught cheating, would resign. Had Belichick shown dignity and resigned, this week's humiliating media circus in New York over former Patriots videographer Matt Walsh would never have occurred. Spygate would already be behind us. "Cheaters! Cheaters!" the crowd at Radio City Music Hall chanted when New England's name went on the clock at last month's draft. "Cheaters! Cheaters!" crowds will chant next fall when New England takes the field, if the cheater Belichick is still running the show. The way to stop that, and bring Spygate to a close, is to suspend the person responsible.

The $500,000 fine assessed against Belichick is a token sanction at his income level. The draft choice fine against the Patriots penalizes mainly the team's fans, who are not responsible for what happened. Patriots players are in effect being punished for their coaches' actions by having their reputations harmed. Suspending Belichick for at least a year would constitute a serious penalty where none has been imposed so far, and show pro football is serious about integrity. Unless the NFL wants its message to the young to be, "Good ahead, cheat and lie, no one will punish you."

Whatever case Belichick might have had in his favor dissolved with Walsh's testimony, which Goodell said he accepted as truthful. Though Walsh did not have evidence of illicit taping by New England during the Rams' Super Bowl walk-through -- the Boston Herald has retracted its claim to this effect -- what Walsh did have was ****ing.



First, Walsh offered firsthand indications Belichick always knew what he was doing was wrong. Walsh told Goodell, and then Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, that he was instructed to avoid detection and use cover stories if asked why he was taping. If Patriots coaches really believed an activity was allowed by league regulations, they would have let the staff do it openly. Belichick's primary explanation, given in February to the Boston Globe -- "I felt there was a gray area in the rule and I misinterpreted the rule" -- has always failed the straight-face test, since the rule reads, "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game." Find a "gray area" there to misinterpret. Belichick's alternative explanation, (http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=27686&pcid=47) given last fall when Spygate first broke, then expanded on Friday to CBS News, was: "I made a mistake. I was wrong." Years of sneaky cheating are not a "mistake." Even Goodell said this week, "I'm pretty well on the record here that I don't accept Bill Belichick's explanation" that he merely "misinterpreted" rules. Let's call Belichick's claim what it is: a lie.
More important is the issue of whether New England benefited from cheating. Goodell has contended any benefits the Patriots derived were minor at most. But why would the Patriots clandestinely break a rule for eight years, engaging risk, if they never obtained any benefit? They weren't making a PBS documentary! Walsh testified that he took the videotapes directly to Ernie Adams, Belichick's right-hand man. If the tapes merely had been for some kind of historic archive, they would have gone to a video room clerk: Instead they went straight to the top. Walsh told Goodell and Specter that a former New England quarterback said the sign-stealing operation allowed Patriots coaches to know an opponent's defense 75 percent of the time. Note that Goodell, in his news conference about Walsh, never mentioned this revelation. Specter had to point it out.

Belichick has tacitly admitted that the taping helped: His September 2007 statement says, "We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress." Not while the game was in progress -- but later, after Adams analyzed the tapes, in the next meeting. At his press conference, Goodell was asked why the Spygate tapes the league obtained last fall -- the ones rapidly destroyed -- were never shown to anyone. Goodell's answer: "We were in the second week of a season where those tapes potentially could have had competitive consequences." There could not have been "competitive consequences" unless videotapes of sign-stealing can help a team win a game.

It is unfair to the Patriots to say, as some of the sportstalk world is now saying, their Super Bowl run was the result of their cheating. No one who knows football doubts that most of the success New England has achieved in the past eight seasons was earned on the field, by the performance of the players. In some weeks this season, the Patriots were performing so phenomenally well that if all the coaches had left the building at the start of the second quarter, the players would have won the game anyway.

But many NFL contests turn on as little as a few snaps. If cheating allowed the Patriots to come out ahead on a couple of more snaps per game than they otherwise would have, that could shift outcomes in their favor. All four New England Super Bowl appearances of this decade have been decided by three points. Change one or two plays in Arizona this February, and Belichick joins Chuck Noll at 4-0 in the ultimate game; change one or two plays in each of his previous appearances, and Belichick joins Bud Grant and Marv Levy at 0-4. How many NFL owners would surrender a first-round draft choice and a fine equal to one player salary to exchange results over the past eight years with the Patriots? New England kept cheating because it was benefiting from cheating, and the price paid so far is trivial.

Gradually, the NFL is creeping toward honesty on Spygate. Last fall, the league destroyed the evidence and stonewalled at every turn, refusing to say anything about what was in the tapes. This time around, the NFL posted Walsh's handiwork on the Internet for all to see. NFL Network aired Specter's press conference denouncing the league. NFL.com posted Specter's anti-NFL floor statement to the Senate. On NFLN, Rich Eisen, Marshall Faulk and Rod Woodson discussed in detail the unflattering nature of Walsh's revelations. This trend toward openness is a positive sign.

But there is more to be done in reforming the NFL. Until Walsh's name surfaced in The New York Times two days before the Super Bowl, the league refused to say anything about the destroyed New England documents. Slowly Goodell began to answer questions, but he's far from an open book. Specter still had to drag out of Goodell the league's acknowledgement that the Pats' cheating went back to 2000. When a 78-year-old man on chemotherapy has the entire NFL reeling, that means football reform is far more complete.

Is a Mitchell Report for professional football -- an independent commission with prosecutor-like powers -- the answer? That is Specter's contention, and he must be taken seriously, considering how much he and his staff have brought into the light of day in just a few months of part-time investigation of Spygate.

But a Mitchell Report for the NFL would cause this unpleasantness to drag on for years. And the situations are different. Steroid use in baseball was a problem of national scope, because home run hitters with instant biceps were causing teens and young adults to want to inject themselves with steroids, ignoring long-term health risks. Inaction on steroids in baseball could have caused long-term damage to public health. Plus, prior to George Mitchell's assignment, it seemed likely steroid use was pervasive in major league baseball, justifying an investigative commission with a sweeping mandate. With Spygate, the worst-case outcome is a decline of the NFL as America's favorite sport. If the NFL goes into a cycle of decline, this will be awful for those who love the sport, but have no impact on the nation as a whole. And unlike baseball, where signs of steroid use were many, there are no similar indications of pervasive cheating in the NFL. This suggests an independent commission to investigate pro football is not necessary.

