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View Full Version : More college students believe in aliens than in God.



Tetragrammaton
11-24-2008, 10:23 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20081124/sc_livescience/peoplesaidtobelieveinaliensandghostsmorethangod;_ylt=AvccbZGCUc0Yvb70HFXsfR2s0NUE

So when these college kids become consistent voters, will politicians pander to them?

Blackocrates
11-25-2008, 09:01 AM
:lol:

I don't know what to think about that. We all believe in crazy stuff. I've always found it weird that christians criticize others for believing in weird things when they themselves believe in something that's not reasonable (self included).

I personally wish everything were true. I wish there were monsters, aliens, bigfoot, ghosts, Superman, etc. We'd really have something to talk about then. Could you imagine how odd it would be to have to stock up on garlic, silver bullets, holy water, etc.

It would beg the question would you rather become a vampire and live forever on earth? Or would you rather take your chances and die then spend eternity in heaven or hell?

LouPhinFan
11-25-2008, 09:24 AM
After reading the article, I found this survey dubious at best.

Tetragrammaton
11-25-2008, 11:44 AM
For the record, I don't believe in ghosts. It is ridiculous. As for aliens, I do not "believe" in them because they have to exist statistically, if you look at planets close enough to stars across the universe.

A lot of people make fun of me for being aware of the existence of Bigfoot. I saw him when I was stoned and in the woods, and refuse to believe otherwise.

Dolphan7
11-25-2008, 04:54 PM
I am not surprised by this at all. When you continually try to take God out of schools and higher education teaches a steady mantra that we are all descendents of apes, and with all the focus and attention on outspace and the "possibilities" of life existing elsewhere.....you do the math.

Locke
11-25-2008, 05:01 PM
I am not surprised by this at all. When you continually try to take God out of schools and higher education teaches a steady mantra that we are all descendents of apes, and with all the focus and attention on outspace and the "possibilities" of life existing elsewhere.....you do the math.

I think religious studies should be an elective at public schools. You can't force religion into everyone's head, but you need to definitely give kids a choice to take it if they want to. Private religious schools are nice, but most people can't afford them. Its a tough problem. I agree religion has no place in public schools in a role that forces you to intake it, but if some kids want it, they should have that choice...

Blackocrates
11-25-2008, 05:52 PM
I think religious studies should be an elective at public schools. You can't force religion into everyone's head, but you need to definitely give kids a choice to take it if they want to. Private religious schools are nice, but most people can't afford them. Its a tough problem. I agree religion has no place in public schools in a role that forces you to intake it, but if some kids want it, they should have that choice...

I disagree. I don't think any tax payer money should go to any religious classes even if they are electives. Furthermore, who will teach it and how? Are you going to give a quick generic overview of every religion? Only the big ones? Are teachers going to have to go to some seminary school to get trained? When you talk about christianity are you going to branch out into all of the different sects? Do you talk about all of the wars each religion has started? This violation of the constitution would open up a huge can of worms. It's unconstitutional. If kids are that hungry for religious knowledge they can read up on it during their lunch break, after school, and on weekends. It doesn't belong in public schools even as an elective.

Dolphan7
11-25-2008, 05:57 PM
I think religious studies should be an elective at public schools. You can't force religion into everyone's head, but you need to definitely give kids a choice to take it if they want to. Private religious schools are nice, but most people can't afford them. Its a tough problem. I agree religion has no place in public schools in a role that forces you to intake it, but if some kids want it, they should have that choice...For the better part of 200 years of our young country we taught about God as if it were a given, that he does indeed exist. We prospered during those times. When we try to take God out of the picture, we see the country we are in today with it's rampant problems due to decreasing morality and increased focus on self and materialism.

I wish I could stay longer and discuss but I am out the door not to return until Sunday.

Locke
11-25-2008, 05:57 PM
I disagree. I don't think any tax payer money should go to any religious classes even if they are electives. Furthermore, who will teach it and how? Are you going to give a quick generic overview of every religion? Only the big ones? Are teachers going to have to go to some seminary school to get trained? When you talk about christianity are you going to branch out into all of the different sects? Do you talk about all of the wars each religion has started? This violation of the constitution would open up a huge can of worms. It's unconstitutional. If kids are that hungry for religious knowledge they can read up on it during their lunch break, after school, and on weekends. It doesn't belong in public schools even as an elective.

I admittedly didn't think about it much passed my initial post. While I'm not religious in the slightest, I do see the conflict those who are have with evolution being taught in place of their beliefs. You and I both know that evolution has been all but proven, but I think if they choose not to believe it, thats fine. If we shove evolution down their throats, then we're no different than the picketers outside an abortion clinic trying to force their pro-life views down everyone's throat. I think some middle point has to be reached. As long as we treat as it as an us vs them conflict, its going to permanently remain just that, a conflict..

Locke
11-25-2008, 06:06 PM
For the better part of 200 years of our young country we taught about God as if it were a given, that he does indeed exist. We prospered during those times. When we try to take God out of the picture, we see the country we are in today with it's rampant problems due to decreasing morality and increased focus on self and materialism.

I wish I could stay longer and discuss but I am out the door not to return until Sunday.

