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Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 10:04 AM
A California appeals court has ruled that homeschooling of children is illegal unless their parents have teaching credentials from the state.

"California is now on the path to being the only state to deny the vast majority of homeschooling parents their fundamental right to teach their own children at home," said Michael Smith, president of the Home School Legal Defense Association.

The court overturned a lower court's finding that homeschooling did not constitute a violation of child welfare laws.

"California courts have held that ... parents (http://www.naturalnews.com/parents.html) do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said.

The decision stunned parents of the state's roughly 166,000 homeschooled children. While the court claimed that it was merely clarifying an existing law and not making a new one, the decision leaves the parents of homeschooled children at risk of arrest and criminal prosecution.

"At first, there was a sense of, 'No way,' " homeschool parent Loren Mavromati said. "Then there was a little bit of fear. I think it has moved now into indignation."

Parents' reasons for homeschooling their children range from religious beliefs to dissatisfaction with the education received at public or private schools. But according to the court, all California children between the ages of 6 and 18 must attend either a full-time public or private school or be taught by a tutor credentialed for their specific grade level.

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation," Croskey wrote.

California's largest teachers union welcomed the decision as did the Children's Law Center of Los Angeles.

According to the law center's executive director, Leslie Heimov, children should not be educated at home, because they need to be "in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety."




http://www.naturalnews.com/024287.html



Nevermind the fact that statistics show that homeschool kids tend to be smarter than public school kids. Look at the spelling bee on TV. Half the kids are homeschooled. This is insane. To arrest parents for homeschooling is out of control. And once again another example of Big Government running our lives.

poornate
09-24-2008, 10:26 AM
I understand this... there are qualified homeschoolers... but I would like to see factual information for your assertion that homeschooled students are "smarter", because in my experiences with the education system the children that come to the school after having been in that environment are behind in some areas and ahead in others.... But smarter? Why would that be? There is not some vast empirical evidence that people who have higher learners are more apt not to enroll them in school....

LouPhinFan
09-24-2008, 10:40 AM
Who's surprised? After all this is the state of California we're talking about. Land of the weird and home of the liberal movie stars.

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 10:43 AM
I understand this... there are qualified homeschoolers... but I would like to see factual information for your assertion that homeschooled students are "smarter", because in my experiences with the education system the children that come to the school after having been in that environment are behind in some areas and ahead in others.... But smarter? Why would that be? There is not some vast empirical evidence that people who have higher learners are more apt not to enroll them in school....


Here you go.




Homeschool Students Score Better Academically and Socially

Basic Statistics

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Academically
Home school students scored significantly higher than their public and private school counterparts. The studies below prove homeschool students do exceptionally well when compared with the nationwide average. In every subject and at every grade level of the ITBS and TAP batteries.
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Socially
Studies also show homeschoolers mature and better socialized than are those sent to school. Dr. John Wesley Taylor's nationwide study revealed that the self-concept of home school students was significantly higher than that of public school students for the global and all six subscales of the Piers-Harris Self-Concept Scale. The Galloway-Sutton Study (performed in 1997), showed that from five success indicators (academic, cognitive, spiritual, affective-social and pyschomotor), comparing with public and private schooled students, "in every success category except pyschomotor, the home school graduates excelled above the other students."
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Cost
The average amount spent on home schooling per child in the US is $450.
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Household Income
18% of home school families earn less than $25,000, 44% of households between $25,000 and $49,000.
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Religious
Over 75% attend religious services






http://homeschoolinformation.com/homeschooling/homeschool_statistics1.htm



Also take in account that almost have of the kids on the televised spelling bee are homeschooled. (Why the hell is my font blue?) I think this is a constitutional debate. Don't parents have the right to homeschool their own children? Why would the state threaten them with arrest and jail. This is Big Brother in action. Sorry for the font.

phinfan3411
09-24-2008, 11:17 AM
I am with 9954 100% on this, it is an outrage! I cannot put into words how mad this makes me. I happen to know a family that lives in the "city" and city schools many times are not exactly the best place for youngsters to learn. They cannot afford to move, so they homeschool, and there are examples of these families everywhere.

There are not many things to get upset about, but I would like to see someone tell me that I can't homeschool my kids.