What is necessary is a serious suspension for Belichick. Suspension for a season would actually be a mild penalty. Belichick's lack of remorse creates an argument for a lifetime ban. Why should the 99 percent of NFL players, coaches and front-office officials who are honest sportsmen be tarred by association with a few who are not? There's no "right" to coach in the NFL -- if you thumb your nose at the rules, you should be held accountable. Just like everyone breathed a sigh of relief on the day Richard Nixon left office, including his own supporters, everyone who loves football will breathe a huge sigh of relief on the day Belichick is finally punished and the sport's integrity is restored. Suspending Belichick would be a fitting last chapter to Spygate, bringing the matter to a close. Unless, of course, you would prefer that Spygate go on and on and on.



http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...7&sportCat=nfl (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080517&sportCat=nfl)

satz
05-19-2008, 01:09 PM
that a long freaking post which looks stolen from a another site lol
this guys sounds like an idiot more considering he has a link on the page to the spygate timeline when check out sept 14 th report by mort.
it goes like BB and pats fined and repremanded for taping coaching signals from the sidelines since 2000.

this thread is even more stupid suggesting a HC is not responsible but a LB coach underhim is running a show.bizzare

if that was so critical he fails to address this years 18-1 season where brady threw more TD`s than anyone.

MR NFLFAN
05-19-2008, 03:38 PM
Gee I'm surprised MattM didn't find that article to post.

McCool
05-19-2008, 10:19 PM
Attached is an article by Gregg Easterbrook a writer for ESPN Page 2. I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but the last paragraph is really interesting as I read the Simms quote in Friday's Washington Post. Enjoy!!!


You're sick of Spygate. I'm sick of Spygate. The NFL's owners are sick of Spygate, because it is making the goose that laid the golden eggs less valuable by the day.
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/05/tmq_lg-1.gif
But things are going to drag on until commissioner Roger Goodell or the owners take the steps necessary to bring Spygate to a close. Changing their story week by week doesn't close Spygate. Rationalizations and doublespeak don't close Spygate. Admitting only what you have been compelled to admit doesn't close Spygate. The reason Spygate keeps dragging on is because the guilty party -- New England coach Bill Belichick -- has not been punished in any meaningful way.

Belichick cheated and lied, and so far has gotten away nearly scot-free. Not only does Belichick continue to run a team that has systematically cheated for (we now know) eight years -- a team that engaged in "a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition," to quote Goodell -- he shows not one whit of remorse, except over being caught. Belichick just spoke about Spygate (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/16/cbsnews_investigates/main4104058.shtml) on CBS News. He didn't sound like a blameless hero who wanted his reputation back, he sounded like he was angry that people were questioning him.

A man of dignity, who is caught cheating, would resign. Had Belichick shown dignity and resigned, this week's humiliating media circus in New York over former Patriots videographer Matt Walsh would never have occurred. Spygate would already be behind us. "Cheaters! Cheaters!" the crowd at Radio City Music Hall chanted when New England's name went on the clock at last month's draft. "Cheaters! Cheaters!" crowds will chant next fall when New England takes the field, if the cheater Belichick is still running the show. The way to stop that, and bring Spygate to a close, is to suspend the person responsible.

The $500,000 fine assessed against Belichick is a token sanction at his income level. The draft choice fine against the Patriots penalizes mainly the team's fans, who are not responsible for what happened. Patriots players are in effect being punished for their coaches' actions by having their reputations harmed. Suspending Belichick for at least a year would constitute a serious penalty where none has been imposed so far, and show pro football is serious about integrity. Unless the NFL wants its message to the young to be, "Good ahead, cheat and lie, no one will punish you."

Whatever case Belichick might have had in his favor dissolved with Walsh's testimony, which Goodell said he accepted as truthful. Though Walsh did not have evidence of illicit taping by New England during the Rams' Super Bowl walk-through -- the Boston Herald has retracted its claim to this effect -- what Walsh did have was ****ing.



First, Walsh offered firsthand indications Belichick always knew what he was doing was wrong. Walsh told Goodell, and then Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, that he was instructed to avoid detection and use cover stories if asked why he was taping. If Patriots coaches really believed an activity was allowed by league regulations, they would have let the staff do it openly. Belichick's primary explanation, given in February to the Boston Globe -- "I felt there was a gray area in the rule and I misinterpreted the rule" -- has always failed the straight-face test, since the rule reads, "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game." Find a "gray area" there to misinterpret. Belichick's alternative explanation, (http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=27686&pcid=47) given last fall when Spygate first broke, then expanded on Friday to CBS News, was: "I made a mistake. I was wrong." Years of sneaky cheating are not a "mistake." Even Goodell said this week, "I'm pretty well on the record here that I don't accept Bill Belichick's explanation" that he merely "misinterpreted" rules. Let's call Belichick's claim what it is: a lie.
More important is the issue of whether New England benefited from cheating. Goodell has contended any benefits the Patriots derived were minor at most. But why would the Patriots clandestinely break a rule for eight years, engaging risk, if they never obtained any benefit? They weren't making a PBS documentary! Walsh testified that he took the videotapes directly to Ernie Adams, Belichick's right-hand man. If the tapes merely had been for some kind of historic archive, they would have gone to a video room clerk: Instead they went straight to the top. Walsh told Goodell and Specter that a former New England quarterback said the sign-stealing operation allowed Patriots coaches to know an opponent's defense 75 percent of the time. Note that Goodell, in his news conference about Walsh, never mentioned this revelation. Specter had to point it out.

Belichick has tacitly admitted that the taping helped: His September 2007 statement says, "We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress." Not while the game was in progress -- but later, after Adams analyzed the tapes, in the next meeting. At his press conference, Goodell was asked why the Spygate tapes the league obtained last fall -- the ones rapidly destroyed -- were never shown to anyone. Goodell's answer: "We were in the second week of a season where those tapes potentially could have had competitive consequences." There could not have been "competitive consequences" unless videotapes of sign-stealing can help a team win a game.

