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MDFINFAN
09-26-2008, 08:44 PM
If BS were currency, Palin could bail out Wall Street herself.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDZiMDhjYTU1NmI5Y2MwZjg2MWNiMWMyYTUxZDkwNTE=

Ouch! and this from a conservative at a conservative news site..

Tetragrammaton
09-27-2008, 12:58 AM
The Katie Couric disaster just about sealed it. Most of America has woken up to what the pick was.

Mr772
09-27-2008, 03:31 AM
I'm shocked I went to see what the polls said from all the major news outlets and found that all said Obama won the debate. The shocking part, even the fox news poll on their site said Obama bested McCain 55% over 45%.

I guess Americans of all back grounds are smarter now after having to endure 7.5 years of Bush.

MDFINFAN
09-27-2008, 11:17 AM
The Katie Couric disaster just about sealed it. Most of America has woken up to what the pick was.

Well I certainly don't think her performance helped the McCain\Palin ticket, she was no where to be heard from after the debate, Biden was on at least 2 networks that I saw... This is the most boxed in VP canidate I've ever saw. I actually think her interview performances will make her debates one of the most watched vp events in decades.

ohall
09-27-2008, 11:51 AM
I almost feel sorry for you guys.

MDFINFAN
09-27-2008, 12:36 PM
I almost feel sorry for you guys.

As do we for you...it's tough, we understand..:up:

FinFatale
09-27-2008, 12:49 PM
Well I certainly don't think her performance helped the McCain\Palin ticket, she was no where to be heard from after the debate, Biden was on at least 2 networks that I saw... This is the most boxed in VP canidate I've ever saw. I actually think her interview performances will make her debates one of the most watched vp events in decades.

Senator Biden, with ALL his experience , really doesn't seem to be doing so hot in his interviews, he's messing up large, maybe he should take a break himself....

ohall
09-27-2008, 12:49 PM
As do we for you...it's tough, we understand..:up:

lol you speak for everyone now? OK!

My point is you guys go after this WOMAN on this MBoard and make all kinds of sexists remarks, but if anyone mentions one thing about Obama that person is labeled a racist.

Yea I know you don't see it.

BillParFan
09-27-2008, 01:56 PM
lol you speak for everyone now? OK!

My point is you guys go after this WOMAN on this MBoard and make all kinds of sexists remarks, but if anyone mentions one thing about Obama that person is labeled a racist.

Yea I know you don't see it.

I noticed you never deal in specifics. Try this............


And now, an excerpt from my inner monologue, as transcribed while watching various clips from Sarah Palin's interview with Katie Couric (I can't link to them; they're too painful):


And that, Douthat, is why nobody's ever going to hire you to help (http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/my_pick_for_veep.php) pick (http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/why_veeps_matter.php) their running mate.
But hey, maybe it's all just effing brilliant rope-a-dope for the Biden debate ....Ross Douthat (http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/sarah_the_unready_ii.php), author of Grand New Party: How Republicans Can Win the Working Class and Save the American Dream


Couric: But can you give me any other concrete examples? Because I know you've said Barack Obama is a lot of talk and no action. Can you give me any other examples in his 26 years of John McCain truly taking a stand on this?
Palin: I can give you examples of things that John McCain has done, that has shown his foresight, his pragmatism, and his leadership abilities. And that is what America needs today.
Couric: I'm just going to ask you one more time - not to belabor the point. Specific examples in his 26 years of pushing for more regulation.
Palin: I'll try to find you some and I'll bring them to you.
Priceless! :sidelol:

ohall
09-27-2008, 03:06 PM
I noticed you never deal in specifics. Try this............

Ross Douthat (http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/sarah_the_unready_ii.php), author of Grand New Party: How Republicans Can Win the Working Class and Save the American Dream

Priceless! :sidelol:

I was very specific, sorry you missed it.

As far as your specifics I honestly think the AVG person knows what Couric was doing. Trying to create a gotcha moment is not what this political race is about. We are looking for answers, not for the media to creat gotcha moments. Do we need to remind you of all the gotcha moments Obama has had?

It's an immature game for immature ppl IMO.

MDFINFAN
09-27-2008, 03:11 PM
lol you speak for everyone now? OK!

My point is you guys go after this WOMAN on this MBoard and make all kinds of sexists remarks, but if anyone mentions one thing about Obama that person is labeled a racist.

Yea I know you don't see it.

Ohall, did this post go after Palin in a sexist way? I merely shared that other repubs are seeing the same things in her that we who disagree with her see. In no way did I attack her in a sexist way.

MDFINFAN
09-27-2008, 03:14 PM
Senator Biden, with ALL his experience , really doesn't seem to be doing so hot in his interviews, he's messing up large, maybe he should take a break himself....


i don't disagree with you that Biden's has his share of gaffes, but I just don't think ppl are coming away thinking the guy doesn't have a clue, and the conservative writer wrote here. Do you honestly think Palin is ready for prime time...??

MDFINFAN
09-27-2008, 03:21 PM
I was very specific, sorry you missed it.

As far as your specifics I honestly think the AVG person knows what Couric was doing. Trying to create a gotcha moment is not what this political race is about. We are looking for answers, not for the media to creat gotcha moments. Do we need to remind you of all the gotcha moments Obama has had?