It all comes down to protecting the unions imo.

poornate
09-24-2008, 11:24 AM
I tend to distrust studies and facts done and provided by religious institutes with a specific agenda... In fact... i have found out that their are no real studies that look at the acheivement gap, or lack of one, between public/private schooling and homeschooling.... The studies that exist only track SAT scores and compare them.... that isn't a controlled measure since a much smaller number of homeschoolers go on to higher education... i can tell you from my experience that there appears to be a wide range of ability expressed in a homeschooled child depending on the subject.... generally literacy is high, and English skills, and geography, but history, psycho-motor, and socialization skills are typically very low....

WSE
09-24-2008, 11:28 AM
If the parents are qualified to teach, than homeschooling is fine

kids need a standard education. Can parents provide that? Yes, but not all of them and it takes some training.

and as for the arrests/fines, its not arrests due to homeschooling- its arrests/fines due to kids not going to school. Kids are required to be in schooling. Its not the action of homeschooling that gets them in trouble, its the inaction of them going to school. There is a fundamental difference there.

now, I don't agree with this totally. I am fine with homeschooling if standards of training and examination are met.

Clipse
09-24-2008, 11:36 AM
:bs:

This really is BS. Won't surprise me if this makes it to Supreme Court.

FinFatale
09-24-2008, 11:40 AM
:bs:

This really is BS. Won't surprise me if this makes it to Supreme Court.

I totally am in agreeance.

poornate
09-24-2008, 11:55 AM
While looking for info on the subject, numbers, I stumbled across the fact that 40% of parents who home school do not have an education above some high school... i think that disqualifies them as teachers automatically... I also was surprised at the amount of time in a day devoted to religious study on average... and the lack of technological competency found in the students who are tested... I'm not completely sure how I feel about this... the more I read the more it seemed like home indoctrination instead of homeschooling....

WSE
09-24-2008, 11:59 AM
While looking for info on the subject, numbers, I stumbled across the fact that 40% of parents who home school do not have an education above some high school... i think that disqualifies them as teachers automatically... I also was surprised at the amount of time in a day devoted to religious study on average... and the lack of technological competency found in the students who are tested... I'm not completely sure how I feel about this... the more I read the more it seemed like home indoctrination instead of homeschooling....

well, for some that is definitely the case. Just a way to isolate the kids from the world and to nail in the parents belief system.

however, you cant say its that way for all

I think there should be limits and controls on homeschooling. A college degree. A couple teaching courses. And of course for the kids to have to take standardized tests to make sure they are being taught what they are supposed to be taught at their grade level. Parents teaching religion and their belief system is fine, as long as the kids are getting their standard education to go along with it.

PassRush
09-24-2008, 12:00 PM
It might not be politicly correct but I have to call it as I see it. I have never met a homeschooled individual who was not socially handicapped. With that said, the quality of the education seems to be higher.

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 12:20 PM
What a sad state of affairs. Parents should have the right to teach their kids at home. It is a fundamental right. There is no evidence that home schooled children are at risk, so the motivation for this is not about the kids, but more about maybe unions and forced indoctrination into the California way of life that they have demonstrated that they want to teach kids. Home schooling was a way to not have to subject your kid to the this forced indoctrination. Now that has been cleverly taken away. I hope this gets to the Supreme Court, and I hope Californians make this an issue at the polls and elect or un-elect their representatives. And if you are in California and are a homeschooler - move before your children are confiscated like a piece of property.

This issue isn't about educating kids properly. This issue is about the State taking our kids and trying to raise them as the State sees fit, with the States values and morals and viewpoints. It's Un-American.

Tetragrammaton
09-24-2008, 12:23 PM
I don't know how I feel about this quite yet.

LouPhinFan
09-24-2008, 12:46 PM
My feelings:

Sure some parents may not be qualified to homeschool their children, but its up to them how to raise their own children. The government has no business dictating to them on that issue. Besides the fact...homeschooled children account for under 5% of children in this country. At least from what I can find by Googling the subject. The only issue I have with it is social skills. All the home schooled children I have met over the years have lacked advanced social skills. That's up to the parents to get the kids involved with sports or neighborhood groups, etc.

Basically I think government should invest more time and money into strengthening our public school system rather than worrying about a small percentage of homeschooled children. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one. (guess which movie that quote if from...)

Just my 2 cents.

poornate
09-24-2008, 12:53 PM
What a sad state of affairs. Parents should have the right to teach their kids at home. It is a fundamental right. There is no evidence that home schooled children are at risk, so the motivation for this is not about the kids, but more about maybe unions and forced indoctrination into the California way of life that they have demonstrated that they want to teach kids. Home schooling was a way to not have to subject your kid to the this forced indoctrination. Now that has been cleverly taken away. I hope this gets to the Supreme Court, and I hope Californians make this an issue at the polls and elect or un-elect their representatives. And if you are in California and are a homeschooler - move before your children are confiscated like a piece of property.

