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View Full Version : Is Tom Brady the Best Ever?



FinGator
07-08-2008, 10:51 AM
I am about as large a Dolphin fan as anyone, so it pains me to think it. But as a football fan, I have to consider that Tom Brady is the best QB ever. Granted he does some douchey things like knockup his girlfriend and then leave her right after, but on the field the man is a machine. Let's face it, if it was Peyton Manning with Tom's exact accomplishments, there would be no doubt.

So, do you think Tom is the greatest QB ever? If so, why? If not, why not?


p.s. I hate the Pats, and if they all suffered career ending injuries, I would sleep better at night. I work with some people that are from Boston and they go on and on about the stinkin Pats all the time.

fatkirstyalley
07-08-2008, 10:58 AM
How dare you ask a question such as this. If Marino (who is the best ever) had the supporting cast and played with all these freakin rules changes that were not in effect while he played he would be WIDELY considered the best. I would like to see Brady quarterbacking the 92 dolphins that went to the AFC Championship game. Dink and Dunk wouldnt get it done. I am offended!

HybridPHIN 23
07-08-2008, 11:04 AM
If he is the greatest QB....... there's an asterisk there..... Don't tell me having your coaches stealing the opponents defensive signals won't help the QB immensly.

clownfish
07-08-2008, 11:04 AM
Lets not forget Pretty Boy's best season ever with the record breaking 50 TD passes was with Randy Moss. You know, the throw-the-rock-anywhere-within-the-vicinity-and-its-a-catch Randy Moss. The one that made Culpepper look like he might be our next superstar QB (We all know how he faired and I was a huge supporter of his). Yeah, thats the Randy Moss I'm talkin about. F Brady and his man-purse and his poofy shirt. Dan Marino is the best pure QB in NFL history, hands down.

phinfan33
07-08-2008, 11:09 AM
how about a big fat NOOOOOOOO!!!!!! my opinion is that Brady has been a product of Belichick's cheating,plus referees helping the Pats out in games by making calls that assist them. look at this past SB,the Giants D made Brady look exactly like he is, a 6th rd draft pick,and at best,mediocre. plus Belicheat just got plain out-coached by Coughlin in that game...when he couldn't cheat and the Pats had to play straight up fair&square,yes the score was close,but they got man-handled by the Giants Defense.

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 12:13 PM
Tom Brady is a good QB with a good head on his shoulders, he has a great arm from the 5-18 yard mark, other than that i dont believe hes all to special. Some might say why would you need anything else and that might be true depending on what style football your team plays. But the bottom line is that he cant throw a accurate deep ball, once his line breaks down or he is flushed outta the pocket he becomes below average QB. I say take away the great line and put in a ok line and hes in trouble. A lot of Qb's become below average tho when you are scrambled away or underpressure etc. but thats what seperates the good qb's from the greats. Tom brady is a lot of things but the best he isnt.

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 12:17 PM
how about a big fat NOOOOOOOO!!!!!! my opinion is that Brady has been a product of Belichick's cheating,plus referees helping the Pats out in games by making calls that assist them. look at this past SB,the Giants D made Brady look exactly like he is, a 6th rd draft pick,and at best,mediocre. plus Belicheat just got plain out-coached by Coughlin in that game...when he couldn't cheat and the Pats had to play straight up fair&square,yes the score was close,but they got man-handled by the Giants Defense.

i wouldnt go that far to say that he looked like he was a 6th round draft pick. Tom is still good regardless of the whole spygate BS, with that being said the Giants D did level the playing field and like i said when brady gets pressure he gets average. Tom still played an ok game that day, he prob didnt do anything diff its just the D out played there line and he broke down because of it.

Seriously as a QB if you get 4-6 1/2 seconds to sit back and throw a football you should break some records.

Fin-Fan-13
07-08-2008, 12:18 PM
Tom Brady is a good QB with a good head on his shoulders, he has a great arm from the 5-18 yard mark, other than that i dont believe hes all to special. Some might say why would you need anything else and that might be true depending on what style football your team plays. But the bottom line is that he cant throw a accurate deep ball, once his line breaks down or he is flushed outta the pocket he becomes below average QB. I say take away the great line and put in a ok line and hes in trouble. A lot of Qb's become below average tho when you are scrambled away or underpressure etc. but thats what seperates the good qb's from the greats. Tom brady is a lot of things but the best he isnt.

I agree with this post.

BobDole
07-08-2008, 12:21 PM
definitely not the best ever. ditto on the when he is under pressure he is not the same qb. he gets flustered extremely easily when the d is in his face.

and with spygate and the fact that he might have known all along what the d was gonna do, no way he can even be in consideration.

i wouldn't consider him the best regardless of what was mentioned above based on the smugness and entitlement. i hate him. bad.

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 12:30 PM
definitely not the best ever. ditto on the when he is under pressure he is not the same qb. he gets flustered extremely easily when the d is in his face.

and with spygate and the fact that he might have known all along what the d was gonna do, no way he can even be in consideration.

i wouldn't consider him the best regardless of what was mentioned above based on the smugness and entitlement. i hate him. bad.
I hate his guts with a passion as well as do i hate Peyton manning. A lot of people need to realize that it does take a lot of skill to read the D (or there signals) and make accurate throws, but it doesnt take a lot of skill for the QB to sit back for 4- 6 seconds and pick away at the D, Heck an amazing O line could make AJ Feely look like a mini brady. Bottom line is i dont take away from the skill either has i would just like to level the playing field a little by only givin them 2 - 3 seconds to throw the football then we can see how they perform. Without doing that i already know what happens the both get taken down a peg in the performance dept. no one can expect a QB to get a passrusher in his face 1 second after he takes that snap while the WR is still trying to get seperation.

MR NFLFAN
07-08-2008, 12:38 PM
Brady is not the best ever QB to date but he will be by the time he closes out his career. He will be the benchmark for which all others will be measured against.

:up:

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 12:44 PM
Brady is not the best ever QB to date but he will be by the time he closes out his career. He will be the benchmark for which all others will be measured against.

:up:

Not sure its gonna be tough. He would have to put up some crazy numbers for a few more seasons to have so much seperation from any other qb in history to be the "benchmark". Its silly to think that they can mirror the same numbers they produced last season, chances are unlikely.

BobDole
07-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Brady is not the best ever QB to date but he will be by the time he closes out his career. He will be the benchmark for which all others will be measured against.

:up:


not. a. chance.

sorry.

jp2lee783
07-08-2008, 01:47 PM
he's the best

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 01:51 PM
he's the best
IN THE AFC EAST!

jp2lee783
07-08-2008, 01:54 PM
also true

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 01:55 PM
also true
I wouldnt say in the nfl but he is top 3 in my books. In history he maybe grabs a 10 spot but he still has some years to go.

BobDole
07-08-2008, 02:04 PM
i would put marino, young, and unitas in front of him. and that's just off the top of my head. there's more.

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 02:10 PM
i would put marino, young, and unitas in front of him. and that's just off the top of my head. there's more.
There is so many intangables that make up a great QB and Brady only has a few. Marino, unitas, elway are on my list to name a few as well

ch19079
07-08-2008, 02:13 PM
I would take Payton right now over Brady. I can not say someone is the best QB ever when hes not even the best QB right now.

the SB wins and record are a result of the head coach (with or without the cheating). If you put Brady on any other team, he would be simply above average.

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 02:16 PM
I would take Payton right now over Brady. I can not say someone is the best QB ever when hes not even the best QB right now.

the SB wins and record are a result of the head coach (with or without the cheating). If you put Brady on any other team, he would be simply above average.

If there was a scale from 1-10 he would be a 9 in my books with the pats. Without the pats maybe a 7. They just fit to well together.

