PDA

View Full Version : Sarah Palin - A Disaster for American Health Care



BAMAPHIN 22
09-10-2008, 11:43 AM
Sarah Palin is for free market health care, basically the same system we currently have right now. You know, it’s the one that doesn’t work and denies millions of poor people health coverage. She has the benefit of receiving government funded health insurance but she is in favor of denying that same type of coverage to 46 million uninsured Americans.


http://www.healthinsurancerates.com/32-sarah-palin-a-disaster-for-american-health-care.html

Tetragrammaton
09-10-2008, 11:52 AM
It works perfectly fine for her and her friends in high places. That is fine for them.

If government employees lost their free health care, maybe we would see some action.

FinFatale
09-10-2008, 12:08 PM
I also lived the socialist universal healthcare system......and because of it and its long waiting lists for " quality care " I had to come to the great USA for medical treatment to save my life.... if I had remained there I would be D E A D.

Clipse
09-10-2008, 12:35 PM
I sure would like to know how these democrats expect to get this Universal Health Care working. I would also like to know how much they think it's going to cost because I can tell you now, It's going to cost a **** load. Either way, Universal Health Care, what a bad idea...

ohall
09-10-2008, 12:41 PM
I sure would like to know how these democrat's expect to get this Universal Health Care working. I would also like to know how much they think it's going to cost because I can tell you now, It's going to cost a **** load. Either way, Universal Health Care, what a bad idea...

They are selling it as the RICH will pay more taxes and in turn that will pay for it. However I think most ppl understand the RICH do not pay taxes, they have accountants to get around that. They simply find ways to pass it on to everyone else. In some ways I do not blame them. If the government wanted to take up 60% of my wealth every year only because I am good at making money I'd be upset as well.

It's just class warfare it its worst. The more politicians say they are helping the poor the reality is the more they hurt them.

BlueFin
09-10-2008, 12:46 PM
Yes, I understand the Universal health care system in Canada is so bad many Canadiens come across the border to get quality healthcare.

While I certainly agree that the current system needs some tinkering, Universal healthcare seems like a very expensive bad idea.

I would like to see some regulation of the healthcare industry regarding costs, billing practices etc etc.....

I would also be in favor of making mandatory emergency healthcare free and a right to all citizens.

What I'm not in favor of, is the government subsidizing this nation of pill heads thats been created, and the many hypochondriacs. Unfortunately, these people abuse a Universal care system and ultimately destroy it.

LouPhinFan
09-10-2008, 12:56 PM
I work for a health insurance company. Later on tonight, when I'm not at work :unsure:, I'll give my thoughts on this subject.

poornate
09-10-2008, 01:10 PM
Most of our family lives scattered around in the EU... Ireland, Belgium... we even have folks up in Canada... I am telling you now... their healthcare is better than ours... The rate of tax increase for Universal coverage will come out to be less than what you pay now... I haven't been to the doctor in years (one trip for a sinus infection), my wife has, to the best of my knowledge outside of birthing our kids, never gone in the eight years we have lived together, and my kids combined have been once in 3 years outside of check-ups... but we pay over $5,000 a year for insurance... i can't do it... they keep cutting benefits to teachers... this year the coverage went up 15% in cost and was switched to an HMO... It is crazy what we endure... But there is that fear about bureaucracy impeding fast and effective care...

I can't say that there won't be challenges... but you have to believe that there is still going to be a place for supplemental insurance... and with the offset from what is federally provided covering the basics, the combined cost would be substantially lower... The only downside i have ever heard from the family is that it is hard, in their countries, to get dental things done.... and in Canada, because the population is so far flung, that specialists are a haul to reach.... we won't have that here... very few places are more than a hop from a major urban center...

The beauty is that there is a concentration on prevention when it is not privately run for profit... here, you have to get sick for anyone to profit off of you.... That needs to be changed... I have had to drop insurance on my family for two months within the last year... and on myself for 15 of the last 24 months because of the cost... it comes down to guarding against a remote possibility of disaster and... to be honest... food, gas, diapers.... I shouldn't have to choose... and neither should any of you....

Clipse
09-10-2008, 01:15 PM
Yes, I understand the Universal health care system in Canada is so bad many Canadiens come across the border to get quality healthcare.

While I certainly agree that the current system needs some tinkering, Universal healthcare seems like a very expensive bad idea.

I would like to see some regulation of the healthcare industry regarding costs, billing practices etc etc.....

I would also be in favor of making mandatory emergency healthcare free and a right to all citizens.

What I'm not in favor of, is the government subsidizing this nation of pill heads thats been created, and the many hypochondriacs. Unfortunately, these people abuse a Universal care system and ultimately destroy it.
Absolutely Right! I agree, healthcare does need some work, but Universal Health Care is just a really expensive bad idea. Universal Health Care will more than likely cause the doctors, physicians, etc. to not work as hard. Universal Health Care will make need for more doctors, physicians, etc. And when the demand is higher, they will start to get paid less, and imo, cause them to not do a good job. That is why Canada's Universal Healthcare is failing i think.

Clipse
09-10-2008, 01:17 PM
Most of our family lives scattered around in the EU... Ireland, Belgium... we even have folks up in Canada... I am telling you now... their healthcare is better than ours... The rate of tax increase for Universal coverage will come out to be less than what you pay now... I haven't been to the doctor in years (one trip for a sinus infection), my wife has, to the best of my knowledge outside of birthing our kids, never gone in the eight years we have lived together, and my kids combined have been once in 3 years outside of check-ups... but we pay over $5,000 a year for insurance... i can't do it... they keep cutting benefits to teachers... this year the coverage went up 15% in cost and was switched to an HMO... It is crazy what we endure... But there is that fear about bureaucracy impeding fast and effective care...

I can't say that there won't be challenges... but you have to believe that there is still going to be a place for supplemental insurance... and with the offset from what is federally provided covering the basics, the combined cost would be substantially lower... The only downside i have ever heard from the family is that it is hard, in their countries, to get dental things done.... and in Canada, because the population is so far flung, that specialists are a haul to reach.... we won't have that here... very few places are more than a hop from a major urban center...

The beauty is that there is a concentration on prevention when it is not privately run for profit... here, you have to get sick for anyone to profit off of you.... That needs to be changed... I have had to drop insurance on my family for two months within the last year... and on myself for 15 of the last 24 months because of the cost... it comes down to guarding against a remote possibility of disaster and... to be honest... food, gas, diapers.... I shouldn't have to choose... and neither should any of you....
The Canadian Healthcare is better than ours? You're the 1st person to say that. From all the sources I've seen mentioning they're healthcare, they say it is not good at all.

