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FinFatale
09-15-2008, 09:03 PM
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari has apparently revealed (http://www.nypost.com/seven/09152008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/obama_tried_to_stall_gis_iraq_withdrawal_129150.htm?page=0) that the centerpiece of Barack Obama's conversation with Iraqi leaders in July was his hope of delaying the draw-down of American military forces in Iraq. Zebari's recounts that Obama "asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington." Obama also reportedly insisted that Congress steer negotiations on the time-table of troops withdrawal, rather than the Bush administration, which he described as being in a "state of weakness and political confusion."

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/09/15/traitor-obama-betrays-soldiers/

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09152008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/obama_tried_to_stall_gis_iraq_withdrawal_129150.htm?page=0

now before anyone jumps me, I didn't say this is TRUE. I will be looking into some information to either support or debunk this.

Wildbill3
09-15-2008, 09:47 PM
I'm sorry maybe i'm out of the pofo loop but I just don't see a hotbutton topic? Thank you for citing multiple sources and trying to bring lively discussion to the pofo.

FinFatale
09-15-2008, 10:05 PM
http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/iraq-war/22684/as-if-obama-doesnt-have-enough-problems/

Wildbill3
09-15-2008, 10:08 PM
so, i'm obviously missing something, fill me in obama said one thing about troop pullouts and now he is saying if he is president, he'll likely do something that goes against a previous statement he made?

FinFatale
09-15-2008, 10:18 PM
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari has apparently revealed (http://www.nypost.com/seven/09152008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/obama_tried_to_stall_gis_iraq_withdrawal_129150.htm?page=0) that the centerpiece of Barack Obama's conversation with Iraqi leaders in July was his hope of delaying the draw-down of American military forces in Iraq. Zebari's recounts that Obama "asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington." Obama also reportedly insisted that Congress steer negotiations on the time-table of troops withdrawal, rather than the Bush administration, which he described as being in a "state of weakness and political confusion."

if Senator Obama indeed did this then he is in violation of The Logan Act,

Logan Act

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act#searchInput)
The Logan Act is a United States federal law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_law) that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments. It was passed in 1799 and last amended in 1994. Violation of the Logan Act is a felony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony), punishable under federal law with imprisonment of up to three years.
The text of the Act is broad and is addressed at any attempt of a US citizen to conduct foreign relations without authority. However, there is no record of any convictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction) or even prosecutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution) under the Logan Act.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act#cite_note-Seitzinger-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act#cite_note-HCSOC-1)


However as I stated in my first post I am NOT stating it's the truth. I think that Senator Obama does indeed need to respond to this and perhaps Iraq's Foreign Minister shall as well. If it is true then It's my opinion that it is indeed a ' hot button' topic.
s

Wildbill3
09-15-2008, 10:23 PM
well I dont' see what a "changing of the guard" should have to do with planned troop pullout (does that sound sexual to anyone else but me?). Honestly why delay it? So obviously if he did say this It was absolutely a stupid move, as one, the approval still goes through congress, and two why say anything that can be devisive this close to the election?

phinfan3411
09-15-2008, 10:23 PM
Let me see if I can explain, instead of working in the troops best interest, Obama wanted to DELAY the drawdown until HE, AND ONLY HE, could get credit for it.


Surprise, surprise, surprise (Gomer Pyle), I am sure, we were not supposed to find out, and the election is not going the way he planned.

IF this is true, IF, it shows he is NOTHING, AND I MEAN NOTHING, but a first class scum, no spin possible, if this is true, makes me sick.

Wildbill3
09-15-2008, 10:40 PM
Ok, if true I follow you 3411... but seriously, if he wins the election wouldn't there be plenty of time to claim credit on things? hell if he helps get the price of gas lowered he'll be popular enough.

phinfan3411
09-15-2008, 10:42 PM
I missed one thing, if the troops started to withdraw BEFORE the election, why would electing him be as important.....either way, if it is true, shows his TRUE colors.

phinfan3411
09-15-2008, 10:44 PM
Ok, Dolphin Diva, whats the story on this, is it true, or made up stuff?

FinFatale
09-15-2008, 10:49 PM
Ok, if true I follow you 3411... but seriously, if he wins the election wouldn't there be plenty of time to claim credit on things? hell if he helps get the price of gas lowered he'll be popular enough.