BobDole
07-08-2008, 02:35 PM
There is so many intangables that make up a great QB and Brady only has a few. Marino, unitas, elway are on my list to name a few as well

i agree with that. i think elway would be ahead of him too.

take away that line and he's just another qb. not having composure under fire is huge.

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 02:44 PM
i agree with that. i think elway would be ahead of him too.

take away that line and he's just another qb. not having composure under fire is huge.
Ya i think elway was great at that, guy was tough. would run for the first, he aint no runner lol.

nyjunc
07-08-2008, 04:00 PM
How dare you ask a question such as this. If Marino (who is the best ever) had the supporting cast and played with all these freakin rules changes that were not in effect while he played he would be WIDELY considered the best. I would like to see Brady quarterbacking the 92 dolphins that went to the AFC Championship game. Dink and Dunk wouldnt get it done. I am offended!

Brady has had better D's but Brady's supporting cast on O has been mostly medicore until he got Moss. Brady absolutely deserves to be in the discussion along w/ Montana, Marino, Graham and Unitas but it's still too early to call him the best.

fatkirstyalley
07-08-2008, 05:15 PM
Brady has had better D's but Brady's supporting cast on O has been mostly medicore until he got Moss. Brady absolutely deserves to be in the discussion along w/ Montana, Marino, Graham and Unitas but it's still too early to call him the best.
Come on Junc you have to hate Brady as much as I do. Brady is the best late round qb of all time, I will give him that one. I tend not to judge QB's on SuperBowls won (I think you know why :() and from a pure ability to play the game at a special level I dont see Brady in that conversation. Marino, Unitas, Elway, Bradshaw and Montana had that ability. I personally put all of the Pats titles on their defense and Adam V. Brady is overrated!!!!!! there I said it

nyjunc
07-08-2008, 05:27 PM
Come on Junc you have to hate Brady as much as I do. Brady is the best late round qb of all time, I will give him that one. I tend not to judge QB's on SuperBowls won (I think you know why :() and from a pure ability to play the game at a special level I dont see Brady in that conversation. Marino, Unitas, Elway, Bradshaw and Montana had that ability. I personally put all of the Pats titles on their defense and Adam V. Brady is overrated!!!!!! there I said it

The man won 3 Super Bowls including leading GW drives in the final minutes in 2 of them and he threw 50 TD passes a year ago leading his team to a 16-0 regular season. if that's not a special level I do not know what is. Let's also not forget NE was a franchise heading in the wrong direction. Their record was getting worse every year going from 11 wins in '96 to 10 in '97, 9 in '98, 8 in '99 then 5 in 2000. In '01 w/o Brady they started 0-2 then went 11-3 w/ him. It wasn't a coincidence. I absolutely hate Brady as I hated Marino but I appreciate what both were able(and in Brady's case still able) to do.

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 06:34 PM
Come on Junc you have to hate Brady as much as I do. Brady is the best late round qb of all time, I will give him that one. I tend not to judge QB's on SuperBowls won (I think you know why :() and from a pure ability to play the game at a special level I dont see Brady in that conversation. Marino, Unitas, Elway, Bradshaw and Montana had that ability. I personally put all of the Pats titles on their defense and Adam V. Brady is overrated!!!!!! there I said it
Watch out saying Brady is overrated, i got lynched for it!

godolphins1985
07-08-2008, 06:43 PM
The man won 3 Super Bowls including leading GW drives in the final minutes in 2 of them and he threw 50 TD passes a year ago leading his team to a 16-0 regular season. if that's not a special level I do not know what is. Let's also not forget NE was a franchise heading in the wrong direction. Their record was getting worse every year going from 11 wins in '96 to 10 in '97, 9 in '98, 8 in '99 then 5 in 2000. In '01 w/o Brady they started 0-2 then went 11-3 w/ him. It wasn't a coincidence. I absolutely hate Brady as I hated Marino but I appreciate what both were able(and in Brady's case still able) to do.

Its hard to stand up and say that Tom brady lead them to 16-0, its a team effort and tom sure did help but he wasnt alone. As a whole that team is good, Tom just so happen to have big time reciever for once and a go to guy. Of course hes gonna get 50 TD when you got Moss catching jump balls and you have 7 seconds to sit back behind the line and sip some tea. I think people put to much emphasis on the fact that they were 0-2 at start then he lead them to the superbowl, Brady stepped into a system that was built for him in mind,bledsoe not so much. But then again we are talking about the walking sack of potatoes, Bledsoe got sacked often and was innacurate. I cant and nor should anyone else take anything away from what he did or has done cause it still takes talent. But everyone must also look at the other things that come into his success...Line, Coaching, WR, and have the opposing teams signals doesnt hurt either. To make an accurate assesment of the all time greats you must really look deep at the team itself to totally guage each player accuratly :)

gofins
07-08-2008, 10:50 PM
No.

BARF
07-08-2008, 11:32 PM
i have said time after time he is only good because of the o line. i love marino but after it is said and done i think manning will be the best ever

nyjunc
07-09-2008, 07:06 AM
Its hard to stand up and say that Tom brady lead them to 16-0, its a team effort and tom sure did help but he wasnt alone. As a whole that team is good, Tom just so happen to have big time reciever for once and a go to guy. Of course hes gonna get 50 TD when you got Moss catching jump balls and you have 7 seconds to sit back behind the line and sip some tea. I think people put to much emphasis on the fact that they were 0-2 at start then he lead them to the superbowl, Brady stepped into a system that was built for him in mind,bledsoe not so much. But then again we are talking about the walking sack of potatoes, Bledsoe got sacked often and was innacurate. I cant and nor should anyone else take anything away from what he did or has done cause it still takes talent. But everyone must also look at the other things that come into his success...Line, Coaching, WR, and have the opposing teams signals doesnt hurt either. To make an accurate assesment of the all time greats you must really look deep at the team itself to totally guage each player accuratly :)

Just look at Belichick's record pre-Brady and let me know what you see, check out NE's records the few years before he got there. Brady instantly made them a contender, NE couldn't do anything against us all day long w/ Bledsoe then Brady comes in late and magically the O starts moving the ball and although we won 10-3 the game ended at our 2 yard line. he just ran out of time, had he come in a few series earlier NE would at least have sent that game to OT. Tom Brady is BY FAR the best QB of his generation and very much in the discussion for best of all time.


i have said time after time he is only good because of the o line. i love marino but after it is said and done i think manning will be the best ever

Put Brady on Indy and Manning on nE and I think NE maybe has 1 SB while Indy has at least 2-3. Manning is a big time choker, he is the anti-Tom Brady. He has a LONG way to go to catch Brady.

godolphins1985
07-09-2008, 09:08 AM
Just look at Belichick's record pre-Brady and let me know what you see, check out NE's records the few years before he got there. Brady instantly made them a contender, NE couldn't do anything against us all day long w/ Bledsoe then Brady comes in late and magically the O starts moving the ball and although we won 10-3 the game ended at our 2 yard line. he just ran out of time, had he come in a few series earlier NE would at least have sent that game to OT. Tom Brady is BY FAR the best QB of his generation and very much in the discussion for best of all time.



Put Brady on Indy and Manning on nE and I think NE maybe has 1 SB while Indy has at least 2-3. Manning is a big time choker, he is the anti-Tom Brady. He has a LONG way to go to catch Brady.

