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phinman1
09-16-2008, 05:38 PM
Complete whack job. This woman a heartbeat away from the Presidency? Really? If this nut ever does attain the Presidency, I may just have to bolt the country.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8twqZpUT2NQ

ohall
09-16-2008, 05:58 PM
Bye and good riddance.

ohall
09-16-2008, 06:03 PM
I just viewed the video. I didn't see anything insane in there. If you believe in the Bible and the end days this is not an insane thought process. From what I could tell she simply was connecting with her constituents.

Now if you think anyone that thinks the end days will happen is insane, then there you go. Seems that kind of bias goes far deeper than Governor Palin.

By the way I don't think this kind of video evidence does anything more than energize an already energized LIB base.

ohall
09-16-2008, 06:06 PM
Yeah, guess you will be on your way to Alaska during Armageddon.:sidelol:

When the end days come and if I'm alive and that is what I feel is best for my family of course I will go there. You can patronize and make fun of ppl that believe this. That is your right. It's an offensive thing to do, but that is not my issue.

People like you think you can be prejudice against ppl of faith all the time. It's a sad thing, but it is however true.

finataxia24
09-16-2008, 06:13 PM
well

this should make u think twice


(http://www.progressive.org/node/124464/view)Palin Quoted a Bigot Who Called for RFK's Assassination (http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2008/9/16/131049/634) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/governor-palins-reading-l_b_126478.html)

phinman1
09-16-2008, 10:26 PM
When the end days come and if I'm alive and that is what I feel is best for my family of course I will go there. You can patronize and make fun of ppl that believe this. That is your right. It's an offensive thing to do, but that is not my issue.

People like you think you can be prejudice against ppl of faith all the time. It's a sad thing, but it is however true.


Offensive? You want to know offensive? A candidate for an executive office of the U.S. shoving her religion in my face. That's offensive.

This rapture garbage is every bit as silly as terrorists believing they'll be making it with 21 virgins after they blow themselves up and kill innocent people.

idaho
09-17-2008, 12:14 AM
What about this speaking in tongues?

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1090/1337606269_cf8841780d.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/theworldofpentecost/1337606269/&h=375&w=500&sz=103&hl=en&start=25&um=1&usg=__aTqDqmIe50kK6wGPzcqGXtBO28Q=&tbnid=5IwzzkQb_s9shM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspeaking%2Bin%2Btongues%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

Glossolalia or speaking in tongues is the vocalizing of fluent speech-like but unintelligible utterances, often as part of religious practice. Its use (including use in this article) sometimes also embraces Xenoglossy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoglossy) - speaking in a natural language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language) that was previously unknown to the speaker


My friend said he had a girl friend that took him to that assembly of god church once and this guy starts blabbing like a siezure. Then another parisher stands up to interpet the nonsense coming from the other dude. Giving all kinds of directions to the church on how to run finances to god knows what. He has no ideai what speaking in tongues is he thought someone should call 911. When someone told him what it was he climbed out the bathroom window to escape hoping no saw him that he knew. I am with the original poster Panama is looking good to me. No thanks to someone who blabbers mindsless crap while another parisher interpets gods words for all to follow.

According to some reports, Palin attends church at the Juneau Christian Center (http://www.blogger.com/www.jccalaska.com), a congregation affiliated with the Assembly of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world. Pentecostals are evangelicals who believe in a doctrine called the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” an intense spiritual encounter with God that often results in unintelligible utterances commonly known as “speaking in tongues.”

ohall
09-17-2008, 12:22 AM
Offensive? You want to know offensive? A candidate for an executive office of the U.S. shoving her religion in my face. That's offensive.

This rapture garbage is every bit as silly as terrorists believing they'll be making it with 21 virgins after they blow themselves up and kill innocent people.

She's not shoving anything your face. No one made you watch that video but hatred.

ohall
09-17-2008, 12:24 AM
What about this speaking in tongues?

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1090/1337606269_cf8841780d.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/theworldofpentecost/1337606269/&h=375&w=500&sz=103&hl=en&start=25&um=1&usg=__aTqDqmIe50kK6wGPzcqGXtBO28Q=&tbnid=5IwzzkQb_s9shM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspeaking%2Bin%2Btongues%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

Glossolalia or speaking in tongues is the vocalizing of fluent speech-like but unintelligible utterances, often as part of religious practice. Its use (including use in this article) sometimes also embraces Xenoglossy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoglossy) - speaking in a natural language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language) that was previously unknown to the speaker


My friend said he had a girl friend that took him to that assembly of god church once and this guy starts blabbing like a siezure. Then another parisher stands up to interpet the nonsense coming from the other dude. Giving all kinds of directions to the church on how to run finances to god knows what. He has no ideai what speaking in tongues is he thought someone should call 911. When someone told him what it was he climbed out the bathroom window to escape hoping no saw him that he knew. I am with the original poster Panama is looking good to me. No thanks to someone who blabbers mindsless crap while another parisher interpets gods words for all to follow.

According to some reports, Palin attends church at the Juneau Christian Center (http://www.blogger.com/www.jccalaska.com), a congregation affiliated with the Assembly of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world. Pentecostals are evangelicals who believe in a doctrine called the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” an intense spiritual encounter with God that often results in unintelligible utterances commonly known as “speaking in tongues.”

Why should that scare anyone?

What ppl believe as their personal religious beliefs is of no real concern to me. Talk tome about Rev's that hate this country and that are bigots then I'll care about it.

idaho
09-17-2008, 12:54 AM
Why should that scare anyone?

What ppl believe as their personal religious beliefs is of no real concern to me. Talk tome about Rev's that hate this country and that are bigots then I'll care about it.

It is of great concern to me. And I venture to guess many more voters.
Somebody starts yelling nonsense no one can understand except for some other person in the congregation that understands perfectly and it is a message from god like in code. I am not trying to knock anyone's religion and I would be the first to say differant strokes for differant folks but this version scares me and it should you to. How do you know if the guy isn't crazy and just yelling nonsense? Good luck on that one governor Palin.

