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View Full Version : Paying High Taxes is the "Patriotic" thing to do.



Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 08:42 AM
This is madness.






Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Biden said Thursday that paying more in taxes is the patriotic thing to do for wealthier Americans. The Republican campaign for president calls the tax increases their Democratic opponents propose "painful" instead of patriotic.

Under the economic plan proposed by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, people earning more than $250,000 a year would pay more in taxes while those earning less — the vast majority of American taxpayers — would receive a tax cut.

"We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people," Biden said in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America."
Noting that wealthier Americans would indeed pay more, Biden said: "It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut."

Republican presidential candidate John McCain released a television ad Thursday charging that Obama would increase the size of the federal government amid an economic crisis. Contending that "a big government casts a big shadow on us all," the ad features the image of a shadow slowly covering a sleeping baby as it exaggerates the reach of the Obama tax proposal.

"Obama and his liberal congressional allies want a massive government, billions in spending increases, wasteful pork," the ad says. "And we would pay — painful income taxes, skyrocketing taxes on life savings, electricity and home heating oil. Can your family afford that?"
The McCain campaign said the ad is set to run nationally.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_el_pr/biden_taxes



Patriotic thing to do? The Patriotic thing to do is to have a government that follows and defends the Constitution. A government that doesn't put us in debt. A government that doesn't over tax, over spend and takes away our liberty. That's the Patriotic thing to do Mr. Biden. He along with the majority of this country have forgotten why we had a Revolution to begin with. The founding fathers started a Revolution for less than this. I can't believe that I'm hearing this crap. Higher taxes is the Patriotic thing to do. This makes me really angry that a vp candidate would say such a thing and have no clue what our country and constitution is about.

Raising taxes is not the answer. Especially when you plan to expand government and spending. And don't give me this nonsense about 95% tax cuts. You can't cut taxes while expanding government and spending. It doesn't work. It never will. It's nothing but an illusion. Smoke and Mirrors. Obama will add 4 to 5 trillion dollars to the debt. So Biden wants to raise taxes and put us even more in debt than we are now. And he has the nerve to call that "Patriotic". Raising Taxes, Expanding Government and Spending, Expanding the Debt and taking away our liberties . Is one of the most Unpatriotic things to do.

I got news for you. If you think Obama is only going to raise taxes on the rich. Then you have been fooled. Obama would have to raise taxes on everyone. And that would still not be enough. 4 to 5 trillion of debt. 10 years of deficits. And we're getting a tax cut? Yeah I believe that. Debt Please!

LouPhinFan
09-18-2008, 09:35 AM
That's the big thing that makes me not vote for him. He promised to cut taxes, add programs (increase spending), and balance the budget. Except noone can do all 3 of those things. He's not going to be able to raise taxes on the elite tax bracket and cut spending enough to pay for all the new programs that he wants. He's realized that and has backed off of some of his promises, but in my opinion his financial plan is dangerous for this country. And the current financial climate is dangerous enough for me...

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 10:35 AM
I wonder why Joe doesn't overpay on his taxes then? Nobody says you can't overpay, the Govt. is more than glad to take the money if you want to donate to it. So go ahead Joe...lead by example...let's see how patriotic you really are. And i promise i will match a dime for ever 100 dollars you donate, since thats about the diparity in our wealth. I'll pay my share if you pay yours.

I'm waiting

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 11:32 AM
That's the big thing that makes me not vote for him. He promised to cut taxes, add programs (increase spending), and balance the budget. Except noone can do all 3 of those things. He's not going to be able to raise taxes on the elite tax bracket and cut spending enough to pay for all the new programs that he wants. He's realized that and has backed off of some of his promises, but in my opinion his financial plan is dangerous for this country. And the current financial climate is dangerous enough for me...