I would argue that this isn't necessarily tied to religion, but to lifestyles. As an agnostic, I associate with primarily other agnostics. The people around me are probably some of the most upstanding and moral people you'd ever meet. Lack of religion doesn't make you any more likely to be a deviant. I think we could our blame more on the "gangsta" lifestyle that has been dominating TV. Rappers talk about blatantly disrespecting the law in their lyrics, they get in trouble with the law almost daily, they are all over TV. I can't watch BET or MTV for 10 minutes without seeing some guy with 10 pounds of gold and his pants around his thighs. Kids see this and think this is the "cool" lifestyle, and they try to emulate it. There is A LOT of psychological research that supports this. Would religion help these people? I'm sure it would make a difference. However, quite a few other things could curb this behavior as well, none of which related to religion. I think its just same ends, different means..

Blackocrates
11-25-2008, 06:47 PM
I admittedly didn't think about it much passed my initial post. While I'm not religious in the slightest, I do see the conflict those who are have with evolution being taught in place of their beliefs. You and I both know that evolution has been all but proven, but I think if they choose not to believe it, thats fine. If we shove evolution down their throats, then we're no different than the picketers outside an abortion clinic trying to force their pro-life views down everyone's throat. I think some middle point has to be reached. As long as we treat as it as an us vs them conflict, its going to permanently remain just that, a conflict..

I see your point and I don't mind a compromise but this issue doesn't lend itself to one because of the constitution. Evolution is taught in science class because it's a scientific theory that's been put to test with scientific principles. Religion doesn't belong in public schools because of the separation between it and government. It's unfortunate that it's an us v. them argument but on some issues there can't be a compromise because of the constitution.

I guess if there was to be a compromise it would be along the lines of some sort of history/philosophy class. Dogmatic teaching would have to be banned and it wouldn't resemble what the right winged evangelicals would want. Equal mentioning of other religions would have to be there if not in greater form because of our ignorance on other religions aside from christianity. I'd still be against it though and I'm a christian.

On a slightly side note, it's hard to compromise with the right winged evangelicals because they don't want a compromise. They tend to want all or nothing. They're unreasonable with their attacks calling evolution a religion. Their agenda isn't one of education but of disruption with the wedge doctrine. They offer up no solutions only that religion should be side by side with evolution in a science class room. That's what is mind boggling to me. They want to invade the science classroom. They can't begin to offer one scientific principle about how they would evaluate God but that's not their goal. They don't want to implement a scientific principle with God, they only want to disrupt. This isn't the method of a peaceful, loving group. They're bullies in every since of the word, and they're dangerous.

Locke
11-25-2008, 06:55 PM
On a slightly side note, it's hard to compromise with the right winged evangelicals because they don't want a compromise. They tend to want all or nothing.

Yeah, thats the truth for sure. I've had 3 encounters with evangelical christians, and none of them were positive. In fact, one of them was in a class my very first semester teaching. The guy just would not see reason. Anytime I had the students do group work, he wouldn't get along with anyone because he found it necessary to bring religion into everything, no matter what it was. It escalated one day to the point where I had to remove him from the classroom, and had the department chair actually drop him. People like this don't want compromises, they want it their way. I think the extremists in this case need to find a way to go to a private school, or enroll in a religious university...

Blackocrates
11-25-2008, 06:58 PM
Yeah, thats the truth for sure. I've had 3 encounters with evangelical christians, and none of them were positive. In fact, one of them was in a class my very first semester teaching. The guy just would not see reason. Anytime I had the students do group work, he wouldn't get along with anyone because he found it necessary to bring religioun into everything, no matter what it was. It escalated one day to the point where I had to remove him from the classroom, and had the department chair actually drop him. People like this don't want compromises, they want it their way. I think the extremists in this case need to find a way to go to a private school, or enroll in a religious university...

Yep, they don't let little things like facts get in the way of their arguments. :lol:

emeraldfin
11-26-2008, 02:04 PM
I see your point and I don't mind a compromise but this issue doesn't lend itself to one because of the constitution. Evolution is taught in science class because it's a scientific theory that's been put to test with scientific principles. Religion doesn't belong in public schools because of the separation between it and government. It's unfortunate that it's an us v. them argument but on some issues there can't be a compromise because of the constitution.

I guess if there was to be a compromise it would be along the lines of some sort of history/philosophy class. Dogmatic teaching would have to be banned and it wouldn't resemble what the right winged evangelicals would want. Equal mentioning of other religions would have to be there if not in greater form because of our ignorance on other religions aside from christianity. I'd still be against it though and I'm a christian.

On a slightly side note, it's hard to compromise with the right winged evangelicals because they don't want a compromise. They tend to want all or nothing. They're unreasonable with their attacks calling evolution a religion. Their agenda isn't one of education but of disruption with the wedge doctrine. They offer up no solutions only that religion should be side by side with evolution in a science class room. That's what is mind boggling to me. They want to invade the science classroom. They can't begin to offer one scientific principle about how they would evaluate God but that's not their goal. They don't want to implement a scientific principle with God, they only want to disrupt. This isn't the method of a peaceful, loving group. They're bullies in every since of the word, and they're dangerous.

In a country like America, I think Religious education would be an essential subject for all schools. Reason I think this is because if you start learning about other religions at a young age then kids will become more tolerent of other faiths.

The main reasons for prejudice is mis-understanding and ignorence. When you become more educated, your level of reasoning and understanding becomes greater. You are able to distinguish between the facts and the sterotypes.

Lets not kid ourselves, there are many people out there that have become prejudice against the Muslim faith after 9/11. Yet these are the same people who know very little about the Muslim faith. They buy into the terror generated by the media.

