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Muck
10-02-2003, 12:32 AM
Yup, you heard right. Rush called it quits tonight from NFL Countdown.

LINK (http://www.msnbc.com/news/974428.asp?0cm=c30&cp1=1)

1972
10-02-2003, 12:35 AM
I guess Al Franken was right. Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." - except he's not that fat anymore - I guess that makes him just a "big idiot."

Muck
10-02-2003, 12:58 AM
Al Franken and Bill O'Reilly duking it out was pretty awesome.

ohall
10-02-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by 1972
I guess Al Franken was right. Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." - except he's not that fat anymore - I guess that makes him just a "big idiot."

Franken would know in SPADES.

Oliver...

Coral Reefer
10-02-2003, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Muck
Yup, you heard right. Rush called it quits tonight from NFL Countdown.

LINK (http://www.msnbc.com/news/974428.asp?0cm=c30&cp1=1)

Just glad to see that windbag show his true idiot colors.... on national TV no less! Idiot!
Way to stick your own foot right up your own arse Rush!

Bumrush
10-02-2003, 08:30 AM
That was an idiotic comment. Rush likes to politicize everything but this was way over the line. He has no business making QB play a race issue. He did an effective job portraying himself as race neutral, but he showed his true colors with that statement

Muck
10-02-2003, 09:08 AM
Now Rush is being investigated in an illegal drug probe.

http://www.nydailynews.com/10-02-2003/front/story/122839p-110349c.html

Bumrush
10-02-2003, 10:08 AM
LOL, I thought Rush was perfect and never wrong!!!
The liberals must be salivating at the opportunity to smear and bring Rush down. You can not underestimate the value he brings to the Republican Party- Rush was a major factor in the congressional takeover of 1994 and for many is the voice of the party. However, this type of gaffe can really delegitimize what he says and can have a lasting effect on how he is perceived.

DrAstroZoom
10-02-2003, 10:11 AM
In my opinion, Rush took two statememnts I pretty much agree with and made a ludicrous link between them.

Donovan McNabb is overrated. Well, yes he is. His QB rating for his career QB rating is 77.5. Yes, he can beat you with his feet, but he doesn't consistently BEAT teams with his individual performance.

The NFL and the media have a vested interest in seeing black players do well. This has been a sensitive issue for the NFL, and as the NFL prospers, so does the media covering it. In an era where the league is being as proactive as possible to level the playing field and promote equality in racial perceptions, yes, it is good for America to see black quarterbacks succeed.

But, to link say #1 is true because of #2 is ridiculous for four reasons. Steve McNair, Daunte Culpepper, Michael Vick and Aaron Brooks. This quartet of highly successful, highly marketable quarterbacks puts the NFL miles away from desperation when it comes to celebrating the accomplishments of high-profile African-American players.

Is Donovan McNabb overrated? I think so. Is it because the NFL or the media need him to succeed? Absolutely not.

ZOD
10-02-2003, 10:31 AM
DR,

Since you believe in the two statements, is it wrong for a man to have the OPINION that the two are related?

He was hired to give an opinion "from a fan's perspective". Never did ESPN tout him as a football expert.

I knew it was a matter of time before his termination. Corporate America (Disney) has no spine.

Perhaps it was best summed up yesterday (prior to resignation) by Pro Football talk. (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

IS THE RUSH TO MONDAY NIGHT DERAILED?

As we surmised when El Rushbo was hired by ESPN to help prop up its ho-hum Sunday NFL Countdown program, the deeper motivation here by the Disney crowd was to give Limbaugh some real NFL credentials before dropping him into the ABC Monday Night Football booth when John Madden retires (or when his heart explodes like a blooming onion stuffed with garlic gunpowder).

On the surface, the furor that Rush caused with his recent comments as to Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb is, in our view, another step in the grooming process for the guy who could be destined to bring back to the chronically bland MNF broadcast the same kind of water cooler buzz that propelled it to success in the 1970s, when Howard Cosell and Don Meredith spiced things up on a weekly basis.

But the real question now seems to be whether Rush's efforts to be controversial for the sake of ratings and/or self-aggrandizement eventually will create too much heartburn for the folks who make the staffing decisions for the biggest stage in sports.

If Limbaugh continues to spout off with inane observations such as the perception of Donovan McNabb's abilities being fueled by a media desire to see black quarterbacks succeed, he'll likely never make it into the spot that a string of foofs unsuccessfully have been keeping lukewarm for the second coming of Cosell.

Actually, Limbaugh's biggest gaffe in four weeks on the job with ESPN might already have sealed his fate. With his views on McNabb more befitting the nickname "El Rushbozo," Limbaugh is on the receiving end of constant criticism, with the most recent barbs coming from former NFL quarterback and current Grambling coach Doug Williams.