First off like i said in one of my posts is that Bledsoe is no brady, bledsoe being there and having no success is directly tied to the patriots losing record. You are correct in saying that Brady stepped in and magically they go on to the superbowl. It is no mystery, its just he is a product of the system he was produced for. But just because Tom did it doesnt mean another managable QB couldnt have brought them to the superbowl as well.
You also speak of there record before brady got there ( you said few years), well belicheat also wasnt there and has nothing to do with that regime. One has nothing to do with the other.
I wouldnt say that Manning is a big time choker because he has pulled off a lot of 4th quarter comebacks, so can you explain what choking has to do with him having a LONGGGGGG way to go to catch brady , how?

fatkirstyalley
07-09-2008, 09:13 AM
Watch out saying Brady is overrated, i got lynched for it!
Thanks for the heads up. If I get Lynched I get Lynched I dont care. Im a Biased Dolphin fan and if another finfan wants to stick for that Pretty little turd then they have every right. Tom Brady is OVERRATED! He is a great quaterback...I used the word great because he is, but he is not Legendary. Who knows what type of advantages he recieved due to the Pats cheating, normally you get caught doing about 10-20% of what you have actually done. Plus, playing in an offense that throws the ball 65% of the time played a large role in his numbers. OVERRATED

godolphins1985
07-09-2008, 09:13 AM
you also say they should be at 2-3 suberbowls with Brady, you need to scratch 1 off because i dont count the first 1 because that BS call that they shouldnt even have gotten there. You also dont look at the fact that MR. Brady has had D signals, you dont think that helped? And dont say that it doesnt because it wouldnt be a rule if it wasnt, they cheated for a reason..to get an edge, or one up on the oposing D.

godolphins1985
07-09-2008, 09:15 AM
Thanks for the heads up. If I get Lynched I get Lynched I dont care. Im a Biased Dolphin fan and if another finfan wants to stick for that Pretty little turd then they have every right. Tom Brady is OVERRATED! He is a great quaterback...I used the word great because he is, but he is not Legendary. Who knows what type of advantages he recieved due to the Pats cheating, normally you get caught doing about 10-20% of what you have actually done. Plus, playing in an offense that throws the ball 65% of the time played a large role in his numbers. OVERRATED

i agree, who cant throw 50 plus TD when you throw 70 percent and have an offensive line that holds long enough for you to read a chapter in a book.

nyjunc
07-09-2008, 01:12 PM
First off like i said in one of my posts is that Bledsoe is no brady, bledsoe being there and having no success is directly tied to the patriots losing record. You are correct in saying that Brady stepped in and magically they go on to the superbowl. It is no mystery, its just he is a product of the system he was produced for. But just because Tom did it doesnt mean another managable QB couldnt have brought them to the superbowl as well.
You also speak of there record before brady got there ( you said few years), well belicheat also wasnt there and has nothing to do with that regime. One has nothing to do with the other.
I wouldnt say that Manning is a big time choker because he has pulled off a lot of 4th quarter comebacks, so can you explain what choking has to do with him having a LONGGGGGG way to go to catch brady , how?


I love the "product of the system" excuse. Brady would be successful in any system, he's an all-time great NFL QB and he's done so much of his career w/o great offensive talent around him.

You can blame it all on Bledsoe but NE had JUST re-signed Bledsoe to a long term contract so how was a 6th rd pick from the year before "a product of the system he was PRODUCED FOR"? Their plans were for Brady to be a backup long term until Brady was so good they didn't have a choice but to play him. W/ o w/o Mo lewis' hit Brady was going to play very soon.

Belichick was there in 2000 and went 5-11, he was 0-2 w/o Brady in 2001.

Belichick pre-Brady: 41-57, 1 playoff appearance, 5 of 6 losing seasons, 0-1 in playoffs.
Belichick w/ Brady: 86-24, 6 div titles, 6 playoff appearances, 3 SBs, 4 Conf titles, 14-3 in playoffs.

As far as Manning goes, I don't care aboput regular season games. That's not where the pressure is, it's in January and he has been a mediocre QB in January unlike Tom Brady and that's why he has only 1 SB and Brady has 3 SB wins and 4 SB appearances.


Thanks for the heads up. If I get Lynched I get Lynched I dont care. Im a Biased Dolphin fan and if another finfan wants to stick for that Pretty little turd then they have every right. Tom Brady is OVERRATED! He is a great quaterback...I used the word great because he is, but he is not Legendary. Who knows what type of advantages he recieved due to the Pats cheating, normally you get caught doing about 10-20% of what you have actually done. Plus, playing in an offense that throws the ball 65% of the time played a large role in his numbers. OVERRATED

So I take it Marino is overrated then? Since 2001 NE has thrown the ball 54% of the time and run it 46% of the time. Miami from '83-'99(I took out '93 since he barely played) threw the ball 58% of the time and ran it 42%.

godolphins1985
07-09-2008, 02:20 PM
I love the "product of the system" excuse. Brady would be successful in any system, he's an all-time great NFL QB and he's done so much of his career w/o great offensive talent around him.

You can blame it all on Bledsoe but NE had JUST re-signed Bledsoe to a long term contract so how was a 6th rd pick from the year before "a product of the system he was PRODUCED FOR"? Their plans were for Brady to be a backup long term until Brady was so good they didn't have a choice but to play him. W/ o w/o Mo lewis' hit Brady was going to play very soon.

Belichick was there in 2000 and went 5-11, he was 0-2 w/o Brady in 2001.

Belichick pre-Brady: 41-57, 1 playoff appearance, 5 of 6 losing seasons, 0-1 in playoffs.
Belichick w/ Brady: 86-24, 6 div titles, 6 playoff appearances, 3 SBs, 4 Conf titles, 14-3 in playoffs.

As far as Manning goes, I don't care aboput regular season games. That's not where the pressure is, it's in January and he has been a mediocre QB in January unlike Tom Brady and that's why he has only 1 SB and Brady has 3 SB wins and 4 SB appearances.



So I take it Marino is overrated then? Since 2001 NE has thrown the ball 54% of the time and run it 46% of the time. Miami from '83-'99(I took out '93 since he barely played) threw the ball 58% of the time and ran it 42%.

i believe kirstyally was refering to ONLY this last season.

as for me all i can say is that Bledsoe was inherited by Belecheat, not by choice. Was Brady ready in 2000?? NOOOOOOOOO....was brady ready in 2001??NOOOOOOOOOO....Brady came in because he had 2, and had more success earlier. You dont think its by chance that he was drafted by belecheat and thrown in because they had no other option. Belecheat knew wat he had in Brady because he molded a skinny smart kid outta college into what he wanted. And you say brady can come into any system and be successful? How but a system that is more run and gun, you think he can still be successful?? when did brady become mike vick/vince young. Coaches usually arm an arsenal of plays and players around the QB that highlights there strenghts and strenghtens his weaknesses, thats what creating a system is all about. What a system it would be for vince young to be playing in another teams system where its throw first and your main priority is to stay in the pocket and throw the football. On the flip someone like vince young could play in a system like Philly (very similar). By stating that he could fit every system makes me feel like you think that if i said no one in the world could lift a tank and you respond .."TOM CAN DO IT, HE CAN DO ANYTHING!" Its just silly the guy cant do it all no matter how much you would like him to.

ih8brady
07-10-2008, 12:39 AM
Is Brady great? Yes. Best ever? No. He never passed the threshold of 30 TDs before he landed the greatest WR in the history of the game for a mere fourth rounder.

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 07:03 AM
Is Brady great? Yes. Best ever? No. He never passed the threshold of 30 TDs before he landed the greatest WR in the history of the game for a mere fourth rounder.

So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB w/ Ricky Patton, Earl Cooper and Johnny Davis as yous starting RBs and Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark as your WRs which sounds alot like leading a team to a SB while having Antowain Smith, Kevin Faulk and JR redmond as your RBs w/ Troy Brown & David Patten as your WRs. Oh, both Montana and Brady won w/ that talent around them in their FIRST full year of starting. To me that's more impressive than putting up fantasy #s like a Daunte Culpepper, Warren Moon or Steve Young.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 08:34 AM
So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB w/ Ricky Patton, Earl Cooper and Johnny Davis as yous starting RBs and Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark as your WRs which sounds alot like leading a team to a SB while having Antowain Smith, Kevin Faulk and JR redmond as your RBs w/ Troy Brown & David Patten as your WRs. Oh, both Montana and Brady won w/ that talent around them in their FIRST full year of starting. To me that's more impressive than putting up fantasy #s like a Daunte Culpepper, Warren Moon or Steve Young.
So are you all outta Brady juice? no more trying to rip threw my comments or do you just have no come back from my last post?:wink:

FinFrenzy
07-10-2008, 09:21 AM
IMHO Brady is a great QB, best ever absolutly NO! The best QB in the NFL right now is Peyton Manning I believe with Brady second.