FinFatale
09-10-2008, 01:19 PM
In Canada, where health care is provincial specific I will add, lets take Ontario...Health Care unless you are supported by the governent there you have to pay O.H.I.P, Ontario Hospital Health Insurance Premiums.......for basic care.... this is based on family size and income.........if you want anything above basic care then you need pay for also extended health care......ie. bluecross would be one...........
other than that you get the basics but if you are a working member of society it isn't free..............I was very ill and because of many doctors leaving this system and moving out of country I had to come to the USA, goodness, I was told I had to wait, wait and see, they would contact me if it could be sooner but over three months for an MRI..........and I was battling cancer..........needless to say I came across and within three days had the MRI..........life saving yes......and if you are dependant on governmental health care you get what you pay for.....................and it's CRAP.

poornate
09-10-2008, 01:25 PM
The Canadian Healthcare is better than ours? You're the 1st person to say that. From all the sources I've seen mentioning they're healthcare, they say it is not good at all.

You know.... i really should have left Canada out... not because it's not better...It may be... it is rated higher i believe.. i just don't have the direct knowledge of it that I do with the brothers, cousins, aunts, etc... in Ireland and Belgium... So that being said... i know that Grandma Wendy, who lives in northern Ontario, also, like FF above, had cancer... but she had no problem getting treatment and recovering from it... I have no idea whether or not she has or is paying for advanced coverage... I know she had to travel a long ways... She lives on Manitoulin Island... which is pretty remote... So perhaps i should have omitted the Canada part without better direct knowledge...

Dolphan7
09-10-2008, 01:41 PM
I think free enterprise is the best healthcare system we can have, but just like we need to cut our Government spending, we need to cut the costs of drugs, and cut the costs of law suits, which drives up malpractice insurance for physicians......who pass that along to the patients etc....

Those two things are what is making our health care system expensive.

I believe McCain has a plan to attack those things right?

poornate
09-10-2008, 01:50 PM
I think free enterprise is the best healthcare system we can have, but just like we need to cut our Government spending, we need to cut the costs of drugs, and cut the costs of law suits, which drives up malpractice insurance for physicians......who pass that along to the patients etc....

Those two things are what is making our health care system expensive.

I believe McCain has a plan to attack those things right?

But it is not a plan that covers those citizens that just cannot afford it period...

BlueFin
09-10-2008, 02:21 PM
You know.... i really should have left Canada out... not because it's not better...It may be... it is rated higher i believe.. i just don't have the direct knowledge of it that I do with the brothers, cousins, aunts, etc... in Ireland and Belgium... So that being said... i know that Grandma Wendy, who lives in northern Ontario, also, like FF above, had cancer... but she had no problem getting treatment and recovering from it... I have no idea whether or not she has or is paying for advanced coverage... I know she had to travel a long ways... She lives on Manitoulin Island... which is pretty remote... So perhaps i should have omitted the Canada part without better direct knowledge...

I can assure you, Canada's healthcare is inferior.

Dolphan7
09-10-2008, 02:27 PM
But it is not a plan that covers those citizens that just cannot afford it period...
There is no plan on the table today that covers everyone. Even Obama's plan leaves 20-25 million Americans without healthcare.

Government assistance for healthcare is a band aid to the real problem. Which is Prices.

We need to focus on prices.

ohall
09-10-2008, 02:28 PM
But it is not a plan that covers those citizens that just cannot afford it period...

Can't ppl that cannot afford health care insurance go to clinics?

I understand this is not a pleasant experience, but it's not like they go with out in this country. As far as I can see we already have universal health care.

tucker
09-10-2008, 02:38 PM
I also lived the socialist universal healthcare system......and because of it and its long waiting lists for " quality care " I had to come to the great USA for medical treatment to save my life.... if I had remained there I would be D E A D.when i was in costa rica, i met a fellow who left the US to get health care in Costa Rica, b/c our system couldnt help him..

FinFatale
09-10-2008, 02:45 PM
when i was in costa rica, i met a fellow who left the US to get health care in Costa Rica, b/c our system couldnt help him..

I have known people who have travelled outside the US to Mexico as well. I guess it depends on what each individual is seeking and for me it was the emergence of my illness. USA was just across the border....

ohall
09-10-2008, 06:04 PM
when i was in costa rica, i met a fellow who left the US to get health care in Costa Rica, b/c our system couldnt help him..

Was he a citizen of that country? Outside of that I doubt he would get a vitamin from them.

finintheburgh
09-10-2008, 06:55 PM
But it is not a plan that covers those citizens that just cannot afford it period...


not to be a dicc but i dont see how you can complain. you are a teacher who is supplied benefits by your job. you may not like the cost of them but they are far cheaper than some one who has to pay the whole thing.

i guess a differ from you because i dont think that healthcare is a right. i dont have health care, its a chance i take. i dont think that tax dollars from other people should go to my healthcare. ive had jobs that suppilied it and that was a benefit for taking that job, its like making extra money. now i took a job that pays more but doesnt offer healthcare. now if i want it i have to pay for it. and thats how it should be.

i dont think that anyone who goes out and buys a new car with a high payment and lives in a nice house should be given free healthcare. thats what its coming to because the poor already get free or cheap gov healthcare

Ferretsquig
09-10-2008, 07:48 PM
I sure would like to know how these democrat's expect to get this Universal Health Care working. I would also like to know how much they think it's going to cost because I can tell you now, It's going to cost a **** load. Either way, Universal Health Care, what a bad idea...

Per capita spending on health care:

US: $6400
Canada: $3170
France: $3040
Germany: $3171
UK: $2560

Argue quality of care if you will. Don't argue cost. Universal health care is far cheaper than the pseudo-private health care in the US.

phinfan3411
09-10-2008, 08:10 PM
There is no plan on the table today that covers everyone. Even Obama's plan leaves 20-25 million Americans without healthcare.

Government assistance for healthcare is a band aid to the real problem. Which is Prices.

We need to focus on prices.


Honestly, I really think it comes down to what Dolphan7 said, the real problem is prices. There is probably waste, and gouging everywhere, in every facet. Somehow we need to fix the problem, not put a band aid on it.

Clipse
09-10-2008, 08:35 PM
Per capita spending on health care:

US: $6400
Canada: $3170
France: $3040
Germany: $3171
UK: $2560

Argue quality of care if you will. Don't argue cost. Universal health care is far cheaper than the pseudo-private health care in the US.
I coould care less about all that per capita bull **** to be honest. Universal Health Care = Higher Taxes Finintheburgh put it the best way possible.

ohall
09-10-2008, 08:38 PM
Per capita spending on health care:

US: $6400
Canada: $3170
France: $3040
Germany: $3171
UK: $2560

Argue quality of care if you will. Don't argue cost. Universal health care is far cheaper than the pseudo-private health care in the US.

But those other countries have subsidized health care, don't they? Of course it is going to be cheaper. They simply take more taxes away from people who actually work to pay for that cheaper health care for everyone, even the ppl who don't work.

When you include the TAX burden per person things change.

