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Dolphan7
02-13-2009, 01:18 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?_r=1


In recent months, dioceses around the world have been offering Catholics a spiritual benefit that fell out of favor decades ago — the indulgence, a sort of amnesty from punishment in the afterlife — and reminding them of the church’s clout in mitigating the wages of sin.
The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation (http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/reformat.htm)), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world.
Indulgences anyone?:lol:

Thank God for Martin Luther. Without the Protestant Reformation, we would have the Christian Church represented today by the Catholic Church, utterly lost and Apostate. This Christian wouldn't be a Christian if the Catholic church were the only game in town.

Tetragrammaton
02-13-2009, 02:03 AM
Jim Gaffigan has a very funny skit on Catholics. While every religion is strict on their rules, the Catholics are a bit different. "Don't eat fish on Friday, unless you forget!"

emeraldfin
02-13-2009, 07:47 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?_r=1

Indulgences anyone?:lol:

Thank God for Martin Luther. Without the Protestant Reformation, we would have the Christian Church represented today by the Catholic Church, utterly lost and Apostate. This Christian wouldn't be a Christian if the Catholic church were the only game in town.

Many Catholics would say the very same thing about Lutherism, especially here.

Dolphan7
02-13-2009, 10:59 AM
Many Catholics would say the very same thing about Lutherism, especially here.Oh I am sure it is the cause of many a bar fight!

emeraldfin
02-13-2009, 11:13 AM
Oh I am sure it is the cause of many a bar fight!

Well its slightly more serious than that considering many people have being killed, maimed and beaten for decideing to follow Jesus Christ and worship God in a different way.

And all in the name of Christianity :rolleyes2:

Dolphan7
02-13-2009, 11:18 AM
Well its slightly more serious than that considering many people have being killed, maimed and beaten for decideing to follow Jesus Christ and worship God in a different way.

And all in the name of Christianity :rolleyes2:

Christianity = Good
Those who follow Christianity = Eh....not so good.

:chuckle:

emeraldfin
02-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Christianity = Good
Those who follow Christianity = Eh....not so good.

:chuckle:

Well, I'm not so sure D7

I mean accepting capital punishment does'nt seem so good to me.

But thats just me.

Dolphan7
02-13-2009, 11:40 AM
Well, I'm not so sure D7

I mean accepting capital punishment does'nt seem so good to me.

But thats just me.Christianity doesn't mandate capital punishment. It was practiced under the Jewish Theocracy of the OT, but today is left to governments to figure out. Christianity is ok with or without it, and a biblical case can be made for both. It is really up to the individual and the governments.

emeraldfin
02-13-2009, 12:16 PM
Christianity doesn't mandate capital punishment. It was practiced under the Jewish Theocracy of the OT, but today is left to governments to figure out. Christianity is ok with or without it, and a biblical case can be made for both. It is really up to the individual and the governments.

So basically there is no wrong or right when it comes to the death penalty? So where is the moral guidence in that? The whole point of Luther's reformation was to return to original scripture teachings, which the Catholic church was getting away from. So when the Bible offers conflicting accounts on a moral issue, it becomes a non-issue?

Dolphan7
02-13-2009, 12:23 PM
So basically there is no wrong or right when it comes to the death penalty? So where is the moral guidance in that? The whole point of Luther's reformation was to return to original scripture teachings, which the Catholic church was getting away from. So when the Bible offers conflicting accounts on a moral issue, it becomes a non-issue?It is up to the individual or the government to decide if capital punishment is ok for them or for the government. The point is that there be sufficient punishment for the crime. That can be death, or it can be life in prison, or some other sentence.

But that isn't a biblical conflict, but more freedom to choose and decide for oneself.

Marino613
02-13-2009, 02:13 PM
Religious views on the death penalty are varied that is for certain. Despite strong foundation in Buddhist Sutras that would condemn the use of the death penalty, Buddhist leaders have been known in history to justify it. Conversely, the Hebrew Bible is full of examples of requirement to kill transgressors of a variety of religious and civil regulations ranging from Sabbath violators to murderers, but Rabbinic Judaism which has been by far the mainstream interpretation of Judaism since the destruction of the second temple understood execution to be nearly a legal impossibility based on the extreme evidentiary requirements for putting someone to death.

ih8brady
02-13-2009, 05:55 PM
So if the morality of capital punishment is relative to local govt.'s, then how is that not moral relativism? Orthodoxy either says it can be permissable as punishment or forbidden. So, which is it?

Dolphan7
02-13-2009, 06:10 PM
So if the morality of capital punishment is relative to local govt.'s, then how is that not moral relativism? Orthodoxy either says it can be permissible as punishment or forbidden. So, which is it?Capital punishment is not mandated by the bible. It was certainly required under the OT Theocracy, but there is no more Theocracy. That Theocracy was the government, that form of government does not exist any longer.

It was a system of Justice, not a moral code.

Murder would be considered part of a moral code.

So it really has nothing to do with an absolute morality, therefore it allows the freedom to approve of it, or not.

It is kinda like drinking alcohol. The bible doesn't say you can't drink booze. Some do, some feel uncomfortable with it.

emeraldfin
02-14-2009, 07:41 AM
Capital punishment is not mandated by the bible. It was certainly required under the OT Theocracy, but there is no more Theocracy. That Theocracy was the government, that form of government does not exist any longer.

It was a system of Justice, not a moral code.

Murder would be considered part of a moral code.

So it really has nothing to do with an absolute morality, therefore it allows the freedom to approve of it, or not.

It is kinda like drinking alcohol. The bible doesn't say you can't drink booze. Some do, some feel uncomfortable with it.

You see here's my problem with that. Most people who believe in God also believe in natural law. Natural Law is founded on the principal that no law is actually a law unless it has moral value and that morality must be involved in the process of law-making. Jurisprudence and punishment go hand in hand, without one you dont have the other. So for a law to be morally right would that not mean that the punishment must be morally right also? Now you would claim that the Bible is the source of all morality, so if the Bible does'nt give a clear answer on capital punishment (which is a moral issue) then has God not failed mankind?

Also you cannot just pawn off capital punishment and compare it to drinking beer. Capital punishment is the killing of another individual, it cant be compared on going for a few drinks on a Saturday night. I am amazed you can not see the moral implications involved of killing another human for the sake of punishment.

Dolphan7
02-14-2009, 05:33 PM
You see here's my problem with that. Most people who believe in God also believe in natural law. Natural Law is founded on the principal that no law is actually a law unless it has moral value and that morality must be involved in the process of law-making. Jurisprudence and punishment go hand in hand, without one you dont have the other. So for a law to be morally right would that not mean that the punishment must be morally right also? Now you would claim that the Bible is the source of all morality, so if the Bible does'nt give a clear answer on capital punishment (which is a moral issue) then has God not failed mankind?

Also you cannot just pawn off capital punishment and compare it to drinking beer. Capital punishment is the killing of another individual, it cant be compared on going for a few drinks on a Saturday night. I am amazed you can not see the moral implications involved of killing another human for the sake of punishment.There is no doubt that morality is infused into lawmaking. And there also is no doubt that capital punishment is a moral issue for some people. But biblically it isn't. The crimes and transgressions that invoke capital punishment in the bible are certainly moral absolutes according to God, but the punishment for such crimes isn't really a moral issue but more a punishment, or a means of justice, for such crimes. See the difference? Everywhere we read in the bible it speaks of justice for those who are oppressed or victimized, or have broken one of God's laws, and we also see many scriptures that plead for a just punishment, make the punisment fit the crime. Now God has laid out the model for this already in the OT, and capital punishment is certainly one of the punishments for various crimes. It is the right thing to do in His eyes, and He is the authority on that. That doesn't mean that we must adhere to the same laws that governed the Jews in the OT, under a direct Theocracy with God Himself. We don't kill people today for adultery do we? So it isn't an absolute. The NT and the blood of Jesus allows us the freedom from those punishment for sin, as long as we accept and believe in Him and try to live our lives like him as best we can.

Does that make sense?

Blackocrates
02-15-2009, 05:13 PM
Does that make sense?

