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FinFatale
09-23-2008, 07:11 PM
For years they thought the economy was booming, growth was up, job numbers and productivity were increasing. Yet now we find ourselves in what is shaping up to be one of the most severe economic downturns since the Great Depression.
Unfortunately, the government's preferred solution to the crisis is the very thing that got us into this mess in the first place: government intervention.
.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/23/paul.bailout/index.html

BlueFin
09-23-2008, 09:16 PM
That about sums it up, and the gall of Alan Greenspan when the federal reserve had as much a hand in this as anybody.

I saw the large number of house flippers in my area get burned, no doubt inspired by some late night infomercial about "how to get rich quick in real estate".

Unfortunately, we will never see someone with the common sense of Ron Paul become president because this country has become a country of dependency, they want the federal government to wipe their rear end for them. And a Ron Paul expects individuals to take responsibility for their own lives.

Dolphins9954
09-23-2008, 09:49 PM
That about sums it up, and the gall of Alan Greenspan when the federal reserve had as much a hand in this as anybody.

I saw the large number of house flippers in my area get burned, no doubt inspired by some late night infomercial about "how to get rich quick in real estate".

Unfortunately, we will never see someone with the common sense of Ron Paul become president because this country has become a country of dependency, they want the federal government to wipe their rear end for them. And a Ron Paul expects individuals to take responsibility for their own lives.



And that's what it's all about. The less government you have in your life. The more freedom and liberty you will have. Plain and simple. Reminds me of Thomas Paine. "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."

We have an intolerable one now ladies and gentlemen.

poornate
09-23-2008, 10:47 PM
Since we are trafficking in historic quotes... I've got one for you... Thomas Jefferson, who is at the least a model rally point for your ideology, said "History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.".... so when all of the hemming and hawing begins about this proposed bailout, I beg you to crack a history book and read about the presidency of Herbert Hoover. There are times that we have to do things we don't want, in ways that we don't necessarily agree with, because we are backed into a corner. Sorry... but we need to only look back to the early years of our grandparents for the answers we need about whether or not this financial plan needs to be passed.... Inactivity when we needed action, no plan when we needed to try anything, regardless of the plan.... we need to do something.... and the truth is that what we do may not work... there is no clear course of action because the first time nothing was done until it was to late.... Not this time.... Look around you... are you willing to risk it all? Well... it's at risk. We'll sort out the solution, the legality, and the correlary affects when we have our families and freinds away from the fire....

Dolphins9954
09-23-2008, 11:10 PM
Since we are trafficking in historic quotes... I've got one for you... Thomas Jefferson, who is at the least a model rally point for your ideology, said "History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.".... so when all of the hemming and hawing begins about this proposed bailout, I beg you to crack a history book and read about the presidency of Herbert Hoover. There are times that we have to do things we don't want, in ways that we don't necessarily agree with, because we are backed into a corner. Sorry... but we need to only look back to the early years of our grandparents for the answers we need about whether or not this financial plan needs to be passed.... Inactivity when we needed action, no plan when we needed to try anything, regardless of the plan.... we need to do something.... and the truth is that what we do may not work... there is no clear course of action because the first time nothing was done until it was to late.... Not this time.... Look around you... are you willing to risk it all? Well... it's at risk. We'll sort out the solution, the legality, and the correlary affects when we have our families and freinds away from the fire....


So the solution to the problem is the exact same thing that got us into this problem to begin with. We are taking poison for the cure. The same poison that got us into this mess. Adding a trillion dollars to the debt in just 1 month will not solve the problem. It's only adding to it. Look at the stock markets right now. The dollar had one of the biggest declines just from the talk of this bailout. When you continue to add printed money out of thin air to the currency. Guess what? It causes inflation. How is putting us in more debt and causing more infaltion the solution? That's the problem we've had for a while now. Also take into account a runaway government that does nothing but accumulate tremendous amount of debt. And two candidates that will continue the record amount of debt. Were going to add 1 trillion now. That will put us at 11.3 trillion. When McBama gets in they will add another 4 to 5 trillion. Not to mention any another bailouts, Wars, and Stimulus checks. We will be around 16 trillion after McBama gets a hold on us. The dollar will be in shambles. Inflation through the roof. And we will have less freedoms and liberties. No my friend. In the fire we will be. Make no mistake about that. How is making things more expensive through inflation. Not to mention high "Patriotic" taxes on all of us and huge amounts of debt the solution? We need the exact opposite.

