PDA

View Full Version : Was Barrack Obama raised a Muslim?



Dolphin39
06-16-2008, 12:03 PM
In light of Barrack Obama's own comments, and his strong support for muslims, as evidenced in his own words, (when the winds turn against them, he will support them), this is very disturbing.

http://www.rapturealert.com/2008/061508obamamuslim.asp

retired opfinistic
06-16-2008, 12:04 PM
That would sure explain all the 'Changes' he's proposing.

Blackocrates
06-16-2008, 02:44 PM
Give it up already, he's a christian. Why do you hate christians so much?

Dolphin39
06-16-2008, 03:23 PM
Give it up already, he's a christian. Why do you hate christians so much?

That's what Barrack Obama should be asked. :up:

Tetragrammaton
06-16-2008, 04:17 PM
In light of Barrack Obama's own comments, and his strong support for muslims, as evidenced in his own words, (when the winds turn against them, he will support them), this is very disturbing.

http://www.rapturealert.com/2008/061508obamamuslim.asp

Stop it. Stop being hateful. It is so silly.

Read the Audacity of Hope before you misquote it.


"Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

What is wrong with defending the interests of a minority group in the United States against racism and violence?

Do you have a problem with "specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something"? I have explained this quote to you before, and you either ignored it or chose to forget it.

Blackocrates
06-16-2008, 05:05 PM
This is one of the dumbest attacks I've seen on Obama. He has to deal with all of the Rev. Wright stuff, a christian minister, and his own affiliation with the christian church for 20 years. Yet people still want to make up the muslim stuff. So which is it, are you going to attack him for this made up muslim stuff or attack him for his christian church. He can't be both, so you can only attack him on one of the two.

Either way I feel sorry for Obama because his own people, christians, are after him with pitch forks ready to burn him at the stake. Christians can't hate enough these days.

Blackocrates
06-16-2008, 05:10 PM
What is wrong with defending the interests of a minority group in the United States against racism and violence?



I guess I'm a muslim as well, because if our country were to turn against american muslims I would stand with them.

I can't believe all of the open hatred for muslims out there. There's so much hatred for muslims that the haters are just randomly assigning the label of being a muslim to anybody.

Tetragrammaton
06-16-2008, 05:54 PM
I think we would be able to get through this a lot easier if people admitted they didn't like him because:

A. He is black.
B. He holds leftist views.
C. He isn't from their party.

None of this flag pin, is he a Muslim, hand over the heart during a song where most people don't put a hand over their heart. It just gets tiring.

WSE
06-16-2008, 06:10 PM
another racist thread about Obama that takes quotes out of context

whats new

and I thought this Obama muslim stuff was long gone. I guess some people just cant let it go.

WSE
06-16-2008, 06:13 PM
and I just watched that video

he was in a Indonesian PUBLIC SCHOOL before he went to a Christian Private school in Indonesia.

lol. That video was false garbage. Yea, we cant trust a man because he went to a public school overseas when living there for a couple years.

WSE
06-16-2008, 06:15 PM
oh, and they used that video that idiots say Obama did not put on his hand on the heart during the pledge, when in reality it was not the pledge but the star spangled banner, where most people don't put their hands on their hearts

Dolphin39
06-17-2008, 08:19 AM
Stop it. Stop being hateful. It is so silly.

Read the Audacity of Hope before you misquote it.



What is wrong with defending the interests of a minority group in the United States against racism and violence?

Do you have a problem with "specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something"? I have explained this quote to you before, and you either ignored it or chose to forget it.

I believe Obama needs to recognize the need and importance of criminal alien profiling, as it relates to our national security. Make no mistake, there are thousands of these "citizens" who are intent on destroying America.

With the House and Senate controlled by the Democratic liberals, trying their best to tie the hands of the law enforcement community, even the most basic of surveilance practices cannot be protected. Is this Barrack's way of supporting "minorities" when the evil winds blow?

Being in law enforcement, I have an insight into the subject. However, I'm sure because I'm a conservative, it will only be subjected to ridicule and disbelief, especially by those who swoon to Barrack Obama's pretty words.

emeraldfin
06-17-2008, 08:35 AM
Whats wrong with being a Muslim?

Blackocrates
06-17-2008, 04:46 PM
I believe Obama needs to recognize the need and importance of criminal alien profiling, as it relates to our national security. Make no mistake, there are thousands of these "citizens" who are intent on destroying America.

With the House and Senate controlled by the Democratic liberals, trying their best to tie the hands of the law enforcement community, even the most basic of surveilance practices cannot be protected. Is this Barrack's way of supporting "minorities" when the evil winds blow?

Being in law enforcement, I have an insight into the subject. However, I'm sure because I'm a conservative, it will only be subjected to ridicule and disbelief, especially by those who swoon to Barrack Obama's pretty words.

You conveniently ignored the BS you spewed about Obama being a muslim I see.

Also what's criminal alien profiling? I ask this in a facetious manner because I know what it means. It's completely illegal! Which scares the poop out of me because you're in law enforcement and you apparently want to break the law to serve some sort of illegal agenda. I can't count how many cases I've read where law enforcement officials intentionally break the law because they want to. I can't say I'm surprised by this, I've come to expect the worst in law enforcement.

dlockz
06-17-2008, 05:06 PM
You conveniently ignored the BS you spewed about Obama being a muslim I see.

Also what's criminal alien profiling? I ask this in a facetious manner because I know what it means. It's completely illegal! Which scares the poop out of me because you're in law enforcement and you apparently want to break the law to serve some sort of illegal agenda. I can't count how many cases I've read where law enforcement officials intentionally break the law because they want to. I can't say I'm surprised by this, I've come to expect the worst in law enforcement.


I find it amazing that people want to trample on basic rights of people in the name of fighting terrorism. A real shame that people have used the tragedy of 911 to push thier own agenda. Im still trying to figure out why i am going back to Iraq since this country never attacked us or had the capability to attack us. I have no problem with us being in afghanistan or even Saudi since the majority of attackers were thier citizens.

Tetragrammaton
06-17-2008, 05:49 PM
I believe Obama needs to recognize the need and importance of criminal alien profiling, as it relates to our national security. Make no mistake, there are thousands of these "citizens" who are intent on destroying America.

Criminal profiling has nothing to do with his quote. He meant that he would make sure there wasn't an extreme xenophobic reaction, like we saw during World War II. Surely you would agree with him in this regard.


With the House and Senate controlled by the Democratic liberals, trying their best to tie the hands of the law enforcement community, even the most basic of surveilance practices cannot be protected. Is this Barrack's way of supporting "minorities" when the evil winds blow?

The Democrats voted for the PATRIOT Act. Also, there are maybe twenty liberals in both Houses of Congress combined.


Being in law enforcement, I have an insight into the subject. However, I'm sure because I'm a conservative, it will only be subjected to ridicule and disbelief, especially by those who swoon to Barrack Obama's pretty words.

You think you are going to be ridiculed, so you ridicule supporters of Obama? We aren't being swooned by words just like you aren't a fascist. Patronizing doesn't work.

umpalu
06-18-2008, 03:15 AM
who the hell cares if he was raised Muslim or not? seriously people. You act as if all Muslims dream of growing up to be suicide bombers. In many ways we as "Christian Americans" are as ignorant as the radical Muslim out there, so a sane Muslim probably make better sense than either of our groups anyways.

xMChemicalRx
07-20-2008, 11:45 PM
In light of Barrack Obama's own comments, and his strong support for muslims, as evidenced in his own words, (when the winds turn against them, he will support them), this is very disturbing.

http://www.rapturealert.com/2008/061508obamamuslim.asp


Please refrain from attacking the poster, this is a violation of TOS

You want Mccain to be president because he supports Isreal in every way.
Mccain just recently went to the middle east to try to come up of a way to make peace in the middle east. Okay, that's admirable but why does he only talk to Isreal's leaders? HOW THE HELL can peace be achieved if you only talk to one side? Gee, I wonder what side he's on. It also doesn't help that McCain supported everything for Isreal when he was in the senate.

Obama is always going to the middle east and he plans to talk to both sides.

Please stop trying to force your views in a seemingly sleek way. Dolphin fans are way smarter then that and can see right through you.

SpurzN703
07-21-2008, 11:41 AM
I think we would be able to get through this a lot easier if people admitted they didn't like him because:

A. He is black.
B. He holds leftist views.
C. He isn't from their party.

None of this flag pin, is he a Muslim, hand over the heart during a song where most people don't put a hand over their heart. It just gets tiring.

Half black actually :)

COMEBACKRICKY
07-21-2008, 12:21 PM
You want Mccain to be president because he supports Isreal in every way.
Mccain just recently went to the middle east to try to come up of a way to make peace in the middle east. Okay, that's admirable but why does he only talk to Isreal's leaders? HOW THE HELL can peace be achieved if you only talk to one side? Gee, I wonder what side he's on. It also doesn't help that McCain supported everything for Isreal when he was in the senate.

Obama is always going to the middle east and he plans to talk to both sides.

Please stop trying to force your views in a seemingly sleek way. Dolphin fans are way smarter then that and can see right through you.


The reason behind the "peace talks" is to screw the Palestinians out of as much land as possible while seemingly doing in it in a legit way. Obama has voiced his opinion on this issue, and he seems to be siding with the Israelis in that he does not support the "terrorists" that fight against them. Obama has even vowed to try to give the majority of the land to Israel, and wants to give sole possession of Jerusalem to the Israelis.

Now, back to the subject on hand. I dont mind the name calling as much, we have already accepted that sort of thing when two candidates run for president. Whats more saddening, however, is the racism and the deterioration of image that the Muslim people have been subjected to. I agree with the rest of you in that it has become quite shameful how people are using the term Muslim like its a crime. Its now akin to being labeled a witch, a stigma that the public will refuse to remove. Now when someone thinks of Islam, they think of DEATH, SUICIDE BOMBERS, and CORRUPTION.. These negative connotations and bigotry have been so ingrained into American culture now that Obama had to reiterate time and time again that he is not Muslim just to save his "image"

ih8brady
07-21-2008, 02:36 PM
The reason behind the "peace talks" is to screw the Palestinians out of as much land as possible while seemingly doing in it in a legit way. Obama has voiced his opinion on this issue, and he seems to be siding with the Israelis in that he does not support the "terrorists" that fight against them. Obama has even vowed to try to give the majority of the land to Israel, and wants to give sole possession of Jerusalem to the Israelis.

Now, back to the subject on hand. I dont mind the name calling as much, we have already accepted that sort of thing when two candidates run for president. Whats more saddening, however, is the racism and the deterioration of image that the Muslim people have been subjected to. I agree with the rest of you in that it has become quite shameful how people are using the term Muslim like its a crime. Its now akin to being labeled a witch, a stigma that the public will refuse to remove. Now when someone thinks of Islam, they think of DEATH, SUICIDE BOMBERS, and CORRUPTION.. These negative connotations and bigotry have been so ingrained into American culture now that Obama had to reiterate time and time again that he is not Muslim just to save his "image"

But if you read his books and speeches, he urges his fellow citizens to understand and support the rights of Muslim-Americans instead of hating them. And why shouldn't he reiterate the fact that he is Christian and not Muslim, because it's the truth.

BlueFin
07-23-2008, 11:18 AM
who the hell cares if he was raised Muslim or not? seriously people. You act as if all Muslims dream of growing up to be suicide bombers. In many ways we as "Christian Americans" are as ignorant as the radical Muslim out there, so a sane Muslim probably make better sense than either of our groups anyways.

