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WVDolphan
07-25-2008, 12:57 AM
Religulous :lol: Check out the preview.

http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/

Tetragrammaton
07-25-2008, 09:20 AM
I like Bill Maher a lot, and I saw him live two months ago, but I am not looking forward to this for some reason.

LouPhinFan
07-27-2008, 12:16 PM
Wow, you mean Bill Maher is making a movie that makes fun of people and what particular religion they believe in? You don't say.:rolleyes2:

He's been making anti-religious remarks for years. He once said something along the lines of "why do I need someone to cleanse my sins for me, when I can do it myself?". Its a shame.

ih8brady
07-27-2008, 12:36 PM
Wow, you mean Bill Maher is making a movie that makes fun of people and what particular religion they believe in? You don't say.:rolleyes2:

He's been making anti-religious remarks for years. He once said something along the lines of "why do I need someone to cleanse my sins for me, when I can do it myself?". Its a shame.

What's a shame about it? Morally, only you can right your wrongs with those you have done bad things to. Praying to the old man in the sky is the easy way out and ignores your true responsibilities to the people you actually interact with.

ih8brady
07-27-2008, 03:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOTS_UQLiJI

LouPhinFan
07-27-2008, 08:33 PM
What's a shame about it? Morally, only you can right your wrongs with those you have done bad things to. Praying to the old man in the sky is the easy way out and ignores your true responsibilities to the people you actually interact with.

I'm not talking about morals. Only Jesus can cleanse sins and get you into heaven. No matter how hard we try, we can't get ourselves into heaven. Bill thinks he can forgive his own sins, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

Tetragrammaton
07-27-2008, 09:01 PM
I'm not talking about morals. Only Jesus can cleanse sins and get you into heaven. No matter how hard we try, we can't get ourselves into heaven. Bill thinks he can forgive his own sins, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

Him saying it does work like that is the same as you saying it doesn't work like that. Both sides think they are right, and try to prove it on a daily basis.

Dolphan7
07-28-2008, 12:56 AM
Him saying it does work like that is the same as you saying it doesn't work like that. Both sides think they are right, and try to prove it on a daily basis.Yep! And only one is "side" is right. It is the age old battle of choices between good and evil.

"Choose this day whom you will serve.......but for me and my household I will serve the Lord!" Joshua 24:15

ih8brady
07-28-2008, 01:42 AM
Yep! And only one is "side" is right. It is the age old battle of choices between good and evil.

"Choose this day whom you will serve.......but for me and my household I will serve the Lord!" Joshua 24:15

So anyone who doesn't accept Jesus is evil? :rolleyes:



(I assume by evil, you mean deeply immoral, right?)

LouPhinFan
07-28-2008, 06:54 AM
So anyone who doesn't accept Jesus is evil? :rolleyes:



(I assume by evil, you mean deeply immoral, right?)

Not evil. There are going to be some 'good' people that go to Hell. They just didn't accept Jesus and follow his teachings. Look at Warren Buffett. He gave most of his vast fortune to charity, saying something to the effect of "there's several ways to heaven and this is one of them". Actions don't get your sins forgiven and you into heaven. In other words no matter how much 'good' you do, you can't earn your sins forgiven and your way into heaven.

There are going to be some people that the world considers 'good' that go to Hell. Its unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

LouPhinFan
07-28-2008, 06:55 AM
Him saying it does work like that is the same as you saying it doesn't work like that. Both sides think they are right, and try to prove it on a daily basis.

Yep, pretty much. Only one side is going to end up being right though...

emeraldfin
07-28-2008, 06:57 AM
So anyone who doesn't accept Jesus is evil? :rolleyes:



(I assume by evil, you mean deeply immoral, right?)

Nope just means your a heathen :D

Tetragrammaton
07-29-2008, 12:56 PM
So how is Maher encouraging people to rethink their faith any different than a missionary encouraging people to convert to their religion?

ih8brady
07-29-2008, 01:07 PM
So how is Maher encouraging people to rethink their faith any different than a missionary encouraging people to convert to their religion?


He's not proselytizing. He's not a pimp, and he is not guilt tripping people with collection plates.

He's asking, "Why should we respect any-and everything, even the ridiculous, just because people say it is part of their faith?"

ih8brady
07-29-2008, 01:08 PM
Is that Obama pic real? Is he really smoking? If so, he just gained a few cool points.

Dolphan7
07-29-2008, 01:10 PM
So how is Maher encouraging people to rethink their faith any different than a missionary encouraging people to convert to their religion?There is no difference.

Everyone believes in something. We all have some matter of faith in our lives, in our belief system, whatever that may be. Even Atheists believe that there is no God, and that belief system is based on faith.