More importantly, guys like Williams already are calling out ESPN for giving Rush a platform for his not-so-thinly-veiled right-wing beliefs on matters such as affirmative action and media bias.

"You've got to chalk it up to the people who hire Rush," Williams said. "Look at it realistically. They knew what they were hiring. You can paint a zebra, but it's still a zebra. That was an awful thing he said."

The folks at ESPN already are making excuses for Limbaugh, and as we see it the question ultimately will be whether the headaches he creates will be offset by the buzz he generates. If ESPN's pregame show doesn't see dramatic improvement with Rush on the set, the honchos at ABC won't risk making a high-maintenance, low-return move of Limbaugh to the Monday Night gig.

This dynamic says much about the dilemma in which MNF now finds itself. The fact that the entire production is scrutinized so obsessively by the media has created, in essence, a barrier for anyone who would be as outspoken and controversial as Cosell once was. The attention that the show receives likewise prevents ABC from giving the job to an unknown loudmouth in the hopes of developing the next Howard on the job.

And they'll likely never find a "tell it like it is" figure from the ranks of former players and coaches, because they simply don't want to burn bridges -- and because the handful who are willing to nuke their NFL brethren typically come off as kooks.

With all that said, we're not ruling out the possibility that Rush will be the guy. But if ABC wants to make it happen, they'll need to rein him in quickly.

Our guess is that, even with a sock in his mouth and/or a foot in his ***, Rush will still find a way to piss too many people off for his own good.

DrAstroZoom
10-02-2003, 10:45 AM
Great read, Zod.

Don't get me wrong ... I don't think he should have been forced to resign. He was hired to give controversial opinions, and that's just what he did.

I don't think his remarks showed a grievous racial insensitivity, just some really bad logic. Of course, I could fill a whole column with our current state of pathetic political correctness, but this isn't the time or place.

ZOD
10-02-2003, 10:48 AM
After reading that article you should realize that even Howard Cosell wouldn't have a job in today's Politically Correct world.

"Animated" commentators are a thing of the past unless you consider "BACK, BACK, BACK!!" or "BOOYAH" to be some of the more profound statements ever made.


What a sad climate.




NAACP asks for an opposing view....

Were the two black men (Irvin and Jackson) on stage vehemently disagreeing not enough?

fairbanksb
10-02-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by DrAstroZoom
In my opinion, Rush took two statememnts I pretty much agree with and made a ludicrous link between them.

Donovan McNabb is overrated. Well, yes he is. His QB rating for his career QB rating is 77.5. Yes, he can beat you with his feet, but he doesn't consistently BEAT teams with his individual performance.

The NFL and the media have a vested interest in seeing black players do well. This has been a sensitive issue for the NFL, and as the NFL prospers, so does the media covering it. In an era where the league is being as proactive as possible to level the playing field and promote equality in racial perceptions, yes, it is good for America to see black quarterbacks succeed.

But, to link say #1 is true because of #2 is ridiculous for four reasons. Steve McNair, Daunte Culpepper, Michael Vick and Aaron Brooks. This quartet of highly successful, highly marketable quarterbacks puts the NFL miles away from desperation when it comes to celebrating the accomplishments of high-profile African-American players.

Is Donovan McNabb overrated? I think so. Is it because the NFL or the media need him to succeed? Absolutely not.


What reason could there be for the positive press that McNabb has received? The media makes him sound like superman, when he is an average quarterback. Limbaugh didn't say he wasn't good enough to play in the NFL. All he said was that the media has given him more coverage than he deserves. I think Kordell Stewart got a lot of positve press also, and I think he stinks at the quarterback position.

DrAstroZoom
10-02-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by ZOD
After reading that article you should realize that even Howard Cosell wouldn't have a job in today's Politically Correct world.

"Animated" commentators are a thing of the past unless you consider "BACK, BACK, BACK!!" or "BOOYAH" to be some of the more profound statements ever made.


What a sad climate.

In fact, Cosell DID lose his job because of the application of very primitive policital correctness. Remember the Alving Garrett "Look at that monkey go!" call? We later found out "little monkey" is what he used to call his grandkids (who were, as you might have guessed, white).

Sad indeed.

Penthos
10-02-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by fairbanksb

Limbaugh didn't say he wasn't good enough to play in the NFL. All he said was that the media has given him more coverage than he deserves.

Maybe he should have left it at that. BUT NO, he HAD to politicize it and take the opportunity attack the media for what is in his opinion racial bias... He already made the country think the media is all completely liberal, now he espouces that media is racially biased.