This issue isn't about educating kids properly. This issue is about the State taking our kids and trying to raise them as the State sees fit, with the States values and morals and viewpoints. It's Un-American.

I know your big dig with education is always evolution... But I have to tell you... there is so much concentration is schools to NOT indoctrinate students, to NOT betray your belief set as an educator, to NOT force students to intellectually exclude other options... I fear that education is not what you think it is.... the only thoughts I have on this are along the lines of insuring that students are getting a real education, that they are getting facts and what they need to be good citizens, and a part of a larger society... You cannot dismiss the value of learning conflict resolution and of learning social skills.... those are big, BIG aqreas in education... and I don't feel like homeschooled children benefit in these areas... i feel like they are definite losers here... that being said.... I wish that there was a mandatory testing policy to insure that students were on grade level in all subjects in all stat5es, but there doesn't seem to be anything close to that.... i also think that parents that homeschool should have to take and pass the Praxis I exam (the introductory exam to qualify someone as an educator) which only tabulates a basic understanding in core curriculum.... i think that is the least that needs to be done... as far as the introduction of religious studies taking precedence over factual higher learning studies... for me that is a fear... i need to only wheel my way over to my bookcase to pull down a book called "Christ our Lord and his History" that equates everything in Western Civ. to the Bible and places it in religious terms... That is not an unfiltered source... i got it a few years ago because I was shocked at the distortion in it...

poornate
09-24-2008, 12:55 PM
Basically I think government should invest more time and money into strengthening our public school system rather than worrying about a small percentage of homeschooled children. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one. (guess which movie that quote if from...)

Just my 2 cents.

.. this doesn't take into account that educators are concerned about all children.... No child left behind, so to speak....

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 01:25 PM
This case was discussed at length in the religion forum a while back. Here is the link.

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/f36/courts-homeschool-ban-creating-panic-214277.html#post1062383303

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 01:30 PM
While looking for info on the subject, numbers, I stumbled across the fact that 40% of parents who home school do not have an education above some high school... i think that disqualifies them as teachers automatically... I also was surprised at the amount of time in a day devoted to religious study on average... and the lack of technological competency found in the students who are tested... I'm not completely sure how I feel about this... the more I read the more it seemed like home indoctrination instead of homeschooling....


Well according to this logic we should get rid of private schools as well. Catholic schools devote tons of time to religion and god. Should we ban them too? The tests have shown that home school kids actually test better. This notion that home school children are dumb and incompetent is false.




Home schooled students in Grades K-8 took the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills (ITBS) Form L, published by Riverside Publishing Company, a subsidiary of Houghton Mifflin. Developed by University of Iowa professors, the tests were designed and developed to measure skills and standards important to growth across the curriculum in the nation's public and private schools. Home schooled students in Grades 9-12 took the Tests of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP), Form L, also published by Riverside Publishing Company.

Major findings: Achievement


Almost 25% of home school students are enrolled one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools.
Home school student achievement test scores are exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade (typically in the 70th to 80th percentile) are well above those of public and Catholic/Private school students.
On average, home school students in grades 1 to 4 perform one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests.
The achievement test score gap between home school students and public/private school students starts to widen in grade 5.
Students who have been home schooled their entire academic life have higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who have also attended other educational programs.
There are no meaningful differences in achievement by gender, whether the student is enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether a parent holds a state issued teaching certificate.
There are significant achievement differences among home school students when classified by amount of money spent on education, family income, parent education, and television viewing.



http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/



Contrary to your belief that it's all about Religion and indoctrination. The same could be said about California banning Home School.





"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation," Croskey wrote.



Not all people who want to home school their children do it for religious reasons. I myself am not religious at all. I see the benefits to home school my children because I really do believe that my wife and I could do a better job. And the statistics proves that. The public school that my child goes to is a joke. And it's an "A" school. They spend more time studying for the FCAT than they do anything else. It seems they skip the basic fundamentals of learning. And just try to cram so much on them just so they get a good FCAT score to get more money. Somewhere along the line "teaching" gets lost. Home School is an alternative that shouldn't be taken away from us. Also take into account all the bad influence in public school. My child has learned more negative and bad behaviors from school than anywhere else. I was shocked to hear some of the things that my child has heard from other kids. From cursing, violence and sexual slangs. I wanted to get my child out of that school immediately. There is alot of bad parents out there. Home schooling isn't for everyone. But it works for many parents and children.

