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View Full Version : Mike Mayock says Alex Mack "not" the best Center



MrEd
01-20-2009, 11:20 PM
FOr all those Alex Mack at pick #25 bandwagon...Mike Mayock has Erick Wood and Max Unger as the top 2 Centers in the draft. He likes Alex Mack, but feels the other two will be better...so

Maybe Mack will be there at pick #44 or #57?

Anyways, if we are thinking C/G in the first round, it shouldn't be the 3rd best C...

Of course, I think that the #44 pick is reserved for NT Ron Brace.

dolphinator86
01-20-2009, 11:28 PM
Kiper has Mack at 14 overall and Unger at 16 overall....while i respect both Mayock and Kipers opinion i think that BP, JI, and TS will pick the best guy.

I mean when you have a coach who was an offensive line coach a VP who believes in building the lines and a GM who just has the IT factor whoever they pick will have a long prosperous career for our Miami Dolphins.

PJack
01-20-2009, 11:41 PM
Strikes me that Mack is more of a Parcells type of OL. He's bigger and, from what I read, more physical than Unger. Wood is also pretty big and relatively physical. I wonder if any of these guys are great run blockers as Cal, Oregon and Louisville are known to primarily passing teams. I agree that I'll take our FO talent evaluators over Kiper and Mayock any day.

MrEd
01-20-2009, 11:49 PM
Kiper has Mack at 14 overall and Unger at 16 overall....while i respect both Mayock and Kipers opinion i think that BP, JI, and TS will pick the best guy.

I mean when you have a coach who was an offensive line coach a VP who believes in building the lines and a GM who just has the IT factor whoever they pick will have a long prosperous career for our Miami Dolphins.

Really? so Ernest Wilford will be a Pro Bowler next season? So, Shawn Murphy will definitely be on our roster come 2009? So J Parmallee will be on our roster? Chris Crocker? Keith Davis? Sean Ryan...etc.

Come one dude. Make more realistic statements...

MrEd
01-20-2009, 11:51 PM
Strikes me that Mack is more of a Parcells type of OL. He's bigger and, from what I read, more physical than Unger. Wood is also pretty big and relatively physical. I wonder if any of these guys are great run blockers as Cal, Oregon and Louisville are known to primarily passing teams. I agree that I'll take our FO talent evaluators over Kiper and Mayock any day.

Whoever mentioned Kiper? Kiper is an idiot. I said Mayock, who is always on the money...

hooshoops
01-20-2009, 11:51 PM
ron brace at #44 is a bad decision. there is no upside pure plugger. people talkin potential 1st rounder for him are going overboard.

i agree though that mack who i have loved is not as good a value as caldwell in the late 2nd if given the opportunity. i was very impressed with caldwell today and he seems like a better fit for what we want in a center.

MrEd
01-21-2009, 12:05 AM
ron brace at #44 is a bad decision. there is no upside pure plugger. people talkin potential 1st rounder for him are going overboard.

i agree though that mack who i have loved is not as good a value as caldwell in the late 2nd if given the opportunity. i was very impressed with caldwell today and he seems like a better fit for what we want in a center.

I never mentioned Caldwell. I said Wood, Unger, and Mack. Then, a "plugger" is what we are looking for. A NT is a run stuffing plugger. Exactly what Brace is.

If you are looking for a Dorsey type, that's for the 4-3 D, not the 3-4.

Oraclepz
01-21-2009, 12:08 AM
Really? so Ernest Wilford will be a Pro Bowler next season? So, Shawn Murphy will definitely be on our roster come 2009? So J Parmallee will be on our roster? Chris Crocker? Keith Davis? Sean Ryan...etc.

Come one dude. Make more realistic statements...


your probably right.... but who doesnt miss every once in a while... what about.. Bess?? Langford??? Merling??? Jake Long??? Donald Thomas showed flashes.....and P.S. Most of those names your mentioned above were camp fodders!

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 12:10 AM
I never mentioned Caldwell. I said Wood, Unger, and Mack. Then, a "plugger" is what we are looking for. A NT is a run stuffing plugger. Exactly what Brace is.

If you are looking for a Dorsey type, that's for the 4-3 D, not the 3-4.

ok...give me caldwell over all those other centers you mentioned for our team and how we want to be a physical running game.

i just think brace doesn't have any kind of real upside and with that high a pick you want to lean toward upside and talent. he's not the next haloti ngata or anything. and neither is bj raji who i see as more a fit as a 4-3 dt than a nose anyway. i think you can survive passing up ron brace like talent.

3rdandinches
01-21-2009, 12:25 AM
The opinions I've listened to is Mack has been great at Center and struggled alitte at Guard. With Unger struggling alittle at Center and excelling at Guard. I personally will stay on the A.Mack bandwagon until we actually draft somebody else or sign a solid Center via FA.

WelcomeBack
01-21-2009, 12:29 AM
I'm much happier with what I saw in Antoine Caldwell. If the front office is giving up on Satele, Caldwell would be my choice.

JT-forpresident
01-21-2009, 12:30 AM
samson satele will be our starting center next year . Alex mack, nor will max unger be our first round pick .



JT-forpresident
lol

mroz
01-21-2009, 01:06 AM
Whoever mentioned Kiper? Kiper is an idiot. I said Mayock, who is always on the money...

nobody is "always" on the money, especially when it comes to the draft

mroz
01-21-2009, 01:20 AM
Couple of thoughts...

My favorite center in this years draft is Eric Wood. I brought him up a few months ago in this forum but didn't really get any response. Caldwell, Mack and Luigs (in that order) would be my next choices. I don't think Unger fits the style of offense we are trying to run here.

I would take any of those guys before 2b cause frankly, one of them is going to be there.

Taking Brace with the 44th pick would be flat out dumb. He doesnt bring anything to the table other then plugging the middle. Something we need in our scheme but not at that cost, you get those types of guys later in the draft.

Kiick72
01-21-2009, 01:20 AM
Isn't Mayock the one who said Long would be better suited to Right Tackle and wouldn't be that good at Left Tackle? Hmm, then I guess Long making the Pro Bowl now as a Rookie Left Tackle means Mayock should be eating a pretty healthy plate of crow.

3rdandinches
01-21-2009, 05:40 AM
FOr all those Alex Mack at pick #25 bandwagon...Mike Mayock has Erick Wood and Max Unger as the top 2 Centers in the draft. He likes Alex Mack, but feels the other two will be better...so

Maybe Mack will be there at pick #44 or #57?

Anyways, if we are thinking C/G in the first round, it shouldn't be the 3rd best C...

Of course, I think that the #44 pick is reserved for NT Ron Brace.



http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/01/BostonCollege_logo-1.gif[/img] B.J. Raji, Boston College (http://walterfootball.com/pro2009bjraji.php)
Height: 6-1. Weight: 334.
Projected 40 Time: 5.12.
Projected Round (2009): Top 15 Pick.
1/21/09: With the exception of Alex Mack, B.J. Raji has dominated everyone at the Senior Bowl]

Kdawg954
01-21-2009, 05:50 AM
This has been my argument all along, Mack is great . . . the best run blocking Center in this draft and alot of experience at Center . . . but there are several SOLID Centers in this draft and some won't require a first round pick to get. I'm just not a fan of drafting Center in round 1. I have been on the Caldwell bandwagon and the Wood bandwagon as Centers we should look at.

BTW, Mack looked real bad at Guard, now I know we are drafting him as a Center but some people said he maybe could be a solid Guard as well (just in case for the strangest reason he struggles at Center in camp . . . shouldn't happen, but even Ryan Kalil in Carolina wasn't the Center his first year . . . and he was a highly regarded Center prospect as well).

Now it's just practice but that is when the DT's had the most success against him. He was pretty solid at Center.