It's an immature game for immature ppl IMO.

Trying Ohall, she nail it, there was defintely a gotcha moment, and the reason gotcha moments seem to be created is because of her earlier gaffes.. She's a walking gaffe machine Ohall... this lady doesn't know anything about the US gov't, she may know AK gov't, but she's out of her league on the National scene..

ohall
09-27-2008, 03:24 PM
Ohall, did this post go after Palin in a sexist way? I merely shared that other repubs are seeing the same things in her that we who disagree with her see. In no way did I attack her in a sexist way.


My point is you guys go after this WOMAN on this MBoard and make all kinds of sexists remarks, but if anyone mentions one thing about Obama that person is labeled a racist.

Yes you guys have been going after Palin in this fashion since McCain made his choice for VP. For some reasons some of you think you can go after these ppl when it comes to age and their sex, yet when someone mentions anything negative about Obama they are automatically a racist.

I'm use to the double standard, it's how America operates these days, but I don't have to like it.

As far as the LINK you provided, I'm sorry I can't take anyone seriously who calls them self a CON who says Palin should quit. 2 + 2 = 4 not 500. She obviously has something personal against Palin, and I doubt it has anything to do with any of the things she listed as the issues she has with her. Often women can be the most sexist when it comes to other women who have power.

shula_guy
09-27-2008, 03:43 PM
I met someone last night whom had an intresting perspective on this. She was going to vote for McCain until he named his VP. She believes Palin was appointed more for political points instead of being the best qualified running mate. My response was basically so what, most canidates base their running mates selection on that. They look for someone who bring a key state into their camp.

Her retort was intresting. she believes both canidates VP's should be closely scruntized because she believes whichever person is elected stands a good chance of completing their terms of the presidency. She thinks McCain's age/health is an issue and Obamas race is an issue and niether one of them styand very good chances of serving full term. So for her the VP is a very big deal. I wonder how many other americans have similiar concerns and are focusing on the VP more then they normally would.

I also find it strange that Palin has not been in front of a camera yet since the debate. I dont know if it really means anything, but I certainly think people are anxious to hear her weigh in on the debate, and feed us the expected redderick of how she thinks McCain clearly outlined why he is a better choice to be our next president.

phinfan3411
09-27-2008, 06:38 PM
I have been less than impressed with some of her interviews, I put some of the blame on the handlers coddling, and hiding her, I believe, or she looks like she is a little nervous about these interviews, knowing that most of the press is against her, (do not care what you say, it is true imo). I think they should have unleashed her from the beginning, but they have not, and in many cases have forced McCain's stances on her, when I liked hers (for the most part) better in the first place.

In closing, I will not say anything negative about Obama/Biden, even though I do not live in Missouri, I still do not want to chance incarceration, as I bruise easily, and do not play well with others.... everyone all together now.......Heil Obama!

What a country, he, and his campaign can kiss my ***.

dreday
09-27-2008, 10:00 PM
I'm stealing this from another board, but I think it encapsulates the mental state of people who defend Sarah Palin....

http://www.plastic.com/comments.html...3442953;cid=43


When I listen to conservatives and Republicans talking about what a great pick Palin was — after all, she is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage, which is all that really counts in a potential President of the United States — I find myself remembering a class in Small Group Interaction from back in 1969.

The teacher gave us a tricky math puzzle, and after we had all attempted to solve it, he told everyone who had the answer "0" to get up and sit in one corner of the room, everyone who had "1" to get up and sit in another corner, everyone who had "6" to sit in a third corner, and everyone who had "12" to sit in the fourth corner. (No one had any other answer.) We then proceeded to debate the correct answer to a math question. Each team picked a debater and each gave arguments for the answer his/her team had picked. At the end of the first debate, anyone who thought s/he had the wrong answer was told to leave his/her group and join the group s/he thought had the right answer. One group disappeared entirely. We then had a second round of debate between the three remaining groups. After the second debate, another group disappeared. We had a third and a fourth round of debate. No one changed sides after the third or fourth debates, and the game was over.

The teacher announced which answer was correct, and the "winning" team cheered and the losing team groused for a bit. But the object of the game was only then revealed. The teacher asked for a show of hands among the team that had the wrong answer: how many had known that their answer was wrong? About a third of the hands went up. The teacher asked the follow-up question: Why didn't you change sides? The answers were what the whole class was actually about. One person refused to switch because he had been on the "0" side from the beginning and didn't want to desert those who had come to agree with him. Another refused to switch because she had a great seat in the front row of her group and wouldn't have gotten as good a seat if she had switched. Another said all his friends were in group "0" and he had no intention of joining the other group and leaving his friends. Still another thought that the "12" group was "arrogant." And so it went, as person after person gave his/her rationale for standing up for a position that s/he knew was wrong.

This class was about a math problem. There was only one correct answer. If apparently extraneous considerations are decisive in determining the correct answer to a math question, how much more do they apply in contexts in which there are arguably more than one correct answer?