Yes I suppose so but if this does prove to be TRUE then he has some explaining to do and it will impact the election for sure as far as the independant vote. I do believe that anyone that is liberal is going to vote for Senator Obama no matter what and anyone that is republican as well has decided their vote but it will make a difference in the independant vote. I can't see a man in his postion doing that and I am a bit suspicious this may be just a rumor but time will tell. I am sure his camp will react to this. I think McCain's will as well.

MDFINFAN
09-15-2008, 10:58 PM
Hmmm, I find only right wing media with this story..and the fact that this smells of politics gives me great plause...because at the time Obama was there, the concensus was Iraq agreed with him about a troop withdrawal....which put mcCain and the Wh in a hissy.. Now an official from Iraq said this...hmmm, only ppl who really want to believe will bite on it immediately without verifying it.. I think I'll wait for more evidence.. that does not mean this didn't happen, but right now, it smells like a setup...and anyone who thinks Obama is not for the troops is stretching the truth of what we've seen of him a loooong way... think intelligently before you respond to this...not with your bais heads but with a clear thinking one.. Just think about this story and sources before you respond.. only right wing media.. sounds more like the underground smears we've come to see a lot in this election..I'm sure there be more as the election gets closer.. If you defend palin on a lot of this stuff, you should step back on this one too.

FinFatale
09-15-2008, 11:04 PM
Hmmm, I find on right wing media with this story..and the fact that this smells of politics gives me great plause...because at the time Obama was there, the concensus was Iraq agreed with him about a troop withdrawal....which put mcCain and the Wh in a hissy.. Now an official from Iraq said this...hmmm, only ppl who really want to believe will bite on it immediately without verifying it.. I think I'll wait for more evidence.. that does not mean this didn't happen, but right now, it smells like a setup...and anyone who thinks Obama is not for the troops is stretching the truth of what we've seen of him a loooong way... think intelligently before you respond to this...not with your bais heads but with a clear thinking one.. Just think about this story and sources before you respond.. only right wing media.. sounds more like the underground smears we've come to see a lot in this election..I'm sure there be more as the election gets closer.. If you defend palin on a lot of this stuff, you should step back on this one too.

I agree with MD......( I hope you were sitting down!! ) lol.....anyway, I think that more verification is needed for sure and I am currently looking for more. I will be curious to see if Senator Obama's camp responds to this accusation. What do you think?

phinfan3411
09-15-2008, 11:05 PM
I have said IF it is true. You underestimate what it would mean if it is.

FinFatale
09-15-2008, 11:06 PM
I have said IF it is true. You underestimate what it would mean if it is.


Oh it's going to be a HUGE mistake on Senator Obama's part IF this is indeed true...........did I say HUGE?????????

FinFatale
09-15-2008, 11:09 PM
Ok, Dolphin Diva, whats the story on this, is it true, or made up stuff?


really I don't know. I am looking into a few things myself. Its hard to decifer between the made up and the true sometimes, then you have the articles that take on ounce of truth and make it ten pounds......you know what I mean but as I said in a previous post it's it is TRUE it isn't going to go down well........

Gonzo
09-15-2008, 11:15 PM
I'll wait for more verification. I just don't see why he would do it. He'll benefit just as much from such a draw-down before his election as he would after it (of course, all assuming he wins). He just has to bring up the fact that he has supported such a move for years and Bush and Co. are changing their stance.

poornate
09-16-2008, 07:18 AM
Let me see if I can explain, instead of working in the troops best interest, Obama wanted to DELAY the drawdown until HE, AND ONLY HE, could get credit for it.


Surprise, surprise, surprise (Gomer Pyle), I am sure, we were not supposed to find out, and the election is not going the way he planned.

IF this is true, IF, it shows he is NOTHING, AND I MEAN NOTHING, but a first class scum, no spin possible, if this is true, makes me sick.

.... I agree with waiting for a new administration before troops are drawn down in iraq.... i don't care who wins the election on this point.... either new administration should be in place before it begins.... It is a big shift and shouldn't be started by the outgoing president because whatever course is taken will probably have to be followed for the next 18-24 months and it should be a cohesive plan implemented by one set of leaders...