It is unfair to the Patriots to say, as some of the sportstalk world is now saying, their Super Bowl run was the result of their cheating. No one who knows football doubts that most of the success New England has achieved in the past eight seasons was earned on the field, by the performance of the players. In some weeks this season, the Patriots were performing so phenomenally well that if all the coaches had left the building at the start of the second quarter, the players would have won the game anyway.

But many NFL contests turn on as little as a few snaps. If cheating allowed the Patriots to come out ahead on a couple of more snaps per game than they otherwise would have, that could shift outcomes in their favor. All four New England Super Bowl appearances of this decade have been decided by three points. Change one or two plays in Arizona this February, and Belichick joins Chuck Noll at 4-0 in the ultimate game; change one or two plays in each of his previous appearances, and Belichick joins Bud Grant and Marv Levy at 0-4. How many NFL owners would surrender a first-round draft choice and a fine equal to one player salary to exchange results over the past eight years with the Patriots? New England kept cheating because it was benefiting from cheating, and the price paid so far is trivial.

Gradually, the NFL is creeping toward honesty on Spygate. Last fall, the league destroyed the evidence and stonewalled at every turn, refusing to say anything about what was in the tapes. This time around, the NFL posted Walsh's handiwork on the Internet for all to see. NFL Network aired Specter's press conference denouncing the league. NFL.com posted Specter's anti-NFL floor statement to the Senate. On NFLN, Rich Eisen, Marshall Faulk and Rod Woodson discussed in detail the unflattering nature of Walsh's revelations. This trend toward openness is a positive sign.

But there is more to be done in reforming the NFL. Until Walsh's name surfaced in The New York Times two days before the Super Bowl, the league refused to say anything about the destroyed New England documents. Slowly Goodell began to answer questions, but he's far from an open book. Specter still had to drag out of Goodell the league's acknowledgement that the Pats' cheating went back to 2000. When a 78-year-old man on chemotherapy has the entire NFL reeling, that means football reform is far more complete.

Is a Mitchell Report for professional football -- an independent commission with prosecutor-like powers -- the answer? That is Specter's contention, and he must be taken seriously, considering how much he and his staff have brought into the light of day in just a few months of part-time investigation of Spygate.

But a Mitchell Report for the NFL would cause this unpleasantness to drag on for years. And the situations are different. Steroid use in baseball was a problem of national scope, because home run hitters with instant biceps were causing teens and young adults to want to inject themselves with steroids, ignoring long-term health risks. Inaction on steroids in baseball could have caused long-term damage to public health. Plus, prior to George Mitchell's assignment, it seemed likely steroid use was pervasive in major league baseball, justifying an investigative commission with a sweeping mandate. With Spygate, the worst-case outcome is a decline of the NFL as America's favorite sport. If the NFL goes into a cycle of decline, this will be awful for those who love the sport, but have no impact on the nation as a whole. And unlike baseball, where signs of steroid use were many, there are no similar indications of pervasive cheating in the NFL. This suggests an independent commission to investigate pro football is not necessary.

What is necessary is a serious suspension for Belichick. Suspension for a season would actually be a mild penalty. Belichick's lack of remorse creates an argument for a lifetime ban. Why should the 99 percent of NFL players, coaches and front-office officials who are honest sportsmen be tarred by association with a few who are not? There's no "right" to coach in the NFL -- if you thumb your nose at the rules, you should be held accountable. Just like everyone breathed a sigh of relief on the day Richard Nixon left office, including his own supporters, everyone who loves football will breathe a huge sigh of relief on the day Belichick is finally punished and the sport's integrity is restored. Suspending Belichick would be a fitting last chapter to Spygate, bringing the matter to a close. Unless, of course, you would prefer that Spygate go on and on and on.



http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...7&sportCat=nfl (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080517&sportCat=nfl)


Great read, thanks for the article.

McCool
05-19-2008, 10:32 PM
that a long freaking post which looks stolen from a another site lol
this guys sounds like an idiot more considering he has a link on the page to the spygate timeline when check out sept 14 th report by mort.
it goes like BB and pats fined and repremanded for taping coaching signals from the sidelines since 2000.

this thread is even more stupid suggesting a HC is not responsible but a LB coach underhim is running a show.bizzare

if that was so critical he fails to address this years 18-1 season where brady threw more TD`s than anyone.

First off . He clearly stated he attatched the article by Gregg Easterbrook.

And secondly. No where in the article does it assume that a LB Coach is " Running the show." It say's "Walsh testified that he took the videotapes directly to Ernie Adams, Belichick's right-hand man. If the tapes merely had been for some kind of historic archive, they would have gone to a video room clerk: Instead they went straight to the top."

And Lastly. I have no idea what your talking about in that last statement. All i know is that Brady achieved that feat by............CHEATING!!!

TomBradyWoot
05-20-2008, 02:14 AM
So basically, the point of that last paragraph (I don't read Easterbrook for obvious reasons) is two things.

1) Simms doesn't feel it's that big of an advantage. Since he said himself they knew every single every call and still lost. This has gone back and forth for months as some players say it helps tremendously, others say it doesn't really help. The actual advantage will be debated and never agreed upon.

And maybe the most important one 2) Parcells did it. Ultimately, he might've taught Belichick how to actually do it.

satz
05-20-2008, 08:19 AM
First off . He clearly stated he attatched the article by Gregg Easterbrook.

And secondly. No where in the article does it assume that a LB Coach is " Running the show." It say's "Walsh testified that he took the videotapes directly to Ernie Adams, Belichick's right-hand man. If the tapes merely had been for some kind of historic archive, they would have gone to a video room clerk: Instead they went straight to the top."

And Lastly. I have no idea what your talking about in that last statement. All i know is that Brady achieved that feat by............CHEATING!!!

1)How is gregeasterbrook became the all knowing and all feeling guy who can judge if some one is feeling remorse or not.I have no clue how he is making a judgement not spending and knowing a person.