Clipse
09-10-2008, 08:43 PM
But those other countries have subsidized health care, don't they? Of course it is going to be cheaper. They simply take more taxes away from people who actually work to pay for that cheaper health care for everyone, even the ppl who don't work.
Yup. All Obama is going to do is raise taxes. No ****ing thanks. I'll gladly pay for quality healthcare, Obama wins and it's raised taxes and lower quality healthcare.

Ferretsquig
09-10-2008, 09:30 PM
But those other countries have subsidized health care, don't they? Of course it is going to be cheaper. They simply take more taxes away from people who actually work to pay for that cheaper health care for everyone, even the ppl who don't work.

When you include the TAX burden per person things change.

I don't think you understand. Those numbers represent the entirety of health care costs in those countries. In Germany and France that number is the tax burden per person as the entire health care system is public.

LouPhinFan
09-10-2008, 11:12 PM
The best answer is a hybrid of both. I work for a health insurance company and I see alot of the issue we've been talking about. The reason healthcare is more expensive is 3 fold: patients, providers, and insurance companies.

Patients: As a society we simply do not take as good a care of ourselves as we used to. Obesity is at an all time high and along with that comes all of the negative health problems. We're less active and we're eating fatty foods.

Providers (doctors, hospitals, etc.): They charge for every single thing. You know $20 for an asprin, etc. If you're inpatient at a hospital a doctor can stop by, check your vitals, ask you how you feel and walk out. After spending no more than 2 minutes with you, they can bill a claim to your insurance.

Insurance Companies: They are for profit companies and that is their business. The main problem they have is modernization. The profit margins are razor thin in health insurance. Not alot of money was spent on technological advancement. It was not until HIPAA was passed that insurance companies finally had to spend money updating their computer systems that they started to modernize. Electronic claims and claims filing have come a long way over the past 5 years.


The best thing would be a hybrid of universal and commercial. I think every child should be covered universally until a certain age and then their family commercial insurance should take over until they are out of college or age 20 if they don't go to college. This would take some of the burden off of the family.

ohall
09-10-2008, 11:33 PM
I don't think you understand. Those numbers represent the entirety of health care costs in those countries. In Germany and France that number is the tax burden per person as the entire health care system is public.

Sorry I don't buy it.

poornate
09-10-2008, 11:54 PM
not to be a dicc but i dont see how you can complain. you are a teacher who is supplied benefits by your job. you may not like the cost of them but they are far cheaper than some one who has to pay the whole thing.

i guess a differ from you because i dont think that healthcare is a right. i dont have health care, its a chance i take. i dont think that tax dollars from other people should go to my healthcare. ive had jobs that suppilied it and that was a benefit for taking that job, its like making extra money. now i took a job that pays more but doesnt offer healthcare. now if i want it i have to pay for it. and thats how it should be.

i dont think that anyone who goes out and buys a new car with a high payment and lives in a nice house should be given free healthcare. thats what its coming to because the poor already get free or cheap gov healthcare

We do differ then... because I think that a it should be a right...There is no reason for a single person in the United States to be without health care... To me it is a basic right... like education, like police protection... I'm happy for part of my tax dollars to go to your health care... i don't think you should have to choose between a better job and being able to have an illness treated... BTW... I am dropping my school coverage on myself... it is cheaper now to buy it as an individual... so don't think that I have some advantage that I don't.... Wealthy people, poor people... doesn't matter to me... We pay progressive taxes in the United States... so the people that have those higher incomes will proportionally be paying more anyway.... Everyone deserves to have an illness treated.... We are the world's most advanced economy and there is no reason we should not be able or willing to provide this...:up:

poornate
09-11-2008, 12:05 AM
Honestly, I really think it comes down to what Dolphan7 said, the real problem is prices. There is probably waste, and gouging everywhere, in every facet. Somehow we need to fix the problem, not put a band aid on it.

Universal coverage is not a band-aid, it is a cure... You say the problem is prices... well prices and profits leave the equation... Costs will go DOWN. Prevention becomes the goal... lifestyle, prevention, access, education... they will want to prevent problems from escalating because it lowers costs....

poornate
09-11-2008, 12:07 AM
There is no plan on the table today that covers everyone. Even Obama's plan leaves 20-25 million Americans without healthcare.

Government assistance for healthcare is a band aid to the real problem. Which is Prices.

We need to focus on prices.

There is no way to lower prices and increase access as long as life and death are profit margins.... As far as Obama's plan... you have to open the door before you can get all the way in the house....

Ferretsquig
09-11-2008, 12:32 AM
Sorry I don't buy it.

Not that in my wildest imagination would I believe you would actually read something like this or believe it......but what the hell; we can give it a shot:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/24/4/903?ijkey=Tjqt6ve3LQZ3I&keytype=ref&siteid=healthaff

The numbers aren't exactly up to date, but its the best overview piece I can find.

ohall
09-11-2008, 12:57 AM
Not that in my wildest imagination would I believe you would actually read something like this or believe it......but what the hell; we can give it a shot:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/24/4/903?ijkey=Tjqt6ve3LQZ3I&keytype=ref&siteid=healthaff

The numbers aren't exactly up to date, but its the best overview piece I can find.

I use to have newer data, but I lost the LINK, and of course google has removed it from their data base.

I think like most issues both sides can crunch numbers any way they like.

For me it is just counter intuitive to think it will be cheaper if more ppl use up the health care resources while some do not pay back into that system. Someone has to pay for it, and if someone is too poor to pay for health insurance someone who has more money will have to pay their share.

poornate
09-11-2008, 01:09 AM
The only people who will not be contributing monetarily while benefiting are those who are citizens and who are not paying taxes... a low number... There will always be things like that... it just is a side affect....

ohall
09-11-2008, 01:29 AM
The only people who will not be contributing monetarily while benefiting are those who are citizens and who are not paying taxes... a low number... There will always be things like that... it just is a side affect....

Would you think if you earn more you will pay more?

Ferretsquig
09-11-2008, 01:39 AM
I use to have newer data, but I lost the LINK, and of course google has removed it from their data base.

I think like most issues both sides can crunch numbers any way they like.

For me it is just counter intuitive to think it will be cheaper if more ppl use up the health care resources while some do not pay back into that system. Someone has to pay for it, and if someone is too poor to pay for health insurance someone who has more money will have to pay their share.

I already gave you more recent data, and you chose not to believe it. If for some reason you believe this data instead, it's pretty easy to extrapolate the figures for the present day. In '02 the euro was worth a little less than a dollar, today is worth ~1.4 dollars.

In a universal health care system those who have the means do have to pay for those who do not. But what people seem not to realize is that the US insurance payer already does that, except at far higher rates than people in other countries.

