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jim1
03-12-2009, 11:39 AM
The saving grace for Miami's inactivity in the unrestricted free agent cornerback market has been the thought Miami will simply reach into the draft and pluck one or two solid corners to supply its need -- doing so perhaps as early as the first round.

Well, that may yet happen. But anyone thinking there will be a ton of available excellent cornerbacks in this draft didn't watch the NFL combine when many corners ran disappointing times. And now the "draft gurus" are starting to chime in on the class.

Meet Mel Kiper, draft guru. This is what Kiper says about this year's available corners over at espn.com (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/insider/news/story?id=3966885): "There isn't that one true shutdown cornerback available this year," Kiper says. "And after the subpar 40 times run by the defensive backs at the combine workout, this position isn't really as strong or as deep as originally anticipated."

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2009/03/kiper-no-shutdown-corners-in-this-draft.html

3rdandinches
03-12-2009, 11:48 AM
The saving grace for Miami's inactivity in the unrestricted free agent cornerback market has been the thought Miami will simply reach into the draft and pluck one or two solid corners to supply its need -- doing so perhaps as early as the first round.

Well, that may yet happen. But anyone thinking there will be a ton of available excellent cornerbacks in this draft didn't watch the NFL combine when many corners ran disappointing times. And now the "draft gurus" are starting to chime in on the class.

Meet Mel Kiper, draft guru. This is what Kiper says about this year's available corners over at espn.com (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/insider/news/story?id=3966885): "There isn't that one true shutdown cornerback available this year," Kiper says. "And after the subpar 40 times run by the defensive backs at the combine workout, this position isn't really as strong or as deep as originally anticipated."

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2009/03/kiper-no-shutdown-corners-in-this-draft.html

This is (partly) why I believe we will draft one later in day two. Look at L.Mckelvin in Buffalo, he couldn't even break into the starting lineup and he was selected real high. I'm sure he'll still do really well but people here think we'll draft a first round CB and all our problems are solved. An ILB/OLB would start right away and have more of an impact for us while a CB later is how I see it.

WaxOn WaxOff
03-12-2009, 12:48 PM
Our Defensive philosophy is to get pressure on the QB. We were not able to do that effectively last year. Our number priority last year was to get enough beef up front to stop the run. The first step is done. Step 2 is going to happen this year. Put HEAT on the opposing QB. We don't need and won't get a shutdown corner. Parcells will attempt to get players that pressure the QB this year. I think he will go after English if available, Barwin if he's not in round 1. There are at least 10 corners that would suffice, several will be there in round 2.

lbmclean_sj
03-12-2009, 01:16 PM
the rules work against DB's, the solution?

bring a sick pass rush like the Giants did on the way to the superbowl

JT-forpresident
03-12-2009, 01:27 PM
Our Defensive philosophy is to get pressure on the QB. We were not able to do that effectively last year. Our number priority last year was to get enough beef up front to stop the run. The first step is done. Step 2 is going to happen this year. Put HEAT on the opposing QB. We don't need and won't get a shutdown corner. Parcells will attempt to get players that pressure the QB this year. I think he will go after English if available, Barwin if he's not in round 1. There are at least 10 corners that would suffice, several will be there in round 2.

i agree with you, if we add a great pass rusher to this defence, you not only draft one guy, but you draft a presence in the front seven and you immediately give an easier time for the 4 guys back in the secondary... that's been parcell's philosophy since he began coaching.

the problem this year is that i don't know who will be available that is that good. There's no demarcus ware, no shawn merriman, etc this year, at least not at 25... so they should either draft a guy with a high ceiling like barwin or m.johnson, or they should go after someone with unique intangibles later on, a guy like sidbury who has blazing/uncoachable speed as primary attribute , for example , and work him into that special position that is the 3-4 OLB

3rdandinches
03-12-2009, 01:42 PM
i agree with you, if we add a great pass rusher to this defence, you not only draft one guy, but you draft a presence in the front seven and you immediately give an easier time for the 4 guys back in the secondary... that's been parcell's philosophy since he began coaching.