In the end it's bigger than all of this. This is a Constitutional debate. Should parents have the right to Home School their own children? Yes they do. Unless you live in California. My children belong to my wife and I. They are not property of the state. If I want to Home School my chidren. Then that is my Constitutional right. And I shouldn't be fined, arrested or jailed for it.

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 01:31 PM
I know your big dig with education is always evolution... But I have to tell you... there is so much concentration is schools to NOT indoctrinate students, to NOT betray your belief set as an educator, to NOT force students to intellectually exclude other options... I fear that education is not what you think it is.... the only thoughts I have on this are along the lines of insuring that students are getting a real education, that they are getting facts and what they need to be good citizens, and a part of a larger society... You cannot dismiss the value of learning conflict resolution and of learning social skills.... those are big, BIG aqreas in education... and I don't feel like homeschooled children benefit in these areas... i feel like they are definite losers here... that being said.... I wish that there was a mandatory testing policy to insure that students were on grade level in all subjects in all stat5es, but there doesn't seem to be anything close to that.... i also think that parents that homeschool should have to take and pass the Praxis I exam (the introductory exam to qualify someone as an educator) which only tabulates a basic understanding in core curriculum.... i think that is the least that needs to be done... as far as the introduction of religious studies taking precedence over factual higher learning studies... for me that is a fear... i need to only wheel my way over to my bookcase to pull down a book called "Christ our Lord and his History" that equates everything in Western Civ. to the Bible and places it in religious terms... That is not an unfiltered source... i got it a few years ago because I was shocked at the distortion in it...My major concern with California isn't evolution. Evolution can be easily defeated in the mind of a highschooler. My concern is their mandate to teach homosexuality to our kids, and now the only option left to parents who disagree with that has been removed. Talk about indoctrination by the State. This is a classic case of that happening.


It's because the California Legislature and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger worked together to establish Senate Bill 777 and Assembly Bill 394 as law, plans that institutionalize the promotion of homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenderism and other alternative lifestyle choices.
"First, [California] law allowed public schools to voluntarily promote homosexuality, bisexuality and transsexuality. Then, the law required public schools to accept homosexual, bisexual and transsexual teachers as role models for impressionable children. Now, the law has been changed to effectively require the positive portrayal of homosexuality, bisexuality and transsexuality to 6 million children in California government-controlled schools," said Thomasson.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58053

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 01:38 PM
What a sad state of affairs. Parents should have the right to teach their kids at home. It is a fundamental right. There is no evidence that home schooled children are at risk, so the motivation for this is not about the kids, but more about maybe unions and forced indoctrination into the California way of life that they have demonstrated that they want to teach kids. Home schooling was a way to not have to subject your kid to the this forced indoctrination. Now that has been cleverly taken away. I hope this gets to the Supreme Court, and I hope Californians make this an issue at the polls and elect or un-elect their representatives. And if you are in California and are a homeschooler - move before your children are confiscated like a piece of property.

This issue isn't about educating kids properly. This issue is about the State taking our kids and trying to raise them as the State sees fit, with the States values and morals and viewpoints. It's Un-American.




"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation," Croskey wrote.

poornate
09-24-2008, 01:49 PM
My major concern with California isn't evolution. Evolution can be easily defeated in the mind of a highschooler. My concern is their mandate to teach homosexuality to our kids, and now the only option left to parents who disagree with that has been removed. Talk about indoctrination by the State. This is a classic case of that happening.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58053

There is no mandate to teach homosexuality to students... but it is the responsibility of all educators to teach tolerance of all people...

poornate
09-24-2008, 01:53 PM
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation," Croskey wrote.

Citizenship has always been a goal of schooling... always... no exception exists in history... so what is your point?

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 02:02 PM
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation," Croskey wrote.Nothing about math, english, writing, grammer etc.... in there. I thought that was education meant.

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 02:07 PM
Citizenship has always been a goal of schooling... always... no exception exists in history... so what is your point?


Did you miss the loyalty to the State and Nation part?

I find it funny a judge telling us that our children belong to the state because we must "teach" them about loyalty to the State. He didn't mention anything about math, reading, and grammer. You know what education should be about.

poornate
09-24-2008, 02:17 PM
Seriously.... I could refer you to any number of sources on this... To be a good citizen (according to an educator's definition) means to be able to process information and make informed choices without external direction, to abide by the laws you agree to live under by being a citizen, to submit to the social control of being a part of the human collective, to be a good citizen, and to be an INFORMED, and EDUCATED (includes all core subjects and curricula), and PRODUCTIVE member of society... This is the primary goal of the social science field... and BTW... when you read Nation it means the people of our country... State is government and democratic institutions...

