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Blackocrates
02-19-2009, 10:44 PM
D7, I was wondering what biblical backing do you use to claim abortion is wrong, and that it is murder? I was wondering about this from our death penalty thread. You stated that because Christ didn't speak out against the death penalty and because the government implimented it, that it was okay. Wouldn't the same reasoning be used for abortion?

Dolphan7
02-20-2009, 12:30 PM
D7, I was wondering what biblical backing do you use to claim abortion is wrong, and that it is murder? I was wondering about this from our death penalty thread. You stated that because Christ didn't speak out against the death penalty and because the government implimented it, that it was okay. Wouldn't the same reasoning be used for abortion?Christ didn't condemn it, and the government, not the Romans, but the Jewish government used it because they were told to by God in the OT. That last part is very key.

Anyway....here is a very good biblical position on abortion.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-abortioninthebible.html?zoom_highlight=abortion

Blackocrates
02-20-2009, 02:51 PM
Christ didn't condemn it, and the government, not the Romans, but the Jewish government used it because they were told to by God in the OT. That last part is very key.

Anyway....here is a very good biblical position on abortion.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-abortioninthebible.html?zoom_highlight=abortion

I'm confused by your first sentence. Are you saying that Christ didn't condemn abortion, nor did he condemn the government? Are you saying that the jewish government used abortion because they were told to?

Dolphan7
02-20-2009, 03:14 PM
I'm confused by your first sentence. Are you saying that Christ didn't condemn abortion, nor did he condemn the government? Are you saying that the jewish government used abortion because they were told to?
I am sorry, that is confusing isn't it?

I was referring to the subject of the death penalty. Let me rephrase.


Christ didn't condemn capital punishment, and the government, not the Romans, but the Jewish government used it because they were told to by God in the OT. That last part is very key.

Blackocrates
02-20-2009, 11:46 PM
I am sorry, that is confusing isn't it?

I was referring to the subject of the death penalty. Let me rephrase.

That clears it up.

But there's not really any biblical backing to be against abortion, let alone call it murder. It seems like in order to find it, there has to be some manipulation of the bible that can easily be interpreted in another way. Christ didn't talk about abortion.

emeraldfin
02-21-2009, 08:48 AM
All come downs to what you class the embryo/fetus as.

Dolphan7
02-21-2009, 11:45 AM
That clears it up.

But there's not really any biblical backing to be against abortion, let alone call it murder. It seems like in order to find it, there has to be some manipulation of the bible that can easily be interpreted in another way. Christ didn't talk about abortion.I gave you a very good explanation populated with several biblical references as to why abortion is considered wrong, yet you say there is no biblical backing?

And Christ also didn't mention homosexuality either, why? Because it was already known in Jewish law, and culture, that homosexuality is wrong, and also abortion - not withstanding the fact that they really didn't have the technology to be performing abortions like we have today. It wasn't mentioned as it wasn't an issue of His time.

Dood - If I could post that Jesus says abortion is wrong, you probably still wouldn't believe it anyway, so at this point I will have to leave you to your own devices.

Dolphan7
02-21-2009, 11:48 AM
All come downs to what you class the embryo/fetus as.
From a governmental standpoint yes, but from a spiritual standpoint, you have to consider what does God our creator think life is and when it begins. There could be, and is, a huge difference between the two.

Blackocrates
02-21-2009, 12:26 PM
I gave you a very good explanation populated with several biblical references as to why abortion is considered wrong, yet you say there is no biblical backing?

And Christ also didn't mention homosexuality either, why? Because it was already known in Jewish law, and culture, that homosexuality is wrong, and also abortion - not withstanding the fact that they really didn't have the technology to be performing abortions like we have today. It wasn't mentioned as it wasn't an issue of His time.

Dood - If I could post that Jesus says abortion is wrong, you probably still wouldn't believe it anyway, so at this point I will have to leave you to your own devices.

If you had a verse where Christ talked about it I would believe it. Don't assume I think the same way as you. I don't ignore facts.