the problem this year is that i don't know who will be available that is that good. There's no demarcus ware, no shawn merriman, etc this year, at least not at 25... so they should either draft a guy with a high ceiling like barwin or m.johnson, or they should go after someone with unique intangibles later on, a guy like sidbury who has blazing/uncoachable speed as primary attribute , for example , and work him into that special position that is the 3-4 OLB

I think M.Johson is getting way to much negative press, he's a guy I could see BP taking because his potential is through the roof. Let's say he flop's or is only decent here and there, you don't really risk alot because his contract isn't all that big and his upside is large enough to take the risk. It's not like the Jets with a top 10 pick where you get punished cap wise if you miss.
I'm not saying we'll go that route but it really wouldn't surprise me if BP/JI were willing to take the risk.

jim1
03-12-2009, 01:43 PM
i agree with you, if we add a great pass rusher to this defence, you not only draft one guy, but you draft a presence in the front seven and you immediately give an easier time for the 4 guys back in the secondary... that's been parcell's philosophy since he began coaching.

the problem this year is that i don't know who will be available that is that good. There's no demarcus ware, no shawn merriman, etc this year, at least not at 25... so they should either draft a guy with a high ceiling like barwin or m.johnson, or they should go after someone with unique intangibles later on, a guy like sidbury who has blazing/uncoachable speed as primary attribute , for example , and work him into that special position that is the 3-4 OLB

Michael Johnson has too high of a bust quotient for #25.

JT-forpresident
03-12-2009, 01:45 PM
I think M.Johson is getting way to much negative press, he's a guy I could see BP taking because his potential is through the roof. Let's say he flop's or is only decent here and there, you don't really risk alot because his contract isn't all that big and his upside is large enough to take the risk. It's not like the Jets with a top 10 pick where you get punished cap wise if you miss.
I'm not saying we'll go that route but it really wouldn't surprise me if BP/JI were willing to take the risk.

the other thing is his versatility... if, in the end, we draft him and find that he lacks that speed and agility required to play in space at the OLB position, he's got the size to put on 10-20 pounds and shift inside to be a rotational DE... i'm liking this pick more and more but i think he'll be gone, there's no way a team like the patriots or other teams who are getting into a 3-4 system will bypass him in the 15 to 25 range. The negative vibe imo is just a reflection of all the scouts bad mouthing him so he drops... much like the andre smith situation, but let's say that johnson isn't in "bad shape" as he is, speaking of his draft stock and his actual "stock", you know ... ha !

ChambersWI
03-12-2009, 02:30 PM
Kiper isn't always right though. He hated the Vikings taking Kevin Williams and loved a bunch of Matt MIllen's draft classes.

Not a dig at Kiper, but I prefer MIke Mayock

PhinsRDbest
03-12-2009, 02:51 PM
Kiper isn't always right though. He hated the Vikings taking Kevin Williams and loved a bunch of Matt MIllen's draft classes.

Not a dig at Kiper, but I prefer MIke Mayock

I was just getting ready to say "Kiper's not always right".

RaboGrande24
03-12-2009, 02:57 PM
I want A. Smith at 25 or D. Butler at 44( if he's there) but I agree that were gonna definately have our pass rush as the number one priority. If we cant have those 2 then I really like Asher Allen in the 3rd or 4th

skipp2myloo13
03-12-2009, 03:03 PM
kiper is an idiot. Just a name. Mayock is the guru

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:07 PM
kiper is an idiot. Just a name. Mayock is the guru

Kiper is not an idiot.

skipp2myloo13
03-12-2009, 03:08 PM
Kiper is not an idiot.

Yes he is, he a OK anaylist, Mayock is much better. Kiper makes crazy calls that never come true just to try to get attention. Yes he is an idiot

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:15 PM
Yes he is, he a OK anaylist, Mayock is much better. Kiper makes crazy calls that never come true just to try to get attention. Yes he is an idiot

Kiper's an idiot, anyone who thinks that we should draft a WR at #25 is an idiot, blah blah blah.

skipp2myloo13
03-12-2009, 03:17 PM
Kiper's an idiot, anyone who thinks that we should draft a WR at #25 is an idiot, blah blah blah.

and you think we will, so when we dont, will you be an idiot?