Lou, that's not true...He's only carrying high earners tax rate back to the Clinton tax rate, it's not like going to take them to emph degree up. The only gov't program so to speak is health care, so it's not programs, it's program...and that won't totally be gov't, since he's not trying to knock out the private sector..have you guys read his plan at all...I keep telling you to read both McCain's and Obam's plans on their website, and then get independent analysis of both, in the end McCain's plan cost more than Obama's. Check me out on that statement.... He has to cut spending, the sad state of this economy demands it. Either guy first year won't be about their plans as they want it..they will have to deal with the shortfalls of this year's lack of money.. Again his finanicial plan is more sound than McCain's. AGain do independent verification..if you had, you'd never made that statement his financial plan is dangerous.. Check out the minds he's surrounded himself with on economics..these are proven ppl who's delievered before..

Sometimes I think you guys just talk without checking...because you're going for a party instead of best canidate. If you check McCain's 5K tax credit for his healthcare plan, it's possible your employer may stop your healthcare plan, give you a small increase in salary and said use the tax credit McCain gives you...but the catch is, the normal plan cost employers anywhere from 8-12k a year. So you'll be struck with an extra 3-7k out of pocket...which mean everyone will be scambling for the cheapest plan..and we know what that's like.

If you look at McCain's financial plan, it's almost a mirror image of Bush except McCain wants to cut top rates to 26% even more than Bush, so you tell me if he's bringing in less money, how the hell he's going to pay for his healthcare plan, finish the wars, and find another stupid war to get into.. YOU GUYS NEED TO SERIOUSLY RESEARCH THIS. You do have an idea of where Bush plan took us.. and you know where Clinton's tax rate took us..basically the same rate Obama is proposing..

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/10/fiscalconservatives-1.jpg

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 11:42 AM
That's the big thing that makes me not vote for him. He promised to cut taxes, add programs (increase spending), and balance the budget. Except noone can do all 3 of those things. He's not going to be able to raise taxes on the elite tax bracket and cut spending enough to pay for all the new programs that he wants. He's realized that and has backed off of some of his promises, but in my opinion his financial plan is dangerous for this country. And the current financial climate is dangerous enough for me...


The Tax Policy Center estimates that even raising taxes on the Rich would not be no where near enough. He would have to raise taxes on everyone. And he will still have a major amount of debt. 4 to 5 trillion is the lowball estimate because that doesn't include his Health Plan and any other spending extravanganzas he has planned. 10 years of deficits is what they project even with raising taxes. So here come Biden telling us that paying High Taxes is the "Patriotic" thing to do. What he doesn't tell you and won't tell you. Is that Obama will also add trillions more to the debt while raising your "Patriotic" taxes. Can someone explain the patriotism in that to me?

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 11:53 AM
Lou, that's not true...He's only carrying high earners tax rate back to the Clinton tax rate, it's not like going to take them to emph degree up. The only gov't program so to speak is health care, so it's not programs, it's program...and that won't totally be gov't, since he's not trying to knock out the private sector..have you guys read his plan at all...I keep telling you to read both McCain's and Obam's plans on their website, and then get independent analysis of both, in the end McCain's plan cost more than Obama's. Check me out on that statement.... He has to cut spending, the sad state of this economy demands it. Either guy first year won't be about their plans as they want it..they will have to deal with the shortfalls of this year's lack of money.. Again his finanicial plan is more sound than McCain's. AGain do independent verification..if you had, you'd never made that statement his financial plan is dangerous.. Check out the minds he's surrounded himself with on economics..these are proven ppl who's delievered before..

Sometimes I think you guys just talk without checking...because you're going for a party instead of best canidate. If you check McCain's 5K tax credit for his healthcare plan, it's possible your employer may stop your healthcare plan, give you a small increase in salary and said use the tax credit McCain gives you...but the catch is, the normal plan cost employers anywhere from 8-12k a year. So you'll be struck with an extra 3-7k out of pocket...which mean everyone will be scambling for the cheapest plan..and we know what that's like.

If you look at McCain's financial plan, it's almost a mirror image of Bush except McCain wants to cut top rates to 26% even more than Bush, so you tell me if he's bringing in less money, how the hell he's going to pay for his healthcare plan, finish the wars, and find another stupid war to get into.. YOU GUYS NEED TO SERIOUSLY RESEARCH THIS. You do have an idea of where Bush plan took us.. and you know where Clinton's tax rate took us..basically the same rate Obama is proposing..