poornate
09-23-2008, 11:21 PM
Well... I disagree... there is a record of what we are facing, and in that record a pattern of inactivity did not serve our nation well... So how about we try the other thing this time and do something? Do you know how close our nation is to losing lines of credit?

Dolphins9954
09-23-2008, 11:25 PM
Well... I disagree... there is a record of what we are facing, and in that record a pattern of inactivity did not serve our nation well... So how about we try the other thing this time and do something? Do you know how close our nation is to losing lines of credit?


That started a long time ago. Last time I checked adding more debt isn't exactly the best way to keep our line of credit. Isn't it the opposite?

Ferretsquig
09-23-2008, 11:31 PM
Paul has some laudable aims, but this argument that the government's stifling regulations were the driving force behind the housing boom is a bit of a stretch. And comparing these actions with what took place in the '30s only makes him look worse. There is no comparison.

The fed was slow in reacting to the "irrational exuberance" of both the stock market and housing boom. But in both it eventually served as a damper to growth and a cushion for the fall. You take away regulation of the money flow and the market becomes even more chaotic and unpredictable than it is today. The ideal of the free market has attracted capitalists for centuries, but we need only look back a hundred years to see the ramifications of true capitalism.

poornate
09-23-2008, 11:39 PM
Well... I disagree... there is a record of what we are facing, and in that record a pattern of inactivity did not serve our nation well... So how about we try the other thing this time and do something? Do you know how close our nation is to losing lines of credit?[quote]


That started a long time ago. Last time I checked adding more debt isn't exactly the best way to keep our line of credit. Isn't it the opposite?By nation... I mean WE are the nation... your visa... my HELOC... his ability to buy a vehicle.... her ability to buy a home.... That is the nation i speak of...

poornate
09-23-2008, 11:41 PM
Paul has some laudable aims, but this argument that the government's stifling regulations were the driving force behind the housing boom is a bit of a stretch. And comparing these actions with what took place in the '30s only makes him look worse. There is no comparison.


There is a striking comparison... please explain how there is not...

Dolphins9954
09-23-2008, 11:54 PM
By nation... I mean WE are the nation... your visa... my HELOC... his ability to buy a vehicle.... her ability to buy a home.... That is the nation i speak of...


Having a government that doesn't put us in debt. And Private Banks around the world controlling our economy, money, debt and inflation. Would be the best solution to our lines of credit. Having a strong dollar that's not dragged down with inflation and money constantly printed out of thin air will only make things better for our whole nation. Doing the opposite. Won't work at all. At best it could delay it a little. But in the end it would only make the hole even bigger. And make our current economy look like a fanatasy. If that's even possible. No cure at all. Only poison.

DolFan31
09-24-2008, 12:17 AM
In other words, we're much better off being the world's creditor rather than the world's debtor.

Ferretsquig
09-24-2008, 12:47 AM
There is a striking comparison... please explain how there is not...

You're going to compare the failure of the banking sector and the government anemic reaction in the '30s to what we are facing today? We've reacted in a completely different manner to a failure of a much smaller scale. There is no comparison.

poornate
09-24-2008, 08:51 AM
The failure at this point is of a smaller scale... we are now seeing bank failures and there are surely more to come with a similarly apathetic response (comparable to the one we got in 1929-1930).... The conditions are much the same... The pattern is developing in the same manner... it's just the reduction in real wealth from housing instead of agriculture... In fact... there is a real chance that what we face could be worse now because of our cultural reliance on credit... I hope we will not have to know...