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:21 PM
and you think we will, so when we dont, will you be an idiot?

No. But I have some strong suspicions about you. Kiper's left nut has more draft info and acumen than your entire body. I'm not here to fight, I'm just tired of you labeling people who don't agree with you as idiots. The Fins may take a WR at #25, may not. But the thought of them taking one is not idiotic. Give the idiot thing a rest.

RealDriscoll
03-12-2009, 03:33 PM
Mel Kiper is much older than me but we went to the same high scool and we both share a spot on the school's alumni board and I have had many conversations with Mel Kiper and I have to admit that this column totally baffles me. Last year Mel Kiper told me he was certain that we would go Dorsey or Chris Long with #1 overall. He thinks his opinion is the law and that is the one thing that gets me about Mel.

This years' class has plenty of lock-down corners. Sean Smith, Darius Butler, Malcolm Jenins, Vontae Davis, Alphonso Smith, Jairus Byrd, DJ Moore ,and Coye Francies are all very solid players and true #1 corners.

RealDriscoll
03-12-2009, 03:33 PM
jim1,

I too think we should go receiver with #25. Hakeem Nicks

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:39 PM
Mel Kiper is much older than me but we went to the same high scool and we both share a spot on the school's alumni board and I have had many conversations with Mel Kiper and I have to admit that this column totally baffles me. Last year Mel Kiper told me he was certain that we would go Dorsey or Chris Long with #1 overall. He thinks his opinion is the law and that is the one thing that gets me about Mel.

This years' class has plenty of lock-down corners. Sean Smith, Darius Butler, Malcolm Jenins, Vontae Davis, Alphonso Smith, Jairus Byrd, DJ Moore ,and Coye Francies are all very solid players and true #1 corners.

I think that Kiper means stud # 1 CB, not just a starter. He has an ego, and no one is right all the time. But I've been watching him since I guess 1984 and he knows his stuff. That doesn't mean that I agree with him all of the time, though.

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:42 PM
jim1,

I too think we should go receiver with #25. Hakeem Nicks

I can't escape Nicks. I love harvin's talent and I've never seen Heyward Bey play, but there's something about Nicks that just makes sense. Actually quite a few things. He would be a solid pick in my book.

RealDriscoll
03-12-2009, 03:44 PM
Kiper is not an idiot by any means. Mayock is my guy when it comes to the draft

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:48 PM
Kiper is not an idiot by any means. Mayock is my guy when it comes to the draft

That's fine, Mayock knows his stuff, too. I think that a guy who really knew his stuff was Joel Buchsbaum, RIP.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/columnists/20030117gene306spcol2p1.asp

RealDriscoll
03-12-2009, 03:48 PM
I think Sean Smith will be a top 10 corner come 2010-2011. Some people just get it and he is that guy. he runs well, he moves fluently, and at 6"3 he has long arms with strong ball skills.

Hakeem Nicks is my favorite player in this draft. He runs the most beautiful routes, has great hands and ran a 4.44 forty which is much better than expected. His routes make him faster. Percy harvin is a multi-tool player but I think the fact that we have Ginn makes Harvin out of the question. I played with Darrius at Maryland my Senior year and I can tell you he is the fastest player I have ever seen in person. He is a little raw b/c he ran track until his Senior year at mcDonough High School. I think him a lot and know he will be a good pro because of how hard he works. For me if Nicks is gone and Darrius is on the board, he is a Dolphin

foycore79
03-12-2009, 03:49 PM
Yeah Kiper the same gut who said Robert Gallery was going to best one of the best LT's for years to come,Kiper the same guy who said Mike Williams from USC was the best player in the 05 draft lmao

RealDriscoll
03-12-2009, 03:49 PM
I find both Kiper and Mayock entertaining and ejoy them both at the end of the day. They know far more than me.

foycore79
03-12-2009, 03:51 PM
Mel Kiper is much older than me but we went to the same high scool and we both share a spot on the school's alumni board and I have had many conversations with Mel Kiper and I have to admit that this column totally baffles me. Last year Mel Kiper told me he was certain that we would go Dorsey or Chris Long with #1 overall. He thinks his opinion is the law and that is the one thing that gets me about Mel.