That doesn't make any sense at all. Christ taught us to treat others like we want to be treated. That only those that are without sin should cast the first stone. Do not judge others, etc. Christians should absolutely be against capital punishment. To believe otherwise is to not follow Christ. A true heart of a christian wouldn't want or advocate the death of another.

emeraldfin
02-16-2009, 08:18 AM
There is no doubt that morality is infused into lawmaking. And there also is no doubt that capital punishment is a moral issue for some people. But biblically it isn't. The crimes and transgressions that invoke capital punishment in the bible are certainly moral absolutes according to God, but the punishment for such crimes isn't really a moral issue but more a punishment, or a means of justice, for such crimes. See the difference? Everywhere we read in the bible it speaks of justice for those who are oppressed or victimized, or have broken one of God's laws, and we also see many scriptures that plead for a just punishment, make the punisment fit the crime. Now God has laid out the model for this already in the OT, and capital punishment is certainly one of the punishments for various crimes. It is the right thing to do in His eyes, and He is the authority on that. That doesn't mean that we must adhere to the same laws that governed the Jews in the OT, under a direct Theocracy with God Himself. We don't kill people today for adultery do we? So it isn't an absolute. The NT and the blood of Jesus allows us the freedom from those punishment for sin, as long as we accept and believe in Him and try to live our lives like him as best we can.

Does that make sense?

But then Jesus comes and says no to the OT way of thinking and preaches that we should forgive those who have wronged and not seek vengence. So for a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ how can the Protestant church which is meant to rely on grace and scripture then say we dont have a position on it, even though the one who was killed by capital punishment and was an innocent man, said differently. Same thing with divorce. Jesus was against divorce and yet the Protestant church allows it. Usuary is another issue that all Christian church's got away from.

Dolphan7
02-16-2009, 03:37 PM
That doesn't make any sense at all. Christ taught us to treat others like we want to be treated. That only those that are without sin should cast the first stone. Do not judge others, etc. Christians should absolutely be against capital punishment. To believe otherwise is to not follow Christ. A true heart of a christian wouldn't want or advocate the death of another.That's right....and who was Jesus referring to when he made these pronouncements? Was he talking about individuals and how we must relate to the people around us, or was he referring to governments and how they should administer justice? If you read the Gospels it is abundantly clear that Jesus was all about an individuals relationship with God, and our relationship with each other. Are we to seek vengeance ourselves? No, we are to use the proper authorities to resolve such matters, if we cannot resolve it peacefully first. Are we to administer justice ourselves (Judging)? No, we are to let the authorities handle that as per the laws of the land. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Capitol Punishment is very biblical. Jesus never condemned it. God sets governments in place for us so that there is some form of stability and protection within society. Titus 3:1 says that we are to obey the authorities put in place over us, as long as it isn't forcing one to disobey God.

To say that all Christians must be against Capitol Punishment really lacks the biblical basis to support such a conclusion. I believe it is up to the individual believer.

This Christian supports the right amount of punishment for whatever crime is committed, including the death penalty. I also can support life in prison as a suitable punishment in the absence of a capital punishment law.

Dolphan7
02-16-2009, 04:21 PM
But then Jesus comes and says no to the OT way of thinking and preaches that we should forgive those who have wronged and not seek vengence. So for a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ how can the Protestant church which is meant to rely on grace and scripture then say we dont have a position on it, even though the one who was killed by capital punishment and was an innocent man, said differently. Same thing with divorce. Jesus was against divorce and yet the Protestant church allows it. Usuary is another issue that all Christian church's got away from.TO be precise, Jesus didn't condemn the OT, he simply fulfilled it. The OT was the history of a people who no matter what they did, could never come into a right relationship with God in and of themselves. No matter how hard they tried, they just couldn't do it. The OT pointed to a savior who would be able to do it for them. That is Jesus. The OT was in full effect during Jesus time. Only upon his death did the OT means of salvation come to an end.

Yes Jesus did say we are not to seek our own vengeance, but that applies to individuals. Are we to believe that Jesus wouldn't allow a country to seek revenge on another nation that attacked it? No. It has nothing to do with governments and nations, but individuals seeking a right relationship with God. Yes we are to forgive our brothers who sin against us, but not without preconditions. Repentance is key in forgiveness.

The doctrine of grace is indeed what the Christian church is based on. But this doesn't mean that Christians are to be the doormats of society, wimpy Christians who are supposed to stand there and let people wail away on them. Not at all. Jesus many times was confronted by people who wanted to hurt him....did he let them? No he didn't. He found a way to avoid the situation, many times by walking away. Point is.....he didn't just sit there and let people wail away on him.

We have the right to self defense. If a man walks up to me and attempts to punch me, you can bet I will knock his *** on the ground. Now Jesus may admonish me and say that I should have simply sidestepped and grabbed the man's arm and put him in a hold or something....but he wouldn't (nor did he ever) tell me to just stand there and be a punching bag.

Probably one of the biggest misconceptions about Christians is that they are "supposed" to be this wimpy geeky type of person....and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Regarding the death penalty, if one wants to argue that Jesus is against it, all they have to do is provide the scripture where he says it, in context.

Blackocrates
02-16-2009, 08:41 PM
That's right....and who was Jesus referring to when he made these pronouncements? Was he talking about individuals and how we must relate to the people around us, or was he referring to governments and how they should administer justice? If you read the Gospels it is abundantly clear that Jesus was all about an individuals relationship with God, and our relationship with each other. Are we to seek vengeance ourselves? No, we are to use the proper authorities to resolve such matters, if we cannot resolve it peacefully first. Are we to administer justice ourselves (Judging)? No, we are to let the authorities handle that as per the laws of the land. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Capitol Punishment is very biblical. Jesus never condemned it. God sets governments in place for us so that there is some form of stability and protection within society. Titus 3:1 says that we are to obey the authorities put in place over us, as long as it isn't forcing one to disobey God.

To say that all Christians must be against Capitol Punishment really lacks the biblical basis to support such a conclusion. I believe it is up to the individual believer.

This Christian supports the right amount of punishment for whatever crime is committed, including the death penalty. I also can support life in prison as a suitable punishment in the absence of a capital punishment law.

There's plenty of biblical basis for being against the death penalty. All of Christs' teachings are about forgiveness, mercy and compassion. To be for the death penalty is to be against Christ. A person who claims to be a Christian and yet supports the killing of another (namely death penalty as we are talking about) outside of self preservation isn't a Christian at all. I believe Christians need to speak out against this and that is why I've chosen to respond to this thread.

You're trying to spin the bible to suit your own desire but you're butchering Christs' teachings while doing so.

You claim that abortion is murder but Christ never addressed it, you can't have it both ways.

I don't care about what a government does. I'm talking about what a professed Christian believes in. If somebody claims to be a Christian yet completely ignores Christ and focuses instead on the Old Testament, then they are not a Christian. They are worshippers of God and part of the bible, but they are not true followers of Christ. People need to speak the truth to Christian fundamentalist and show them where they have strayed.

Blackocrates
02-16-2009, 08:49 PM
TO be precise, Jesus didn't condemn the OT, he simply fulfilled it. The OT was the history of a people who no matter what they did, could never come into a right relationship with God in and of themselves. No matter how hard they tried, they just couldn't do it. The OT pointed to a savior who would be able to do it for them. That is Jesus. The OT was in full effect during Jesus time. Only upon his death did the OT means of salvation come to an end.

Yes Jesus did say we are not to seek our own vengeance, but that applies to individuals. Are we to believe that Jesus wouldn't allow a country to seek revenge on another nation that attacked it? No. It has nothing to do with governments and nations, but individuals seeking a right relationship with God. Yes we are to forgive our brothers who sin against us, but not without preconditions. Repentance is key in forgiveness.

The doctrine of grace is indeed what the Christian church is based on. But this doesn't mean that Christians are to be the doormats of society, wimpy Christians who are supposed to stand there and let people wail away on them. Not at all. Jesus many times was confronted by people who wanted to hurt him....did he let them? No he didn't. He found a way to avoid the situation, many times by walking away. Point is.....he didn't just sit there and let people wail away on him.

We have the right to self defense. If a man walks up to me and attempts to punch me, you can bet I will knock his *** on the ground. Now Jesus may admonish me and say that I should have simply sidestepped and grabbed the man's arm and put him in a hold or something....but he wouldn't (nor did he ever) tell me to just stand there and be a punching bag.

Probably one of the biggest misconceptions about Christians is that they are "supposed" to be this wimpy geeky type of person....and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Regarding the death penalty, if one wants to argue that Jesus is against it, all they have to do is provide the scripture where he says it, in context.

This is mostly strawman arguments. Nobody is saying you have to allow somebody to harm you. That's just silly. Plus, it has nothing to do with the topic of the death penalty.

Also, nobody is claiming we should be wimpy Christians. I'm advocating that we shouldn't be blood thirsty Christians.

You keep trying to separate government and individual but it doesn't work in our argument. We're discussing whether a Christian should be for or against the death penalty. We're talking about a Christian's heart/soul, not about the goings on of government.

I would like to add that because Christ didn't directly talk about each issue doesn't mean it wasn't covered. The reason he gave parables was so they we would learn the concept and apply the concept to numerous situations. He taught us to turn the other cheek and to forgive all, that is to be applied accross the board towards all transgressions.