That's not saying anything about whether Obama did or did not do this...that's just my belief on how the troops should be drawn out.... This really would remind me of Reagan and the Iranian Hostage Crisis... if it is true....

MDFINFAN
09-16-2008, 11:11 AM
.... I agree with waiting for a new administration before troops are drawn down in iraq.... i don't care who wins the election on this point.... either new administration should be in place before it begins.... It is a big shift and shouldn't be started by the outgoing president because whatever course is taken will probably have to be followed for the next 18-24 months and it should be a cohesive plan implemented by one set of leaders...

That's not saying anything about whether Obama did or did not do this...that's just my belief on how the troops should be drawn out.... This really would remind me of Reagan and the Iranian Hostage Crisis... if it is true....

Poornate, we've got to do lunch, I like the way you think, but if I was a soldier in Iraq, your thoughts probably wouldn't impress me too much..:lol:
I work in Crystal city, are you anywhere close to that?

Dolphan7
09-16-2008, 11:50 AM
If I was one who has been clamoring for troop pullout for this long, it would be a consistant message to want them home as soon as possible, not held up due to a shift change.

phinfan3411
09-16-2008, 12:33 PM
.... I agree with waiting for a new administration before troops are drawn down in iraq.... i don't care who wins the election on this point.... either new administration should be in place before it begins.... It is a big shift and shouldn't be started by the outgoing president because whatever course is taken will probably have to be followed for the next 18-24 months and it should be a cohesive plan implemented by one set of leaders...

That's not saying anything about whether Obama did or did not do this...that's just my belief on how the troops should be drawn out.... This really would remind me of Reagan and the Iranian Hostage Crisis... if it is true....


Number one, I never knew that Reagan delaying the release of the hostages was anything more than speculation, so this is true? If it is true, my opinion would change somewhat, on a President I considered top notch.

Number two, are you saying you think it is ok for a Presidential candidate, to be masquerading as a "lets get out of Iraq basically ASAP", when in reality he is working behind the scenes to make sure everything stays put until after the election??

If that is correct, I know not to try and figure you out anymore.

FinFatale
09-16-2008, 12:37 PM
If indeed this is true than Senator Obama was doing so without authority which is against the laws of this country.He would have been attempting as a US citizen to conduct foreign relations without authority.

FinFatale
09-16-2008, 12:47 PM
Number one, I never knew that Reagan delaying the release of the hostages was anything more than speculation, so this is true? If it is true, my opinion would change somewhat, on a President I considered top notch.

Number two, are you saying you think it is ok for a Presidential candidate, to be masquerading as a "lets get out of Iraq basically ASAP", when in reality he is working behind the scenes to make sure everything stays put until after the election??

If that is correct, I know not to try and figure you out anymore.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/223/


Ad misleading about Iran hostage crisis

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif
Rudy Giuliani invokes his tough-on-terrorism image with a television advertisement about the Iran hostage crisis. He gets most of the facts correct but his insinuation that President Reagan deserves all the credit for the hostagesí release is wrong.

milldog
09-16-2008, 12:53 PM
Here's all you need to know on this boys;
"This is Amir Tehari who wrote this. He's the man who spread the lie about Iran forcing Jews to wear yellow stars. Amir Tehari is one of the most dishonest neo-cons on the planet. That a respectable conservative blog like Hot Air would even treat this seriously is a sign of desperation."

phinfan3411
09-16-2008, 01:06 PM
No offense, but looking at this logically, which camp would YOU think is more desperate? The one that has been favored to win all along, or the one that now with less than two months left has the lead??????

There are articles all over, and posted on this forum about how DEMS are upset with Obama for not being able to finish this, don't believe me look yourself.

phinfan3411
09-16-2008, 02:02 PM
I just heard that a spokesperson from Obama's campaign said it was a lie, and then pretty much confirmed he had asked them to wait until after the election????? Isn't that what the writer said?? I will try to get a quote or a link.

poornate
09-16-2008, 02:04 PM
Number one, I never knew that Reagan delaying the release of the hostages was anything more than speculation, so this is true? If it is true, my opinion would change somewhat, on a President I considered top notch.

Number two, are you saying you think it is ok for a Presidential candidate, to be masquerading as a "lets get out of Iraq basically ASAP", when in reality he is working behind the scenes to make sure everything stays put until after the election??

If that is correct, I know not to try and figure you out anymore.