Kdawg954
01-21-2009, 05:53 AM
I rank the Centers for our team like this:

1. Alex Mack
2. Antoine Caldwell
3. Eric Wood
4. Jonathan Luigs
5. Max Unger (Better Guard/Tackle prospect)

Yes I have Mack 1, but he isn't this godly elite prospect over the other guys either and from a value standpoint, I think Wood and Caldwell offer the most for us.

jim1
01-21-2009, 08:32 AM
I rank the Centers for our team like this:

1. Alex Mack
2. Antoine Caldwell
3. Eric Wood
4. Jonathan Luigs
5. Max Unger (Better Guard/Tackle prospect)

Yes I have Mack 1, but he isn't this godly elite prospect over the other guys either and from a value standpoint, I think Wood and Caldwell offer the most for us.


I thnk that Mack would help set the tone for the OL and the team in terms of aggression and physical dominance. That's what he has in spades over Unger and Caldwell. He strikes me as one of those guys, like Jake Long, that you can count on starting and playing well for a good 10-12 years.

rev kev
01-21-2009, 08:49 AM
The opinions I've listened to is Mack has been great at Center and struggled alitte at Guard. With Unger struggling alittle at Center and excelling at Guard. I personally will stay on the A.Mack bandwagon until we actually draft somebody else or sign a solid Center via FA.

Exactly draft a pure C with the intention of playing at Center solely... Alex Mack as a G... why...?

rev kev
01-21-2009, 08:52 AM
samson satele will be our starting center next year . Alex mack, nor will max unger be our first round pick .



JT-forpresident
lol

All the C will drop out of the first round... even if they have first rd grades

rev kev
01-21-2009, 08:53 AM
Isn't Mayock the one who said Long would be better suited to Right Tackle and wouldn't be that good at Left Tackle? Hmm, then I guess Long making the Pro Bowl now as a Rookie Left Tackle means Mayock should be eating a pretty healthy plate of crow.

Some people have selective or short memories :rolleyes2:

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 10:27 AM
Exactly draft a pure C with the intention of playing at Center solely... Alex Mack as a G... why...?


it's called versatility. something this regime looks for. why do you think we had vonnie holliday and philip merling getting reps last year in camp at olb???

i wouldn't be so concerned with how some of these centers are looking in one on one other than if they lack the strength to anchor and the ability to recover as in that drill the defenders are working with much more space than you'd see in game situations and the drills are geared towards the defender having all the advantages. these guys want to do work in a phone booth.

both mack and caldwell have displayed those skills to me.

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 10:30 AM
I rank the Centers for our team like this:

1. Alex Mack
2. Antoine Caldwell
3. Eric Wood
4. Jonathan Luigs
5. Max Unger (Better Guard/Tackle prospect)

Yes I have Mack 1, but he isn't this godly elite prospect over the other guys either and from a value standpoint, I think Wood and Caldwell offer the most for us.

i've got it for us:

1 caldwell
2 mack
3 wood/luigs

i can see both wood and luigs struggling with nfl noses

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 10:40 AM
I tell you what, while everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger (and now Eric Wood), I see Miami's choices differently.

I think that, ok, if you're going to give up on Samson Satele...then you do it in a big way. You go ahead and get yourself Jason Brown, the hottest Center free agent in the game, a guy that went up against Haloti Ngata (quite possibly the premier NT in football) in practice every day and came out one tough son of a gun. He will expect to be paid the most of any Center in football. That's not difficult, actually. The Bucs made Jeff Faine the highest paid Center in the NFL with a 6 year, $37.5 million contract that included $15 million to sign. The extension Olin Kreutz signed in 2006 pays him roughly 5.8 million a year for three years. The contract Andre Gurode signed in 2007 was six years, $30 million, with $10 million to sign. Nick Hardwick is only being paid $17 million on 6 years.

Just last year we signed Justin Smiley to a 5 year, $25 million deal...and giving Jason Brown what he wants will only cost a little over a million a year more than Justin Smiley? That's not a terrible deal, if you feel that the Center position is SO important, that we already need to write off Samson Satele, a second round investment, and use our #25 overall pick on yet another Center. I say that if you're going to do that, do it right, get a guy that's proven, get Jason Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think we should do that at all. While everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger, personally I'm looking at an A.Q. Shipley. He is someone you can get much cheaper, much lower, that played extremely well at Penn State, is a very smart player, a former Nose Guard that knows leverage and can't be bull rushed. He won the Rimington Award as the nation's top Center. He is an All American. He's knocked because he doesn't have long arms. Big deal. Neither did Nick Mangold.

If you take an A.Q. Shipley much lower in the draft, he can function as depth, like an Al Johnson, and IF he's good enough, THEN you can start to think about putting him in the starting lineup over Samson Satele, and moving Samson out to one of the guard spots as depth (if Donald Thomas pans out) or as a starter (if Thomas gets hurt).

In the mean time, judging from the players that Miami is out there interviewing...I have no reason to believe they're targeting an Alex Mack, Max Unger, Eric Wood, Antoine Caldwell or Johnathan Luigs.

Pay through the nose for Jason Brown, or take an A.Q. Shipley. Those are the choices I would be deciding between.

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 10:49 AM
i like shipley also. i'm just going off the senior bowl talent.

ck, did you see haloti ngata this postseason??? my god what a monster. i couldn't take my eyes off him. versatile powerful athletic feet of a ballerina.

best nose in the game period to me. unstoppable

can you clue us in on who we're said to be interviewing???

Kdawg954
01-21-2009, 11:02 AM
Really I am fully on the Jason Brown bandwagon as well as resigning Vernon Carey around 5 million a year. Yes it will cost . . . but then u have the line solidified with the 3 most important pieces at LT, C and RT . . . and u have 3 solid options at guard with Smiley, Satele and Donald Thomas . . . all under contract for 2 years or more. Combine that with the bodies on the line like Ndukwe, Alleman, Murphy and McChesney . . . I'm sure we can use one or 2 as depth on this roster. Then we just get some offensive tackle depth on day 2 of the draft, and we are good on this line.

With that, we can in turn resign the guys we need to resign, focus on a guy like Sintim in round 1, and then looking at guys like Delmas - FS, Brace - NT, a young CB and a ILB.

Really, Brown is becomming the only Free Agent I want to go after (unless a solid veteran WR comes available). Let's resign our guys and get this ball rolling.

dolphinator86
01-21-2009, 11:04 AM
Really? so Ernest Wilford will be a Pro Bowler next season? So, Shawn Murphy will definitely be on our roster come 2009? So J Parmallee will be on our roster? Chris Crocker? Keith Davis? Sean Ryan...etc.

Come one dude. Make more realistic statements...


And what about Bess, Thomas, Langford, Merling, Long, Ferguson, Fasano, Smiley, Penington, Starks, Polite.

YEAH BP HAS ZERO ABILITY TO DEDUCE TALENT....how about YOU make more realistic statements.

Of course he is gonna make mistakes everyone does. but when you hit on more than you miss on then you get the nod for being a great evaluator of talent.

Oh yea did any of those guys he missed on hurt us in the long run NOOOOOOOOO....Crocker got beat like a drum but last time i checked the ones I put up got us to the playoffs or were a part of the resurrection of this team.

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 11:07 AM
i like shipley also. i'm just going off the senior bowl talent.

ck, did you see haloti ngata this postseason??? my god what a monster. i couldn't take my eyes off him. versatile powerful athletic feet of a ballerina.

best nose in the game period to me. unstoppable

can you clue us in on who we're said to be interviewing???

So far I've heard Tyronne Green, Andy LeVitre, Rashad Johnson, Louis Delmas and Cody Brown.

And yes, absolutely unstoppable. And what kills me about this whole craze with Mack and Unger, etc...is a big part of the reason people want to replace Samson Satele is because of how he did against Haloti Ngata in the playoff game...with only waiver wire players like Ikechuku Ndukwe and Andy Alleman to his left and right to try and help him out.