Dolphan7
02-16-2009, 10:42 PM
There's plenty of biblical basis for being against the death penalty. All of Christs' teachings are about forgiveness, mercy and compassion. To be for the death penalty is to be against Christ. A person who claims to be a Christian and yet supports the killing of another (namely death penalty as we are talking about) outside of self preservation isn't a Christian at all. I believe Christians need to speak out against this and that is why I've chosen to respond to this thread.

You're trying to spin the bible to suit your own desire but you're butchering Christs' teachings while doing so.

You claim that abortion is murder but Christ never addressed it, you can't have it both ways.

I don't care about what a government does. I'm talking about what a professed Christian believes in. If somebody claims to be a Christian yet completely ignores Christ and focuses instead on the Old Testament, then they are not a Christian. They are worshippers of God and part of the bible, but they are not true followers of Christ. People need to speak the truth to Christian fundamentalist and show them where they have strayed.Well...it certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has accused me of twisting the bible.:rolleyes2:

If you are against the death penalty that is fine, but to tell me that I must be against it if I am to follow Jesus, then you must show me the biblical support of such a notion. So show me. Make your case.

I support a governments right to institute capital punishment for the most serious crimes. To be clear I don't support the taking of innocent life by governments or individuals, especially without due process.

GoonBoss
02-16-2009, 11:12 PM
This is mostly strawman arguments. Nobody is saying you have to allow somebody to harm you. That's just silly. Plus, it has nothing to do with the topic of the death penalty.

Also, nobody is claiming we should be wimpy Christians. I'm advocating that we shouldn't be blood thirsty Christians.

You keep trying to separate government and individual but it doesn't work in our argument. We're discussing whether a Christian should be for or against the death penalty. We're talking about a Christian's heart/soul, not about the goings on of government.

I would like to add that because Christ didn't directly talk about each issue doesn't mean it wasn't covered. The reason he gave parables was so they we would learn the concept and apply the concept to numerous situations. He taught us to turn the other cheek and to forgive all, that is to be applied accross the board towards all transgressions.

I do not claim to be a Christian any more, but I was one for the majority of my life. The Christian doctrine absolutely does not teach that there should be no death penalty. As a matter of fact, Christ repeatedly reenforced by deed that Matthew 22:21 in fact did did apply to accpetance of secular authority over things that concern the state. The welfare of all citizens is certainly the purview of the state. The death penalty elimintes the threat of persons that cannot or will not live in concert with the rest of the state.

If you claim that the state has no right to impose the penalty of death, then they also cannot impose a sentance of imprisonment, nor can a good Christian support the judgement of the state agasint somone who has wronged them. The state may take a life, but they cannot take a soul. All the state can do is terminate the earthly existance of a person. If you in fact argue that the state has no authority to impose a sentance of death, then a good Christian should not subjugate anything in any aspect of thier lives because the state has no authority at all.

You are correct to say that most of Christs teachings in the new testamat reflect a general tone of tolerance and forgivness. However, to say that the old testimate somehow does not apply to Christians somehow other than to take up space in the Bible is absurd in light of Mattew 5:17.
Christ is the end of the law, and, the beginning of the law. The alpha, and the omega. The law did not somehow completely cease to be. Christ brought the overall tone of grace to the law.

Noone can partake in grace unless they so choose. It is not a Christian's place to do anything other than render personal absolution to a person that has wronged them, as Christians are instructed to do. The punishment rendered by the state upon a person on this earth for crimes against society is the purview of the state, not the Christian. This is borne out by Exodus 21:23-25 Leviticus 24:18-20. Moses set down this law to protect person and property. It has been often perverted to suggest that means personal retaliation. It does not mean that. It serves as a guideline for judges.

Dolphan7
02-16-2009, 11:41 PM
This is mostly strawman arguments. Nobody is saying you have to allow somebody to harm you. That's just silly. Plus, it has nothing to do with the topic of the death penalty.

Also, nobody is claiming we should be wimpy Christians. I'm advocating that we shouldn't be blood thirsty Christians.

You keep trying to separate government and individual but it doesn't work in our argument. We're discussing whether a Christian should be for or against the death penalty. We're talking about a Christian's heart/soul, not about the goings on of government.

I would like to add that because Christ didn't directly talk about each issue doesn't mean it wasn't covered. The reason he gave parables was so they we would learn the concept and apply the concept to numerous situations. He taught us to turn the other cheek and to forgive all, that is to be applied accross the board towards all transgressions.I am jsut trying to clarify some misconceptions about Christians.

Regarding the first bolded part, there is a difference between a governments right to enact the death penalty as punishment for crimes committed against the government or society.......and our individual responsibility to our government and to our fellow man. It is ok for a government to enact laws and punishments, it is not ok for it's people to take the law into their own hands as Jesus was addressing in Mat 5:38-42.

Certainly Jesus was all about love and compassion and mercy, but Jesus was also about getting people right with God, and about justice, and he had no problem telling people they were going straight to hell if they didn't change their ways. Jesus was all about balance.

Regarding the second bolded part.

Mat 5:39 Who ever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

A slap was an insult. It meant the person was making this personal. Jesus warns us not to take it personally and not retaliate in like kind, thus the reference to eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth in verse 38. That was for judges in a court of law to administer the appropriate punishment for the crime, not to be used as a way to exact the right amount of revenge for those whom you feel have wronged you. It says nothing there about forgiving that person either. Jesus tells us that we should forgive 70 times 7, meaning unlimited, if the person repents, see Luke 17:3-4. They must repent. That doesn't mean you can't have a forgiving heart, but to tell someone you forgive them when they haven't even acknowledged their misdeed and asked for forgiveness makes no biblical sense. And it makes no sense that we are to forgive everyone everywhere, forgive all. It just adds to the misconception that Christians are doormats and wimps and no matter what you do to them, they will automatically forgive you without you asking. This isn't a biblical concept.

Mat 5:40 If anyone want s to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat too.

You are being sued, and you lost. Demonstrate your sincerity not only by paying what you owe, but to give a little extra to make up for the inconvenience.

Mat 5:41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

It was customary that a roman citizen or soldier could enlist one of the locals to help them carry their gear, but only for about a mile, thus the word force is used. Jesus says to demonstrate your good nature by not only walking the mile, but go one more mile.

Imagine the impression one leaves by doing these things as Jesus has outlined. It draws people closer to Him, which was Jesus whole point of His ministry - to get people connected to God in the right way not some Pharisitical way.

Dolphan7
02-16-2009, 11:45 PM
I do not claim to be a Christian any more, but I was one for the majority of my life. The Christian doctrine absolutely does not teach that there should be no death penalty. As a matter of fact, Christ repeatedly reenforced by deed that Matthew 22:21 in fact did did apply to accpetance of secular authority over things that concern the state. The welfare of all citizens is certainly the purview of the state. The death penalty elimintes the threat of persons that cannot or will not live in concert with the rest of the state.

If you claim that the state has no right to impose the penalty of death, then they also cannot impose a sentance of imprisonment, nor can a good Christian support the judgement of the state agasint somone who has wronged them. The state may take a life, but they cannot take a soul. All the state can do is terminate the earthly existance of a person. If you in fact argue that the state has no authority to impose a sentance of death, then a good Christian should not subjugate anything in any aspect of thier lives because the state has no authority at all.

You are correct to say that most of Christs teachings in the new testamat reflect a general tone of tolerance and forgivness. However, to say that the old testimate somehow does not apply to Christians somehow other than to take up space in the Bible is absurd in light of Mattew 5:17.
Christ is the end of the law, and, the beginning of the law. The alpha, and the omega. The law did not somehow completely cease to be. Christ brought the overall tone of grace to the law.

Noone can partake in grace unless they so choose. It is not a Christian's place to do anything other than render personal absolution to a person that has wronged them. The punishment rendered upon a person on this earth for crimes against society. This is borne out by Exodus 21:23-25 Leviticus 24:18-20. Moses set down this law to protect person and property. It has been often perverted to suggest that means personal retaliation. It does not mean that. It serves as a guideline for judges.You know the bible well.

Come back to the flock Brother!:up:

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
You know the bible well.

Come back to the flock Brother!:up:

:lol:

Blessing and a curse. I do know the bible fairly well. I had to cheat ang google the exact book/verse but that's all Mr. Vetter, my theoligy teacher speaking right there pretty much.

Sadly, Religion boils down to faith, of which I have none. I am familiar with the doctrine though.

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 12:42 AM
:lol:

Blessing and a curse. I do know the bible fairly well. I had to cheat ang google the exact book/verse but that's all Mr. Vetter, my theoligy teacher speaking right there pretty much.

