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View Full Version : Connor Barwin Improves his Stock at Pro day



FinAtic8480
03-20-2009, 10:33 AM
Cincinnati DE/OLB/TE Connor Barwin ran his forty-yard dash in the 4.4-4.5 range at the Bearcats' Pro Day.

Prospects always do better at Pro Days, but this can only help. Barwin, who ran 4.66 at the Combine, is looking more and more like a first-round pick.

http://www.rotoworld.com/

This guy is really starting to grow on me. I love Clay Matthews but Connor Barwin is starting to sound like an excellent prospect as well. Now I see why mayock had him coming to Miami.

RUDEbyallMEANS
03-20-2009, 10:35 AM
Miami will have to trade up.... ahead of New England to draft the guy.

FinAtic8480
03-20-2009, 10:42 AM
My picks since day one has been OLB Clay Matthews and from the news Im getting Parcels really likes this kid.

skipp2myloo13
03-20-2009, 11:07 AM
He isnt a type of guy i would go crazy for, he would be a solid pick at 25, there may be better picks with 25, however. NE may pick him b4 us, which i would no problems with. No need to chase this guy.

MrClean
03-20-2009, 11:45 AM
I've read the Pats may pick Sintim ahead of us, may pick Matthews ahead of us, same with English, and now Barwin. They can only pick one of them. :)

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 11:49 AM
I'm still wary of a guy that has one grade when you watch him play football on a football field in pads, and a whole other grade when you watch him run around in tights with stopwatches.

BobDole
03-20-2009, 11:52 AM
http://www.rotoworld.com/

This guy is really starting to grow on me. I love Clay Matthews but Connor Barwin is starting to sound like an excellent prospect as well. Now I see why mayock had him coming to Miami.

me too. i'm usually not swayed by the combine or pro day but it's hard to ignore the vert and dash. wasn't too high on him before that. plus we share first names.

Nappy Roots
03-20-2009, 12:11 PM
Shame, i agree with CK here. i think hes a 2nd round talent, hes going to sneek into the 1st round due to times. If we pick him in the first, we will be reaching there. if hes there in the 2nd, he looks like a good value with good upside and potential.

eric1317
03-20-2009, 12:37 PM
I don't under stand CK's point. He had 11 sacks his single season as a DE. That's pretty good. Couple that with his athletic ablility and his strong character. I would be thrilled to get Barwin in the 1st. Just out of curiosity would we also be reaching if we took Matthews considering he is also only a one year starter and wasn't as productive as Barwin?

fishypete
03-20-2009, 12:49 PM
Cincinnati Pro Day...DE/TE Connor Barwin ran a pair of blistering forty times 4.48 and a 4.52 at his pro day workout on Thursday...Head coaches Rex Ryan of the New York Jets and Marvin Lewis of the Cincinnati Bengals were present, along with Mike Tice of the Jaguars and Mike Pope of the Giants.

MrClean
03-20-2009, 12:50 PM
He did very well playing DE as a senior, especially considering it was his first season doing so. I don't get the idea he looks like a high pick only in workouts.

fishypete
03-20-2009, 01:01 PM
I'm still wary of a guy that has one grade when you watch him play football on a football field in pads, and a whole other grade when you watch him run around in tights with stopwatches.

Wary CK?

He has everything that Parcells looks for in a player...Speed, Size and agility. If you look at the times and stats at the combine...he was the best overall in most fields. Not to mention he showed it also on the field...after only playing the position one year. Now I wonder what he could be...under Parcells and Sparano.

Is he a risk? Not as much as selecting J. Allen with the 16th pick.

Lets look at this way...if you look at the so-called top linebackers in this draft...one could say they have topped out...they don't have much room to improve...with Barwin...he has the size to add weight, he has far more speed already than most of the linebackers in this draft and he is fresh...to learn from one of the best.

Now add that he can also play T.E....How many T.E.'s run sub 4.5 times?

He's a once in a life time player. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Dolphins trade up to get him.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 01:11 PM
He did very well playing DE as a senior, especially considering it was his first season doing so. I don't get the idea he looks like a high pick only in workouts.

Mostly because I've seen him play a lot of football and the stats don't always describe what the film does.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 01:16 PM
Wary CK?

He has everything that Parcells looks for in a player...Speed, Size and agility. If you look at the times and stats at the combine...he was the best overall in most fields. Not to mention he showed it also on the field...after only playing the position one year. Now I wonder what he could be...under Parcells and Sparano.

Is he a risk? Not as much as selecting J. Allen with the 16th pick.