Funny how this guy hates the media so much considering without the media no one would know who he is... Without the media he wouldn't have enough money to send his housekeeper out on the streets to buy all those "Hillbilly Herion" (Oxycotin) pills.

fairbanksb
10-02-2003, 12:50 PM
This whole argument has nothing at all to do with football. It is politics at it's worst. It is a smear campaign by the left, this time. I say this time because both political parties do it. Why were Rush's comments overlooked on Sunday night, and Monday, and Tuesday? All of a sudden Wednesday, there is the beginnings of an uproar. Thursday all of a sudden Rush is under investigation for drug abuse.
Bush Whitehouse leaks CIA agents name. The article naming this CIA agent, was published on July 22. Why does S#$t hit the fan at the end of September?
One week before the California recall election. Six women accuse Arnold of groping them.
I hate this crap......................

Bumrush
10-02-2003, 01:08 PM
At least you qualified those statements by saying both parties do it.

But do not make excuses for the stupidity of his comments. He was trying to cause an uproar and knew exactly what he was saying.

You are correct, it is politics at its worse. Rush Limbaugh used his political beliefs to smear and demean a football player. It makes no logical sense for him to make comments like that, even if most people agree with them. ESPN is a sports channel, not an extension of his radio show.

Coral Reefer
10-02-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Bumrush
At least you qualified those statements by saying both parties do it.

But do not make excuses for the stupidity of his comments. He was trying to cause an uproar and knew exactly what he was saying.

You are correct, it is politics at its worse. Rush Limbaugh used his political beliefs to smear and demean a football player. It makes no logical sense for him to make comments like that, even if most people agree with them. ESPN is a sports channel, not an extension of his radio show.

It was rediculous for ESPN to even bring this idiot into the fold.
They had to know... they had to know... that this guy would take any chance he could to further his blindingly one sided political propaganda during football telecasts. Funny how he may have destroyed a lot of his following by making an ill advised remark. STUPID move by ESPN to begin with though IMO.

DPlus47
10-02-2003, 01:57 PM
i knew he couldn't resist bringing politics into it, and it happened sooner rather than later. he is constantly trying to point out that the media are liberal (how it benefits corporations in the defense contracting industry to be liberal has yet to be explained to me) and that there is some liberal conspiracy to destroy white america. throughout this country's history racial divisiveness has been a key factor in preserving power for those who hold it.

as for mcnabb, i realize the defense carried the team, but look around the guy on offense. who is there to help? thrash and pinkston are glorified special teams players. on offense, the guy is a one man show and i don't think he can be overrated. that's why i found it odd that steve young piled on, the same steve young who had some serious players around him. ricky watters vs. duce staley? jerry rice vs. pinkston/thrash? come on... get the guy somebody who can make a play.

TerryTate
10-02-2003, 02:02 PM
Rush Limbaugh is truly an idiot, and this doesnt surprise me at all...the man has no right to be commenting on football, and referring to Michael Irvin and Tom Jackson when he made those remarks, Tom tended to bypass the racial aspect of that and go after his remarks on McNabb being overrated, and if you noticed, Michael Irvin did not say a word, usually he is animated....that tells you something right there....

he is a classless idiot, and now a hypocrite, as he is a drug addict apparently.....way to go Rush, moron...

DrAstroZoom
10-02-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Bumrush
It makes no logical sense for him to make comments like that, even if most people agree with them. ESPN is a sports channel, not an extension of his radio show.

If most people agree with an opinion, even if it's wrong --- heck, especially if it's wrong, then it needs to be discussed.

DPlus47
10-02-2003, 02:18 PM
i don't think most people agree with what limbaugh said in this case. why is steve mcnair underrated? where's the love for jeff blake? did the media will doug williams' team to win the super bowl all those years ago?

DrAstroZoom
10-02-2003, 02:24 PM
Oh, I don't agree with Rush's comments on McNabb. I think McNabb's overrated, but not because of race. I just take exception to the hypothetical idea Bumrush presented that even if a belief is commonly held, it should be kept quiet for fear of "insensitivity."

By the way ... a racist viewpoint is defined as one which demonstrates "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."

Rush's comment, while easily refutable as faulty logical, is by no means racist.

Coral Reefer
10-02-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by DrAstroZoom


Rush's comment, while easily refutable as faulty logical, is by no means racist.

No it wasn't racist. He said nothing at all against African Americans. However, anyone with half a brain knows that ANYTHING said that refers to African Americans in any way but 100% positive IS ALWAYS twisted around to be racist comments. Organizations like the NAACP and the media jump on them immediately to keep the racism card highlighted in the US.
One of this country's biggest problems is the radical political correctness that holds us hostage now.