Ferretsquig
09-24-2008, 02:29 PM
The same things can't happen. We have an entirely different monetary system now. The government has already indicated that it won't let mortgage backers and investment banks fail.....you really think it would let banks go under? Despite all the doomsday proponents, we face neither the risk of runaway inflation or stagflation.....or bankruptcy for that matter.

The remarkable thing is that even after all this, the market has responded by supporting the dollar and declaring that it is still the international currency of choice. So long as people hold $5 trillion in reserves it's almost impossible for the currency to collapse.

poornate
09-24-2008, 03:16 PM
But the government cannot stop consumer confidence from failing and freezing assets, now can it?

Eshlemon
09-25-2008, 02:52 PM
It looks like a sweetheart deal for both borrower and lender get bailed out for to many high risk loans. Creditors foreclosering on these won't help as they don't have the cash to ride out the loss of mortgage revenue. Of course the govenment can make money to buy these high risks at a discount. Which will end up a version of public housing as mortages will be discounted. Dont see the elected officials starting government forclosure on these mortages.

Ferretsquig
09-25-2008, 03:41 PM
The plan is to sell the mortgage securities back to the private sector and let them deal with the risk. The hedge funds are already lining up thinking this is the next big score for those who have billions to play with. Those people are pretty ruthless, so I wouldn't say the borrower is getting off the hook.

Eshlemon
09-25-2008, 04:18 PM
The plan is to sell the mortgage securities back to the private sector and let them deal with the risk. The hedge funds are already lining up thinking this is the next big score for those who have billions to play with. Those people are pretty ruthless, so I wouldn't say the borrower is getting off the hook.

Yes, I've heard the pronouncents the government is eventually going to sell the high risks back and make trillions. Unless the deal goes bad and loses billions. And the Bloombergs with cash are lining up to score big too as cash is king. Or maybe government keep a large block of voters beholden to them with discounted mortages. We'll see what happens...probably a little of both and everything.

Ferretsquig
09-25-2008, 05:33 PM
The federal reserve isn't the government, and they aren't beholden to any voters. They aren't going to make trillions either, in fact they'll take significant losses. Noone is going to pay face value, but at the minimum they should get 30 cents on the dollar.

Eshlemon
09-25-2008, 06:06 PM
The federal reserve isn't the government, and they aren't beholden to any voters. They aren't going to make trillions either, in fact they'll take significant losses. Noone is going to pay face value, but at the minimum they should get 30 cents on the dollar.


Isn't the Fed a government program with private components? And while your right voters don't control the fed directly, they do inderectly thru Congress. If they didn't they wouldn't be coming to the President and Congress to approve money for the buy outs.

Saw the making money angle on TV, which states it could...but has to mean could not as well. Looked up what I think was the source:

http://www.wsj.com/article/SB122230704116773989.html

The Paulson Plan
Will Make Money
For Taxpayers
By ANDY KESSLER

Admit I have no idea what Kesslers background is or how solid his expertise is.

Dolphins9954
09-25-2008, 07:34 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

Ferretsquig
09-25-2008, 09:02 PM
Isn't the Fed a government program with private components? And while your right voters don't control the fed directly, they do inderectly thru Congress. If they didn't they wouldn't be coming to the President and Congress to approve money for the buy outs.

I guess you could call it a governmental institution, since the head is an appointee, but the fed does not normally answer to congress. This is a rather unique case.


Saw the making money angle on TV, which states it could...but has to mean could not as well. Looked up what I think was the source:

Admit I have no idea what Kesslers background is or how solid his expertise is.

It could be, but I don't think the fed wants to hold onto any of these mortgage securities. It wants to buy them and resell to the private sector as quickly as possible, along with its stake in all these companies its bailing out. People will be lining up to buy it all, since as the article states there is a lot of money to be made. However there is also a huge amount of liability, which I don't think Paulson wants to hand over to the taxpayers.