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 02:22 PM
There is no mandate to teach homosexuality to students... but it is the responsibility of all educators to teach tolerance of all people...
Ah yes, the old "tolerance" disguise.:up:


The second bill, AB 394, "requires public schools to distribute controversial material to teachers, students, and parents which promotes transsexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality, all under the guise of 'anti-harassment' training," the group said.http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/Feb14/1481.html

This is how it starts. You can turn a blind eye to it Nate, but the "Agenda" just dealt a huge blow to parents who disagree with what should be tolerated, by removing the only thing the had left to keep their kids from being exposed to such things.

This isn't about educating children in math, english, writing, grammer and the like, the real goal of education., It is about values and morals and who has the right to teach those to impressionable kids.

WSE
09-24-2008, 02:23 PM
Nothing about math, english, writing, grammer etc.... in there. I thought that was education meant.

"A Primary purpose"

not "the primary purpose"

citizenship is one integral part of education according to this man's opinion- not the only part.

poornate
09-24-2008, 02:34 PM
Ah yes, the old "tolerance" disguise.:up:

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/Feb14/1481.html

This is how it starts. You can turn a blind eye to it Nate, but the "Agenda" just dealt a huge blow to parents who disagree with what should be tolerated, by removing the only thing the had left to keep their kids from being exposed to such things.

This isn't about educating children in math, english, writing, grammer and the like, the real goal of education., It is about values and morals and who has the right to teach those to impressionable kids.

It is about perspective, though... I am telling you... we teach tolerance in our schools because we SHOULD teach tolerance... there is not, nor will there ever be, any explicit material introduced in a classroom in regards to the functionality of homosexuality, etc.... it is about respecting humanity regardless of their differences... of course it will be framed in a certain way coming from a website called "Prophecy Watch".... But the inculcation of children about the norms and mores of a homosexual lifestyle is not on the plate... there is no agenda for that... but tolerance? That is worth fighting to keep in the curricula... we live in a diverse world and people should not be excluded based off of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, or political ideals...

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 02:35 PM
Seriously.... I could refer you to any number of sources on this... To be a good citizen (according to an educator's definition) means to be able to process information and make informed choices without external direction, to abide by the laws you agree to live under by being a citizen, to submit to the social control of being a part of the human collective, to be a good citizen, and to be an INFORMED, and EDUCATED (includes all core subjects and curricula), and PRODUCTIVE member of society... This is the primary goal of the social science field... and BTW... when you read Nation it means the people of our country... State is government and democratic institutions...


And you believe that only the government can teach us that?

Children can learn about citizenship without the government taking them as property. It's quite possible don't you think. You may have your problems with Home Schooling and I understand that. No one is forcing you to Home School your kids. The same should be said about those of us that don't want to be forced to have the State teach our children. We live in a free country right? Sholudn't that mean we have the freedom to Home School our children? Without the threat of fines and jail.

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Encouraging good citizenship should be supported in all walks of American life, I have no problem with that, but when it comes to defining what a good citizen is, how they should think, what they should believe in etc.....I draw the line after a few basic elements.

Good Citizen = Obey the laws of your country. Support your Country. Work. Pay your taxes. Vote. Help those less fortunate if you can.

Ferretsquig
09-24-2008, 02:45 PM
I've never met a parent who was either willing or capable of imparting unto a child the social skills necessary to survive in this world. Those kids are seriously messed up by the time they get to college.

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 02:47 PM
It is about perspective, though... I am telling you... we teach tolerance in our schools because we SHOULD teach tolerance... there is not, nor will there ever be, any explicit material introduced in a classroom in regards to the functionality of homosexuality, etc.... it is about respecting humanity regardless of their differences... of course it will be framed in a certain way coming from a website called "Prophecy Watch".... But the inculcation of children about the norms and mores of a homosexual lifestyle is not on the plate... there is no agenda for that... but tolerance? That is worth fighting to keep in the curricula... we live in a diverse world and people should not be excluded based off of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, or political ideals...Of course thay aren't promoting the norms and morets of homosexuality.

And then there is this.

http://www.massresistance.com/docs/issues/king_and_king/book.html

And this.