Kdawg954
01-21-2009, 11:08 AM
And what about Bess, Thomas, Langford, Merling, Long, Ferguson, Fasano, Smiley, Penington, Starks, Polite.

YEAH BP HAS ZERO ABILITY TO DEDUCE TALENT....how about YOU make more realistic statements.

Of course he is gonna make mistakes everyone does. but when you hit on more than you miss on then you get the nod for being a great evaluator of talent.

Oh yea did any of those guys he missed on hurt us in the long run NOOOOOOOOO....Crocker got beat like a drum but last time i checked the ones I put up got us to the playoffs or were a part of the resurrection of this team.

Murphy was the only mistake last draft, and by selecting Donald Thomas . . . we covered our mistake. Parmalee and Hillard were insurance policies as there was big question marks regarding all 3 running backs on our current roster.

People like to overexaggerate things. Truth is we had a great draft and offseason. Top 3 in the league.

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 11:15 AM
I think MrEd is just trying to say that even guys with proven track records are wrong a good amount of the time and so it's perfectly valid to disagree with them on any given issue.

Of course, he could have said it a lot less combatively.

And also, anyone who really thinks Mel Kiper is an idiot, sounds ignorant to me.

jim1
01-21-2009, 11:18 AM
So far I've heard Tyronne Green, Andy LeVitre, Rashad Johnson, Louis Delmas and Cody Brown.

And yes, absolutely unstoppable. And what kills me about this whole craze with Mack and Unger, etc...is a big part of the reason people want to replace Samson Satele is because of how he did against Haloti Ngata in the playoff game...with only waiver wire players like Ikechuku Ndukwe and Andy Alleman to his left and right to try and help him out.

It's not just Satele's performance against Ngata. It was him getting his lunch handed to him on a rather consistent basis by Wilfork, Jenkins, etc. and seldom showing any power in the pivot. He had a lame year and left major question marks, bottom line. If he needs good Guards to not look crappy- well, that's a problem. His performance against Wilfork in the seocnd game was pathetic, almost embarrassing to watch.

Yes, he'll look better when Smiley and Thomas return. But looking better when better players surround you isn't good enough. It's a power offense now, and he's just not a power player.

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 11:24 AM
So far I've heard Tyronne Green, Andy LeVitre, Rashad Johnson, Louis Delmas and Cody Brown.

And yes, absolutely unstoppable. And what kills me about this whole craze with Mack and Unger, etc...is a big part of the reason people want to replace Samson Satele is because of how he did against Haloti Ngata in the playoff game...with only waiver wire players like Ikechuku Ndukwe and Andy Alleman to his left and right to try and help him out.

i thought satele struggled with just about any nose this season. ngata though is a whole different level.

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 11:25 AM
It's not just Satele's performance against Ngata. It was him getting his lunch handed to him on a rather consistent basis by Wilfork, Jenkins, etc. and seldom showing any power in the pivot. He had a lame year and left major question marks, bottom line. if he needs good Guards to not look crappy- well, that's a problem. His performance against Wilfork in the seocnd game was pathetic, almost embarrassing to watch.

Yes, he'll look better when Smiley and Thomas return. But looking better when better players surround you isn't good enough. It's a power offese now, and he's just not a power player.

i agree with that

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 11:30 AM
cody brown was beating loadholt off the edge like he was standing still in 11 on 11 drills. i saw him one time beat him without even laying a hand on him.

looks like he's gonna have to play olb in a 3-4 to me.

WelcomeBack
01-21-2009, 11:30 AM
The problem I have with taking Mack in the first is, how do we know he'll do any better against those NT's?

I'd trust in the front office if they made Mack the pick, I just don't see it.

rev kev
01-21-2009, 11:43 AM
it's called versatility. something this regime looks for. why do you think we had vonnie holliday and philip merling getting reps last year in camp at olb???

i wouldn't be so concerned with how some of these centers are looking in one on one other than if they lack the strength to anchor and the ability to recover as in that drill the defenders are working with much more space than you'd see in game situations and the drills are geared towards the defender having all the advantages. these guys want to do work in a phone booth.

both mack and caldwell have displayed those skills to me.

1a. Why would you make that leap the brass wants versatility on the Oline...? We currently don't eevn have depth let alone 5 starters one could count on. You really believe they want to draft a guy they can play all positions over a Pro Bowl talent...?

1b. How games did Merling play OLB and how many downs did Vonnie play OLB

2. If we aren't UPGRADING why bother at all our center is serviceable

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 12:07 PM
i thought satele struggled with just about any nose this season. ngata though is a whole different level.

He didn't struggle at all with Vince Wilfork in the first NE game, and I personally did not see him struggling with Vince as much in the second game as I've heard people intimate, either. He didn't struggle at all with Kris Jenkins in Week 17.

Keeping in mind that every Center in the National Football League is supposed to struggle one-on-one with a face-up nose tackle, and if he's not, you need a new nose tackle.

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 12:09 PM
It's not just Satele's performance against Ngata. It was him getting his lunch handed to him on a rather consistent basis by Wilfork, Jenkins, etc. and seldom showing any power in the pivot. He had a lame year and left major question marks, bottom line. If he needs good Guards to not look crappy- well, that's a problem. His performance against Wilfork in the seocnd game was pathetic, almost embarrassing to watch.

Yes, he'll look better when Smiley and Thomas return. But looking better when better players surround you isn't good enough. It's a power offense now, and he's just not a power player.

I really disagree with that. I watched him closely against some of the opponents you say he struggled against and I did not see what you are talking about.

I think he has struggled at times this year, he is a second year player and he was bracketed by crap the final third of the season, and the criticisms have just snowballed to where the statements about what he did or did not do are not really reflecting what actually happened.

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 12:10 PM
cody brown was beating loadholt off the edge like he was standing still in 11 on 11 drills. i saw him one time beat him without even laying a hand on him.

looks like he's gonna have to play olb in a 3-4 to me.

Which is why we're talking to him. :)

One of my draft partners, Con, really likes Cody Brown.

WelcomeBack
01-21-2009, 12:13 PM
Team drills, Raji just blew up Mack three yards in the backfield. End of play.

Edit: Twice in a row.

rev kev
01-21-2009, 12:24 PM
Team drills, Raji just blew up Mack three yards in the backfield. End of play.

Edit: Twice in a row.

Raji may not be around at #25 if he doesn't take a few plays off

hooshoops
01-21-2009, 12:25 PM
He didn't struggle at all with Vince Wilfork in the first NE game, and I personally did not see him struggling with Vince as much in the second game as I've heard people intimate, either. He didn't struggle at all with Kris Jenkins in Week 17.

Keeping in mind that every Center in the National Football League is supposed to struggle one-on-one with a face-up nose tackle, and if he's not, you need a new nose tackle.

the kris jenkins we saw in the first game and the kris jenkins we saw in the final game were 2 different players. jenkins looked like and had looked like it for some weeks that he had run out of gas and mailed it in for the year.

i think a lot of the success satele had against wilfork in the first game was more a result of the surprise wildcat but that's just my opinion. i agree he had nothing around him the last 3rd of the season. alleman and ndukwe were just bad.

i've also heard that satele had shoulder surgery after the season and played with a minor injury throughout most of the year but i haven't been able to confirm or deny it.

i think we need a more power and physical presence at center for this offense.

rev kev
01-21-2009, 12:41 PM
the kris jenkins we saw in the first game and the kris jenkins we saw in the final game were 2 different players. jenkins looked like and had looked like it for some weeks that he had run out of gas and mailed it in for the year.

i think a lot of the success satele had against wilfork in the first game was more a result of the surprise wildcat but that's just my opinion. i agree he had nothing around him the last 3rd of the season. alleman and ndukwe were just bad.

i've also heard that satele had shoulder surgery after the season and played with a minor injury throughout most of the year but i haven't been able to confirm or deny it.

i think we need a more power and physical presence at center for this offense.