It's easier to argue for Sarah Palin's qualifications to serve as Vice President than it is to argue for the wrong answer to a math problem. Many of the people doing it vigorously here on Plastic probably know as well as Zakaria that Palin is entirely ignorant when it comes to foreign policy or economic issues, that while she may be a charismatic politician from a small state she couldn't really serve as an effective President if she were called on to do so. But still they argue, for reasons that they will never be called on to reveal in as stark a manner as the students in my Small Group Interaction class were. They stand up with their friends, they stand up for the views of people they think are their allies and/or against the views of people they dislike for any of a range of reasons, they think that favoring their "in-group" against "out-groups" is a moral imperative. Whatever. Palin's interview with Couric was truly a train-wreck, she was not coherent on important issues, and she really doesn't belong in national executive office, and slashing out at people who know these things and say them doesn't really change the facts any.

phinfan3411
09-27-2008, 10:59 PM
I'm stealing this from another board, but I think it encapsulates the mental state of people who defend Sarah Palin....

http://www.plastic.com/comments.html...3442953;cid=43


On other days i'm a racist, today my mental "state" forces me to stay with my original group( my original group was Ron Paul's). Well, I can't wait until I see what all of you "higher beings" that have come to see the light, and follow Obama, will call me tomorrow.

Do I know for sure who will be a better President, no, I don't. I think McCain will, and that is who I am going to vote for. I liked the Palin pick, if you look two topics up I said I did not like her answers in the Couric interview.

I come to this forum to participate in discussions on the topics of the day, I do not come here to "change people over", or to tell them how stupid they are to be a Obama backer, most of the people who participate here, are already pretty well decided.

You do not like Palin, fine, do not vote for her. I have a problem with politicians, I think most are scum, and tend to gravitate to the non-conventional, you probably do not, and value Biden's thirty some years as a Washington insider, fine. I do not think foreign policy experience is such a big deal in a VP candidate, understanding what their job will be. You might, and by god, Biden would be THE choice for you.

Just don't come on here acting "holier than thou" because you do not like Palin, please...

dreday
09-28-2008, 01:28 AM
On other days i'm a racist, today my mental "state" forces me to stay with my original group( my original group was Ron Paul's). Well, I can't wait until I see what all of you "higher beings" that have come to see the light, and follow Obama, will call me tomorrow.

Do I know for sure who will be a better President, no, I don't. I think McCain will, and that is who I am going to vote for. I liked the Palin pick, if you look two topics up I said I did not like her answers in the Couric interview.

I come to this forum to participate in discussions on the topics of the day, I do not come here to "change people over", or to tell them how stupid they are to be a Obama backer, most of the people who participate here, are already pretty well decided.

You do not like Palin, fine, do not vote for her. I have a problem with politicians, I think most are scum, and tend to gravitate to the non-conventional, you probably do not, and value Biden's thirty some years as a Washington insider, fine. I do not think foreign policy experience is such a big deal in a VP candidate, understanding what their job will be. You might, and by god, Biden would be THE choice for you.

Just don't come on here acting "holier than thou" because you do not like Palin, please...

Whatever...Some phinfan3411 finheaven dude just told me I acted "holier than thou" on a message board.Must be your way of acting "tough" without attacking.Haha funny.You make me laugh.

Is there a problem?I just stated my opinion.Message board correct?If it was something you wanted to hear,you would have been fine with it..No need to get your panties in a bunch.:up:

Next....

Dolphan7
09-28-2008, 01:40 AM
I think he was referring to a boil over from another thread Dre. Don't sweat it.

dreday
09-28-2008, 01:42 AM
Ah,ok my bad.I need to catch up with this forum.Didn't mean to come off as a jackass...

Dolphan7
09-28-2008, 01:49 AM
Ah,ok my bad.I need to catch up with this forum.Didn't mean to come off as a jackass...You didn't.:lol:

shula_guy
09-28-2008, 01:59 AM
I'm stealing this from another board, but I think it encapsulates the mental state of people who defend Sarah Palin....

http://www.plastic.com/comments.html...3442953;cid=43

It could just as easily encapsulate the mental state of those who attack her. Could it not?

dreday
09-28-2008, 12:09 PM
It could just as easily encapsulate the mental state of those who attack her. Could it not?


http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/09/16gc2vs-1.jpg

How did I know that was coming.:lol:..We aren't defending who's attacking her...Besides it is she who is having trouble doing interviews.

No double standard here.

dreday
09-28-2008, 12:21 PM
And surprise...surprise...surprise! Democrats are supporting their candidate and Republicans are supporting theirs.Independents fall somewhere in between... It's funny how people come on here and try to get everyone to see their point of view. The truth of the matter is that a lot of minds are made up and they see this a lot like a football game. Nothing is solved here but making yourself feel better by running down the other candidate. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours is pretty much everyone's proclamation.

I'll place my vote Nov.4th...

shula_guy
09-28-2008, 12:48 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/09/16gc2vs-1.jpg

How did I know that was coming.:lol:..We aren't defending who's attacking her...Besides it is she who is having trouble doing interviews.

No double standard here.


You knew it was coming because it fairly applies to both those for and against her or anyone or anything for that matter. While your parable is clever it does not prove the point that you seem to be trying to make. Unless I am missunderstanding you, You seem to be implying that anyone who defends Palin is choosing the incorrect answer and are defending it because they dont want to change their answer even they know that their answer is incorrect. That my friend is just plain silly. She may or may not be a good canidate, but noone who dosnt think she is part of the best team is not going to support her.