Massachusetts parents infuriated that their second graders were read King & King, a fairy tale about two gay princes, are suing the school and the teacher in federal court. The parents say schools are violating their religious freedom. But in Massachusetts, where gay marriage is legal, public school officials say they not only can talk about gay couples, they are required to.http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5366521

poornate
09-24-2008, 03:07 PM
Encouraging good citizenship should be supported in all walks of American life, I have no problem with that, but when it comes to defining what a good citizen is, how they should think, what they should believe in etc.....I draw the line after a few basic elements.

Good Citizen = Obey the laws of your country. Support your Country. Work. Pay your taxes. Vote. Help those less fortunate if you can.

I agree... but tolerance of fellow citizens and accepting other's choices (not agreeing with, or supporting, but accepting) are also facets of good citizenship...

poornate
09-24-2008, 03:14 PM
Of course thay aren't promoting the norms and morets of homosexuality.

And then there is this.

http://www.massresistance.com/docs/issues/king_and_king/book.html

And this.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5366521

The only way i can see it as valid is if there was an incident of a child having gay parents and the teacher used the book as a means to normalize class behavior towards the child... I read Hitler to a classroom...that doesn't mean I am trying to espouse or support his belief syste3m... it serves a purpose, you know?

I can't defend or denounce it... the fact is that it was probably done for a reason... i know how the teaching mind works... There are tens of millions of people in the United States that have some affiliation to a homosexual lifestyle... i can't help but think this was done woith a specific reason in mind...

Blackocrates
09-24-2008, 03:36 PM
This issue isn't about educating kids properly. This issue is about the State taking our kids and trying to raise them as the State sees fit, with the States values and morals and viewpoints. It's Un-American.

I'm going to admit I'm jumping the gun on this because I haven't read the case. After finishing law school I've realized to read the case and not the interpretations (articles) about what the ruling said.

That being said, I don't think the issue is what you're stating it to be. It seems that the issue is whether there is a minimum standard being met by the parents. I don't see a problem with the court enforcing standards in order for a parent to be able to teach their kids at home. I think people are overreacting with the ruling thinking that there's going to be a ban. I think the court is just ensuring the kids are going to get a decent education.

But like I said I haven't read the case yet, and I would guess most haven't.

Blackocrates
09-24-2008, 03:40 PM
Dolphins9954,

The thread title is misleading, seems like you're sensationalizing to get a reaction. Homeschooling isn't banned. It's only banned if certain standards aren't met.

FinFatale
09-24-2008, 03:56 PM
Dolphins9954,

The thread title is misleading, seems like you're sensationalizing to get a reaction. Homeschooling isn't banned. It's only banned if certain standards aren't met.

Dolphin 9954, ( hi by the way) , did not sensationalize anything he simply posted in the thread link the title of the original article....
Homeschooling Banned in California as State Turns Parents Into Criminals for Teaching Their Own Children

Blackocrates
09-24-2008, 04:01 PM
Dolphin 9954, ( hi by the way) , did not sensationalize anything he simply posted in the thread link the title of the original article....
Homeschooling Banned in California as State Turns Parents Into Criminals for Teaching Their Own Children

Ah, my apologies 9954. The sensationalism came from the article, because the ruling didn't ban homeschooling.

Blackocrates
09-24-2008, 04:03 PM
BTW, does anybody have the party names or the case number? I'm too lazy to look it up. I've recently lost my lexis benefits and all I'm left with is westlaw and I'm unfamiliar with them. None of the articles I've come across mention any party.

Chavez Ravine
09-24-2008, 04:46 PM
California: Ban Homeschools because our Public Schools are so good.


If I understand this ruling correctly it just requires parents to be connected with some accredited curriculum. Which if that's all it is, isn't a bad thing. If it's more than that, I can't support that.

That's the word of the street out here in cali.

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 04:50 PM
Ah, my apologies 9954. The sensationalism came from the article, because the ruling didn't ban homeschooling.


But the ruling did make it illegal to home school without the State's requirements. That's the first time ever that parents who home school could become criminals. That's something I totally disagree with. I understand testing to make sure the children are getting taught what they need. And studies along with these tests have shown that home school children score better than public and private schools. Which brings up the question of. Why is this necessary? Why do we need to threaten parents with fines and jail. For something that has proven to work without government intrusion. Home Schooling is doing quite fine without government intrusion. The tests have shown that.