Sadly, Religion boils down to faith, of which I have none. I am familiar with the doctrine though.That's too bad. The church could use a man like you.:(

Blackocrates
02-17-2009, 01:42 PM
Well...it certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has accused me of twisting the bible.:rolleyes2:

If you are against the death penalty that is fine, but to tell me that I must be against it if I am to follow Jesus, then you must show me the biblical support of such a notion. So show me. Make your case.

I support a governments right to institute capital punishment for the most serious crimes. To be clear I don't support the taking of innocent life by governments or individuals, especially without due process.

After rereading my posts, I came across too strong and I apologize. I stand by what I said though.

I'm not going to get in the bible and quote scripture but I have made my case biblically by mentioning what Christ taught. The golden rule, absolute forgiveness, etc. I don't have the verses but that's what I'm falling back on.

Like I said before, if you're looking for a direct quote from Christ where he talked about the death penalty, it's not there. Neither is it there for abortion and you call it murder without any direct biblical quote.

Blackocrates
02-17-2009, 01:48 PM
I do not claim to be a Christian any more, but I was one for the majority of my life. The Christian doctrine absolutely does not teach that there should be no death penalty. As a matter of fact, Christ repeatedly reenforced by deed that Matthew 22:21 in fact did did apply to accpetance of secular authority over things that concern the state. The welfare of all citizens is certainly the purview of the state. The death penalty elimintes the threat of persons that cannot or will not live in concert with the rest of the state.

If you claim that the state has no right to impose the penalty of death, then they also cannot impose a sentance of imprisonment, nor can a good Christian support the judgement of the state agasint somone who has wronged them. The state may take a life, but they cannot take a soul. All the state can do is terminate the earthly existance of a person. If you in fact argue that the state has no authority to impose a sentance of death, then a good Christian should not subjugate anything in any aspect of thier lives because the state has no authority at all.

You are correct to say that most of Christs teachings in the new testamat reflect a general tone of tolerance and forgivness. However, to say that the old testimate somehow does not apply to Christians somehow other than to take up space in the Bible is absurd in light of Mattew 5:17.
Christ is the end of the law, and, the beginning of the law. The alpha, and the omega. The law did not somehow completely cease to be. Christ brought the overall tone of grace to the law.

Noone can partake in grace unless they so choose. It is not a Christian's place to do anything other than render personal absolution to a person that has wronged them, as Christians are instructed to do. The punishment rendered by the state upon a person on this earth for crimes against society is the purview of the state, not the Christian. This is borne out by Exodus 21:23-25 Leviticus 24:18-20. Moses set down this law to protect person and property. It has been often perverted to suggest that means personal retaliation. It does not mean that. It serves as a guideline for judges.

This is a strawman argument again. If you look at my post, I never argued whether a government has a right to something or not. My argument rests solely on what I think a Christian should believe or have in their heart. I firmly believe that a Christian should be against the death penalty, not from a governments right, but from a true Christian belief. Christ was merciful, and thus Christians should be merciful.

A Christians primary source for wisdom and guidance should come directly from Christ. That is completely from the New Testament. In order to be Christ like, we must follow Christ. He should be our primary source, not the law, not Moses, not David, etc. A Christian can learn many things from the aforementioned but a Christian must follow Christ. That's why they claim to be a Christian.

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 02:40 PM
This is a strawman argument again. If you look at my post, I never argued whether a government has a right to something or not. My argument rests solely on what I think a Christian should believe or have in their heart. I firmly believe that a Christian should be against the death penalty, not from a governments right, but from a true Christian belief. Christ was merciful, and thus Christians should be merciful.

A Christians primary source for wisdom and guidance should come directly from Christ. That is completely from the New Testament. In order to be Christ like, we must follow Christ. He should be our primary source, not the law, not Moses, not David, etc. A Christian can learn many things from the aforementioned but a Christian must follow Christ. That's why they claim to be a Christian.

I fail to understand how what I stated is a strawman. It most certainly is not. To understand what a Christians role in this world is, you must understand what the role of all things of this world are, government included, since the penalty of death is thier responsibility.

If you are saying that you believe something in your heart of hearts, like, for instance, there should be no death penalty, that is fine. Just know that you have zero biblical evidence or standing to support this. The bible clearly states you don't. Reference Matthew 5:17. Christ did not come to abolish the law. He came to furfil it. He brought grace to the law, which was not there previously. This does not mean the law does not exist. The law clearly states that commensurate punishment for crimes against earthly society are completely justifiable, and, just.

Of course Christians should be merciful. Christians are clearly instructed to be merciful. Matthew 5:38-42 bears this out clearly. Christians are to bear any burden that can be borne. The problem with applying this theory on a purely literal basis, is that it extrapilates to a clearly unbiblical context, which is utter and complete subjugation of oneself financially and physically to the world.

God is the author of the law. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one. You can literally not follow one, or obey one, with out obeying the other. The entire bible is of god through the physical hand of man. Christ came to furfill the law, and provide grace for those that chose, and, choose to partake in it. It is the Christian's place to forgive anything that can be forgivin.....Which is pretty much everything, but it is not the Christian's duty to completely and meekly subjugate themselves to whatever injustice befalls them. There always have been, and, are earthly consequences to the body for wrongs done to other people. The spiritual consequences come later.

Blackocrates
02-17-2009, 04:09 PM
I fail to understand how what I stated is a strawman. It most certainly is not. To understand what a Christians role in this world is, you must understand what the role of all things of this world are, government included, since the penalty of death is thier responsibility.

If you are saying that you believe something in your heart of hearts, like, for instance, there should be no death penalty, that is fine. Just know that you have zero biblical evidence or standing to support this. The bible clearly states you don't. Reference Matthew 5:17. Christ did not come to abolish the law. He came to furfil it. He brought grace to the law, which was not there previously. This does not mean the law does not exist. The law clearly states that commensurate punishment for crimes against earthly society are completely justifiable, and, just.

Of course Christians should be merciful. Christians are clearly instructed to be merciful. Matthew 5:38-42 bears this out clearly. Christians are to bear any burden that can be borne. The problem with applying this theory on a purely literal basis, is that it extrapilates to a clearly unbiblical context, which is utter and complete subjugation of oneself financially and physically to the world.

God is the author of the law. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one. You can literally not follow one, or obey one, with out obeying the other. The entire bible is of god through the physical hand of man. Christ came to furfill the law, and provide grace for those that chose, and, choose to partake in it. It is the Christian's place to forgive anything that can be forgivin.....Which is pretty much everything, but it is not the Christian's duty to completely and meekly subjugate themselves to whatever injustice befalls them. There always have been, and, are earthly consequences to the body for wrongs done to other people. The spiritual consequences come later.

It's a strawman argument because I didn't make the argument about government, you did. You tried to give me a stance on an issue that I didn't take. You tried to change the issue.

I do have biblical backing, it's just up to you to see it or not. Matthew 5: 38-48. Matthew 7:1-12.

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 04:20 PM
After rereading my posts, I came across too strong and I apologize. I stand by what I said though.

I'm not going to get in the bible and quote scripture but I have made my case biblically by mentioning what Christ taught. The golden rule, absolute forgiveness, etc. I don't have the versuses but that's what I'm falling back on.

Like I said before, if you're looking for a direct quote from Christ where he talked about the death penalty, it's not there. Neither is it there for abortion and you call it murder without any direct biblical quote.That's ok, it is a good discussion to have.

You have not made your case, and your refusal to provide solid biblical support of your position is evidence of that. I strongly suggest that you learn a little more about exactly what Jesus was all about. And in addition to that you have been given solid biblical support against your position, yet you refuse to accept that. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Certainly Jesus didn't mention homosexuality specifically either, but are we to believe that he was ok with that? No, because we have to take the whole bible into account, both the OT and the NT. When you do that, as I strongly suggest that you do, you will see there is a strong case to be made that supports the death penalty. Did you know that in Jesus time, the punishment under Jewish law for murder was death by stoning? Jesus never condemns it, and in fact states that he is not here to abolish the OT, but to fulfill it. If that ins't an endorsement then I don't know what is.

You can't just take God the Son, and neglect what God that Father teaches. It is God the Father that is the ultimate authority. To follow Jesus is to follow God.



JN 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


JN 5:30 “ I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Now if you are against the death penalty, that is fine you are entitled to take that position. You have that freedom. It is not a matter of salvation, but one of conscience. We can agree to disagree and we both would be secure in our salvation.

emeraldfin
02-17-2009, 04:38 PM
I fail to understand how what I stated is a strawman. It most certainly is not. To understand what a Christians role in this world is, you must understand what the role of all things of this world are, government included, since the penalty of death is thier responsibility.