"Palin is not the first Pentecostal politician to gain national attention. James Watt, the Secretary of the Interior under Ronald Reagan, was a member of an Assembly of God Church. Like most Pentecostals, Watt shunned certain forms of popular entertainment as being too worldly. In 1983, he banned the Beach Boys from playing a Fourth of July concert on the National Mall because, as he said, they drew an “undesirable element”

"John Ashcroft, George W. Bush’s Attorney General and the controversial enforcer of the Patriot Act, was the son of an Assembly of God minister and a Pentecostal clergyman himself. In addition to a distinguished career in politics, Ashcroft was a gospel song writer. He also used Crisco cooking oil to anoint himself before serving his two terms as Missouri governor."


As for Obama he came out and denounced Rev Wright. He said these were not his beliefs. Any chance we get that from Palin. Finally it does matter because we are putting these people in positions of great power. We have to trust that they can seperate there personal beliefs from the good of the country. Some can others can't. We are entitled to find out if pain cannot then what are we in for.

ohall
09-17-2008, 12:56 AM
It is of great concern to me. And I venture to guess many more voters.
Somebody starts yelling nonsense no one can understand except for some other person in the congregation that understands perfectly and it is a message from god like in code. I am not trying to knock anyone's religion and I would be the first to say differant strokes for differant folks but this version scares me and it should you to. How do you know if the guy isn't crazy and just yelling nonsense? Good luck on that one governor Palin.

"Palin is not the first Pentecostal politician to gain national attention. James Watt, the Secretary of the Interior under Ronald Reagan, was a member of an Assembly of God Church. Like most Pentecostals, Watt shunned certain forms of popular entertainment as being too worldly. In 1983, he banned the Beach Boys from playing a Fourth of July concert on the National Mall because, as he said, they drew an “undesirable element”

"John Ashcroft, George W. Bush’s Attorney General and the controversial enforcer of the Patriot Act, was the son of an Assembly of God minister and a Pentecostal clergyman himself. In addition to a distinguished career in politics, Ashcroft was a gospel song writer. He also used Crisco cooking oil to anoint himself before serving his two terms as Missouri governor."


As for Obama he came out and denounced Rev Wright. He said these were not his beliefs. Any chance we get that from Palin. Finally it does matter because we are putting these people in positions of great power. We have to trust that they can seperate there personal beliefs from the good of the country. Some can others can't. We are entitled to find out if pain cannot then what are we in for.

And they were voting for Obama any way.

Yes Obama denounced Rev. Wright after spending 20-years in the American hating bigots church. That's the kind of change we can believe in! If you drink Obama cool-aid!

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 01:06 AM
Seems to me these pentacostals and speaking in tongue folks are just following their religion, not using the pulpit to spew anti-american hate.

Palin says that she does not posses this gift of speaking in tongues, but respects those who do.

Are we at a point in America where we lose all respect for peoples beliefs?

ohall
09-17-2008, 01:10 AM
Seems to me these pentacostals and speaking in tongue folks are just following their religion, not using the pulpit to spew anti-american hate.

Palin says that she does not posses this gift of speaking in tongues, but respects those who do.

Are we at a point in America where we lose all respect for peoples beliefs?

Only if that person is a Republican.

idaho
09-17-2008, 02:38 AM
Seems to me these pentacostals and speaking in tongue folks are just following their religion, not using the pulpit to spew anti-american hate.

Palin says that she does not posses this gift of speaking in tongues, but respects those who do.

Are we at a point in America where we lose all respect for peoples beliefs?

No we are not in a position to loss respect for someone's religious beliefs. In fact we are in dire need of more respect for people's beliefs. That is why it is imperative to seperate the church and state. It is disrespectful of someone of a differant belief to have the vp pushing her belief system on others in an offical capcity. If someone wants to speak in tongue in their church or home or on a park bench in downtown america more power to them. Has nothing to do with me. It changes when they run for vice president to me. I want someone who respects the seperation of church and state. In my opinion she does not respect that and because she doesn't her beliefs are on the table.

Just but a few examples:

the address at the Assembly of God Church in Wasilla, Palin's ease in talking about the intersection of faith and public life was clear. Among other things, she encouraged the group of young church leaders to pray that "God's will" be done in bringing about the construction of a big pipeline in the state, and she suggested her work as governor would be hampered "if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God."
She also told the group that her eldest child, Track, would soon be deployed by the U.S. Army to Iraq and that they should pray "that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God - that's what we have to make sure we are praying for, that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan."

There is a place and time for religious beliefs. Politics is not one of them. I guess some would call boundaries. She lacks boundaries between church and state. Her beliefs are hers and mine are mine and yours are yours. Just don't push your beliefs in a political role.

Shortly after taking office as governor in 2006, Sarah Palin sent an e-mail message to Paul Riley, her former pastor in the Assembly of God Church, which her family began attending when she was a youth. She needed spiritual advice in how to do her new job, said Riley, who is 78 and retired from the church

ohall
09-17-2008, 02:53 AM
No we are not in a position to loss respect for someone's religious beliefs. In fact we are in dire need of more respect for people's beliefs. That is why it is imperative to seperate the church and state. It is disrespectful of someone of a differant belief to have the vp pushing her belief system on others in an offical capcity. If someone wants to speak in tongue in their church or home or on a park bench in downtown america more power to them. Has nothing to do with me. It changes when they run for vice president to me. I want someone who respects the seperation of church and state. In my opinion she does not respect that and because she doesn't her beliefs are on the table.

Just but a few examples:

the address at the Assembly of God Church in Wasilla, Palin's ease in talking about the intersection of faith and public life was clear. Among other things, she encouraged the group of young church leaders to pray that "God's will" be done in bringing about the construction of a big pipeline in the state, and she suggested her work as governor would be hampered "if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God."
She also told the group that her eldest child, Track, would soon be deployed by the U.S. Army to Iraq and that they should pray "that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God - that's what we have to make sure we are praying for, that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan."