It seems you may have missed the television reporting women and children dancing all over the streets (in the middle east)in joy after 911?

This is not just a case of radicals attacking us.

No, I don't want a muslim as Commander-in-Chief of the USA, or someone who spent a large part of their life as one.

The Koran says that they can lie about their beliefs if it is a part of jihad.

BlueFin
07-23-2008, 11:33 AM
To answer the threadstarter, here is an investigative piece done on the subject that you will find interesting:


Yet the accumulated research from primary sources who knew Obama from his childhood indicate that he was a devout Muslim, the son of a devout Muslim, the step-son of a devout Muslim and the grandson and namesake ("Hussein") of a devout Muslim. He was registered in school as a Muslim and demonstrated his ability to chant praise to Allah in impressive Arab-accented tones even as an adult.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12745.htm


According to Tine Hahiyary (http://laotze.blogspot.com/2007/01/tracking-down-obama-in-indonesia-part-5.html), one of Obama's teachers and the principal from 1971 through 1989, Barry actively took part in the Islamic religious lessons during his time at the school. "I remembered that he had studied "mengaji" (recitation of the Quran)" Tine said.

xMChemicalRx
07-23-2008, 08:28 PM
It seems you may have missed the television reporting women and children dancing all over the streets (in the middle east)in joy after 911?

This is not just a case of radicals attacking us.

No, I don't want a muslim as Commander-in-Chief of the USA, or someone who spent a large part of their life as one.

The Koran says that they can lie about their beliefs if it is a part of jihad.

LOL. So, if Obama is lying about not being a Muslim he must be planning Jihad? Also please know your facts a little better. Over 90% of Muslims will tell you that they believe 9/11 was morally wrong. They will also tell you that jihad did not happen on 9/11. It was murder.

Your claim that "it's not just a case of radicals attacking us" is very disturbing, racist, and completely wrong. I must be planning jihad because I'm a Palestinian Muslim in the Air Force. Well, at least according to you I am.

FinFatale
07-24-2008, 11:25 AM
LOL. So, if Obama is lying about not being a Muslim he must be planning Jihad? Also please know your facts a little better. Over 90% of Muslims will tell you that they believe 9/11 was morally wrong. They will also tell you that jihad did not happen on 9/11. It was murder.

Your claim that "it's not just a case of radicals attacking us" is very disturbing, racist, and completely wrong. I must be planning jihad because I'm a Palestinian Muslim in the Air Force. Well, at least according to you I am.


I don't believe you should be stating something as fact based on your own opinion. If you have a reference that proves as a FACT that over 90 % of Muslims will tell you that they believe that 9/11 was morally wrong I'd be interested in it. Thanks! I like to look into things myself. I'd also be interested in your reference that these same 90 % of Muslims will tell you that jihad did not happen on 9/11.

BlueFin
07-24-2008, 11:30 AM
LOL. So, if Obama is lying about not being a Muslim he must be planning Jihad? Also please know your facts a little better. Over 90% of Muslims will tell you that they believe 9/11 was morally wrong. They will also tell you that jihad did not happen on 9/11. It was murder.

Your claim that "it's not just a case of radicals attacking us" is very disturbing, racist, and completely wrong. I must be planning jihad because I'm a Palestinian Muslim in the Air Force. Well, at least according to you I am.

And where do you get your numbers? What polling have you done to indicate 90% of Muslims feel this way?

I simply stated that the video from the middle east showed Women and Children dancing in the streets over the "murder" as you call it.

And, if Obama is lying about being a Muslim, that would be grounds enough for him to not receive votes in my opinion.

And no, I do not think all muslims are extremists, but I do think they are the fundimentalists of their religion that are not being hypocrites to their religion.

I'll give you an example, I went into a store after a Dolphins game one time to buy a 6 pack, it was an establishment owned by a muslim (he told me this himself, anyway, he stated that he did not drink because it was against his religion, but apparently it is ok for him to poison others by selling it.

Where is the Muslim outrage in this country over the supposed few who hijacked their religion? Where is the million Muslim march on the Mall in Washington D.C. sending a message to all Muslims in the Arabic world condemning the killings of human beings in the name of Allah? Where is the cry to raise the concsiousness of the rest of the Muslim world about their hijacked religion? If something of yours had been stolen, wouldn't you scream to the world that someone had hijacked it?

Where are the voices of Western Muslims, particulary the American Muslim community, sending a clear message to the Arabic world that we are Americans, when you attack one of us you attack all of us?

If we saw these type of things occuring, we in America could start buying their sincererity. Instead of all this talk about what a peaceful religion Islam is, why don't they show us that the majority of Muslims are "truly" against these killings being spread around the world in the name of Allah.

FinFatale
07-24-2008, 12:35 PM
LOL. So, if Obama is lying about not being a Muslim he must be planning Jihad? Also please know your facts a little better. Over 90% of Muslims will tell you that they believe 9/11 was morally wrong. They will also tell you that jihad did not happen on 9/11. It was murder.

Your claim that "it's not just a case of radicals attacking us" is very disturbing, racist, and completely wrong. I must be planning jihad because I'm a Palestinian Muslim in the Air Force. Well, at least according to you I am.


What is your definition of jihad? Lets start there. I have referenced a link to an article that disagrees with you and the "90 % " you speak of referring to 9/11 not being jihad.
as a Muslim I am sure I don't need to tell you there are four different kinds of jihad...anyway I am sure you will find the link interesting although it doesn't support your opinon.
thanks!
http://www.nixoncenter.org/publications/monographs/Leiken_Bearers_of_Global_Jihad.pdf

FinFatale
07-24-2008, 12:42 PM
I must add that I agree that 9/11 to me was outright murder but to the terrorists it was an act against what they call the " infidels".
Can't jihad also be an act of murder to someone that doesn't subscribe to the fanatical actions of the jihad?? just a question.

FinFatale
07-24-2008, 12:43 PM
oh and one more thing, not everyone in the US or the world is either a Christian or a Muslim.
;)

Tetragrammaton
07-24-2008, 01:14 PM
BlueFin, why are you wrong all the time? I, as well as others, have taught you that you were wrong.

A. His father was not a devout Muslim. He was an atheist. His mother was secular, although she read from several different religious books.
B. Obama's school in Indonesia was secular. This was confirmed by the headmaster.

Your link was to a hateful, anti-American website. Whenever a site insists on calling him Barack Hussein Obama you instantly know they have no credibility.

I defy you to find one thing wrong with the religion of Islam. Go ahead.

I have my problems with Islam. It foolishly believes that there is a God and that we were created in His image. But then again, I have that problem with all religions.

BlueFin
07-24-2008, 04:01 PM
BlueFin, why are you wrong all the time? I, as well as others, have taught you that you were wrong.

A. His father was not a devout Muslim. He was an atheist. His mother was secular, although she read from several different religious books.
B. Obama's school in Indonesia was secular. This was confirmed by the headmaster.

Your link was to a hateful, anti-American website. Whenever a site insists on calling him Barack Hussein Obama you instantly know they have no credibility.

I defy you to find one thing wrong with the religion of Islam. Go ahead.

I have my problems with Islam. It foolishly believes that there is a God and that we were created in His image. But then again, I have that problem with all religions.

So your suggesting that its wrong to call someone by their real name?

As far as the rest of your psycobabble, you've proven nothing, quite the contrary actually.

WSE
07-24-2008, 04:43 PM
So your suggesting that its wrong to call someone by their real name?

As far as the rest of your psycobabble, you've proven nothing, quite the contrary actually.

when you use somebody's birth given name against them, it is racist.

name is something nobody can control. Using names as a means of attack is laughable.

Tetragrammaton
07-24-2008, 06:35 PM
So your suggesting that its wrong to call someone by their real name?

When the right starts calling him John Sidney McCain, then we will talk. Until then, you are trying to be coy and it is shameful.

BlueFin
07-24-2008, 09:26 PM
When the right starts calling him John Sidney McCain, then we will talk. Until then, you are trying to be coy and it is shameful.

I realize at the ripe old age of 20, that this is probably your first presidential election, but in my 45 years they have frequently referred to politicians by all 3 names.

Franklin Delano Roosvelt
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Richard Milhous Nixon
James Earl Carter
William Jefferson Clinton

Just to name a few, and yes, I have heard McCain referred to that way as well.

ih8brady
07-24-2008, 10:12 PM
I realize at the ripe old age of 20, that this is probably your first presidential election, but in my 45 years they have frequently referred to politicians by all 3 names.

Franklin Delano Roosvelt
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Richard Milhous Nixon
James Earl Carter
William Jefferson Clinton

Just to name a few, and yes, I have heard McCain referred to that way as well.

Only the first two hold up to that standard, if you want to be truthful.

Tetragrammaton
07-25-2008, 09:27 AM
I realize at the ripe old age of 20

What does my age have to do with anything? It really shows a lack of effective arguing on your part. You have no substantive way to return, so you try to attack age? There are plenty of posters your age that I have debated with here that have never referred to my age pejoratively.

I have followed every election since 1996, and no one referred to Bill Clinton, Bob Dole, Al Gore, or John Kerry by their middle name. I don't know them unless I look them up. Everyone knew Dubya's, but that was for a distinction from his father.

XXXXXXXXXX. No one called him James Earl Carter on a regular basis. And you never call him John Sidney McCain.

Just admit it. You do it to incite fear in others. We all know why you do it. It would be like someone saying the use of the names McCentury or McSame is not supposed to do the same.

Please refrain from attacking other posters with deragatory names

BlueFin
07-25-2008, 09:27 AM
Only the first two hold up to that standard, if you want to be truthful.

You've never heard the media use William Jefferson Clinton?

I've heard it more times than I care to count.

BlueFin
07-25-2008, 09:48 AM
What does my age have to do with anything? It really shows a lack of effective arguing on your part. You have no substantive way to return, so you try to attack age? There are plenty of posters your age that I have debated with here that have never referred to my age pejoratively.

I have followed every election since 1996, and no one referred to Bill Clinton, Bob Dole, Al Gore, or John Kerry by their middle name. I don't know them unless I look them up. Everyone knew Dubya's, but that was for a distinction from his father.

XXXXXXXXXX. No one called him James Earl Carter on a regular basis. And you never call him John Sidney McCain.

Just admit it. You do it to incite fear in others. We all know why you do it. It would be like someone saying the use of the names McCentury or McSame is not supposed to do the same.

Please refrain from attacking other posters with deragatory names

Your age is a fact and relevent to this discussion, and it certainly means your recall of what the media did in regards to the use of their three names is limited to a the Clinton era going forward, so you really can't tell me firsthand that they didn't refer to Jimmy Carter as James Earl Carter from time to time(which they did).

poornate
07-25-2008, 11:58 PM
I love hearing your "whipper snapper" tirades... Especially when you are using infantile information that any 10 year old could tell you is false... As far as the name Hussein? It is like Smith in a large part of the world... and if Obama is elected, which I sure hope he is, it will be a gift to the American people that he is blessed with that moniker... Why? because a lot of the world is Muslim and perhaps hearing a name that reminds them of our shared humanity will foster a sense of goodwill... familiarity is a positive...

Miamian
07-26-2008, 04:57 PM
The reason behind the "peace talks" is to screw the Palestinians out of as much land as possible while seemingly doing in it in a legit way. Obama has voiced his opinion on this issue, and he seems to be siding with the Israelis in that he does not support the "terrorists" that fight against them. Obama has even vowed to try to give the majority of the land to Israel, and wants to give sole possession of Jerusalem to the Israelis.