Agreed...

JT-forpresident
01-21-2009, 12:58 PM
I tell you what, while everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger (and now Eric Wood), I see Miami's choices differently.

I think that, ok, if you're going to give up on Samson Satele...then you do it in a big way. You go ahead and get yourself Jason Brown, the hottest Center free agent in the game, a guy that went up against Haloti Ngata (quite possibly the premier NT in football) in practice every day and came out one tough son of a gun. He will expect to be paid the most of any Center in football. That's not difficult, actually. The Bucs made Jeff Faine the highest paid Center in the NFL with a 6 year, $37.5 million contract that included $15 million to sign. The extension Olin Kreutz signed in 2006 pays him roughly 5.8 million a year for three years. The contract Andre Gurode signed in 2007 was six years, $30 million, with $10 million to sign. Nick Hardwick is only being paid $17 million on 6 years.

Just last year we signed Justin Smiley to a 5 year, $25 million deal...and giving Jason Brown what he wants will only cost a little over a million a year more than Justin Smiley? That's not a terrible deal, if you feel that the Center position is SO important, that we already need to write off Samson Satele, a second round investment, and use our #25 overall pick on yet another Center. I say that if you're going to do that, do it right, get a guy that's proven, get Jason Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think we should do that at all. While everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger, personally I'm looking at an A.Q. Shipley. He is someone you can get much cheaper, much lower, that played extremely well at Penn State, is a very smart player, a former Nose Guard that knows leverage and can't be bull rushed. He won the Rimington Award as the nation's top Center. He is an All American. He's knocked because he doesn't have long arms. Big deal. Neither did Nick Mangold.

If you take an A.Q. Shipley much lower in the draft, he can function as depth, like an Al Johnson, and IF he's good enough, THEN you can start to think about putting him in the starting lineup over Samson Satele, and moving Samson out to one of the guard spots as depth (if Donald Thomas pans out) or as a starter (if Thomas gets hurt).

In the mean time, judging from the players that Miami is out there interviewing...I have no reason to believe they're targeting an Alex Mack, Max Unger, Eric Wood, Antoine Caldwell or Johnathan Luigs.

Pay through the nose for Jason Brown, or take an A.Q. Shipley. Those are the choices I would be deciding between.

i don't know that kid from PSU, but i totally agree with you that if you want to replace what you think is an "average" center, don't go look in the draft to replace him, because you just might end up with average v2.0 ... and if you do go in the draft, don't waste such a value pick like #25, go get one in the lower rounds, make him work his way through an already thick depth at center/guard

jim1
01-21-2009, 01:00 PM
I really disagree with that. I watched him closely against some of the opponents you say he struggled against and I did not see what you are talking about.

I think he has struggled at times this year, he is a second year player and he was bracketed by crap the final third of the season, and the criticisms have just snowballed to where the statements about what he did or did not do are not really reflecting what actually happened.

All that I can go by is why I saw, and that was Satele either getting shoved around or getting very little push for most of the year. I made a point of keying on him in a few games, most noteably the second game against NE down here and the playoff game against the Ravens, and he was in the range of mediocre to downright awful. To be clear about it, those two games stand out as particularly lousy efforts, but from what I saw he was a liability for most of the year. Just my opinion.

And even though the Guard position was a problem due to injury, Satele was yanked late in the year and replaced by a Free Agent, Al Johnson. That's not to be taken lightly in my book, and is an omen of things to come. Johnson didn't last long, so that makes me wonder how good he is and his prospects for next year as well. Ergo Mack, Unger, etc.

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 01:04 PM
the kris jenkins we saw in the first game and the kris jenkins we saw in the final game were 2 different players. jenkins looked like and had looked like it for some weeks that he had run out of gas and mailed it in for the year.

i think a lot of the success satele had against wilfork in the first game was more a result of the surprise wildcat but that's just my opinion. i agree he had nothing around him the last 3rd of the season. alleman and ndukwe were just bad.

i've also heard that satele had shoulder surgery after the season and played with a minor injury throughout most of the year but i haven't been able to confirm or deny it.

i think we need a more power and physical presence at center for this offense.

I think we need more power and physical presence on the interior of the OL...but not necessarily at the Center spot. Fact of the matter is, Justin Smiley is not a power guy, and when he went down Andy Alleman was not very good, and Ikechuku Ndukwe is not the power guy that Donald Thomas was. So, did we lack power in the interior? Absolutely. But don't use a cannon to kill a mosquito, or throw the baby out with the bath water. Get your people HEALTHY, and then focus on having better depth to replace the unhealthy players than Ikechuku Ndukwe and Andy Alleman.

We went into the season with about zero OL depth and I think everyone knew that, especially once it became apparent that Shawn Murphy sucked as a rookie.

So get your people healthy, get some OL depth, and then we'll be much better off for it. Don't start writing off second round investments like bad debt just because he struggled on a few occasions this year, only his second year in the league, and quite possibly injured as you say, while surrounded by waiver wire players.

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 01:07 PM
All that I can go by is why I saw, and that was Satele either getting shoved around or getting very little push for most of the year. I made a point of keying on him in a few games, most noteably the second game against NE down here and the playoff game against the Ravens, and he was in the range of mediocre to downright awful. To be clear about it, those two games stand out as particularly lousy efforts, but from what I saw he was a liability for most of the year. Just my opinion.

Then it's clear why your opinion is so far out of whack. You coincidentally happened to be focusing on him during games in which he struggled, and were not focusing on him during games in which he played well, or played fine.


And even though the Guard position was a problem due to injury, Satele was yanked late in the year and replaced by a Free Agent, Al Johnson. That's not to be taken lightly in my book, and is an omen of things to come. Johnson didn't last long, so that makes me wonder how good he is and his prospects for next year as well. Ergo Mack, Unger, etc.

And that last part there I highlighted just isn't even true. Al Johnson only ended up playing a handful of snaps for the Miami Dolphins this year, and on those snaps, Samson Satele was moved over to Guard. That's the truth. Tony Sparano was very unhappy with our Guard play and it's the reason we have a new OL coach, it's the reason why every draft offensive lineman that I have heard of Miami speaking to, has been a Guard by trade.

jim1
01-21-2009, 01:31 PM
Then it's clear why your opinion is so far out of whack. You coincidentally happened to be focusing on him during games in which he struggled, and were not focusing on him during games in which he played well, or played fine.



And that last part there I highlighted just isn't even true. Al Johnson only ended up playing a handful of snaps for the Miami Dolphins this year, and on those snaps, Samson Satele was moved over to Guard. That's the truth. Tony Sparano was very unhappy with our Guard play and it's the reason we have a new OL coach, it's the reason why every draft offensive lineman that I have heard of Miami speaking to, has been a Guard by trade.

Regarding your first comment- well, you obviously didn't read the rest of the paragraph. I added the sentence that followed because I knew that it was inevitable that someone would jump on that and misread or misrepresent my comments.. My efforts were obviously wasted. So, again, Satele looked particularly bad in those games, but was a liability in the running attack for most of the year. I saw every game- you mention the 1st Patriots game- the Dolphins unveiled the Wildcat- don't confuse that with Satele doing particularly well against Wilfork. The whole Pats defense was confused and suspect that game. And in their next meeting, Satele got smoked by Wilfork. Big time.

No offense, but if anyone's opinions on this matter are "out of whack", it's yours. The media down here and most of the Dolfans that I know consider Satele a liability and his staring job in danger. We'll see who's right and wrong next year, but calling my opinions "out of whack" seems a bit much, and a bit odd. Anyway, no big deal, we all have our own opinions.