Noone has the perfect solution for our health care woes, but its hard to argue with the numbers. People in every other industrialized nation in the world have some sort of universal health care, and most pay less than half of what we do for 70% coverage. There's just no way to justify that.

ohall
09-11-2008, 01:44 AM
I already gave you more recent data, and you chose not to believe it. If for some reason you believe this data instead, it's pretty easy to extrapolate the figures for the present day. In '02 the euro was worth a little less than a dollar, today is worth ~1.4 dollars.

In a universal health care system those who have the means do have to pay for those who do not. But what people seem not to realize is that the US insurance payer already does that, except at far higher rates than people in other countries.

Noone has the perfect solution for our health care woes, but its hard to argue with the numbers. People in every other industrialized nation in the world have some sort of universal health care, and most pay less than half of what we do for 70% coverage. There's just no way to justify that.

Where did you put a LINK to the 1st set of data you posted?

Of course it is, It's not hard at all. The 1st set of numbers you posted simply make no sense to me at all. They appear to be padded. I'm not saying you did, I'm saying whoever did the so called research.

poornate
09-11-2008, 01:49 AM
Would you think if you earn more you will pay more?

Yes... because it is a part of the tax system... And we have a progressive tax in the United States....

Ferretsquig
09-11-2008, 01:56 AM
Of course it is, It's not hard at all. The 1st set of numbers you posted simply make no sense to me at all. They appear to be padded. I'm not saying you did, I'm saying whoever did the so called research.

You can choose to believe whatever you feel like. If you like the second set of numbers better, then believe them. As I stated before, the conversion to today's dollar value is really simple. Just multiply that US figure by 1.5 and you're pretty close.

ohall
09-11-2008, 02:02 AM
You can choose to believe whatever you feel like. If you like the second set of numbers better, then believe them. As I stated before, the conversion to today's dollar value is really simple. Just multiply that US figure by 1.5 and you're pretty close.

I was doing some light reading on this and I was amazed just how out of control things have become.

It seems to me our border issues with Mexico and out of control law suits play a large role in why our spending is out of control. I'd like to see us address these issues before we go down the socialist road of universal health care.

Canada, France, Germany and the UK don't have to deal with the Mexican border and the amount of illegal aliens that we have to deal with in this country. I can see just that alone would twist the numbers the way they do.

ohall
09-11-2008, 02:03 AM
Yes... because it is a part of the tax system... And we have a progressive tax in the United States....

I don't like our tax system. The rich although taxed more than others rarely pay what they are supposed to and they end up passing the burden on to all of us.

I think the same thing would take place with any health care system that is progressive.

Ferretsquig
09-11-2008, 02:20 AM
I was doing some light reading on this and I was amazed just how out of control things have become.

It seems to me our border issues with Mexico and out of control law suits play a large role in why our spending is out of control. I'd like to see us address these issues before we go down the socialist road of universal health care.

Canada, France, Germany and the UK don't have to deal with the Mexican border and the amount of illegal aliens that we have to deal with in this country. I can see just that alone would twist the numbers the way they do.

While popular explanations, neither makes that much of a difference. As the posted article states, total litigation in the US does not differ substantially from that in the UK or Canada....in total .46% of total health care spending. California did away with most health care litigation years ago and they have seen little benefit in cost.

The illegal immigrant argument doesn't hold up either when you try to compare our situation to that in France, which has a far higher percentage of non-tax paying aliens than we do.

Both are legitimate concerns, but neither explain why we pay twice as much as everyone else.

LouPhinFan
09-11-2008, 06:55 AM
I think its also important to ask:

Can a universal healthcare system be viable over a long period of time with a population size of the United States. All the examples given of countries that have universal healthcare have substantially smaller populations that the US.

poornate
09-11-2008, 07:38 AM
I think its also important to ask:

Can a universal healthcare system be viable over a long period of time with a population size of the United States. All the examples given of countries that have universal healthcare have substantially smaller populations that the US.

A great question... perhaps we should find out?;)

By substantially you mean above 50,000,000... when you get to these numbers i think it is just a matter of infrastructure, which we have... I believe that there are some things Americans can just do better... We have "socialized" police... seems consistent and well done compared to other nations... Our post office is a "socialized" institution... Our schools... we can handle it...

FinFatale
09-11-2008, 08:28 AM
One of the biggest problem with our health care system and something that the I don't think the Bush administration had done enough about it is corporate drug fraud...at our expense and people again, abusing a system making it more expensive for others who aren't.

Take France for example.......there the doctors don't make near as much money as they do here, the medical schools are difficult to attend but they are tuition free so the doctors don't step out with a heavy burden to begin with. Practice liability/malpractice insurance is also much cheaper thanks to a tort-averse legal system .All doctors in France participate in the nation's public health insurance, Sécurité Sociale.
French legislators also stopped the insurance industry from resisting by letting already existing insurers to administer its new healthcare funds. Private health insurers are also central to the system as supplemental insurers who cover patient expenses that are not paid for by Sécurité Sociale. I think around 90 percent of the population in France carry extended insurance, so the insurance companies provide that. All sounds great however it has the problem of paying for itself...and French reformers' number one priority is to move health insurance financing away from payroll and wage levies because they does effect ( or is that affect?? DK??) employers' willingness to hire. Instead, France is turning toward broad taxes on earned and unearned income alike to pay for healthcare.
France has one of the better system between itself , Canada and Britan........IMO BUT I am no advocate of this system.........it's not what some crack it up to be........

LouPhinFan
09-11-2008, 09:28 AM
A great question... perhaps we should find out?;)

By substantially you mean above 50,000,000... when you get to these numbers i think it is just a matter of infrastructure, which we have... I believe that there are some things Americans can just do better... We have "socialized" police... seems consistent and well done compared to other nations... Our post office is a "socialized" institution... Our schools... we can handle it...

Those examples of socialized institutions are great, but they were started decades ago and have evolved with the population increase. The USPS is slowly dieing and the public school system, well I don't think I really need to say what shape our public school systems are in right now.

With healthcare you're talking about creating from almost scratch a universal healthcare system for 305 million people. I don't know that it can be done much less done properly. Especially with how disfunctional Washington D.C. is right now. Whether or not universal healthcare works can be debate back and forth, but I just think at this point and time with our population its a pipe dream.

poornate
09-11-2008, 09:52 AM
Those examples of socialized institutions are great, but they were started decades ago and have evolved with the population increase. The USPS is slowly dieing and the public school system, well I don't think I really need to say what shape our public school systems are in right now.

With healthcare you're talking about creating from almost scratch a universal healthcare system for 305 million people. I don't know that it can be done much less done properly. Especially with how disfunctional Washington D.C. is right now. Whether or not universal healthcare works can be debate back and forth, but I just think at this point and time with our population its a pipe dream.