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/10/fiscalconservatives-1.jpg



The Tax Policy center did the research. And they concluded that Obama and Mccain will add 4 to 5 trillion to the debt. And that we would have 10 years of deficits. You bash Mccains plan as being the same as Bush. But guess what. Obama's plan has the same exact results as both of them. More Big Government, More Spending, More Debt. His plan is the same as well. Neither candidate or party is giving us a government that doesn't put us in major debt. Both sides have the same result. DEBT!!!! What makes me sick is Biden telling us paying high taxes along with adding another 4 to 5 trillion dollars to the debt is the "Patriotic" thing to do. It's not. It's the total opposite. So now we have to pay more money for a government to add even more money to the debt? No thanks. We need another Boston Tea Party. But instead of throwing boxes overboard. We should throw politicians overboard.

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 11:59 AM
The Tax Policy center did the research. And they concluded that Obama and Mccain will add 4 to 5 trillion to the debt. And that we would have 10 years of deficits. You bash Mccains plan as being the same as Bush. But guess what. Obama's plan has the same exact results as both of them. More Big Government, More Spending, More Debt. His plan is the same as well. Neither candidate or party is giving us a government that doesn't put us in major debt. Both sides have the same result. DEBT!!!! What makes me sick is Biden telling us paying high taxes along with adding another 4 to 5 trillion dollars to the debt is the "Patriotic" thing to do. It's not. It's the total opposite. So now we have to pay more money for a government to add even more money to the debt? No thanks. We need another Boston Tea Party. But instead of throwing boxes overboard. We should throw politicians overboard.


And which plan did the tax center say would cost the most...because I'd read it before too...:up:

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 12:03 PM
And which plan did the tax center say would cost the most...because I'd read it before too...:up:

Ahhh...so you admit, you're voting for the lesser of two evils....:up:

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 12:11 PM
And which plan did the tax center say would cost the most...because I'd read it before too...:up:


Then reread it. Because both of them will add a ton of debt. And years of deficits. 10 years to be exact. If you can explain to me how paying more money for a government to add tons more of debt. Is the Patriotic thing to do. I'm listening. Just don't mind the part where I throw up.







Obama said he could “pay for every dime” of his spending and tax cut proposals “by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens.” That’s wrong – his proposed tax increases on upper-income individuals are key components of paying for his program, as well. And his plan, like McCain’s, would leave the U.S. facing big budget deficits, according to independent experts.


Obama: Now, many of these plans will cost money, which is why I’ve laid out how I’ll pay for every dime – by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens that don’t help America grow.


This is misleading. Even by his own campaign’s estimates, closing corporate loopholes and tax havens won’t pay for all of Obama’s new plans. In July, the campaign told the Los Angeles Times that they estimate the yearly cost of their proposed tax cuts at $130 billion (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obamaplans8-2008jul08,0,5470706.story?page=1). They put revenue from closing tax loopholes at just $80 billion. Obama also proposes to raise taxes to pre-Bush levels for families earning more than $250,000 a year and singles making more than $200,000, yielding additional revenue. But he didn't mention that in his speech.

But Obama’s claim is misleading on another level. According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, "without substantial cuts in government spending" Obama’s plan – and McCain's, too – "would substantially increase the national debt over the next ten years (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411750_updated_candidates_summary.pdf)." Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor told FactCheck.org that the Tax Policy Center's analysis "fails to take in account Senator Obama's spending cuts, including ending the Iraq war." That's true, but Obama's proposed cuts are dwarfed by the Tax Policy Center's projected deficits. Obama’s new spending programs might be completely offset by new revenue and spending cuts. But overall spending will still exceed overall revenue, and the nation would face at least 10 more years of annual deficits.





http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html



Like I said before. No "change" coming. Only a crap load of more debt. And higher "Patriotic" taxes to go with it.

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 12:14 PM
Ahhh...so you admit, you're voting for the lesser of two evils....:up:


That's what it amounts to. When you vote for the lesser of two evils. You're still voting for evil.