There is a place and time for religious beliefs. Politics is not one of them. I guess some would call boundaries. She lacks boundaries between church and state. Her beliefs are hers and mine are mine and yours are yours. Just don't push your beliefs in a political role.

Shortly after taking office as governor in 2006, Sarah Palin sent an e-mail message to Paul Riley, her former pastor in the Assembly of God Church, which her family began attending when she was a youth. She needed spiritual advice in how to do her new job, said Riley, who is 78 and retired from the church

That's not what that is about. I suggest you put away the ACLU playbook for a moment. It simply means no one church will have influence over our political leaders and no one political leader will have influence over any church. In short there will be no official church of the state.

It was never meant to repress religious expression by any political leader.

idaho
09-17-2008, 03:50 AM
That's not what that is about. I suggest you put away the ACLU playbook for a moment. It simply means no one church will have influence over our political leaders and no one political leader will have influence over any church. In short there will be no official church of the state.

It was never meant to repress religious expression by any political leader.


Not an ACLU fan. Just an attorney that happens to know the law. See everson v board of education.

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this:

(1) Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church.
(2) Neither can pass laws which aid one religion aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.
(3) Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.
(4) No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance.
(5) No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. (6) Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.

further explained by O'conner in the Lemon case.

In a concurring opinion in Lynch v. Donnelly (1984), Justice O'Connor interpreted the "purpose" and "effect" prongs of the Lemon test in such a way as to place primary emphasis on the issue of government endorsement of religion. According to O'Connor,

The Establishment Clause prohibits government from making adherence to a religion relevant in any way to a person's standing in the political community. Government can run afoul of that prohibition...[by] endorsement or disapproval of religion. Endorsement sends a message to nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community. The proper inquiry under the purpose prong of Lemon, I submit, is whether the government intends to convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion.

The proper issue is does or will palin's speech or actions convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion. I would argue she pushes the religion to much for my comfort level.

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 05:54 AM
Offensive? You want to know offensive? A candidate for an executive office of the U.S. shoving her religion in my face. That's offensive.

This rapture garbage is every bit as silly as terrorists believing they'll be making it with 21 virgins after they blow themselves up and kill innocent people.

Hope Obama's public display at the wall in Jerusalem offended you just as much


i'm betting it didnt though:rolleyes:

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 05:56 AM
What about this speaking in tongues?

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1090/1337606269_cf8841780d.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/theworldofpentecost/1337606269/&h=375&w=500&sz=103&hl=en&start=25&um=1&usg=__aTqDqmIe50kK6wGPzcqGXtBO28Q=&tbnid=5IwzzkQb_s9shM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspeaking%2Bin%2Btongues%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

Glossolalia or speaking in tongues is the vocalizing of fluent speech-like but unintelligible utterances, often as part of religious practice. Its use (including use in this article) sometimes also embraces Xenoglossy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoglossy) - speaking in a natural language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language) that was previously unknown to the speaker


My friend said he had a girl friend that took him to that assembly of god church once and this guy starts blabbing like a siezure. Then another parisher stands up to interpet the nonsense coming from the other dude. Giving all kinds of directions to the church on how to run finances to god knows what. He has no ideai what speaking in tongues is he thought someone should call 911. When someone told him what it was he climbed out the bathroom window to escape hoping no saw him that he knew. I am with the original poster Panama is looking good to me. No thanks to someone who blabbers mindsless crap while another parisher interpets gods words for all to follow.

According to some reports, Palin attends church at the Juneau Christian Center (http://www.blogger.com/www.jccalaska.com), a congregation affiliated with the Assembly of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world. Pentecostals are evangelicals who believe in a doctrine called the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” an intense spiritual encounter with God that often results in unintelligible utterances commonly known as “speaking in tongues.”

Wow....a little religion sure is scary to the most tolerant and reasonable people.

Maybe Baldwin and Streisand will let all you people threatening to leave live at the commune they bought after they promised to leave if Bush won.

Oh yeah...empty words mean something too:up:

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 06:00 AM
Not an ACLU fan. Just an attorney that happens to know the law. See everson v board of education.

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this:

(1) Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church.
(2) Neither can pass laws which aid one religion aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.
(3) Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.
(4) No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance.
(5) No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. (6) Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.

further explained by O'conner in the Lemon case.

In a concurring opinion in Lynch v. Donnelly (1984), Justice O'Connor interpreted the "purpose" and "effect" prongs of the Lemon test in such a way as to place primary emphasis on the issue of government endorsement of religion. According to O'Connor,

The Establishment Clause prohibits government from making adherence to a religion relevant in any way to a person's standing in the political community. Government can run afoul of that prohibition...[by] endorsement or disapproval of religion. Endorsement sends a message to nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community. The proper inquiry under the purpose prong of Lemon, I submit, is whether the government intends to convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion.

The proper issue is does or will palin's speech or actions convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion. I would argue she pushes the religion to much for my comfort level.


You're an attorney?:sidelol:

And nothing you posted there precludes any religious person from holding office or praying to their God for guidance and acceptance.

Get a grip

phinman1
09-17-2008, 08:45 AM
Seems to me these pentacostals and speaking in tongue folks are just following their religion, not using the pulpit to spew anti-american hate.

Palin says that she does not posses this gift of speaking in tongues, but respects those who do.

Are we at a point in America where we lose all respect for peoples beliefs?

When the beliefs are inane, hopefully yes.

What, just because somebody believes something it should be respected? Pretty ridiculous standard.