This years' class has plenty of lock-down corners. Sean Smith, Darius Butler, Malcolm Jenins, Vontae Davis, Alphonso Smith, Jairus Byrd, DJ Moore ,and Coye Francies are all very solid players and true #1 corners.



Love the picks Im big on Sintim but I dont see him lasting up till our second second rounder,Sean Smith is a reach but I think he can be gone by our first second round pick too

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:53 PM
Yeah Kiper the same gut who said Robert Gallery was going to best one of the best LT's for years to come,Kiper the same guy who said Mike Williams from USC was the best player in the 05 draft lmao

So he missed, big deal. When I can look at the backside of that cutie in your photo, who really cares.

3rdandinches
03-12-2009, 03:56 PM
I think Sean Smith will be a top 10 corner come 2010-2011. Some people just get it and he is that guy. he runs well, he moves fluently, and at 6"3 he has long arms with strong ball skills.

Hakeem Nicks is my favorite player in this draft. He runs the most beautiful routes, has great hands and ran a 4.44 forty which is much better than expected. His routes make him faster. Percy harvin is a multi-tool player but I think the fact that we have Ginn makes Harvin out of the question. I played with Darrius at Maryland my Senior year and I can tell you he is the fastest player I have ever seen in person. He is a little raw b/c he ran track until his Senior year at mcDonough High School. I think him a lot and know he will be a good pro because of how hard he works. For me if Nicks is gone and Darrius is on the board, he is a Dolphin

Really, then you seem to think that we're going WR no matter what. If Nicks was on their board for our pick and gone wouldn't you think CB, OLB or ILB would be next on our board. Just curious!

Darrius has the look of what everyone wants (height, speed) but he doesn't have the production at all. I'd think he would have had inflated numbers if he was really all that great.

I would be surprised if we went WR but if we do I really hope it's Nicks or Robiskie later on.

jim1
03-12-2009, 03:58 PM
I think Sean Smith will be a top 10 corner come 2010-2011. Some people just get it and he is that guy. he runs well, he moves fluently, and at 6"3 he has long arms with strong ball skills.

Hakeem Nicks is my favorite player in this draft. He runs the most beautiful routes, has great hands and ran a 4.44 forty which is much better than expected. His routes make him faster. Percy harvin is a multi-tool player but I think the fact that we have Ginn makes Harvin out of the question. I played with Darrius at Maryland my Senior year and I can tell you he is the fastest player I have ever seen in person. He is a little raw b/c he ran track until his Senior year at mcDonough High School. I think him a lot and know he will be a good pro because of how hard he works. For me if Nicks is gone and Darrius is on the board, he is a Dolphin

That's good info, thx. There's a presence to Nicks, that Michael Irvin thing that maybe CK mentioned- he was all over him early on anyway. He's tall,l solidly built, has great hands, can get open, wants the ball- everything that we need. I don't agree with the Ginn/Harvin thing- Harvin is a baller, plain and simple, wants the ball in crunch time and is WAY WAY quicker than Ginn. Ginn has to prove that he's a prime timer- I don't care how many yards he got last year, he has to step it up in clutch time. But I'm encouraged, he's getting way better.

foycore79
03-12-2009, 04:00 PM
So he missed, big deal. When I can look at the backside of that cutie in your photo, who really cares.


Well he seems to miss alot

jim1
03-12-2009, 04:07 PM
Well he seems to miss alot

They all miss a lot. He was right about Jake Long- straight up said that he is indeed a LT. How many among us missed that one? I've been wrong tons, but that is one that I got right. Back to Buchsbaum- that dude printed the draft bible- I spoke with him once, nice guy. I loved his analysis. If I recall correctly he said about Louis Oliver- phenomenal triangle numbers, questionable lateral quickness. Boy was he right on that one. Oliver was pissed that Denver took that Safety before him- he had no right to be pissed.