Bill Maher is no different than a Sunday Preacher. Both are trying to show people which way is right.

Only problem is......they both can't be right. Only one of them can be right in the arena of mutual exclusiveness.

ih8brady
07-29-2008, 01:13 PM
There is no difference.

Everyone believes in something. We all have some matter of faith in our lives, in our belief system, whatever that may be. Even Atheists believe that there is no God, and that belief system is based on faith.

Bill Maher is no different than a Sunday Preacher. Both are trying to show people which way is right.

Only problem is......they both can't be right. Only one of them can be right in the arena of mutual exclusiveness.


Ah, the old "Atheism is a religion too" fallacy. Tried and true. Very cute.


Tell me, what is the holy book of atheism? Who are the prophets? What are the basic rules and codes? What are the political thoughts?

Can't answer? Yeah, well that's because it's not a religion?

Dolphan7
07-29-2008, 01:17 PM
He's not proselytizing. He's not a pimp, and he is not guilt tripping people with collection plates.

He's asking, "Why should we respect any-and everything, even the ridiculous, just because people say it is part of their faith?"Because when we go down the path that Bill Maher wants to take us, we end up selecting what is respectable and what is not based on subjective criterion, and then that leads to the debate of "who determines that criterion?". When we go down that road, we lose respect of the whole concept of respect.

Face it, anyone who takes this guy seriously is really asking for a huge let-down.


Bill Maher has gone on record against religion and specifically Christian religion. He has a personal problem with it and wants others to join in his crusade. Misery loves company I guess.

Dolphan7
07-29-2008, 01:19 PM
Ah, the old "Atheism is a religion too" fallacy. Tried and true. Very cute.


Tell me, what is the holy book of atheism? Who are the prophets? What are the basic rules and codes? What are the political thoughts?

Can't answer? Yeah, well that's because it's not a religion?I never said it was a religion.

I said that even an Atheist believes there is no God, but that belief is based on faith, as there is no evidence that proves there is no God.

Get it?

LouPhinFan
07-29-2008, 02:20 PM
I don't consider Atheism a religion. But Atheists do "believe" something however. It was debated ad nausem in an old thread on this board, but basically you can neither prove nor disprove there is a God because there are no way to test for the hypothesis.

Tetragrammaton
07-29-2008, 02:58 PM
But Atheists do "believe" something however.


I said that even an Atheist believes there is no God, but that belief is based on faith, as there is no evidence that proves there is no God.

Atheists believe nothing. Lets take Bigfoot. Do people who ask for evidence believe in something in regards to Bigfoot? No, because there needs to be proof.


He's not proselytizing. He's not a pimp, and he is not guilt tripping people with collection plates.

He's asking, "Why should we respect any-and everything, even the ridiculous, just because people say it is part of their faith?"

I think you misunderstood me. I agree with Maher completely on his stance on religion, but many people claim he is "attacking" faith. If that is so, than religious zealots are attacking reason and logic.

And yes, the picture is real. He definitely makes a cancer stick look cool.

HurriPhin
07-29-2008, 03:06 PM
Wow. Maher is truly pathetic. I can only imagine this will be as succesful as his other great movies: D.C. Cab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._Cab) (1983), Ratboy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratboy) (1986), Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibal_Women_in_the_Avocado_Jungle_of_Death) (1988), and Pizza Man.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_Man)

FinFatale
07-29-2008, 03:16 PM
ATHEISM
Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.
The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.

“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.
He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/

I never really considered what they believe however this is what they themselves say they believe from what they refer to as their educational website.

FinFatale
07-29-2008, 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouPhinFan http://www.finheaven.com/forums/_new/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1062543216#post1062543216)
But Atheists do "believe" something however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphan7
I said that even an Atheist believes there is no God, but that belief is based on faith, as there is no evidence that proves there is no God.

"Atheists believe nothing. Lets take Bigfoot. Do people who ask for evidence believe in something in regards to Bigfoot? No, because there needs to be proof." posted by Wayward West.
___________________________________________________________

I have to respectfully disagree with you and rely on what they themselves say they believe.

LouPhinFan
07-29-2008, 03:57 PM
Atheists believe nothing. Lets take Bigfoot. Do people who ask for evidence believe in something in regards to Bigfoot? No, because there needs to be proof.


Did you not read my entire post? Atheists believe there is no God. It has to be a belief because they can't prove otherwise. In the same manor, people who believe in God cannot directly prove his exsistence. There simply is not a way to test for the hypothosis.