If you are saying that you believe something in your heart of hearts, like, for instance, there should be no death penalty, that is fine. Just know that you have zero biblical evidence or standing to support this. The bible clearly states you don't. Reference Matthew 5:17. Christ did not come to abolish the law. He came to furfil it. He brought grace to the law, which was not there previously. This does not mean the law does not exist. The law clearly states that commensurate punishment for crimes against earthly society are completely justifiable, and, just.

Of course Christians should be merciful. Christians are clearly instructed to be merciful. Matthew 5:38-42 bears this out clearly. Christians are to bear any burden that can be borne. The problem with applying this theory on a purely literal basis, is that it extrapilates to a clearly unbiblical context, which is utter and complete subjugation of oneself financially and physically to the world.

God is the author of the law. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one. You can literally not follow one, or obey one, with out obeying the other. The entire bible is of god through the physical hand of man. Christ came to furfill the law, and provide grace for those that chose, and, choose to partake in it. It is the Christian's place to forgive anything that can be forgivin.....Which is pretty much everything, but it is not the Christian's duty to completely and meekly subjugate themselves to whatever injustice befalls them. There always have been, and, are earthly consequences to the body for wrongs done to other people. The spiritual consequences come later.

Okay here's the problem for me. Ex 20: 2-17 the 5th commandment (6th for Protestants) 'You shall not kill'. There is noting what so ever mentioned about excusing that you shall kill in the name of punishment. Sermon on the Mount : 'Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, "thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of judgment". But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of judgment, and whosoever shall abuse his brother, shall be in danger of the council'. For me this basically says that even if you get angry you face judgement. So I'm struggling with the understanding how any Christian can support the death penalty when their is no exceptions made of when killing is understandable or acceptable.

Would get into this more but I'm short on time at the moment, but let me ask you Goon, what is the purpose of the death penalty in your opinion?

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 05:10 PM
Okay here's the problem for me. Ex 20: 2-17 the 5th commandment (6th for Protestants) 'You shall not kill'. There is noting what so ever mentioned about excusing that you shall kill in the name of punishment. Sermon on the Mount : 'Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, "thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of judgment". But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of judgment, and whosoever shall abuse his brother, shall be in danger of the council'. For me this basically says that even if you get angry you face judgement. So I'm struggling with the understanding how any Christian can support the death penalty when their is no exceptions made of when killing is understandable or acceptable.

Would get into this more but I'm short on time at the moment, but let me ask you Goon, what is the purpose of the death penalty in your opinion?In Exodus 20:13 the Jewish word for kill means murder. The commandment reads thou shall not commit murder, meaning a premeditated and deliberate act outside of the law.

And what about all the punishments for various sins in the OT, where the punishment is death?

God can't say don't kill, then turn around and say to kill. Makes no sense does it - if the word means kill. It makes much more sense if the word used is murder, and the word used for punishment is kill, or death.

The Jewish word for kill/murder in Exodus 20:13 is: Ratsach

Strongs 07523

to murder, slay, kill

(Qal) to murder, slay

premeditated
accidental
as avenger
slayer (intentional) (participle)




The Jewish word for kill in Leviticus 20:10 is: Muwth

Strongs 04191

to die, kill, have one executed

(Qal)

to die
to die (as penalty), be put to death
to die, perish (of a nation)
to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)




See the huge difference?

Blackocrates
02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
That's ok, it is a good discussion to have.

You have not made your case, and your refusal to provide solid biblical support of your position is evidence of that. I strongly suggest that you learn a little more about exactly what Jesus was all about. And in addition to that you have been given solid biblical support against your position, yet you refuse to accept that. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Certainly Jesus didn't mention homosexuality specifically either, but are we to believe that he was ok with that? No, because we have to take the whole bible into account, both the OT and the NT. When you do that, as I strongly suggest that you do, you will see there is a strong case to be made that supports the death penalty. Did you know that in Jesus time, the punishment under Jewish law for murder was death by stoning? Jesus never condemns it, and in fact states that he is not here to abolish the OT, but to fulfill it. If that ins't an endorsement then I don't know what is.

You can't just take God the Son, and neglect what God that Father teaches. It is God the Father that is the ultimate authority. To follow Jesus is to follow God.




Now if you are against the death penalty, that is fine you are entitled to take that position. You have that freedom. It is not a matter of salvation, but one of conscience. We can agree to disagree and we both would be secure in our salvation.

Hell, maybe I am wrong. I guess the verses I listed don't hold much weight anymore. If what you say is true then I don't really want any part of Jesus or God. I have been losing my faith, I'm more agnostic than anything today. I've been weighing this a lot in the last year and it seems that I'm hanging by a thread in the faith department.

I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine that is a staunchly conservative Christian and his argument, which is similar to yours, really moved me away from God.

The only thing that is holding me back from not believing in God is the fact that it's something that I have always believed. It's hard to shrug off a lifetime belief system. Luckily, I'm able to do it but in a more drawn out fashion.

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 05:30 PM
Okay here's the problem for me. Ex 20: 2-17 the 5th commandment (6th for Protestants) 'You shall not kill'. There is noting what so ever mentioned about excusing that you shall kill in the name of punishment. Sermon on the Mount : 'Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, "thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of judgment". But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of judgment, and whosoever shall abuse his brother, shall be in danger of the council'. For me this basically says that even if you get angry you face judgement. So I'm struggling with the understanding how any Christian can support the death penalty when their is no exceptions made of when killing is understandable or acceptable.

Would get into this more but I'm short on time at the moment, but let me ask you Goon, what is the purpose of the death penalty in your opinion?

The good thing about a messageboard is there is always time when you can make it. Get back to this whenever you like.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

This has been one that lots of people have struggled with, but for the life of me I can't understand why. If you take this in context with the rest of the bible, which is all of God, the meaning is pretty clear. "Thou Shalt Not Murder."

To my belief based on the whole of the bible, this commandment must be juxtaposed with the law as set forth from God, to Moses, just as the commandments were. "Murder" is defined as an act of premedetation to kill another person as an act of personal will. This is what the many Jews (includeing many Pharasis) attempted to apply to the law (An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth). Thier reasoning being that if it is in the law, then, that is the law. This is not the case. The law was a set of guidelines for judges, not a tool for personal vengange.

The way this commandment applies, as shown if you take all of the bible in context is that it is the right and responsibility of wise judges to hand down punishments commensurate with offenses. While theft would not warrent the death penalty, the takeing of another person or person's life as an individual act renders the offender's life forfit as well. This is for the judges, as appointed by society to descide, not an individual.

If we were to take every word of the bible literally, there would be lots of things to take out of context. In Matthew 5:17 Christ in one fell swoop explains the entireity of the concept of grace. Grace does not abolish the law. It furfills it. Prior to this, the only way one could hope to gain salvation was strict obidience to the law. Once Jesus came, Grace came with him. Law and common sense did not suddenly take a holliday though.

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 05:33 PM
Hell, maybe I am wrong. I guess the verses I listed don't hold much weight anymore. If what you say is true then I don't really want any part of Jesus or God. I have been losing my faith, I'm more agnostic than anything today. I've been weighing this a lot in the last year and it seems that I'm hanging by a thread in the faith department.

I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine that is a staunchly conservative Christian and his argument, which is similar to yours, really moved me away from God.

The only thing that is holding me back from not believing in God is the fact that it's something that I have always believed. It's hard to shrug off a lifetime belief system. Luckily, I'm able to do it but in a more drawn out fashion.So you are rejecting God because of ...what....exactly?

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 05:44 PM
Hell, maybe I am wrong. I guess the verses I listed don't hold much weight anymore. If what you say is true then I don't really want any part of Jesus or God. I have been losing my faith, I'm more agnostic than anything today. I've been weighing this a lot in the last year and it seems that I'm hanging by a thread in the faith department.

I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine that is a staunchly conservative Christian and his argument, which is similar to yours, really moved me away from God.

The only thing that is holding me back from not believing in God is the fact that it's something that I have always believed. It's hard to shrug off a lifetime belief system. Luckily, I'm able to do it but in a more drawn out fashion.

Honestly it sounds to me like you simply are cherry picking beliefs. All the verses of the bible are of God. That is why you simply can't ignore the bible in it's entirety. You mention the golden rule. In the KJV Matthew 7:12 states


Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

This again refers back to the fact that Matthew 5:17 states that Christ came to furfil the law.

I honsetly don't understand how you can't square the concept of grace and law.