I believe God is spaghetti and meatballs and visits Earth once every 6000 years, on a Thursday. You respect that?

phinman1
09-17-2008, 08:59 AM
Hope Obama's public display at the wall in Jerusalem offended you just as much


i'm betting it didnt though:rolleyes:

Yeah, Obama wears his religion on his sleeve just as much as Palin. Here, let me use your favorite smilie for that insinuation.:rolleyes:

Let me know when Obama asks people to "pray for a pipeline" or wants to teach creationism is schools, or refers to the war in Iraq as "a task from God".

poornate
09-17-2008, 09:16 AM
I think the problem here is that a lot of the Conservatives on this board act like Palin is moderate in her religion, as a way to protect the questioning of how religion shapes her character and mentality from being overly negative. She is on a fringe guys... and it is a reasonable concern...

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 10:33 AM
Yeah, Obama wears his religion on his sleeve just as much as Palin. Here, let me use your favorite smilie for that insinuation.:rolleyes:

Let me know when Obama asks people to "pray for a pipeline" or wants to teach creationism is schools, or refers to the war in Iraq as "a task from God".

See Obama and the note he put into the wall when praying in Jerusalem

Get back to me and tell me the difference:rolleyes:

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 10:36 AM
I think the problem here is that a lot of the Conservatives on this board act like Palin is moderate in her religion, as a way to protect the questioning of how religion shapes her character and mentality from being overly negative. She is on a fringe guys... and it is a reasonable concern...

I dont see her handling snakes or beating herself till she bleeds, i dont think shes as "fringe" as she's being painted. Some people think baptists are fringe people. Being one myself, i'd love for anyone to tell me how i am on the fringe

Chavez Ravine
09-17-2008, 10:47 AM
there are 30 million pentecostals in america and including charismatics that numbers is around 80 million. That's not a fringe cult.

phinman1
09-17-2008, 11:10 AM
See Obama and the note he put into the wall when praying in Jerusalem

Get back to me and tell me the difference:rolleyes:

Wow. O.K. I'll repeat myself.

Obama's act of was of a PERSONAL nature, he wasn't thrusting his beliefs on anyone. You don't see the difference between that and the examples I gave of Palins "faith" in my previous post?

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 11:34 AM
Wow. O.K. I'll repeat myself.

Obama's act of was of a PERSONAL nature, he wasn't thrusting his beliefs on anyone. You don't see the difference between that and the examples I gave of Palins "faith" in my previous post?

Yeah, he didnt plant that note KNOWING it would be made public......i got some ocean front property in Arizona if youre looking for a deal :lol:

Oh, and why is most every example everyone gives of Palin thrusting her faith on everyone is from her speaking....at a church?

You gotta look to get that message bro

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 11:59 AM
I think the problem here is that a lot of the Conservatives on this board act like Palin is moderate in her religion, as a way to protect the questioning of how religion shapes her character and mentality from being overly negative. She is on a fringe guys... and it is a reasonable concern...

hmm you could have a point here PoorNate. It leads me to wonder how twenty years of attending Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church may have shaped Senator Obama's character and mentality as well.

idaho
09-17-2008, 12:51 PM
[quote=MoFinz;1062628348]You're an attorney?:sidelol:

And nothing you posted there precludes any religious person from holding office or praying to their God for guidance and acceptance.

Nothing in this discusion was about religious person holding office or praying. About using your role as a state offical to advance your religion.

appy the test from the supreme court if you can understand it.

Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

The proper inquiry under the purpose prong of Lemon, I submit, is whether the government intends to convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion.


These are the two of the Major tennants of constitutional law that govern church and state analysis. I am simplifing for you. Does Sarah Palin by her words or conduct intend to convey a message of endorsement of religion in her capacity as a state official.

exhibit no. 1
"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

exhibit no. 2
Palin's former pastor says he has no doubt her religious beliefs will influence her decision making when it comes to government policy.

I don't have time to do all the google research as to her religious beliefs and use of the political process to further those but you should see the pattern if not I am wasting my time anyway. As for your :lol: about the attorney representation. Idaho bar number 3962 Call the bar at telephone # 208 344 4500 Get my name and phone number.

phinfan3411
09-17-2008, 12:58 PM
[quote=MoFinz;1062628348]You're an attorney?:sidelol:

And nothing you posted there precludes any religious person from holding office or praying to their God for guidance and acceptance.

Nothing in this discusion was about religious person holding office or praying. About using your role as a state offical to advance your religion.

appy the test from the supreme court if you can understand it.

Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

The proper inquiry under the purpose prong of Lemon, I submit, is whether the government intends to convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion.


These are the two of the Major tennants of constitutional law that govern church and state analysis. I am simplifing for you. Does Sarah Palin by her words or conduct intend to convey a message of endorsement of religion in her capacity as a state official.

exhibit no. 1
"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

exhibit no. 2
Palin's former pastor says he has no doubt her religious beliefs will influence her decision making when it comes to government policy.

I don't have time to do all the google research as to her religious beliefs and use of the political process to further those but you should see the pattern if not I am wasting my time anyway. As for your :lol: about the attorney representation. Idaho bar number 3962 Call the bar at telephone # 208 344 4500 Get my name and phone number.


I don't think he was saying he didn't believe you were a lawyer (I mean, I don't think there is exactly a shortage of you guys), he was just surprised you weren't a democatic presidential candidate.

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 01:03 PM
When the beliefs are inane, hopefully yes.

What, just because somebody believes something it should be respected? Pretty ridiculous standard.

I believe God is spaghetti and meatballs and visits Earth once every 6000 years, on a Thursday. You respect that?Yes actually I do respect that, even if you really did believe it.

People believe in lot's of different things, and sometime those things seem really out of wack.

But when we start to quantify and assign value what is valid and what isn't valid, we become exactly what we don't want to become, intolerant of the things that are different and that we don't understand.