2)Saint walsh is always correct come on that is BS. I think you can easter should petition walsh for his saint hood. How the heck is he equating walsh to this high level of saint hood baffles me .

3)This article was edited after my post. He made no reference to espn and copied and pasted the text.hence my comment .

4)At the end of the article he deleted a piece where he claimed that bb has been doing this as a LB coach from the 80s and the hc and oc were just dummy and the LB coach is responsible.He claimed that the gaints won their SB because the LB coach BB did the same thing and ran the show :sidelol:
************Found the piece he deleted
Footnote: In Friday's Washington Post, NFL reporter Mark Maske quotes former Giants quarterback Phil Simms contending that stolen signals are no guarantee of victory: "'I've been in games where we knew every signal, every call by the other team, and we still lost,' Simms said by telephone yesterday. 'We [the Giants] had the San Diego Chargers' signals in 1980. We knew every signal. We knew every play. We were calling out what they were going to do: 'Here comes this. Here comes that.' They still scored 44 points.'" After more Simms quotes, the article moved to other matters. Who was on the New York Giants' coaching staff in 1980? Bill Belichick and Ernie Adams.
********************************


5)Please explain how brady cheated in 08 with some analysis.using the above footnote from phill simmis i say signals do not give a crap of an advantage.This year their were no tapes or anythiing.pls expalin how the steelers took a beat down with a new coach and every team covering their signals.

McCool
05-20-2008, 01:28 PM
Amazing how in denial Pats fans are. Football is a game of inches. And NE gained those inches by stealing them. Some people would like to think that other teams went to the same lengths to video tape other teams calls. There's only one problem with that.....THERE ISN'T ANY PROOF!!! The facts remain. Belichick cheated. And the Pats won three Superbowls. Goodell needs to grow a pair, and throw Belichick out of the league. Those Superbowls should be forfeited as well.

Pats fans can go on and on till their blue in the face, about it didn't help them win. Well, if it didn't prove to be helpfull, why continue to tape teams after the 2001 season. It obviously helped them tremendously, considering they won the Superbowl. Hence, continuing to tape teams for the past 8 years.

Everyone know the Patriots are cheaters. It will never die. In my eyes and in the eyes of the rest of the league and their fans, the New England Patriots are still a franchise that has never won a Superbowl. It's disgusting what they did to tarnish the game of football. It's the responsibility of every football fan to send a messege to Goodell, that we don't want that slimmy piece of crap Belichick in this league anymore. Take the titles and kick his sorry *** out!

satz
05-20-2008, 04:04 PM
Amazing how in denial Pats fans are. Football is a game of inches. And NE gained those inches by stealing them. Some people would like to think that other teams went to the same lengths to video tape other teams calls. There's only one problem with that.....THERE ISN'T ANY PROOF!!! The facts remain. Belichick cheated. And the Pats won three Superbowls. Goodell needs to grow a pair, and throw Belichick out of the league. Those Superbowls should be forfeited as well.

Pats fans can go on and on till their blue in the face, about it didn't help them win. Well, if it didn't prove to be helpfull, why continue to tape teams after the 2001 season. It obviously helped them tremendously, considering they won the Superbowl. Hence, continuing to tape teams for the past 8 years.

Everyone know the Patriots are cheaters. It will never die. In my eyes and in the eyes of the rest of the league and their fans, the New England Patriots are still a franchise that has never won a Superbowl. It's disgusting what they did to tarnish the game of football. It's the responsibility of every football fan to send a messege to Goodell, that we don't want that slimmy piece of crap Belichick in this league anymore. Take the titles and kick his sorry *** out!
I guess you are going to champion matt walsh saint hood then

TomBradyWoot
05-20-2008, 05:49 PM
Amazing how in denial Pats fans are. Football is a game of inches. And NE gained those inches by stealing them. Some people would like to think that other teams went to the same lengths to video tape other teams calls. There's only one problem with that.....THERE ISN'T ANY PROOF!!! The facts remain. Belichick cheated. And the Pats won three Superbowls. Goodell needs to grow a pair, and throw Belichick out of the league. Those Superbowls should be forfeited as well.

Pats fans can go on and on till their blue in the face, about it didn't help them win. Well, if it didn't prove to be helpfull, why continue to tape teams after the 2001 season. It obviously helped them tremendously, considering they won the Superbowl. Hence, continuing to tape teams for the past 8 years.

Everyone know the Patriots are cheaters. It will never die. In my eyes and in the eyes of the rest of the league and their fans, the New England Patriots are still a franchise that has never won a Superbowl. It's disgusting what they did to tarnish the game of football. It's the responsibility of every football fan to send a messege to Goodell, that we don't want that slimmy piece of crap Belichick in this league anymore. Take the titles and kick his sorry *** out!


You :boohoo: way too much.

MR NFLFAN
05-20-2008, 06:40 PM
Amazing how in denial Pats fans are. Football is a game of inches. And NE gained those inches by stealing them. Some people would like to think that other teams went to the same lengths to video tape other teams calls. There's only one problem with that.....THERE ISN'T ANY PROOF!!! The facts remain. Belichick cheated. And the Pats won three Superbowls. Goodell needs to grow a pair, and throw Belichick out of the league. Those Superbowls should be forfeited as well.

Pats fans can go on and on till their blue in the face, about it didn't help them win. Well, if it didn't prove to be helpfull, why continue to tape teams after the 2001 season. It obviously helped them tremendously, considering they won the Superbowl. Hence, continuing to tape teams for the past 8 years.

Everyone know the Patriots are cheaters. It will never die. In my eyes and in the eyes of the rest of the league and their fans, the New England Patriots are still a franchise that has never won a Superbowl. It's disgusting what they did to tarnish the game of football. It's the responsibility of every football fan to send a messege to Goodell, that we don't want that slimmy piece of crap Belichick in this league anymore. Take the titles and kick his sorry *** out!