BobDole
02-17-2009, 05:52 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?_r=1

Indulgences anyone?:lol:

Thank God for Martin Luther. Without the Protestant Reformation, we would have the Christian Church represented today by the Catholic Church, utterly lost and Apostate. This Christian wouldn't be a Christian if the Catholic church were the only game in town.

i usually don't come in here but i like this thread. the irish probably wouldn't agree with that - protestantism came to ireland via england for the sole purpose of subjugating them and making those 'pesky' irish easier to rule. thousands upon thousands of catholic landowners were removed from their homes - where they had lived for generations - and their homes and land given to protestants. many of them would even cut off their hands (my family included) and leave it on their land to symbolize that would always be their home. started by henry, continued by elizabeth, solidified by cromwell. its easier to take over a country when the people are fighting amongst themselves. there's still a major divide b/n catholics and protestants in ireland (duh) b/c the catholics still want the land back that generations of their family had lived. i will never understand how a true irishman can take the side of the prods.

Blackocrates
02-17-2009, 05:54 PM
So you are rejecting God because of ...what....exactly?

It's hard to put my finger on it, it's been happening slowly for a long time. It's partially that I find myself disagreeing with the majority of christians on many issues. I have a certain belief in God and Christ, yet the vast majority seems to disagree with me. Over time it tends to show that I'm the one wrong and not the majority. The God that I used to/do believe in is greatly different from what majority of American christians believe in.

Learning more and more about science, which pokes massive holes in what many christians believe.

Realizing that I almost exclusively agree with agnostics on most issues.

Seeing how faith and Christianity is manipulated. This I've always witnessed but was able to chalk it up to man failing and exclude God. The way people pick and choose what to believe in the bible is exhausting. To me it shows that nobody is correct.

I was born into my faith. I became saved at an early age 12. I was never truly given a chance to explore any other faiths or no faith at all. When I look back at the people I grew up with, preacher, family, etc. I don't respect their intellect. They're wrong more times than they are right. Which has lead me to believe that what I have been taught is wrong.

All of these things have slowly chipped away at my faith and it has lead me to believe that this is all made up by man for man.

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 05:55 PM
It's a strawman argument because I didn't make the argument about government, you did. You tried to give me a stance on an issue that I didn't take. You tried to change the issue.

I do have biblical backing, it's just up to you to see it or not. Matthew 5: 38-48. Matthew 7:1-12.

You are talking abou the death penalty. The death penalty is of, for, and by the state. It is that which is Ceasers. It's not a strawman. You have to understand that, like it or not, Christians are of this earth and, it's various societies. Regardless, I'm fine takeing government completely out of the equasion.



Therefore all things whatever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


Matthew 7:12.

This is simply Christ renforceing that if you apply this rule to your personal dealings, you should be good to go in general. This, though, is not the end all be all. You cannot reach heaven by your deeds. You can only gain salvation through grace. It is the only way. If you don't want to be hit, don't hit anyone. If you hit someone (Battery) you should expect that you will be battered in summary judgement. Barring battery, confinement. This judgement is not for you to make and carry out. It is for the courts on earth, and, god in heaven. Same goes with all crimes up to and includeing muder.

Blackocrates
02-17-2009, 05:59 PM
Honestly it sounds to me like you simply are cherry picking beliefs. All the verses of the bible are of God. That is why you simply can't ignore the bible in it's entirety. You mention the golden rule. In the KJV Matthew 7:12 states



This again refers back to the fact that Matthew 5:17 states that Christ came to furfil the law.

I honsetly don't understand how you can't square the concept of grace and law.

Wouldn't the same go for you or just about everybody? When you say law do you mean the ten commandments or all of the laws in the old testament. Am I really committing a sin when I eat shrimp? The picking and choosing goes both ways.

If Christ has taught us to always forgive and to treat others like we want to be treated then how can a christian with that belief agree with the death penalty? It doesn't square with me. I don't want to be killed so I don't want anybody killing anybody else, whether it be an individual or a government.

Blackocrates
02-17-2009, 06:03 PM
You are talking abou the death penalty. The death penalty is of, for, and by the state. It is that which is Ceasers. It's not a strawman. You have to understand that, like it or not, Christians are of this earth and, it's various societies. Regardless, I'm fine takeing government completely out of the equasion.



Matthew 7:12.

This is simply Christ renforceing that if you apply this rule to your personal dealings, you should be good to go in general. This, though, is not the end all be all. You cannot reach heaven by your deeds. You can only gain salvation through grace. It is the only way. If you don't want to be hit, don't hit anyone. If you hit someone (Battery) you should expect that you will be battered in summary judgement. Barring battery, confinement. This judgement is not for you to make and carry out. It is for the courts on earth, and, god in heaven. Same goes with all crimes up to and includeing muder.

I was talking about the heart of a christian and what a christian should believe towards the death penalty. You are the one that tried to bend the argument with regards to whether a government has the right or not.

I don't disagree with that. I believe a government has the right to do that, it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I also believe the government has given us the right to abortion, yet many christians call it murder. To me that's cherry picking, I think everybody cherry picks.

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 06:04 PM
It's hard to put my finger on it, it's been happening slowly for a long time. It's partially that I find myself disagreeing with the majority of christians on many issues. I have a certain belief in God and Christ, yet the vast majority seems to disagree with me. Over time it tends to show that I'm the one wrong and not the majority. The God that I used to/do believe in is greatly different from what majority of American christians believe in.

Learning more and more about science, which pokes massive holes in what many christians believe.

Realizing that I almost exclusively agree with agnostics on most issues.

Seeing how faith and Christianity is manipulated. This I've always witnessed but was able to chalk it up to man failing and exclude God. The way people pick and choose what to believe in the bible is exhausting. To me it shows that nobody is correct.

I was born into my faith. I became saved at an early age 12. I was never truly given a chance to explore any other faiths or no faith at all. When I look back at the people I grew up with, preacher, family, etc. I don't respect their intellect. They're wrong more times than they are right. Which has lead me to believe that what I have been taught is wrong.

All of these things have slowly chipped away at my faith and it has lead me to believe that this is all made up by man for man.

This is largely why I cannot square my personal beliefs, and what I think is right and wrong with biblical beliefs and the concept of a just and loveing god. I am not trying to argue with you about what is and isn't wrong. I am simply telling you what the theoligy is based on the word of God as it is passed down to man.

There are many religions that claim to be Christian, but completely see things differently. The Branch Davidians claimed to be Christians. Mennonites/The Bretheran (Of which most of my family is) rejected me out of hand when I joined the Army, because they believe that Christians are not under the authority of any earthly government, and that killing or harming another is always wrong, no matter what the circumstance. If you interpret what you are saying literally, the Mennonite belief of complete non-violence towards your fellow man, no matter what is the only way.

I have come to believe in a benevolant agent of some sort that is responsible for the formation of the world and everything in it to a degree, and the concept of "Do unto others". Past that, I will not let my judgement of right and wrong be governed by a text that I feel may or may not be correct.

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 06:12 PM
I was talking about the heart of a christian and what a christian should believe towards the death penalty. You are the one that tried to bend the argument with regards to whether a government has the right or not.

I don't disagree with that. I believe a government has the right to do that, it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I also believe the government has given us the right to abortion, yet many christians call it murder. To me that's cherry picking, I think everybody cherry picks.

If you believe that the heart of a Christian cannot suppor tthe death penalty and still be a true heart, you are ignoreing the teachings of Christ. Christ teaches the law and grace. The law did not cease to when Christ came. If you choose to believe the death penalty is wrong, that's fine. There is nothing in the bible that says you can't believe that. There is nothing in Christs deeds that say it is wrong to believe that.

The simple fact is that the death penalty squares right up with the bible and Christ, just as being confined for theft does. That's why I'm saying you cherry picked. You can believe what you like, but just understand the word of god states contrary to what you believe.

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 06:25 PM
Wouldn't the same go for you or just about everybody? When you say law do you mean the ten commandments or all of the laws in the old testament. Am I really committing a sin when I eat shrimp? The picking and choosing goes both ways.

If Christ has taught us to always forgive and to treat others like we want to be treated then how can a christian with that belief agree with the death penalty? It doesn't square with me. I don't want to be killed so I don't want anybody killing anybody else, whether it be an individual or a government.

I mean all of the laws. As far as the consumption of various foods, these laws were laid down because those foods can, literally kill you in all sorts of nasty ways if not properly prepared. In the days before grace, a scholor of the law would say "Yes". Eating shrimp is a sin. You would then have to engage in an act of contrition as prescribed by Pharisies in order to gain salvation. I believe eating shrimp is not a sin. In the purest sense of the term, you could say I'm cherry picking, so I'll conceed your point on that......What I'd submit in return is you are compareing the concept of the consumption of a food to the takeing of a life. Remember the concept of the guidelines of commensurate judgement. IF eating Shrimp is a sin "I'm sorry" should probably do. If murder is a sin, then, forefiting your life will do.