First of all... education is not in the abysmal state that everyone thinks it is.... Education, as a system, is probably better now than it has ever been in our nation.... The infrastructure for Universal coverage already exists... The hospitals, insurance companies, doctors, etc.. are the system... It's not as complicated as people want to believe it is... There just needs to be a system of codified payout for procedure and the payee to the institution will change...

BTW... the USPS dying out is not related to its effectiveness... it is very effective and regulated... It is dying because of the exponential rise of technology... so while it serves as my example effectively... it's health, IMHO, is irrelevant...

FinFatale
09-11-2008, 10:11 AM
Those examples of socialized institutions are great, but they were started decades ago and have evolved with the population increase. The USPS is slowly dieing and the public school system, well I don't think I really need to say what shape our public school systems are in right now.

With healthcare you're talking about creating from almost scratch a universal healthcare system for 305 million people. I don't know that it can be done much less done properly. Especially with how disfunctional Washington D.C. is right now. Whether or not universal healthcare works can be debate back and forth, but I just think at this point and time with our population its a pipe dream.

There are many factors to consider. Abuse of " systems " is a major one.
We have so much of that now and it's very difficult to police. I read something the other day and it ended up saying How could you like to be dealing " the DMV" when it comes to your healthcare........personally I don't like dealing with the DMV LOL

Mr772
09-11-2008, 11:35 AM
The fact is what we have now doesn't work and socialized medicine isn't going to work either.

My largest gripe is that the administration has done little to nothing to try and fix or even address the problem over the last two terms! The only thing they seem to care about is which contract they are going to give to Halliburton next.

Dolphan7
09-11-2008, 01:16 PM
I have no idea of national healthcare will work in the US or not. And I don't really think anyone knows for sure all the details of such an undertaking.

But I do know that right now in this countries situation, implementing such a large scale program is one of the last things this country needs.

Let's pay down our debt, stabilize the economy and work on the trade deficit.

We have some things to fix before we add more to the load.

ohall
09-11-2008, 02:57 PM
I have no idea of national healthcare will work in the US or not. And I don't really think anyone knows for sure all the details of such an undertaking.

But I do know that right now in this countries situation, implementing such a large scale program is one of the last things this country needs.

Let's pay down our debt, stabilize the economy and work on the trade deficit.

We have some things to fix before we add more to the load.

I agree let's get our debt in order and fix social security 1st then maybe we can think about some form of national health care.

It's a wonderful idea, and I think everyone supports the thought, but some don't support the debt that it is likely to bring to this country.

Ferretsquig
09-11-2008, 03:53 PM
With healthcare you're talking about creating from almost scratch a universal healthcare system for 305 million people. I don't know that it can be done much less done properly. Especially with how disfunctional Washington D.C. is right now. Whether or not universal healthcare works can be debate back and forth, but I just think at this point and time with our population its a pipe dream.

Its incredibly easy. Initially you use the same institutions that already exist and nothing changes except where a person's insurance check goes to. Nationalizing health care would be more about slowly eliminating programs rather than creating anything. Instead of the mess that is insurance, medicare, medicade, and drug subsidy programs, you bring everyone under one umbrella coverage. The only people that end up suffering are the drug and insurance companies, which shouldn't be for profit enterprises in the first place.

LouPhinFan
09-11-2008, 05:04 PM
Its incredibly easy. Initially you use the same institutions that already exist and nothing changes except where a person's insurance check goes to. Nationalizing health care would be more about slowly eliminating programs rather than creating anything. Instead of the mess that is insurance, medicare, medicade, and drug subsidy programs, you bring everyone under one umbrella coverage. The only people that end up suffering are the drug and insurance companies, which shouldn't be for profit enterprises in the first place.

:lol:

Says you. Insurance maybe, but without drug company profit there would be no drug research. And thus new drugs would be slow to materialize or not materialize at all. I'm guessing you want the government to research drugs and put them out for the US populace. Yeah, that wouldn't take forever...:rolleyes:

finintheburgh
09-11-2008, 08:40 PM
We do differ then... because I think that a it should be a right...There is no reason for a single person in the United States to be without health care... To me it is a basic right... like education, like police protection... I'm happy for part of my tax dollars to go to your health care... i don't think you should have to choose between a better job and being able to have an illness treated... BTW... I am dropping my school coverage on myself... it is cheaper now to buy it as an individual... so don't think that I have some advantage that I don't.... Wealthy people, poor people... doesn't matter to me... We pay progressive taxes in the United States... so the people that have those higher incomes will proportionally be paying more anyway.... Everyone deserves to have an illness treated.... We are the world's most advanced economy and there is no reason we should not be able or willing to provide this...:up:

whats next universal car insurance? if i cant afford it will it be suppilied to. hell why not just pay me to stay home? what motovation is there to go out and earn anything when the gov will supply it thanks to someone elses hard work?

do you realize what would come with a universal healthcare? the gov would be able to tell you what you can or cannot eat or drink. i dont want to live in a state where im told that i cant eat at mcdonalds (example) or have a smoke. i dont want to be told that im not allowed to have a beer. it will turn into a circus and i dont need big brother interfering any more than they already do.

Clipse
09-12-2008, 07:19 AM
whats next universal car insurance? if i cant afford it will it be suppilied to. hell why not just pay me to stay home? what motovation is there to go out and earn anything when the gov will supply it thanks to someone elses hard work?

do you realize what would come with a universal healthcare? the gov would be able to tell you what you can or cannot eat or drink. i dont want to live in a state where im told that i cant eat at mcdonalds (example) or have a smoke. i dont want to be told that im not allowed to have a beer. it will turn into a circus and i dont need big brother interfering any more than they already do.
Exactly. It would make me sick knowing that my taxes would be increased to help give Healthcare to people who are too lazy to get off their *** and find a job. Same thing with welfare. Sure, alot of people deserve welfare, but most people who get welfare are either too lazy to get a job, or spend all their money on drugs and other worthless things. All Democrats want to do is give handout's to people not deserving of them and then raise taxes to pay for them, what a stupid idea.

Tetragrammaton
09-12-2008, 08:27 AM
do you realize what would come with a universal healthcare? the gov would be able to tell you what you can or cannot eat or drink. i dont want to live in a state where im told that i cant eat at mcdonalds (example) or have a smoke. i dont want to be told that im not allowed to have a beer. it will turn into a circus and i dont need big brother interfering any more than they already do.

Show me a country with universal health care that does that.

poornate
09-12-2008, 09:09 AM
Exactly. It would make me sick knowing that my taxes would be increased to help give Healthcare to people who are too lazy to get off their *** and find a job. Same thing with welfare. Sure, alot of people deserve welfare, but most people who get welfare are either too lazy to get a job, or spend all their money on drugs and other worthless things. All Democrats want to do is give handout's to people not deserving of them and then raise taxes to pay for them, what a stupid idea.