Tetragrammaton
11-26-2008, 02:46 PM
Yeah, thats the truth for sure. I've had 3 encounters with evangelical christians, and none of them were positive. In fact, one of them was in a class my very first semester teaching. The guy just would not see reason. Anytime I had the students do group work, he wouldn't get along with anyone because he found it necessary to bring religion into everything, no matter what it was. It escalated one day to the point where I had to remove him from the classroom, and had the department chair actually drop him. People like this don't want compromises, they want it their way. I think the extremists in this case need to find a way to go to a private school, or enroll in a religious university...

They remind me of a scene in Curb Your Enthusiasm. A Jew is converting to Christianity to get married, and Larry, a Jew, is baffled. "Why do you guys have to recruit everybody? I like lobster, but I don't go around telling everyone that they have to eat lobster."

CedarPhin
11-29-2008, 01:52 AM
They remind me of a scene in Curb Your Enthusiasm. A Jew is converting to Christianity to get married, and Larry, a Jew, is baffled. "Why do you guys have to recruit everybody? I like lobster, but I don't go around telling everyone that they have to eat lobster."

Great episode.

Dolphan7
12-02-2008, 01:11 PM
I see your point and I don't mind a compromise but this issue doesn't lend itself to one because of the constitution. Evolution is taught in science class because it's a scientific theory that's been put to test with scientific principles. Religion doesn't belong in public schools because of the separation between it and government. It's unfortunate that it's an us v. them argument but on some issues there can't be a compromise because of the constitution.

I guess if there was to be a compromise it would be along the lines of some sort of history/philosophy class. Dogmatic teaching would have to be banned and it wouldn't resemble what the right winged evangelicals would want. Equal mentioning of other religions would have to be there if not in greater form because of our ignorance on other religions aside from christianity. I'd still be against it though and I'm a christian.This country never did really have a required course in religion, it was simply part of the culture. Teachers and students brought bibles to school. They spoke openly and freely of their beliefs. It was common, everyone did it. That is what I am referring to. To go back to those days would be nice, but unrealistic in a pluralistic society, of which a small minority seeks to impose it's will on the majority by removing all facets of religion from as many places as they can. It's a shame really. I don't think anyone is promoting schools teach religion as a requirement. It never was that way to begin with.


On a slightly side note, it's hard to compromise with the right winged evangelicals because they don't want a compromise. They tend to want all or nothing. They're unreasonable with their attacks calling evolution a religion. Their agenda isn't one of education but of disruption with the wedge doctrine. They offer up no solutions only that religion should be side by side with evolution in a science class room. That's what is mind boggling to me. They want to invade the science classroom. They can't begin to offer one scientific principle about how they would evaluate God but that's not their goal. They don't want to implement a scientific principle with God, they only want to disrupt. This isn't the method of a peaceful, loving group. They're bullies in every since of the word, and they're dangerous.I am not here to speak for this group of evangelicals you have identified. I am an evangelical, as is any christian according to Matthew 28:19. I don't think anyone wants to insert religion into science, but rather remove all religion from the science class and maybe put them in a Origins class or something like that. That would be a fair compromise. Let the science class be about what we can see and observe and duplicate, not about guess work on our origins. Evolution requires just as much a matter of faith than any religion there is. It simply has not been proven and makes unbelievable claims that it cannot ever hope to prove. Getting a bunch of white coats together and placing their stamp of approval doesn't make something true or factual. Jesus faced this very same type of hypocritical belief system with the pharisees. Evolutionists are no different than the pharisees of Jesus' time.

Dolphan7
12-02-2008, 01:30 PM
I would argue that this isn't necessarily tied to religion, but to lifestyles. As an agnostic, I associate with primarily other agnostics. The people around me are probably some of the most upstanding and moral people you'd ever meet. Lack of religion doesn't make you any more likely to be a deviant. I think we could our blame more on the "gangsta" lifestyle that has been dominating TV. Rappers talk about blatantly disrespecting the law in their lyrics, they get in trouble with the law almost daily, they are all over TV. I can't watch BET or MTV for 10 minutes without seeing some guy with 10 pounds of gold and his pants around his thighs. Kids see this and think this is the "cool" lifestyle, and they try to emulate it. There is A LOT of psychological research that supports this. Would religion help these people? I'm sure it would make a difference. However, quite a few other things could curb this behavior as well, none of which related to religion. I think its just same ends, different means..Everyone in existence thinks that they are moral, or at the very least think that they are more moral than "that guy, or those people". But what is that morality based on? Each individual has their own set of standards of morality, so based on that which one is right? My point is there has to be a standard basis of morality. In this country, that has been the morals outlined in the Holy Bible. This has been, and still is, a predominantly christian nation with it's core values deeply rooted in Christian values.

My point is that when we as a society take that foundational basis of morality out of the public square, out of the mainstream, demonize it....and then replace it with individual morality as is the case in America, you will not get a more moral society. You will get varying viewpoints as to what is right and wrong. Without a standard, there is no standard, and it is whatever you want to believe in if it makes you happy.

Gangsta rap and that whole decrepid lifesyle is only a symptom of the larger problem. When you remove the standard, you will get crap like that. You will get the most unmoralistic movies Hollywood can think up. You will get video games that continue to enforce the desensitization of America toward violence, promiscuity, anti-authority, drugs and alcohol worship, greed, selfishness etc...the list goes on and on. Who is to say it is wrong anymore? Without a standard of right and wrong, you cannot say what is right or wrong.

