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phinfan3411
09-17-2008, 12:12 PM
I have been hoping someone else would have started this thread by now, but I guess I will. Where does most of the blame lie with our current crisis generated by the subprime mortgages?

I believe there is blame enough to go around. You should not overlook the people that put their name on the dotted line. My wife, and I were really surprised when we bought our house a few years ago at the amount of money we were approved for to buy a house. It was way to much imo for us to buy, and be responsible, so we had her make out the letter for an amount we were comfortable with, so our agent would not show us too extravagent of a house.

I have heard others on this board blame the republicans, and their deregulation, I have heard Obama ride McCain lately about him not wanting to regulate, and basically saying this is the problem. This bothers me, because I have always thought much of Governments involvement in this was the problem.

Anyways, I just wanted to start this to see your thoughts, and to give this link, from a liberal source, as far as I know, that follows my thoughts partially.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/09/AR2008060902626.html

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 12:22 PM
Personal responsibility doesn't seem to be a popular topic. Even if a bank , for example, is willing to lend you the money, don't we as individual knowing our personal expenses and spending practices KNOW what we can afford or not............to me it's like a DUH question...........many people bought way over their heads.........no one forced them to. There were also many investors that bought thinking that the market would afford them to flip those properties and make big bucks and when it didn't............well you know the rest of the story..........

poornate
09-17-2008, 01:31 PM
1. A lack of personal responsibility.
2. Financial deregulation.
3. We live in the age of entitlement.
4. Predatory lending.
5. Institutional deception of individuals.
6. The warping of the American dream.
7. Unresponsive government.
8. The affects of the sub-prime bust pulling down responsible borrowers. The problem has become self-perpetuating.
9. Rampant speculation.
10. Avarice, greed, and contempt for other people informed by the society of empty consumerism in which we live, which values nothing more than accumulation.

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 01:44 PM
Have you ever engaged in the “victim mentality”, and what did you do to get yourself turned around? Do you agree that the “victim mentality” is pervasive in our society?

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 01:48 PM
1. A lack of personal responsibility.
2. Financial deregulation.
3. We live in the age of entitlement.
4. Predatory lending.
5. Institutional deception of individuals.
6. The warping of the American dream.
7. Unresponsive government.
8. The affects of the sub-prime bust pulling down responsible borrowers. The problem has become self-perpetuating.
9. Rampant speculation.
10. Avarice, greed, and contempt for other people informed by the society of empty consumerism in which we live, which values nothing more than accumulation.


As someone that knows there is never just one place to lay blame, i have to say, you pretty well covered all the bases.

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 01:52 PM
I don't think the blame lies with just one individual, party, institution or branch of government. I think it should be shouldered on all, including ourselves.

But I have a better question.

How are we going to fix it?

Eshlemon
09-17-2008, 02:03 PM
Fed lowering of rates last 20 years or so in order to keep economy going by allowing easy credit and loans which the general population couldn't resist over-extending themselves. Silly to pay and budget for now when there's easy money out now there that can allow you to buy more junk now.

poornate
09-17-2008, 02:14 PM
But I have a better question.

How are we going to fix it?

I believe that of all things that could be considered for regulation, lending is near the top (the deregulation of of Agri-business probably takes the top spot for me). There exists so much room for abuse (both on the lending and borrowing side). As someone who is inextricably wedded to this mess.... I have to say that I don't know. i do know one thing.... i doubt that I will ever buy another home... I think that part of the "dream" died for me over the last three years. It upsets my wife to hear that, too... I can't help it... Do you know what it is like to come home to your nightmare? That is what i do everyday... i come home... i sleep, I eat, I play with my children, i read and I lay down at night in the physical maelstrom that is destroying my life and health.... I really sympathize with those going through what I am going through... i got pulled in... i am one of the most fiscally responsible people you will ever meet... And I have been crushed... a weight and measure like this economy doesn't necessarily choose who it kills according to the worthiness of it's victims...

For me?.... and I swear this is the truth... I will ride it out... no matter what it takes... i haven't missed a payment yet... not on the house... not the electricity... nothing.... i have had to cancel health insurance... i have no savings at all... my retirement account is gone.... I haven't traveled anywhere in almost three years... I haven't bought new clothes.... My son wears pink shirts and pants passed down from his sister.... I want to go get a haircut... I haven't done that since spring of 2006.... i want to take my wife to the movies.... the last one we went and saw was in October of 2005.... I want my kids to see the ocean while it is still so big... I miss having a normal life....