The Reagan/Hostage item is still debatable. It is, for your information, widely held in academic circles as fact, or at the least, partially true. there is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence and a host of people who have volunteered information regarding William Casey, Reagan's campaign manager, arranging a deal with the Iranians to ship them arms in exchange for not releasing the hostages until Reagan was in office. That has not been completely proven. what is incontrovertibly true is that mere days after Reagan was in office we began shipping Iran weapons through Israel. It begs the question, why? Why would we do that? What deal was in place, and who made it, because there would have been no reason for us to arm Khomeini and his followers.

As for the withdrawal question.... i don't find them exclusive... i would support there being no draw down until the new administration is in, regardless of what the new administration is... It is a continuity and safety issue. I mean, you are talking about 6 weeks... not 6 months... If a new president is going to have to live with a withdrawal plan for the first half of his term, he should be involved with the planning and implementation of it... i don't care who you or anyone else supports in the new presidency... It is an accepted fact that the current administration is prone to errors in judgment... I say hold on a little bit....

Last point.... If this is true it is not something I agree with is practice, but in this situation, it is something I agree with as far as the stance on the issue... But i have to point something out... if you all think this is an egregious error and assumptive of rank... It is nothing to me compared to McCain's statement about Russia and Georgia that PROCEEDED any statement from the Whitehouse... McCain went on television and proposed that America adopt one of the most radical shifts in foreign policy since WWII and it passed by with only a blip on the radar.... That is overstepping boundaries more so than this is, imho.... He insinuated a war stance, proposed booting Russia out of the G-8.... that is radicalism and all the trappings of a hawkish mentality... I was shocked... i feel like very few people took notice of the forward and aggressive stance he took for the nation... under NO authority...

poornate
09-16-2008, 02:11 PM
Poornate, we've got to do lunch, I like the way you think, but if I was a soldier in Iraq, your thoughts probably wouldn't impress me too much..:lol:
I work in Crystal city, are you anywhere close to that?

...shoot... you can hop the Yellow line up to Gallery Place.... we can meet at the beer garden..... sounds like a date...

I used to work up in Arlington quite a bit.... now I'm pretty much out in the sticks.... I'm down by Warrenton.... Know anybody who wants a commuter house with ten acres? You find me a buyer and I'll buy you lunch every day for a year.... :hi5:

Dolphan7
09-16-2008, 02:41 PM
The Reagan/Hostage item is still debatable. It is, for your information, widely held in academic circles as fact, or at the least, partially true. there is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence and a host of people who have volunteered information regarding William Casey, Reagan's campaign manager, arranging a deal with the Iranians to ship them arms in exchange for not releasing the hostages until Reagan was in office. That has not been completely proven. what is incontrovertibly true is that mere days after Reagan was in office we began shipping Iran weapons through Israel. It begs the question, why? Why would we do that? What deal was in place, and who made it, because there would have been no reason for us to arm Khomeini and his followers.

As for the withdrawal question.... i don't find them exclusive... i would support there being no draw down until the new administration is in, regardless of what the new administration is... It is a continuity and safety issue. I mean, you are talking about 6 weeks... not 6 months... If a new president is going to have to live with a withdrawal plan for the first half of his term, he should be involved with the planning and implementation of it... i don't care who you or anyone else supports in the new presidency... It is an accepted fact that the current administration is prone to errors in judgment... I say hold on a little bit....

Last point.... If this is true it is not something I agree with is practice, but in this situation, it is something I agree with as far as the stance on the issue... But i have to point something out... if you all think this is an egregious error and assumptive of rank... It is nothing to me compared to McCain's statement about Russia and Georgia that PROCEEDED any statement from the Whitehouse... McCain went on television and proposed that America adopt one of the most radical shifts in foreign policy since WWII and it passed by with only a blip on the radar.... That is overstepping boundaries more so than this is, imho.... He insinuated a war stance, proposed booting Russia out of the G-8.... that is radicalism and all the trappings of a hawkish mentality... I was shocked... i feel like very few people took notice of the forward and aggressive stance he took for the nation... under NO authority...I find this bolded part hard to believe. Are you referring to the Nation of Israel helping us ship arms to an Arab country that hates Israel?