Dolphan7
12-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Yeah, thats the truth for sure. I've had 3 encounters with evangelical christians, and none of them were positive. In fact, one of them was in a class my very first semester teaching. The guy just would not see reason. Anytime I had the students do group work, he wouldn't get along with anyone because he found it necessary to bring religion into everything, no matter what it was. It escalated one day to the point where I had to remove him from the classroom, and had the department chair actually drop him. People like this don't want compromises, they want it their way. I think the extremists in this case need to find a way to go to a private school, or enroll in a religious university...Well that isn't fair now is it? I could play that game too.

I could say that I have met three people named Locke and all of those were negative experiences, so therefore all persons known as Locke are negative.

It doesn't work that way. For every evangelical (to use your example) you have had a negative experience with, there are 1000 more that are positive, good people, who care about you and our country.

I don't agree with your solution - which is - if you don't agree with me then you need to go to a different school, or go to a different place....basically what you are saying is that if they don't agree with you then remove them. Now.... is that tolerant?

Locke
12-02-2008, 04:10 PM
Well that isn't fair now is it? I could play that game too.

I could say that I have met three people named Locke and all of those were negative experiences, so therefore all persons known as Locke are negative.

It doesn't work that way. For every evangelical (to use your example) you have had a negative experience with, there are 1000 more that are positive, good people, who care about you and our country.

I don't agree with your solution - which is - if you don't agree with me then you need to go to a different school, or go to a different place....basically what you are saying is that if they don't agree with you then remove them. Now.... is that tolerant?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean all evangelical christians should go to a different school, I should have clarified. I meant those that are unable to cooperate in an environment like a classroom, where there are quite a few differing religions/opinions. I would say the exact same thing about someone who has a problem cooperating due his temper, he should be in a program that caters to him.

As far as my negative experiences, I realized after posting that its probably likely that I realized they were evangelic christians because of the conflict. Something like that wouldn't come up during normal interactions with people, meaning its probable I've met quite a few more than I actually realize...

PATSSUCK
12-26-2008, 10:52 PM
As a teacher, I dont want religion in school. I think the founding fathers had it right when they stated that there should be NO established religion, there should be a separation between church and state, and that there should be no religious test in order to be a public official.

Many founding fathers, including Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin were very skeptical of the role of church in the public sector or even in private life.

I love the fact that we, who dont want the bible taught in public school, ARE the ones trying to FORCe our beliefs on people. LMAO Christians are funny people man. Public school should stick to things that have tangible benefits like math, science, etc. We are strethced out enough.

PS: How many times is God mentioned in the constitution?

Gonzo
12-27-2008, 12:55 PM
For the better part of 200 years of our young country we taught about God as if it were a given, that he does indeed exist. We prospered during those times. When we try to take God out of the picture, we see the country we are in today with it's rampant problems due to decreasing morality and increased focus on self and materialism.

I wish I could stay longer and discuss but I am out the door not to return until Sunday.If by "we" you mean rich white men, yes, they did prosper. They also used what they "learned" to justify most of their ills, whether that be slavery, the lack of women's rights, manifest destiny, segregation, etc.

It's always funny to me to see some who despise countries like Iran and organizations like the Taliban, yet want to create a Christian version here.

And which God do we teach about in public schools on that "glorious" day they shred the constitution? You wouldn't mind Catholic would you?

Dolphan7
12-27-2008, 05:52 PM
If by "we" you mean rich white men, yes, they did prosper. They also used what they "learned" to justify most of their ills, whether that be slavery, the lack of women's rights, manifest destiny, segregation, etc. No I mean the country as a whole, in all it's glory and all it's iniquities. It isn't perfect, and from a human rights standpoint it is better today than when we wrote it, but the constitution is probably the best man made government that God would approve of, even knowing that it needed some modifying and fine tuning to get to where we are at. And that is the beauty of the constitution, it allows for that. In a free society God would love the idea of the freedoms we all have, and the concept of having choice to follow Him or not, free will, fits nicely into his game plan.


It's always funny to me to see some who despise countries like Iran and organizations like the Taliban, yet want to create a Christian version here.Won't ever happen. It isn't even the goal. And to equate a christian run country with the evils of the taliban and others like it is really a low blow to christians around the world, and actually a slap in the face of America as it is still by and large a christian country. It is in it's every fiber in many ways. Or at least it has been, times are a changing sadly.


And which God do we teach about in public schools on that "glorious" day they shred the constitution? You wouldn't mind Catholic would you?No one is advocating teaching religion in schools, not as a requirement. Straw man argument. And we are much closer to shredding the constitution by removing and restricting religious freedoms, not promoting them. That is the trend these days. Take religion out of everything. Call it evil. Promote other non-religious beliefs systems over freedom of religion and see what happens.

Dolphan7
12-27-2008, 06:03 PM
As a teacher, I dont want religion in school. I think the founding fathers had it right when they stated that there should be NO established religion, there should be a separation between church and state, and that there should be no religious test in order to be a public official.

Many founding fathers, including Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin were very skeptical of the role of church in the public sector or even in private life.

I love the fact that we, who dont want the bible taught in public school, ARE the ones trying to FORCe our beliefs on people. LMAO Christians are funny people man. Public school should stick to things that have tangible benefits like math, science, etc. We are strethced out enough.