Instead of attacking her now, I guess because you cant find anything to attack or you've warn it out and of those past jabs you were taken, and they have lost they're effectivness. In either case your intentions are transparent. Just because you dont support her does not mean anyone who does is knowingly and intentionally supporting a bad choice.

Once again, at the risk of being redundant, I will remind you that your clever little parable that demonstrates the nature of man (if we are to accept the results in that fable as facts), can just as easily apply to the side which you are on. The side that is attacking her supporters without presenting a substantial case of why.


BTW I found your clever little pic art to be impolite, rude, and insulting. If you think it is a cute way of making your point, it is not. I will thank you to show my posts the same respect that I have treated yours with.

Qwan King
09-28-2008, 04:13 PM
I was very specific, sorry you missed it.

As far as your specifics I honestly think the AVG person knows what Couric was doing. Trying to create a gotcha moment is not what this political race is about. We are looking for answers, not for the media to creat gotcha moments. Do we need to remind you of all the gotcha moments Obama has had?

It's an immature game for immature ppl IMO.

What do you expect? Katie Kouric's ratings are so bad she is halfway out the door. She is desperate.

It;s funny reading lefties jumping on Palin while Biden sticks his foot in his mouth nearly daily.

The bottomline in this election is that McCain is a centrist candidate, Obama is a far left candidate, in the end the undecided voters in the middle will vote McCain.

This country needs a President who has proven he can cross the aisle and get things done, thats McCain, not the very far left Obama.

Its always funny how these far left candidates try to move to the middle to get elected, but they fool no one as their voting records betray who they really are.

Tetragrammaton
09-28-2008, 04:54 PM
The bottomline in this election is that McCain is a centrist candidate, Obama is a far left candidate, in the end the undecided voters in the middle will vote McCain.

The bottom line is that McCain is a far right candidate, and Obama tilts right. You are mistaken.

Qwan King
09-28-2008, 05:04 PM
The bottom line is that McCain is a far right candidate, and Obama tilts right. You are mistaken.

You must not follow senate voting records, Mr Obama has the most liberal voting record in the Senate.

You also must not have followed politics much in the last several years, McCain has repeatedly worked with democrats on several issues and legistlation much to the consternation of his own party.

If you don't know this, you really should do more research on the subject so that you are an informed voter, and not just a bandwagon voter that likes his speechs.

dolphinzen
09-28-2008, 05:21 PM
You must not follow senate voting records, Mr Obama has the most liberal voting record in the Senate.

You also must not have followed politics much in the last several years, McCain has repeatedly worked with democrats on several issues and legistlation much to the consternation of his own party.

If you don't know this, you really should do more research on the subject so that you are an informed voter, and not just a bandwagon voter that likes his speechs.

I thought john kerry had the most liberal voting record in the Senate.:rolleyes:

Qwan King
09-28-2008, 05:27 PM
I thought john kerry had the most liberal voting record in the Senate.:rolleyes:

He did, until Obama joined the Senate.

The far left has control of the democratic party now, Nancy Pelosi is a perfect example of this.

phinfan3411
09-28-2008, 05:46 PM
The bottom line is that McCain is a far right candidate, and Obama tilts right. You are mistaken.

Wayward, believe it or not, I usually agree with your posts (not that it will make you feel any better). On this one, I have to disagree. For the most part, Presidential Elections go like this all the time. Both candidates have their beliefs, and their voting records to give you an idea of where they stand.

They run for President, and see where many of their stances cost them votes, so they try and move a little to steal a few votes, many times on several issues. The problem with this is, once they are elected they tend to go back to the way they were their whole life, rather than the 6 month period before the election.

Not saying which "way" is superior, McCain is much closer to the center, and Obama definitely to the left.

Tetragrammaton
09-28-2008, 05:57 PM
You must not follow senate voting records, Mr Obama has the most liberal voting record in the Senate.

You also must not have followed politics much in the last several years, McCain has repeatedly worked with democrats on several issues and legistlation much to the consternation of his own party.

If you don't know this, you really should do more research on the subject so that you are an informed voter, and not just a bandwagon voter that likes his speechs.

Most liberal in the Senate means least conservative.

I never said McCain didn't work with Democrats, and only you have mentioned it. Of course he works with them, they are both overwhelmingly right-wing.

If Obama is far left, what is Dennis Kucinich? Surely we would all agree Kucinich is to the left of Obama. And then, what of Brian Moore, the Socialist Party candidate, who is farther left than Kucinich? See where your reasoning falters?

Your parameters are off base completely. A two-party system will do that to you. Don't call me uninformed when you display an elementary understanding of the different viewpoints in the political spectrum.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008 This should help you.

Tetragrammaton
09-28-2008, 05:59 PM
Both candidates have their beliefs, and their voting records to give you an idea of where they stand.

I agree.


Not saying which "way" is superior, McCain is much closer to the center, and Obama definitely to the left.

But this I cannot. I would agree that they differ ideologically, but I would argue that

a. the difference is minimal, and
b. they are both to the right of the spectrum.

Qwan King
09-28-2008, 06:07 PM
Most liberal in the Senate means least conservative.

I never said McCain didn't work with Democrats, and only you have mentioned it. Of course he works with them, they are both overwhelmingly right-wing.