When I gave verses about what Christ said a Christian should do, forgiveness, golden rule, etc. you claimed that wasn't biblical backing. If that wasn't biblical backing then there's no way what you've provided as biblical reasoning against abortion is biblical backing.

When we had our discussion about the death penalty, I thought of abortion. I used your same reasoning that you used with the death penalty, but I substituted death penalty with abortion. According to your own argument, Christ didn't mention it etc. you shouldn't be against abortion.

I definitely see the difference in the two issues, but applying your own reasoning to both of them doesn't add up.

If your argument rests on whether a fetus is a baby then that's fine, I get it. But there's no biblical backing to support that. The stuff you gave seemed to be a desperate stretch in interpretation in order to manipulate the bible to suit your belief, which is what you accused me of doing with the death penalty. All I'm saying is that we're both doing it, but for different issues.

Dolphan7
02-23-2009, 11:44 PM
If you had a verse where Christ talked about it I would believe it. Don't assume I think the same way as you. I don't ignore facts.I ignore facts now?

MMMmmmmm.....didn't know that.


When I gave verses about what Christ said a Christian should do, forgiveness, golden rule, etc. you claimed that wasn't biblical backing. If that wasn't biblical backing then there's no way what you've provided as biblical reasoning against abortion is biblical backing.You provided a verse or two that didn't support your position, which is - all Chrsitians should not support the Death Penalty.


When we had our discussion about the death penalty, I thought of abortion. I used your same reasoning that you used with the death penalty, but I substituted death penalty with abortion. According to your own argument, Christ didn't mention it etc. you shouldn't be against abortion. Look this really isn't that difficult. The OT clearly supports the death penalty. It also clearly is against abortion. The OT is clearly against homosexuality. These are the facts. The OT Law covered three different areas: Civil Law, Religious Law, and Moral Law. All three issues above are considered part of the Moral Law.

Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill the Law. Meaning his death burial and resurrection - the arrival and accomplishment of the Messiah prophesied throughout the entire OT - would end the need for the High Priest form of absolution. This ended the Religious Laws, or the Temple Laws. Burning animals and such was obsolete. It wasn't needed anymore. It was Jesus who make that ultimate sacrifice. Now Salvation was through Him, the salvation of Grace, because we didn't deserve it, and yet he was perfect in his sacrifice, absolving us of all our sins.

The Civic Laws went away the minute God and His Theocracy left and was replaced by another form of Government. By this time it was the Romans. Today it is the State of Israel, which have their own set of civic laws.

But the Moral Laws live on even today. They are a testament of God's character and being and are just as valid today as they were then.

So.....during Jesus time he would have railed against anything in the Law that the people of Israel shouldn't be following, which he in fact did. If you read the Gospels, you will see that the Pharisees had instituted various oral traditions that circumvented the Law, Starting in Matthew 5:17 through Matthew 7:29, the famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus points out the Tradition of the Pharisees, and then the correct meaning of the Law. But all throughout the Gospels Jesus constantly is taking on the Pharisees and their false teachings. Read Matthew 23 when you get a chance. Yikes! He really unloads on them here. But......not once did he mention anything about the death penalty, abortion, or homosexuality. Why? Because it was already known as part of the Law, and it wasn't anything that the Pharisees had bent and twisted to fit into their own rules of conduct. It wasn't in question. It wasn't an issue of the times. It wasn't anything that needed to be addressed, because that part of the Law they understood.


I definitely see the difference in the two issues, but applying your own reasoning to both of them doesn't add up.My reasoning is consistant for all these issues. Read my revised and expanded explanation.


If your argument rests on whether a fetus is a baby then that's fine, I get it. But there's no biblical backing to support that. The stuff you gave seemed to be a desperate stretch in interpretation in order to manipulate the bible to suit your belief, which is what you accused me of doing with the death penalty. All I'm saying is that we're both doing it, but for different issues. I am not manipulating anything. I am providing for you the biblical support for various issues that the Catholics, the Protestants, and Baptists, heck even the Mormons all agree is the biblical meaning behind these issues. In fact the link I provided was a Catholic one I believe.

Here is more biblical support against abortion.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/abortion_and_the_bible.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html