PS: How many times is God mentioned in the constitution?Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't want you or other teachers to teach our kids about a religion that you aren't qualified to teach. That is what churches are for. However it isn't wrong for a teacher to bring a bible to school. It isn't wrong for a group of kids to pray around the flag pole. It isn't wrong for a church to "rent" a school for services on Sundays. It isn't wrong to speak about good morals and values as teachers and as students, no matter if they are from the bible or some other resource.

This idea that there can be no mention or presence of religion in public life is just nonsense. All the while we promote sex education at ever more earlier ages, untrue belief systems, relative morality, alternative lifestyles ...etc......and call that progress or enlightenment, and that is ok. Go figure.

Gonzo
12-27-2008, 07:37 PM
No I mean the country as a whole, in all it's glory and all it's iniquities. It isn't perfect, and from a human rights standpoint it is better today than when we wrote it, but the constitution is probably the best man made government that God would approve of, even knowing that it needed some modifying and fine tuning to get to where we are at. And that is the beauty of the constitution, it allows for that. In a free society God would love the idea of the freedoms we all have, and the concept of having choice to follow Him or not, free will, fits nicely into his game plan.As a whole we did not prosper until we recognized every person's basic human rights, which is the foundation of the Constitution and this country and the ability to fight for those rights. One of the safeguards to those rights is the separation of church and state.

Of course, this is in regards to public schools, whereas this article is about colleges. I went to a "public" university (GO SUN DEVILS :tongue:). I fail to see where God is "shut out" in any way. EVERY day, there were evangelical preachers in the yards practicing their freedom of speech and religion. Often, there were opposing groups depending on the subject. I ate my lunch out there every day just to listen to all of them.

I also took several classes in religious study, some more general, some more acute, such as Women in Judaism. The assigned text: whatever Torah, Bible, or Qur'an you have in your house, if none, she provided random ones). The Bible was a text in the Christian-based courses as well. It wasn't shut out. I was able to CHOOSE to take these classes at a school I CHOSE to attend. You are right in that regard, free will is essential.


Won't ever happen. It isn't even the goal. And to equate a christian run country with the evils of the taliban and others like it is really a low blow to christians around the world, and actually a slap in the face of America as it is still by and large a christian country. It is in it's every fiber in many ways. Or at least it has been, times are a changing sadly.
Such is a theocracy. It inevitably leads to forced religion and a stripping of basic rights. I used an extreme, but I could just as easily have used one of our business par...er, allies, Saudi Arabia. A slap in the face of America? Sorry, Christians do not define America, regardless of their numbers. Freedom and basic human rights define America.A slap in the face of America is assuming Christians have some overriding authority because of their numbers (which is also assuming all Christians are the same). America is a diverse and free country, not a Christian one. Happily, it's becoming more diverse by the day.


No one is advocating teaching religion in schools, not as a requirement. Straw man argument. And we are much closer to shredding the constitution by removing and restricting religious freedoms, not promoting them. That is the trend these days. Take religion out of everything. Call it evil. Promote other non-religious beliefs systems over freedom of religion and see what happens.I never said you demanded it be a requirement. Straw man indeed. "We taught about God as if it were a given." Given this and other comments in this thread, if I'm not mistaken, you are advocating a teacher being able to if one so chooses. Public schools are state institutions. Separation of church and state. As representatives of the state, it is not the teacher's place to teach students what to believe.

And such exaggeration. Why? Because you were told you can't display your ten commandments in a taxpayer-funded building (this is just an example, you haven't said it as far as I know)? Display them in your church, in your lawn, in your place of business, nobody cares because that's your right, your money. A state institution is another matter. Citizens want to know their rights are protected. If I were a Hindu American citizen on trial, I would want to know that my religion isn't going to play a role in my judgment. It would be hard to believe that when I walk past a sign that says not to worship any other God but the Christian (or Jewish) one.

And I haven't seen the "Believe in Evolution" billboards yet (We need to talk.- Darwin). Further, I never heard it taught as anything other than a THEORY in school. Never once did I hear it promoted as fact, especially by our government. (this isn't straw man either, I'm using evolutionary theory as an example of one of your stated "non-religious belief systems").

Dolphan7
12-28-2008, 12:25 AM
As a whole we did not prosper until we recognized every person's basic human rights, which is the foundation of the Constitution and this country and the ability to fight for those rights. One of the safeguards to those rights is the separation of church and state.
The freedoms won for the colonies was indeed the start of freedom for everyone. And we prospered from the very beginning onward. This country has been blessed since it's inception. And I forgot to mention in my earlier post that although we have made some great strides as far as human rights, we also have gone backwards when we allow abortions, murder of innocent citizens of this country. It seems the constitution contradicts itself, are at the very least struggles to define itself in this area - free choice verses freedom of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. When a woman can walk out of a clinic having just had her baby sucked out of her uterus, free as a bird, and then go kill a dog and end up going to Jail for it...there is something fundamentally wrong with this country. Some people call that enlightenment, or progress. I think it is insane.


Of course, this is in regards to public schools, whereas this article is about colleges. I went to a "public" university (GO SUN DEVILS :tongue:). I fail to see where God is "shut out" in any way. EVERY day, there were evangelical preachers in the yards practicing their freedom of speech and religion. Often, there were opposing groups depending on the subject. I ate my lunch out there every day just to listen to all of them. God is being shut out of all walks of life, from saying Happy Holidays in place of Merry Christmas to no use of Schools for Boy Scouts because they mention God to the Ten Commandments being removed from public buildings......and the list goes on and on.