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 12:19 PM
Then reread it. Because both of them will add a ton of debt. And years of deficits. 10 years to be exact. If you can explain to me how paying more money for a government to add tons more of debt. Is the Patriotic thing to do. I'm listening. Just don't mind the part where I throw up.







http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html



Like I said before. No "change" coming. Only a crap load of more debt. And higher "Patriotic" taxes to go with it.

Why didn't you bold this part "Obama’s new spending programs might be completely offset by new revenue and spending cuts"

and you didn't answer my question, which plan will cost the most?

I understood both plans would cost, I've never disputed that..

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 12:26 PM
Ahhh...so you admit, you're voting for the lesser of two evils....:up:

:sidelol::sidelol: Well the plan's cost do factor into my decisions... I just think if you cut high earners taxes more than they are now, and introduce spending programs, and McCain's health proposal is a spending program too...he's nicely disgust it as a tax credit, but someone has to pay for that credit, then it's a spending program too.. You can't do it.. At least I see a chance in Obama's spending, as he'll give a tax cut to the ppl who spend the most, and what does our economy need for us to do...spend.. So if the ppl who spend the most have a little extra income, there's a chance the economy can grow and thus the gov't take in more revenue. Rich ppl will just take their tax cut and put it with the rest of their off shore money and the american economy won't see a dime..

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 12:32 PM
Why didn't you bold this part "Obama’s new spending programs might be completely offset by new revenue and spending cuts"

and you didn't answer my question, which plan will cost the most?

I understood both plans would cost, I've never disputed that..


Because I thought this cancels that out.



but Obama's proposed cuts are dwarfed by the Tax Policy Center's projected deficits.



And this as well.




But overall spending will still exceed overall revenue, and the nation would face at least 10 more years of annual deficits.





MoFinz is right. You're using the lesser of two evils approach. Both Mccain's and Obama's plan will put us in major debt. So what the hell is the difference? It's like putting lipstick on a pig. (sorry I had to do it) What makes Obama's plan scary is that he would raise taxes and still put us in a ton of debt. Not exactly the "Patriotic" thing to do.

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 12:55 PM
:sidelol::sidelol: Well the plan's cost do factor into my decisions... I just think if you cut high earners taxes more than they are now, and introduce spending programs, and McCain's health proposal is a spending program too...he's nicely disgust it as a tax credit, but someone has to pay for that credit, then it's a spending program too.. You can't do it.. At least I see a chance in Obama's spending, as he'll give a tax cut to the ppl who spend the most, and what does our economy need for us to do...spend.. So if the ppl who spend the most have a little extra income, there's a chance the economy can grow and thus the gov't take in more revenue. Rich ppl will just take their tax cut and put it with the rest of their off shore money and the american economy won't see a dime..


So tax cuts while expanding government and spending is going to work? Didn't our current president try that. And guess what. It didn't work. Never has never will. I have an idea. How bout we Cut government. Cut Spending. Cut the deficits and debt. Then have tax cuts. Because that's the only way it will work.

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 01:09 PM
So tax cuts while expanding government and spending is going to work? Didn't our current president try that. And guess what. It didn't work. Never has never will. I have an idea. How bout we Cut government. Cut Spending. Cut the deficits and debt. Then have tax cuts. Because that's the only way it will work.

I think you missed my point D9954, the recent tax cuts went to the higher earners.. thus it didn't work....as I pointed out, there's not enough higher earners to spend across the board....it has to be the avg. american joe. They spend us out of troubled times, but they need the income to do so.
Thus I say I support cutting taxes for middle americans because they buy everyday goods and neccessities that drive our economy. Rich ppl shelter their money, other than the stock market, they pretty much take it out of the ordinary day to day economy. You can't play stock, without earnings happening at the business level...businesses have to make money on their investments to pay dividends...thats selling a good to some consumer..most of those consumers reside in the middle and lower class. Thus the business make money, pay dividends to rich who invest... and of course the middleclass help investment with their 401ks.. so it's healthy all around for everyone to have money..not just the rich. the rich also engage in putting money off shore, which again doesn't help the economy, it's one of their shelters...that's why I don't get upside with taxing them more, so we get a little back from their real earnings... and no they won't leave, America has been too good to them, and they need to help her now.