Brady would not have the success he has now if he was playing in the late 80's early 90's, with the rules and having two teams in the same division Bills and Dolphins (Kelly and Marino) slinging it out all the time which takes time off the board.

New rules some made for him a.k.a. the tuck rule, no real constant competition in our division. I'm not even going to get into the asterisk.

Brady will make the list of best all time QB but there are many of them..true franchise QB's that help their team win. Unitas, Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre, Kelly, Griese, Namath, etc. etc. The only difference is that many on that list played against each other in their prime, which was electrifying to watch.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 09:28 AM
So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB

So if your a QB and youve taken a team to the superbowl that puts you above other QB's just by default. For 1 a QB doesnt take the team to the SB, a TEAM does that together. And 2, if what you say is correct then we need to talk about Big Ben cause he WON a superbowl! He is now an immortal for doing so, he belongs up there with montana, and the rest of the bunch cause of that SB victory:rolleyes2:.

SB means something but not everything. There is too much involved with gauging a QB and it cant be discounted. Tom Brady is surrounded by a great line YES. Tom Brady had mediocre WR for multi years and did very well, YES. Tom Brady when given a stud produced well, Yes. Tom Brady knew D signals and resulted in a unfair advantage , YES. Tom Brady over threw or threw up fly balls to moss a lot YES. Most of the TD thrown by Brady was more moss skill than his YES.

You need to realize that with a great Oline and knowing what the other team is gonna do is a tremendous advantage. Anyone can do great with "Intangables" like that hahahaha.

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 09:54 AM
So are you all outta Brady juice? no more trying to rip threw my comments or do you just have no come back from my last post?:wink:

Do you really want me to? Remember that you asked.


as for me all i can say is that Bledsoe was inherited by Belecheat, not by choice.

He did inherit him but why after the 2000 season did the Pats sign Drew Bledsoe to a record contract in March of 2001 if they knew Brady was ready to step in?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/03/07/sports/main276973.shtml


was brady ready in 2001??NOOOOOOOOOO....Brady came in because he had 2, and had more success earlier.

obviously he was ready in 2001 as he led them to a SB but b/c they gave Drew the long term deal months earlier Brady wasn't in the plans to be a starter. he wowed them in camp and he was forced into the lineup a little earlier than they would have wanted but Belichick's job was in jeopardy and Brady was going to be starting soon whether Drew got hurt or not.


Belecheat knew wat he had in Brady because he molded a skinny smart kid outta college into what he wanted.

Yep, that's why in March of '01 they gave Bledsoe a record deal, the Pats obviously loved to give away free money and weren't worried at all about the cap:lol:


And you say brady can come into any system and be successful? How but a system that is more run and gun, you think he can still be successful?? when did brady become mike vick/vince young.

OK, you got me. He's not a Young/Vick type but those aren't classic QB systems, those guys makwe things up on the fly. You think thoe plays are drawn up by the coaches?


Coaches usually arm an arsenal of plays and players around the QB that highlights there strenghts and strenghtens his weaknesses, thats what creating a system is all about.

So the Pats drafted a QB in the 6th rd then gave their current QB a long term, record deal all w/ the idea to build a system around the 6th rd QB? :lol:


IMHO Brady is a great QB, best ever absolutly NO! The best QB in the NFL right now is Peyton Manning I believe with Brady second.


Brady is far and away better than Manning and has been for most of his career. if we are talking fantasy #s then yes peyton is better(although Brady passed him in that area as well last year) but Brady is the better QB b/c he always makes plays to win and he's not intimidated by playing in January- he thrives on it. It's why the coaches who were polled recently overwhelming chose Brady over manning to build a team around.

Of 29 HC's who responded 22 of them chose Brady and 6 Manning. Why is that?

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks/0-8-58/NFL-coaches-prefer-Brady-over-Manning.html


Brady would not have the success he has now if he was playing in the late 80's early 90's, with the rules and having two teams in the same division Bills and Dolphins (Kelly and Marino) slinging it out all the time which takes time off the board.


He'd have as much success as he's having now b/c he's better than kelly and may end up being better than Marino and his Pats teams are better than the Dolphins and Bills of the 80s and 90s. Brady can win playing any style, whether it's a slug it out low scoring game or a high scoring shootout.


New rules some made for him a.k.a. the tuck rule, no real constant competition in our division. I'm not even going to get into the asterisk.

What constant competition was there 154-20 years ago? The Bills were good every year bu the Jets, Colts and Pats stuink regularly and Miami was ok. It's just like now except Miami and Buf have stunk and the Jets have been ok makming the postseason every other year.


Brady will make the list of best all time QB but there are many of them..true franchise QB's that help their team win. Unitas, Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre, Kelly, Griese, Namath, etc. etc. The only difference is that many on that list played against each other in their prime, which was electrifying to watch.


Of couirse there are many great QBs but only a handful I think belong in the best ever discussion- Marino, Montana, Graham, Unitas and now Brady.


So if your a QB and youve taken a team to the superbowl that puts you above other QB's just by default. For 1 a QB doesnt take the team to the SB, a TEAM does that together. And 2, if what you say is correct then we need to talk about Big Ben cause he WON a superbowl! He is now an immortal for doing so, he belongs up there with montana, and the rest of the bunch cause of that SB victory

Who said it puts you up there by default? it doesn't but it can seperate great players. When you see guys like Montaan and Brady play so well in postseason vs. say a Steve Young or Peyton Manning who are/were choke artists you can easily put Montana and Brady ahead of them. It's not Championships, it's elevating a team. Marino never won a SB but he elevated mediocre teams to heights they wouldn't have reached w/o him which is why I put him near the top. A guy like Young inherited a dynasty and only won one SB and that was thanks to Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones parting ways.

It's like in baseball w/ ARod vs. Nomar vs. Jeter. Arod & nomar put up the better fantasy #s but I'll take Jeter over them any day b/c he shows up when it matters. I play fantasy football but I do not judge players based on fantasy stats.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 10:07 AM
obviously he was ready in 2001 as he led them to a SB but b/c they gave Drew the long term deal months earlier Brady wasn't in the plans to be a starter. he wowed them in camp and he was forced into the lineup a little earlier than they would have wanted but Belichick's job was in jeopardy and Brady was going to be starting soon whether Drew got hurt or not.



He might have brought them to a superbowl in 01 but clearly wasnt ready, his numbers increased with every year. He was atleast another year or so until cheat was ready to unleash him.



Yep, that's why in March of '01 they gave Bledsoe a record deal, the Pats obviously loved to give away free money and weren't worried at all about the cap:lol:



OK, you got me. He's not a Young/Vick type but those aren't classic QB systems, those guys makwe things up on the fly. You think thoe plays are drawn up by the coaches?




So the Pats drafted a QB in the 6th rd then gave their current QB a long term, record deal all w/ the idea to build a system around the 6th rd QB? :lol:


.
First of all that was the longest post in the history of posts lol.

Well im sure just like any Coach they dont wanna go ahead and just put all his money on a QB that hasnt taken a single snap in his life in the nfl and just shove a proven vet aside. He needed some type of insurance, what would have happened if they didnt resign him and then Brady stunk, what then?