Such is a theocracy. It inevitably leads to forced religion and a stripping of basic rights. I used an extreme, but I could just as easily have used one of our business par...er, allies, Saudi Arabia. A slap in the face of America? Sorry, Christians do not define America, regardless of their numbers. Freedom and basic human rights define America.A slap in the face of America is assuming Christians have some overriding authority because of their numbers (which is also assuming all Christians are the same). America is a diverse and free country, not a Christian one. Happily, it's becoming more diverse by the day.America still is by and large a christian country. That does not give anyone any authority, it simply is an adequate view of most of the people in this country. Christianity and the Constitution have lived side by side for over 200 years quite nicely. There is no harm being done displaying the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. It is a basis of our laws. It is part of our history and our culture. It is no threat. It doesn't mean the government is establishing a religion. It doesn't mean our children will be forced to learn about God Jesus and the bible. It is a classic over-reaction similar to McCarthyism. It is an unfounded fear of religion, or hatred of it, that is driving this trend.

The christian faith by and large promotes good citizenry, helping those who are in need, obeying authority, volunteerism and a dozen or so more great values that add to society and promote freedoms. To characterize it with a oppressive regime like the Taliban is an insult to most if not all Americans.


I never said you demanded it be a requirement. Straw man indeed. "We taught about God as if it were a given." Given this and other comments in this thread, if I'm not mistaken, you are advocating a teacher being able to if one so chooses. Public schools are state institutions. Separation of church and state. As representatives of the state, it is not the teacher's place to teach students what to believe.I don't advocate the teaching of a belief system in public schools as a curriculum. But.....I think it is ok for a teacher to express their faith if it comes up. I think it is ok for a teacher to have a bible on their desk. I think it is ok to talk about their faith. I think it is ok to have a prayer around the flag pole if students and teachers choose to do that. I think a bible club is ok both for students and a teacher who wants to lead it. I think it is ok for churches to rent schools for Sunday services. I think it is ok for the Boy scouts to do whatever they have been doing for a hundred years on public property or private. It isn't an establishment of a religion to allow these things.


And such exaggeration. Why? Because you were told you can't display your ten commandments in a taxpayer-funded building (this is just an example, you haven't said it as far as I know)? Display them in your church, in your lawn, in your place of business, nobody cares because that's your right, your money. A state institution is another matter. Citizens want to know their rights are protected. If I were a Hindu American citizen on trial, I would want to know that my religion isn't going to play a role in my judgment. It would be hard to believe that when I walk past a sign that says not to worship any other God but the Christian (or Jewish) one. Why is it so bad to display the Ten Commandments in a public building? What harm has it done these past 200 plus years? We also have "In God We Trust" on our money. What harm has that caused? We have God in our pledge of allegiance. What harm has that caused? Officials are sworn in on a holy bible, in fact our President Elect will be sworn in on the Lincoln Bible. What harm is it? At what point is that an establishment of a religion? When you testify in a court of law you are sworn in with these words "Do you solemnly swear that what you are about to speak is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God". What harm is that? You can take all these things, these material things away, but when a christian goes into the jury box, they will make decision based on the belief system, just as every single person on the planet does. Everyone has something they believe in. They carry it with them wherever they go. You can't remove that. A Hindu may be concerned, but I bet they feel that they will get the best and fairest trial in the United States as compared to anywhere else in the world. It may have it's detractors, but the American Justice System is still the best in the world. I don't think citing religious sayings and having religious words on the wall will take away from that. Much of it was based on those writings.


And I haven't seen the "Believe in Evolution" billboards yet (We need to talk.- Darwin). Further, I never heard it taught as anything other than a THEORY in school. Never once did I hear it promoted as fact, especially by our government. (this isn't straw man either, I'm using evolutionary theory as an example of one of your stated "non-religious belief systems").Evolution is being taught as fact in science classes across the country. And although it may be stated as a theory, tell that to the millions of kids who walk away from it swearing up and down it is in fact the gospel truth ( no pun intended). Many have proudly stated these "facts" on Finheaven. Try removing the "theory" from those science classes. Try attempting to include alternative theories alongside it. You get this adamant and aggressive fight to keep it the only game in town. It is really sad, because it is a complete lie. It is a forced and required part of the science curriculum, and it is no more than a belief system. Talk about establishment of a religion by the State. There is your perfect example of that happening.

Go Wildcats! :)

PATSSUCK
12-28-2008, 10:44 AM
Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't want you or other teachers to teach our kids about a religion that you aren't qualified to teach. That is what churches are for. However it isn't wrong for a teacher to bring a bible to school. It isn't wrong for a group of kids to pray around the flag pole. It isn't wrong for a church to "rent" a school for services on Sundays. It isn't wrong to speak about good morals and values as teachers and as students, no matter if they are from the bible or some other resource.

This idea that there can be no mention or presence of religion in public life is just nonsense. All the while we promote sex education at ever more earlier ages, untrue belief systems, relative morality, alternative lifestyles ...etc......and call that progress or enlightenment, and that is ok. Go figure.


Hey I am just telling you what the founding fathers , who were deists, thought about the Christian Church. Thomas Jefferson downright loathed it. I ask again where is the mention of God in the constitution?

I agree the church should stick to what it does best: teach the bible. I also think there is such a thing as private schools and Sunday school for those that want to learn the bible. I dont want any funds going into teaching the bible or any other religion in the school system. I believe that would be an unhealthy step in the establishment of a religion.