This particular strain of christianity is considered Charismatic. Their beliefs are worn on their sleeve and they are "filled" with the spirit, and it is quite emotional at times, to some, and very demonstrative - raising of hands, speaking in tongues, heelings etc....It is a very believer type of church, not for visitors or outsiders - they wouldn't understand, and probably get the wrong idea. They are just as passionate as anyone else with a passion for something. They aren't hurting anyone.

Now if you can't respect someone who you think is not like you, or makes you feel uncomfortable, or any range of emotions, then you don't deserve to be respected when people think you are strange and out of wack etc.....

I am not saying you have to accept it, or understand it, just respect that they are freedom loving Americans just like you and they have the freedom to worship in any way they choose, as long as they aren't breaking the law.

idaho
09-17-2008, 01:09 PM
I dont see her handling snakes or beating herself till she bleeds, i dont think shes as "fringe" as she's being painted. Some people think baptists are fringe people. Being one myself, i'd love for anyone to tell me how i am on the fringe


Baptist don't speak in tongue for one. However if you insist on stating palin's religion is not fringe go down to your corner street and start speaking in tongue and watch how fast the cops arrive. Then have fun with that mental hold the state puts on you. Somethiing tells me it won't be the first.

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 01:11 PM
[quote=MoFinz;1062628348]You're an attorney?:sidelol:

And nothing you posted there precludes any religious person from holding office or praying to their God for guidance and acceptance.

Nothing in this discusion was about religious person holding office or praying. About using your role as a state offical to advance your religion.

appy the test from the supreme court if you can understand it.

Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

The proper inquiry under the purpose prong of Lemon, I submit, is whether the government intends to convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion.


These are the two of the Major tennants of constitutional law that govern church and state analysis. I am simplifing for you. Does Sarah Palin by her words or conduct intend to convey a message of endorsement of religion in her capacity as a state official.

exhibit no. 1
"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

exhibit no. 2
Palin's former pastor says he has no doubt her religious beliefs will influence her decision making when it comes to government policy.

I don't have time to do all the google research as to her religious beliefs and use of the political process to further those but you should see the pattern if not I am wasting my time anyway. As for your :lol: about the attorney representation. Idaho bar number 3962 Call the bar at telephone # 208 344 4500 Get my name and phone number.

Oh, i understand perfectly. What you, in your legal haze fail to recognize are that she is not endorsing nor promoting religion. She has prayed, in her church, for Guidance. She has asked others in her church to pray for their leaders. None of this is against the law or unconstitutional. She will use her moral judgement, influenced by her religion, to make a decision? GADS NO! Lets have atheists only in office.....To even suggest she has somehow thrust her religion upon you is not just a stretch, its disingenious.

I LOL at any attorney that would suggest she has violated the constitution on this matter. Have a problem with that? Call 1-800-GivACrap....my secretary will tell you how valid your legal expertise is on this matter

Man i miss JimmyJames...he would definitely have set this record straight

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 01:12 PM
Baptist don't speak in tongue for one. However if you insist on stating palin's religion is not fringe go down to your corner street and start speaking in tongue and watch how fast the cops arrive. Then have fun with that mental hold the state puts on you. Somethiing tells me it won't be the first.

well, i'll just call you for pro bono work.....and stop there before it gets to the personal level you just took it to :lol:

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 01:17 PM
I'm always amazed at how quickly some people take it personal when you present them with a valid point contradicting a stance they have. Seriously, if you can't have a mature argument, and instead claiming people are boxes of rocks or you've owned them........well, let's just say you've told me all i need to know about you. And don't take it personal when i say....i've been called worse by better :lol:

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 01:18 PM
These are the two of the Major tennants of constitutional law that govern church and state analysis. I am simplifing for you. Does Sarah Palin by her words or conduct intend to convey a message of endorsement of religion in her capacity as a state official.No more than many Government official being sworn in on the Holy Bible. Or closing a State of the Union Speech with the words "God Bless America".


exhibit no. 1
"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."
She was speaking to a church, what else is she supposed to say, nothing religious? And it was her hometown church to boot, just paying a visit. Encouraging people to pray for our country, it's leaders and soldiers somehow is a bad thing these days?

exhibit no. 2
Palin's former pastor says he has no doubt her religious beliefs will influence her decision making when it comes to government policy.Hmmmm and practically every President we have had has been influenced by his morals and values and his beleifs and oh yeah a lot of that comes from religion, imagine that.

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 01:21 PM
No more than many Government official being sworn in on the Holy Bible. Or closing a State of the Union Speech with the words "God Bless America".

She was speaking to a church, what else is she supposed to say, nothing religious? And it was her hometown church to boot, just paying a visit. Encouraging people to pray for our country, it's leaders and soldiers somehow is a bad thing these days?
Hmmmm and practically every President we have had has been influenced by his morals and values and his beleifs and oh yeah a lot of that comes from religion, imagine that.

Which Bar do you belong to D7? I want you to represent me when they come to take me away for speaking in tongues on the corner of Broad and 6Th street in downtown Richmond?
:hi5:

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 01:36 PM
Which Bar do you belong to D7? I want you to represent me when they come to take me away for speaking in tongues on the corner of Broad and 6Th street in downtown Richmond?
:hi5:I will fight for you my friend.

Imagine if you did that in Haight Ashbury, you would be considered normal.

phinman1
09-17-2008, 01:43 PM
I am having this same debate with Mofinz and I have concluded Mofinz cannot grab the distinction you are trying to make. We are most likely argueing with a box of rocks. I have better things to do.

Agreed.

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 01:45 PM
I will fight for you my friend.

Imagine if you did that in Haight Ashbury, you would be considered normal.

Either that or a Howard Dean supporter

phinman1
09-17-2008, 01:53 PM
Yes actually I do respect that, even if you really did believe it.

People believe in lot's of different things, and sometime those things seem really out of wack.

But when we start to quantify and assign value what is valid and what isn't valid, we become exactly what we don't want to become, intolerant of the things that are different and that we don't understand.