FinFatale
07-29-2008, 04:03 PM
Did you not read my entire post? Atheists believe there is no God. It has to be a belief because they can't prove otherwise. In the same manor, people who believe in God cannot directly prove his exsistence. There simply is not a way to test for the hypothosis.


yes I read your whole posts and your post said that they believe in NOTHING. I just responded you didn't say they didn't believe in GOD.
I am old and don't do that " twist " very well , forgive me! :D

LouPhinFan
07-29-2008, 04:24 PM
yes I read your whole posts and your post said that they believe in NOTHING. I just responded you didn't say they didn't believe in GOD.
I am old and don't do that " twist " very well , forgive me! :D

My post wasn't directed at you, it was for WWZ.:)

Tetragrammaton
07-29-2008, 04:56 PM
Did you not read my entire post? Atheists believe there is no God. It has to be a belief because they can't prove otherwise. In the same manor, people who believe in God cannot directly prove his exsistence. There simply is not a way to test for the hypothosis.

That isn't a belief. It is the same as Bigfoot, Santa, and the Tooth Fairy.

I don't "believe" there isn't a God, it is just ludicrous for me to believe in one with no evidence.

emeraldfin
07-29-2008, 06:56 PM
I never said it was a religion.

I said that even an Atheist believes there is no God, but that belief is based on faith, as there is no evidence that proves there is no God.

Get it?

But D7 you dont have to prove what cant be proven

FinFatale
07-29-2008, 09:30 PM
My post wasn't directed at you, it was for WWZ.:)


Thanks for the kind retort LouPhin. It's appreciated!

WVDolphan
07-30-2008, 01:23 AM
Because when we go down the path that Bill Maher wants to take us, we end up selecting what is respectable and what is not based on subjective criterion, and then that leads to the debate of "who determines that criterion?". When we go down that road, we lose respect of the whole concept of respect.

Face it, anyone who takes this guy seriously is really asking for a huge let-down.


Bill Maher has gone on record against religion and specifically Christian religion. He has a personal problem with it and wants others to join in his crusade. Misery loves company I guess.

Hey, I will tell you this. Whats wrong with Bill Mahers path? The dude is rich, consistantly bangs hot chicks, gets wasted from time to time, gets to have political discussions with everyone from senators to Hollywood elite, seems like he is always having fun, and he CONSISTANTLY BANGS HOT CHICKS. All without having to be married and put up with some nagging, aging woman. If that isnt heaven, I dont know what is. Dude made it to heaven already. You call it misery though.

WVDolphan
07-30-2008, 01:26 AM
I never said it was a religion.

I said that even an Atheist believes there is no God, but that belief is based on faith, as there is no evidence that proves there is no God.

Get it?

NO! Its based on a LACK OF FAITH. Its based on actual physical evidence. Or actually the lack of physical evidence to prove that a "god" exists.

Dolphan7
07-30-2008, 12:20 PM
Hey, I will tell you this. Whats wrong with Bill Mahers path? The dude is rich, consistantly bangs hot chicks, gets wasted from time to time, gets to have political discussions with everyone from senators to Hollywood elite, seems like he is always having fun, and he CONSISTANTLY BANGS HOT CHICKS. All without having to be married and put up with some nagging, aging woman. If that isnt heaven, I dont know what is. Dude made it to heaven already. You call it misery though.What a Moral Magnet he is! Drawing to him a crowd of people who think that Bill Maher is the height of success and achievment in this world.

News Flash to Bill Maher: Live like the Devil.....because you will be spending a lot of time with him!

Bill Maher is morally bankrupt and only lives to hear his own words drool out of his mouth. The guy is a tool. He is against everything that is good and moral in this world.

Choose this day whom you will serve, for me and my house, We will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15

Enough. I have wasted too much time already on BM.

Ciao

Dolphan7
07-30-2008, 12:34 PM
NO! Its based on a LACK OF FAITH. Its based on actual physical evidence. Or actually the lack of physical evidence to prove that a "god" exists.It is based on faith because the Atheist is taking it on faith alone that the "evidence" is enough to prove what he believes in. Granted most Atheists won't ever admit they have a belief system at all, let alone one of faith. They would all say that the evidence is conclusive.

The fact is if you are looking at just physical evidence alone, you won't find enough proof for or against the existance of God.

Proof for or against the existance of God relies on spiritual and intellectual and logical thinking, not so much physical evidences. This physical evidence is not to be confused with evidence of God's Creation. That is a totally different subject for another day. I am specifically referring to the existance of the Being of God.

I know. I used to be an Atheist. For over 30 years.

Face it, if you are not looking for God and are convinced He doesn't exist, there is no amount of evidence to the contrary that you will even consider.