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 01:49 PM
I think you missed my point D9954, the recent tax cuts went to the higher earners.. thus it didn't work....as I pointed out, there's not enough higher earners to spend across the board....it has to be the avg. american joe. They spend us out of troubled times, but they need the income to do so.
Thus I say I support cutting taxes for middle americans because they buy everyday goods and neccessities that drive our economy. Rich ppl shelter their money, other than the stock market, they pretty much take it out of the ordinary day to day economy. You can't play stock, without earnings happening at the business level...businesses have to make money on their investments to pay dividends...thats selling a good to some consumer..most of those consumers reside in the middle and lower class. Thus the business make money, pay dividends to rich who invest... and of course the middleclass help investment with their 401ks.. so it's healthy all around for everyone to have money..not just the rich. the rich also engage in putting money off shore, which again doesn't help the economy, it's one of their shelters...that's why I don't get upside with taxing them more, so we get a little back from their real earnings... and no they won't leave, America has been too good to them, and they need to help her now.


I agree with Tax cuts. I'm 100% for them. For everyone. What I'm against is expanding Government and Spending along with it. The Tax Policy Center says that Obama can't pay for his plan. That's a fact. Even if he taxed the rich more. He still will have a huge shortfall that will lead to major amounts of debt. So this 95% tax cut is an illusion. How is our economy and country going to get any better by adding trillions more of debt? We're around 10 trillion now. What will it be like when it's 14 to 15 trillion. Can you imagine what it would do to the dollar. You also have the Federal Reserve printing money out of thin air and flooded our economy with it. But neither party will do anything about that. So the tax cuts mean nothing when you have all this debt. And a currency that's worth nothing. Cut Government and Spending dramatically. Stop with all the debt. Then have tax cuts. That's the only way you can cut taxes and not put the country in record amounts of debt. So Obama would have to raise taxes on everyone not just the rich. And that wouldn't be enough because.......


overall spending will still exceed overall revenue, and the nation would face at least 10 more years of annual deficits.




Voting for the lesser of two evils is still evil.

Dolphan7
09-18-2008, 01:50 PM
No matter what, we need to cut spending, not try to get more money from the tax payers, in this case the rich. It doesn't work. It never has worked. Bush's tax cuts are great, but we failed to cut spending, and the war didn't help.

Cut spending, Cut spending, Cut spending.

Which candidate has a record and a tremendous passion to cut government spending?

Hmmmm?

Hey look guys new programs are nice, but not at this time in history. We are in a financial crisis and we don't need to go buy more stuff when the money tree is withering.

When we as individuals run into hard times, as many of us are going through, we have simply two main budget items to look at - our income and our expenses. If we can't increase our income, and in many cases this is the hardest of the two, then we must cut our expenditures. Things like pool service, cable tv, phone service options (once upon a time), gym memberships, magazine subscriptions etc and thelist goes on and on. Next we look at our debt like car loans and credit cards and other loans and try to pay them off or consolidate them under a more favorable interest rate. Next is the utilities and how to reduce them. Energy efficient light bulbs, reduce irrigation watering times, take faster showers, install sensors to run your lights so that you don't end up leaving a light on in your closet while you are away from the house for a week. Watch your descretionary spending, ask yourself - do I really need this right now - today? Make fewer trips. Make lists of what you need from the store to avoid having to go right back the next hour, or the next day. Plan your route to make sure you aren't wasting time and gas doubling back constantly. Little things like that make a difference, trust me.

These are all the things one needs to do to become solvent. I have done these things, and I am doing them today.

This is what we need our government to do. I didn't mention buying more stuff when the money was tight did I . This is what both candidates want to do - can't do that. They want to do it all, but the sad reality is in the next four years they will only be able to accomplish one or two.