Roman529
01-21-2009, 01:57 PM
FOr all those Alex Mack at pick #25 bandwagon...Mike Mayock has Erick Wood and Max Unger as the top 2 Centers in the draft. He likes Alex Mack, but feels the other two will be better...so

Maybe Mack will be there at pick #44 or #57?

Anyways, if we are thinking C/G in the first round, it shouldn't be the 3rd best C...

Of course, I think that the #44 pick is reserved for NT Ron Brace.

I think it is best to wait for the combines to see who is the "best" at Center. I think besides just looking at game film of how these guys have competed in college, you also have to look at the competition these guys have faced, and then get down to who can bench the most, speed, foot work, hand size/arm length, etc. I would go with BJ Raji first and then grab a Center with one of our 2nd rounders, and probably a d-back with the other. I also like Raji's BC teamate (Ron Brace).

X-Pacolypse
01-21-2009, 02:19 PM
I've been high on Jonathan Luigs for a while now, but Eric Wood has really started to grow on me as of late.

rev kev
01-21-2009, 02:38 PM
I think it is best to wait for the combines to see who is the "best" at Center. I think besides just looking at game film of how these guys have competed in college, you also have to look at the competition these guys have faced, and then get down to who can bench the most, speed, foot work, hand size/arm length, etc. I would go with BJ Raji first and then grab a Center with one of our 2nd rounders, and probably a d-back with the other. I also like Raji's BC teamate (Ron Brace).

Same Roman we agree..., The Oline needs some infusion on that first day and likely in the second round..., If Raji is gone I think they trade the pick..., see we are still very much in a rebuild...

ckparrothead
01-21-2009, 03:08 PM
Regarding your first comment- well, you obviously didn't read the rest of the paragraph. I added the sentence that followed because I knew that it was inevitable that someone would jump on that and misread or misrepresent my comments.. My efforts were obviously wasted. So, again, Satele looked particularly bad in those games, but was a liability in the running attack for most of the year. I saw every game- you mention the 1st Patriots game- the Dolphins unveiled the Wildcat- don't confuse that with Satele doing particularly well against Wilfork. The whole Pats defense was confused and suspect that game. And in their next meeting, Satele got smoked by Wilfork. Big time.

No offense, but if anyone's opinions on this matter are "out of whack", it's yours. The media down here and most of the Dolfans that I know consider Satele a liability and his staring job in danger. We'll see who's right and wrong next year, but calling my opinions "out of whack" seems a bit much, and a bit odd. Anyway, no big deal, we all have our own opinions.

Yeah, well, once upon a time everyone considered Vernon Carey a bust, but a very, very, very small handful of us that actually paid attention to his playing time and saw what was going on could tell he was doing ok. Once upon a time, everyone among fans and media thought Jason Taylor was not a starting quality defensive end, said that "the book had been written" on how to block him, and that all you had to do was "muscle him". A small minority of us thought that sounded absurd.

We will indeed see. But, unless it's for Jason Brown, who is not only one of the premier Centers in the league, but also an affordable guy whose position limits his contract value more than his worth should normally dictate (IMO)...I don't see them ditching Samson Satele this off season. We'll find out soon enough.

NRA
01-21-2009, 05:47 PM
of course ALEX MACK is not the top center to MAYOCK.

because MAX UNGER is the the best center in this draft
with NO ONE close.

watch films of dwight stevenson [for those not old enough just to remember]
and you will INSTANLY see the similarities in his game. he is EXTREMEMLY quick off
the ball and into his man and can really stand an anchor. he will get pushed back,
but he has that ability to lock his legs and stand the guy up stopping him dead
cold.

he gets out in space and looks for guys to plow over. he would be an upper level
guard in the nfl also.

mack is a late 3rd round center/guard to me and will probably be a guard in the
nfl.

FINMAN13
01-21-2009, 05:58 PM
The Boston College DT's are just having their way with all interior lineman so far. While Mack has the tag of being a mauler, he has not shown up vs. the BC DT's...

lbmclean_sj
01-21-2009, 06:20 PM
The Boston College DT's are just having their way with all interior lineman so far. While Mack has the tag of being a mauler, he has not shown up vs. the BC DT's...

those guys made alot of money this week

alot of teams are looking for genuine NT's

jim1
01-21-2009, 06:30 PM
of course ALEX MACK is not the top center to MAYOCK.

because MAX UNGER is the the best center in this draft
with NO ONE close.

watch films of dwight stevenson [for those not old enough just to remember]
and you will INSTANLY see the similarities in his game. he is EXTREMEMLY quick off
the ball and into his man and can really stand an anchor. he will get pushed back,
but he has that ability to lock his legs and stand the guy up stopping him dead
cold.

he gets out in space and looks for guys to plow over. he would be an upper level
guard in the nfl also.

mack is a late 3rd round center/guard to me and will probably be a guard in the
nfl.

Actually Antoinne Caldwell reminds me a lot of Dwight Stephenson. Incredible feet, incredible quickness.

skipp2myloo13
01-21-2009, 06:31 PM
of course ALEX MACK is not the top center to MAYOCK.

because MAX UNGER is the the best center in this draft
with NO ONE close.

watch films of dwight stevenson [for those not old enough just to remember]
and you will INSTANLY see the similarities in his game. he is EXTREMEMLY quick off
the ball and into his man and can really stand an anchor. he will get pushed back,
but he has that ability to lock his legs and stand the guy up stopping him dead
cold.

he gets out in space and looks for guys to plow over. he would be an upper level
guard in the nfl also.

mack is a late 3rd round center/guard to me and will probably be a guard in the
nfl.

every single one of your posts should be followed up with a simple FAIL! do you just think of the stupidest thing and say it knowing it will annoy the real football fans? cobbs>ronnie. Mack in the 3rd. Unger best center. get outta here, please!

finfan54
01-21-2009, 07:26 PM
Isn't Mayock the one who said Long would be better suited to Right Tackle and wouldn't be that good at Left Tackle? Hmm, then I guess Long making the Pro Bowl now as a Rookie Left Tackle means Mayock should be eating a pretty healthy plate of crow.

Mayock has been wrong lately and he really puts himself out there but sometimes I think that is him being extra sure of himself. I wouldnt take Mayocks word as bible. Its really just an opinion.

finfan54
01-21-2009, 07:31 PM
I tell you what, while everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger (and now Eric Wood), I see Miami's choices differently.

I think that, ok, if you're going to give up on Samson Satele...then you do it in a big way. You go ahead and get yourself Jason Brown, the hottest Center free agent in the game, a guy that went up against Haloti Ngata (quite possibly the premier NT in football) in practice every day and came out one tough son of a gun. He will expect to be paid the most of any Center in football. That's not difficult, actually. The Bucs made Jeff Faine the highest paid Center in the NFL with a 6 year, $37.5 million contract that included $15 million to sign. The extension Olin Kreutz signed in 2006 pays him roughly 5.8 million a year for three years. The contract Andre Gurode signed in 2007 was six years, $30 million, with $10 million to sign. Nick Hardwick is only being paid $17 million on 6 years.

Just last year we signed Justin Smiley to a 5 year, $25 million deal...and giving Jason Brown what he wants will only cost a little over a million a year more than Justin Smiley? That's not a terrible deal, if you feel that the Center position is SO important, that we already need to write off Samson Satele, a second round investment, and use our #25 overall pick on yet another Center. I say that if you're going to do that, do it right, get a guy that's proven, get Jason Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think we should do that at all. While everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger, personally I'm looking at an A.Q. Shipley. He is someone you can get much cheaper, much lower, that played extremely well at Penn State, is a very smart player, a former Nose Guard that knows leverage and can't be bull rushed. He won the Rimington Award as the nation's top Center. He is an All American. He's knocked because he doesn't have long arms. Big deal. Neither did Nick Mangold.