Tetragrammaton
07-30-2008, 01:08 PM
Bill Maher is morally bankrupt and only lives to hear his own words drool out of his mouth. The guy is a tool. He is against everything that is good and moral in this world.

He doesn't kill, steal, or harm anyone, as far as I know.


Face it, if you are not looking for God and are convinced He doesn't exist, there is no amount of evidence to the contrary that you will even consider.

Not true. I will believe in a God if you prove it, the same way I would aliens, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and the Tooth Fairy.

It isn't faith. If you can't prove something exists, it doesn't until proven otherwise, just like all other myths. Making someone prove God doesn't exist doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In a court of law, God would be ruled imaginary, given all of the (lack of) evidence.

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 01:09 PM
Religulous :lol: Check out the preview.

http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/

Me too! Looks great. It's hilarious the things he talks about when it comes to religion.

And yet, it all sounds so true too.

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 01:10 PM
Wow, you mean Bill Maher is making a movie that makes fun of people and what particular religion they believe in? You don't say.:rolleyes2:

He's been making anti-religious remarks for years. He once said something along the lines of "why do I need someone to cleanse my sins for me, when I can do it myself?". Its a shame.

How so? You're either religious or you're not. Have there been movies about religion, praising it and explaining it?

Yes and this is the same only the opposite.

It's fair game. He isn't doing anything wrong. You believe in it, he doesn't. There actually are folks out there who don't believe in religion.

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 01:12 PM
I'm not talking about morals. Only Jesus can cleanse sins and get you into heaven. No matter how hard we try, we can't get ourselves into heaven. Bill thinks he can forgive his own sins, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

You're speaking as if you really know. You don't and neither does he or anyone else.

It's the same thing only opposite. You have that right and so do the folks who disagree

:)

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 01:14 PM
There is no difference.

Everyone believes in something. We all have some matter of faith in our lives, in our belief system, whatever that may be. Even Atheists believe that there is no God, and that belief system is based on faith.

Bill Maher is no different than a Sunday Preacher. Both are trying to show people which way is right.

Only problem is......they both can't be right. Only one of them can be right in the arena of mutual exclusiveness.

And no one will ever know which side is right. No one, ever.

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 01:17 PM
What a Moral Magnet he is! Drawing to him a crowd of people who think that Bill Maher is the height of success and achievment in this world.

News Flash to Bill Maher: Live like the Devil.....because you will be spending a lot of time with him!

Bill Maher is morally bankrupt and only lives to hear his own words drool out of his mouth. The guy is a tool. He is against everything that is good and moral in this world.

Choose this day whom you will serve, for me and my house, We will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15

Enough. I have wasted too much time already on BM.

Ciao

I'd like to see the look on your face if one day you're proven wrong :)

Dolphan7
07-30-2008, 01:37 PM
And no one will ever know which side is right. No one, ever.Well if you have convinced yourself of that than yes. But based on your own logic, you won't know if you are right- that no one will ever know , ever. :)

Dolphan7
07-30-2008, 01:39 PM
I'd like to see the look on your face if one day you're proven wrong :)Well don't hold your breath.

To reciprocate - I don't want to see the look on your face when you are one day proven wrong - because to me that will be a sad day. :boohoo:

Tetragrammaton
07-30-2008, 02:00 PM
If the religious people are proven wrong, there won't be any face of astonishment to look at. It really hurts the whole experience.

Dolphan7
07-30-2008, 02:19 PM
He doesn't kill, steal, or harm anyone, as far as I know.
Is that your definition of morality? Who's definition should we use? Who gets to decide which definition to use?



Not true. I will believe in a God if you prove it, the same way I would aliens, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and the Tooth Fairy.I can't and won't try to prove God exists to you. You have to go and search for yourself. Asking Christians to prove God to you isn't searching. Now I can point to a few things that will make you think, but in the end you have to come to that conclusion yourself in your own mind, as each and everyone of us has to, or has had to.


It isn't faith. If you can't prove something exists, it doesn't until proven otherwise, just like all other myths. Making someone prove God doesn't exist doesn't make a whole lot of sense.I am not asking anyone to prove God doesn't exist. I am just stating fact that there is no physical evidence that God exists, or does not exist. Therefore the belief held by Atheists that God does not exist is based on faith. I would turn the question back to you and state that you can't say something doesn't exist unless it can be proven that it does indeed exist. We can know things exist on just a small amount of evidence of it's existance. Take Gravity for instance. We know little about it, yet we know it exists. We don't understand it, can't explain it, or reproduce it etc....it simply....is. Same with God. We see an apple fall to the ground. That is all the evidence we have. When it comes to God, we see the earth we live on. Where did it come from, how did it form? Where did we come from, how did we get here? That is all the evidence we have. What we can see and touch and hear, and smell and taste. But we also have the ability no other creature on earth posesses - a mind. A mind that can reason, and think, and question, and search, and make deductions etc...We all believe in something. Everyone of us. And we all want to know that what we believe in is the right one. But in a world with competing truths, we all can't be right. Only one truth is right. I am glad I found the truth. I hope that all men do.