I'm too proud to take what my family tries to do for us... unless it came down to food, water... We did go without water for 12 days last winter... and without heat for two weeks winter before last.... I made $127,000.00 in 2004.... now I work for $12.12 an hour at nights... i am a full-time student.... i keep my kids for 11 hours a day while my wife teaches.... Everyday is around 18-19 hours long...I see my wife, literally, for minutes a day... i get two nights off a week and on those nights I am in school...It is relentless for me.... My health is suffering.... at 30 years old...I will not quit.... I have given everything up in this mess...I don't see friends or family.... i have no life anymore.... I miss weddings and funerals... All I have is ambition and a goal... Get out.... Get my family out.... keep fighting.... keep going.

I would be a liar if I said that part of my support for Barack Obama wasn't driven by this... To be honest... i live outside of DC.... if McCain wins the market confidence in DC, NoVa, and MD will plummet... I need at least the POTENTIAL for the change he promises, for more reasons than one...

MDFINFAN
09-17-2008, 02:34 PM
Have you ever engaged in the “victim mentality”, and what did you do to get yourself turned around? Do you agree that the “victim mentality” is pervasive in our society?

So I'm assuming you're putting the Fannies, Sach, AIG, Myrell, and others such notables in the victim category.. because they're asking for help..would that be accurate?

phinman1
09-17-2008, 02:38 PM
I have been hoping someone else would have started this thread by now, but I guess I will. Where does most of the blame lie with our current crisis generated by the subprime mortgages?

I believe there is blame enough to go around. You should not overlook the people that put their name on the dotted line. My wife, and I were really surprised when we bought our house a few years ago at the amount of money we were approved for to buy a house. It was way to much imo for us to buy, and be responsible, so we had her make out the letter for an amount we were comfortable with, so our agent would not show us too extravagent of a house.

I have heard others on this board blame the republicans, and their deregulation, I have heard Obama ride McCain lately about him not wanting to regulate, and basically saying this is the problem. This bothers me, because I have always thought much of Governments involvement in this was the problem.

Anyways, I just wanted to start this to see your thoughts, and to give this link, from a liberal source, as far as I know, that follows my thoughts partially.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/09/AR2008060902626.html

Good for you. If only other Americans had your common sense and sense of responsibility.

I don't believe in victims. The people who signed on the dotted line were looking to live beyond their means. In an American culture where your TV is never good enough, or house never big enough the sheep of America always thought they had to have bigger and better. This, despite the fact that they couldn't afford it.

Sure, the banks played a role, but nobody forced the money on the buyers. They knew all the facts, and still they acted imprudently. Now, we all have to bail these people out.

FinFatale
09-17-2008, 02:43 PM
So I'm assuming you're putting the Fannies, Sach, AIG, Myrell, and others such notables in the victim category.. because they're asking for help..would that be accurate?


No, MD, tsk! tsk! Never assume.........I haven't put anyone in anyone category I simply asked a couple of questions............inquiring minds want to know...........lol

milldog
09-17-2008, 02:51 PM
Unfortunately the only way our economy will begin to improve is when scared investors decide to dump their portfolios at the worst possible time. Like I said, unfortunately for those that chose to. The reason the rich stay rich is because they understand now is the best time to buy. It's inevitable that many will lose fortunes to jumpstart our ecenomy. The stock market, IMO, is the key element to our economy. I'm busting my hump to make ends meet, but I'm still investing as much as I can afford.

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 02:56 PM
Fed lowering of rates last 20 years or so in order to keep economy going by allowing easy credit and loans which the general population couldn't resist over-extending themselves. Silly to pay and budget for now when there's easy money out now there that can allow you to buy more junk now.Good point. And now picture the shark feeding frenzy of predatory lenders salivating over lower rates = higher profits.......and a crisis is born.

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 03:07 PM
I believe that of all things that could be considered for regulation, lending is near the top (the deregulation of of Agri-business probably takes the top spot for me). There exists so much room for abuse (both on the lending and borrowing side). As someone who is inextricably wedded to this mess.... I have to say that I don't know. i do know one thing.... i doubt that I will ever buy another home... I think that part of the "dream" died for me over the last three years. It upsets my wife to hear that, too... I can't help it... Do you know what it is like to come home to your nightmare? That is what i do everyday... i come home... i sleep, I eat, I play with my children, i read and I lay down at night in the physical maelstrom that is destroying my life and health.... I really sympathize with those going through what I am going through... i got pulled in... i am one of the most fiscally responsible people you will ever meet... And I have been crushed... a weight and measure like this economy doesn't necessarily choose who it kills according to the worthiness of it's victims...