Lets look at this way...if you look at the so-called top linebackers in this draft...one could say they have topped out...they don't have much room to improve...with Barwin...he has the size to add weight, he has far more speed already than most of the linebackers in this draft and he is fresh...to learn from one of the best.

Now add that he can also play T.E....How many T.E.'s run sub 4.5 times?

He's a once in a life time player. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Dolphins trade up to get him.

He's a once in a life time player now? Nobody that has seen the guy play multiple football games would call him that.

I'm sorry but this hype is being driven by Combine measurements. Watch him play on the football field and his game play does not warrant this kind of hype. I have watched my fair share of Cincinnati games, as they're in the Big East with USF and I have watched a few to keep an eye on Barwin in particular. Hell, I brought the guy up in OLB discussions a long time ago saying he's very underrated. But that was back when he was maybe a 3rd round pick. Now people are talking about Miami being "lucky" if he falls to #25? Sorry but that meteoric rise happened for one reason...his Combine and Pro Day measurements.

Ask yourself this. If the kid got a hernia right before the Combine, had to have surgery and couldn't work out for two months and therefore couldn't work out for scouts at any point during the pre-draft process...where would he go in the draft? Where would he be drafted? My guess is the tail end of the second round, maybe more like the third round.

Yet, Miami would be lucky if he gets to #25. That's the kind of rise in stock coming from Combine and Pro Day work that I'm really kind of uncomfortable with. Sue me.

fishypete
03-20-2009, 01:18 PM
Mostly because I've seen him play a lot of football and the stats don't always describe what the film does.

I guess another way of looking at that is...maybe you missed something? If he is a novice and can get 15.5 tackles for loss, 11 sacks and seven pass breakups in one season...his first season playing at DE....imagine what he can do with time and training...Yikes!

http://gobearcats.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/cinn-m-footbl-body.html

http://gobearcats.cstv.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/cinn/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/ProDayLog

MrClean
03-20-2009, 01:32 PM
Mostly because I've seen him play a lot of football and the stats don't always describe what the film does.

Did I mention stats? No, don't think so.

If he turns out to be a bust, well then you can say to all the Barwin fans "I told you so", because it looks like he will be drafted somewhere between 20th and 40th. :)

He likely won't be playing the same position in the NFL that you analyzed him at in college, same as several of the OLBs that seem to be on our radar. So when one is projecting a player to a different position, you need to try to think of how he will do in the projected position.

Not everyone who has seen him play a lot of football happen to agree with you either for that matter. But isn't that what makes following the draft enjoyable anyway?

eric1317
03-20-2009, 01:37 PM
CK you still haven't said what makes him a 2nd round talent. Is it his motor, lack of discipline, or some other intangible quality? It seems like you are just saying I'm the expert trust me he is a second round talent. Don't you have to factor in athleticism when evaluating draft picks especially when you only have one year of games to evaluate.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 01:41 PM
Did I mention stats? No, don't think so.

If he turns out to be a bust, well then you can say to all the Barwin fans "I told you so", because it looks like he will be drafted somewhere between 20th and 40th. :)

He likely won't be playing the same position in the NFL that you analyzed him at in college, same as several of the OLBs that seem to be on our radar. So when one is projecting a player to a different position, you need to try to think of how he will do in the projected position.

Not everyone who has seen him play a lot of football happen to agree with you either for that matter. But isn't that what makes following the draft enjoyable anyway?

He's pretty stout against the run and he's going to be good in space especially in man coverage, but don't be surprised if he struggles with zones, and just isn't that great of a pass rusher in the pros.

All I'm saying is if all you did was pop in the tape of the guy and evaluate where he should go in the draft, say he got a hernia before the Combine and was available to teams only in an interview capacity before the draft, the guy would be drafted late in the 2nd or in the 3rd round. Yet, he goes to the Combine, he goes to his Pro Day, all the sudden he's worthy of the #25 pick and then some.

If you're comfortable with a guy rising like that purely because of the numbers while he's running around in tights, ok. I'm not so comfortable with it and I would not pick him at #25. I would gladly pick him at #44 and I might even pick him at #34 if I were the Patriots. But first round? No. There are other guys that are much more sure things.

Many teams out there still consider the guy a Tight End. Why do you think it was Mike Tice out there representing the Jaguars, instead of their DL coach? Why do you think he was only invited to the Senior Bowl as a TE?

I'm just saying the talk has run away with itself. Especially when you have various...people...saying he's "once in a life time".