Arlen is that you? :boohoo:

Seeing your such an expert on Belichick and the Patriots how about you actually back up all your wild claims with some proof (actual film clips of plays where they were helped "tremendously" and they obviously used those signals) then we'll talk. Until then you have the same problem as we you have no PROOF that any of those tapes were even used. Speculation doesn't prove anything.

the becktionary
05-20-2008, 07:18 PM
guys our whole defense could have been sitting in on the Pats offensive sessions and it wouldn't have changed a thing. I tired of hearing bout spy gate

McCool
05-20-2008, 09:48 PM
Arlen is that you? :boohoo:

Seeing your such an expert on Belichick and the Patriots how about you actually back up all your wild claims with some proof (actual film clips of plays where they were helped "tremendously" and they obviously used those signals) then we'll talk. Until then you have the same problem as we you have no PROOF that any of those tapes were even used. Speculation doesn't prove anything.



There's no proof they even used the tapes?


Listen to yourself...They've been taping teams since 2001. If they didn't help, why would they continue to tape teams? Belichick knew what he was doing to be against league rules. The rules are clearly outlined. And he still took a risk to tape teams. Had he not been caught, he would keep on doing it. Theres a reason the rule is there. It gives the team an unfair advantage.

MR NFLFAN
05-21-2008, 12:00 AM
There's no proof they even used the tapes?


Listen to yourself...They've been taping teams since 2001. If they didn't help, why would they continue to tape teams? Belichick knew what he was doing to be against league rules. The rules are clearly outlined. And he still took a risk to tape teams. Had he not been caught, he would keep on doing it. Theres a reason the rule is there. It gives the team an unfair advantage.


Your argument of "if they" and "why would" hold as much water as the "all teams did it". In the end neither YOU or I have any idea of how, when or if they were even used. All the ifs and buts doesn't change that fact.

McCool
05-21-2008, 02:41 PM
Your argument of "if they" and "why would" hold as much water as the "all teams did it". In the end neither YOU or I have any idea of how, when or if they were even used. All the ifs and buts doesn't change that fact.


Your in denial. Your team never would have won a Superbowl if they didn't cheat. I know it, you know it, and the rest of the world knows it.

MR NFLFAN
05-21-2008, 06:54 PM
Your in denial. Your team never would have won a Superbowl if they didn't cheat. I know it, you know it, and the rest of the world knows it.

Arlen It really is you. :yap:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3394809

Trying to steal signals is nothing new in the NFL. All teams have advance scouts who watch and log opponents' personnel groupings and record the signals they see from the sideline. The Patriots, however, took things to another level with their videotaping of opposing coaches.


If Scouts Inc. were running the scouting department of an NFL team, this kind of video would allow us to chart tendencies, personnel variations and play calls in a shorter time. Answers to questions about the opposing team would appear more quickly. What's important to remember, though, is that teams eventually glean this kind of information from film study anyway: The video in question would simply be a shortcut in a process that is already under way. There is an advantage, but it is minimal.

McCool
05-22-2008, 06:19 PM
Arlen It really is you. :yap:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3394809

Trying to steal signals is nothing new in the NFL. All teams have advance scouts who watch and log opponents' personnel groupings and record the signals they see from the sideline. The Patriots, however, took things to another level with their videotaping of opposing coaches.


If Scouts Inc. were running the scouting department of an NFL team, this kind of video would allow us to chart tendencies, personnel variations and play calls in a shorter time. Answers to questions about the opposing team would appear more quickly. What's important to remember, though, is that teams eventually glean this kind of information from film study anyway: The video in question would simply be a shortcut in a process that is already under way. There is an advantage, but it is minimal.


Keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better. None of it changes the fact, that for the past 8 years the Pats have not won a game straight up.

MR NFLFAN
05-22-2008, 07:50 PM
Keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better. None of it changes the fact, that for the past 8 years the Pats have not won a game straight up.

Got any proof to back up your overblown claims there sherlock?

Gator Mike
05-23-2008, 12:30 AM
Keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better. None of it changes the fact, that for the past 8 years the Pats have not won a game straight up.
What about the 18 they won THIS year?

sceeto
05-26-2008, 03:45 AM
Your argument of "if they" and "why would" hold as much water as the "all teams did it". In the end neither YOU or I have any idea of how, when or if they were even used. All the ifs and buts doesn't change that fact.
Can someone say "Asterisks"...

BobDole
05-27-2008, 11:10 AM
people are either in denial, are blindly following their team, or are just totally ignorant. kind of hard to provide evidence when it was all destroyed, for no apparent reason but to hide the truth so the nfl could keep the bundles of money seemingly guilt free they made with their self appointed media darlings winning, but something else is bound to turn up.

but i do have a real question about this. say a new piece of evidence turns up that implicates everyone. everyone on the pats knew and did nothing. how do they implicate these coaches that are now all over the nfl and collegiate levels?

The Myth
06-01-2008, 01:18 PM
Please poeple grow up This is over and you al know it.


http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://toledoblade.com/tigerforce)
http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://toledoblade.com/home)
Article published Friday, May 30, 2008
Game over


IN A SPORTS-mad state like Pennsylvania, it must be easy sometimes to forget that a game is still a game. Still, somebody ought to remind Sen. Arlen Specter. He thinks the cheating scandal in the National Football League is a fit subject for congressional action.

What has become known as Spygate involved the New England Patriots, who were found to be videotaping opposing coaches calling defensive signals from the sideline, which violated NFL rules. The Patriots admitted doing this since 2000 and four of the games involved the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the AFC championship victories at the end of the 2001 and 2004 seasons.

The revelations of cheating shamed the Patriots and for many lovers of the game put a mental asterisk on the Patriots' otherwise superlative performances. The team and its leadership paid a hefty, tangible price too: NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell fined the Patriots $250,000, their coach Bill Belichick $500,000, and the team lost a 2008 first-round draft pick.

The NFL considers the matter closed. The Steelers do as well. Coach Mike Tomlin said: "It's over."

Not for Senator Specter. After meeting with former Patriots employee Matt Walsh recently, he wants more flogging of this dead horse along the lines of the Mitchell inquiry into the use of steroids in baseball. He said he would wait a couple of months to see if the NFL will act before involving Congress.