Now, back to the subject on hand. I dont mind the name calling as much, we have already accepted that sort of thing when two candidates run for president. Whats more saddening, however, is the racism and the deterioration of image that the Muslim people have been subjected to. I agree with the rest of you in that it has become quite shameful how people are using the term Muslim like its a crime. Its now akin to being labeled a witch, a stigma that the public will refuse to remove. Now when someone thinks of Islam, they think of DEATH, SUICIDE BOMBERS, and CORRUPTION.. These negative connotations and bigotry have been so ingrained into American culture now that Obama had to reiterate time and time again that he is not Muslim just to save his "image"Obama's saying that a fence should not run through Jerusalem means that he wants Israel to have complete sovereignty? Maybe that's the case now, but may not be when the Palestinians grow up and refrain from murder. Has it occurred to you that there's a reason behind the stigma? You imply your support for that by putting the word terrorists in quotes.

And by the way he supports further withdrawals, even though he mistakenly believes that they lead to greater security.

He's stated repeatedly that he's Christian and I'm fine with that. I've made up my mind not to vote for him because of what I've alluded to in the previous sentence.

FinFatale
07-27-2008, 10:58 AM
Middle name Hussein is only one reason terror thugs like Barack Obama

Friday, May 16th 2008, 4:00 AM
Barack Hussein Obama (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Barack+Obama) wants it both ways.
Any American who uses his full name is trying to scare voters, his wife charges. But Obama says he understands why Islamic terror group Hamas (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Hamas) looks at his middle name and trusts him.
Ditto for his plan to meet with Iran (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Iran)'s madman president and other rogue leaders. Obama sees his open-door policy as evidence he will end President Bush (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/George+W.+Bush)'s "cowboy diplomacy." When Bush slammed that plan Thursday as "appeasement," Obama accused him of a "false political attack."
It's a legitimate attack, because Obama's kumbaya foreign policy is dangerous. And his name, including the Hussein part, is fair game because Obama has declared it an international advantage.
He can want it both ways, but he can't have it.
The trouble started when Hamas adviser Ahmed Yousef (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Ahmed+Youssef) said, "We like Mr. Obama" and added, "we hope he wins the election."
That's an endorsement, plain and simple. When John McCain (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/John+McCain) jumped in, promising to be Hamas' "worst enemy," Obama got huffy and accused McCain of "divisive fear-mongering."
That's par for the Obama course. Michelle Obama (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Michelle+Obama) once said anyone using her husband's full name is throwing the "ultimate fear bomb. When all else fails, be afraid of his name."
Maybe we should be afraid. Consider what Obama says in an interview in the current Atlantic magazine.
Asked by writer Jeffrey Goldberg (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Jeffrey+Goldberg) if he was "flummoxed" by the Hamas support, Obama responds no and says: "It's conceivable that there are those in the Arab world who say to themselves, 'This is a guy who spent some time in the Muslim world, has a middle name of Hussein and appears more worldly and has called for talks with people, and so he's not going to be engaging in the same sort of cowboy diplomacy as George Bush,' and that's something they're hopeful about."
He adds: "That's a perfectly legitimate perception as long as they're not confused about my unyielding support for Israel (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Israel)'s security."
In fact, there is confusion. Some of it goes to his long relationship with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Jeremiah+Wright), whose church magazine printed anti-Israel views. There is no evidence Obama objected.
The Atlantic interview adds to the confusion. While Obama stresses the importance of Israel to Jews, he also seems to parrot liberal nonsense that blames the entire Mideast conflict on Israeli settlements.
He even links Israeli parents' concern for their children's safety to settlements, posing the question: "Is settlement policy conducive to relieving that over the long term, or is it just making the situation worse?"
WRONG QUESTION. The right one is why should Israel or anyone else meet with Hamas, which won't recognize Israel's right to exist and fires rockets into civilian areas? Hamas' vow to destroy Israel has nothing to do with settlements or borders.
One question has been answered, though. Now we know why Hamas prefers Barack Hussein Obama. He's told us himself.

if Senator OBama refers to himself , using his full name at times then why isn't ok for others to do the same. I agree with this article , He can't have it both way. If he is going to use his name to further his relationship with the middle east then how can he or his supporters complain when someone uses it here in the United States?

FinFatale
07-27-2008, 11:16 AM
I also think that by shying away from the use of his middle name here in the US. Barack could be sending the Middle East a mixed message. This issue should certainly be looked at from different angles. Issues are most often not always black and white.

FinFatale
07-27-2008, 11:29 AM
I love hearing your "whipper snapper" tirades... Especially when you are using infantile information that any 10 year old could tell you is false... As far as the name Hussein? It is like Smith in a large part of the world... and if Obama is elected, which I sure hope he is, it will be a gift to the American people that he is blessed with that moniker... Why? because a lot of the world is Muslim and perhaps hearing a name that reminds them of our shared humanity will foster a sense of goodwill... familiarity is a positive...


"So who gets to say Hussein? At the Oscars, host Jon Stewart took innuendo about as far as it can go, saying that Barack Hussein Obama running today is like a 1940's candidate named Gaydolph Titler. But that reference, served up to a crowd that presumably swoons for Obama, got laughs. So maybe the H-word is more like the N-word: you can say it, but only if you are an initiate. Blacks can use the N-word; Obama supporters can use the H-word.
Obama's campaign thanked McCain's for his apology, claiming a victory for the high road. Fine. But McCain might also know that if middle names become fair game, John Sidney McCain III has his own liabilities. Recently, it has been the unmanly middle names that have caused their owners the most political trouble. In 2006, Jim Henry Webb hammered home the fact that his Virginia Senate opponent was actually George Felix Allen — a middle name that conjured up images of Felix Unger, or perhaps the real life Prince Felix of Luxemburg, either one a far cry from the tobacco-chewing good ole boy Allen styled himself as. In the last presidential election, both Bush and Kerry had middle names inherited from elite East Coast families. But Bush's middle name had much more swagger; you'll never see a TV show called Forbes, Texas Ranger. "

I think BlueFin is correct and he didn't post any falsities concerning the use of middle names. They have been used to incite politically many times in our past political history and will be used in the future. If you have proof or a reference of fact I'd be interested in reading it.

ih8brady
07-27-2008, 12:46 PM
"So who gets to say Hussein? At the Oscars, host Jon Stewart took innuendo about as far as it can go, saying that Barack Hussein Obama running today is like a 1940's candidate named Gaydolph Titler. But that reference, served up to a crowd that presumably swoons for Obama, got laughs. So maybe the H-word is more like the N-word: you can say it, but only if you are an initiate. Blacks can use the N-word; Obama supporters can use the H-word.
Obama's campaign thanked McCain's for his apology, claiming a victory for the high road. Fine. But McCain might also know that if middle names become fair game, John Sidney McCain III has his own liabilities. Recently, it has been the unmanly middle names that have caused their owners the most political trouble. In 2006, Jim Henry Webb hammered home the fact that his Virginia Senate opponent was actually George Felix Allen — a middle name that conjured up images of Felix Unger, or perhaps the real life Prince Felix of Luxemburg, either one a far cry from the tobacco-chewing good ole boy Allen styled himself as. In the last presidential election, both Bush and Kerry had middle names inherited from elite East Coast families. But Bush's middle name had much more swagger; you'll never see a TV show called Forbes, Texas Ranger. "

I think BlueFin is correct and he didn't post any falsities concerning the use of middle names. They have been used to incite politically many times in our past political history and will be used in the future. If you have proof or a reference of fact I'd be interested in reading it.


So saying his middle name isn't an attempt to create an alien otherness?

poornate
07-27-2008, 06:39 PM
"So who gets to say Hussein? At the Oscars, host Jon Stewart took innuendo about as far as it can go, saying that Barack Hussein Obama running today is like a 1940's candidate named Gaydolph Titler. But that reference, served up to a crowd that presumably swoons for Obama, got laughs. So maybe the H-word is more like the N-word: you can say it, but only if you are an initiate. Blacks can use the N-word; Obama supporters can use the H-word.
Obama's campaign thanked McCain's for his apology, claiming a victory for the high road. Fine. But McCain might also know that if middle names become fair game, John Sidney McCain III has his own liabilities. Recently, it has been the unmanly middle names that have caused their owners the most political trouble. In 2006, Jim Henry Webb hammered home the fact that his Virginia Senate opponent was actually George Felix Allen — a middle name that conjured up images of Felix Unger, or perhaps the real life Prince Felix of Luxemburg, either one a far cry from the tobacco-chewing good ole boy Allen styled himself as. In the last presidential election, both Bush and Kerry had middle names inherited from elite East Coast families. But Bush's middle name had much more swagger; you'll never see a TV show called Forbes, Texas Ranger. "

I think BlueFin is correct and he didn't post any falsities concerning the use of middle names. They have been used to incite politically many times in our past political history and will be used in the future. If you have proof or a reference of fact I'd be interested in reading it.

The difference is that Obama's name is being used to stir up fear and hatred... the, as IH8B, "othering" of other people is used to make them scared of anything that is different... You know as well as I do why Hussein is being used in the manner that it is... i have no problem with it... As I said above, it will be a gift to us and our people if he is elected president.... But Blue fin uses it because he thinks it means something it doesn't... and to try to lead other people to believe the same thing... You, and he, can say whatever you want about it... it's the truth....

as for the original intent of this thread... Some A-hole stole Obama's prayer out of the cracks of the western wall and got it published.... sacreligious? to steal a prayer? Yes...but it does serve a purpose here... it does evince a certain Muslim ethos don't you think? I mean, you know, with it being a Christian prayer to the Lord and all...


“Lord — Protect my family and me,” reads the note published in the Maariv daily. “Forgive me my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will.”

FinFatale
07-27-2008, 07:23 PM
When Senator Obama uses his full name is he also trying to illicit fear?? You really can't have it both ways.

Dolphin39
07-27-2008, 07:30 PM
Obama's comments about his faith are very troubling. Obama has said he believes there is more than one way (faith?) to heaven. I believe Obama needs to clarify his comments, even though I believe I know his answer.

Christians do not believe you can be a muslim, hindu, budist or place your faith in any person, other than Jesus, and be allowed into heaven. Christians believe there in only one name under heaven where by ye must be saved...that name is Jesus.

Most people of any denomination, say there is only one God and I agree. However, most Christians will tell you you can't put your faith in Muhammed, Budda, or anyone else and be saved from the Christian faith perspective. Obama doesn't believe and follow traditional Christian beliefs, practiced by millions of protestants and catholics all over the world.

ih8brady
07-27-2008, 08:34 PM
Obama's comments about his faith are very troubling. Obama has said he believes there is more than one way (faith?) to heaven. I believe Obama needs to clarify his comments, even though I believe I know his answer.

Christians do not believe you can be a muslim, hindu, budist or place your faith in any person, other than Jesus, and be allowed into heaven. Christians believe there in only one name under heaven where by ye must be saved...that name is Jesus.

Most people of any denomination, say there is only one God and I agree. However, most Christians will tell you you can't put your faith in Muhammed, Budda, or anyone else and be saved from the Christian faith perspective. Obama doesn't believe and follow traditional Christian beliefs, practiced by millions of protestants and catholics all over the world.


Nice try, but many Christians believe in heaven for the noble non-believers of Jesus(be they Jews, Hindu, Muslims, etc). Don't confuse your narrow, extremist version of Christianity with all of Christianity or even mainstream Christianity.