Blackocrates
09-24-2008, 05:01 PM
But the ruling did make it illegal to home school without the State's requirements. That's the first time ever that parents who home school could become criminals. That's something I totally disagree with. I understand testing to make sure the children are getting taught what they need. And studies along with these tests have shown that home school children score better than public and private schools. Which brings up the question of. Why is this necessary? Why do we need to threaten parents with fines and jail. For something that has proven to work without government intrusion. Home Schooling is doing quite fine without government intrusion. The tests have shown that.

I don't know much about this issue, I don't know what studies have shown. I'll have to read the case later on. From what I've seen from one article the parents had their kids enrolled in a christian school and the kids weren't going. The father was reported to be physically/emotionally abusing his kids so the state investigated, and then all of this happened.

But back to what I was originally questioning was that your thread and the link you gave seemed to say that homeschooling was banned all together.

There's nothing wrong with the state enforcing requirements so long as the requirements are reasonable. I don't know what those requirements are though.

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 05:18 PM
I don't know much about this issue, I don't know what studies have shown. I'll have to read the case later on. From what I've seen from one article the parents had their kids enrolled in a christian school and the kids weren't going. The father was reported to be physically/emotionally abusing his kids so the state investigated, and then all of this happened.

But back to what I was originally questioning was that your thread and the link you gave seemed to say that homeschooling was banned all together.

There's nothing wrong with the state enforcing requirements so long as the requirements are reasonable. I don't know what those requirements are though.


I agree with that. Parents have been home schooling their children very successfully without the threat of fines and jail. Testing is a reasonable option to me. You want to make sure that the children are learning. I don't think forcing the parents to get degrees in teaching is necessary. When tests have shown that Home School children score better than all children.

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 05:45 PM
I agree... but tolerance of fellow citizens and accepting other's choices (not agreeing with, or supporting, but accepting) are also facets of good citizenship...The problem is Nate, in the real world, people don't differentiate between tolerance and acceptance. The world view is they go hand in hand in more cases than I care to mention. Now you expect children to make that distinction?

FinFatale
09-24-2008, 05:55 PM
The problem is Nate, in the real world, people don't differentiate between tolerance and acceptance. The world view is they go hand in hand in more cases than I care to mention. Now you expect children to make that distinction?


that is a good point D7.

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 05:55 PM
The only way i can see it as valid is if there was an incident of a child having gay parents and the teacher used the book as a means to normalize class behavior towards the child... I read Hitler to a classroom...that doesn't mean I am trying to espouse or support his belief syste3m... it serves a purpose, you know?

I can't defend or denounce it... the fact is that it was probably done for a reason... i know how the teaching mind works... There are tens of millions of people in the United States that have some affiliation to a homosexual lifestyle... i can't help but think this was done woith a specific reason in mind...
Nate - They're second graders!

You are trying to rationalize it. Don't.

This is just plain wrong no matter what.

phinfan3411
09-24-2008, 06:51 PM
What is it with this stuff about homeschoolers being "messed up" socially? The few that I have known still had friends in their neighborhood, and did everything else normal kids would do. If homeschooling was a practice of keeping kids locked away from the entire world, I could understand, but I do not feel that is the case.

Jason Taylor was home schooled, I hear he is doing well.

Ferretsquig
09-24-2008, 07:05 PM
The ones I saw had some interesting reactions when they got to college and finally freed themselves from their overbearing parents. All of them had been sheltered from those "bad" things we poor public school kids had to deal with.....violence, sex, drugs etc... There were two reactions I saw when they were thrown into an environment with a plethora of all these things. Either they crawled into a cocoon and tried to ignore it all or they went wild with all these new experiences. Either way it wasn't a healthy reaction.

Dolphan7
09-24-2008, 07:13 PM
The ones I saw had some interesting reactions when they got to college and finally freed themselves from their overbearing parents. All of them had been sheltered from those "bad" things we poor public school kids had to deal with.....violence, sex, drugs etc... There were two reactions I saw when they were thrown into an environment with a plethora of all these things. Either they crawled into a cocoon and tried to ignore it all or they went wild with all these new experiences. Either way it wasn't a healthy reaction.
Yep. Note to homeschool parents - make sure you introduce plenty of hedonism, alcohol and drugs so that your kid doesn't freak out in college.

Dolphins9954
09-24-2008, 07:19 PM
The ones I saw had some interesting reactions when they got to college and finally freed themselves from their overbearing parents. All of them had been sheltered from those "bad" things we poor public school kids had to deal with.....violence, sex, drugs etc... There were two reactions I saw when they were thrown into an environment with a plethora of all these things. Either they crawled into a cocoon and tried to ignore it all or they went wild with all these new experiences. Either way it wasn't a healthy reaction.