If Obama is far left, what is Dennis Kucinich? Surely we would all agree Kucinich is to the left of Obama. And then, what of Brian Moore, the Socialist Party candidate, who is farther left than Kucinich? See where your reasoning falters?

Your parameters are off base completely. A two-party system will do that to you. You should try to be less patronizing. Don't call me uninformed when you display an elementary understanding of the different viewpoints in the political spectrum.



What can I say, time and life experience will help you better understand all of this, but it is abundantly clear that Obama is far left, and voting records is the best measure of this, not your or my opinion of who is what in this regard.

My reasoning is based on actual voting records, while yours is being shaped by your opinion based upon political pandering for votes pre-election.

Once you've experienced a few more political seasons, you'll get this.:up:

Tetragrammaton
09-28-2008, 06:19 PM
What can I say, time and life experience will help you better understand all of this, but it is abundantly clear that Obama is far left, and voting records is the best measure of this, not your or my opinion of who is what in this regard.

My reasoning is based on actual voting records, while yours is being shaped by your opinion based upon political pandering for votes pre-election.

Once you've experienced a few more political seasons, you'll get this.:up:

Why can't you talk like an adult? The Political Compass compiles information from their speeches, their stances on the issues, and their voting record. The site contains no partisanship; after all, they are portraying both candidates in ways they wouldn't like to be portrayed.

You are being taken in hook, line, and sinker by the media and the campaigns and then you try to say I am. I cannot fault you; after all, the majority of voters would agree, in principle, to your parameters. The media has tried for years to portray the two parties on opposite sides of the political spectrum, when in reality they are very close to one another.

You realize I am calling Obama right-wing, right? NO Obama outlet has tried to make that argument. As an Obama supporter, why would I try to take that line as a positive? Obama has tried to portray himself as different than the traditional political machine.

You are the second or third poster to try and attack my age, and it doesn't work. After all, if my age was such a factor, you could pick apart my posts. Instead, your response contained no rebuttal to mine, and instead repeated your ageist rant while trying to replay the same narrative I responded to about Obama being far-left.

The Dark Knight, Dolphan7, and phinfan3411 have been able to prove me wrong by going at points and not the number next to my username. Those who have reverted to ageism prove they have no point.

Qwan King
09-28-2008, 06:27 PM
You realize I am calling Obama right-wing, right? NO Obama outlet has tried to make that argument. As an Obama supporter, why would I try to take that line as a positive? Obama has tried to portray himself as different than the traditional political machine.

You are the second or third poster to try and attack my age, and it doesn't work. After all, if my age was such a factor, you could pick apart my posts. Instead, your response contained no rebuttal to mine, and instead repeated your ageist rant while trying to replay the same narrative I responded to about Obama being far-left.

The Dark Knight, Dolphan7, and phinfan3411 have been able to prove me wrong by going at points and not the number next to my username. Those who have reverted to ageism prove they have no point.

I call it like I see it, its not your fault your young and haven't been thru this enough to understand it.

Saying Obama is right wing is clearly wrong and displays your youth on the subject, I doubt too many would disagree with that assessment.

MDFINFAN
09-28-2008, 08:31 PM
I have been less than impressed with some of her interviews, I put some of the blame on the handlers coddling, and hiding her, I believe, or she looks like she is a little nervous about these interviews, knowing that most of the press is against her, (do not care what you say, it is true imo). I think they should have unleashed her from the beginning, but they have not, and in many cases have forced McCain's stances on her, when I liked hers (for the most part) better in the first place.

In closing, I will not say anything negative about Obama/Biden, even though I do not live in Missouri, I still do not want to chance incarceration, as I bruise easily, and do not play well with others.... everyone all together now.......Heil Obama!

What a country, he, and his campaign can kiss my ***.

After this post P3411 trying to defend palin, maybe you need to be bruised, it may knock some sense back into ya..:sidelol: Just kiddin, before anyone think I'm insulting P3411, I'm not, he and I have a short history of going after each other.. I actually like him, for those of you who don't know..

P3411, on a serious note..there is no defense of her, I don't think they let her out, because who's the first to see the problem...those who are handling her. They've tried to let her out, because they understand keeping such a tight lid on is begining to make Americans question the choice... and when she's out, I have to question McCain even more... and if you guys can't see a problem with her, then it's more than Obama's a liberal..to even want to consider this ticket...

The 2nd part of this is McCain definitely had nothing in his plan for the middle class, it the same ol trickle down effect as usual, when will you guys wake up and realize you're voting against you're own interest.. What will it take, do we have to absolutely go down to a 4th world country? That's where we're headed and you guys can't see it.. the signs are all around, and instead of klinging to guns, you're klinging to fail policies....McCain's plan is the same as bush..read his d?>n website and see it for yourself...:rolleyes2:

Blackocrates
09-28-2008, 10:53 PM
I call it like I see it, its not your fault your young and haven't been thru this enough to understand it.

Saying Obama is right wing is clearly wrong and displays your youth on the subject, I doubt too many would disagree with that assessment.

I disagree with that assessment. Wayward has proven himself to be quite knowledgeable with politics. He's mature for his age, he doesn't take cheap shots at other posters.