This particular strain of christianity is considered Charismatic. Their beliefs are worn on their sleeve and they are "filled" with the spirit, and it is quite emotional at times, to some, and very demonstrative - raising of hands, speaking in tongues, heelings etc....It is a very believer type of church, not for visitors or outsiders - they wouldn't understand, and probably get the wrong idea. They are just as passionate as anyone else with a passion for something. They aren't hurting anyone.

Now if you can't respect someone who you think is not like you, or makes you feel uncomfortable, or any range of emotions, then you don't deserve to be respected when people think you are strange and out of wack etc.....

I am not saying you have to accept it, or understand it, just respect that they are freedom loving Americans just like you and they have the freedom to worship in any way they choose, as long as they aren't breaking the law.

"Filled with the spirit":sidelol:

They're "full" of something alright.

As for your lecture, spare me. I don't believe in giving something credibility when it has none. Or giving something respect when it isn't worthy of respect.

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 01:56 PM
"Filled with the spirit":sidelol:

They're "full" of something alright.

As for your lecture, spare me. I don't believe in giving something credibility when it has none. Or giving something respect when it isn't worthy of respect.


For me it's not a matter of respecting WHAT someone believes but it a matter of respecting their right to believe as they wish............

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 02:10 PM
For me it's not a matter of respecting WHAT someone believes but it a matter of respecting their right to believe as they wish............

You can't respect someone that doesn't respect themselves....it's noble to want to though

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 02:15 PM
You can't respect someone that doesn't respect themselves....it's noble to want to though


I respect the RIGHT to believe, I don't believe that is the same as having respect for someone that doesn't respect themselves.

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 02:17 PM
"Filled with the spirit":sidelol:

They're "full" of something alright.

As for your lecture, spare me. I don't believe in giving something credibility when it has none. Or giving something respect when it isn't worthy of respect.Then you will receive in like kind.

Respecting someone's right to believe in what they want does not give it credibility.

I don't agree with White Supremacists, in fact I whole heartily disagree with them on all levels. But they have the right to believe how they wish, and I respect their right to do that. And I wouldn't seek to take that right away, no matter how awful or strange it may be.

ohall
09-17-2008, 02:22 PM
When the beliefs are inane, hopefully yes.

What, just because somebody believes something it should be respected? Pretty ridiculous standard.

I believe God is spaghetti and meatballs and visits Earth once every 6000 years, on a Thursday. You respect that?

Are you sure you thought about this before you typed it?

phinman1
09-17-2008, 02:25 PM
Then you will receive in like kind.

Respecting someone's right to believe in what they want does not give it credibility.

I don't agree with White Supremacists, in fact I whole heartily disagree with them on all levels. But they have the right to believe how they wish, and I respect their right to do that. And I wouldn't seek to take that right away, no matter how awful or strange it may be.

You're mixing two separate issues.

Yes, I do respect an individuals right to believe in what they wish to believe in. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that I should then respect what they in fact believe in.

As for receiving in like kind, I sincerely hope so. I would want somebody to call me out when I believe in something, or act upon something that is totally nuts.

ohall
09-17-2008, 02:26 PM
I am having this same debate with Mofinz and I have concluded Mofinz cannot grab the distinction you are trying to make. We are most likely argueing with a box of rocks. I have better things to do.

Wooooooooo. I think you should really apologize to him. I think he more than understands what you are trying to say, the issue is you are not quite understanding his point.

Separation of church and state is not what you think it is. ACLU fan or not you are carrying their water on this subject my friend.

ohall
09-17-2008, 02:32 PM
"Filled with the spirit":sidelol:

They're "full" of something alright.

As for your lecture, spare me. I don't believe in giving something credibility when it has none. Or giving something respect when it isn't worthy of respect.

You hate ppl that believe in God right?

ohall
09-17-2008, 02:34 PM
You're mixing two separate issues.

Yes, I do respect an individuals right to believe in what they wish to believe in. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that I should then respect what they in fact believe in.

As for receiving in like kind, I sincerely hope so. I would want somebody to call me out when I believe in something, or act upon something that is totally nuts.

According to whom?

I could make an argument when Obama left a note in the wall for God to read he was in fact nuts!

You only see what you want to see!

phinman1
09-17-2008, 02:58 PM
According to whom?

I could make an argument when Obama left a note in the wall for God to read he was in fact nuts!

You only see what you want to see!

Yes you could, however, I have never posted anything disparaging a persons private need for some sort of spirituality. While I am not spiritual myself, I certainly respect the family of 5 who quietly goes to church within their community. I have friends that do. It can certainly be argued that man is born with some need to be spiritual.

D7 was referring to "charismatic" christians, and they were the subject of my post that you have referenced. Don't take my statements and generalize them to all religious people. Not my intent.

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 03:16 PM
You're mixing two separate issues.

Yes, I do respect an individuals right to believe in what they wish to believe in. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that I should then respect what they in fact believe in.

As for receiving in like kind, I sincerely hope so. I would want somebody to call me out when I believe in something, or act upon something that is totally nuts.
Then we see eye to eye then. I agree I don't have to respect what one may believe in, but I respect their right to believe in it, no mater how hooey it is.:up:
Personally , the charismatic movement gives me the creeps.

ohall
09-17-2008, 04:23 PM
Yes you could, however, I have never posted anything disparaging a persons private need for some sort of spirituality. While I am not spiritual myself, I certainly respect the family of 5 who quietly goes to church within their community. I have friends that do. It can certainly be argued that man is born with some need to be spiritual.

D7 was referring to "charismatic" christians, and they were the subject of my post that you have referenced. Don't take my statements and generalize them to all religious people. Not my intent.

You think him placing a note in the wall was a private matter? Why was the press there then?

It seems to me you only have issues with REP's doing these things and give the DEM's a pass.

poornate
09-17-2008, 04:37 PM
You think him placing a note in the wall was a private matter? Why was the press there then?