They arnt drawn up to run around like an idiot a lot but they are given more freedom to roam unlike some other QB's, other qbs's main priority after not seeing there 2 primary's might have to check down to the RB.


I was talking sorta in general, i think a system was in place for a Brady like player not him persay but like him. In 01 regardless of talent on offense it was short yardage plays and dump offs to the RB. Bledsoe isnt that kind of player, hes more like a missle silo, waits waits waits then unleashes the long ball (a lot). He just doesnt fit the system, poor Bledsoe grew up in the wrong era. He missed that boat when marino elway was playing. Poor drew lol.

so take that JETS PUNK hahaha JK.

ih8brady
07-10-2008, 10:26 AM
So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB w/ Ricky Patton, Earl Cooper and Johnny Davis as yous starting RBs and Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark as your WRs which sounds alot like leading a team to a SB while having Antowain Smith, Kevin Faulk and JR redmond as your RBs w/ Troy Brown & David Patten as your WRs. Oh, both Montana and Brady won w/ that talent around them in their FIRST full year of starting. To me that's more impressive than putting up fantasy #s like a Daunte Culpepper, Warren Moon or Steve Young.


Did I say Brady wasn't great? NO. I said he was great in my first two sentences. Nice strawman.

My point was that his first great season as a passer wasn't until last year. Was Pre-2007 Brady ever proclaimed the undisputed best QB ever? No. The reason why this thread exists is because of one season; last season.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 10:36 AM
Did I say Brady wasn't great? NO. I said he was great in my first two sentences. Nice strawman.

My point was that his first great season as a passer wasn't until last year. Was Pre-2007 Brady ever proclaimed the undisputed best QB ever? No. The reason why this thread exists is because of one season; last season.

Ya you gotta give the man credit, But not that much CREDIT. Anyone who watched those games last season watched those long bombs to moss watched moss's skills more than Brady's.

FinFrenzy
07-10-2008, 11:32 AM
IMHO Brady is a great QB, best ever absolutly NO! The best QB in the NFL right now is Peyton Manning I believe with Brady second.



Brady is far and away better than Manning and has been for most of his career. if we are talking fantasy #s then yes peyton is better(although Brady passed him in that area as well last year) but Brady is the better QB b/c he always makes plays to win and he's not intimidated by playing in January- he thrives on it. It's why the coaches who were polled recently overwhelming chose Brady over manning to build a team around.

Of 29 HC's who responded 22 of them chose Brady and 6 Manning. Why is that?

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks...r-Manning.html

Sure and 1 of those coaches chose Jason Taylor. Coaches get fired, hired etc. it all comes down to the right players in the right scheme at the right time. Some coaches also preferred Leaf over Manning all coaches passed on Brady till the 6th round. A lot of coaches get fired for bringing in great players in FA with enormous contracts that play average in their scheme.

Fantasy #ís ??? In the next two years if Tom Brady can throw:
109 TDís
15,256 more yards
The good news is with those numbers above he only has to raise his completion percent by 1.2%

If he can do that he would only of tied Peyton Manning as of today.;)



Brady would not have the success he has now if he was playing in the late 80's early 90's, with the rules and having two teams in the same division Bills and Dolphins (Kelly and Marino) slinging it out all the time which takes time off the board.



He'd have as much success as he's having now b/c he's better than kelly and may end up being better than Marino and his Pats teams are better than the Dolphins and Bills of the 80s and 90s.
How can you honestly come to that conclusion, with rule changes, game management differences, coaching differences (Shula & Levy), etc. etc. Thereís more to a team then just a QB you have to factor in all of the intangibles.



Brady can win playing any style, whether it's a slug it out low scoring game or a high scoring shootout.

He proved that in the Superbowl, right??? :rolleyes:



New rules some made for him a.k.a. the tuck rule, no real constant competition in our division. I'm not even going to get into the asterisk.




What constant competition was there 154-20 years ago? The Bills were good every year bu the Jets, Colts and Pats stuink regularly and Miami was ok. It's just like now except Miami and Buf have stunk and the Jets have been ok makming the postseason every other year.

Are you honestly comparing the Bills-Dolphins 80-90ís to the Jets-Pats 02-06. When were the Jets strong enough to knock the Pats out of the playoffs???? It would be a safer assumption if the Colts were still in our division as of now playing each other twice a year and in the playoffs. That competition would be in the same realm of reality.

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 11:41 AM
Did I say Brady wasn't great? NO. I said he was great in my first two sentences. Nice strawman.

My point was that his first great season as a passer wasn't until last year. Was Pre-2007 Brady ever proclaimed the undisputed best QB ever? No. The reason why this thread exists is because of one season; last season.

Was he procalined the best ever before this past season? NO, but he wasn't proclaimed the best ever after last season. Both before and after last season he was gaining steam in the discussion for best ever which is a discussion he clearly belongs in.


Sure and 1 of those coaches chose Jason Taylor.

Like we don't know that was Sparano gtrying to drum up interest in Taylor. No coach/exec in their right mind would build around Jason Taylor before Brady or manning. The dolphins built a D around him and Zach and were never great.


Fantasy #ís ??? In the next two years if Tom Brady can throw:
109 TDís
15,256 more yards
The good news is with those numbers above he only has to raise his completion percent by 1.2%

If he can do that he would only of tied Peyton Manning as of today

and waht does that mean? Brady will still be winning and Manning will still be choking in January. Let's also not forget that Manning plays most of his games in Domes while Brady has weather issues to deal w/ playing most of his games in the Northeast. That affects #s yet Brady keeps on winning.




How can you honestly come to that conclusion, with rule changes, game management differences, coaching differences (Shula & Levy), etc. etc. Thereís more to a team then just a QB you have to factor in all of the intangibles.


It's not like going from the 70s to the 90s, the 90s to this decade there isn't that big of a difference.


He proved that in the Superbowl, right???

Is he expected to win every game? He did lead his team down the field in the final minutes to take the lead in that Super Bowl. He won a shootout against Carolina and a low scoring SB against the Rams. You guys are so bitter towards the man, I hate him too but just admit how great he is so you can stop looking so silly w/ this bitterness.


Are you honestly comparing the Bills-Dolphins 80-90ís to the Jets-Pats 02-06. When were the Jets strong enough to knock the Pats out of the playoffs???? It would be a safer assumption if the Colts were still in our division as of now playing each other twice a year and in the playoffs. That competition would be in the same realm of reality.


When were the dolphins strong enough to knock the Bills out of the playoffs? Every time they played Buf humiliated them and instead of 3 consistently bad teams in the division like we had back then there are only 2 this decade.

FinFrenzy
07-10-2008, 11:55 AM
Like we don't know that was Sparano gtrying to drum up interest in Taylor. No coach/exec in their right mind would build around Jason Taylor before Brady or manning. The dolphins built a D around him and Zach and were never great.

Are you also going to add the 6 coaches that didn't vote were Sparano's undoing by voting for JT....:sidelol:



and waht does that mean? Brady will still be winning and Manning will still be choking in January. Let's also not forget that Manning plays most of his games in Domes while Brady has weather issues to deal w/ playing most of his games in the Northeast. That affects #s yet Brady keeps on winning.

You brought up fantasy #'s, your getting way ahead of yourself here Brady has only thrown for over 20k yards....let's see what happens this year when we hope everything is on the up and up.




It's not like going from the 70s to the 90s, the 90s to this decade there isn't that big of a difference..

Ummm.....:foundout: that makes no sense....your saying, players, coaching etc.. have nothing to do about the difference in teams and the way the game is played. :unsure:



Is he expected to win every game? He did lead his team down the field in the final minutes to take the lead in that Super Bowl. He won a shootout against Carolina and a low scoring SB against the Rams. You guys are so bitter towards the man, I hate him too but just admit how great he is so you can stop looking so silly w/ this bitterness..