Dolphin39
07-27-2008, 08:54 PM
Nice try, but many Christians believe in heaven for the noble non-believers of Jesus(be they Jews, Hindu, Muslims, etc). Don't confuse your narrow, extremist version of Christianity with all of Christianity or even mainstream Christianity.

You'll find I'm correct, true "mainstream" Christians do believe Jesus is the only way to heaven!

I assure you they will tell you you cannot obtain salvation by putting your faith in Muhammed (or anyone else), only in Jesus.

ih8brady
07-27-2008, 09:07 PM
You'll find I'm correct, true "mainstream" Christians do believe Jesus is the only way to heaven!

I assure you they will tell you you cannot obtain salvation by putting your faith in Muhammed (or anyone else), only in Jesus.


Most Xians, including college theologians, I know would say that someone like, Ghandi or Thomas Jefferson, would be admitted into heaven despite not being a believer in Jesus' divinity

Dolphin39
07-27-2008, 10:55 PM
Most Xians, including college theologians, I know would say that someone like, Ghandi or Thomas Jefferson, would be admitted into heaven despite not being a believer in Jesus' divinity

This is one position I'm very confident.

As a side note to the discussion, I'm sure people of the muslim faith feel the same way, that there is no other way into heaven other than through their Muhammed.

poornate
07-27-2008, 11:07 PM
Obama's comments about his faith are very troubling. Obama has said he believes there is more than one way (faith?) to heaven. I believe Obama needs to clarify his comments, even though I believe I know his answer.

Christians do not believe you can be a muslim, hindu, budist or place your faith in any person, other than Jesus, and be allowed into heaven. Christians believe there in only one name under heaven where by ye must be saved...that name is Jesus.

Most people of any denomination, say there is only one God and I agree. However, most Christians will tell you you can't put your faith in Muhammed, Budda, or anyone else and be saved from the Christian faith perspective. Obama doesn't believe and follow traditional Christian beliefs, practiced by millions of protestants and catholics all over the world.

Jews, Muslims, and Christains are all praying to the same God, though... So how can you be so sure? All of the religions arose out of the same creator/saviour myths... Your Gods are the same... Maybe heaven has more rooms than you think...

Dolphin39
07-27-2008, 11:31 PM
Jews, Muslims, and Christains are all praying to the same God, though... So how can you be so sure? All of the religions arose out of the same creator/saviour myths... Your Gods are the same... Maybe heaven has more rooms than you think...No offense is meant, however, born-again Christians believe this is a lie straight from Satan, including me!

No, we most definitely do not pray to the same God!

"The" God did create mankind, but most have turned away from him by rejecting his son, Jesus Christ.

Tetragrammaton
07-27-2008, 11:50 PM
No, we most definitely do not pray to the same God!

"The" God did create mankind, but most have turned away from him by rejecting his son, Jesus Christ.

They are all the Abrahamic God. They just disagree on when the prophets stopped coming here. You agree with a large portion of Islam through your belief in Christianity.

Muslims didn't turn away from Jesus. He is a revered prophet. If you want to dislike someone in your camp, the Jews like Jesus a little less than the Muslims do.

Dolphin39
07-28-2008, 12:15 AM
They are all the Abrahamic God. They just disagree on when the prophets stopped coming here. You agree with a large portion of Islam through your belief in Christianity.

Muslims didn't turn away from Jesus. He is a revered prophet. If you want to dislike someone in your camp, the Jews like Jesus a little less than the Muslims do.

Wrong; its the muslims who want to kill anyone who isn't willing to convert to Islam.

Also, being a prophet, which Jesus isn't (he's the son of the almight God), is not the same as being God.

ih8brady
07-28-2008, 12:21 AM
Wrong; its the muslims who want to kill anyone who isn't willing to convert to Islam.

Also, being a prophet, which Jesus isn't (he's the son of the almight God), is not the same as being God.


Do you know anything about Islam? You seem to lack a rudimentary understanding. Try wikipedia for a beginning.

If you are going to hate, at least have the courtesy to know what you are hating.

Dolphin39
07-28-2008, 01:08 AM
Do you know anything about Islam? You seem to lack a rudimentary understanding. Try wikipedia for a beginning.

If you are going to hate, at least have the courtesy to know what you are hating.

Nice try...here's an a tiny segment of an article on Islam and why thousands of Islamic terrorists are killing the so called infidels.

"These ideas of a violent jihad are not the ravings of a few fringe lunatics. On the contrary, they are ideas which have influenced Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic political movements throughtout the Middle East."

Make NO mistake, there are litterally thousands, even millions of muslims, who would like nothing more than to see every single American and Israeli citizens dead!

ih8brady
07-28-2008, 01:40 AM
Nice try...here's an a tiny segment of an article on Islam and why thousands of Islamic terrorists are killing the so called infidels.

"These ideas of a violent jihad are not the ravings of a few fringe lunatics. On the contrary, they are ideas which have influenced Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic political movements throughtout the Middle East."

Make NO mistake, there are litterally thousands, even millions of muslims, who would like nothing more than to see every single American and Israeli citizens dead!


You didn't even know Yahweh and "Allah" were the same deity. :rolleyes:


And you said "its the muslims who want to kill anyone who isn't willing to convert to Islam."

That's implying all of them are involved in violent acts against non-Muslims. There's over a billion Muslims in the world. You claim thousands or millions are terroristic. You do the math.

ch19079
07-28-2008, 03:19 PM
In light of Barrack Obama's own comments, and his strong support for muslims, as evidenced in his own words, (when the winds turn against them, he will support them), this is very disturbing.

http://www.rapturealert.com/2008/061508obamamuslim.asp
Does it matter?

Dolphin39
07-28-2008, 04:50 PM
You didn't even know Yahweh and "Allah" were the same deity. :rolleyes:


And you said "its the muslims who want to kill anyone who isn't willing to convert to Islam."

That's implying all of them are involved in violent acts against non-Muslims. There's over a billion Muslims in the world. You claim thousands or millions are terroristic. You do the math.

Thanks for confirming what I said. By your own admission there's over a "billion" muslims in the world. If only 3% of those muslims are terrorists, you sir do the math!!!!!!!!!!

Miamian
07-28-2008, 04:52 PM
as for the original intent of this thread... Some A-hole stole Obama's prayer out of the cracks of the western wall and got it published.... sacreligious? to steal a prayer? Yes...but it does serve a purpose here... it does evince a certain Muslim ethos don't you think? I mean, you know, with it being a Christian prayer to the Lord and all...
I was going to post a thread on that but I decided not to so that people who were unaware wouldn't try to look it up and have his prayer read by more people. Now that you've posted the issue is out in the open.

It's an outrage and a disgrace that a religious Jew would do such a thing. Notes placed in the Wall are a private matter between G-d and the writer of the note. Camera footage was caught of the individual, but unfortunately, there is no state law against what he did because this is not a theocracy. There is a religious court and I hope that they pursue whatever legal action is open to them.

Tetragrammaton
07-28-2008, 10:36 PM
Wrong; its the muslims who want to kill anyone who isn't willing to convert to Islam.

Also, being a prophet, which Jesus isn't (he's the son of the almight God), is not the same as being God.

What? Mohammad is not the God of Islam, Allah is. Mohammad is a prophet, like Jesus. Jews, on the other hand, do not believe Jesus is a prophet.

Does the guy who shot up the "liberal" church members represent Christianity? No, of course not. And terrorists don't represent Islam. There is more violence from the Islamic world, and it is under the guise of Islamofascism.


Thanks for confirming what I said. By your own admission there's over a "billion" muslims in the world. If only 3% of those muslims are terrorists, you sir do the math!!!!!!!!!!

But they aren't.

People are people, Dolphin39. Muslim, Christian, Jew, atheist, most people just want to live in peace. There are radicals out there, but they don't represent the majority of Islam, just like the guy that shot up the "liberal" church doesn't represent your faith.

BlueFin
07-29-2008, 09:34 AM
Does the guy who shot up the "liberal" church members represent Christianity? No, of course not. And terrorists don't represent Islam. There is more violence from the Islamic world, and it is under the guise of Islamofascism.



But they aren't.

People are people, Dolphin39. Muslim, Christian, Jew, atheist, most people just want to live in peace. There are radicals out there, but they don't represent the majority of Islam, just like the guy that shot up the "liberal" church doesn't represent your faith.

Did you see people dancing in the streets in joy after the church was "shot up"?.....I didn't.

Because, I saw film of muslims all over the middle east doing that very thing after 911, so I certainly don't agree with your analogy or your attempt to classify the Islamic Jihad of various large middle eastern based organizations as the work or desires of a few radicals.

FinFatale
07-29-2008, 12:04 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-062808-obama-hussein-supporters,0,5867627.story

just a point of interest. Here is a group of Senator's Obama's supporters using the name Hussein, are they also using it to ilict fear????

Tetragrammaton
07-29-2008, 12:47 PM
Did you see people dancing in the streets in joy after the church was "shot up"?.....I didn't.

Because, I saw film of muslims all over the middle east doing that very thing after 911, so I certainly don't agree with your analogy or your attempt to classify the Islamic Jihad of various large middle eastern based organizations as the work or desires of a few radicals.

No one danced because dancing is discouraged in this country. There were people who were happy, though.

Those in the Middle East that celebrated sympathize with Islamofascism, which is a real threat. They still don't represent the majority of Islam.


just a point of interest. Here is a group of Senator's Obama's supporters using the name Hussein, are they also using it to ilict fear????

Did you read that article? Of course they aren't illiciting fear, they are standing against people that do.

FinFatale
07-29-2008, 01:49 PM
No one danced because dancing is discouraged in this country. There were people who were happy, though.

Those in the Middle East that celebrated sympathize with Islamofascism, which is a real threat. They still don't represent the majority of Islam.



Did you read that article? Of course they aren't illiciting fear, they are standing against people that do.


I was being scarcastic. It must have gone over your head :) sorry about that!

Now to your reference about dancing in the Middle East:

Native to North Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, belly dancing is based on one of the oldest social dances in world history. Much of the support for this theory stems from the similarities between poses in ancient Egyptian artwork and the modern dance.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
There are two forms of belly dancing. The first is called raqs baladi, a social dance performed by people of all ages and by both sexes, during festive occasions- such as weddings- and other social gatherings for fun and celebration. The second form- the more theatrical version- is called raqs sharqi, and it is this type that is most popular in America today. Like raks baladi, raks sharqi is performed by both male and female dancers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belly_dance

poornate
07-31-2008, 10:34 PM
Did you see people dancing in the streets in joy after the church was "shot up"?.....I didn't.


How many Americans were glued to their televisions during "shock and awe" and high fiving their buddies over the water cooler while a city that contains many of civilization's roots was bombed to smithereens... it's a cultural difference, not a different response...

poornate
07-31-2008, 10:35 PM
I was going to post a thread on that but I decided not to so that people who were unaware wouldn't try to look it up and have his prayer read by more people. Now that you've posted the issue is out in the open.

It's an outrage and a disgrace that a religious Jew would do such a thing. Notes placed in the Wall are a private matter between G-d and the writer of the note. Camera footage was caught of the individual, but unfortunately, there is no state law against what he did because this is not a theocracy. There is a religious court and I hope that they pursue whatever legal action is open to them.

I thought it was outrageously wrong....

xMChemicalRx
07-31-2008, 11:50 PM
How many Americans were glued to their televisions during "shock and awe" and high fiving their buddies over the water cooler while a city that contains many of civilization's roots was bombed to smithereens... it's a cultural difference, not a different response...


That's a GREAT response. Thanks bro.