Either Rush is a bigger moron than I already thought or he knew what he was doing and wanted this reaction. Either way, I'd like to thank Mr. Limbozo for allowing me to have to hear another 6 months of discrimination rhetoric, the necesity of affrimative action rhetoric, etc. just because one dumbarse made a stupid comment.

DrAstroZoom
10-02-2003, 03:27 PM
Yes. It's unfortunate that those in protest haven't just refuted his argument rather than attacking him as racist. The first option would improve relations by showing how far we truly have come; the latter just hardens the ignorant opinions of those who propagate racism.

baracuda
10-02-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by 13isgr81


Maybe he should have left it at that. BUT NO, he HAD to politicize it and take the opportunity attack the media for what is in his opinion racial bias... He already made the country think the media is all completely liberal, now he espouces that media is racially biased.

Funny how this guy hates the media so much considering without the media no one would know who he is... Without the media he wouldn't have enough money to send his housekeeper out on the streets to buy all those "Hillbilly Herion" (Oxycotin) pills.
Typical liberal response.

Try www.newsmax.com sometime for the real truth in media.

Coral Reefer
10-02-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by baracuda


Try www.newsmax.com sometime for the real truth in media.

Truth or bias? I have never seen the site but I'll check it out.
Usually when someone posts a media site that "speaks the truth" it is just another propaganda machine like Limbaugh.
Whether it be 100% Liberal or 100% conservative. Either way it's wrong. You can't be 100% on one side or the other. It's impossible. Any outlets that take their sides argument without questioning is rediculous and has no credibility. That's why I hate Limbozo.

I don't think there is any media outlet that just outlines the truth without bias.

fairbanksb
10-02-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Trekbiz


No it wasn't racist. He said nothing at all against African Americans. However, anyone with half a brain knows that ANYTHING said that refers to African Americans in any way but 100% positive IS ALWAYS twisted around to be racist comments. Organizations like the NAACP and the media jump on them immediately to keep the racism card highlighted in the US.
One of this country's biggest problems is the radical political correctness that holds us hostage now.

Either Rush is a bigger moron than I already thought or he knew what he was doing and wanted this reaction. Either way, I'd like to thank Mr. Limbozo for allowing me to have to hear another 6 months of discrimination rhetoric, the necesity of affrimative action rhetoric, etc. just because one dumbarse made a stupid comment.

Wow trek, you are good. Philly owner accuses ESPN of institutional racism, for TV show Playmakers.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/football/6916872.htm

Coral Reefer
10-02-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by fairbanksb


Wow trek, you are good. Philly owner accuses ESPN of institutional racism, for TV show Playmakers.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/football/6916872.htm

Don't know where you are going with your comment.....

If you are saying Rush Limbaugh was an idiot for his remarks. I agree completely and have already stated that.

If you are against the viewpoint in the article and the belief that the series Playmaker is an example of a racist show then I agree with you. If you agree with their viewpoint then I don't.

The claim that the Playmaker show on ESPN is racist is a complete a joke!

It's not OK to show an african american football player snorting cocaine at halftime in that show?

That constitutes racism?

Is it racism to Italians to show the Sopranos selling drugs and killing people. Is that show a secret plot by the media to bring down Italian people?

Is it racism to show rich white people on Melrose place snorting coke, stealing millions in money scandals and women sleeping with anything that walks. Is that a secret plot to put down the affluent white.

Is it racism towards white people to show two african american cops in Bad Boys 2 busting up illiterate country bumpkin whites in a clan rally?

Was it racism towards Hispanics to show the drug kingpin in Bad Boys 2 as a Cuban?

Is it racism to have a movie titled White Men Can't Jump?
There was no uproar about the political incorrectness of that was there?
How about a movie called Black Men Can't Read?
Would that make racism headlines for months if someone produced that?

No, none of the above is racist. It's drama. To have drama you have to have a bad guy. You take examples out of everyday life and put it onto the screen.

Are there illiterate white and black people in the world? Yes.

Are there football players who take drugs? White or black?
Yes, Duh! see Lawrence Taylor and Brett Favre!

Are there some Italians that are in the Mafia? Yes

Are there some Hispanic, white, black, chinese, etc. drug dealers in the world? Yes

Is it a blanket racist statement about a whole group of people to portray someone on a TV show as a villain?
If so, entertainment media is racist against every single group of people in the world.

So before people start following like a sheep that everyone is against African Americans because of the way they are portrayed in the media.... answer the questions above for me.