If you take an A.Q. Shipley much lower in the draft, he can function as depth, like an Al Johnson, and IF he's good enough, THEN you can start to think about putting him in the starting lineup over Samson Satele, and moving Samson out to one of the guard spots as depth (if Donald Thomas pans out) or as a starter (if Thomas gets hurt).

In the mean time, judging from the players that Miami is out there interviewing...I have no reason to believe they're targeting an Alex Mack, Max Unger, Eric Wood, Antoine Caldwell or Johnathan Luigs.

Pay through the nose for Jason Brown, or take an A.Q. Shipley. Those are the choices I would be deciding between.

This and TJ Houz are my two top Free agents IMO. If you get Scott from Baltimore that is icing on the cake. But I would much rather do this and draft defense bigtime in this one cus you move Satele out to G and backup C and walla, you have instant depth and strong front.

thejetssuck
01-22-2009, 11:52 AM
I think MrEd is just trying to say that even guys with proven track records are wrong a good amount of the time and so it's perfectly valid to disagree with them on any given issue.

Of course, he could have said it a lot less combatively.

And also, anyone who really thinks Mel Kiper is an idiot, sounds ignorant to me.

What I can;t stand about Mel Kiper is how he ******* and whines and trashes teams that don't pick the players he thought they should have picked in the draft. I'll take John Clayton's or Mike Mayock's analysis over Mel Kiper's any day. Mel Kiper is one pretentious SOB and I really wish espn would replace him with someone better. Hopefully you can take his job away from him someday CK.

I am Bane
01-22-2009, 12:08 PM
i agree with this.... hence why i am saying i not fond of a lot of linemen out there. Mack is the most stout and applies a punch then the other C... Unger gets driven backwards often, playing too high, and people get under him easily... plus most of these guys dont have great strong legs, and poor base... hence why some may say Mack is on the ground a lot.

not overly fond of these guys, but Mack would be the guy i go with. can bulk more, great knowledge in there, and is very strong.



Strikes me that Mack is more of a Parcells type of OL. He's bigger and, from what I read, more physical than Unger. Wood is also pretty big and relatively physical. I wonder if any of these guys are great run blockers as Cal, Oregon and Louisville are known to primarily passing teams. I agree that I'll take our FO talent evaluators over Kiper and Mayock any day.

ckparrothead
01-22-2009, 01:24 PM
Kiper is just confident because he's been doing this work a long time and he actually has great insight, and most importantly does his homework. So he's confident in his evaluations. I don't have a problem with that.

One thing people have to realize I think is there's a lot of either/or involved in all of this. For instance, if you grab Jason Brown, you lose Vernon Carey. You ok with that? If you let Vernon Carey walk, and replace him with a first round tackle such as Eben Britton, Andre Smith or William Beatty...you free up the money to grab yourself a player like a Karlos Dansby...maybe even an Albert Haynesworth. Wouldn't that be kind of cool?

Also keep in mind many of the name free agents won't be leaving their respective teams. You have to be keen to spot out the situations where the teams are a bit hamstrung. For instance, I think that between Karlos Dansby, Kurt Warner, the Darnell Dockett situation, the Anquan Boldin situation, Leonard Pope (RFA), Antonio Smith, Bertrand Berry, Gabe Watson (RFA), Eric Green, Ralph Brown, the Antrel Rolle situation, the Edgerrin James situation...there are going to be some players shaking loose out of Arizona. You kind of have to hope maybe the right ones shake loose.

Also, in Carolina they've got two biggies in Julius Peppers and Jordan Gross. They can probably only keep one. Which is it?

Baltimore has to deal with Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, Bart Scott, Jason Brown and Jim Leonhard all being UFAs. I think most people assume Bart Scott will shake loose, but they also probably assume he'll follow Rex up to New York.

Rio
01-22-2009, 01:38 PM
need to find a starting: Center,WR. & NG this off season

MrClean
01-29-2009, 05:07 PM
FOr all those Alex Mack at pick #25 bandwagon...Mike Mayock has Erick Wood and Max Unger as the top 2 Centers in the draft. He likes Alex Mack, but feels the other two will be better...so

Maybe Mack will be there at pick #44 or #57?

Anyways, if we are thinking C/G in the first round, it shouldn't be the 3rd best C...

Of course, I think that the #44 pick is reserved for NT Ron Brace.

This is one issue I have with Mayock, though I usually prefer him 10 to 1 over Helmet Hair Mel. On Monday of Senior Bowl week, he ranked the Cs as Unger, Wood, Mack. Then after two days of practices there, he flip flopped Unger and Wood. IMO, there is little of nothing from just 2 days of practices that should change the order. He spoke of Wood on Wednesday as if he were his #1 C all along and from looking at his list, I know it did not reflect that. If Wood is his #1 center, that's fine, he just should have been before Senior Bowl week.

3rdandinches
01-29-2009, 05:36 PM
Kiper is just confident because he's been doing this work a long time and he actually has great insight, and most importantly does his homework. So he's confident in his evaluations. I don't have a problem with that.

One thing people have to realize I think is there's a lot of either/or involved in all of this. For instance, if you grab Jason Brown, you lose Vernon Carey. You ok with that? If you let Vernon Carey walk, and replace him with a first round tackle such as Eben Britton, Andre Smith or William Beatty...you free up the money to grab yourself a player like a Karlos Dansby...maybe even an Albert Haynesworth. Wouldn't that be kind of cool?

Also keep in mind many of the name free agents won't be leaving their respective teams. You have to be keen to spot out the situations where the teams are a bit hamstrung. For instance, I think that between Karlos Dansby, Kurt Warner, the Darnell Dockett situation, the Anquan Boldin situation, Leonard Pope (RFA), Antonio Smith, Bertrand Berry, Gabe Watson (RFA), Eric Green, Ralph Brown, the Antrel Rolle situation, the Edgerrin James situation...there are going to be some players shaking loose out of Arizona. You kind of have to hope maybe the right ones shake loose.

Also, in Carolina they've got two biggies in Julius Peppers and Jordan Gross. They can probably only keep one. Which is it?

Baltimore has to deal with Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, Bart Scott, Jason Brown and Jim Leonhard all being UFAs. I think most people assume Bart Scott will shake loose, but they also probably assume he'll follow Rex up to New York.


Each situation is interesting Carolina needs Peppers badly and have no one else to replace him but he says he wants out. J.Gross can be replaced by Wharton or Otah and then their spots are easily replaced in the draft. Their also in bad cap shape which really doesn't help them.

Baltimore has always spent their money on defense and it seems to only get them so far. I can't believe they'd let Lewis go when he's the leader and still plays great defense. Scott seems to be the easy one to replace if you re-sign Suggs and Lewis. If J.Brown makes the open market he has to become priority one (and I'm a big A.Mack fan otherwise), we could still re-sign VC or another draft pick could be used there.

Arizona's another wild scenario with alot of guys are going to want inflated contracts after making it to the Superbowl. Dansby would be seeking the most and hopefully they figure they can let him go and porbably replace him with another WR lol!

It will be one interesting offseason!!!!!

rev kev
01-29-2009, 05:53 PM
No C is going first round - sorry cannot buy it...

5 Cs are not going in the second round sorry can't buy it...

FO will bite into a C/G when the time is right... I can buy into that

BillParFan
01-29-2009, 06:07 PM
But I would much rather do this and draft defense bigtime in this one cus you move Satele out to G and backup C and walla, you have instant depth and strong front.

Walla?

As in Ooo eee,ooo ah ah ting tang, Walla walla, bing bang? :wink:
J/K


Sparano (http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2008/12/it-boggles-the.html)went on to make the point Satele played guard at Hawaii and that, as the Dallas offensive line coach, Sparano studied the player before the draft.
"We really looked at him as a swing player at the time when we were in Dallas -- a center-guard," the coach said. "We knew that was something that he has done and I think, athletically, when you take the ball out from between his legs and you put him over there at guard, it gives him a chance to get his hands on people a little bit faster. So I thought he did a pretty good job.”

skipp2myloo13
01-29-2009, 06:11 PM
Skipp2myloo says "all these so called experts, dont know what the hell they are talking about"

PHINANALYST
02-02-2009, 09:22 PM
i don't think it matters, as i just don't see our FO using the #1 on a C ... 'maybe' 2b or the 3d ...