In conclusion, morality does exist without the bible and without God. This is your crutch arguement and it is very arrogant I am sorry to say. I am not religious and I know right from wrong just fine, so do most people that dont want to be identified with any chruch (16% of Americans)

Absolutely we should be teaching sex education, why is that a problem? Sex education is part of the study of human antatomy and biology. I guess we should let church take care of that to. I have not yet seen a school teach gay sex ed or talk about accepting it, I guess that qualifies as acceptance, because if we go by the bible it would be fine to kill this people. Evolution is an untrue theory to you and the anti-science christian community.

PS - If you are ok with a person bring a bible to school, would you also favor me bring a koran and showing it to the kids?

PATSSUCK
12-28-2008, 10:54 AM
Why is it so bad to display the Ten Commandments in a public building? What harm has it done these past 200 plus years? We also have "In God We Trust" on our money. What harm has that caused? We have God in our pledge of allegiance. What harm has that caused? Officials are sworn in on a holy bible, in fact our President Elect will be sworn in on the Lincoln Bible. What harm is it? At what point is that an establishment of a religion? When you testify in a court of law you are sworn in with these words "Do you solemnly swear that what you are about to speak is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God". What harm is that? You can take all these things, these material things away, but when a christian goes into the jury box, they will make decision based on the belief system, just as every single person on the planet does. Everyone has something they believe in. They carry it with them wherever they go. You can't remove that. A Hindu may be concerned, but I bet they feel that they will get the best and fairest trial in the United States as compared to anywhere else in the world. It may have it's detractors, but the American Justice System is still the best in the world. I don't think citing religious sayings and having religious words on the wall will take away from that. Much of it was based on those writings.

These are rituals more than anything else at this point. If you look at the history of this country in depth, alot of these seemingly religious acts were more PC than acts of true faith. I personally think that the use of the word god in these events does not mean the christian god. I could cite examples like the prayer to open up the constitution convention, but it would take a while and I need to refresh my memory.

The legal system and this government was not based on the teachings of the bible per se, but the study of Locke, Hobbs, Montisque (sp), among others including ancient Athens. Most of these people had very little to say about religion and its immediate role in government. They were more concerned about the relationships between power, order, freedom, etc.

I taught science for 3 years and everyone taught evolution as a theory, we even touched on creationism as a theory.

Ps- If you could talk about being a christian to the kids, can I talk about being an agnostic?

Dolphan7
12-31-2008, 05:34 PM
Hey I am just telling you what the founding fathers , who were deists, thought about the Christian Church. Thomas Jefferson downright loathed it. I ask again where is the mention of God in the constitution?A couple of them were Deists, most were of some branch of Christian faith. Even Thomas Jefferson praised Christianity - Thomas Jefferson...said, "The reason that
Christianity is the best friend of government
is because Christianity is the only religion
that changes the heart."

Here is a very good article explaining our christian roots.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/heritage/heritage19.html

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with your question "Where is God mentioned in the Constitution". No one is arguing that there is any mention of God in the Constitution.




I agree the church should stick to what it does best: teach the bible. I also think there is such a thing as private schools and Sunday school for those that want to learn the bible. I dont want any funds going into teaching the bible or any other religion in the school system. I believe that would be an unhealthy step in the establishment of a religion.Funding that goes toward any religious group, whether that be Christian or Muslim or Hindu, does not qualify as establishing a religion. That is where the fear and hatred of religion crowd really over-exagerate their position. Money has been spent in religious businesses, churches , organizations etc...for centuries. Where is the harm. The good these groups provide should be the focus, not where did the money come from.


In conclusion, morality does exist without the bible and without God. This is your crutch arguement and it is very arrogant I am sorry to say. I am not religious and I know right from wrong just fine, so do most people that dont want to be identified with any chruch (16% of Americans) Certainly one could think up their own set of morals without ever picking up a bible or any other religious writing. That is relative morality. There is no argument that relative morality exists. But there is only one absolute morality and that can only come from God. That is because man cannot create an absolute morality for man. Can't happen. That is subject for a differnt debate, one that has been played out here on Finheaven many times. Suffice it to say that if relative morality exists, and it does, there is no way it has a basis to say what is right or wrong outside it's own membership. You say you are right, I say I am right, who is to say which one is right without a standard from which to compare and evaluate. To further demonstrate - you say the 911 terrorists are wrong, they say they are right. Who is right? Who is wrong? What standard do you appeal to to base it on? See the dilemna?


Absolutely we should be teaching sex education, why is that a problem? Sex education is part of the study of human antatomy and biology. My comment was teaching sex education at younger and younger ages. See comments below.


I guess we should let church take care of that to. I have not yet seen a school teach gay sex ed or talk about accepting it, I guess that qualifies as acceptance, because if we go by the bible it would be fine to kill this people.Ever read about the school in Massachusetts I think that was reading "The Prince and the Prince" to elementary schoolers, 3rd grade I believe. Granted this is an isolated case, but where do we draw the line? Have you read up on the Legislation going on in California where in gay lifestyle is to be promoted and any talk against is to be considered a crime? This is the trend in California I am afraid.


Evolution is an untrue theory to you and the anti-science christian community. Uh Huh. Evolution is not true based on the very science that claims to say that it is true. Give yourself some time to check out this website that specifically (and successfully) challenges evolution taught in schools, and from a purely scientific basis, no religion here. Check out the 75 Thesis.