Dolphins9954
09-25-2008, 09:13 PM
Prestigious Group of 192 Economists - Including Nobel Prize Winners - Slams Bailout (http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/09/prestigious-group-of-economists-slam.html)


The following group of prominent economists, including numerous Nobel Prize winners, has written a letter slamming the bailout proposal:


http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/09/prestigious-group-of-economists-slam.html



These guys can't possibly be telling the truth. Bush, Mccain and Obama said that this will work. The government never lies. :up:

milldog
09-25-2008, 09:21 PM
That started a long time ago. Last time I checked adding more debt isn't exactly the best way to keep our line of credit. Isn't it the opposite?

I hear ya! What would you rather have happen... Nothing? I won't pretend to know a whole lot about the situation were in. I didn't overextend myself, I pay my mortgage and other bills. Don't you think if the government did nothing we'de be worse off? Please, help me understand what nothing would help accomplish? And... I am pissed off as hell that we as taxpayers have to accept all the blame for this crisis.

Dolphins9954
09-25-2008, 09:26 PM
I hear ya! What would you rather have happen... Nothing? I won't pretend to know a whole lot about the situation were in. I didn't overextend myself, I pay my mortgage and other bills. Don't you think if the government did nothing we'de be worse off? Please, help me understand what nothing would help accomplish? And... I am pissed off as hell that we as taxpayers have to accept all the blame for this crisis.


If we had a government that didn't put us in record amount of debt. And a Federal Reserve constantly printing money out of thin air. Killing our currency with inflation. Then we would all be better off. More Debt and More Inflation is not the answer. We must face the fact that our current fiscal and monetary policies can't and will not continue.

milldog
09-25-2008, 09:33 PM
If we had a government that didn't put us in record amount of debt. And a Federal Reserve constantly printing money out of thin air. Killing our currency with inflation. Then we would all be better off. More Debt and More Inflation is not the answer. We must face the fact that our current fiscal and monetary policies can't and will not continue.

I get that but its too late for that, its already happened. It seems as if were doomed! Whose to blame? Government? Lenders? Greedy people? I've got a kid on the way and a house that's way too small for us and I'm scared to death. I really worry about my parents who have their life savings invested in the stock market. My dad has worked his tail off his whole life to be put in this situation. I'm pissed off!

Dolphins9954
09-26-2008, 08:44 AM
I get that but its too late for that, its already happened. It seems as if were doomed! Whose to blame? Government? Lenders? Greedy people? I've got a kid on the way and a house that's way too small for us and I'm scared to death. I really worry about my parents who have their life savings invested in the stock market. My dad has worked his tail off his whole life to be put in this situation. I'm pissed off!


It's still happening. And will continue to happen with Obama or Mccain. Which means things will not get better only worse. The market needs to correct itself. It could be painful. But a correction needs to happen. Not a government intrusion with Dictatorial powers. The language in this bill is scary. It's not just a bailout. It's a power grap and takeover. Which amounts to a Financial Dictatorship. The same fear that was used to pass the Patriot Act and the war with Iraq. Is now being used to excuse this clear takeover by the Fed and government.

I understand your situation with a child on the way and a house to small. My advice to you is to stay in that house as long as you can. And ride this thing out. But there is no telling how long that will take. Given the fact that both candidates won't fix the problem. Only add to it. And I feel for your father. Many people are on that same boat. Worked their whole lives. Just to see their money dwindle away. If I was him I would take all my money out of the stock market and invest it in gold or some other safe investment. The stock market is in disarray. And this government power grap won't fix it at all. Many top economists and nobel prize winners agree that it won't work.

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/09/prestigious-group-of-economists-slam.html


We are now facing the reality that the status quo of Big Government, Debt, and Inflation can no longer continue. A government that constantly puts us in record debt and a Federal Reserve that helps with the government over-spending addiction. Needs to come to an end. This bailout means nothing when you have a runaway, out of control government and FED. When we fix this problem. Then and only then will you see things get better. Unfortunately that's not going to happen this election. Maybe in 2012. When Americans have had enough and realize that the DEMS and the GOP are a cancer to our way of life. Then we could have true "change".