Silly?? see the above post...I think your blinded by this topic....if you look at my very first reply to this topic when did I say he's not a great QB?? In fact I did state exactly that. I'm just not going to make him greater than he is.



When were the dolphins strong enough to knock the Bills out of the playoffs? Every time they played Buf humiliated them and instead of 3 consistently bad teams in the division like we had back then there are only 2 this decade.

I thought you were trying to compare the Jets-Pats rivalry what happened here?? :err:

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 11:57 AM
It's not even worth responding, just read what you wrote to me. It makes no sense.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 12:03 PM
Is he expected to win every game? He did lead his team down the field in the final minutes to take the lead in that Super Bowl. He won a shootout against Carolina and a low scoring SB against the Rams. You guys are so bitter towards the man, I hate him too but just admit how great he is so you can stop looking so silly w/ this bitterness.



He doesnt win or lose any game, its a team effort, he helps them win games. Its very slim that i saw tom brady ever put a team on his shoulders to get them that huge victory.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 12:06 PM
It's not even worth responding, just read what you wrote to me. It makes no sense.

what doesnt makes sense?

FinFrenzy
07-10-2008, 12:09 PM
what doesnt makes sense?

I don't know, I think he was talking to me, though :boohoo:

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 12:10 PM
I don't know, I think he was talking to me, though :boohoo:

i know he was. i wasnt talkin about your post:wink:

TomBradyWoot
07-10-2008, 12:11 PM
He doesnt win or lose any game, its a team effort, he helps them win games. Its very slim that i saw tom brady ever put a team on his shoulders to get them that huge victory.


Really?? Did you miss Super Bowl 38?? Or the 2005 AFC Title game?

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 12:13 PM
Really?? Did you miss Super Bowl 38?? Or the 2005 AFC Title game?

He doesnt win or lose any game, its a team effort, he helps them win games. Its very slim that i saw tom brady ever put a team on his shoulders to get them that huge victory.

2 games not slim enough??

FinFrenzy
07-10-2008, 12:19 PM
i know he was. i wasnt talkin about your post:wink:

I figured that....:up:

BobDole
07-10-2008, 12:34 PM
It's not even worth responding, just read what you wrote to me. It makes no sense.


you make good points, as does everyone else, but there is no changing opinion on this topic. we have seen brady be exposed against pass rushing defenses. we are aware that he had an advantage by his team stealing signals - and who knows how far that went. he is a great QB and i would love to have him on this team (i hate me), but there is no way he is the best ever.

the greatest QB ever wouldn't self destruct when pressure is applied. the greatest QB ever wouldn't need to steal signals (like a little b1tch, might i add) to be the best. there is no argument there.

just say he's great and leave it at that. and from a jets fan? for shame. :(

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 12:57 PM
He doesnt win or lose any game, its a team effort, he helps them win games. Its very slim that i saw tom brady ever put a team on his shoulders to get them that huge victory.

Your hatred of the guy gets in the way of rational thinking. he has been the difference maker in that team, w/o him there is not a dynasty this decade. he's the reason they kept winning no matter how many critical injuries they had or no matter the lack of offensive talent around him. He's an all-time great, I despise the Pats and I hate Brady but I appreciate what the man has done and continues to do just like I hated marino and appreciated his greatness. The problem is Miami fans take it as a slap in the face to marino if they give Brady credit but you have to put that aside and realize how great this guy has been.

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 12:59 PM
you make good points, as does everyone else, but there is no changing opinion on this topic. we have seen brady be exposed against pass rushing defenses. we are aware that he had an advantage by his team stealing signals - and who knows how far that went. he is a great QB and i would love to have him on this team (i hate me), but there is no way he is the best ever.

the greatest QB ever wouldn't self destruct when pressure is applied. the greatest QB ever wouldn't need to steal signals (like a little b1tch, might i add) to be the best. there is no argument there.

just say he's great and leave it at that. and from a jets fan? for shame. :(

Name me the QB who isn't affected by a big time pass rush? That's the gamepan to rattle any QB and he didn't self destruct he led his team on a potential Game winning drive but the D couldn't hold down the opponent.

I never said he was the best just that he belongs in the discussion.

I'd like to know more about the signal styaling but he did have his best #s year whenb they weren't doing it so how much did it really help? and your former coach has admitted he did it so i'm sure more than a few teams were doing it. I'm sure it helped b/c why else would they have continued doing it BUT I don't know how much. The only way I can knock Brady out of the discussion is if we can ever find out just how much help he got from spygate.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 01:06 PM
Heres the thing, most of us who HATE!!!!!! Tom Brady is sayin he is great but not the best. There has to be compromise in everything in life, we compromise in saying hes very very good, but arnt gonna just dubb him the best ever with so many things that accounted for his "SUCCESS". Cheating is a biggy.

Jets fan you also says that without Brady there would be no dynasty and all i say to that is without Adam V there would be no superbowl wins for the pats to hang there hat on =)

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 01:11 PM
Heres the thing, most of us who HATE!!!!!! Tom Brady is sayin he is great but not the best. There has to be compromise in everything in life, we compromise in saying hes very very good, but arnt gonna just dubb him the best ever with so many things that accounted for his "SUCCESS". Cheating is a biggy.

Jets fan you also says that without Brady there would be no dynasty and all i say to that is without Adam V there would be no superbowl wins for the pats to hang there hat on =)

Please show me where I called Brady the best? I have said over and over he belongs in the discussion, I have never called him the best.

Vinatieri was very valuable as well obviously but w/o the QB getting the team in position to kick those FGs the FG Kicker is useless.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 01:18 PM
Please show me where I called Brady the best? I have said over and over he belongs in the discussion, I have never called him the best.

Vinatieri was very valuable as well obviously but w/o the QB getting the team in position to kick those FGs the FG Kicker is useless.

You mean how the tuck that tom did against the Raiders put them in position hahaha.

i was talkin for myself when i said the best. Its so far off to start throwing him in discussion , hes not even close to retirement yet. ..... Of course the QB gets them in position, it also shows that they struggled in that drive and the Kicker got squeezed them out some points. lol...everything you say is because of tom brady ...whats next ..with out the QB taking a dump in the morning the janitors wouldnt have a job! lol

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 01:23 PM
You mean how the tuck that tom did against the Raiders put them in position hahaha.

i was talkin for myself when i said the best. Its so far off to start throwing him in discussion , hes not even close to retirement yet. ..... Of course the QB gets them in position, it also shows that they struggled in that drive and the Kicker got squeezed them out some points. lol...everything you say is because of tom brady ...whats next ..with out the QB taking a dump in the morning the janitors wouldnt have a job! lol


Great players and teams take advantage of breaks. He still had to get Vinatieri closer to kick the game tying FG and the had to drive NE into FG range in OT to win it. Oakland still had numerous chances to win that game. Just like in '82 when Mark Gastineau recovered a Miami fumble but they ruled the RB down incorrectly. That play happeend around midfield in a 0-0 game, the Jets didn't have to allow Miami to score a TD on that drive but they did and they lost the game. Good teams take advantages of breaks.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 01:30 PM
Great players and teams take advantage of breaks. He still had to get Vinatieri closer to kick the game tying FG and the had to drive NE into FG range in OT to win it. Oakland still had numerous chances to win that game. Just like in '82 when Mark Gastineau recovered a Miami fumble but they ruled the RB down incorrectly. That play happeend around midfield in a 0-0 game, the Jets didn't have to allow Miami to score a TD on that drive but they did and they lost the game. Good teams take advantages of breaks.


Of course he got him closer just like any QB does, its not unordinary or legendary of him.

Yes Oakland had numerous chances but that tuck BS resulted in Pats taking the lead. Its not like the raiders wernt winning already.