BlueFin
08-01-2008, 10:21 AM
How many Americans were glued to their televisions during "shock and awe" and high fiving their buddies over the water cooler while a city that contains many of civilization's roots was bombed to smithereens... it's a cultural difference, not a different response...

You rationalize it however you want, one was an attack that killed thousands of innocent people for no other reason than hatred of all who are not of their religion, the other was the liberation of a nation who had suffered numerous attrocities under the dictatorship of a madman and his insane sons.

To say the two instances are the same, is an insult to every member of the military who served to help free their fellow man, and to stop two of the countries who had allowed a safe haven for terrorists, including the terrorists that brought us 911, the USS Cole, the first world trade center bombing etc etc etc....

myke1072
08-02-2008, 05:12 PM
It's not illegal to be muslim.

xMChemicalRx
08-02-2008, 06:35 PM
You rationalize it however you want, one was an attack that killed thousands of innocent people for no other reason than hatred of all who are not of their religion, the other was the liberation of a nation who had suffered numerous attrocities under the dictatorship of a madman and his insane sons.

To say the two instances are the same, is an insult to every member of the military who served to help free their fellow man, and to stop two of the countries who had allowed a safe haven for terrorists, including the terrorists that brought us 911, the USS Cole, the first world trade center bombing etc etc etc....

"For no other reason than hatred of all who are not their religion"

That is far from the truth. 9/11 happened because of America's support of Isreal. Maybe people we're celebrating because they themselves felt as if they were being "liberated".

the DOCUMENTED death toll of Iraqi civilians is around 94,000 people and that is a generous estimate coming from U.S. military officials. There is no doubt that much more have died where their deaths have gone undocumented. Saddam couldn't kill those many people even if he tried. Another point to consider is that iraq is not liberated. We haven't done anything to help iraq in the long term. What will happen once we leave?

People we're dancing in the street after 9/11 but those Palestinian people are the same people who have a death ratio of 300/1. That is for every isreali that is killed 300 palestinains are killed. I would be celebrating too if I was subjected to those numbers on a daily basis. No matter what though the innocent killings of defenseless people is wrong. It was an intial sense of joy but if you question any arab what they think of 9/11 they will tell you that it is wrong and those that have done it are condomed to hell. The koren says that 9/11 was not Jihad.

FinFatale
08-02-2008, 08:40 PM
"For no other reason than hatred of all who are not their religion"

That is far from the truth. 9/11 happened because of America's support of Isreal. Maybe people we're celebrating because they themselves felt as if they were being "liberated".

the DOCUMENTED death toll of Iraqi civilians is around 94,000 people and that is a generous estimate coming from U.S. military officials. There is no doubt that much more have died where their deaths have gone undocumented. Saddam couldn't kill those many people even if he tried. Another point to consider is that iraq is not liberated. We haven't done anything to help iraq in the long term. What will happen once we leave?

People we're dancing in the street after 9/11 but those Palestinian people are the same people who have a death ratio of 300/1. That is for every isreali that is killed 300 palestinains are killed. I would be celebrating too if I was subjected to those numbers on a daily basis. No matter what though the innocent killings of defenseless people is wrong. It was an intial sense of joy but if you question any arab what they think of 9/11 they will tell you that it is wrong and those that have done it are condomed to hell. The koren says that 9/11 was not Jihad.


I'd be interested in you posting where in the Koran it says that 9/11 was not jihad.
additionally............" IF" 9/11 was due just to America's support of Israel than I would have to ask if that doesn't fall under hating others not of their religion???? Last time I checked Israel was not predominantly MUSLIM.
Secondly, the arab world is vast and I really can't be convinced that any arab that might be questioned would tell you that those that animals that commited the 9/11 atrocity are in hell. If you have proof otherwise please post your reference.

Miamian
08-03-2008, 01:32 AM
"For no other reason than hatred of all who are not their religion"

That is far from the truth. 9/11 happened because of America's support of Isreal. Maybe people we're celebrating because they themselves felt as if they were being "liberated".

the DOCUMENTED death toll of Iraqi civilians is around 94,000 people and that is a generous estimate coming from U.S. military officials. There is no doubt that much more have died where their deaths have gone undocumented. Saddam couldn't kill those many people even if he tried. Another point to consider is that iraq is not liberated. We haven't done anything to help iraq in the long term. What will happen once we leave?

People we're dancing in the street after 9/11 but those Palestinian people are the same people who have a death ratio of 300/1. That is for every isreali that is killed 300 palestinains are killed. I would be celebrating too if I was subjected to those numbers on a daily basis. No matter what though the innocent killings of defenseless people is wrong. It was an intial sense of joy but if you question any arab what they think of 9/11 they will tell you that it is wrong and those that have done it are condomed to hell. The koren says that 9/11 was not Jihad.
Of course 9-11 wouldn't have anything to do with that infidelity thing and the Satanic influence of the West, now would it?

Naah.

Oh, and it wouldn't behoove Palestinians to not use human shields when the IDF confronts them now woulnd't it?

Naah.

xMChemicalRx
08-03-2008, 02:30 PM
lol. You guys are funny. You recite what you see on Israeli news. Okay first thing first.

9/11 is not jihad because in the quran it states that to kill one innocent man is like killing the whole world. I think everyone knows that they were innocent.

Jihad is when an enemy is in your land and fighting to take it over (i.e iraq) Jihad is when you are killed by the enemy while you are in a conflict fighting for god, religion, and your land. Christen priest have had the same beliefs in the crusades. It's all in the matter of the context.

America's support of Isreal does not fall under "hating of their religion" it falls under hating the ally of your enemy. every death caused by isreal is caused by america in the arab mind. That is why there is a hatred for america. If it was a religion thing then every country would be attacked. Why is the focus on america? Because they support ISREAL.

Your claim about human shields is soo crazy and out of line. You have no proof. Also I'm sure human shields can't be used when they are being bombed by AMERICAN made planes. Have you seen a funeral in Palestine? There are thousands marching when a Palestinian is killed. It is ridiculous to say that they use human shields.

Miamian
08-03-2008, 03:03 PM
lol. You guys are funny. You recite what you see on Israeli news. Okay first thing first.

9/11 is not jihad because in the quran it states that to kill one innocent man is like killing the whole world. I think everyone knows that they were innocent.

Jihad is when an enemy is in your land and fighting to take it over (i.e iraq) Jihad is when you are killed by the enemy while you are in a conflict fighting for god, religion, and your land. Christen priest have had the same beliefs in the crusades. It's all in the matter of the context.

America's support of Isreal does not fall under "hating of their religion" it falls under hating the ally of your enemy. every death caused by isreal is caused by america in the arab mind. That is why there is a hatred for america. If it was a religion thing then every country would be attacked. Why is the focus on america? Because they support ISREAL.

Your claim about human shields is soo crazy and out of line. You have no proof. Also I'm sure human shields can't be used when they are being bombed by AMERICAN made planes. Have you seen a funeral in Palestine? There are thousands marching when a Palestinian is killed. It is ridiculous to say that they use human shields.
LOL!!! :lol:

It's okay when you claim it to be your land, isn't it?

No human shields, why do you think that they fire rockets from inside villages? Why entrench themselves inside the cities? If Hamas, Jihad, et al were so concerned about Palestinian civilian fatalities, fine. Meet Israel on the field of battle outside the cities. Of course, they don't do that. It's part of what makes them terrorists.

xMChemicalRx
08-04-2008, 11:46 PM
LOL!!! :lol:

It's okay when you claim it to be your land, isn't it?

No human shields, why do you think that they fire rockets from inside villages? Why entrench themselves inside the cities? If Hamas, Jihad, et al were so concerned about Palestinian civilian fatalities, fine. Meet Israel on the field of battle outside the cities. Of course, they don't do that. It's part of what makes them terrorists.


Obviously, Palestine cannot stand a chance against and American backed isreal. They fight in what is the most effective way. Call it terrorism but remember that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I want to point out that I believe the killing of Israeli citizens is wrong and the Koran says the same. They should only attack the military. The rockets that they fire into the city have maybe killed a handful of people. Isreal has killed more citizens in one single military airstrike.

I don't know what you meant about what I said about the whole claiming of land business. I was simply stating that when your being attacked and your defending your land from intruders (Americans in Iraq) and you die they you are a martyr in islam. That is Jihad.

I'm confused why jews feel that isreal is their god given land. How in the world could it be your land if your torah says that god will give you the land of isreal and when he does there will be peace in the world.

Unless America and Britain are defined as a deity in Judaism then I can't wrap my mind around that argument. Please explain it to me. Also other reason(s) why you feel that isreal is your god-given land.
Palestinian deaths….3196 (620)
Israeli deaths….946 (112)
That explains everything….
(deaths under the age of 18 in brackets)

BlueFin
08-05-2008, 09:22 AM
"For no other reason than hatred of all who are not their religion"

That is far from the truth. 9/11 happened because of America's support of Isreal. Maybe people we're celebrating because they themselves felt as if they were being "liberated".

the DOCUMENTED death toll of Iraqi civilians is around 94,000 people and that is a generous estimate coming from U.S. military officials. There is no doubt that much more have died where their deaths have gone undocumented. Saddam couldn't kill those many people even if he tried. Another point to consider is that iraq is not liberated. We haven't done anything to help iraq in the long term. What will happen once we leave?

People we're dancing in the street after 9/11 but those Palestinian people are the same people who have a death ratio of 300/1. That is for every isreali that is killed 300 palestinains are killed. I would be celebrating too if I was subjected to those numbers on a daily basis. No matter what though the innocent killings of defenseless people is wrong. It was an intial sense of joy but if you question any arab what they think of 9/11 they will tell you that it is wrong and those that have done it are condomed to hell. The koren says that 9/11 was not Jihad.

Wow, where to start? Muslims throughtout the world have shown no tolerance for other religions with the exception of the United States, where they have no real choice (other than the terrorists attacks they have performed here), so yes, seeing that, and combining that with what the Koran preaches, I'd say fundementalist Islam believes in death to all non-believers of their faith.

Next, it was NOT just Palestinian's that were dancing in the streets, it was Arabs all over the Middle East, hardly the compassionate response you'd expect from an alleged (by some US Muslims) peaceful, loving religion.

Please do not sit here and try to tell me that we have been worse to the Iraqi's than Sadam and his insane boys were, I was in the Persian Gulf in 1984 when Sadam was gassing his own people, the various atrocities and horrors of the regime are well documented now and are beyond debate.

Finally, you always ask me and others to question any Arab to prove some point or another, my friend, actions speak much louder than words.

Also, you could please reference where in the Koran it states 911 was not jihad, it seems many Muslims are confused about this, to include many leaders of worldwide jihadist organizations, as well as the rich Muslims in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere that help fund it, chapter and verse please?

BlueFin
08-05-2008, 09:32 AM
lol. You guys are funny. You recite what you see on Israeli news. Okay first thing first.

9/11 is not jihad because in the quran it states that to kill one innocent man is like killing the whole world. I think everyone knows that they were innocent.

Jihad is when an enemy is in your land and fighting to take it over (i.e iraq) Jihad is when you are killed by the enemy while you are in a conflict fighting for god, religion, and your land. Christen priest have had the same beliefs in the crusades. It's all in the matter of the context.

America's support of Isreal does not fall under "hating of their religion" it falls under hating the ally of your enemy. every death caused by isreal is caused by america in the arab mind. That is why there is a hatred for america. If it was a religion thing then every country would be attacked. Why is the focus on america? Because they support ISREAL.