So let's make it illegal and put their parents in jail. Seems like a reasonable solution.

poornate
09-24-2008, 11:06 PM
The problem is Nate, in the real world, people don't differentiate between tolerance and acceptance. The world view is they go hand in hand in more cases than I care to mention. Now you expect children to make that distinction?

I don't expect them to have license to make another child to feel unwelcome in a classroom (if it is truly an issue)... I have thought about this quite a bit since earlier... I don't think I would have used that book... under any circumstance... I think that if it was used to confront an issue that had arisen in the class, it was a poor choice...I read the book and think it could create class disruptions and issues... I'm never into inviting problems to a classroom... I also can see a problem with the way traditional male/female relationships are portrayed negatively in the book...

Now... I still bet it was used to address a classroom issue.... If it was put out there for a political reason, or for the sake of controversy... that teacher isn't doing what they should be doing as an educator... there are educative and miseducative items in a classroom... either can challenge students to appraise information and come to high level realizations about the worth and validity of what they are assessing (and yes, all kids, regardless of age, do and learn the same ways)... there are also uneducative experiences... I think this falls into that category....

So I think I agree with you on this instance... I also know it is isolated... and still have no problem with parents having to be AT LEAST tested before they homeschool children.

The_Dark_Knight
09-25-2008, 03:51 AM
I was going to post on this topic last night, but I was a little too tired to keep a coherent thought.

I've read through some of the responses and admittedly skimmed over others. I think this is an absolute travesty over the rights of parents versus the rights of the state. We've had plenty of debates and all have pretty much agreed in one form or fashion that our education system basically sucks! Teachers complain that parents don't get involved enough and teachers are so frustrated with laws and regulations requiring them to play parent and guardian that teaching has become almost an after thought. Now with that being said, how can anyone side with this court ruling when you have a parent electing to take on the responsibility of home schooling their child?

A child who is homeschooled is not receiving the education that Mama Bouchier gave her son Bobby Bouchier. He's not going to learn that alligators are so aggressive because they have all of those teeth and no toothbrush or that euphoria comes in the rays of sunshine. Has anyone even bothered to consider the enormous responsibility a parents assumes when he or she elects to homeschool their child?

Each state has their own achievement standards that must be met in order for the state to recognize the students accomplishments and deems the child to have passed the grade. These students have to pass academic requirements which are graded by the STATE, not the parent...and end of year tests are issued by the state, not the parent. Sure, the test may be adminstered by the parent, but it is graded by the state. So with that being said, whether or not a parent is "qualified" to teach their child is ultimately decided when the state board of education grades final exams.

Now, on a personal note. My wife's cousin has 5 children. Paty homeschools all of them, except the oldest (Sabrina) as she is now in high school. Sabrina wanted to go to school once she passed middle school. Sabrina is a straight A student and a member of the National Honor Society. She plays softball and soccer and is always going to the movies and bowling with her friends from school. The point?

The education she received from her mother from the time she started school at home more than adequately prepared her for the "formal" classroom instruction she receives in high school. And her social skills OBVIOUSLY weren't suppressed as she is so active with her extracurricular activies. (I admittedly was concerned about this, but have seen first hand my concerns were proven wrong).

The thing that truly confuses me about this ruling is what brought it up int he first place? Is the state of California's homeschooled children a bunch of Bobby Bouchiers or are they a bunch of my "cousin-in-law" (?) Sabrina?

Look for an injunction on this ruling and look for this ruling to be challenged in the US Supreme Court.

poornate
09-25-2008, 09:44 AM
We've had plenty of debates and all have pretty much agreed in one form or fashion that our education system basically sucks! Teachers complain that parents don't get involved enough and teachers are so frustrated with laws and regulations requiring them to play parent and guardian that teaching has become almost an after thought.

I don't agree that our education system sucks... i think the opposite... the truth is that our education system is better now than it has ever been... There are more qualified teachers than there have ever been... the schools are better than they have ever been... rote memorization style teaching is a dying animal... Kids are engaged with experiences instead of talked to by a "sage on a stage".... What has plummeted is public perception of schools.... Why? American values... when kids express exactly what they have been raised to express... a sense of entitlement, apathy, a lack of motivation, a low value in education matters, no home support system showing up in there lives.... The system doesn't suck... it could grow and improve, sure, but most things can do that... But to say it sucks really reduces the people who devote their lives to it...