Dolphins9954
09-27-2008, 06:33 PM
Support for Bailout Plan Now Down to 24%

The more voters learn about the proposed $700-billion taxpayer-backed Wall Street rescue plan, the less they like it. Most voters remain largely unworried about their own money (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/general_business/support_for_bailout_plan_now_down_to_24#), too.
Just 24% of U.S. voters now favor the plan first proposed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson a week ago and the subject of very public negotiations on Capitol Hill ever since, according to a Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey taken Friday night. Fifty percent (50%) oppose it, and 25% are undecided.
Six–out-of-10 voters (60%) remain worried that the federal government will do too much to bailout the ailing financial markets. Only 28% think the government will not do enough.
Fifty-one percent (51%) of investors oppose the plan, and 63% of them worry the government will do too much.
The Rasmussen Consumer Index (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/indexes/rasmussen_consumer_index), which measures the economic confidence of consumers on a daily basis, continues to hover around the lowest levels ever recorded in its seven-year history.
Opposition to the bailout plan has grown even after federal regulators seized Washington Mutual late Thursday in the biggest bank (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/general_business/support_for_bailout_plan_now_down_to_24#) failure in U.S. history. Seventy-two percent (72%) say they have followed stories on Washington Mutual, including 37% who say they have been following the news Very Closely.
Thirty percent (30%) favored the bailout plan in a survey taken Wednesday night (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/general_business/just_30_think_government_should_bail_out_the_markets) even as President Bush was addressing the nation about the urgent need for Congress to pass it. Sixty-three percent (63%) were worried at that time about too much federal intervention in the markets.




http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/general_business/support_for_bailout_plan_now_down_to_24



Let's see if our so-called representation will listen to the American people. I doubt it.

milldog
09-27-2008, 06:43 PM
It's still happening. And will continue to happen with Obama or Mccain. Which means things will not get better only worse. The market needs to correct itself. It could be painful. But a correction needs to happen. Not a government intrusion with Dictatorial powers. The language in this bill is scary. It's not just a bailout. It's a power grap and takeover. Which amounts to a Financial Dictatorship. The same fear that was used to pass the Patriot Act and the war with Iraq. Is now being used to excuse this clear takeover by the Fed and government.

I understand your situation with a child on the way and a house to small. My advice to you is to stay in that house as long as you can. And ride this thing out. But there is no telling how long that will take. Given the fact that both candidates won't fix the problem. Only add to it. And I feel for your father. Many people are on that same boat. Worked their whole lives. Just to see their money dwindle away. If I was him I would take all my money out of the stock market and invest it in gold or some other safe investment. The stock market is in disarray. And this government power grap won't fix it at all. Many top economists and nobel prize winners agree that it won't work.

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/09/prestigious-group-of-economists-slam.html


We are now facing the reality that the status quo of Big Government, Debt, and Inflation can no longer continue. A government that constantly puts us in record debt and a Federal Reserve that helps with the government over-spending addiction. Needs to come to an end. This bailout means nothing when you have a runaway, out of control government and FED. When we fix this problem. Then and only then will you see things get better. Unfortunately that's not going to happen this election. Maybe in 2012. When Americans have had enough and realize that the DEMS and the GOP are a cancer to our way of life. Then we could have true "change".

Why gold/ Gold is at an all time high. it has no where to go but down. Probably not as far down as stocks though, huh?

Ferretsquig
09-27-2008, 11:18 PM
The stock market is just a reflection of inflation, and will always trend upwards over a five year period. The good ol' fashioned index fund has been one of the best investments over the last 40 years.....so long as the investor is patient. Those who play in the commodities market invite disaster. The theory is that you use them to hedge against inflation when the market isn't keeping up, but the market always seems to manage to adjust itself in time.