PS Tom Brady had D signals and was CHEATINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 01:34 PM
Of course he got him closer just like any QB does, its not unordinary or legendary of him.

Yes Oakland had numerous chances but that tuck BS resulted in Pats taking the lead. Its not like the raiders wernt winning already.

PS Tom Brady had D signals and was CHEATINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.


It's not unordinary or legendary? Come on. What he did in the snow in that game and the drive to win the Super Bowl are absolutely legendary. What is your criteria for legendary? If that's not it then i guess Marino doesn't have any legendary moments b/c he doesn't have any moments like that in January.

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 01:37 PM
It's not unordinary or legendary? Come on. What he did in the snow in that game and the drive to win the Super Bowl are absolutely legendary. What is your criteria for legendary? If that's not it then i guess Marino doesn't have any legendary moments b/c he doesn't have any moments like that in January.

Dont dig to much into what im saying, i said that moving the football to get a kicker into position isnt legendary and that it is ordinary for ANY qb to do so.


Also he cheated:wink:

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 01:43 PM
Dont dig to much into what im saying, i said that moving the football to get a kicker into position isnt legendary and that it is ordinary for ANY qb to do so.


Also he cheated:wink:

If you say it's ordinary it must be, I guess it's ordinary to win 3 SBs, 2 of which by setting up the K for a FG. But if it's so ordinary how come Marino couldn't win one? how come Favre could only win one? how come Jim Kelly couldn't win one? How come It took Elway 4 tries to win one?

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 01:49 PM
If you say it's ordinary it must be, I guess it's ordinary to win 3 SBs, 2 of which by setting up the K for a FG. But if it's so ordinary how come Marino couldn't win one? how come Favre could only win one? how come Jim Kelly couldn't win one? How come It took Elway 4 tries to win one?

omg lol its ORDINARY TO SET UP ANY KICKER FOR A FIELD GOAL. lol. Cleo lemon is legendary for setting up a kicker . YAY!!!!!!!!!! I dont get what you dont understand about that statment.

Its easy to win a superbowl when you have the other teams D signals...lol....dont wanna comment on that one?

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 02:19 PM
omg lol its ORDINARY TO SET UP ANY KICKER FOR A FIELD GOAL. lol. Cleo lemon is legendary for setting up a kicker . YAY!!!!!!!!!! I dont get what you dont understand about that statment.

Its easy to win a superbowl when you have the other teams D signals...lol....dont wanna comment on that one?

Did Cleo lemon do it the SB w/ the game on the line? Did Cle Lemon do it in a divisional playoff in a driving snowstorm?

If it's easy when you steal signals then why didn't Marino win one from '96-'99? Jimmy Johnson admitted doing the same thing so why wasn't Dan able to win one?

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 02:30 PM
Did Cleo lemon do it the SB w/ the game on the line? Did Cle Lemon do it in a divisional playoff in a driving snowstorm?

If it's easy when you steal signals then why didn't Marino win one from '96-'99? Jimmy Johnson admitted doing the same thing so why wasn't Dan able to win one?
when did jj say he was doing the same thing? got a source link etc.

So it takes a lot to choke on 3 different superbowls 3 times so your kicker can step in and do what you couldnt. Maybe if the patriots had Adam V this past superbowl they would have won.

nyjunc
07-10-2008, 02:34 PM
when did jj say he was doing the same thing? got a source link etc.

So it takes a lot to choke on 3 different superbowls 3 times so your kicker can step in and do what you couldnt. Maybe if the patriots had Adam V this past superbowl they would have won.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/index.php/2008/02/23/jimmy-johnson-thinks-spygate-is-overblown/


As for the 2nd point, Maybe b/c obviously the Kicker would have prevented the Giants from scoring that TD to win the game:rolleyes2:

godolphins1985
07-10-2008, 02:39 PM
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/index.php/2008/02/23/jimmy-johnson-thinks-spygate-is-overblown/


As for the 2nd point, Maybe b/c obviously the Kicker would have prevented the Giants from scoring that TD to win the game:rolleyes2:


Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?
JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.

they used it for the next game they would play them. Pats used it for ingame adjustments. That is cheating to the extreme man, not every team did what the pats were doing.

FOR YOUR second point, it wouldnt have prevented the TD but as the game went the pats declined to go for a FG and went for it instead and got zero. If they went for it and they got it even if the Giants scored the TD the pats would have been tied up with the giants.

BobDole
07-10-2008, 03:47 PM
Name me the QB who isn't affected by a big time pass rush? That's the gamepan to rattle any QB and he didn't self destruct he led his team on a potential Game winning drive but the D couldn't hold down the opponent.

I never said he was the best just that he belongs in the discussion.

I'd like to know more about the signal styaling but he did have his best #s year whenb they weren't doing it so how much did it really help? and your former coach has admitted he did it so i'm sure more than a few teams were doing it. I'm sure it helped b/c why else would they have continued doing it BUT I don't know how much. The only way I can knock Brady out of the discussion is if we can ever find out just how much help he got from spygate.


big ben doesn't get rattled from pressure. he has great composure. sits in the pocket like noone is even coming. brady doesn't do that. he gets noticeably flustered and mad. is ben even a great QB? no. so shouldn't tom have better awareness in a crumbling pocket than someone who isn't even great? he sure should.

but i thought you were saying he was the best ever. if you are just saying that he belongs in the conversation then you are absolutely right. he does belong. it's hard to say whether or not the patriots owe their success to tom or if tom owes his success to the patsies. but that team has been unfairly good since he's been at the wheel. they have dominated great teams. with decent receivers around him, he did unbelievable things last year. he is amazing and belongs in the conversation - but he ain't the best. so as long as you don't think he is the best ever than we totally agree.

and i hate him. bad. it is hard for me to be objective with the patsies, but that fugger is great. just wish we would blitz his pompous *** every time he played the fins.

as far as all time goes - i would say top 10 as of right now. the rest of his career and how spy gate pans out will determine where he ends up.

do you have any idea how hard it is for me to give props to this guy? ugh.

fatkirstyalley
07-10-2008, 04:31 PM
I love the "product of the system" excuse. Brady would be successful in any system, he's an all-time great NFL QB and he's done so much of his career w/o great offensive talent around him.

You can blame it all on Bledsoe but NE had JUST re-signed Bledsoe to a long term contract so how was a 6th rd pick from the year before "a product of the system he was PRODUCED FOR"? Their plans were for Brady to be a backup long term until Brady was so good they didn't have a choice but to play him. W/ o w/o Mo lewis' hit Brady was going to play very soon.

Belichick was there in 2000 and went 5-11, he was 0-2 w/o Brady in 2001.

Belichick pre-Brady: 41-57, 1 playoff appearance, 5 of 6 losing seasons, 0-1 in playoffs.
Belichick w/ Brady: 86-24, 6 div titles, 6 playoff appearances, 3 SBs, 4 Conf titles, 14-3 in playoffs.

As far as Manning goes, I don't care aboput regular season games. That's not where the pressure is, it's in January and he has been a mediocre QB in January unlike Tom Brady and that's why he has only 1 SB and Brady has 3 SB wins and 4 SB appearances.



So I take it Marino is overrated then? Since 2001 NE has thrown the ball 54% of the time and run it 46% of the time. Miami from '83-'99(I took out '93 since he barely played) threw the ball 58% of the time and ran it 42%.
Quit throwin stats at me like a monkey chucking poop at a zoo, I dont care about stats. I go by what i see on the field. Since 2001 Brady has .....blah blah blah. I said earlier in the topic that I AM BIASED, and there is nothing anyone can say to me that is going to make me change my mind. "I'm going to prove my point by telling you how many 3rd and 3's the dolphins didnt convert in 1974 by throwing the ball 58.662417% of the time while the the tight end was flexing approximately 78.4521785412457854% of the time. I dont give a **** about stats. Brady is OVERRATED.

nyjunc
07-11-2008, 08:32 AM
FOR YOUR second point, it wouldnt have prevented the TD but as the game went the pats declined to go for a FG and went for it instead and got zero. If they went for it and they got it even if the Giants scored the TD the pats would have been tied up with the giants.