For me?.... and I swear this is the truth... I will ride it out... no matter what it takes... i haven't missed a payment yet... not on the house... not the electricity... nothing.... i have had to cancel health insurance... i have no savings at all... my retirement account is gone.... I haven't traveled anywhere in almost three years... I haven't bought new clothes.... My son wears pink shirts and pants passed down from his sister.... I want to go get a haircut... I haven't done that since spring of 2006.... i want to take my wife to the movies.... the last one we went and saw was in October of 2005.... I want my kids to see the ocean while it is still so big... I miss having a normal life....

I'm too proud to take what my family tries to do for us... unless it came down to food, water... We did go without water for 12 days last winter... and without heat for two weeks winter before last.... I made $127,000.00 in 2004.... now I work for $12.12 an hour at nights... i am a full-time student.... i keep my kids for 11 hours a day while my wife teaches.... Everyday is around 18-19 hours long...I see my wife, literally, for minutes a day... i get two nights off a week and on those nights I am in school...It is relentless for me.... My health is suffering.... at 30 years old...I will not quit.... I have given everything up in this mess...I don't see friends or family.... i have no life anymore.... I miss weddings and funerals... All I have is ambition and a goal... Get out.... Get my family out.... keep fighting.... keep going.

I would be a liar if I said that part of my support for Barack Obama wasn't driven by this... To be honest... i live outside of DC.... if McCain wins the market confidence in DC, NoVa, and MD will plummet... I need at least the POTENTIAL for the change he promises, for more reasons than one...Dude - Hang in there. It will get better, just be patient.

I too had a six figure income in 2006. I took a manager job which turned out to be a mistake and now I have to rebuild (I am in sales). Instead of upgrading to a newer house, we upgraded our existing one. Gave it a re-model. Thus we are a little overextended right now.. My wife can't work until she heals from some medical problems she is dealing with, and money is tight. We bought our home in 1995 and at that time a swore off buying another home, the industry was and is just too darn greedy. The buyer for my old home made me pay for this and that, the seller of my new (used) home wouldn't pay for anything, then the realtors take their 5-6%, the banks etc....I felt everyone wanted a piece of me. I still to this day believe that I will be burried in my back yard. I am never moving again, God forbid.

Don't give up on your dream. You will realize it again. Only this time it will mean more and be worth more.

WSE
09-17-2008, 03:30 PM
to me, both the government and people spend money they dont have

right now, the govt is spending it on a pointless war, and people on these mortgages, taking loans they cant pay back.

Dolphan7
09-17-2008, 03:55 PM
And those tax cuts and stimulus checks, all on borrowed money.

Not that I am complaining, but our government really needs to get a grip on the budget.

poornate
09-17-2008, 03:56 PM
Dude - Hang in there. It will get better, just be patient.

I too had a six figure income in 2006. I took a manager job which turned out to be a mistake and now I have to rebuild (I am in sales).

Don't give up on your dream. You will realize it again. Only this time it will mean more and be worth more.

I am living me dream in some ways... i don't want that big salary again... evn if the market could provide it... I was in sales, too... I want to go back to teaching.... I'm not giving up my dream... i am fighting for it... i just realize that my dream has changed... what i do want to give up is a payment of $4000.00 a month towards mortgages.... I'm just wore out from the fighting... I need sleep... i need family time.... I need to make the pounding in my head stop... I just need a break.... and it all goes away when i can sell this house... The price I can, and will, take is $223,000.00 less than what i was offered 40 months ago... and we are still in it... I got it appraised a few months ago... I will take $97,000.000 less than that appraisal... It has nothing to do with money... it has to do with physical and spiritual freedom... I want to be free of want... and fear... I'm just wore out... and it gets harder everyday.

WSE
09-17-2008, 04:14 PM
And those tax cuts and stimulus checks, all on borrowed money.

Not that I am complaining, but our government really needs to get a grip on the budget.

definitely. That is part of the government part of my post. I just listed the one that costs 10 billion a month, lol.

We do need to cut spending, starting with the war.

milldog
09-17-2008, 09:19 PM
I am living me dream in some ways... i don't want that big salary again... evn if the market could provide it... I was in sales, too... I want to go back to teaching.... I'm not giving up my dream... i am fighting for it... i just realize that my dream has changed... what i do want to give up is a payment of $4000.00 a month towards mortgages.... I'm just wore out from the fighting... I need sleep... i need family time.... I need to make the pounding in my head stop... I just need a break.... and it all goes away when i can sell this house... The price I can, and will, take is $223,000.00 less than what i was offered 40 months ago... and we are still in it... I got it appraised a few months ago... I will take $97,000.000 less than that appraisal... It has nothing to do with money... it has to do with physical and spiritual freedom... I want to be free of want... and fear... I'm just wore out... and it gets harder everyday.