It's then a values thing... because I think theyt deserve it and i am happy to help pay for it... of course there will be abuses... there always are... But the facts support the statement that they will be minimal... Instead of saying X and Y about welfare, look at the numbers... We have a small welfare system... it has few abuses... You are buying into the myth of corruption run wild... Few people stay on assistance for very long and normally they are young mothers... Not "lifers"... When you talk about people who won't work, etc... what about people who just can't afford it... i pointed out in another thread that my father has had to cancel his insurance... He is 55 years old and very healthy except for the fact that he is diabetic... he is on pills, not shots, eats right, and exercises... His insurance, because of his age and diabetes, is $8-900 a month depending on what coverage he took... He works 6 days a week, 10-12 hour days.... Is that right? fair? I think everyone should be able to see a doctor if they are sick...

If my father, who hasn't been to the doctor for years except for check-ups, were to get cancer he would die... because of money. We are the world's most advanced economy. If we are to be on the forefront of the world's stage, how can we do it without forwarding the same human considerations that other nations afford their citizens? We are the ONLY industrialized nation in the world that doesn't at LEAST guarantee some type of universal coverage... embarrassing.

FinFatale
09-12-2008, 09:46 AM
This is solely my own opinion and not meant as a " racist " or " elitists" in anyway...............now that being said........I think the some of the situation before, during and after Katrina in New Orleans can be blamed on " generational welfare"..........people who have always been so dependant on the government that when an emergency arose they were stimied..........Generational welfare is a problem that can be linked to many other problems I am aware of that........but that doesn't mean that isn't a problem........

poornate
09-12-2008, 10:33 AM
This is solely my own opinion and not meant as a " racist " or " elitists" in anyway...............now that being said........I think the some of the situation before, during and after Katrina in New Orleans can be blamed on " generational welfare"..........people who have always been so dependant on the government that when an emergency arose they were stimied..........Generational welfare is a problem that can be linked to many other problems I am aware of that........but that doesn't mean that isn't a problem........

There is nothing to say that the people who remained in New Orleans were all on welfare... so that does come across as elitist and a bit racist, even though I know that is not how you meant it. You have to ask yourself some questions.... how does it feel to be forced to leave your home? Where will I go? Do those people have cars? What experiences have they had that would embolden them to leave?

How many people have ever left that city who are impoverished? What do you think?

(even though I have to add... this as a rabbit trail doesn't really fit in or add to the topic)

Clipse
09-12-2008, 10:37 AM
It's then a values thing... because I think theyt deserve it and i am happy to help pay for it... of course there will be abuses... there always are... But the facts support the statement that they will be minimal... Instead of saying X and Y about welfare, look at the numbers... We have a small welfare system... it has few abuses... You are buying into the myth of corruption run wild... Few people stay on assistance for very long and normally they are young mothers... Not "lifers"... When you talk about people who won't work, etc... what about people who just can't afford it... i pointed out in another thread that my father has had to cancel his insurance... He is 55 years old and very healthy except for the fact that he is diabetic... he is on pills, not shots, eats right, and exercises... His insurance, because of his age and diabetes, is $8-900 a month depending on what coverage he took... He works 6 days a week, 10-12 hour days.... Is that right? fair? I think everyone should be able to see a doctor if they are sick...

If my father, who hasn't been to the doctor for years except for check-ups, were to get cancer he would die... because of money. We are the world's most advanced economy. If we are to be on the forefront of the world's stage, how can we do it without forwarding the same human considerations that other nations afford their citizens? We are the ONLY industrialized nation in the world that doesn't at LEAST guarantee some type of universal coverage... embarrassing.
Small welfare system is correct. Thank George Dubya for that. With that being gaid, Clinton gave away welfare like candy. I'm almost positive Barack will too.

Edit. We don't guarantee a univeral coverage like other countries do because it fails in most of those other countries :rolleyes2:

FinFatale
09-12-2008, 10:45 AM
I meant in on way that ALL people that stayed there were on welfare...perhaps I should have said government assistance.....but I will deleve a little further to substantiate my claim....I do understand that some people are impoverished as well...as far as this not being on topic I think that we are discussing a national program that will be provided to ALL then we are taking economics as well....and this issue is directly related to who will pay taxes toward paying for a national healthcare system and who won't.......if you are on government assistance I do not believe you are taxed are you???????

Clipse
09-12-2008, 10:52 AM
The fact of the matter is, Democrats always want to give handouts....and alot of those people arent deserving of those handouts. Not to mention, they will raise taxes. With that being said, somebody needs to change this "Foreigner Tax Policy". It makes me sick knowing that people who move to this country are tax exempt for X amount of years. If you want to live in this nation, you should have to live with the tax burdens of this nation.

poornate
09-12-2008, 10:57 AM
Small welfare system is correct. Thank George Dubya for that. With that being gaid, Clinton gave away welfare like candy. I'm almost positive Barack will too.

Edit. We don't guarantee a univeral coverage like other countries do because it fails in most of those other countries :rolleyes2:

um... you are wrong... look at welfare numbers under Bill Clinton as opposed to the presidencies before him... BTW... where are the failing healthcare systems (and please make it a real source)

Tetragrammaton
09-12-2008, 10:59 AM
We don't guarantee a univeral coverage like other countries do because it fails in most of those other countries :rolleyes2:

Second question: name one country with failing universal coverage.

FinFatale
09-12-2008, 11:08 AM
"Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare."

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8172

this article appeared recently in the los angelas times.

poornate
09-12-2008, 11:09 AM
The fact of the matter is, Democrats always want to give handouts....and alot of those people arent deserving of those handouts. Not to mention, they will raise taxes. With that being said, somebody needs to change this "Foreigner Tax Policy". It makes me sick knowing that people who move to this country are tax exempt for X amount of years. If you want to live in this nation, you should have to live with the tax burdens of this nation.

Generosity is a blessing and a virtue... It is not a matter of charity... it is a matter of doing and supporting what is right... I don't argue this from a political platform... I argue this from a sense of morality... Who are we to decide that being poor and getting sick should be a death sentence... Your argument is that some people don't deserve it? I disagree... i think the most corrupt person deserves a shot at life...

If the issue is abusers to you... how can you justify preventing the 97% of Americans a basic right to prevent the 3% who do not use public assistance from the same thing.... If it is a money matter to you... you do realize that, fairly quickly after implementation, universal healthcare will save you money, right?

Clipse
09-12-2008, 11:22 AM
Second question: name one country with failing universal coverage.
Canada.

Clipse
09-12-2008, 11:24 AM
Generosity is a blessing and a virtue... It is not a matter of charity... it is a matter of doing and supporting what is right... I don't argue this from a political platform... I argue this from a sense of morality... Who are we to decide that being poor and getting sick should be a death sentence... Your argument is that some people don't deserve it? I disagree... i think the most corrupt person deserves a shot at life...