Edit: Steve Atwater

Dallas Cowboys 1989 draft:

1. Aikman
2. Steve Wisniewski
2. Daryl Johnston
3. Mark Stepnoski
4. Tony Tolbert

That's pretty darned good.

foycore79
03-12-2009, 04:11 PM
They all miss a lot. He was right about Jake Long- straight up said that he is indeed a LT. How many among us missed that one? I've been wrong tons, but that is one that I got right. Back to Buchsbaum- that dude printed the draft bible- I spoke with him once, nice guy. I loved his analysis. If I recall correctly he said about Louis Oliver- phenomenal triangle numbers, questionable lateral quickness. Boy was he right on that one. Oliver was pissed that Denver took that Safety before him- he had no right to be pissed.


I hope not many since that was our biggest need

jim1
03-12-2009, 04:23 PM
I hope not many since that was our biggest need

That was more LT v. RT stuff, but that's all water under the bridge. Everyone misses, even the best of the best. It's the nature of the beast. Bobby Beathard was pretty darned good, too.

dr.jake
03-12-2009, 04:27 PM
i also happen to think that the db's in this draft are pretty thin. good value to be had in 0-line,tight ends safeties and lbs.

jim1
03-12-2009, 04:30 PM
i also happen to think that the db's in this draft are pretty thin. good value to be had in 0-line,tight ends safeties and lbs.

I still haven't given up on Charlie Anderson. Plus we have Cameron Wake, we'll see what happens there. WR, CB, OL depth for me. I don't care who they take, as long as they take the best players for our team.

hooshoops
03-12-2009, 05:14 PM
anyone talkin darius butler over hakeem nicks at #25 needs to have their head examined.

darius butler at #44 i can see although i think i'd go elsewhere. at #25 pass.

and sean smith is a free safety in the pros. and maybe a darn good one.

and i'll take mayock over any other draft analyst.

ChambersWI
03-12-2009, 06:08 PM
They all miss a lot. He was right about Jake Long- straight up said that he is indeed a LT. How many among us missed that one? I've been wrong tons, but that is one that I got right. Back to Buchsbaum- that dude printed the draft bible- I spoke with him once, nice guy. I loved his analysis. If I recall correctly he said about Louis Oliver- phenomenal triangle numbers, questionable lateral quickness. Boy was he right on that one. Oliver was pissed that Denver took that Safety before him- he had no right to be pissed.

Edit: Steve Atwater

Dallas Cowboys 1989 draft:

1. Aikman
2. Steve Wisniewski
2. Daryl Johnston
3. Mark Stepnoski
4. Tony Tolbert

That's pretty darned good.

to be fair with Jake, the only reason any of you guys said he couldn't be a LT only had that opinion because Boomer and CK said at worst, he'd be a pro bowl RT. Not saying you were one, but when CK/Boomer say something about a prospect, everybody takes it as the consensus. They're both really good at what they do don't get me wrong, but they're opinion is different from everybody elses.

jim1
03-12-2009, 06:14 PM
to be fair with Jake, the only reason any of you guys said he couldn't be a LT only had that opinion because Boomer and CK said at worst, he'd be a pro bowl RT. Not saying you were one, but when CK/Boomer say something about a prospect, everybody takes it as the consensus. They're both really good at what they do don't get me wrong, but they're opinion is different from everybody elses.

I was banging the drums for drafting JLong as a pure LT and butted heads with them on that subject and others a multitude of times, mainly on a different website I believe. Ask the Englishman sometime if we agreed on Tim Tebow or Percy Harvin. He's good, but I make up my own mind.

RealDriscoll
03-12-2009, 06:32 PM
Sean Smith is a Cornerback in the NFL. He has worked out as a Corner the entire combine

X-Pacolypse
03-12-2009, 07:32 PM
Yeah Kiper the same gut who said Robert Gallery was going to best one of the best LT's for years to come,Kiper the same guy who said Mike Williams from USC was the best player in the 05 draft lmao

The same Mel Kiper that said Charles Rogers would have a better career than Andre Johnson.