In a court of law, God would be ruled imaginary, given all of the (lack of) evidence.Thankfully we don't get to limit our thinking and confine it to our manmade courts of law. We are free thinkers and that takes us out of the confines of courts and into a much more wide open and vibrant forum to determine the tough questions posed by our world. But.......let's say that we go with your scenario in a court of law, and that court determines that there is no God because there is not enough evidence to prove His existance......does that really mean there is no God? Just because a court of law says so? It really does beg the question, and a point I made earlier in this thread, God existance is not based on physical evidence alone, but intellectual and logical and spiritual etc....Use whatever you have available to you to answer the question. Don't be confined and limited by the criterion established by man.

LouPhinFan
07-30-2008, 02:32 PM
You're speaking as if you really know. You don't and neither does he or anyone else.



What I know is what the Bible says about the subject. Alot of people like to point at ambiguity and different interpretations in the Bible. One thing the good book is abundantly clear on is that Jesus is the only one that can forgive sins and is the only way to heaven. I believe that as well. If you think the Big Lebowski is the only one that can forgive sins, then that's your belief and we're welcome to that belief.

LouPhinFan
07-30-2008, 02:37 PM
How so? You're either religious or you're not. Have there been movies about religion, praising it and explaining it?

Yes and this is the same only the opposite.

It's fair game. He isn't doing anything wrong. You believe in it, he doesn't. There actually are folks out there who don't believe in religion.

I don't really understand your question here. "How so" what? I was trying to be funny, but let me phrase it a more direct manner:

Bill Maher, a man who is blatantly anti-religion, is making a movie that is basiclly an anti-religious comedy where during interviews he's going to make fun of people for what they believe. It doesn't surprise me.

I didn't say he was doing anything wrong. He's more than welcome to make his movie.

Tetragrammaton
07-30-2008, 03:19 PM
Is that your definition of morality? Who's definition should we use? Who gets to decide which definition to use?

That is my definition, and that is the definition that the United States has used for some time.

You have been using that argument for some time, and it doesn't work. If atheists cannot claim to have morals, then competing religions cannot either. We can all agree on letting people live freely without harming anyone, though. We have since Hammurabi.


I can't and won't try to prove God exists to you. You have to go and search for yourself. Asking Christians to prove God to you isn't searching. Now I can point to a few things that will make you think, but in the end you have to come to that conclusion yourself in your own mind, as each and everyone of us has to, or has had to.

That is a bit of a cop-out. Proponents of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster are held to a much higher standard.


I am not asking anyone to prove God doesn't exist. I am just stating fact that there is no physical evidence that God exists, or does not exist.

Okay, we can agree. It seems we understand. But wait.


Therefore the belief held by Atheists that God does not exist is based on faith. I would turn the question back to you and state that you can't say something doesn't exist unless it can be proven that it does indeed exist.

You sound like a moral relativist. If denying what you cannot prove is a belief, than you have a belief in things you don't know about. It is an attempt to undermine the other side. The truth is, atheism is based on reason (I am not saying I am automatically right, I am saying it is the logical conclusion until proven otherwise) and religion is based on faith. It doesn't take belief to not see something that isn't there.



When it comes to God, we see the earth we live on. Where did it come from, how did it form? Where did we come from, how did we get here? That is all the evidence we have. What we can see and touch and hear, and smell and taste.

I don't know, I wasn't there. For all I know the Earth and the universe has been here forever, and that would be the idea that one would have with no other information.


Thankfully we don't get to limit our thinking and confine it to our manmade courts of law. We are free thinkers and that takes us out of the confines of courts and into a much more wide open and vibrant forum to determine the tough questions posed by our world. But.......let's say that we go with your scenario in a court of law, and that court determines that there is no God because there is not enough evidence to prove His existance......does that really mean there is no God? Just because a court of law says so? It really does beg the question, and a point I made earlier in this thread, God existance is not based on physical evidence alone, but intellectual and logical and spiritual etc....Use whatever you have available to you to answer the question. Don't be confined and limited by the criterion established by man.

As I learned from a Law teacher, not guilty does not mean innocent. It means that there isn't enough evidence to convict. It would be brazen to accuse someone of something, just like it would be brazen to claim an absolute truth without knowledge.