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/


PS - If you are ok with a person bring a bible to school, would you also favor me bring a koran and showing it to the kids?I think it is ok, I really do. I think if given the opportunity to talk about ones faith, they should be able to do that. Even you do that. I am sure your students know that you are an Agnostic, or an Atheist (not sure exactly). You send out those signals in the way you explain things, the comments you make on certain subjects or current events. We all do it. It may be subtle, but it happens. The issue isn't if one should be able to do it, but they shouldn't be punished and thought of as evil and it shouldn't be looked at as a government establishment of religion. That is the point.

Dolphan7
12-31-2008, 07:30 PM
These are rituals more than anything else at this point. If you look at the history of this country in depth, alot of these seemingly religious acts were more PC than acts of true faith. I personally think that the use of the word god in these events does not mean the christian god. I could cite examples like the prayer to open up the constitution convention, but it would take a while and I need to refresh my memory.True, it is more of a tradition these days than anything, but it still points to how Christian our founders were, and how much christianity is ingrained into our culture. We even have a Federal Holiday commemorating Jesus Christ's Birthday, yet we still have no establishment of a religion. No harm no foul.

And what God do you think they were talking about? Certainly not the Muslim God? The Hindu Gods? Greek mythology? Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, Wican....all not even invented yet, or re-invented. No it most definitely was the Christian God they were referring to in the Declaration of Independence. It is the Christian God that they refer to in their letters and correspondence. It is the very Christian bible they quote from.


The legal system and this government was not based on the teachings of the bible per se, but the study of Locke, Hobbs, Montisque (sp), among others including ancient Athens. Most of these people had very little to say about religion and its immediate role in government. They were more concerned about the relationships between power, order, freedom, etc.
No doubt there were many influences to our form of constitutional government, but the main theme of the relationship between God and creation of said government was the God given freedoms that we all have and deserve and thus need protecting. Here is the first part of the D of I:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I taught science for 3 years and everyone taught evolution as a theory, we even touched on creationism as a theory.
That's awesome. And there should be nothing wrong with teaching Creationism as a theory. Let the kids figure out which one holds the water, and which one leaks like a siv.

Ps- If you could talk about being a christian to the kids, can I talk about being an agnostic?You probably already do.

PATSSUCK
12-31-2008, 08:05 PM
True, it is more of a tradition these days than anything, but it still points to how Christian our founders were, and how much christianity is ingrained into our culture. We even have a Federal Holiday commemorating Jesus Christ's Birthday, yet we still have no establishment of a religion. No harm no foul.

And what God do you think they were talking about? Certainly not the Muslim God? The Hindu Gods? Greek mythology? Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, Wican....all not even invented yet, or re-invented. No it most definitely was the Christian God they were referring to in the Declaration of Independence. It is the Christian God that they refer to in their letters and correspondence. It is the very Christian bible they quote from.

No doubt there were many influences to our form of constitutional government, but the main theme of the relationship between God and creation of said government was the God given freedoms that we all have and deserve and thus need protecting. Here is the first part of the D of I:
That's awesome. And there should be nothing wrong with teaching Creationism as a theory. Let the kids figure out which one holds the water, and which one leaks like a siv.


Yea in the first part of the declaration, it does talk about god, but why is the word NATURE put in front of it? Because it is talking about god not as the christian god, but as any god that people what to make it out to be. Even when he says "creator", he is naming the Christian God by name.
You probably already do.


lthough Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

Quotes from Jefferson about religion:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Dolphan7
01-01-2009, 03:10 PM
Yea in the first part of the declaration, it does talk about god, but why is the word NATURE put in front of it? Because it is talking about god not as the christian god, but as any god that people what to make it out to be. Even when he says "creator", he is naming the Christian God by name.
You probably already do.


lthough Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

Quotes from Jefferson about religion:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814No doubt Jefferson has his issues with Christianity. But I wouldn't consider it loathing, more like he thought he knew better, writing "his" version of the bible. Kind of arrogant. In that regard he is no different than the Jehovah Witness Watchtower Society's re-write of the bible. He had a very mixed bag when it came to Christianity - praising it one day, criticizing it the next. But he was one of the most influential figures in our nations founding, thus we get phrases like Nature's God in place of just simply God. But this is just one man, not all our founders thought like him. As I have already pointed out the vast majority were Christians and all of them pointed to our God given rights, which was the whole point, no matter if they thought that God was the Christian God, Nature's God, or any other God. Jefferson definitely had his quirky views, but they didn't outlive the long Christian tradition in America that history records for us.

SpurzN703
01-17-2009, 12:55 PM
:lol:

I don't know what to think about that. We all believe in crazy stuff. I've always found it weird that christians criticize others for believing in weird things when they themselves believe in something that's not reasonable (self included).

I personally wish everything were true. I wish there were monsters, aliens, bigfoot, ghosts, Superman, etc. We'd really have something to talk about then. Could you imagine how odd it would be to have to stock up on garlic, silver bullets, holy water, etc.

It would beg the question would you rather become a vampire and live forever on earth? Or would you rather take your chances and die then spend eternity in heaven or hell?

If I was a day-walker that would live forever, I might take that chance. If I was guaranteed heaven existed and that I'd go there after death, I might take that chance too.

Neither are possible though so I guess I'm screwed

Jimi
01-17-2009, 09:02 PM
There were religion electives offered at my high school all four years i attended.