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 01:50 PM
CK you still haven't said what makes him a 2nd round talent. Is it his motor, lack of discipline, or some other intangible quality? It seems like you are just saying I'm the expert trust me he is a second round talent. Don't you have to factor in athleticism when evaluating draft picks especially when you only have one year of games to evaluate.

Of course you factor in athleticism. But when that athleticism doesn't really show up on the football field it's a concern. For all that speed, he doesn't have a great speed rush. He doesn't just run around tackles or dip his shoulders with great proficiency. Don't get me wrong, his speed rush is his best move, but it doesn't have any kind of elite quality. He doesn't use his hands, he throttles down when a tackle gets his hands on him. He doesn't seem to have a natural instinct for keeping his feet. He is certainly raw in terms of awareness.

There's two sides to everything. Once upon a time I brought up how the guy has been able to do moderately well at everything he's done, whether that be as a tight end, a special teams tackler, kick blocker or defensive end. But he's not been a true standout in any one of those areas, despite the stats in 2008. As a tight end, he was 2nd string. As a defensive end, I don't believe he got consistent pressure.

It takes a lot to get in to the lower middle areas of the first round. You don't just get into that area by birthright and then someone has to come up with a good reason why you shouldn't be there. The guy is raw as they come and hasn't proven he belongs there. That's all I'm saying. The only venue in which he's proven thus far that he belongs there, is one where he gets to wear tights and no pads, around a bunch of stopwatches. That's great, but it shouldn't be the bulk of argument about why you're a mid first round pick.

He could be great. Or, he could end up just looking like another guy.

eric1317
03-20-2009, 01:52 PM
CK just out of curiosity do you have Matthew in the second as well?

fishypete
03-20-2009, 01:53 PM
He's pretty stout against the run and he's going to be good in space especially in man coverage, but don't be surprised if he struggles with zones, and just isn't that great of a pass rusher in the pros.

All I'm saying is if all you did was pop in the tape of the guy and evaluate where he should go in the draft, say he got a hernia before the Combine and was available to teams only in an interview capacity before the draft, the guy would be drafted late in the 2nd or in the 3rd round. Yet, he goes to the Combine, he goes to his Pro Day, all the sudden he's worthy of the #25 pick and then some.

If you're comfortable with a guy rising like that purely because of the numbers while he's running around in tights, ok. I'm not so comfortable with it and I would not pick him at #25. I would gladly pick him at #44 and I might even pick him at #34 if I were the Patriots. But first round? No. There are other guys that are much more sure things.

Many teams out there still consider the guy a Tight End. Why do you think it was Mike Tice out there representing the Jaguars, instead of their DL coach? Why do you think he was only invited to the Senior Bowl as a TE?

I'm just saying the talk has run away with itself. Especially when you have various...people...saying he's "once in a life time".

"As for the University of Cincinnati contingent, Conner Barwin has continued to impress everyone with his versatility. Barwin was invited as a tight end, but lined up some Wednesday on the defensive line, where he showed his strength in pass rushing. While most observers are still projecting Barwin to play on defense, he has showed nice hands while running routes at tight end and has done a solid job blocking."

Have you ever heard of ANY player being invited to the Senior Bowl, as a two way player?

Since when is it bad for a player to be good in two different positions?

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 01:55 PM
CK just out of curiosity do you have Matthew in the second as well?

I have Matthews a little ahead of Connor Barwin, mostly because I think Matthews has natural high quality defensive instincts and background, and has already shown the proficiency to make it as a genuine linebacker. That makes him an easier projection to inside linebacker in the 3-4 defense, IMO.

Barwin's barely shown the genuine proficiency or instincts to make it as a defensive end or a defensive player period and now all of a sudden he's transitioning to linebacker.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 01:58 PM
"As for the University of Cincinnati contingent, Conner Barwin has continued to impress everyone with his versatility. Barwin was invited as a tight end, but lined up some Wednesday on the defensive line, where he showed his strength in pass rushing. While most observers are still projecting Barwin to play on defense, he has showed nice hands while running routes at tight end and has done a solid job blocking."

Have you ever heard of ANY player being invited to the Senior Bowl, as a two way player?

Since when is it bad for a player to be good in two different positions?

He was invited as a Tight End. Showing up as a Tight End was the only way he was going to go to Mobile. As a reward for playing Tight End, they agreed to allow him to play some Defensive End, which he did during some of the practices and for a few snaps during the game itself. And he looked ok. He's not a bad football player at all. He's a good one. I just think people, especially you when you call him a "once in a life time player", are REALLY getting away from themselves in their evals of him.

fishypete
03-20-2009, 02:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4ZP4ruwjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u79CJdrxZbo

BlueFin
03-20-2009, 02:08 PM
He's pretty stout against the run and he's going to be good in space especially in man coverage, but don't be surprised if he struggles with zones, and just isn't that great of a pass rusher in the pros.