The fact is that certain african american advancement groups jump on every comment made about african americans. No other groups do. Believe what you want but again explain to me the difference of the Playmaker show's portrayal of an African American football player snorting drugs and any of the other shows I mentioned showing other cultures entrenched in bad behavior!

DrAstroZoom
10-02-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Trekbiz


Don't know where you are going with your comment.....


The poster was agreeing with you!

Coral Reefer
10-02-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by DrAstroZoom


The poster was agreeing with you!

Oh..... guess I didn'nt have to go through that whole routine then.

:foundout:


I hate that ESPN even caused us to be discussing this on a football board. Just wrong.

DPlus47
10-02-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Trekbiz


I hate that ESPN even caused us to be discussing this on a football board. Just wrong.

yeah, that's what happens when you hire somebody who has nothing to do with football to talk about football. personal biases and opinions are okay, but they have to be related to football to belong anywhere near that countdown show. football is supposed to be a diversion from the problems of the larger world, and sunday countdown is not a forum for airing opinions on what those problems are.

fairbanksb
10-02-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Trekbiz


Oh..... guess I didn'nt have to go through that whole routine then.

:foundout:


I hate that ESPN even caused us to be discussing this on a football board. Just wrong.


Yeah Chill!! I was agreeing. The reason I posted the link about Playmakers was because you thanked Limbozo for making you put up with 6 mos. of talking about this stuff. Well it has already started to snowball. By the way I don't think what Limbaugh said was racist. It was his opinion on the media, you can agree or disagree, but it didn't belong on a sports show. I wish he would have just given his views of McNabb as a quarterback, and left it at that.

Barbarian
10-03-2003, 01:58 AM
Should Rush have lost his job because of this supposed "racist" statement?

Nah.

He should have lost his job because it has become increasingly obvious that the guy hasn't watched a football game in 15 years. Wether you agree with his politics or not, when it comes to football, the guy is a clueless douchebag and should have never been placed on ESPN.

Loburian
10-03-2003, 08:23 AM
http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/

This link to slate says what i feel.

Loburian

ZOD
10-03-2003, 08:38 AM
The simple fact remains (unless Dr. was wrong) that Donovan Mcnabb has a 77.8 career passer rating. In a climate where everything seems to be judged by the final number, is it not prudent to question why that QB received a 100 million dollar salary.

Jay Fiedler plays for peanuts compared to this guy and has a better winning percentage and career passer rating.

Could Rush not be searching for the reason why?

Donovan said, "I thought we were past this."

No, we have not been past anything.

We get spoon fed the question every year. "In a league where so many of the players are minority, why is that position still withheld from the minority?" That's the question that would have been asked in week 7 or 8 or 9 this year on "Outside the Lines" or some similar "special". On that show prominant black politicians and prominant black quarterbacks (past or present) will state or imply that prejudice is involved.

So when is it over Donovan? Is it when the black athlete says so?

Who is playing the race card?

His comments were not racist. I recollect athletes and politicians pondering the QB issue and saying it needed to be addressed.

It seems the only problem with addressing the issue is when you say that you think a person has benefited from the debate.

People want the benefit ofracial preference. They just don't want to say they benefitted from it.

You don't think so? Just keep the Detroit Lions and Steve Mariucci in mind.

DrAstroZoom
10-03-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Loburian
http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/

This link to slate says what i feel.

Loburian

Wow. Great read!

fairbanksb
10-03-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by DrAstroZoom


Wow. Great read!


Oh my God, I'm stunned to my core!!!! This was a great read and if ESPN would have given more than 30 seconds for Rush to expound on his statement, maybe this so-called controversy wouldn't have happened in the first place. What I'm stunned about however, is that this article was found in Slate. Oh MY GOD!

M-REAL
10-03-2003, 01:10 PM
Very interesting link and thanks! I don't want to offend anyone here cause I'm not racist(I hate everyone equally, j.k.) but seriously, Rush really provided a way for the NAACP to start running their mouths again over a biased opinion. Why should Rush have to resign over what he said? Are Americans not allowed to voice their opinions and views on TV anymore, only on radio? This is total BS! Race, race, race! Seriously this sh** is getting very old and it will never stop, only continue to the end of days.

1972
10-03-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Loburian
http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/

This link to slate says what i feel.

Loburian

Nice article. I thought the most interesting part was comparing McNabb to Brad Johnson:

"Let's look at a quarterback with similar numbers who also plays for a team with a great defense. I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson one of the best quarterbacks in pro football—which is how McNabb is often referred to. In fact, I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson, on the evidence of his 10-year NFL career, much more than mediocre. Yet, Johnson's NFL career passer rating, as of last Sunday, is 7.3 points higher than McNabb's (84.8 to 77.5), he has completed his passes at a higher rate (61.8 percent to 56.4 percent), and has averaged significantly more yards per pass (6.84 to 5.91). McNabb excels in just one area, running, where he has gained 2,040 yards and scored 14 touchdowns to Johnson's 467 and seven. But McNabb has also been sacked more frequently than Johnson—more than once, on average, per game, which negates much of the rushing advantage."