Would you kill someone who breaks into your house with the intent of killing you and your family? I know I would. This, in the strictest sense of the concept of not killing anyone would put me in violation. However, what is the just punishment for me defending myself and my family? The concept of commensurate punishment would say, IMO, that I took that life with complete justification.

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 08:04 PM
Wouldn't the same go for you or just about everybody? When you say law do you mean the ten commandments or all of the laws in the old testament. Am I really committing a sin when I eat shrimp? The picking and choosing goes both ways.

If Christ has taught us to always forgive and to treat others like we want to be treated then how can a christian with that belief agree with the death penalty? It doesn't square with me. I don't want to be killed so I don't want anybody killing anybody else, whether it be an individual or a government.But Christ didn't teach us to "always" forgive. He taught us that if the person repents and asks forgiveness, then forgive them, just as when we accept Jesus and repent from our sins, and ask Him for forgiveness, then God forgives us. Same principle.

God doesn't forgive us our sins, and allow us into heaven, without us first repenting of our sins, accepting His Son Jesus, whose death paid the price for us in full on the cross, which is the salvation by Grace.

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 08:11 PM
It's hard to put my finger on it, it's been happening slowly for a long time. It's partially that I find myself disagreeing with the majority of christians on many issues. I have a certain belief in God and Christ, yet the vast majority seems to disagree with me. Over time it tends to show that I'm the one wrong and not the majority. The God that I used to/do believe in is greatly different from what majority of American christians believe in.

Learning more and more about science, which pokes massive holes in what many christians believe.

Realizing that I almost exclusively agree with agnostics on most issues.

Seeing how faith and Christianity is manipulated. This I've always witnessed but was able to chalk it up to man failing and exclude God. The way people pick and choose what to believe in the bible is exhausting. To me it shows that nobody is correct.

I was born into my faith. I became saved at an early age 12. I was never truly given a chance to explore any other faiths or no faith at all. When I look back at the people I grew up with, preacher, family, etc. I don't respect their intellect. They're wrong more times than they are right. Which has lead me to believe that what I have been taught is wrong.

All of these things have slowly chipped away at my faith and it has lead me to believe that this is all made up by man for man.Brother, if you are going to reject God, please know and understand what you are rejecting, and not some illconceived ideas of what you thought God is or how He should be, or how believers should live.

I suggest you get an accurate view of what the bible says about God, and Jesus, and I guarantee that your belief will come back as it probably isn't as far out of wack as you think it is. I think you owe it to yourself to do this. You are risking a great deal. Jesus said it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It doesn't matter what you or I think. What matters is God is real and true and the end of days will come no matter what we think.

:)

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 08:18 PM
I mean all of the laws. As far as the consumption of various foods, these laws were laid down because those foods can, literally kill you in all sorts of nasty ways if not properly prepared. In the days before grace, a scholor of the law would say "Yes". Eating shrimp is a sin. You would then have to engage in an act of contrition as prescribed by Pharisies in order to gain salvation. I believe eating shrimp is not a sin. In the purest sense of the term, you could say I'm cherry picking, so I'll conceed your point on that......What I'd submit in return is you are compareing the concept of the consumption of a food to the takeing of a life. Remember the concept of the guidelines of commensurate judgement. IF eating Shrimp is a sin "I'm sorry" should probably do. If murder is a sin, then, forefiting your life will do.

Would you kill someone who breaks into your house with the intent of killing you and your family? I know I would. This, in the strictest sense of the concept of not killing anyone would put me in violation. However, what is the just punishment for me defending myself and my family? The concept of commensurate punishment would say, IMO, that I took that life with complete justification.

Dietary rules was Gods way of saying that there really is no way for you guys to ver be good enough to atone for your sins. That plus he wanted to keep the blood lines pure and disease free from Adm to Noah to Jesus for the birth of the Savior which is Jesus.

Besides Jesus tells us that what comes out of the mouth is what defiles a man, not what goes in.


MT 15:16 Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also?
MT 15:17 “Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
MT 15:18 “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
MT 15:19 “ For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
MT 15:20 “These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”



Eat up baby! :up:

GoonBoss
02-17-2009, 08:19 PM
But Christ didn't teach us to "always" forgive. He taught us that if the person repents and asks forgiveness, then forgive them, just as when we accept Jesus and repent from our sins, and ask Him for forgiveness, then God forgives us. Same principle.

God doesn't forgive us our sins, and allow us into heaven, without us first repenting of our sins, accepting His Son Jesus, whose death paid the price for us in full on the cross, which is the salvation by Grace.

Actually christ did teach to always forgive. "Bear what can be borne" which would mean until death. There is not burden that is unbearable. Christians are bound to forgive by scripture. Individual forgivness does not trump punishment under the law, however. True forgivness, the only forgivness that matters is grace, which may only be obtained when asked for, and, may only be provided by god.

Dolphan7
02-17-2009, 11:20 PM
Actually christ did teach to always forgive. "Bear what can be borne" which would mean until death. There is not burden that is unbearable. Christians are bound to forgive by scripture. Individual forgivness does not trump punishment under the law, however. True forgivness, the only forgivness that matters is grace, which may only be obtained when asked for, and, may only be provided by god.We are to always forgive when the conditions have been met for that forgiveness. Repentance of the transgressor is key as I have pointed out in a previous post. In other words when we are asked for forgiveness we are to give it, and not withhold it. I think that is what you mean.

Think about it.

A man murders your daughter, does awefull things to her before he kills her. He is caught, and before you could kill him yourself, and stands trial. He pleads not guilty, mocks you and your family, shows no remorse, and is dogging you with his eyes while you are in the courtroom. He is found guilty.

Now you the judge gives you an opportunity at sentencing to speak your peace.

You going to look at that unremorsefull man, who doesn't give a rip about what he did or for you and your family....and tell him "I forgive you"?

GoonBoss
02-18-2009, 01:20 AM
We are to always forgive when the conditions have been met for that forgiveness. Repentance of the transgressor is key as I have pointed out in a previous post. In other words when we are asked for forgiveness we are to give it, and not withhold it. I think that is what you mean.

Think about it.

A man murders your daughter, does awefull things to her before he kills her. He is caught, and before you could kill him yourself, and stands trial. He pleads not guilty, mocks you and your family, shows no remorse, and is dogging you with his eyes while you are in the courtroom. He is found guilty.

Now you the judge gives you an opportunity at sentencing to speak your peace.

You going to look at that unremorsefull man, who doesn't give a rip about what he did or for you and your family....and tell him "I forgive you"?

That would be what the bible commands of Christians. Forgivness. Your transgressor does not owe you anything. You owe him forgivness. I would forgive the man that entered my house to do such a thing (as you mention above) after I emptied a magazine from my AR into his chest too. He is forgiven. He is also dead.

The only party your transgressor owes remorse to is god. Not you. You are thinking, but you are thinking in the context of man, which is corrupt.



Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.


Romans 12:20

Dolphan7
02-18-2009, 02:38 PM
That would be what the bible commands of Christians. Forgivness. Your transgressor does not owe you anything. You owe him forgivness. I would forgive the man that entered my house to do such a thing (as you mention above) after I emptied a magazine from my AR into his chest too. He is forgiven. He is also dead.

The only party your transgressor owes remorse to is god. Not you. You are thinking, but you are thinking in the context of man, which is corrupt.



Romans 12:20

Well Brother, you are a better man than I to forgive an unrepentant murderer, but this is not a biblical concept.

Jesus models forgiveness after the forgiveness God gives us when we get right with Him. That model always includes preconditions ;Belief in Jesus (John 1:12;14:6), Confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior (Mat 10:32); asking for forgiveness and repenting of our sins (Mark 1:15, Acts 17:30-31, Mark 2:10-11, John 14:4), and being baptized (Acts 2:38,39, Mat 28:19).

Jesus tells us to forgive when repentance is shown (Luke 17:3). We are always to forgive when the person continually repents. The two go hand in hand. Repent, then Forgiveness.


LK 17:3 “ Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
LK 17:4 “And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

Now you may be a strong enough man to look that murderer in the eyes and say I forgive you, but to place that burden on those who would not be able to do that, and would torment themselves day and night thinking that is what God wants them to do is simply more than what God requires of them. It is no wonder people shun Christianity when they see stuff like that.