That had nothig to do w/ not having Vinatieri. It was an asinine decision by Belichick. Gostowski is 9 for 10 in his postseason career kicking FGs.



big ben doesn't get rattled from pressure. he has great composure. sits in the pocket like noone is even coming. brady doesn't do that. he gets noticeably flustered and mad. is ben even a great QB? no. so shouldn't tom have better awareness in a crumbling pocket than someone who isn't even great? he sure should.



You couldn't have more pressure on a QB than the Giants had on Brady and he STILL led NE to the TD that should have won the SB in the final minutes. EVERY QB is affected by pressure, Brady still performed.

Please me know the games Ben was pressured in and didn't get rattled? He wasn't pressured against NYJ or NE in the '04 playoffs, in the '05 playoffs he was sacked just 6 times in 4 games. Last year was the first playoff game he was pressured in as Jax sacked him 6 times and he threw 3 INTs so obviously pressured affected him.


as far as all time goes - i would say top 10 as of right now. the rest of his career and how spy gate pans out will determine where he ends up.



He's closer to top 5 than top 10 but we'll see how the rest of his career goes.


do you have any idea how hard it is for me to give props to this guy? ugh.


YES! It's the same for me, actually it's worse b/c I also have to do it w/ Marino as well.

godolphins1985
07-11-2008, 10:04 AM
"That had nothig to do w/ not having Vinatieri. It was an asinine decision by Belichick. Gostowski is 9 for 10 in his postseason career kicking FGs."


I doubt Bill would let Adam not kick that FG, he knew the guy is an almost sure thing when it comes to clutch kicking(SB record shows it). You wanna let some Gostowski kid with no superbowl exp? Gostowski isnt great by any stretch of the imagination, let history hang on some shmuck?

either way the game still would have been tied if Adam was there and kicked that field goal. which prob would have won them the game in the end, cause come on now lets be real about this the giants yes did pressure Brady but in the end it came down to a BS/amazing catch from Eli.

nyjunc
07-11-2008, 11:10 AM
Gostokowski had hit a 50 yarder on torn up grass at SD the year earlier in the postseason. He was 9 of 10 in postseason, you have to trust your kicker. if it was 4th and 2 or 3 then think about going but it was 4th and 13. It was an asinine decision, they should have kicked the FG.

godolphins1985
07-11-2008, 11:18 AM
Gostokowski had hit a 50 yarder on torn up grass at SD the year earlier in the postseason. He was 9 of 10 in postseason, you have to trust your kicker. if it was 4th and 2 or 3 then think about going but it was 4th and 13. It was an asinine decision, they should have kicked the FG.

You would trust Gostokowski with a SB on the line?
Alot of his kicks are made in the 20's. Dont talk gostokowski up now 2 lol...You sure your a jets fan?

nyjunc
07-11-2008, 11:56 AM
You would trust Gostokowski with a SB on the line?
Alot of his kicks are made in the 20's. Dont talk gostokowski up now 2 lol...You sure your a jets fan?

The SB wasn't on the line(it was midway through the 3rd qtr) and I'd trust Gostowski as much as I'd trust any Kicker not named Adam Vinatieri.

His career stats:

From 20-29 yds: 20-21
From 30-39 yds: 15-19
From 40-49 yds: 5-9
From 50+ yds: 1-1

In postseason:

From 20-29 yds: 3-3
From 30-39 yds: 3-4
From 40-49 yds: 2-2
From 50+ yds: 1-1

godolphins1985
07-11-2008, 12:19 PM
The SB wasn't on the line(it was midway through the 3rd qtr) and I'd trust Gostowski as much as I'd trust any Kicker not named Adam Vinatieri.

His career stats:

From 20-29 yds: 20-21
From 30-39 yds: 15-19
From 40-49 yds: 5-9
From 50+ yds: 1-1

In postseason:

From 20-29 yds: 3-3
From 30-39 yds: 3-4
From 40-49 yds: 2-2
From 50+ yds: 1-1

Well i would say the game was on the line, its the freakin super bowl man. Cant get anymore on the line than that, every point counts in a game like that (obviously). Ya Belecheat was an idiot for not going for it but was it arrogance or was it unsure of his own kicker.

Also you never commented after i debunked you JJ comments any more additional comments you would like to say on that matter.

nyjunc
07-11-2008, 01:59 PM
Well i would say the game was on the line, its the freakin super bowl man. Cant get anymore on the line than that, every point counts in a game like that (obviously). Ya Belecheat was an idiot for not going for it but was it arrogance or was it unsure of his own kicker.

Also you never commented after i debunked you JJ comments any more additional comments you would like to say on that matter.


It was midway through the 3rd qtr when NE had a 7-3 lead, the game was not on the line. The dopey deciison may have shifted momentum a bit but the game was far from the on the line.

As far as your other point, the Pats supposedly used it for the same reasons. I think they claimed they didn't use it for in game adjustments so it was the same situation as JJ.

godolphins1985
07-11-2008, 02:05 PM
It was midway through the 3rd qtr when NE had a 7-3 lead, the game was not on the line. The dopey deciison may have shifted momentum a bit but the game was far from the on the line.

As far as your other point, the Pats supposedly used it for the same reasons. I think they claimed they didn't use it for in game adjustments so it was the same situation as JJ.

it was said that the pats were using it right there and then which is flat out bad.

either way i dont think there is any reason to discuss this anymore neither one is budging lol. Lets shake hands and call it a day:)

nyjunc
07-11-2008, 02:07 PM
it was said that the pats were using it right there and then which is flat out bad.

either way i dont think there is any reason to discuss this anymore neither one is budging lol. Lets shake hands and call it a day:)

Find me the info that says it was proven they used them in game?

Budge? why would I budge when I'm right?:D I'll shake hands and move along though:hi5:

godolphins1985
07-11-2008, 02:12 PM
Find me the info that says it was proven they used them in game?

Budge? why would I budge when I'm right?:D I'll shake hands and move along though:hi5:
on a different note, how well you think the jets going to do this year?

nyjunc
07-11-2008, 02:26 PM
on a different note, how well you think the jets going to do this year?

It's an even numbered year so I feel ok. I think we made great improvements in the offseason and if we get decent QB play we can be a playoff team. I think we'll win around 7-8 games and be in the race, we could be a little better than that and make it but we'll see.

godolphins1985
07-11-2008, 02:59 PM
It's an even numbered year so I feel ok. I think we made great improvements in the offseason and if we get decent QB play we can be a playoff team. I think we'll win around 7-8 games and be in the race, we could be a little better than that and make it but we'll see.


I think (like you said) that if the jets can get there QB situation down pat they can easily squeeze into the playoffs as a wildcard, i would love to see the jets dethrone the pats. Anything can happen ;)

i see them with at least 9 wins.

chris66
07-12-2008, 02:37 PM
they used it for the next game they would play them. Pats used it for ingame adjustments. That is cheating to the extreme man, not every team did what the pats were doing..

They didnt use the tapes for in game adjustments. The coaching staff didnt get the tape till the following monday.

also the colts went home in the divisional round because Adam V. missed a chip 28 yarder

also just to add to this disscusion which has many good points for an against. The nfln had the list of top ten qb's and top ten clutch qb's off all time. brady was the only active qb to make both lists. he was ranked #5 all time and #3 in clutch.

AK Tinajero
07-12-2008, 04:51 PM
ARE YOU SERIOUS???? If Marino had the team Brady had he would of thrown for like 55 touchdowns and 5000 yarrds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!