If BumRush would have backed up his statement with those facts, maybe he wouldn't have got b!tchslapped so hard by everyone.

TexPhinPhan
10-03-2003, 05:59 PM
Be careful of stats. I do not want to get into bashing Brad Johnson, a player I like. Rather look at the years played and what happened in each year. Mcnabb's rookie year his QBR was 60%. The next 3 years, 77, 84, 86. This year, a dismal 51% after 3 games.

Look at Brad's numbers in an 11 year career. First 2 years QBR 68%. (only playing in 4 -5 games) Next year 12 games QB rating 89. From there his rating reaches a high of 92 and a low of 72.

You drop out the rookie season and the incomplete present year, the numbers are not so skewed. Will McNabb have a career as long and consistently good as Johnsons? Don't know, but the comparison based upon these stats are not very accurate.

A better question is who would rather have as your starting QB?

Barbarian
10-03-2003, 10:33 PM
I didn't read the site (the link isn't working for me) but did they bring up the slight little difference in rushing between BJ and McNabb?

McNabb's ability to kill you with his legs while being moderately effective with his arm has been his main selling point and what everybody fears about McNabb.

I recall when he strung together a few good passing games people started to freak because "if he could get his arm as good as his legs he'd be frightening" it was true then and it's true now, I have yet to see anybody (not even the most biased eagles fans) call McNabb a great passer, so why would you use that part of his game by itself to grade him (unless the rest of the argument was a bit weak and one needed to slant the numbers to make it look better)

ZOD
10-04-2003, 07:05 AM
Barbarian,

The author did bring it up.

You really need to read the article. It just plainly states the debate at hand which is/was that the media has overrated McNabb with a desirous for a black QB to do well. The article even included a description of this desire to be similar to wanting Jackie Robinson to do well in baseball.



BTW......

You can hear Rush describe the ending of his employ at ESPN including the discomfort of the co-hosts here. (http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wma/rushlimb.download.akamai.com/5020/clips/03/10/100303_5_espnIII.asx)

Barbarian
10-04-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by ZOD
Barbarian,

The author did bring it up.

You really need to read the article. It just plainly states the debate at hand which is/was that the media has overrated McNabb with a desirous for a black QB to do well. The article even included a description of this desire to be similar to wanting Jackie Robinson to do well in baseball.

I finally read it on another site, (damn link still wont work for me... WTF?)

And I still say the author is smoking something.

McNabbs running ability more than makes up for the difference in arms between Johnson and McNabb, and I stand behind all the points I made previously.

As for the media, there is absolutely no incentive at all for the media to try and promote a black QB to do well now. There is a huge gargantualn difference between the McNabb situation and Jackie Robinson, as I posted in another thread, Black QB's have allready broken through, we have had a black QB win a super bowl, a black QB nearly lead his team to a title (McNair), there is no need for the media to try and push something that has allready shown success. Robinson was the first, and the desire to see him do well was due to that fact, especially considering the racial overtones of that era. There is absolutely Zero commonality between Robinsons and McNabbs situations.

If Rush had said this about a black QB 15 years ago, he might be onto something, but now it's just pathetic rediculous drivel coming from a pathetic rediculous man.

ZOD
10-04-2003, 12:21 PM
You are losing me here.

Are you saying that there is no desire in the media for the QB position to be more representative of the league (as a whole)?

I think the league is 70 percent black now.

Are you telling me that the media has been satisfied with 5 present QB's and 1 super bowl ring as the ratio? I would have to disagree and cite the "outside the lines" show on the topic last year that would dispute that the desire is actually "over".

The "desire" still remains for the QB position to be more proportional with that of the population of the league. It's just no longer an "insatiable" desire because it has been attained and held onto by a few.

Presently the "insatiable" desire is reserved for the head coach position.

You cannot do this now with the QB issue because all you will come up with is the Rush Limbaugh diatribe but check this out.

Click here. (http://www.google.com/search?q=black+coach+hiring&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

Do you see all of the "mainstream media" that has a story in that google search? Do you or anybody but racists not wish for present Black Coaches to do well?

I'll take it a little further......

Do you not suspect that the firings of Ray Rhodes, Tony Dungy, and Dennis Green had SOMETHING to do with race? Do you not scoff at the notion of Notre Dame not hiring Tyrone Willingham the first time around?