If the issue is abusers to you... how can you justify preventing the 97% of Americans a basic right to prevent the 3% who do not use public assistance from the same thing.... If it is a money matter to you... you do realize that, fairly quickly after implementation, universal healthcare will save you money, right?
only 3%? :sidelol::sidelol: Move to the city and you will see where I'm coming from on this issue.

poornate
09-12-2008, 11:28 AM
only 3%? :sidelol::sidelol: Move to the city and you will see where I'm coming from on this issue.

Don't you live in Roanoke? City is a stretch, isn't it? :lol: i'm up around DC... i know the face of welfare... i know what it is, because it helped my family when I was growing up in a gang ridden ghetto...

3% of people nationally will use public assistance in the next 12 months...

Clipse
09-12-2008, 11:31 AM
Don't you live in Roanoke? City is a stretch, isn't it? :lol: i'm up around DC... i know the face of welfare... i know what it is, because it helped my family when I was growing up in a gang ridden ghetto...

3% of people nationally will use public assistance in the next 12 months...
Yes I do live in Roanoke, it is the 2nd worst city in Virginia behind Richmond according to the FBI, however I'm not basing this on Roanoke. I've lived in Pittsburgh, Richmond, Seattle, Miami, and Honolulu as well.

poornate
09-12-2008, 12:25 PM
Yes I do live in Roanoke, it is the 2nd worst city in Virginia behind Richmond according to the FBI, however I'm not basing this on Roanoke. I've lived in Pittsburgh, Richmond, Seattle, Miami, and Honolulu as well.

...2nd worst out of six.... The thing with Roanoke is that it is the only hub in about half a state... people come from the periphery for illicit activities... There is also a large socioeconomic factor to crime in Roanoke... it has low education rate, low gainful employment rates, low accrued welth numbers, a dearth of professional opportunities, a high poverty rate, and a serious pharmaceutical abuse problem in the surrounding areas... All that said... I think it is a charming little place and I wouldn't hesitate to walk the streets there anytime of the night...

Clipse
09-12-2008, 12:51 PM
...2nd worst out of six.... The thing with Roanoke is that it is the only hub in about half a state... people come from the periphery for illicit activities... There is also a large socioeconomic factor to crime in Roanoke... it has low education rate, low gainful employment rates, low accrued welth numbers, a dearth of professional opportunities, a high poverty rate, and a serious pharmaceutical abuse problem in the surrounding areas... All that said... I think it is a charming little place and I wouldn't hesitate to walk the streets there anytime of the night...
I'm still trying to figure out why this was even brought up in the 1st place :unsure: Yes it is a decent place to live, that's why I live here. I would never go live in New York City or some other big city. It's just like every other city in the country, there's bad neighborhoods and there's good neighborhoods. Now let's get back to discussing why Obama would be a horrible president :wink:

Edit- Also, I see you mentioned there is also a large socioeconomic factor to Roanoke's crime, Aren't those pretty much the reason why any other neighborhood in any other city are full of crime? At any rate, this is a thread on Universal Healthcare, not where Roanokes crime comes from.

poornate
09-12-2008, 01:11 PM
Canada.

I was looking for some numbers on Canada and found this... it is just an opinion, but it is excellent and the truth as I know it from my family and friends in a single-payer health care system (not all in Canada)...

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-health-care-part-i

Clipse
09-12-2008, 01:39 PM
I was looking for some numbers on Canada and found this... it is just an opinion, but it is excellent and the truth as I know it from my family and friends in a single-payer health care system (not all in Canada)...

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-health-care-part-i
Not going to bother reading it. Who knows how credible it is. It's a blog, without any evidence, and like you said, it's all opinion. Either way Canada is much different than the US.

With that being said, I am going to leave this whole Healthcare argument at this. You and me both know that there are positives and negatives to Universal Healthcare. That is fact. However, it is strictly opinion as to which outweighs the other. It all depends on who you're voting for. If you're voting for Obama, then most likely you think the Pros outweigh the Cons. And if you vote for McCain then most likely you think the opposite. I'm voting for McCain and I think the Cons outweigh the Pro's. You can't influence me to think otherwise just like I can't influence you to think otherwise. Guess there's no need to keep arguing over something that is opinion not fact, meaning neither of us are right.

poornate
09-12-2008, 01:44 PM
Not going to bother reading it. Who knows how credible it is. It's a blog, without any evidence, and I've seen too many untrue blogs to go ahead and believe anything that site has to say. Then again, it could have some negatives to Universal Healthcare on there as well, I dont know, It's too long to read:unsure:. Either way Canada is much different than the US.

With that being said, I am going to leave this whole Healthcare argument at this. You and me both know that there are positives and negatives to Universal Healthcare. That is fact. However, it is strictly opinion as to which outweighs the other. It all depends on who you're voting for. If you're voting for Obama, then most likely you think the Pros outweigh the Cons. And if you vote for McCain that most likely you think the opposite. I'm voting for McCain and I think the Cons outweigh the Pro's. You can't influence me to think otherwise just like I can't influence you to think otherwise. Guess there's no need to keep arguing over something that is opinion not fact, meaning neither of us are right.

You can close your mind... but the facts are that our healthcare is a disgrace in comparison to other nations... Why do YOU think that is and what differences do the highest ranked nations have?... I'll give you a hint...

We are behind Oman... the United Arab Emirates... and yes, Canada... by more than a half a dozen spots...

poornate
09-12-2008, 01:45 PM
BTW... if a page is to long to read... eh... You should read it... it's very good.

Clipse
09-12-2008, 01:57 PM
You can close your mind... but the facts are that our healthcare is a disgrace in comparison to other nations... Why do YOU think that is and what differences do the highest ranked nations have?... I'll give you a hint...

We are behind Oman... the United Arab Emirates... and yes, Canada... by more than a half a dozen spots...
It's a disgrace only because you and your fellow Obamamaniacs think it's a disgrace?:rolleyes2: No it is not a disgrace, it is in need of some tinkering, I'll agree, but Universal Healthcare...:shakeno:

With that being said. Obama's Universal Healthcare plan will still leave about 20-25 million without healthcare. However the way I feel is, if you can't afford health care, and you get hurt accidently, then you should be taken care of. However if you weren't hurt accidently, or you are simply trying to abuse the system (like many of that "3%" who recieve welfare do) then no, you should get off your *** and get a job to pay for it.

Now with that being said, isn't Obama's plan only going to cover the basics? I could be wrong, but people will still need to pay for medicine, and any other extras.

Now, with that being said. I still think Universal Healthcare is a bad idea. Like I said before, of course it needs tweaking, but Universal is not a good idea. If anything needs to be fixed, its the Prescription Drug policies and Illegal Drug policies.