It seems to me you only have issues with REP's doing these things and give the DEM's a pass.

Come on O'Hall... the press is there when they take a dump in the morning... i am not religious and I would have participated in the prayer wall if I had the chance... it is cultural history to me... I have gone to Catholic Churches and Southern baptist ones for the same reason...

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 04:44 PM
Come on O'Hall... the press is there when they take a dump in the morning... i am not religious and I would have participated in the prayer wall if I had the chance... it is cultural history to me... I have gone to Catholic Churches and Southern baptist ones for the same reason...

Yeah, but according to some people here (not you fo sho) think is a candidate participates in a religious function or expresses any sort of deference to a deity, they are not then qualified to hold office.

Tell me Nate....do you think Obama put that note there in front of everyone thinking it wouldnt get picked up and distributed? Couldnt he have prayed silently, reverently, without materializing his religious hope and prayer for the world to see?

But what do i know? Im just a box of rocks ;)

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 04:48 PM
Yeah, but according to some people here (not you fo sho) think is a candidate participates in a religious function or expresses any sort of deference to a deity, they are not then qualified to hold office.

Tell me Nate....do you think Obama put that note there in front of everyone thinking it wouldnt get picked up and distributed? Couldnt he have prayed silently, reverently, without materializing his religious hope and prayer for the world to see?

But what do i know? Im just a box of rocks ;)

Hey Mo could I have one of your ROCKS. I always wanted a pet that was easy to take care of!!! I promise to name it after you.........

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 05:05 PM
Hey Mo could I have one of your ROCKS. I always wanted a pet that was easy to take care of!!! I promise to name it after you.........

You are certainly welcome to my rocks....just don't tell Mrs. Mo.....she's a lil jealous over me rocks :lol:

:woot:

phinman1
09-17-2008, 06:13 PM
You think him placing a note in the wall was a private matter? Why was the press there then?

It seems to me you only have issues with REP's doing these things and give the DEM's a pass.

:rolleyes2:

ohall
09-17-2008, 07:00 PM
Come on O'Hall... the press is there when they take a dump in the morning... i am not religious and I would have participated in the prayer wall if I had the chance... it is cultural history to me... I have gone to Catholic Churches and Southern baptist ones for the same reason...

Please, if he wanted a private moment he most certainly could of had one. He wanted the press there and you know it. So save the nonsense.

Dolphan7
09-18-2008, 01:20 AM
Yeah, but according to some people here (not you fo sho) think is a candidate participates in a religious function or expresses any sort of deference to a deity, they are not then qualified to hold office.

Tell me Nate....do you think Obama put that note there in front of everyone thinking it wouldnt get picked up and distributed? Couldnt he have prayed silently, reverently, without materializing his religious hope and prayer for the world to see?

But what do i know? Im just a box of rocks ;)
A box of rocks that makes more sense than half this board!:up:

The_Dark_Knight
09-18-2008, 09:42 AM
I skimmed through the first page of posts and just shake my head at some of the posts in this thread. Let me ask two questions to try to bring everyone back down to earth, ok??

Did Sarah Palin speak to the congregation of her church or did she address the state assembly...and was she addressing the church in her official capacity as governor or a member of that congregation??

I guess when you become an elected official of the party you oppose, you're not allowed to be a person of faith anymore.

phinman1
09-18-2008, 10:23 AM
I skimmed through the first page of posts and just shake my head at some of the posts in this thread. Let me ask two questions to try to bring everyone back down to earth, ok??

Did Sarah Palin speak to the congregation of her church or did she address the state assembly...and was she addressing the church in her official capacity as governor or a member of that congregation??

I guess when you become an elected official of the party you oppose, you're not allowed to be a person of faith anymore.

That would be nice, but afraid that is a ways away from becoming reality. One day hopefully.

The denials of Palin as a religious fool confound me.

She wants creationism taught in schools and is against abortion even in cases of rape and incest. Why? BECAUSE OF HER RELIGION. She thrusts her beliefs on others through her policies. Is this so hard to grasp?

I'm done with this thread. I'm sure a lot of you don't mind.

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 10:23 AM
I skimmed through the first page of posts and just shake my head at some of the posts in this thread. Let me ask two questions to try to bring everyone back down to earth, ok??

Did Sarah Palin speak to the congregation of her church or did she address the state assembly...and was she addressing the church in her official capacity as governor or a member of that congregation??

I guess when you become an elected official of the party you oppose, you're not allowed to be a person of faith anymore.

According to the legal scholars, any proclaimation of faith, be it public, private or (gasp) in a church is a violation of the sacred cow...er seperation of church and state clause. If only they had caught that dolt Washington kneeling in prayer, we could have nipped the whole thing in the bud at inception.
:rolleyes:

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 10:26 AM
That would be nice, but afraid that is a ways away from becoming reality. One day hopefully.

The denials of Palin as a religious fool confound me.

She wants creationism taught in schools and is against abortion even in cases of rape and incest. Why? BECAUSE OF HER RELIGION. She thrusts her beliefs on others. Is this so hard to grasp?

I'm done with this thread. I'm sure a lot of you don't mind.


:bye:

BlueFin
09-18-2008, 10:33 AM
According to the legal scholars, any proclaimation of faith, be it public, private or (gasp) in a church is a violation of the sacred cow...er seperation of church and state clause. If only they had caught that dolt Washington kneeling in prayer, we could have nipped the whole thing in the bud at inception.
:rolleyes:

This is a ridiculous argument, clearly the only thing the constitution is alluding too is that laws will not be passed recognizing any religion, nor will any be passed to prohibit the free exercizing of religious faith.

It does not prohibit political leaders from expressing their religion, just says they can't pass laws in favor of any religion.

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 10:38 AM
This is a ridiculous argument, clearly the only thing the constitution is alluding too is that laws will not be passed recognizing any religion, nor will any be passed to prohibit the free exercizing of religious faith.