The topic of race in sports is alive and well. As a matter of fact it is the minority that will not let it be "over" as Donovan said.

And on that note you tend to get the general idea of what was "wrong" in what Rush Limbaugh said.

Rush Limbaugh is a white man.

TexPhinPhan
10-04-2003, 01:50 PM
Not sure if I understand your point here. Is it that mainstream media is a shill for minorities who move from cause to cause?

As you point out in your post, the only media type making any noise about black qb's is Rush. The outside the lines program raised the issue of why not the same proportionate amount of black qb's in the league. That is a statistaclly valid point. BUT that seems to defeat Rush's point about the uneven coverage on McNabb because he is black. Where is it? As stated in another thread, is Kordell getting alot of love in Pitt or Chicago? Until this week, how about Carter in Dallas? Surely based upon this statistical anommolly, the "liberal media" would be all over these guys. Rush has never been one to let facts get in the way of a good slam of the media or perceived liberals.

Is there a lot of press about black coaches? Of course there is. Does that mean the mainstream media treats black coaches better? I don't know, show me where. Ask Rhodes, and Dungy how they felt that they were getting preferential treatment.

Loburian
10-04-2003, 02:18 PM
My whole point of it is:

Rush is not a racist at all. If he was black and said what he did no one would care.

TexPhinPhan
10-04-2003, 03:01 PM
Oh I think Rush is a race baiter. Is he a dyed in the wool, I hate n .....ger, racist. Probably not, I really do not know. But all you have to do is listen to his program to know that he is almost -as blatant as Father Coughlin when it comes to using race to rile up his listeners.

Thats why I think ESPN is to blame here. Rush did what he does. I just do not want that whenI am watching football. That is what a.m. radio is for.

ZOD
10-04-2003, 04:25 PM
I've listened to Rush "on and off" since 1988. Mostly "on" in the years prior to the 1992 election. I disagree with his thoughts about "open markets" and a few other topics. I have never known him to not say something that he does not mean. He is not a race baiter and he does not say things to get the audience "riled up". He is perhaps one of the last men on earth to stand on his own principles and not deter. Principle is one area where I find myself lacking in the economic realm (I'm a union man) and it is one reason why he will defeat most if not all in open debate on most of his statements.

To quote "Meet me in the arena of ideas".

Is there something wrong with that?

You don't have to "read into" his statement.

Read HIS statement. Could it be anymore clear?

The man did not say that Donovan Mcnabb sucked as a QB. He said that HE THOUGHT Donovan Mcnabb was overrated. Overrated is defined as "to have too high an opinion of" in my Oxford American Dictionary. Nowhere in my dictionary does overrated equate to a "terrible" performance.

I will leave out the "offensive part" here and come back to it.....

Rush continued-

"There's a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

Comparing him to the QB's that we bash here continually (Brady, Testeverde, Fiedler, and Bledsoe) and then surveying the total defense rankings of the Eagles in their championship runs does the above statement look false? Note: just read the above statement and consider the 100 million dollar contract recently signed.....

Now for the "offensive portion" of the statement.

"what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well—black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well."

Is that statement false? "The media" includes and represents alot of our opinions. As a matter of fact the media forms alot of our opinion.

Nothing that he said should have incited anybody.

Provoke thought? Sure and it has.

That was what they hired him for........

ZOD
10-04-2003, 04:51 PM
Tex,

To answer your questions directly.

Shill? No I don't think the media is a shill. I think the media raises topics for debate and beats some of them into the ground until they "catch on" or the topic just dies at first glance. I think the media is worse than what you accuse Rush of being. Instead of citing the writer's or broadcaster's opinion on a matter they just fan flames. The exception of course is the few local broadcast news outlets that allow their program director do an "editorial" for 30 seconds a week or the last page in the first section of the local newpaper (editorial page). Instead most of the opinion is disguised inside of "news".

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

It's the quality of writing is at judgement here not the ideas in the writing that I am pointing out. I think you could agree that if a newspaper just reported "news" alot of trees could be saved and broadcasts could actually get all the "news" done in 15 minutes. The "news" when reported without opinion is "dry". And when we receive "news" with all political points of view represented it resembles more of a "PBS frontline" episode. Opinion does sneak in....

Wow! What the hell was the question again?:hitself:

Okay I'm back.....:whew:

Rush didn't raise the issue about ALL black QB's. We (including you) did.

His statement was about one individual's overall performance to date and his opinion of where all the "whoopla" derived from.

Why did he not mention Kordell or Quincy you ask? Because it is a general consensus amongst most NFL observers that these two QB's performance has sucked their entire career. There has been no "whoopla" over the two of them and they have not signed 100 million dollar contracts....