Congress should stay out of it. The antitrust exemption that football enjoys isn't reason enough for further investigation. Baseball's scandal involved the more serious issue of steroid abuse. This was tawdry cheating of a different order in which the principals have already been punished and a message sent.

Because it's only a game, those who run the game should be left to keep their house in order. The siren has sounded, the games are in the record books, and Senator Specter surely has better things to do. Listen to coach: It's over.

It's time for this sports story line to simply go away




Matt Zimmer
mzimmer@argusleader.com
May 24, 2008 New England Patriots receiver Wes Welker was a guest on ESPN News on Friday. They introduced him, asked him four questions about "Spygate" - none of which he answered directly - and that was that.

It was a waste of his time (and theirs, and mine).

Seriously, people, how sick are we of this story?
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/06/adlabel_horz-1.gif
Spygate. The Patriots legacy is supposed to be tarnished because some interns filmed coaches giving hand signals?

I'm not really defending what they did, but anyone who isn't completely naive knows that cheating is, for better or worse, part of sports. Everyone does it; not just Bill Belichick. Whoever said, If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin' was being serious.

Scandals having "gate" attached to the end. It was called Watergate because that was the name of the apartment/hotel complex, people. If Nixon's spies had been caught somewhere else, would this story be called "Spy-Radisson"? It doesn't make any sense. Stop it.


411's NFL Round Up 5.27.08
Posted by Emmett Wilks (http://www.411mania.com/user_profile.php?user_id=2231) on 05.27.2008
Joey Porter really has some issues with the New England Patriots. Porter is suggesting that the Patriots should have asterisks next to their Super Bowl wins following the revelations of the Spygate scandal. Porter, who now plays for the Dolphins, was on two Pittsburgh Steelers teams that lost to the Patriots in the AFC championship games (2002 and 2005). Also, he maintains that other players in the NFL feel the same sentiment regarding the Patriots. While I feel very deeply for Porter's point, he does come off as somewhat whiny. The Patriots were better teams in those two games, that's it. And the sad fact remains that other teams were more than likely partaking the filming of opponents' defensive signals. The Patriots were the ones that got caught. Has it put a black-eye on the organization? You bet. Has it forever tainted Bill Belichick's legacy? Of course. Does it mean they did not earn their Super Bowls. Heck no. They are still the best team of this decade, Spygate or not.

Spygate a scandal? Yawner is more like it

By Jim Armstrong
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 05/20/2008 05:56:02 PM MDT

Now that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has decreed that Spygate is yesterday's news, you figure there's a chance we can get on with our lives?

I never got Spygate. Oh, I could see the controversy, but having witnessed scouts for years checking out coaches' signals with binoculars, I never got how it came to be viewed by some as a scandal for the ages.
The truth is, it wasn't.
In the end, it was all about who cheated, not to what lengths he went to cheat. It was all about putting it to the NFL's most unpopular coach and the league's most despised team.
In the end, it was about jealousy. Not all about jealousy maybe, but mostly about it.
No? Then riddle me this: If, say, the Arizona Cardinals had been the ones caught videotaping another team's signals, do you think it would have become a federal case? No way. It would have been the eighth paragraph in a notes column.
Back in the day, the Broncos were deemed by the league office to be circumventing the salary cap. The Steelers were, too, and each team was docked a draft choice.
Do we remember those incidents? If you live in Denver or Pittsburgh, maybe, but not in other cities. The teams screwed up, they were docked by the league office, and they moved on. The Patriots? What do you say we let them do the same.

HurriPhin
06-03-2008, 01:36 PM
What about the 18 they won THIS year?

Doesn't really matter 'cause they didn't win #19 :sidelol:

MattM
06-14-2008, 08:35 PM
In addition to Spygate, what about all the other signs of potential cheating by the Pats, like:

1. The worst officiating in the League seems to take place when they play and it is almost always in one direction--theirs. I challenge Pats fans to name a close game they lost on a controversial call (and by that, I mean controversial OUTSIDE New England) late in a game over their run. I can name a whole bunch that they won that way, but let's hear about some they lost due to the hankies flying or not flying then--on another board, they couldn't do it and I suspect they won't be able to here, either, SINCE IT'S NEVER HAPPENED.

2. Last year there were also reports of extra frequencies on their headsets (2 more than the League allowed--golly gee, I wonder what those were for?);

3. Speaking of headsest, Rod Marinelli and Jack Del Rio's claims (among others) that their headsets always seemed to go out at Gillette at inopportune times.

4. Their abuse of the injury report, combined with a known HGH user on the team in Rodney Harrison and a Methuselah-laden LB corps with huge melons (a known sign of HGH use, called "the Bloat", is the development of large heads) makes me at least wonder if it's no coincidence that they abuse the injury report--after all, if they were honest about it perhaps the fact that they have players on HGH might become more apparent when guys heal in half the time it normally takes to heal from an injury.

5. The recent NYT article quoting members of the League's competition committee saying that basically almost every time there was an allegation of suspected cheating to the committee it involved New England.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we find out 20 years from now that the cheating went a whole lot farther than what we now know. Not surprised at all.....

MR NFLFAN
06-15-2008, 11:53 AM
In addition to Spygate, what about all the other signs of potential cheating by the Pats, like:

1. The worst officiating in the League seems to take place when they play and it is almost always in one direction--theirs. I challenge Pats fans to name a close game they lost on a controversial call (and by that, I mean controversial OUTSIDE New England) late in a game over their run. I can name a whole bunch that they won that way, but let's hear about some they lost due to the hankies flying or not flying then--on another board, they couldn't do it and I suspect they won't be able to here, either, SINCE IT'S NEVER HAPPENED.

2. Last year there were also reports of extra frequencies on their headsets (2 more than the League allowed--golly gee, I wonder what those were for?);

3. Speaking of headsest, Rod Marinelli and Jack Del Rio's claims (among others) that their headsets always seemed to go out at Gillette at inopportune times.

4. Their abuse of the injury report, combined with a known HGH user on the team in Rodney Harrison and a Methuselah-laden LB corps with huge melons (a known sign of HGH use, called "the Bloat", is the development of large heads) makes me at least wonder if it's no coincidence that they abuse the injury report--after all, if they were honest about it perhaps the fact that they have players on HGH might become more apparent when guys heal in half the time it normally takes to heal from an injury.