Must cut spending first and foremost. You just can't keep going back to the taxpayers with your hand out, or giving tax breaks to people who won't spend it on descretionary items.

I don't know how simpler I can make it.

FinFatale
09-18-2008, 02:00 PM
I just can't figure out where Senator Obama is going to get ALL THE MONEY he is going to need to meet all the promises he has made. Sometimes he sounds to me like my friend's little guy with the Christmas catalogue........I want this, this and this and this and this and this and this..............I am sure some of you get my point....where is the money going to come from???? we are in debt now.........more debt.......more taxes when people are taxed up the yingyang now..............and you know what some " rich " people have honestly earned their wealth.....it didn't fall into their laps.....so in some cases hardwork gets punished??? is that the American way????????
By the way does anyone?? anyone??? know the tax on a box of rocks??????????LOL

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 02:18 PM
I just can't figure out where Senator Obama is going to get ALL THE MONEY he is going to need to meet all the promises he has made. Sometimes he sounds to me like my friend's little guy with the Christmas catalogue........I want this, this and this and this and this and this and this..............I am sure some of you get my point....where is the money going to come from???? we are in debt now.........more debt.......more taxes when people are taxed up the yingyang now..............and you know what some " rich " people have honestly earned their wealth.....it didn't fall into their laps.....so in some cases hardwork gets punished??? is that the American way????????
By the way does anyone?? anyone??? know the tax on a box of rocks??????????LOL

Speaking for a whole generation of disenfranchised rocks, i tell you, we will not be taxed by this oppressive and religious zealot led government.

We claim non tax status as Holy Rocks, whereby we incur no taxes, but encourage our congregation of rocks to vote for whichever box of rocks we feel will support our agenda....the elimination of the gravel tax on dead rocks families and the abolition of Rock V. Wade and the genocide of generations of innocent bedrocks.;)

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 02:26 PM
No matter what, we need to cut spending, not try to get more money from the tax payers, in this case the rich. It doesn't work. It never has worked. Bush's tax cuts are great, but we failed to cut spending, and the war didn't help.

Cut spending, Cut spending, Cut spending.

Which candidate has a record and a tremendous passion to cut government spending?

Hmmmm?

Hey look guys new programs are nice, but not at this time in history. We are in a financial crisis and we don't need to go buy more stuff when the money tree is withering.

When we as individuals run into hard times, as many of us are going through, we have simply two main budget items to look at - our income and our expenses. If we can't increase our income, and in many cases this is the hardest of the two, then we must cut our expenditures. Things like pool service, cable tv, phone service options (once upon a time), gym memberships, magazine subscriptions etc and thelist goes on and on. Next we look at our debt like car loans and credit cards and other loans and try to pay them off or consolidate them under a more favorable interest rate. Next is the utilities and how to reduce them. Energy efficient light bulbs, reduce irrigation watering times, take faster showers, install sensors to run your lights so that you don't end up leaving a light on in your closet while you are away from the house for a week. Watch your descretionary spending, ask yourself - do I really need this right now - today? Make fewer trips. Make lists of what you need from the store to avoid having to go right back the next hour, or the next day. Plan your route to make sure you aren't wasting time and gas doubling back constantly. Little things like that make a difference, trust me.

These are all the things one needs to do to become solvent. I have done these things, and I am doing them today.

This is what we need our government to do. I didn't mention buying more stuff when the money was tight did I . This is what both candidates want to do - can't do that. They want to do it all, but the sad reality is in the next four years they will only be able to accomplish one or two.

Must cut spending first and foremost. You just can't keep going back to the taxpayers with your hand out, or giving tax breaks to people who won't spend it on descretionary items.

I don't know how simpler I can make it.

Are you sure taxing the rich won't work as long as we cut spending...??

It's only been tried one time in the last 20 years and here's the results.