And to boot......

They were not the topic of discussion in that segment of NFL Sunday Countdown.

As for your last question about the media and preferential treatment.... I don't know...You tell me...I did a google search and changed one word...

Click here and tell me what you find. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=white+coach+hiring)

TexPhinPhan
10-04-2003, 05:39 PM
"what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well—black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well"

Yes he does bring up all black qb's. "media has been desirous that . . . black quarterbacks" (note plural) My point about Kordell and Quincy (and I believe McNabb as well) is that the media treats them exactly the same as white qbs. Probably too much credit and blame.

Rush IS the media. Anyone clearing 30 mill a year from a conglomeration of radio, tv and print is at the top of the media empire, or very near it. Clearly he is extremely important and intergral part ofthe resurgence of the right wing of the republican party.

If you want to talk about opinion disguised as news, look no further than Fox. PBS Frontline clearly has a anti-establishment, investigative slant and I admit more liberal than conservative, but the fact they have a point of view is not hidden, unlike Britt Hume and his delivery of the "news."

We must simply disagree re race baiting. Comments about all criminals looking like Jesse Jackson, or telling black callers to remove the bone from their nose seem to fall under that catagory. Finally his comment about black QB's being overrated because thay are black is clearly a form of race baiting.

Finally, open debate is not something Rush really gets involved with.

If the point of tha last google search is that white coached don't get a fair shake, well all I can say is look at DivI and NFL, they are doing pretty good.

ZOD
10-04-2003, 05:47 PM
Tex,

The last comment was a "loose" observation about the media coverage of the two parties involved...

This conversation gets old unless it's person to person.

If I knew you and we were in present company I'd love to continue with a couple of beers and some conversation....

But I'm out of this one......

TexPhinPhan
10-04-2003, 07:12 PM
Fair enough.

Enjoyed it.

Texphinphan

Dolfan02
10-07-2003, 03:48 PM
I hope you do get to discuss this issue face-to-face because Zod is correct in saying that controversial issues cannnot sway the opinion of another over the Internet. I have always believed that.

However, Zod you made some really excellent points. After reading all the views expressed by Zod and TexPhinPhan with an open-mind to understand both sides, Zod does not make any further assumptions from Rush's comments, so I couldn't agree more with Zod. Nor did Zod have to justify his beliefs by refering to "right-wing", "liberal", "conservative", or "leftist" or "political conspirancy", in contrast to TexPhin who confirmed point of views as "more liberal than conservative" and identifies Rush as an opposing "Republican" and not an individual stating an opinion. That sounds like making pre-judgements to me and not being open-minded or ready for debate.

Zod, you really demonstrated a great point of view with the 2 separate Google searches. It truly hit the bulls-eye and it can not be avoided nor explained within our country. We live in a country of double standards and its getting real gross. Racism will never die unless the likes such as the NAACP allow it to die. I strongly believe their enemy is within themselves, and not an individual like Rush.

TexPhinPhan
10-07-2003, 10:18 PM
I know I said I was done but I can't help myself.

First, I said that Frontline was more liberal than conservative, not me.

Second re: Rush, right wing and Republican. There is a reason that Rush was made an honorary member of the House republicans in 1994. As Rush is very happy to say, he was a large reason why they were elected. I do not believe that any one with a radio would dispute that Rush is a member of the right wing of the republican party, Rush included (at least in ideology. I do not know how he is registered)

Having an open mind does not mean thinking in a vacuum. I know, you know, everyone knows that Rush is conservative. It is not ony ok, it is essential to consider a person's prior public statements when attempting to understand what they are trying to communicate. Rush isn't just "an individual stating an opinion" He is a highly paid member of the media who's self described mission is to convert as many people as possible to his way of thinking.

I do not identify the republican party as the enemy. But I will admit to deep concern about the conservative branch of the party.

I will also admit to having a fairly low opinion of Rush and his particular brand of political discourse. Does this color my opinion of his statements? Of course it does. Just as someone who admires or agrees with much of what he says will also have some preconcieved ideas about the man.

Open debate about race in this country is essential . . . and difficult. You don't start a dialogue on race IMHO with a blanket statement that is not supportd by the facts. Further, such discussion is possible amongst self described "conservatives" and "liberals" But it is never going to suceed if people like Rush, Jesse Jackson, Mosely Braun, Hannity, etc. do the yelling and set the agenda

Finally, please show me where McNabb, the original subject of the comment, has gotten too much credit because he is black. Has been pointed out ad naseum on these threads qb's, ALL QB'S, get too much credit and blame for winning and losing.

This time I am really done. At least until next time.