It makes no sense to forgive someone who steals from you that shows no repentance, nor seeks to apologize showing the error of their ways, nor ask for your forgiveness....and to forgive that person openly simply says to that person, "Hey this is cool, I can keep doing what I have done, this bozo doesn't seem to care". That's not what Jesus or God wants that person to think. They want that person to understand their wrong doing, turn away from it, and try to make up for their crime (Mat 5:40).

It is interesting you quote Romans 12:20. This is talking about not taking the law into your own hands. Read verse 19. And it doesn't mention anything about forgiving them does it?

LouPhinFan
02-21-2009, 11:41 PM
The main thing everyone seems to be forgetting is this:

Your particular belief in the death penalty, in the end, is not going to impact your salvation.

Blackocrates
03-15-2009, 05:16 PM
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

This is the exact point I was trying to make. This lady states it perfectly and gives context to it. It's quite long but my point is made within the first 13 minutes of the clip.

Locke
03-16-2009, 10:47 AM
:snack:

Blackocrates
03-16-2009, 12:54 PM
:snack:

:lol:

I think the thread is dead, nothing more to see. I just came across this clip on Bill Moyers and the lady states perfectly what I believe. I thought I would post it because she states it better than me.

PhinPhan1227
03-16-2009, 06:26 PM
That doesn't make any sense at all. Christ taught us to treat others like we want to be treated. That only those that are without sin should cast the first stone. Do not judge others, etc. Christians should absolutely be against capital punishment. To believe otherwise is to not follow Christ. A true heart of a christian wouldn't want or advocate the death of another.

By that reasoning we should have no system of justice at all since no man is without sin, and therefore no man should judge another. By that reasoning no system of ;aws imposed by man can be followed by those who follow Christ.

Then again, that reasoning ignores the "leave unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's" line.

PhinPhan1227
03-16-2009, 06:33 PM
Last time I checked, we have a nation which is not allowed to pass laws based solely on any one religion. Therefore it is not permissable to base the death penalty on whether Christianity is for or against it.

Blackocrates
03-16-2009, 10:48 PM
By that reasoning we should have no system of justice at all since no man is without sin, and therefore no man should judge another. By that reasoning no system of ;aws imposed by man can be followed by those who follow Christ.

Then again, that reasoning ignores the "leave unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's" line.

It took you a month to come up with that. :confused: Again, you are switching issues around. I was strictly talking about the individual, the christian individual. I believe a christian's belief should be above that of a government.

Dolphan7
03-17-2009, 12:01 AM
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

This is the exact point I was trying to make. This lady states it perfectly and gives context to it. It's quite long but my point is made within the first 13 minutes of the clip.You can't argue with her call for compassion. This world needs more compassion no doubt.

But after her initial talk of her compassion call ......she......trying to be nice here......loses it as far as any credible source for biblical exegesis.

But she speaks well and is well educated... and writes a lot of books. Good for her.

PhinPhan1227
03-17-2009, 03:58 PM
It took you a month to come up with that. :confused: Again, you are switching issues around. I was strictly talking about the individual, the christian individual. I believe a christians beliefs should be above that of a government.

Fish, why do you feel the need to turn everything personal? I just took a look at this thread for the first time before responding. But back to the point, Give unto Caesar that which is Caesars. I live in America. America's laws are not and cannot be, based on religion. Therefore, the death penalty cannot be decided based on religion. It is a secular law which cannot be determined based on religious views. If the individual doesn't agree with the death penalty, they are excused from jury duty on those cases which might end in the death penalty.

None of which changes the fact that if you are going to hang your hat on this statement in the carrying out of the law...

"That only those that are without sin should cast the first stone. Do not judge others, etc."

...than no christian should ever sit on a jury for any crime, because that duty requires the judgement of others. The simple fact is that you are mixing religious with secular when both the secular law and religious law say otherwise.

Blackocrates
03-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Fish, why do you feel the need to turn everything personal? I just took a look at this thread for the first time before responding. But back to the point, Give unto Caesar that which is Caesars. I live in America. America's laws are not and cannot be, based on religion. Therefore, the death penalty cannot be decided based on religion. It is a secular law which cannot be determined based on religious views. If the individual doesn't agree with the death penalty, they are excused from jury duty on those cases which might end in the death penalty.

None of which changes the fact that if you are going to hang your hat on this statement in the carrying out of the law...

"That only those that are without sin should cast the first stone. Do not judge others, etc."

...than no christian should ever sit on a jury for any crime, because that duty requires the judgement of others. The simple fact is that you are mixing religious with secular when both the secular law and religious law say otherwise.

Then don't quote me if you want to make a separate unrelated point. You consistently either take my words out of context or you completely don't understand what I'm saying. You rarely ever stay on point. For some reason you decided to quote me and then proceeded to talk about something I wasn't talking about. If you want to throw your two cents out there just make a comment, you don't have to quote somebody for no apparent reason. When you quote me I assume you are talking to me.

PhinPhan1227
03-18-2009, 03:37 AM
Then don't quote me if you want to make a separate unrelated point. You consistently either take my words out of context or you completely don't understand what I'm saying. You rarely ever stay on point. For some reason you decided to quote me and then proceeded to talk about something I wasn't talking about. If you want to throw your two cents out there just make a comment, you don't have to quote somebody for no apparent reason. When you quote me I assume you are talking to me.

Jesus man, I quoted you because I disagreed with what you said. It's not a seperate point. You declared that the Death Penalty should be off the table to christians because Jesus said not to judge your fellow man. I pointed out that going by that logic, no Christian should be able to take part in ANY aspect of our justice system because ALL of it requires sitting in judgement. How is that NOT on point? I showed the repurcussions of your statement. Is that not allowed? This would be a very boring forum if we all had to take each others posts as gospel. Pardon the pun. :D I attacked the logic of your post Fish, you attacked me personally.

Blackocrates
03-18-2009, 03:59 PM
Jesus man, I quoted you because I disagreed with what you said. It's not a seperate point. You declared that the Death Penalty should be off the table to christians because Jesus said not to judge your fellow man. I pointed out that going by that logic, no Christian should be able to take part in ANY aspect of our justice system because ALL of it requires sitting in judgement. How is that NOT on point? I showed the repurcussions of your statement. Is that not allowed? This would be a very boring forum if we all had to take each others posts as gospel. Pardon the pun. :D I attacked the logic of your post Fish, you attacked me personally.

I didn't attack you, you're just being sensitive. I listed a few biblical references because they asked for it. I mostly rested my case on the "golden rule". I think it's common sense to be able to think of each governmental law separately, especially the punishment. Again, you tried to paint my opinion in an extreme point of view, this is something you regularly do. I never said nobody should go unpunished. I said that a christian should have compassion and not advocate the killing of another as punishment for their wrong doings. There are more humane ways to punish criminals. I thought my opinion was quite clear, but you painted it in a different way.

You can't see the forrest for the trees. I suggest you go back and read the entire thread again, and watch the link I posted. If you still think I was saying no christian should judge anyone against any law then that's your opinion but you couldn't be farther from the truth. If you wanted to have an honest debate you wouldn't be constantly trying to play a game of "gotcha".

PhinPhan1227
03-20-2009, 06:47 PM
I didn't attack you, you're just being sensitive. I listed a few biblical references because they asked for it. I mostly rested my case on the "golden rule". I think it's common sense to be able to think of each governmental law separately, especially the punishment. Again, you tried to paint my opinion in an extreme point of view, this is something you regularly do. I never said nobody should go unpunished. I said that a christian should have compassion and not advocate the killing of another as punishment for their wrong doings. There are more humane ways to punish criminals. I thought my opinion was quite clear, but you painted it in a different way.

You can't see the forrest for the trees. I suggest you go back and read the entire thread again, and watch the link I posted. If you still think I was saying no christian should judge anyone against any law then that's your opinion but you couldn't be farther from the truth. If you wanted to have an honest debate you wouldn't be constantly trying to play a game of "gotcha".

You started your response with, "it took you a month to come up with that?"

That's attacking me, not the post. I'm not being sensitive, I'm just pointing it out for future reference should you accuse me of making a personal attack.

As to the rest, it's not my fault if you post things you don't mean.

"That only those that are without sin should cast the first stone. Do not judge others, etc"

You posted "do not judge others". I didn't post that for you. To the best of my knowledge, nobody is holding a gun to your head when you type. If you didn't MEAN "do not judge others", than don't POST "do not judge others". Because the logical ramifications of your post are that if a Christian is true to his faith, than he should not sit in judgement of others. I'm not twisting your words, I am only holding you accountable to them.

As for the "forest for the trees", I understand what you were trying to say in the rest of the thread. But if you make a silly comment in one post, why shouldn't you be called on it? Do you think anyone here believes that you wouldn't do the exact same thing when and if I make an illogical comment? Please Fish.