I didn't come to atheism as a belief. There is no book that we all read. I looked at my Catholic father, and said "Thats crazy". And then I looked at my Jehovah's Witness grandparents and said "Well, that is crazy too". I still go down the list and am surprised that people believe the way they do. Especially Scientology.

I don't "deny" God, I simply don't believe everything I read.

Christians constantly try to paint atheism as on the same plane as religion. It simply isn't true. All religions are on one plane, and atheism is by itself.

I don't know if people will get this analogy, but here is my explanation. Some people believe John Beck is our future. Some believe Chad Henne is. I know, not believe, that the best person will get the spot.

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Well if you have convinced yourself of that than yes. But based on your own logic, you won't know if you are right- that no one will ever know , ever. :)

:lol:

Exactly and that's why it's amusing to me. Who knows anything? :up:

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 03:24 PM
Well don't hold your breath.

To reciprocate - I don't want to see the look on your face when you are one day proven wrong - because to me that will be a sad day. :boohoo:

There won't ever be proof of it in either way. We'll never know, so we'll just continue to sit here and bicker back and forth over something we'll never have the answer for

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 03:25 PM
What I know is what the Bible says about the subject. Alot of people like to point at ambiguity and different interpretations in the Bible. One thing the good book is abundantly clear on is that Jesus is the only one that can forgive sins and is the only way to heaven. I believe that as well. If you think the Big Lebowski is the only one that can forgive sins, then that's your belief and we're welcome to that belief.

I respect the heck out of you and what you're for brother.

But there's no proof that the Bible is 100% fact or even truthful about anything.

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 03:26 PM
I don't really understand your question here. "How so" what? I was trying to be funny, but let me phrase it a more direct manner:

Bill Maher, a man who is blatantly anti-religion, is making a movie that is basiclly an anti-religious comedy where during interviews he's going to make fun of people for what they believe. It doesn't surprise me.

I didn't say he was doing anything wrong. He's more than welcome to make his movie.

Is he making fun of folks or is he letting the us the audience in on what folks in the U.S. are about?

Hell it's clear, you either see the movie or not.

Dolphan7
07-30-2008, 06:38 PM
[quote=WaywardZest;1062544475]That is my definition, and that is the definition that the United States has used for some time.

You have been using that argument for some time, and it doesn't work. If atheists cannot claim to have morals, then competing religions cannot either. We can all agree on letting people live freely without harming anyone, though. We have since Hammurabi.
Don't confuse morals with basic human rights. There is a difference. You have your set of morals, I have mine. Yours says Bill Maher is a moral man. Mine says he is a heathen. Which one is right? How do we determine which one is right? They both can't be right? They could both be wrong I guess , but somewhere someone set of morals is right....right? This is why moral relativism doesn't work. We will never get to a absolute moral in this discussion, so let's just leave it as a difference of opinion.

Oh and by the way I never said Atheists cannot have morals. What I am saying in the case of this particular Atheist, and any that agree with him, that his morals are of the lowest on the planet.



That is a bit of a cop-out. Proponents of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster are held to a much higher standard.If I knew you were seriously interested in Jesus Christ, I would say more. But sadly you have shown no interest. If I am wrong I apologize.





You sound like a moral relativist. If denying what you cannot prove is a belief, than you have a belief in things you don't know about. It is an attempt to undermine the other side. The truth is, atheism is based on reason (I am not saying I am automatically right, I am saying it is the logical conclusion until proven otherwise) and religion is based on faith. It doesn't take belief to not see something that isn't there. That is exactly what I am saying: Atheists don't know if there is a God or not, they choose to believe there isn't one becausse they have persuaded themselves that there isn't one based on very narrow and limiting criterion. There is so much more out there that they don't know, or refuse to consider. They really haven't taken the logical and intellectual challenge. I am not saying it is a religion, but, it isn't based on reason, or facts or proof or anything. I can make the same argument in favor of God and call it reason as well. I came to believe in God because it was the only logical conclusion! That won't fly with you now will it? Atheism is just as much a matter of faith than any faith based religion in the world. Trust me I have been where you are at today. I was an Atheist for 30 years.





I don't know, I wasn't there. For all I know the Earth and the universe has been here forever, and that would be the idea that one would have with no other information.Can't argue with you there. With no other info that is a valid conclusion. Only we do have more information, depending on what your belief systems allows you to accept. But......Even if you conclude that the earth and universe have been there forever, how did they start? How did they begin. Matter cannot just come into existance by itself. Matter isn't infinite. Every piece of matter we know of is in some state of decay, breaking down over time. So where did it all come from? Matter can't just miraculously appear out of nowhere by itself can it? To believe that would take a much greater amount of faith then believing in a creator. If there is no God, then you have to be able to answer these questions.