Your claim about human shields is soo crazy and out of line. You have no proof. Also I'm sure human shields can't be used when they are being bombed by AMERICAN made planes. Have you seen a funeral in Palestine? There are thousands marching when a Palestinian is killed. It is ridiculous to say that they use human shields.

Please read this and explain to me again about how Muslims are tolerant of other religions? This is in Indonesia, I'll warn you ahead of time that it is very graphic and not for children.


http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/11/islamic_jihad_i.html

BlueFin
08-05-2008, 09:38 AM
The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam. But the Quran also refers to jihad as an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort. It is said that Prophet Muhammad considered the armed-struggle version of holy war "the little jihad," but considered the spiritual, individual version of holy war--the war within oneself--as "the great jihad

Seems you are incorrect on this, while it can be interpreted many ways, it seems the more fundemental segments of Islam are not wrong.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/religionsectarianism/g/me080122a.htm

Miamian
08-05-2008, 02:35 PM
Obviously, Palestine cannot stand a chance against and American backed isreal. They fight in what is the most effective way. Call it terrorism but remember that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I want to point out that I believe the killing of Israeli citizens is wrong and the Koran says the same. They should only attack the military. The rockets that they fire into the city have maybe killed a handful of people. Isreal has killed more citizens in one single military airstrike.

I don't know what you meant about what I said about the whole claiming of land business. I was simply stating that when your being attacked and your defending your land from intruders (Americans in Iraq) and you die they you are a martyr in islam. That is Jihad.

I'm confused why jews feel that isreal is their god given land. How in the world could it be your land if your torah says that god will give you the land of isreal and when he does there will be peace in the world.

Unless America and Britain are defined as a deity in Judaism then I can't wrap my mind around that argument. Please explain it to me. Also other reason(s) why you feel that isreal is your god-given land.
Palestinian deaths….3196 (620)
Israeli deaths….946 (112)
That explains everything….
(deaths under the age of 18 in brackets)First of all, the actual number of people killed in rocket attacks may be small, but that does not say anything about the constant unknown of when one will strike. It could be any second of any day and there's only about 15 seconds from the time of launch to the time of strike. That's fifteen seconds to drop whatever you're doing and find safe cover. Since pulling out of Gaza, the barrage of those rockets had been daily. It's only slowed up very recently. But, who knows when it will start again and Hamas has also improved the Qassam's range to reach even further than Ashqelon.

If they chose that way to fight and the people support them doing so, then the people also bear that responsibility. If they wouldn't support terrorism, then there wouldn't be a need for military strikes.

Nevertheless, herein lies the key point. Palestinians hiding amongst civilians while concurrently carrying out terrorism leaves Israel no choice but to strike them where they are. Those civilian deaths are on the heads of the terrorists, their leaders, and the people who support them. Maybe if they would accept that Israel does and will exist and negotiate a settlement with the understanding that neither side will get EVERYTHING it wants, there could be an end to this. But alas, such is not the case. The terrorist organizations continue with their agenda of the destruction of the State of Israel and their cohorts support them. They've made their beds, so they can sleep in them.

The Torah states in very many places that G-d will give the land to the Children of Israel and that they are to take possession of it after crossing the Jordan River. Well, that's happened, ergo the belief that it's G-d's gift to the Jews.

Dolphan7
08-05-2008, 03:23 PM
Please read this and explain to me again about how Muslims are tolerant of other religions? This is in Indonesia, I'll warn you ahead of time that it is very graphic and not for children.


http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/11/islamic_jihad_i.htmlFrikin savages!

You don't respect basic human rights, you don't deserve basic human rights.

xMChemicalRx
08-05-2008, 07:44 PM
The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam.

Yes that's true. Absolutely. Killing of citizens half way across the world is NOT Jihad! It's all up to interpretation (Just like every religion) but the majority of Muslims believe that jihad occurs when you are defending NOT attacking. Jihad is constantly being taken out of context by the small minority that wage those acts of violence. They use it as a tool to promote their ideology.

How can Islam say that killing an innocent person is like killing everyone in the world, but yet approve the killings of those seen in that link you provided?

Those people from Indonesia are wrong. They are following the "terrorist Islam" not the right Islam. They will have to atone for their sins in hell. God will take care of that, it's not our job too.

I am simply just trying to state that it is not Islam that promotes these acts. Every religion has it's ugly side.

"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

From the bible. I mean in religion you have to just kind of have to omit some parts.

every religion has it's ugly side.

Deuteronomy 23:2
One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord

I mean those are just some. Torah, Buddhism EVERY religion has it's ugly side.

xMChemicalRx
08-05-2008, 07:51 PM
Maybe if they would accept that Israel does and will exist and negotiate a settlement with the understanding that neither side will get EVERYTHING it wants, there could be an end to this.

They is many ways of peace arabs will acknowledge isreal as long as two conditions are meet.

1)
Have the holy city of Jerusalem belong to both the jews and muslims. (I think it should be a universal city, or a city that belongs to no-one)

2)
Simpliy divide Isreal equally half Isreal and half Palestine.

Once those are achieved. The route for peace would be actually followed.

xMChemicalRx
08-05-2008, 07:56 PM
Islam is tolerant of other religions and so are muslims. They are less tolerant then most religions but they are tolerant. Here is a link of where you can look up all the churches in every country in the middle east.

http://arabicbible.com/ac/ac.htm

xMChemicalRx
08-05-2008, 08:11 PM
Bluefin how's it going man? You have given me about four warnings so far. It's pretty funny. Anyways, I wanted to say to you my friend that I hope you can look beyond the minority of Islam and just not look at it as an evil religion. You just worry me man because it seems like you have such hate for Islam and muslims.

I am a muslim and I'm also a dolphins fan! Come on, you can't possiablly hate me! I hate the jets, too. =)

Miamian
08-06-2008, 02:28 AM
They is many ways of peace arabs will acknowledge isreal as long as two conditions are meet.

1)
Have the holy city of Jerusalem belong to both the jews and muslims. (I think it should be a universal city, or a city that belongs to no-one) That's much more easily said than done. You're talking about having two governments that administer one city. Can you think of another example?

Who is going to provide services? If police are in hot pursuit in one area, will they have the right to pursue into the other? Who is going to approve building projects? Who is going to approve plans for the future of the city and according to what standards and criteria? Decisions about elements that mutually affect each other like housing density and transportation would have to be resolved and if one side approves plans that affect the other, would there be a redress of grievances?

All of that also ignores the core issue of core issues: The Temple Mount or as Arabs call it, Harum al-Sharif. Contrary to what many believe, but misunderstand, the Western Wall is the holiest place that Jews can access. The holiest place in the entire world to Jews is the rock on that mountain. That is where we believe that Abraham spared Isaac.

Even more than that, it would take a long, long time before trust would be invested to allow such a solution. To this day, imams deny that the Temple Mount ever even held a synagogue despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Before Israel captured East Jerusalem, Jews could not even pray at the Wall. It was used as a garbage dump. Synagogues were systematically destroyed. Two, the Hurva and Tif'eret Israel were left in destroyed states as reminders of why Jews need to keep Jerusalem. The Hurva itself had been destroyed by Muslims FOUR times in the past, most likely because they resented it being so grandiose. Hurva is derived from the verb lahrov (to be destroyed). It's under construction now, yet again. I can't wait to pray in it.



2)
Simpliy divide Isreal equally half Isreal and half Palestine.

Once those are achieved. The route for peace would be actually followed.
Again simply. First of all, one would have expected that a complete withdrawal from Gaza would have led to an easing of tensions and a reduction in violence from Palestinians. Well, sorry that didn't happen. The violence increased as Hamas used that as "proof" that violence is best to achieve its goals. And where do you draw that line anyway? How do you deal with existing communities?

I also have posted this same question many, many times and I have NEVER gotten an answer: why is it a problem for Israel to have sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank, yet it wasn't an issue when Egypt and Jordan were the occupiers?

Dolphan7
08-06-2008, 04:20 PM
The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam.

Yes that's true. Absolutely. Killing of citizens half way across the world is NOT Jihad! It's all up to interpretation (Just like every religion) but the majority of Muslims believe that jihad occurs when you are defending NOT attacking. Jihad is constantly being taken out of context by the small minority that wage those acts of violence. They use it as a tool to promote their ideology.

How can Islam say that killing an innocent person is like killing everyone in the world, but yet approve the killings of those seen in that link you provided?

Those people from Indonesia are wrong. They are following the "terrorist Islam" not the right Islam. They will have to atone for their sins in hell. God will take care of that, it's not our job too.

I am simply just trying to state that it is not Islam that promotes these acts. Every religion has it's ugly side.

"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

From the bible. I mean in religion you have to just kind of have to omit some parts.

every religion has it's ugly side.

Deuteronomy 23:2
One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord

I mean those are just some. Torah, Buddhism EVERY religion has it's ugly side.Certainly there are some ugly parts in the Koran and the Bible. But we don't just omit them, we try to understand them "in context" to whom they were written to and why, and other historic and cultural aspects.

Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are classic examples of the OT message that we can't ever be good enough, can't follow all these rules perfectly in order to appease God, thus a savior is needed who could do it perfectly, thus providing a bridge to God through Him - Jesus Christ.

The principle of Abrogation applies to both the Bible and the Koran, meaning that which came later supercedes that which came earlier.

In regards to the Koran we see an earlier ministry of Mohamed in Mecca that was more peacable and had a relatively small following. However when he migrated to Medina, we see a more aggressive doctrine and through violence the following grew exponentially. Abrogation says that this new doctrine of violence supercedes that of the more peacefull beginnings of Islam. It is during this time in Medina that the more violent writings were written, which leads to the argument that Islam is based on force and coersion and advocates violence and even death if Islam is not accepted and practiced. Now one could argue that Mohamed didn't plan to force people to his religion, but you can't ignore the fact that it was very advantageous for him in the later years.

MDFINFAN
08-06-2008, 06:56 PM
In light of Barrack Obama's own comments, and his strong support for muslims, as evidenced in his own words, (when the winds turn against them, he will support them), this is very disturbing.

http://www.rapturealert.com/2008/061508obamamuslim.asp

Nothing in his bio suggest this, only the radicials on the other side and underground right movement is trying to play this card.. Obama's father left when he was 2 years old, his mother was a non practicing Baptist.. He was in school in a foreign land for only a little while, he was raised mostly by his grandparents, who don't look like or seem to practice Muslim.. in Hawaii..I don't think intelligent ppl would buy this..but if you want to believe something you will no matter how much evidence is presented to disproved junk...junk sells in America period...

xMChemicalRx
08-06-2008, 09:24 PM
That's much more easily said than done. You're talking about having two governments that administer one city. Can you think of another example?

Who is going to provide services? If police are in hot pursuit in one area, will they have the right to pursue into the other? Who is going to approve building projects? Who is going to approve plans for the future of the city and according to what standards and criteria? Decisions about elements that mutually affect each other like housing density and transportation would have to be resolved and if one side approves plans that affect the other, would there be a redress of grievances?

All of that also ignores the core issue of core issues: The Temple Mount or as Arabs call it, Harum al-Sharif. Contrary to what many believe, but misunderstand, the Western Wall is the holiest place that Jews can access. The holiest place in the entire world to Jews is the rock on that mountain. That is where we believe that Abraham spared Isaac.