I agree with Wayward, Obama is not a liberal. He's for the death penalty, voted for the FISA, hasn't forced the issue on pulling the troops out by voting to cease funding for the war, now he's for offshore drilling in certain instances, etc. These aren't liberal positions. Democrats haven't had a liberal in office that I can remember. Clinton wasn't liberal, nor Carter. I don't know what conservatives would do if they saw a real liberal that was a presidental candidate.

Blackocrates
09-28-2008, 11:19 PM
http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008 This should help you.

This may clear up why I think Obama isn't liberal. Here's my stats:
Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15
According to the scale, I'm hanging out with Ghandi and The Dalai Lama. Not bad company if you ask me. :up:

milldog
09-29-2008, 12:00 AM
I call it like I see it, its not your fault your young and haven't been thru this enough to understand it.

Saying Obama is right wing is clearly wrong and displays your youth on the subject, I doubt too many would disagree with that assessment.

Sorry, but wayward comes off as someone who knows their politics and posts regularly. When you attack him/her (I don't know?) because of his/her age, you're the one who sounds like a child! I've only seen a few posts from you so I could be wrong!:up:

MDFINFAN
09-29-2008, 12:04 AM
What can I say, time and life experience will help you better understand all of this, but it is abundantly clear that Obama is far left, and voting records is the best measure of this, not your or my opinion of who is what in this regard.

My reasoning is based on actual voting records, while yours is being shaped by your opinion based upon political pandering for votes pre-election.

Once you've experienced a few more political seasons, you'll get this.:up:

So what you're saying is by voting against Bush that makes him a leftist.. In the way politics is played in voting, how does one vote middle.. the bills are presented either with a left or right tilt.. All of Obama's votes haven't been left.. I'm sure you would think a lot of his early votes, say when the repubs were in charge and giving Bush everything he wanted and Obama voting against them would seem leftist, but since the Dem's have taken over, I think he's more centrist..

MDFINFAN
09-29-2008, 12:05 AM
Wayward, believe it or not, I usually agree with your posts (not that it will make you feel any better). On this one, I have to disagree. For the most part, Presidential Elections go like this all the time. Both candidates have their beliefs, and their voting records to give you an idea of where they stand.

They run for President, and see where many of their stances cost them votes, so they try and move a little to steal a few votes, many times on several issues. The problem with this is, once they are elected they tend to go back to the way they were their whole life, rather than the 6 month period before the election.

Not saying which "way" is superior, McCain is much closer to the center, and Obama definitely to the left.

Might want to show some evidence to back that up..

Mr772
09-29-2008, 12:46 AM
You must not follow senate voting records, Mr Obama has the most liberal voting record in the Senate.

You also must not have followed politics much in the last several years, McCain has repeatedly worked with democrats on several issues and legistlation much to the consternation of his own party.

If you don't know this, you really should do more research on the subject so that you are an informed voter, and not just a bandwagon voter that likes his speechs.


You Sir, must not follow the senate voting records or you would not profess a partisan lie that you pretend you researched yourself.

Tetragrammaton
09-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Wow, thanks everyone.

The whole idea of Obama being left makes less and less sense as you think about it. Here are some leftist views I hold that Obama doesn't.

1. Legalization of gay marriage. He is only for civil unions.
2. Abolition of the death penalty. Obama has recently denounced a Supreme Court ruling outlawing the death penalty for child rapists.
3. Single-payer health insurance. Obama's system leans more Canadian than British, which is what "liberals" like Kucinich would prefer.

MD called him a centrist, which is just about correct.

The constant use of left and right is borderline offensive. If we use that formula, where is Ron Paul? Where is Dennis Kucinich, Ralph Nader, and the Greens? Where is the theocratic Constitution Party? Where are the real socialists?

Blackocrates
09-29-2008, 09:34 AM
According to the chart provided in the link, Ron Paul isn't as libertarian as his followers claim he is.

Blackocrates
09-29-2008, 09:36 AM
If other posters take the test, you should post your stats. I'm curious to what the pofo is made of.

Tetragrammaton
09-29-2008, 09:45 AM
According to the chart provided in the link, Ron Paul isn't as libertarian as his followers claim he is.

What I found was that the Libertarian candidates differ wildly. If you go to the 2004 election page, Michael Badnarik was on the lower right hand side, where Mike Gravel is located in the 2008 election. Ron Paul was on the upper right, but closer to the middle, while Barr is up there with McCain.

The Libertarian Party, who I used to support, has become a bit of a joke. They are used and abused by people because of their large networking and being the most powerful third party. They are becoming ideologically bankrupt.

Tetragrammaton
09-29-2008, 09:51 AM
This may clear up why I think Obama isn't liberal. Here's my stats:
Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15
According to the scale, I'm hanging out with Ghandi and The Dalai Lama. Not bad company if you ask me. :up:

I just took it again. I vary from being all the way at the bottom left to being a centrist libertarian.

Today, I am:
Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.46

So, you are more economically liberal than I am, but I am more liberal socially, but we are pretty close.

milldog
09-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Wayward, are you a man or a woman? Just curious.

Blackocrates
09-29-2008, 10:49 AM
Wayward, are you a man or a woman? Just curious.