As I learned from a Law teacher, not guilty does not mean innocent. It means that there isn't enough evidence to convict. It would be brazen to accuse someone of something, just like it would be brazen to claim an absolute truth without knowledge.I don't think anyone outside Atheism claims to have absolute truth without knowledge. I claim to know there is an absolute truth, WITH knowledge.


I didn't come to atheism as a belief. There is no book that we all read. I looked at my Catholic father, and said "Thats crazy". And then I looked at my Jehovah's Witness grandparents and said "Well, that is crazy too". I still go down the list and am surprised that people believe the way they do. Especially Scientology.
Sadly you have pointed out three of many of the worse examples of finding the truth of God.

I don't "deny" God, I simply don't believe everything I read.Then you aren't an Atheist? I thought you said you were?


Christians constantly try to paint atheism as on the same plane as religion. It simply isn't true. All religions are on one plane, and atheism is by itself.
Atheism may be by itself, but it is still based on faith.

I don't know if people will get this analogy, but here is my explanation. Some people believe John Beck is our future. Some believe Chad Henne is. I know, not believe, that the best person will get the spot.That is like saying : Some believe in God, others don't, But I know that when I die I will know for sure. More Agnostic than Atheistic if you ask me.

PhinzN703
07-30-2008, 08:51 PM
See how twisted up we all get despite there not being any answers out there for us?

ih8brady
07-30-2008, 09:17 PM
Is that your definition of morality? Who's definition should we use? Who gets to decide which definition to use?


I can't and won't try to prove God exists to you. You have to go and search for yourself. Asking Christians to prove God to you isn't searching. Now I can point to a few things that will make you think, but in the end you have to come to that conclusion yourself in your own mind, as each and everyone of us has to, or has had to.

I am not asking anyone to prove God doesn't exist. I am just stating fact that there is no physical evidence that God exists, or does not exist. Therefore the belief held by Atheists that God does not exist is based on faith. I would turn the question back to you and state that you can't say something doesn't exist unless it can be proven that it does indeed exist. We can know things exist on just a small amount of evidence of it's existance. Take Gravity for instance. We know little about it, yet we know it exists. We don't understand it, can't explain it, or reproduce it etc....it simply....is. Same with God. We see an apple fall to the ground. That is all the evidence we have. When it comes to God, we see the earth we live on. Where did it come from, how did it form? Where did we come from, how did we get here? That is all the evidence we have. What we can see and touch and hear, and smell and taste. But we also have the ability no other creature on earth posesses - a mind. A mind that can reason, and think, and question, and search, and make deductions etc...We all believe in something. Everyone of us. And we all want to know that what we believe in is the right one. But in a world with competing truths, we all can't be right. Only one truth is right. I am glad I found the truth. I hope that all men do.

Thankfully we don't get to limit our thinking and confine it to our manmade courts of law. We are free thinkers and that takes us out of the confines of courts and into a much more wide open and vibrant forum to determine the tough questions posed by our world. But.......let's say that we go with your scenario in a court of law, and that court determines that there is no God because there is not enough evidence to prove His existance......does that really mean there is no God? Just because a court of law says so? It really does beg the question, and a point I made earlier in this thread, God existance is not based on physical evidence alone, but intellectual and logical and spiritual etc....Use whatever you have available to you to answer the question. Don't be confined and limited by the criterion established by man.

So, creationism belongs in the science room because???

FinFatale
07-30-2008, 09:19 PM
See how twisted up we all get despite there not being any answers out there for us?

Seems discussions about religion does it everytime doesn't it? Of coure when it comes to discussing matters close to one's heart people get quite offended. It is part of our human nature to defend what we believe? I feel people are entitled to believe as they wish but they aren't entitled to try to shove it down anyone else's throat, that goes for both the religious and the non religious.

WVDolphan
07-31-2008, 12:32 AM
I don't really understand your question here. "How so" what? I was trying to be funny, but let me phrase it a more direct manner:

Bill Maher, a man who is blatantly anti-religion, is making a movie that is basiclly an anti-religious comedy where during interviews he's going to make fun of people for what they believe. It doesn't surprise me.

I didn't say he was doing anything wrong. He's more than welcome to make his movie.

Thing is that I dont think he is trying to make fun of the people.....They make fun of themselves. All he does is present simple questions and the answers they give are completely laughable. May as well believe in Santa.