Even more than that, it would take a long, long time before trust would be invested to allow such a solution. To this day, imams deny that the Temple Mount ever even held a synagogue despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Before Israel captured East Jerusalem, Jews could not even pray at the Wall. It was used as a garbage dump. Synagogues were systematically destroyed. Two, the Hurva and Tif'eret Israel were left in destroyed states as reminders of why Jews need to keep Jerusalem. The Hurva itself had been destroyed by Muslims FOUR times in the past, most likely because they resented it being so grandiose. Hurva is derived from the verb lahrov (to be destroyed). It's under construction now, yet again. I can't wait to pray in it.


Again simply. First of all, one would have expected that a complete withdrawal from Gaza would have led to an easing of tensions and a reduction in violence from Palestinians. Well, sorry that didn't happen. The violence increased as Hamas used that as "proof" that violence is best to achieve its goals. And where do you draw that line anyway? How do you deal with existing communities?

I also have posted this same question many, many times and I have NEVER gotten an answer: why is it a problem for Israel to have sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank, yet it wasn't an issue when Egypt and Jordan were the occupiers?

I never said it was going to be easy to say that it is impossible or to imply it as you have done is a little disturbing. To answer your question about Isreal's sovereignty...

It's really an easy question to answer. Arabs like jews always consider themselves as one. If an arab country i.e Egypt and/or Jordan is to hold that land then It's like my brother is holding my land. I would rather have my brother then my enemy hold my land.

Since you disagree over my proposed road map to peace...What is your idea of how peace can be accomplished?

Miamian
08-07-2008, 03:15 AM
I never said it was going to be easy to say that it is impossible or to imply it as you have done is a little disturbing. To answer your question about Isreal's sovereignty...

It's really an easy question to answer. Arabs like jews always consider themselves as one. If an arab country i.e Egypt and/or Jordan is to hold that land then It's like my brother is holding my land. I would rather have my brother then my enemy hold my land.

Since you disagree over my proposed road map to peace...What is your idea of how peace can be accomplished?You imply that it would be easy with the word "simply."

But, in the case since all Arabs are one there's really no need for a Palestinian state then, is there? I also find it disturbing that there would be no problem with Jordan, vis a vis Israel, holding that land considering history:

Black September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan)


Estimates of the number of the people killed in the ten days of Black September range from three thousand to more than five thousand, although exact numbers are unknown. The Palestinian death toll in 11 days of fighting was estimated at 3,400, though Arafat claimed that 20,000 had been killed.[6] The Western reporters were concentrated at the Intercontinental Hotel, away from the action. Nasser's state-controlled Voice of the Arabs from Cairo reported genocide. Yet, that's not an issue.

I actually support a two-state solution, but only after the terrorist infrastructure is dismantled. No Right of Return and status quo in Jerusalem. The government of "Palestine" can have its offices in Jerusalem, however it remains undivided and the Temple Mount under Israeli sovereignty. Israeli settlement blocks in the West Bank west of the security barrier remain.

xMChemicalRx
08-07-2008, 11:07 AM
"era of regrettable events." First paragraph. In all reality, no, it's not a issue. Civil war happened in America between the South and the North is that an issue? Currently, Jordan is comprised of a population that is 50% Palestinian. Since, you want to bring up "massacres", which Black September was not, (It was a battle of military powers):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_in_Palestine

There are 23 different massacres by Israeli forces. Including, Hafia, the city of 5,000 + Palestinians and 30 Christians. That were massacred by Israeli forces. It was civilians that died. Not a military force like black September.

Black September and the 23 massacres done by Israel are not even on the same level. I'm sorry but your argument is weak.

Miamian
08-07-2008, 12:00 PM
"era of regrettable events." First paragraph. In all reality, no, it's not a issue. Civil war happened in America between the South and the North is that an issue? Currently, Jordan is comprised of a population that is 50% Palestinian. Since, you want to bring up "massacres", which Black September was not, (It was a battle of military powers):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_in_Palestine

There are 23 different massacres by Israeli forces. Including, Hafia, the city of 5,000 + Palestinians and 30 Christians. That were massacred by Israeli forces. It was civilians that died. Not a military force like black September.

Black September and the 23 massacres done by Israel are not even on the same level. I'm sorry but your argument is weak.Man, you must have been spoon fed on the "evil Jew" propaganda because you obviously aren't reading.

From the Black September link


The number of casualties in what resembled a civil war is estimated at tens of thousands, and both sides were involved in intentional killing of civilians. It was a turning point for Jordanian identity, as the kingdom embarked on the program of "Jordanization" of the society. This is in direct contrast to Israeli military strikes with human shields in the way.

From your list: Balad al Shayk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balad_al-Shaykh_massacre)


The Palmach, an arm of the Haganah, attacked the town, firing from the slopes of Mount Carmel, in retribution for the killing of 41[citation needed] Jews during the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre the day before.

The Arab attack was justified?

Beit Nabala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_Nabala)


A massacre by the Arab Legion of a civilian Jewish bus convoy took place near the village on December 14, 1947, following the Arab rejection of the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Fourteen Jews were killed and ten injured (nine seriously) on the road from Petah Tikva to Ben Shemen. One British soldier was seriously injured and one slightly wounded. The Arab Legion claimed that a member of the convoy had carried out a grenade attack the previous night on the Arab Legion camp. This was one of the first confirmed involvements of the Arab Legion in attacks on Jews in Palestine.

This was an attack by Israeli forces? Israeli Arab forces, maybe

Ben Yehuda Street bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Yehuda_Street_bombings)


The Ben Yehuda Street bombings refer to a series of attacks by Arab terrorists and suicide bombers on civilians in downtown Jerusalem, Israel from 1948 until today. The attacks were carried out on a main street, later a pedestrian mall, named for the founder of modern Hebrew, Eliezer Ben Yehuda.

I really would like to see how you call this a massacre by Israeli forces.

Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre)

A single individual

Hadassah_medical_convoy_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_al-Zeitun_massacreEin_al-Zeitun_massacre[/URL]


According to Palmach soldier Nativa Ben-Yehuda, the captive men were tied up and thrown into the deep gully between Ein al Zeitun and left for two days. Kelman then decided to "get rid of this problem altogether" but most of his men refused. Finally he found two willing to do it and the prisoners were killed. Two days later, word of the massacre leaked out and it was feared that British or UN investigators would arrive, so some soldiers including Ben-Yehuda were detailed to untie the corpses and bury them.

That was an atrocity committed by a couple of individuals. The others probably had the emotions to carry out the act but refrained from doing so. That's the key difference here.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadassah_medical_convoy_massacre)


The Hadassah medical convoy massacre took place on April 13, 1948, when a civilian convoy, escorted by Haganah militia, bringing medical and fortification supplies and personnel to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus was ambushed by Arab forces.[1] Seventy-nine Jews, including doctors and nurses, were killed in the attack. [2]

1929_Hebron_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre)


The Hebron Massacre refers to the mass murder of sixty-seven Jews on 23 and 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of the British Mandate of Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by false rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs[citation needed] in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places. This massacre, together with that of Safed, sent shock waves through Jewish communities in Palestine and across the world.

the other Hebron massacres are included in the link as well as this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron_massacres)


The murder of 12 Israeli soldiers and security forces and wounding of 16 civilians, after Palestinians opened fire with rifles and grenades on a group of Jews (accompanied by an armed escort) returning from Sabbath prayers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs, then ambushed soldiers, ambulances, and rescue workers who arrived at the scene in response to the attack on November 15, 2002.

Kfar_Etzion_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre)
The Kfar Etzion massacre was an act committed by Arab armed forces on May 13, 1948, the day before the Declaration of Independence of the state of Israel.

King_David_Hotel_bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing)


As part of the Irgun plan, a sixteen year old recruit, Adina Hay (alias Tehia), made three calls warning of the attack. Not something that Arabs often do.

1929_Safed_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Safed_massacre)


The 1929 Safed massacre took place on 29 August during the 1929 Palestine riots. Eighteen Jews were killed (some sources say twenty) and eighty wounded.[1] The main Jewish street was looted and burned.[2][3]
Sign directing to the section in Safed's cemetery where the Jews murdered in 1929 are buried
Sign directing to the section in Safed's cemetery where the Jews murdered in 1929 are buried

The members of the Commission of Inquiry visited the town on 1 November.[4]

Have Israelis and Jewish fighters been guilty of heinous acts. Yes, they have. However, this attempt ascribe death tolls to Israel when many, if not most of the the acts were carried out by Arabs against Jews is nothing short of irresponsible.

Weak indeed.

xMChemicalRx
08-07-2008, 04:06 PM
Man, you must have been spoon fed on the "evil Jew" propaganda because you obviously aren't reading.

LOL :lol: This is so much fun. Here we are in a fin forum talking about Palestine and Israel. I'll tell you man, you never seize to surprise me, not in a bad way Miamian. You are very entertaining to argue with. Once, I think I got you on the ropes you comeback with a post that's twice as long. lol. It's cool man.

The "evil Jew" propaganda you talk about is insane. My best friend, Josh, is Jewish. I don't hate a group of people. I might hate their actions but not the group. The reason I keep writing on this thread, is because I want to convince everyone that...

1) Islam is not evil
2) Muslim people are not evil
3) A very small percentage of Muslim people are terrorist.
4) A Palestinian state must be established, for peace.

I am reading, miamian. It is ambiguous because you can say that Israel is involved in "killing of civilians". It doesn't say whether or not it was intentional.

Even if it was, Israel has done much more worse things to Palestinians then Jordan has. I'm sure you can agree with that. That is why it is better for Jordan to occupy Gaza and the west bank then Israel.

BlueFin
08-07-2008, 07:11 PM
The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam.

Yes that's true. Absolutely. Killing of citizens half way across the world is NOT Jihad! It's all up to interpretation (Just like every religion) but the majority of Muslims believe that jihad occurs when you are defending NOT attacking. Jihad is constantly being taken out of context by the small minority that wage those acts of violence. They use it as a tool to promote their ideology.

How can Islam say that killing an innocent person is like killing everyone in the world, but yet approve the killings of those seen in that link you provided?

Those people from Indonesia are wrong. They are following the "terrorist Islam" not the right Islam. They will have to atone for their sins in hell. God will take care of that, it's not our job too.

I am simply just trying to state that it is not Islam that promotes these acts. Every religion has it's ugly side.

"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

From the bible. I mean in religion you have to just kind of have to omit some parts.

every religion has it's ugly side.

Deuteronomy 23:2
One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord

I mean those are just some. Torah, Buddhism EVERY religion has it's ugly side.

Sorry that I'm just responding to this, I've been away for a few days.....

Let me ask you a question? Do you think countries where Muslims are the majority are more or less tolerant of other religions within their borders than other countries around the world are in regards to Muslims in their countries?

In other words, is it easier to be a Muslim in America than it is to be a Christian or Jew in Indonesia or Iran or any other Muslim country for that matter? And if you agree with that, what does it suggest to you?

xMChemicalRx
08-08-2008, 12:10 AM
Yeah man. I agree with you it's defiantly harder to be a Christian or Jew in a Muslim country, BUT it is not a death sentence nor is it a social stigma. Muslims are less tolerant then most religion but they are not completely intolerant as you guys suggest. I have direct proof of this, first-hand experience. There are also churches in Muslim countries. (See link in previous post)

Miamian
08-08-2008, 03:52 AM
LOL :lol: This is so much fun. Here we are in a fin forum talking about Palestine and Israel. I'll tell you man, you never seize to surprise me, not in a bad way Miamian. You are very entertaining to argue with. Once, I think I got you on the ropes you comeback with a post that's twice as long. lol. It's cool man.

The "evil Jew" propaganda you talk about is insane. My best friend, Josh, is Jewish. I don't hate a group of people. I might hate their actions but not the group. The reason I keep writing on this thread, is because I want to convince everyone that...