All I'm saying is if all you did was pop in the tape of the guy and evaluate where he should go in the draft, say he got a hernia before the Combine and was available to teams only in an interview capacity before the draft, the guy would be drafted late in the 2nd or in the 3rd round. Yet, he goes to the Combine, he goes to his Pro Day, all the sudden he's worthy of the #25 pick and then some.

If you're comfortable with a guy rising like that purely because of the numbers while he's running around in tights, ok. I'm not so comfortable with it and I would not pick him at #25. I would gladly pick him at #44 and I might even pick him at #34 if I were the Patriots. But first round? No. There are other guys that are much more sure things.

Many teams out there still consider the guy a Tight End. Why do you think it was Mike Tice out there representing the Jaguars, instead of their DL coach? Why do you think he was only invited to the Senior Bowl as a TE?

I'm just saying the talk has run away with itself. Especially when you have various...people...saying he's "once in a life time".

I think its strictly his potential and athletic ability that moves him up the board, he, of course, has not played the position long, so much of it is strictly projection. You are on the money on this.

But he probably will go higher than warranted because of the priority teams put on pass rushers now.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 02:10 PM
I think its strictly his potential and athletic ability that moves him the board, he, of course, has not played the position long, so much of it is strictly projection. You are on the money on this.

But he probably will go higher than warranted because of the priority teams put on pass rushers now.

Not to mention the priority on players that project to a 3-4 system, given that 15 teams now run either a 3-4 or a hybrid version of it.

eric1317
03-20-2009, 02:14 PM
I agree matthews is a more versatile lb in a 3-4, but wouldn't the phins be looking for someone to rush the passer and hold the edge against the run @ #25. Someone who could push Roth.

finfan54
03-20-2009, 02:19 PM
Miami will have to trade up.... ahead of New England to draft the guy.

That is unless the Patriots trade picks for a draft day move like they usually do. Stay tuned...

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 02:20 PM
I agree matthews is a more versatile lb in a 3-4, but wouldn't the phins be looking for someone to rush the passer and hold the edge against the run @ #25. Someone who could push Roth.

They could just as easily look for someone to replace Akin Ayodele and maybe make a few more plays than Channing Crowder. IMO, Ayodele is a bigger hole on the defense than Roth. Roth sets the edge better than just about any OLB in the league. And you can't get away with just having a back block him in the backfield, whether that be an H-Back, Fullback or Halfback. When you get someone on him from the line, he's not a good pass rusher. But if you try and have someone block him from the backfield, he'll push the guy straight into the quarterback. Roth comes out of the game in pass rush situations anyway, and that's when we would bring in someone like a Cameron Wake for some added juice in that department.

We could do with either at #25 overall.

But if I'm choosing a one-year starter for OLB at #25 overall, I'm going to go with Michael Johnson because at least he has been playing defense for a long time, has better instincts for it, has the tremendous length to go along with the athleticism, and showed that he can pass rush against any tackle in the country including the likes of Eugene Monroe and Garrett Reynolds.

fishypete
03-20-2009, 02:26 PM
I think its strictly his potential and athletic ability that moves him up the board, he, of course, has not played the position long, so much of it is strictly projection. You are on the money on this.

But he probably will go higher than warranted because of the priority teams put on pass rushers now.

Of course a few players every draft rise on potential...but in his case...he's larger, faster and is as agile as ANY linebacker in this draft.

I remember when many thought that Cromartie was a second round pick to start with and after the combine, what happened to him?

How about our very own J. Allen...looked great on tape...came off a injury...yet a few here said he's a first rounder for sure....was he worth it?

How about Ginn? Was he worth the 9th pick...after what he did in college?

Lets remember...Barwin is 250 lbs...runs a sub 4.5 and can jump over 40 inches....never mind his great stats at the 3 cone or the 20 yd shuttle.

Lets also remember that with the exception of ONE linebacker in this draft...none have played in a 3-4 defense...so it will be not only new to all of them...but untested...not every linebacker that has played in a 4-3...can adjust to a 3-4.

finfan54
03-20-2009, 02:29 PM
Connor Barwin does it all IMO. For anyone to suggest his skills are less than someone else because of limited playtime are only kidding themselves. He has instincts and is a football player. That is why he played one position on offense for 3 years and then became a better defensive guy because as I have always said, defense is so much easier to play. If you have instincts and athletic ability, then you can play football at a high level.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 02:38 PM
I remember when many thought that Cromartie was a second round pick to start with and after the combine, what happened to him?