He's all man, everybody is except finfatale. :D

Tetragrammaton
09-29-2008, 11:10 AM
He's all man, everybody is except finfatale. :D

Agreed.

I think it was funny that, even with a name FinFatale, people confused her gender.

BlueFin
09-29-2008, 11:14 AM
First of all, there are far too many absolutes in that test for it to be an accurate gauge of anyone, things are not always black and white.

Second, as someone else stated, you can never judge a candidate based upon political pandering at election time, only their actual actions in voting is an accurate meter. This is actually true in life in general, actions speak louder than words.

Obama is clearly no centrist, but as usual in recent elections, the far left candidates often try to portray themselves that way, but the public is not that stupid and is not fooled that easily.

shula_guy
09-29-2008, 11:46 AM
Your political compass

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.26

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/09/pcgraphpngphpec038soc2-1.26


Those are my results, for whatever it is worth.

Dolphins9954
09-29-2008, 11:50 AM
First of all, there are far too many absolutes in that test for it to be an accurate gauge of anyone, things are not always black and white.

Second, as someone else stated, you can never judge a candidate based upon political pandering at election time, only their actual actions in voting is an accurate meter. This is actually true in life in general, actions speak louder than words.

Obama is clearly no centrist, but as usual in recent elections, the far left candidates often try to portray themselves that way, but the public is not that stupid and is not fooled that easily.


This message is not approved by Obama's "truth squad". The Gestapo has been informed of your infraction. All Heil Obama!

FinFatale
09-29-2008, 12:33 PM
Most liberal in the Senate means least conservative.

I never said McCain didn't work with Democrats, and only you have mentioned it. Of course he works with them, they are both overwhelmingly right-wing.

If Obama is far left, what is Dennis Kucinich? Surely we would all agree Kucinich is to the left of Obama. And then, what of Brian Moore, the Socialist Party candidate, who is farther left than Kucinich? See where your reasoning falters?

Your parameters are off base completely. A two-party system will do that to you. Don't call me uninformed when you display an elementary understanding of the different viewpoints in the political spectrum.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008 This should help you.




It is important to recognise that The Political Compass™ is a continuum rather than consisting of hard and fast quadrants. For example, Ron Paul on the social scale is actually closer to Dennis Kucinich than to many figures within his own party. But on the economic scale, they are, of course, far apart.
Perhaps the most breath-taking u-turn in the primaries belongs to Mike Gravel, a left-leaning Democrat and undoubted civil libertarian who has now put his lot in with the Libertarian Party. On the social scale this doesn't represent much of a leap, but economically the mercurial Mr.Gravel, a long-standing champion of universal health care and a redistributive economy, has vaulted from social democracy to a radical neo-liberal platform well to the right of most Republicans.



For those who are interested, we include here our earlier chart showing most of the candidates from the Primaries. Observant readers will notice shifts in the positions of Biden, Obama and McCain.

" shifts" ??????????????? OH so indeed this site also acknowledges shifts.............shifts more to the center perhaps as the election winds down......typical election trick...........and how do I know how paritisian this site is or isn't? who runs this site????????.

Blackocrates
09-29-2008, 12:36 PM
I wonder how many fascist we have here. :unsure:

FinFatale
09-29-2008, 01:45 PM
Personally, and WWZ, don't freak ok??? When someone puts their age up, it is going to become an issue as far as life experience goes. It just is. No one will convince me that someone twenty years younger than someone else, no matter how much "book learning" they have has the life experience as the older......it is what it is. I have no less respect for someone because of their age but I do think that it certainly can play a factor in one's opinon and outlook....................and before I get jumped, I am not directing this at WWZ at all. I am just stating what I believe......infact another poster on here is young and his posts are right on the money, but I think to claim to be as experienced as an older person is just as belittling as visa versa......I don't think someone twenty years old would appreciate a ten year old telling them that they have experienced the same in life...............do you get what I mean???????

In my life experience I have found that " respect " begats respect.

MDFINFAN
09-29-2008, 02:26 PM
First of all, there are far too many absolutes in that test for it to be an accurate gauge of anyone, things are not always black and white.

Second, as someone else stated, you can never judge a candidate based upon political pandering at election time, only their actual actions in voting is an accurate meter. This is actually true in life in general, actions speak louder than words.

Obama is clearly no centrist, but as usual in recent elections, the far left candidates often try to portray themselves that way, but the public is not that stupid and is not fooled that easily.

You just made the points...when Obama came into the senate the repubs own the senate and set the agenda...and of course they were working on the agenda Bush set, so if he voted against it...wouldn't that make him look leftist... But look at his record since the Dem's have come in.. it's more centrist... I think if you've paid attention to Obama thoughtout the whole 2 year campaign, he's been pretty consistent.. If anything I think he moved to his natural thoughts on subjects once the dem primary was over.. those positions closely match his chicago days in the senate.

MDFINFAN
09-29-2008, 02:28 PM
This message is not approved by Obama's "truth squad". The Gestapo has been informed of your infraction. All Heil Obama!

Since you're suppose to be in the middle, care to add anything about McVain, the I can do everything person...and notice the GOP are trying to stop ppl from voting, yet again..

Tetragrammaton
09-29-2008, 03:12 PM
" shifts" ??????????????? OH so indeed this site also acknowledges shifts.............shifts more to the center perhaps as the election winds down......typical election trick...........and how do I know how paritisian this site is or isn't? who runs this site????????.