FinFatale
07-31-2008, 09:42 AM
One do not have to be religious to respect others religion. Personally I have more to do with my life than spend my hard earned money to watch an opinionated man like him make fun of others. I guess some people still have a little class. ;)

ih8brady
07-31-2008, 09:50 AM
One do not have to be religious to respect others religion. Personally I have more to do with my life than spend my hard earned money to watch an opinionated man like him make fun of others. I guess some people still have a little class. ;)

So, I suppose you don't like most forms of comedy? They're either mocking somebody's political, social or cultural practices or beliefs. Heck, even observational humor mocks someone's actions, occupation, etc.

I hope you live up to your word, and have the class to never criticize Obama or political opinions you disagree with

Tetragrammaton
07-31-2008, 10:19 AM
One do not have to be religious to respect others religion. Personally I have more to do with my life than spend my hard earned money to watch an opinionated man like him make fun of others. I guess some people still have a little class. ;)

I paid to see Ben Stein make fun of himself for two hours not so long ago.

ih8brady
07-31-2008, 10:51 AM
I paid to see Ben Stein make fun of himself for two hours not so long ago.


You paid to watch that turd of a movie? I could have summed it up to you in six words: science leads you to killing people.

PhinzN703
07-31-2008, 11:11 AM
Seems discussions about religion does it everytime doesn't it? Of coure when it comes to discussing matters close to one's heart people get quite offended. It is part of our human nature to defend what we believe? I feel people are entitled to believe as they wish but they aren't entitled to try to shove it down anyone else's throat, that goes for both the religious and the non religious.

It's all about faith really. Since there is no and there never will be any proof of God existing or not existing, folks will still guard their beliefs.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that either. I just hope it doesn't turn one against another y'know?

PhinzN703
07-31-2008, 11:15 AM
One do not have to be religious to respect others religion. Personally I have more to do with my life than spend my hard earned money to watch an opinionated man like him make fun of others. I guess some people still have a little class. ;)

Your call really. Like I said earlier and just like with any movie or TV show, you don't like it, don't see it.

I will see it b/c I like Bill. I don't take life seriously to the point where I worry about being offended about everything. I like to laugh and Maher happens to be funny IMO and so I will enjoy the movie.

Dolphan7
07-31-2008, 12:14 PM
So, creationism belongs in the science room because???Don't confuse the issue of the "being" of God, which is what I have been referring to in this thread, with the evidence of God's "creation", which point to our origins. The later is certainly worthy of being taught alongside evolution or whatever manmade theories are being force fed our children. The former is impossible. We will never be able to see the Creator scientifically. But we can certainly see evidence of things He has created, or written, or how He has worked in peoples lives.

Dolphan7
07-31-2008, 12:24 PM
See how twisted up we all get despite there not being any answers out there for us?Well you can certainly speak for yourself on that, but I have found the answers I am looking for. There is no confusion on my part.

If you are confused and think that there is no way to get the answers.....I encourage you to keep looking and not reside yourself to a life of accepting that there is no way to know for sure.

I was an Atheist and Evolutionist for the first 30 years of my life and I thought the same way as you do now. I knew for a fact that Evolution was true and God was some figment of peoples imagination.

Oh how the times have changed. God has done some amazing things in my life and I am very thankful, because without God in my life I would either be dead or in prison by now.

You may not agree with me, or you may not entirely believe in Evolution either, but please don't think that there is no way to answer the tough questions of life. Absolute truth does exist, one simply has to want to search for it.

FinFatale
07-31-2008, 12:55 PM
Perhaps " Ow My Balls " will be included as double feature and those that enjoy " HUMOR" can get a double bang for their buck! :)

ih8brady
07-31-2008, 01:42 PM
Perhaps " Ow My Balls " will be included as double feature and those that enjoy " HUMOR" can get a double bang for their buck! :)


Well, if you like Idiocracy, maybe you do have a taste for satire :tongue:

HurriPhin
07-31-2008, 02:45 PM
Everyone wants physical proof of God. You have it. It's right in front of you. It's the world and universe in which we live in. The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer. The proof is in the air, the sea, molecular biology, biochemistry, & genetics. The proof that God exists is all around us. It's just up to you whether or not you want to believe in Him.

PhinzN703
08-01-2008, 10:14 AM
Everyone wants physical proof of God. You have it. It's right in front of you. It's the world and universe in which we live in. The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer. The proof is in the air, the sea, molecular biology, biochemistry, & genetics. The proof that God exists is all around us. It's just up to you whether or not you want to believe in Him.

To you, Dolphan and others maybe.

I don't see how that's proof of anything. Did God leave his initials in the clouds you see overhead? That still isn't proof.

It's okay though. There isn't much further we can go with this issue.