Holy cow! Man I feel for you my man, hang in there. Easier said than done though, I'm sure. Just when it feels as if we've hit bottom, another disaster strikes. You're young like me so I know things will get better but were guaranteed more crisis's in our lifetime, we just have to be careful to not make same mistakes twice. God bless!:up:

poornate
09-17-2008, 09:46 PM
Holy cow! Man I feel for you my man, hang in there. Easier said than done though, I'm sure. Just when it feels as if we've hit bottom, another disaster strikes. ..... we just have to be careful to not make same mistakes twice. God bless!:up:

The reason it hurts so bad is that i didn't make any mistakes... I put 20% down on my house... i financed for 30 years on a low, LOW fixed rate loan... I did buy another house before selling the one I live in... I put 30% down on that one... also a fixed rate... we moved with the expectation of being debt free and pocketing no less than $100,000.00... No mistakes... that was assuming that I dropped my asking price $35,000.00 to facilitate a quick sale....

Disasters, huh? I got home twenty minutes ago to have my wife tell me that the people renting our other house are moving out at the end of next month.... That's another disaster for our family.... I'm drowning in disasters...

milldog
09-17-2008, 09:55 PM
The reason it hurts so bad is that i didn't make any mistakes... I put 20% down on my house... i financed for 30 years on a low, LOW fixed rate loan... I did buy another house before selling the one I live in... I put 30% down on that one... also a fixed rate... we moved with the expectation of being debt free and pocketing no less than $100,000.00... No mistakes... that was assuming that I dropped my asking price $35,000.00 to facilitate a quick sale....

Disasters, huh? I got home twenty minutes ago to have my wife tell me that the people renting our other house are moving out at the end of next month.... That's another disaster for our family.... I'm drowning in disasters...

In no way was I trying to imply you've made a mistake. Sorry if you took it that way!

poornate
09-17-2008, 10:19 PM
In no way was I trying to imply you've made a mistake. Sorry if you took it that way!

I didn't take it personally... something about impending doom just makes me feel salty...

phinman1
09-17-2008, 10:23 PM
And those tax cuts and stimulus checks, all on borrowed money.

Not that I am complaining, but our government really needs to get a grip on the budget.

We were in a deficit BEFORE the Iraq War. Never in the history of this country has that occurred. The war is going to cost 3 trillion dollars by some estimates. We don't have it. The government has no money and is in massive debt, yet it is bailing out companies to the tune of what, $315 million. Tell me, who is going to bail out the U.S.?

The government actually started printing more money in response to this crisis. That means the dollar will be worth even less and everything will cost even more.

Buckle up. It's going to get ugly for a lot of people. A lot of good people. This is what you get when you have no leadership or accountability whatsoever in government. The leadership in the White House and in Congress has been an absolute disgrace.

MoFinz
09-17-2008, 10:28 PM
The reason it hurts so bad is that i didn't make any mistakes... I put 20% down on my house... i financed for 30 years on a low, LOW fixed rate loan... I did buy another house before selling the one I live in... I put 30% down on that one... also a fixed rate... we moved with the expectation of being debt free and pocketing no less than $100,000.00... No mistakes... that was assuming that I dropped my asking price $35,000.00 to facilitate a quick sale....

Disasters, huh? I got home twenty minutes ago to have my wife tell me that the people renting our other house are moving out at the end of next month.... That's another disaster for our family.... I'm drowning in disasters...

I know it's hard for you brother. The market up there is so overpriced to start with, and this mortgage fiasco isn't helping any.

For what it's worth, i'll put you and your family in my prayers. I hope it all works out in the end for you the way you want it to

poornate
09-17-2008, 10:50 PM
Mo... pray for lightning and that I get the wife and kids out quick enough....

Dolphan7
09-18-2008, 12:13 AM
We were in a deficit BEFORE the Iraq War. Never in the history of this country has that occurred. The war is going to cost 3 trillion dollars by some estimates. We don't have it. The government has no money and is in massive debt, yet it is bailing out companies to the tune of what, $315 million. Tell me, who is going to bail out the U.S.?

The government actually started printing more money in response to this crisis. That means the dollar will be worth even less and everything will cost even more.

Buckle up. It's going to get ugly for a lot of people. A lot of good people. This is what you get when you have no leadership or accountability whatsoever in government. The leadership in the White House and in Congress has been an absolute disgrace.
Well now there is something we can agree on. Our Government has been fiscally irresponsible for far too long. Time to get someone in there that will cut government spending, cut pork barrel spending, cut earmarks, keep taxes low for everyone and work to balance the budget.