5. The recent NYT article quoting members of the League's competition committee saying that basically almost every time there was an allegation of suspected cheating to the committee it involved New England.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we find out 20 years from now that the cheating went a whole lot farther than what we now know. Not surprised at all.....

You forgot that they control the weather too.

:boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:

MattM
06-15-2008, 01:05 PM
You forgot that they control the weather too.

:boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:

Got anything on the substance of my post, smart-***? Or just more one-liners that help you kill the pain of the worst choke job in SB history? I think of you every time I watch that Giants game over and over and how you must be crying yourself to sleep over it.....:lol::sidelol:

MR NFLFAN
06-15-2008, 09:24 PM
Got anything on the substance of my post, smart-***? Or just more one-liners that help you kill the pain of the worst choke job in SB history? I think of you every time I watch that Giants game over and over and how you must be crying yourself to sleep over it.....:lol::sidelol:

Matt
You have got to seek help with these conspiracy obsessions of yours.

When I think of historic choke jobs in SB's Four straight yrs come to mind along with the words WIDE RIGHT!

:up:

MattM
06-16-2008, 09:23 AM
Matt
You have got to seek help with these conspiracy obsessions of yours.

When I think of historic choke jobs in SB's Four straight yrs come to mind along with the words WIDE RIGHT!

:up:

Ask anyone (and I mean ANYONE) and they'll tell you that the Pats' choke job this year, with an undefeated season on the line and being favored by double digits, is the largest choke job in NFL history, bar none, so get out of here with that Wide Right crap and our 4 losses--we're long over that in Buffalo.

I also notice that you still haven't responded to the FACTS that I laid out above--got nothing on the substance, as usual, I see.....

MR NFLFAN
06-16-2008, 09:30 AM
Your personal speculations are far from facts and quite frankly there not worth a response.

MattM
06-16-2008, 08:12 PM
In addition to Spygate, what about all the other signs of potential cheating by the Pats, like:

1. The worst officiating in the League seems to take place when they play and it is almost always in one direction--theirs. I challenge Pats fans to name a close game they lost on a controversial call (and by that, I mean controversial OUTSIDE New England) late in a game over their run. I can name a whole bunch that they won that way, but let's hear about some they lost due to the hankies flying or not flying then--on another board, they couldn't do it and I suspect they won't be able to here, either, SINCE IT'S NEVER HAPPENED.

2. Last year there were also reports of extra frequencies on their headsets (2 more than the League allowed--golly gee, I wonder what those were for?);

3. Speaking of headsest, Rod Marinelli and Jack Del Rio's claims (among others) that their headsets always seemed to go out at Gillette at inopportune times.

4. Their abuse of the injury report, combined with a known HGH user on the team in Rodney Harrison and a Methuselah-laden LB corps with huge melons (a known sign of HGH use, called "the Bloat", is the development of large heads) makes me at least wonder if it's no coincidence that they abuse the injury report--after all, if they were honest about it perhaps the fact that they have players on HGH might become more apparent when guys heal in half the time it normally takes to heal from an injury.

5. The recent NYT article quoting members of the League's competition committee saying that basically almost every time there was an allegation of suspected cheating to the committee it involved New England.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we find out 20 years from now that the cheating went a whole lot farther than what we now know. Not surprised at all.....

Please enlighten me as to what in the above is not factual. Actually, if you read all of the above, especially the highlighted parts-THEY'RE ALL FACTS--the only one that might be my opinion is 1. on the horrible officiating your opponents routinely receive, and that's why I challenged you to name a game that you lost on a controversial call (controversial outside NE) late in the game to match the oh so many you've won that way (law of averages anyone?) and no Pats' fan I've met has been able to do that yet.....

TomBradyWoot
06-16-2008, 11:38 PM
Ask anyone (and I mean ANYONE) and they'll tell you that the Pats' choke job this year, with an undefeated season on the line and being favored by double digits, is the largest choke job in NFL history, bar none, so get out of here with that Wide Right crap and our 4 losses--we're long over that in Buffalo.

I also notice that you still haven't responded to the FACTS that I laid out above--got nothing on the substance, as usual, I see.....


So the Patriots Super Bowl loss is worse because they were awesome enough to go undefeated? Yeah right. The Bills had 4 shots and BLEW THEM ALL:sidelol::sidelol:

TomBradyWoot
06-16-2008, 11:43 PM
Besides, you're just repeating - as you stated yourself - REPORTS. They're unsubstantiated rumors that came out after Spygate that allegedly everyone had been sitting on. Bull.

How about the rumors the Colts pump sound into their system? Or how about EVERY SINGLE TEAM abuses the injury report. I'll bring up when the Pats played the Falcons a few years ago and Michael Vick was listed as "questionable" the entire week and Atlanta kept saying he'll start he'll start he'll start. Game comes and poof, Matt Schaub is playing Vick declared inactive.

Post something legit and maybe you'll get the responses you want. The fact is you'll just never get over spygate which is fine by me really. If you want to obsess over it to hide the fact your ****ty team loses to the Pats every year feel free. That must be the reason you keep bringing back to life old threads. (Seriously now, this thread was almost 2 weeks ago and you randomly post in it?)

HughC
06-17-2008, 12:18 AM
I think the two of you should get a room, fight it out, and then have a great make-up lovemaking session.

Mr NFL Fan is blindly backing the wrong horse in this race but is actually making (slightly) better logic. MattM, everybody hates the Patriots - don't worry, that's not going to change. But you lose credibilty when you quote rumors and then call them facts.

1. Every team, and every one of their fans, thinks they got bad calls by the refs - in every single game. If you're only looking for calls that went against your favorite team, that's what you're going to find. If you're only looking for ref's calls that went in favor of the Pats - yep, that's all you're going to find too.

2. Extra frequencies? Yeah, sure it's possible, but pigs flying is possible too. To me it'd be more of a distraction than a help, two guys yelling in my ear while I'm trying to read the defense and call the play, but that's just my opinion. Hadn't heard that one before, but that's not a fact; not even a rumor - just wild speculation.