1) Islam is not evil
2) Muslim people are not evil
3) A very small percentage of Muslim people are terrorist.
4) A Palestinian state must be established, for peace.

I am reading, miamian. It is ambiguous because you can say that Israel is involved in "killing of civilians". It doesn't say whether or not it was intentional.

Even if it was, Israel has done much more worse things to Palestinians then Jordan has. I'm sure you can agree with that. That is why it is better for Jordan to occupy Gaza and the west bank then Israel.Okay, okay. You've convinced me that you're not going to try to kill me one day. I was actually very impressed with your friend request. I nearly fell off my chair. When I've made overtures to other Arab members there's been only coldness in response. I wouldn't classify all Muslims that way because an Iranian poster who hasn't been here lately was very warm and receptive to me.

The reason that it seemed to me that you assume Jews to be the evil enemy is that I don't think you looked through the list that you posted. It's by and large Arab attacks against Jews and the "23 massacres done by Israel" match exactly the number in that list.

I do accept that you don't hate Jews, but I also can't help think of a similar experience. One of my ex-colleagues at Miami-Dade County is a Pakistani Muslim architect and planner. I'm a planner also. We had always gotten along well in fact, I once had an idea for downtown Miami to develop the Park West neighborhood and invited him to join along with a couple of other colleagues. It was to have a religious theme that would include a mosque and synagogue. In fact, he insisted on a synagogue. After awhile the group fell apart and I eventually teamed up with another architect, but there were no hard feelings among any of us.

However, after some time I became more and more religious and after visiting Israel on what I call my "decision trip," I started wearing a kippa. It's very common in Israel and I just got into the habit. After returning to Miami, he took note of the kippa and his countenance fell. I honestly don't remember that we've exchanged words since then. Please don't take that as my turning my back on you, in fact I accept your invitation.

As to your last point about intentional killings, it's first illegal in Israel. I have a friend who's a border guard here and he's told me that if you fire a gun, you'd better be certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that you had a justifiable reason. There have been cases of soldiers who have broken that law and then it's gone through the legal process and they're jailed if convicted. That's why I object to calling Israel's killing of civilians "intentional." There's no way for a bullet or bomb to differentiate between a terrorist and a civilian, be he/she a human shield or not. Like any other country, Israel's first and foremost responsibility is to its own people and therefore we must eliminate the threats against us. It's unfortunate that the Palestinians capitalize on that need by using human shields.

As for Jordan being worse, if it's shown that they were wanton in their killing of civilians, as opposed to Israel, then I don't see how it's better under them. Black September in just one episode had almost as high a death toll for Palestinians as the Intifada.

Miamian
08-08-2008, 03:59 AM
Yeah man. I agree with you it's defiantly harder to be a Christian or Jew in a Muslim country, BUT it is not a death sentence nor is it a social stigma. Muslims are less tolerant then most religion but they are not completely intolerant as you guys suggest. I have direct proof of this, first-hand experience. There are also churches in Muslim countries. (See link in previous post)If I may, it depends on the country. Saudi Arabia forbids the practice of any religion except Islam and will not permit entry for anyone carrying a cross or Bible. Afghanistan, under the Taliban, destroyed the Buddha statues, a UNESCO World Heritage site because having them doesn't jibe with Islam. Iran has recently required people to wear badges according to religion. From what I can see, I could walk around Morocco and Turkey with a kippa and tsitsit and not have to worry.

http://images.google.co.il/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=kippa&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

http://images.google.co.il/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=tsitsit&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

Miamian
08-08-2008, 07:52 AM
Here's a good example (http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1062554702&postcount=1)

xMChemicalRx
08-08-2008, 10:49 AM
The reason that it seemed to me that you assume Jews to be the evil enemy is that I don't think you looked through the list that you posted. It's by and large Arab attacks against Jews and the "23 massacres done by Israel" match exactly the number in that list.

I admit I did not look through the list, my girlfriend was getting mad because we were running late. Still, it was pretty classless to do that. My apologizes.

My god man. It's just crazy how Arab's and Jew's are so alike. We have very similar stuff such as the kippa and tsitsit. Have you seen House, lately? In the last episode they were treating a jewish women after her wedding. It showed her wedding. It looks like a arab wedding except the chair part lol. That was cool though. Her husband look just like my uncle he was wearing both the tsitsit and kippa.

xMChemicalRx
08-08-2008, 10:57 AM
If I may, it depends on the country. Saudi Arabia forbids the practice of any religion except Islam and will not permit entry for anyone carrying a cross or Bible. Afghanistan, under the Taliban, destroyed the Buddha statues, a UNESCO World Heritage site because having them doesn't jibe with Islam. Iran has recently required people to wear badges according to religion. From what I can see, I could walk around Morocco and Turkey with a kippa and tsitsit and not have to worry.

http://images.google.co.il/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=kippa&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

http://images.google.co.il/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=tsitsit&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2


Whew. I knew this was coming. There really is no defense for Saudi Arabia. I really HATE the way they run the country. Religious police?!? It's really dumb. They are the worst in terms of how tolerant they are of other religions. They are so intolerant that they even prosecute other Muslims who are walking with a girl that is not their mom or sister. It's a horrible place to be in.

Afghanistan is doing good now in terms of tolerance. Taliban was to blame.

Miamian
08-08-2008, 11:06 AM
I admit I did not look through the list, my girlfriend was getting mad because we were running late. Still, it was pretty classless to do that. My apologizes.

My god man. It's just crazy how Arab's and Jew's are so alike. We have very similar stuff such as the kippa and tsitsit. Have you seen House, lately? In the last episode they were treating a jewish women after her wedding. It showed her wedding. It looks like a arab wedding except the chair part lol. That was cool though. Her husband look just like my uncle he was wearing both the tsitsit and kippa.
I understand, no big deal.

There are bound to be similarities, especially among the Sfaradi Jews. In fact, once I spent Passover with a Yemeni family and they have the tradition of reading one of the passages in Arabic transliterated into Hebrew.

xMChemicalRx
08-08-2008, 11:12 AM
I do accept that you don't hate Jews, but I also can't help think of a similar experience. One of my ex-colleagues at Miami-Dade County is a Pakistani Muslim architect and planner. I'm a planner also. We had always gotten along well in fact, I once had an idea for downtown Miami to develop the Park West neighborhood and invited him to join along with a couple of other colleagues. It was to have a religious theme that would include a mosque and synagogue. In fact, he insisted on a synagogue. After awhile the group fell apart and I eventually teamed up with another architect, but there were no hard feelings among any of us.

However, after some time I became more and more religious and after visiting Israel on what I call my "decision trip," I started wearing a kippa. It's very common in Israel and I just got into the habit. After returning to Miami, he took note of the kippa and his countenance fell. I honestly don't remember that we've exchanged words since then. Please don't take that as my turning my back on you, in fact I accept your invitation.




I have a friend named rus, who wears both kippa and the tsitsit. He was always trying to convince me to convert. lol. He was a cool guy though. I am very tolerant, but yeah I can see how some Muslims would be turned away from that kippa and tsitsit. It's stupid in my opinion, but I guess it's better than other less tolerant Muslims. It still needs to change. The way I look at it miamian, it is constantly changing. If you look 30 years ago and compare it to now, it has improved dramatically. Sometimes, Arabs are stuck in the past. More and more Arab countries are coming into the present and not the past.

xMChemicalRx
08-08-2008, 11:19 AM
What does your sig. say? Do you live in Miami or Jerusalem? My other uncle Aziz is an architect in Miami. He graduated from the University of Miami. I wonder if you know him. He is very successful and is actually a millionaire. Anyways, thanks for accepting the friend invite.

Miamian
08-08-2008, 11:31 AM
I have a friend named rus, who wears both kippa and the tsitsit. He was always trying to convince me to convert. lol. He was a cool guy though. I am very tolerant, but yeah I can see how some Muslims would be turned away from that kippa and tsitsit. It's stupid in my opinion, but I guess it's better than other less tolerant Muslims. It still needs to change. The way I look at it miamian, it is constantly changing. If you look 30 years ago and compare it to now, it has improved dramatically. Sometimes, Arabs are stuck in the past. More and more Arab countries are coming into the present and not the past.He tried to convert you???? That's almost off the wall. Unlike many other religions, Judaism doesn't actively seek converts. A person can convert if he/she wishes, but it is not easy. They have to study as much as for many masters' programs.

I personally find that distasteful. I had a suite-mate in college who actively tried to do that to me but to Catholocism. He's also wasn't the most moral person in the world, aside from the attempts at conversion.

I think that you're still imbued with the optimism of youth and that's a wonderful feeling, I sometimes miss it. My personal experience hasn't been that great. I'll never how one of my neighbors in Miami, who's Palestinian and had once thought that I was an Arab turned against me when he saw my tallit, the prayer shawl. The store in the building where I used to live was run by Palestinians and they were usually very cool (in the negative sense) if not cold to me. It turned worse when I started wearing a kippa. For those who know Miami, it's Biscayne View, the taller of the two apartment complexes near the "old" arena.

Even with that, don't forget that you live in the land of tolerance, comparatively speaking. As you can imagine in Israel, especially in Jerusalem, it can get a bit nastier. Thank G-d that I've never encountered a serious problem.

Miamian
08-08-2008, 11:34 AM
What does your sig. say? Do you live in Miami or Jerusalem? My other uncle Aziz is an architect in Miami. He graduated from the University of Miami. I wonder if you know him. He is very successful and is actually a millionaire. Anyways, thanks for accepting the friend invite.
I'm from Miami, I live in Jerusalem. I actually did grad school at Florida and undergrad at Florida State so I wouldn't know your uncle unless he does a lot of work with the County. I have former colleagues that probably know him.

Thanks for sending the invite.

xMChemicalRx
08-09-2008, 10:36 AM
He tried to convert you???? That's almost off the wall. Unlike many other religions, Judaism doesn't actively seek converts. A person can convert if he/she wishes, but it is not easy. They have to study as much as for many masters' programs.

I personally find that distasteful. I had a suite-mate in college who actively tried to do that to me but to Catholocism. He's also wasn't the most moral person in the world, aside from the attempts at conversion.

I think that you're still imbued with the optimism of youth and that's a wonderful feeling, I sometimes miss it. My personal experience hasn't been that great. I'll never how one of my neighbors in Miami, who's Palestinian and had once thought that I was an Arab turned against me when he saw my tallit, the prayer shawl. The store in the building where I used to live was run by Palestinians and they were usually very cool (in the negative sense) if not cold to me. It turned worse when I started wearing a kippa. For those who know Miami, it's Biscayne View, the taller of the two apartment complexes near the "old" arena.

Even with that, don't forget that you live in the land of tolerance, comparatively speaking. As you can imagine in Israel, especially in Jerusalem, it can get a bit nastier. Thank G-d that I've never encountered a serious problem.

Yeah man stay safe. I hope to go to Palestine sometime soon. I was very surprised to see that Palestine was in the Olympics. We had 4 athletes lol. I hate arabs like the one you mentioned. It's not right.

Miamian
08-10-2008, 01:33 PM
Yeah man stay safe. I hope to go to Palestine sometime soon. I was very surprised to see that Palestine was in the Olympics. We had 4 athletes lol. I hate arabs like the one you mentioned. It's not right.
Thanks. You should be aware that if you decide to travel to Syria or Lebanon, they will not let you in after visiting Israel. You will also need to show that you will not be leaving from Israel afterward.