On another note, McCain wasn't talking to any head of state when he made those comments. He was talking to the American People on a campaign speech and in an election year.

poornate
09-16-2008, 03:03 PM
I find this bolded part hard to believe. Are you referring to the Nation of Israel helping us ship arms to an Arab country that hates Israel?


This is taken from a US Department of State memorandum in 1986 that became declassified in 1999... there was even an official approval to sell military hardware of US origin from Israel to Iran.... even though no sale was officially approved... it is FACT that items were sold to Iran until at least, at Israel's admission, 1983, that were military supplies made by United States firms... (in fact, Lockheed Martin sent technicians to Iran during the Iran Contra era to repair fighter jet GPS systems on Iranian planes with English passports arranged by the American State department)... these original sales proceeded the Iran Contra mess.... and showed Iran Contra as less of a policy anomaly than a continuation of a previous relationship between Reagan's administration and the Khomeini regime... throwing gas on the fire as to which administration, Carter's or Reagan's, really conducted an "October Surprise" in 1980

Dolphan7
09-16-2008, 03:27 PM
This is taken from a US Department of State memorandum in 1986 that became declassified in 1999... there was even an official approval to sell military hardware of US origin from Israel to Iran.... even though no sale was officially approved... it is FACT that items were sold to Iran until at least, at Israel's admission, 1983, that were military supplies made by United States firms... (in fact, Lockheed Martin sent technicians to Iran during the Iran Contra era to repair fighter jet GPS systems on Iranian planes with English passports arranged by the American State department)... these original sales proceeded the Iran Contra mess.... and showed Iran Contra as less of a policy anomaly than a continuation of a previous relationship between Reagan's administration and the Khomeini regime... throwing gas on the fire as to which administration, Carter's or Reagan's, really conducted an "October Surprise" in 1980Ok I didn't think so. Thanks for the clarification.

poornate
09-16-2008, 03:48 PM
Ok I didn't think so. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm sorry... where in this did I err to make you think that it wasn't plain fact.... the State department memorandum says that the United States government allowed, supported, encouraged, and supplied Israel with arms to sell to Iran... starting only days into Reagan's presidency....

Not only did they do it.... but they even recorded it officially as legislation... There is no arguing this.... it is historic and oft mentioned fact.

poornate
09-16-2008, 03:50 PM
Ok I didn't think so. Thanks for the clarification.

I am confounded by this statement... what do you mean "I didn't think so."... where did I disagree with my original statement... where did I retreat from the fact that the United States channeled arms to Iran during the first years of Reagan's presidency?

Dolphan7
09-16-2008, 03:53 PM
I am confounded by this statement... what do you mean "I didn't think so."... where did I disagree with my original statement... where did I retreat from the fact that the United States channeled arms to Iran during the first years of Reagan's presidency?It does not appear that this happened through Israel as what was first proposed.

poornate
09-16-2008, 04:00 PM
I'm sorry i wasn't clear enough... this DID happen through Israel.

Dolphan7
09-16-2008, 04:53 PM
I'm sorry i wasn't clear enough... this DID happen through Israel.
Simply site your sources and let me review.

Eshlemon
09-16-2008, 04:57 PM
Need to provide a lot more info and proof (any actually) on this for me to come even close to believing this at all of Senator Obama.

idaho
09-16-2008, 05:44 PM
However, there is no record of any convictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction) or even prosecutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution) under the Logan Act.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act#cite_note-Seitzinger-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act#cite_note-HCSOC-1)

That should tell you something. Other wise we would have had to prosecute Regan for the return of the hostages from Iran.

In a Madrid hotel in late July 1980, an important Iranian cleric, Mehdi Karrubi, who is now the speaker of the Iranian Parliament, allegedly met with Mr. Casey [Reagan's campaign manager and later his Director of the CIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Casey)] and a U.S. intelligence officer who was operating outside authority. The same group met again several weeks later.... From Oct. 15 to Oct. 20, events came to a head in a series of meetings in several hotels in Paris, involving members of the Reagan-Bush campaign and high-level Iranian and Israeli representatives. Accounts of these meetings and the exact number of participants vary considerably among the more than 15 sources who claim direct or indirect knowledge of some aspect of them. There is, however, widespread agreement on three points: William Casey was a key participant: the Iranian representatives agreed that the hostages would not be released prior to the Presidential election on Nov. 4; in return, Israel would serve as a conduit for arms and spare parts to Iran. At least five of the sources who say they were in Paris in connection with these meetings insist that George Bush was present for at least one meeting. Three of the sources say that they saw him there...