Clipse
09-12-2008, 01:58 PM
BTW... if a page is to long to read... eh... You should read it... it's very good.
No it's not that the page is too long to read, its that it is referring to Canada, Canada and the United States of America are far too different for that blog to be relevant.

poornate
09-12-2008, 02:03 PM
Single-payer healthcare is a step in the right direction though... you have to unlock the door before you can sling it open... and you are right... it covers the basics... that is what i am advocating for... i am no blind idealist... i know you don't really know me, being new in here... and I am for Obama, because he represents, in this election, the best choice, IMO, for the nation and my family... The basics being covered will allow people to then choose to supplement their coverage if they wish.... I estimate that supplemental coverage and the increased tax costs would allow the average family to cut health care costs in half... it reduces the overheard of doctors, and lessens the chances of lengthy and costly litigation... It just stabilizes the national need... and it is cheaper... and in a brief amount of time would become more efficient...

It takes a lot of the profit out of health... that is the best part... it encourages prevention...

poornate
09-12-2008, 02:04 PM
No it's not that the page is too long to read, its that it is referring to Canada, Canada and the United States of America are far too different for that blog to be relevant.

It is about both... from the perspective of a dual citizen who lives under both systems...

Tetragrammaton
09-12-2008, 02:07 PM
Canada.

Do you have a link to an article about people dying en masse, a movement to vote down the coverage, or just a "friend" who used to live in Canada, like everyone else who likes to argue over their system?

Clipse
09-12-2008, 02:07 PM
and I am for Obama, because he represents, in this election, the best choice, IMO, for the nation and my family...
You nearly hit the nail on the head there, however you're very off. For the nation?:sidelol::sidelol: No disrespect but you're family isn't the whole nation. I'm voting for McCain because his policies suit my family more than Obama's does. However I'm not going to say "for the nation" because I'd rather not be wrong. Not everyone is the same so not every politician's policies suits every person.

Clipse
09-12-2008, 02:10 PM
Do you have a link to an article about people dying en masse, a movement to vote down the coverage, or just a "friend" who used to live in Canada, like everyone else who likes to argue over their system?
No I don't have a link, like I have stated time and time again. America is much different than Canada, therefore it is IRRELEVENT as to what goes on there with their healthcare. But I understand alot of you democrats only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear :rolleyes2:

Eshlemon
09-12-2008, 02:21 PM
One of the biggest problem with our health care system and something that the I don't think the Bush administration had done enough about it is corporate drug fraud...at our expense and people again, abusing a system making it more expensive for others who aren't.

Take France for example.......there the doctors don't make near as much money as they do here, the medical schools are difficult to attend but they are tuition free so the doctors don't step out with a heavy burden to begin with. Practice liability/malpractice insurance is also much cheaper thanks to a tort-averse legal system .All doctors in France participate in the nation's public health insurance, Sécurité Sociale.
French legislators also stopped the insurance industry from resisting by letting already existing insurers to administer its new healthcare funds. Private health insurers are also central to the system as supplemental insurers who cover patient expenses that are not paid for by Sécurité Sociale. I think around 90 percent of the population in France carry extended insurance, so the insurance companies provide that. All sounds great however it has the problem of paying for itself...and French reformers' number one priority is to move health insurance financing away from payroll and wage levies because they does effect ( or is that affect?? DK??) employers' willingness to hire. Instead, France is turning toward broad taxes on earned and unearned income alike to pay for healthcare.
France has one of the better system between itself , Canada and Britan........IMO BUT I am no advocate of this system.........it's not what some crack it up to be........

For those arguing UHC makes us a socialized medicine, we already are. 45% of healtcare in the USA is public funded, a far cry from the 70-30 that occurs in UHC. But as stated above UHC's in Europe are having financial problems needing more privatization because they have been getting older...which we'll be drawing closer to them as the boomers retire. So a direct implementation of Europe into the USA only means we'll be facing their current problems.

France is probably the way UHC would work best if at all in the US on a national level. A multu-payer system instead of an all encompasing single payer. But we would never have all the aspects , such as Doctors and Lawyers agreeing to lower salaries and end tort respectively.

I don't disagree increasing costs need to be managed to make coverage and healthcare more affordable for all. But knocking out the existing system completely and replacing it with others isn't going to work. Besides the uncerntainy of comparable results, if you cut out a trillion dollars in the economy as proponents desire you are going to have consequences that would make the current sub-primes and mortgage problems seem like a paper cut.

We currently have individual states beginning to implement UHC programs. Perhaps we should wait to find out the results of these experiments before making any national committment.

Clipse
09-12-2008, 02:26 PM
For those arguing UHC makes us a socialized medicine, we already are. 45% of healtcare in the USA is public funded, a far cry from the 70-30 that occurs in UHC. But as stated above UHC's in Europe are having financial problems needing more privatization because they have been getting older...which we'll be drawing closer to them as the boomers retire. So a direct implementation of Europe into the USA only means we'll be facing their current problems.

France is probably the way UHC would work best if at all in the US on a national level. A multu-payer system instead of an all encompasing single payer. But we would never have all the aspects , such as Doctors and Lawyers agreeing to lower salaries and end tort respectively.

I don't disagree increasing costs need to be managed to make coverage and healthcare more affordable for all. But knocking out the existing system completely and replacing it with others isn't going to work. Besides the uncerntainy of comparable results, if you cut out a trillion dollars in the economy as proponents desire you are going to have consequences that would make the current sub-primes and mortgage problems seem like a paper cut.

We currently have individual states beginning to implement UHC programs. Perhaps we should wait to find out the results of these experiments before making any national committment.
Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

poornate
09-12-2008, 02:42 PM
You nearly hit the nail on the head there, however you're very off. For the nation?:sidelol::sidelol: No disrespect but you're family isn't the whole nation. I'm voting for McCain because his policies suit my family more than Obama's does. However I'm not going to say "for the nation" because I'd rather not be wrong. Not everyone is the same so not every politician's policies suits every person.

But we are representative of the nation... we live near a city, we are a family of four, my wife and I both work, we have two children, we are in good health.... Sounds average to me... and we are struggling... and I tell you now, we are fanatically fiscally responsible... BTW... when I say for "my family" I am working for your family, too, even if you may disagree with my opinions... I will err on the side of the politician who seeks to do right by the most people and do the least harm....

Tetragrammaton
09-12-2008, 03:01 PM
No I don't have a link, like I have stated time and time again. America is much different than Canada, therefore it is IRRELEVENT as to what goes on there with their healthcare. But I understand alot of you democrats only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear :rolleyes2:

We aren't on Hannity and Colmes, no need to talk like this. I didn't ask you to compare the system to America at all. I asked you to provide data indicating that health care in Canada is a failure.

poornate
09-12-2008, 03:07 PM
We aren't on Hannity and Colmes, no need to talk like this. I didn't ask you to compare the system to America at all. I asked you to provide data indicating that health care in Canada is a failure.

...even if RR refuses WZ, you should read the link I put in here... i really enjoyed it...