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/10/fiscalconservatives-1.jpg

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 02:28 PM
I agree with Tax cuts. I'm 100% for them. For everyone. What I'm against is expanding Government and Spending along with it. The Tax Policy Center says that Obama can't pay for his plan. That's a fact. Even if he taxed the rich more. He still will have a huge shortfall that will lead to major amounts of debt. So this 95% tax cut is an illusion. How is our economy and country going to get any better by adding trillions more of debt? We're around 10 trillion now. What will it be like when it's 14 to 15 trillion. Can you imagine what it would do to the dollar. You also have the Federal Reserve printing money out of thin air and flooded our economy with it. But neither party will do anything about that. So the tax cuts mean nothing when you have all this debt. And a currency that's worth nothing. Cut Government and Spending dramatically. Stop with all the debt. Then have tax cuts. That's the only way you can cut taxes and not put the country in record amounts of debt. So Obama would have to raise taxes on everyone not just the rich. And that wouldn't be enough because.......





Voting for the lesser of two evils is still evil.

I agree, spending has got to be within the means of what is brought in and not exceeded...no argument there.. but first we have to fix this economy, that may require going into debt the first 2 years of who ever is president.

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 02:29 PM
I just can't figure out where Senator Obama is going to get ALL THE MONEY he is going to need to meet all the promises he has made. Sometimes he sounds to me like my friend's little guy with the Christmas catalogue........I want this, this and this and this and this and this and this..............I am sure some of you get my point....where is the money going to come from???? we are in debt now.........more debt.......more taxes when people are taxed up the yingyang now..............and you know what some " rich " people have honestly earned their wealth.....it didn't fall into their laps.....so in some cases hardwork gets punished??? is that the American way????????
By the way does anyone?? anyone??? know the tax on a box of rocks??????????LOL



He will get it from here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcpXFERiR4

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 02:32 PM
I just can't figure out where Senator Obama is going to get ALL THE MONEY he is going to need to meet all the promises he has made. Sometimes he sounds to me like my friend's little guy with the Christmas catalogue........I want this, this and this and this and this and this and this..............I am sure some of you get my point....where is the money going to come from???? we are in debt now.........more debt.......more taxes when people are taxed up the yingyang now..............and you know what some " rich " people have honestly earned their wealth.....it didn't fall into their laps.....so in some cases hardwork gets punished??? is that the American way????????
By the way does anyone?? anyone??? know the tax on a box of rocks??????????LOL

I only see one spending proposal and that's healthcare.. what's the all?
Do you see where McCain's going to get the money for all his proposals?
Please break that down as well. Thanks.

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 02:48 PM
I agree, spending has got to be within the means of what is brought in and not exceeded...no argument there.. but first we have to fix this economy, that may require going into debt the first 2 years of who ever is president.


Who ever is president is going to add a ton of debt for alot more than 2 years. It's more like 10 years. I disagree 100%. We need to cut spending and debt now! Not years from now. That would be the best thing for the economy and the dollar. Not to mention ending the Federal Reserve as well. Their actions are destroying our currency with inflation. But Obama and Mccain won't do that because they need them. To print more money out of thin air for them. Or borrow it from China. The best thing to do when you're in a hole is to stop digging. Obama and Mccain want to keep digging to China. Literally.

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 02:56 PM
Are you sure taxing the rich won't work as long as we cut spending...??

It's only been tried one time in the last 20 years and here's the results.

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/10/fiscalconservatives-1.jpg

Anyone remember what Clinton cut spending on?

Anyone?

The Mil.......The Mili.....The Military....

Clinton gutted the military and thus created a budget surplus, helped by the revenues generated from taxing people that got rich on the tech....the tech??....the tech bubble...which burst, and created a spiraling effect on what institution????
(credit to Ben Stein, Ferris Buellers Day Off)

poornate
09-18-2008, 03:03 PM
I think saying that he gutted the military is a bit of a reach, don't you?

MoFinz
09-18-2008, 03:06 PM
I think saying that he gutted the military is a bit of a reach, don't you?

Youre right...he merely removed the operating organs, froze military pay rates and squeezed money from intelligence.

Gutting may be a bit harsh....of course, it's not totally untrue now is it?

Dolphan7
09-18-2008, 03:18 PM
Are you sure taxing the rich won't work as long as we cut spending...??