SnakeoilSeller
03-12-2009, 07:41 PM
How many shut down corners are there really in the NFL?? Seriously, 1 or 2 maybe? There are a lot of good corners, but pure, take an entire side of the field, not many. If the QB only has 3-4 seconds to get the ball off before Wake,Porter, Merling, & Langford are crashing in on him, we wont need shut down corners. I am confident that the Trifecta will find some guys to play the position.

SnakeoilSeller
03-12-2009, 07:44 PM
With the Kiper Vs. Mayock debate, I find them both entertaining. They both can be wrong, though I do remember hearing that out of Mayock's top 100 players, 90 of them were drafted in the top 100 last year, so that has to mean something. I'm jealous of Mel Kiper. He has made his entire living off of the NFL Draft, say what you will, but bravo for him - I would have love to have his job.

Zounds
03-12-2009, 08:52 PM
There are only a handful of shutdown corners in the league, and it will always be that way because those "shutdown" corners actually play WR. The fast and physical guys who can catch rarely play CB.

Pinkboy
03-12-2009, 09:11 PM
The term "shutdown corner" is extremely overrated.

Aside from Asomugha and maybe one other guy, there is no such thing as a true shutdown corner anymore in the NFL. They all get beat.

Receivers have gotten really good.

JT-forpresident
03-12-2009, 09:23 PM
i agree with all the assesments made about the "non-existence" of a true shut down corner by the other posters ...

adding to that, our defensive philosophy relies on a good front 7. Providing pressure on a quarterback will make you, you, me, and jason allen look good back in coverage. So the need for an elite, off the charts, prospect at the cornerback position would be hard to obtain first and foremost, but would also bring a lot less than some think ( on the other hand, a beastly pass rusher would have a huge impact on this defence )

jim1
03-13-2009, 09:47 AM
The term "shutdown corner" is extremely overrated.

Aside from Asomugha and maybe one other guy, there is no such thing as a true shutdown corner anymore in the NFL. They all get beat.

Receivers have gotten really good.

The best tandem I ever saw, and maybe just the best individual performances, was Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes against Marino and the Marks Brothers in the Orange Bowl in 1984. I was at the game- if I recall correctly Haynes would jam Duper off the line and then trail him after he released- given Duper's speed it was just amazing. Then to cap it off he had an interception returned for a touchdown- something like 100 or 102 yards. It was sick. Lester was all over Clayton like that stickum was all over his hands. Lester was a nightmare.

A few years later I saw another Dolphins/Raiders game, I think still at the OB. I've never seen a RB turn the corner like Bo Jackson. It was ungodly.

jim1
03-13-2009, 09:49 AM
i agree with all the assesments made about the "non-existence" of a true shut down corner by the other posters ...

adding to that, our defensive philosophy relies on a good front 7. Providing pressure on a quarterback will make you, you, me, and jason allen look good back in coverage. So the need for an elite, off the charts, prospect at the cornerback position would be hard to obtain first and foremost, but would also bring a lot less than some think ( on the other hand, a beastly pass rusher would have a huge impact on this defence )

The dude playing for the Raiders now is a true shutdown corner.

JT-forpresident
03-13-2009, 10:35 AM
The dude playing for the Raiders now is a true shutdown corner.

what i meant, and i think everyone meant, is it's very hard, almost impossible, to identify an athlete coming out of college that you know he will be a shut down corner... there are exceptions obviously but we rarely see those types of players imo... there's a lot of good players that come out, get better in the nfl and are now called shut down guys, but they're not "natural born shut down corners" if i may put it like that lol

jim1
03-13-2009, 10:52 AM
what i meant, and i think everyone meant, is it's very hard, almost impossible, to identify an athlete coming out of college that you know he will be a shut down corner... there are exceptions obviously but we rarely see those types of players imo... there's a lot of good players that come out, get better in the nfl and are now called shut down guys, but they're not "natural born shut down corners" if i may put it like that lol

Understood. I don't see any CB in this draft with Jason Allen's talent. And of course that doesn't mean that he'll get the job done, but I'm pulling for him. He's obviously been one of those tease guys, like Derek Hagan. I hope that J Allen pulls out all the stops and makes it happen this year. And I like Nate Jones, too. I still have Hakeem Nicks on my mind, can't shake it.