What partisanship could they possibly have? Obama is portrayed as a right winger who is the same as the rest of them, which isn't a plus for him. McCain is portrayed as being far right, which undercuts his maverick image.

I will ask again, to people who have refused to answer. Most people would accept that Kucinich is left of Obama, and the Socialist Party is to the left of Kucinich. If Obama is far left, what are they? Simply, this spectrum being promoted makes no sense.

As for your other post, that is fair to a degree. But it isn't like my views are not held by anyone over the age of 25. I agree with poornate, swordfish, and MD a lot, and they are older than I am. I don't claim experience; for instance, I have given very little insight to the bailout because I admit I do not understand it. I will be honest when I don't know something; if there is ever a thread about middle age depression or hair loss, I will not come in and try to be an expert.

My problem is that the ageism only comes into effect when people have nothing else to say. Instead of debating me, King devolved into a rant about my age instead of my points. If I am so wrong, argue my points.

And if I am old enough to destroy my lungs on cigarettes, get sued, get into enormous amounts of debt, and join the military, I am old enough to post on a forum.

FinFatale
09-29-2008, 03:23 PM
What partisanship could they possibly have? Obama is portrayed as a right winger who is the same as the rest of them, which isn't a plus for him. McCain is portrayed as being far right, which undercuts his maverick image.

I will ask again, to people who have refused to answer. Most people would accept that Kucinich is left of Obama, and the Socialist Party is to the left of Kucinich. If Obama is far left, what are they? Simply, this spectrum being promoted makes no sense.

As for your other post, that is fair to a degree. But it isn't like my views are not held by anyone over the age of 25. I agree with poornate, swordfish, and MD a lot, and they are older than I am. I don't claim experience; for instance, I have given very little insight to the bailout because I admit I do not understand it. I will be honest when I don't know something; if there is ever a thread about middle age depression or hair loss, I will not come in and try to be an expert.

My problem is that the ageism only comes into effect when people have nothing else to say. Instead of debating me, King devolved into a rant about my age instead of my points. If I am so wrong, argue my points.

And if I am old enough to destroy my lungs on cigarettes, get sued, get into enormous amounts of debt, and join the military, I am old enough to post on a forum.

Well I didn't precieve that poster doing that as you did. If this is a sensitive issue for you as it seems to be than I can understand you being touchy on the subject. I didn't not in any way mean to imply that you were not OLD enough to post on this forum. Hell, you could be six years old for all I care.....after all isn't MD like five?????????????? or is that him?????

Dolphins9954
09-29-2008, 03:29 PM
Since you're suppose to be in the middle, care to add anything about McVain, the I can do everything person...and notice the GOP are trying to stop ppl from voting, yet again..


I've said quite a bit about McBama. More Big Government, More Debt, More Spending, More bailouts and More loss of liberties. What I notice is two parties offering us the same exact thing. There is no difference. The 700 billion dollar bailouts. The war in Iraq. Iran. The Patriot Act. FISA. Debt. The Federal Reserve. etc. The list goes on. The decisions have already been made. Choice is an illusion.


This message has not been approved by Obama's "truth squad". The Gestapo is well aware of your violations. And a warrent has been issued for your arrest.

MDFINFAN
09-29-2008, 03:38 PM
I've said quite a bit about McBama. More Big Government, More Debt, More Spending, More bailouts and More loss of liberties. What I notice is two parties offering us the same exact thing. There is no difference. The 700 billion dollar bailouts. The war in Iraq. Iran. The Patriot Act. FISA. Debt. The Federal Reserve. etc. The list goes on. The decisions have already been made. Choice is an illusion.


This message has not been approved by Obama's "truth squad". The Gestapo is well aware of your violations. And a warrent has been issued for your arrest.

I've heard, but you're letting your guard down as you'll address obama directly, but when it comes to McCain, you always add Obama to that, it's beginning to show..that's all. All I ask from you since I consider you the unbais one is to be a little less, share we say bais..

Dolphins9954
09-29-2008, 05:19 PM
I've heard, but you're letting your guard down as you'll address obama directly, but when it comes to McCain, you always add Obama to that, it's beginning to show..that's all. All I ask from you since I consider you the unbais one is to be a little less, share we say bais..


How can't you add Obama to Mccain and vice versa? Their policies are so similar that to criticize one would only lead to criticizing the other. When I'm against the bailouts I have to criticize both of them. When I criticize the War in Iraq, Foreign Policy, Debt, Patriot Act and FISA. I can't criticize one and not the other.

MDFINFAN
09-29-2008, 05:40 PM
How can't you add Obama to Mccain and vice versa? Their policies are so similar that to criticize one would only lead to criticizing the other. When I'm against the bailouts I have to criticize both of them. When I criticize the War in Iraq, Foreign Policy, Debt, Patriot Act and FISA. I can't criticize one and not the other.

Should I point i point out the posts, when it's Obama it's Obama, when it's McVain, you add Obama is the same....heil Obama rings a bell, nothing on McCain...

Where is the I can fix everything, praise me McCain jabs... without Obama being in your response.. You are my watch voter in all this, I expect great posts from you in jabbing equally....