SamIam
02-02-2009, 09:33 PM
Jason Brown is RFA and not a UFA.

2009 NFL Free Agent Offensive Linemen

Matt Birk, UFA, Minnesota Vikings
Birk is a Pro Bowl center that has gotten the job done for the Vikings for the last decade. He’s fairly athletic for a lineman and was playing alongside another great lineman in guard Steve Hutchinson, making Birk’s life even easier on the field the past couple of seasons. He’s grounded in Minnesota, so the chances of him choosing to leave seem slim at the moment. However, Minnesota is grooming John Sullivan in hopes that he will eventually replace Birk.

Mike Goff, UFA, San Diego Chargers
While the Chargers would probably prefer to keep Goff, the franchise has been effective in drafting and developing linemen and might look for Goff’s replacement at a better price. Goff has been a leader who simply goes about his business and players like running back Ladainian Tomlinson have benefited from his level of play. Goff has played for a quality line for some time and he’s a big part of the equation when it comes to success.

Jordan Gross, UFA, Carolina Panthers
A first round pick in 2003, Gross earned a starting role in his rookie season and held that role as a tackle for the entire season. His ability to step in and play well right away paid off for the Panthers, as the team put together a run to an NFC Championship that season. He’s continued being a starter since that rookie season and is a solid player. Carolina slapped the franchise tag on him for this season, and chances are he will be another team come ’09.

Mark Tauscher, UFA, Green Bay Packers
Tauscher is a seventh round pick that became a success story. In his first season in the NFL, he was forced into a starting role because of an injury to another player. Tauscher isn’t an elite player, but he is solid in his role as a starter and hadn’t missed a game since 2002 until this season. Tauscher could be at the top of many team’s lists because he could come cheaper than some of the other free agent lineman, but could be nearly or equally effective.

Marvel Smith, UFA, Pittsburgh Steelers
Smith may not be the most sought after offensive lineman during free agency, but he could be a bargain for a team willing to chance his health concerns by offering him a contract. He is a Pro-Bowl player with a Super Bowl ring, but back injuries have forced him to miss time this season and to be placed on injured reserve, thus impacting his potential value on the market. When healthy, Smith is one of the league’s best and Pittsburgh will attempt to keep him around because of the quality of player he has shown he can be.

Jahri Evans, RFA, New Orleans Saints
Since starting every game at the guard position in his rookie season, Evans has proven to be a quality lineman. He was drafted in the fourth round, but is in for a decent-sized contract this offseason. Any team in the market for a guard is going to consider Evans and the fact that he has helped protect for quarterback Drew Brees and an offense that has had plenty of time to operate and rack up yards. The Saints will look to keep Evans around, but there is bound to be a team willing to tempt him with a fair amount of money.

Jason Brown, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
A fourth round selection in ’05 for the Ravens, Brown played in all sixteen games in ’06, starting in twelve of those appearances, and has started each game during the past two seasons. He is a quick guard who can also play center in a pinch. Rookie quarterback Joe Flacco benefited from the protection he was afforded by the likes of Brown. Baltimore’s offense is asked to complement one of the league’s best defensive units and Brown’s stability on the line has been critical. Whichever team winds up signing Brown will be adding security at a guard spot.

Jeff Saturday, UFA, Indianapolis Colts
Saturday entered the league with little fanfare as an undrafted free agent. Now, he has become one of the league’s best centers and will command a decent contract for his experience and performance. Having already earned three Pro Bowl and All Pro selections and a Super Bowl ring, Saturday is crucial to the Colts offensive line and winning ways. While a handful of teams could make a run at Saturday, expect the Colts to do everything in their power to retain the veteran center.


Other Offensive Lineman
Stacy Andrews, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Khalif Barnes, UFA, Jacksonville Jaguars
Jordan Black, UFA, Houston Texans
Vernon Carey, UFA, Miami Dolphins
George Foster, UFA, Detroit Lions
Chris Gray, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Pete Kendall, UFA, Washington Redskins
Seth McKinney, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Jon Runyan, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Tra Thomas, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Fred Weary, UFA, Houston Texans
John Welbourn, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs

CedarPhin
02-02-2009, 09:37 PM
Do you think Goff would be someone worth looking at? Or do you scoff at the idea of Goff? haha.

4THand10
02-02-2009, 10:24 PM
Jason Brown is RFA and not a UFA.

2009 NFL Free Agent Offensive Linemen

Matt Birk, UFA, Minnesota Vikings
Birk is a Pro Bowl center that has gotten the job done for the Vikings for the last decade. He’s fairly athletic for a lineman and was playing alongside another great lineman in guard Steve Hutchinson, making Birk’s life even easier on the field the past couple of seasons. He’s grounded in Minnesota, so the chances of him choosing to leave seem slim at the moment. However, Minnesota is grooming John Sullivan in hopes that he will eventually replace Birk.

Mike Goff, UFA, San Diego Chargers
While the Chargers would probably prefer to keep Goff, the franchise has been effective in drafting and developing linemen and might look for Goff’s replacement at a better price. Goff has been a leader who simply goes about his business and players like running back Ladainian Tomlinson have benefited from his level of play. Goff has played for a quality line for some time and he’s a big part of the equation when it comes to success.

Jordan Gross, UFA, Carolina Panthers
A first round pick in 2003, Gross earned a starting role in his rookie season and held that role as a tackle for the entire season. His ability to step in and play well right away paid off for the Panthers, as the team put together a run to an NFC Championship that season. He’s continued being a starter since that rookie season and is a solid player. Carolina slapped the franchise tag on him for this season, and chances are he will be another team come ’09.

Mark Tauscher, UFA, Green Bay Packers
Tauscher is a seventh round pick that became a success story. In his first season in the NFL, he was forced into a starting role because of an injury to another player. Tauscher isn’t an elite player, but he is solid in his role as a starter and hadn’t missed a game since 2002 until this season. Tauscher could be at the top of many team’s lists because he could come cheaper than some of the other free agent lineman, but could be nearly or equally effective.

Marvel Smith, UFA, Pittsburgh Steelers
Smith may not be the most sought after offensive lineman during free agency, but he could be a bargain for a team willing to chance his health concerns by offering him a contract. He is a Pro-Bowl player with a Super Bowl ring, but back injuries have forced him to miss time this season and to be placed on injured reserve, thus impacting his potential value on the market. When healthy, Smith is one of the league’s best and Pittsburgh will attempt to keep him around because of the quality of player he has shown he can be.

Jahri Evans, RFA, New Orleans Saints
Since starting every game at the guard position in his rookie season, Evans has proven to be a quality lineman. He was drafted in the fourth round, but is in for a decent-sized contract this offseason. Any team in the market for a guard is going to consider Evans and the fact that he has helped protect for quarterback Drew Brees and an offense that has had plenty of time to operate and rack up yards. The Saints will look to keep Evans around, but there is bound to be a team willing to tempt him with a fair amount of money.

Jason Brown, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
A fourth round selection in ’05 for the Ravens, Brown played in all sixteen games in ’06, starting in twelve of those appearances, and has started each game during the past two seasons. He is a quick guard who can also play center in a pinch. Rookie quarterback Joe Flacco benefited from the protection he was afforded by the likes of Brown. Baltimore’s offense is asked to complement one of the league’s best defensive units and Brown’s stability on the line has been critical. Whichever team winds up signing Brown will be adding security at a guard spot.