It's only been tried one time in the last 20 years and here's the results.

You mean Clinton?


While not defending the increase of the federal debt under President Bush, it is aggravating seeing Clinton's record promoted as having generated a surplus. It never happened. There was never a surplus and the cold hard facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.



http://www.letxa.com/articles/16

poornate
09-18-2008, 03:30 PM
... he merely continued what Bush began... and yet our military budget was still, what? 10 times larger than the number two nation? plus his last budget raised pay at the biggest rate since 1982 and he INCREASED spending on the military as a whole... personnel were cut down (and should have been) but to ask him to wear the "gutting" of the military is a stretch...

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 04:02 PM
You mean Clinton?





http://www.letxa.com/articles/16

A very poor site to use for this discussion, look at their defense of taxes for rich, they use the poor and rich only in the discussion and no middle class..and no hard numbers in terms of dollars.

http://www.letxa.com/articles/9


Today, there is a government budget surplus projected at $200 billion a year as far as the eye can see. But the Democrats have so distanced themselves from public spending that the most imaginative thing Clinton and Gore can think to do is to pay off the national debt a year earlier.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=did_clinton_succeed_or_fail


Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Oklahoma, chairman of the House Republican Conference, said the GOP wants 90 percent of the surplus used for the debt. In a CNN interview, he said the other 10 percent should be used to "take care of a lot of priorities we have, like prescription drugs, making sure that our education needs are met, making sure some of our national security needs are met, and doing that while at the same time protecting the Social Security surplus and the Medicare surplus."

So the repubs obviously throught the surplus was real too..
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/27/clinton.surplus/

I stand by my image::wink:

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/10/fiscalconservatives-1.jpg

Dolphan7
09-18-2008, 04:25 PM
A very poor site to use for this discussion, look at their defense of taxes for rich, they use the poor and rich only in the discussion and no middle class..and no hard numbers in terms of dollars.

http://www.letxa.com/articles/9
Wrong article MD.


http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=did_clinton_succeed_or_fail



So the repubs obviously throught the surplus was real too..
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/27/clinton.surplus/

I stand by my image::wink:

I am sure everyone thinks it is/was a surplus, but you can't argue with them figures. Public debt is one thing, total national debt is entirely another. It just depends on how you look at it. I am not saying we can take the Mantle from Clinton and the Pub Congress, but when we refer to the surplus, we need to qualify what we are talking about.

I didn't intend to post this article, I just found it while looking for something else and thought it would be a good response to your favorite cartoon!

MDFINFAN
09-18-2008, 04:31 PM
Wrong article MD.

I am sure everyone thinks it is/was a surplus, but you can't argue with them figures. Public debt is one thing, total national debt is entirely another. It just depends on how you look at it. I am not saying we can take the Mantle from Clinton and the Pub Congress, but when we refer to the surplus, we need to qualify what we are talking about.

I didn't intend to post this article, I just found it while looking for something else and thought it would be a good response to your favorite cartoon!

Agreed, the surplus had nothing to do with National debt, it's the yearly budget...any surplus of that could be used to pay down the national debt..I thought everyone understood that.:up:

Dolphins9954
09-18-2008, 04:41 PM
I think you guys are missing the point. Obama will not cut our military. His own plan doesn't end the war in Iraq. His plan calls for a two year phased withdrawl that in the end will leave 50,000 troops in Iraq for years to come. He also wants to send more troops to Afghanistan that will cancel out any troop withdrawls from Iraq. He also said that he will attack Pakistan without permission. And that war with Iran is on the table. Obama is not going to gut or cut the military empire. Obama is not an Anti-War candidate. So the amount of debt from the war and our Foreign Policy will continue. Not to mention all the other grand spending plans Obama has in store for the country. The fact remains that no matter which way we go. Both Obama and Mccain will continue to add huge amounts of debt to the country. Which cancels out any tax cuts that he will supposedly will give.



overall spending will still exceed overall revenue, and the nation would face at least 10 more years of annual deficits.




More Big Government, More Spending, More Debt. No change at all. Only the same.