phinfan3411
09-16-2008, 06:18 PM
I do not know how to bring through the quotes, there are many of these articles that essentially say the same thing, am I mistaken, or does this Wendy Miorgi basically say Obama did it???
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hi9TDNHvuBZpFsO8ZbiFYsnbIl3A

FinFatale
09-16-2008, 06:22 PM
But Obama's national security spokeswoman Wendy Morigi said Taheri's article bore "as much resemblance to the truth as a McCain campaign commercial."
In fact, Obama had told the Iraqis that they should not rush through a "Strategic Framework Agreement" governing the future of US forces until after President George W. Bush leaves office, she said.
In the face of resistance from Bush, the Democrat has long said that any such agreement must be reviewed by the US Congress as it would tie a future administration's hands on Iraq.
"Barack Obama has never urged a delay in negotiations, nor has he urged a delay in immediately beginning a responsible drawdown of our combat brigades," Morigi said.



sounds like Senator Obama's camp is doing a bit of doubling talking itself. I see your confusion PhinFan . I am going to keep checking for more articles. I don't think the Senator Obama camp is going to admit anything anyway..........as wouldn't Senator McCain's if this were him......

poornate
09-17-2008, 07:57 AM
Simply site your sources and let me review.

Mainly I was citing State Department memorandum "U.S.-Israel Discussions on Arms Sales to Iran".... It is found in the "Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran/Contra Affair" which I cannot find a free Internet source for... I did go find the report online... I admit to internalizing a lot of this from a speech I heard Lee Hamilton give a few years back at the "Global Conference on Democracy"... The arm sales themselves are widely documented.... Estimates were at $500 billion a year to Iran from Israel during 1981-82.... There are a zillion paid newspaper sources of archives.... Ariel Sharon admitted the sales (partially... some munitions and fighter jet parts) in a TV interview in May of 1982..

phinfan3411
09-17-2008, 12:20 PM
Maybe skipping Reagan for a moment, could one of the Obama supporters comment on the statement by Wendy Miorgi? Is that correct? Did she just agree that he DID in fact try to stall the process?

Gonzo
09-17-2008, 12:37 PM
Maybe skipping Reagan for a moment, could one of the Obama supporters comment on the statement by Wendy Miorgi? Is that correct? Did she just agree that he DID in fact try to stall the process?
Looks pretty clear to me that they are urging that they don't rush the process just to get it done before Bush leaves. Organizing a proper draw-down will take longer than that and will involve the Congress, yes, into the next administration, regardless of whether it is McCain or Obama.

I don't see the issue here. Rushing a plan through just to get credit before leaving office seems more detrimental to troops.

phinfan3411
09-17-2008, 12:42 PM
Why doesn't he admit this to the troops then? Aside from the fact that it is a FELONY under the Logan act is it not?????

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 12:44 PM
Why doesn't he admit this to the troops then? Aside from the fact that it is a FELONY under the Logan act is it not?????


Senator Obama, if he infact did this, had no right to act as a representative on our foreign affairs in his capacity as a candiate for president.

Gonzo
09-17-2008, 12:46 PM
Why doesn't he admit this to the troops then? Aside from the fact that it is a FELONY under the Logan act is it not?????
Grasping at straws. These weren't negotiations. As for the troops, as a former soldier and friend of many current soldiers (and brother of a Marine returning on Oct. 4), I can tell you that they would certainly prefer a well-planned draw-down over a rush job.

phinfan3411
09-17-2008, 01:01 PM
As a former soldier myself, I would be surprised to hear this, after what he says publicly.

Gonzo
09-17-2008, 01:05 PM
As a former soldier myself, I would be surprised to hear this, after what he says publicly.
Surprised to hear that they don't want a rush job?