3. Yep, Marinelli and Del Rio both said something. And when I did a search for Marinelli and headset, the first thing that came up was his headset going out against ... the Bears; so it happens elsewhere too. Del Rio also said in the same interview that he wished somebody had speared Brady on a play; obviously he was a bit over the top that day. The headset was out for an entire half, meaning both teams were without headsets for a very long time. I'd buy into the conspiracy more if it happened only for a crucial third down play. Also seems to me I remember certain 49er team that was a lot more infamous for not only having headsets go out, but being the first to script their initial fifteen plays.

4. The guy in that story, Hobbs practiced and played. If he didn't practice, or didn't play, then that would be a story - like Ahman Green with the Texans when he wasn't on the injury report but then was out at game time. I think the NFL fined the Broncos once for the injury report thing, but since it's only a $25k fine I don't believe it's a huge issue. Those injury reports are for gamblers and fantasy football players - not a team's opponents. As far as HGH goes, I do believe they are not the first (nor will they be the last) to have a player suspended (Shawn Merriman). I have more questions about the Pittsburgh team doctor than I do of an over the hill safety. Not sure about the forehead thing, hadn't noticed that on any NE players but I'll be sure to check it out. The only ones that come to mind are a couple of baseball players.

5. I saw that too, this one is the closest to fact. However, as a general rule of thumb I want to see either one person go on the record or two unnamed sources before I take an accusation seriously. For all I know one unnamed source could be a guy with an axe to grind, or a complete lie by the reporter. Plus, nobody has followed up that guy's claim either.


Patriots broke the rules. They got penalized. Penalties should have been more severe. It's not going to change, it's over. We can all hate them not only for winning, or dressing badly, or looking down at us, but also for breaking rules.

I hate the Patriots. They come in to my house with their fans cheering and we can't shut them up because they win. I can't stand that. But they don't win because of extra frequencies; they won because they have better players, they executed better, their coaches had a better game plan, and they called better plays.

Just like the Dolphins did when New England lost 18 straight here.

I look forward to beating them on the field. Making excuses for not being able to beat them just sounds like a whiny baby that needs a nap and a pacifier.

Itsdahumidity
06-17-2008, 10:19 AM
2. Extra frequencies? Yeah, sure it's possible, but pigs flying is possible too. To me it'd be more of a distraction than a help, two guys yelling in my ear while I'm trying to read the defense and call the play, but that's just my opinion. Hadn't heard that one before, but that's not a fact; not even a rumor - just wild speculation.


Mort reported this throughout last season (about the rumors being out there). Others then piggybacked him. Finally, goodell claimed during his last PC that their investigation :lol: found no evidence.

How can extra frequencies be a distraction if this cheating franchise

a) must've practiced using them to the point of it becoming second nature

b) used the extra frequencies after the one frequency allowed by the league, which supposedly lasts only fifteen(15) seconds. The play clock is what, 40 and sometimes 25 seconds so at the very least they have ten extra seconds to tell brady the defense's coverage or when a blitz is coming.
_____________________________________________________________





I mentioned this before, ever wonder why the Taintriots would go to a no huddle? Not a hurry-up because that would imply that they have mismatches and the defense is tired. Nope, go straight to the line of scrimmage see the formation, steal the signals and relay the defensive play to brady. Again, do this enough times and it becomes quite simple.

MattM is right, the 18-1 choke job is the absolute worst. Yeah his team lost four straight and that's bad, but as of today all fans can say there's no questions about the bills SB losses. The same cannot be said w/100% certainty about Taintriots. These silly fans will claim after Spygate I their team stopped cheating.

Okay let's see:
- these poor fans believe the nfl had officials at every Taintriots game (right. Yeah, goodell was so concerned about cheating & ruled w/ an iron fist right? So much so that he admitted to have only looked at ONE of the tapes handed in before destroying them.)

- about the tapes supposedly turned in after SpyGate I. We were told there was 6-8 tapes right? But the cheater, when backed into a corner finally admitted to have been taping since game 1 of his Taintriots coaching career. Taping every game from 2000 to 2006 equals 112 reg sea games and they did this to create a library for future reference as well. But only turned in 6-8 tapes? But they didn't use tape info this past season?

So back to the bills/taintriots comparison. I highly doubt these cheaters went cold turkey and stopped their disgusting cheating ways especially in the biggest game of the year. So the bottom line is your team probably cheated (signals, frequencies etc) and STILL lost. Your team has ownership of the biggest choke job in the history of the nfl.

MR NFLFAN
06-17-2008, 04:11 PM
I heard that McDaniels sent in the defensive call telepathically to brady. Brady then would relay that thru paranormal brain wave transmissions to each lineman.


:sidelol: :sidelol:

BobDole
06-30-2008, 12:13 PM
I heard that McDaniels sent in the defensive call telepathically to brady. Brady then would relay that thru paranormal brain wave transmissions to each lineman.


:sidelol: :sidelol:


you are super annoying. sarcasm doesn't imply that you know anything. in your case, it just makes you look like you are trying to convince yourself that your team never cheated. you cheated - you won super bowls - you were elitist and smug about it - and when you get caught and lose all credibility you can't even admit you were wrong?

ask yourself one question. why am i doing this on a miami dolphins website? that should help. get a grip.

feelthepain
06-30-2008, 11:03 PM
Your argument of "if they" and "why would" hold as much water as the "all teams did it". In the end neither YOU or I have any idea of how, when or if they were even used. All the ifs and buts doesn't change that fact.

Well we do know, tapes were destroyed by Goodell, tapes no one saw but Goodell and the Pats! We know The Pats were fined, we know BB was fined, we know the Pats lost a first round DP. That's a lot of evidence that proves guilt for an accusation you claim "holds no water"!! I think there is more then enough evidence that proves the Pats cheated. I think the fact that BB and the Pats fans are the only people on the planet that believe the Pats didn't cheat and cheat hard. And the evidence is anything but in BB and Pat fans favor.