It does not prohibit political leaders from expressing their religion, just says they can't pass laws in favor of any religion.



Shhhh..they'll hear you. Then you'll be sent down here with the rest of us boxes of rocks ;)

poornate
09-18-2008, 10:51 AM
Yeah, but according to some people here (not you fo sho) think is a candidate participates in a religious function or expresses any sort of deference to a deity, they are not then qualified to hold office.

Tell me Nate....do you think Obama put that note there in front of everyone thinking it wouldnt get picked up and distributed? Couldnt he have prayed silently, reverently, without materializing his religious hope and prayer for the world to see?


He didn't do it for the world to see... he did what is done there... You don't go to the Blarney Stone and pat it... you don't go to the Sistine Chapel and look down... You wouldn't assume that his prayer would be taken... it is BEYOND a cultural no-no there... you want some perspective? Ask miamian whether or not he thinks there was a chance that someone would have taken Obama's not from the wall.... It was shocking, to say the least...

I'm not religious... but have no problem with a candidate with faith in something.... But speaking in tongues and censorship and intolerance and all of that other stuff scares me.... in a person as well as in a candidate....

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 11:05 AM
He didn't do it for the world to see... he did what is done there... You don't go to the Blarney Stone and pat it... you don't go to the Sistine Chapel and look down... You wouldn't assume that his prayer would be taken... it is BEYOND a cultural no-no there... you want some perspective? Ask miamian whether or not he thinks there was a chance that someone would have taken Obama's not from the wall.... It was shocking, to say the least...

I'm not religious... but have no problem with a candidate with faith in something.... But speaking in tongues and censorship and intolerance and all of that other stuff scares me.... in a person as well as in a candidate....

Every person that goes to that wall does so to put a note in it? And we both know Obama is a smart, calculating and reasonable man. He knew it would be shown. He knew someone would take that note and release it. Otherwise he would have prayed inwardly and genuinely. I recall something in the bible about prayer, and how it's supposed to be done reverently and quietly, and not publicly for the world to see you do it.

And my mama told me a long time ago, NEVER write anything down you wouldn't want the world to see. I took that to heart. I wonder why Obama never got that message?

poornate
09-18-2008, 11:21 AM
Every person that goes to that wall does so to put a note in it? And we both know Obama is a smart, calculating and reasonable man. He knew it would be shown. He knew someone would take that note and release it. Otherwise he would have prayed inwardly and genuinely. I recall something in the bible about prayer, and how it's supposed to be done reverently and quietly, and not publicly for the world to see you do it.

And my mama told me a long time ago, NEVER write anything down you wouldn't want the world to see. I took that to heart. I wonder why Obama never got that message?

First of all... yes... the written prayer has been the established practice for hundreds of years... The Israeli Telephone company even has a "prayer fax" line set up so people can fax prayers from around the world... Secondly... removing a prayer note is BEYOND the pale... it is BEYOND a soin culturally... There were rabbinical bans on knocking DUST out of the crevices as an affront to God... Third... There was nothing in his prayer controversial or odd... I can't believe that the theft of a sincere thought for the nation can somehow be contributed negatively towards him...

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 11:42 AM
And care to tell me how Obama asking for Guidance is difference than Palin asking others to pray for Gods guidance for their elected officials? Because that's been others bone of contention on here, yet they ignore it.

And seriously...you know Obama knew that prayer would be lifted and reported....he's not Joe Schmoe.....he's OBAMATRON.....Savior of the Universe (Sorry Buck Rodgers fans, it's true)

poornate
09-18-2008, 11:49 AM
I haven't said anything about her praying for guidance... good for her... I have heard (not researched...) something about her saying Iraq was God's war... that would bother me if true... but i can't comment on it because I don't know... and because I don't know, it has not colored my opinion of her.... The nature of her religion is an issue for me, because it is extreme... i know she left the whacky church.... but 35+ years of that has to have had some effect...

I know that there are going to be and have been in this thread comparisons to the Rev Wright thing... they are unrelated and incomparable in my opinion... disagreeing with someone's tactics or opinions is different than observing someone who believes in people who can magically learn a secret language and channel spirits...

as for the prayer wall thing... I don't know.... I doubt he thought that the prayer would be stolen... if you knew how that would be looked at I think you would agree... Even if he did consider it, should he not be able to participate in what is the cultural norm because of assuming that people would do the worst?

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 12:01 PM
But what if, as Maariv reported, they were given permission by Obama to print it? Would that mean Obama played the media? And the Christian audience he wants to win over?

Palin, as far as i've researched, has never said Iraq was God's war. She merely asked people in a Church to pray that in this war, as in all matters, that we be working within Gods will.

Hardly a zealot......but i get your point. I hope ya see mine. Glad we can debate things as adults :wink:

poornate
09-21-2008, 11:50 PM
But what if, as Maariv reported, they were given permission by Obama to print it? Would that mean Obama played the media? And the Christian audience he wants to win over?

Palin, as far as i've researched, has never said Iraq was God's war. She merely asked people in a Church to pray that in this war, as in all matters, that we be working within Gods will.

Hardly a zealot......but i get your point. I hope ya see mine. Glad we can debate things as adults :wink:

Speaking in tongues? Sounds kinda crazy to me... I haven't heard about anyone claiming that he gave permission to print it... where did you see that?

FinFatale
09-22-2008, 01:05 PM
Speaking in tongues? Sounds kinda crazy to me... I haven't heard about anyone claiming that he gave permission to print it... where did you see that?

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Obama--Pimping-His-Private-by-Vivian-Berryhill-080727-147.html

whether he actually did or not??? I don't know for sure......but I did notice that in his prayer he is asking for help doing God's will and I don't think that is any different than what Govenor Palin has done..........

Blackocrates
09-22-2008, 06:12 PM
and was she addressing the church in her official capacity as governor or a member of that congregation??


Can the two be separated?