Jeff Saturday, UFA, Indianapolis Colts
Saturday entered the league with little fanfare as an undrafted free agent. Now, he has become one of the league’s best centers and will command a decent contract for his experience and performance. Having already earned three Pro Bowl and All Pro selections and a Super Bowl ring, Saturday is crucial to the Colts offensive line and winning ways. While a handful of teams could make a run at Saturday, expect the Colts to do everything in their power to retain the veteran center.


Other Offensive Lineman
Stacy Andrews, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Khalif Barnes, UFA, Jacksonville Jaguars
Jordan Black, UFA, Houston Texans
Vernon Carey, UFA, Miami Dolphins
George Foster, UFA, Detroit Lions
Chris Gray, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Pete Kendall, UFA, Washington Redskins
Seth McKinney, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Jon Runyan, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Tra Thomas, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Fred Weary, UFA, Houston Texans
John Welbourn, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs


James Brown is a UFA not a RFA.He has played 4 years not 3 years making him a UFA.(2005,2006,2007,2008)

SamIam
02-02-2009, 11:09 PM
I took the info from another site, maybe your right

MrClean
02-02-2009, 11:12 PM
James Brown is a UFA not a RFA.He has played 4 years not 3 years making him a UFA.(2005,2006,2007,2008)

That is entirely correct. Jason Brown was a RFA last year and signed the one year tender. He will be a UFA when free agency opens. That web site saying his is a RFA is WRONG. It was mentioned in another thread and I believe the site is football futures or something close to that. There are other mistakes on that list too. Fred Weary is no longer with the Texans for example.

SamIam
02-02-2009, 11:21 PM
That is entirely correct. Jason Brown was a RFA last year and signed the one year tender. He will be a UFA when free agency opens. That web site saying his is a RFA is WRONG. It was mentioned in another thread and I believe the site is football futures or something close to that. There are other mistakes on that list too. Fred Weary is no longer with the Texans for example.

yes it was on football future, it says he is a FRA.. I guess they are wrong after all

mroz
02-02-2009, 11:54 PM
This is one issue I have with Mayock, though I usually prefer him 10 to 1 over Helmet Hair Mel. On Monday of Senior Bowl week, he ranked the Cs as Unger, Wood, Mack. Then after two days of practices there, he flip flopped Unger and Wood. IMO, there is little of nothing from just 2 days of practices that should change the order. He spoke of Wood on Wednesday as if he were his #1 C all along and from looking at his list, I know it did not reflect that. If Wood is his #1 center, that's fine, he just should have been before Senior Bowl week.

Well, Eric Wood has been my number one center for some time... :)

I am Bane
02-02-2009, 11:57 PM
i am shocked he chose Unger over Mack... i totally disagree with that.... but i can see Wood up there......

my guy is still Caldwell :)

MrClean
02-03-2009, 01:37 AM
Mack is Scott Wright's #1 center on draftcountdown.com. Scott has been online doing draft reports longer than anyone I know of, at least since mid 90s and he is usually pretty good.

"Strengths:
Ideal size and bulk...Extremely smart...Decent athlete with good agility and quickness...Physical and aggressive...Nasty with a killer instinct and always finishes plays...Great technician who understands angles and leverage...Outstanding awareness...Very strong and powerful and is a monster in the weight room...Above average mobility...Hard worker...Tough and durable... Has a lot of experience.

Weaknesses:
Does not have great balance and spends too much time on the ground...A little stiff in the hips...Not real light on his feet...Shorter arms than you'd prefer...Can be too aggressive at times...Will get out of control ... Susceptible to being overwhelmed by massive defenders.

Notes:
Recipient of the prestigious Draddy Trophy as a senior, which is also known as the "Academic Heisman", and is given to college football's top scholar-athlete...Redshirted as a true freshman, backed up Marvin Philip in 2005 then started the next three years...Went to the state wrestling tournament as a heavyweight in high school...Four-time Academic All-Pac-10...Graduated with a 3.61 GPA and a bachelor's degree in legal studies...Three-time first-team All-Pac-10...Won the Morris Trophy as the best offensive lineman in the Pac-10, as voted by the conferences defensive lineman, two years in a row...The total package who has everything you look for in terms of both physical tools and intangibles...Rare pivot who is a legitimate first round talent. "

MrClean
02-03-2009, 01:40 AM
Russ Lande also ranks him #1 at the War Room

War Room analysis
Run blocking: Consistently fires off the ball and delivers a hard initial blow to the defender. Does a good job of keeping his feet moving to stay after the block. Fights and competes until the whistle to keep the defender from disrupting the play. Makes the mistake of bending at the waist too often and can be jerked around by stronger defenders. Easily gets through the line of scrimmage to the second level to block linebackers. Is very fast getting out in front on outside runs. Can be too aggressive at times, which causes him to overextend and miss blocks. Grade: 7.5

Pass blocking: Gets out of his stance quickly to pick up the defender. Has excellent instincts and awareness, which allows him to pick up delayed blitzes. Displays good leverage. On film, looks smaller than his actual size. Tends to be driven backwards by stronger rushers. Grade: 8.0

Initial quickness: Has impressive agility. Sets up his blocks fast. Fires into the defender on in-line run blocks. Battles better against power rushers than his size would indicate. Grade: 8.0

Strength: Struggles to consistently hold his ground against larger defenders. Is not aggressive with his punch on blocks. Displays solid hands, which he uses to pin the defender on the line of scrimmage. Grade: 6.0

Mobility: Is very mobile, especially for a center. Displays the ability to bend his knees and block with leverage while on the move. Is able to get through traffic and make adjustments with ease. Grade: 7.0

Bottom line: Mack's athleticism jumps out and grabs your attention when you watch him on film. He struggled against top competition as a junior, getting overpowered too often for a player of his caliber, but he played with much more consistency against good teams as a senior. Mack has nearly all the traits to become a Pro Bowl center, but to reach that elite level, he must improve his overall strength and avoid lapses in technique.

http://warroom.sportingnews.com/nfl/draft/2009/players/8429.html

3rdandinches
02-03-2009, 09:50 AM
Russ Lande also ranks him #1 at the War Room

War Room analysis
Run blocking: Consistently fires off the ball and delivers a hard initial blow to the defender. Does a good job of keeping his feet moving to stay after the block. Fights and competes until the whistle to keep the defender from disrupting the play. Makes the mistake of bending at the waist too often and can be jerked around by stronger defenders. Easily gets through the line of scrimmage to the second level to block linebackers. Is very fast getting out in front on outside runs. Can be too aggressive at times, which causes him to overextend and miss blocks. Grade: 7.5

Pass blocking: Gets out of his stance quickly to pick up the defender. Has excellent instincts and awareness, which allows him to pick up delayed blitzes. Displays good leverage. On film, looks smaller than his actual size. Tends to be driven backwards by stronger rushers. Grade: 8.0

Initial quickness: Has impressive agility. Sets up his blocks fast. Fires into the defender on in-line run blocks. Battles better against power rushers than his size would indicate. Grade: 8.0

Strength: Struggles to consistently hold his ground against larger defenders. Is not aggressive with his punch on blocks. Displays solid hands, which he uses to pin the defender on the line of scrimmage. Grade: 6.0

Mobility: Is very mobile, especially for a center. Displays the ability to bend his knees and block with leverage while on the move. Is able to get through traffic and make adjustments with ease. Grade: 7.0

Bottom line: Mack's athleticism jumps out and grabs your attention when you watch him on film. He struggled against top competition as a junior, getting overpowered too often for a player of his caliber, but he played with much more consistency against good teams as a senior. Mack has nearly all the traits to become a Pro Bowl center, but to reach that elite level, he must improve his overall strength and avoid lapses in technique.

http://warroom.sportingnews.com/nfl/draft/2009/players/8429.html

If J.Brown is not an option in FA then Mack would be a great pick with our first.