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 01:32 PM
Mainly I was citing State Department memorandum "U.S.-Israel Discussions on Arms Sales to Iran".... It is found in the "Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran/Contra Affair" which I cannot find a free Internet source for... I did go find the report online... I admit to internalizing a lot of this from a speech I heard Lee Hamilton give a few years back at the "Global Conference on Democracy"... The arm sales themselves are widely documented.... Estimates were at $500 billion a year to Iran from Israel during 1981-82.... There are a zillion paid newspaper sources of archives.... Ariel Sharon admitted the sales (partially... some munitions and fighter jet parts) in a TV interview in May of 1982..I just find it hard to understand why Israel would do such a thing. I can understand back then, but I seriously doubt that practice continues today. I know you aren't saying that.

phinfan3411
09-17-2008, 01:36 PM
Surprised to hear that they don't want a rush job?

You are wording it to your liking, do you think many soldiers would be happy to here they are starting a withdrawl process today? He wants them to wait for his own gain. Nobody says they should rush the actual agreement.

Gonzo
09-17-2008, 01:47 PM
You are wording it to your liking, do you think many soldiers would be happy to here they are starting a withdrawl process today? He wants them to wait for his own gain. Nobody says they should rush the actual agreement.
How so? You need to clarify what you would be surprised to hear. If anybody is wording anything to their liking it's those trying to turn what Obama says into sexist, ageist, treacherous nonsense.

I already said what I think, that they would be unhappy with a rush job, which is exactly what it would be if they try to push this through before the end of Bush's term.

Obama hasn't won the election yet and it's too close for him to assume he will. It seems pretty clear that he wants the process to not be rushed, not halted. Saying he wants it stopped is wording it to your liking.

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 01:53 PM
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari has apparently revealed (http://www.nypost.com/seven/09152008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/obama_tried_to_stall_gis_iraq_withdrawal_129150.htm?page=0) that the centerpiece of Barack Obama's conversation with Iraqi leaders in July was his hope of delaying the draw-down of American military forces in Iraq. Zebari's recounts that Obama "asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington." Obama also reportedly insisted that Congress steer negotiations on the time-table of troops withdrawal, rather than the Bush administration, which he described as being in a "state of weakness and political confusion."

This is what was said that Senator Obama said.......delay an agreement...where is the " slowing down " thing????

poornate
09-17-2008, 01:53 PM
I just find it hard to understand why Israel would do such a thing. I can understand back then, but I seriously doubt that practice continues today. I know you aren't saying that.

I doubt that practice exists today... officially or under sanction... but that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that there is precedent... Why, then, would Israel do what they did? It is a widely held belief that it was due to an agreement reached by Regan with Khomeini regarding the release of the hostages... I promise you this... as the academic world begins to polish the superimposed luster off of the Reagan presidency, which has been happening for about 5 years, there will be a lot of new information available regarding this kind of thing. i wouldn't be the least bit shocked to see the next decade bring an investigative commission to the very subject we are discussing.

as for the topic at hand... Obama, if this is true, should not have been involved in any negotiations regarding foreign policy. I do agree that a draw down in forces should not begin until the new administration is in place, whoever comprises said administration, because their term will be responsible for the efficiency, direction, safety, and potential fall out associated with the withdrawal. I don't believe that a new administration should be crippled by what they cannot control, and that potential exists. We are extracting our nation from a multi-layered and dangerous situation and there should be cohesiveness and continuity in the decision making process.

Gonzo
09-17-2008, 01:59 PM
This is what was said that Senator Obama said.......delay an agreement...where is the " slowing down " thing????
Referring to what Wendy Morigi stated. I guess we have a case of "he said, she said" (literally). He's saying delay, she's saying it shouldn't be rushed. Good times.

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 02:02 PM
Referring to what Wendy Morigi stated. I guess we have a case of "he said, she said" (literally). He's saying delay, she's saying it shouldn't be rushed. Good times.


and that is so often the case. One reference says one thing and another says something else. It happens often I think.

Gonzo
09-17-2008, 02:10 PM
and that is so often the case. One reference says one thing and another says something else. It happens often I think.Too often, but that's politics, particularly in foreign relations where no matter how well one may speak anothers language, there is always a barrier to overcome.

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 02:25 PM
Too often, but that's politics, particularly in foreign relations where no matter how well one may speak anothers language, there is always a barrier to overcome.


you know I have to agree with you there. I am often misunderstood here and in other forums where I can only write my words and read theirs. English is not my first language and I often don't read things as they are intended but rather literally. I miss jokes often.........thinking them serious, things like that so I can understand exactly what you mean........