Man, you make this easy sometimes. Cromartie was widely regarded as one of, if not the best corner in the nation. Problem? He got hurt. His pre-draft workouts merely showed that this dude was WAY further along in his recovery from injury than people thought he might be. The workouts functioned as they should...as a tool that merely affirmed what scouts had already seen on film from Antonio Cromartie.


How about our very own J. Allen...looked great on tape...came off a injury...yet a few here said he's a first rounder for sure....was he worth it?

Jason Allen again, his Combine performances showed how far along he was in his recovery from a hip injury. But an evaluation of him on film gave most people a late first round feel. However, his absolutely blowout numbers at the Combine gave people a mid-to-high first feel.


How about Ginn? Was he worth the 9th pick...after what he did in college?

Now you're just throwing names out there. How does Ginn have to do with anything discussed here?


Lets remember...Barwin is 250 lbs...runs a sub 4.5 and can jump over 40 inches....never mind his great stats at the 3 cone or the 20 yd shuttle.

Lets also remember that with the exception of ONE linebacker in this draft...none have played in a 3-4 defense...so it will be not only new to all of them...but untested...not every linebacker that has played in a 4-3...can adjust to a 3-4.

Clint Sintim played in a straight 3-4. Clay Matthews played Elephant End which is very similar to a 3-4 OLB. Paul Kruger played a LOT of standup linebacker, about as much as some of the players in the NFL that are widely considered to be "3-4 OLBs".

eric1317
03-20-2009, 02:59 PM
Could we upgrade the middle sure, but we just gave a bunch of money to crowder and call me crazy but I like Torbor. I think Matthews would have a very hard time getting any playing time in the middle. There is a primium for passrush in the draft as there should be. I think wake will eventually replace porter and will need to spell him frequently to keep him fresh. I think we will be looking to find someone to push Roth and Barwin is a good candidate. What I like about Barwin is his intelligance and charater which I hope will make up for his lack of experience.

fishypete
03-20-2009, 03:00 PM
[quote=ckparrothead;1062883451]Man, you make this easy sometimes. Cromartie was widely regarded as one of, if not the best corner in the nation. Problem? He got hurt. His pre-draft workouts merely showed that this dude was WAY further along in his recovery from injury than people thought he might be. The workouts functioned as they should...as a tool that merely affirmed what scouts had already seen on film from Antonio Cromartie.

How soon you forget CK....Cromartie was seen as a 2nd rounder, before the combine...until he ran.

Anyone who doesn't think that as of now...that both Allen and Ginn have been failures as 1st round picks...needs to forget about football.

The only Linebacker that actually played in a 3-4 is Sintim...everything else is B.S. and you know it.

Matthews weighs 240....Kruger never played as a linebacker....ran a 4.8/40 and will never be as fast or agile as Barwin.

If you really look at the figures....the ONLY linebacker that equals Barwin is Curry...and Curry could be the first pick in the draft.

Just compare his stats to the players that were in last years draft....faster than Rivers...where did he go?

Mayo is the only one that you can compare...he was 6'1 242....with a Verticle of 32"....thats 8 inches less than Barwin.

Here's one last item....Jason Taylor....remember him?

Came out as a tweener....some thought he was a 4-3 DE...a few thought he was a 3-4 OLB...6'6" 245 ran a 4.64....18 reps and a 32 vert...I wonder what happened to him? LOL.

MDFINFAN
03-20-2009, 03:06 PM
Could we upgrade the middle sure, but we just gave a bunch of money to crowder and call me crazy but I like Torbor. I think Matthews would have a very hard time getting any playing time in the middle. There is a primium for passrush in the draft as there should be. I think wake will eventually replace porter and will need to spell him frequently to keep him fresh. I think we will be looking to find someone to push Roth and Barwin is a good candidate. What I like about Barwin is his intelligance and charater which I hope will make up for his lack of experience.

Have you guys seem this workout video.. he seems to have intangibles, but..

Anyway here's the video.

http://tinsfins.blogspot.com/2009/03/what-barwin.html

eric1317
03-20-2009, 03:39 PM
You guy are arguing over some silly stuff now. If there was an exact science to drafting everyone would have the same draft boards. There is alot of projection in the draft we all see the tangibles atheleticism and play on the feild, but most of us have no idea what the person is really like. Will he bend over backward to be the best, does he learn quickly, is winning the only thing that matter to him. Even the scout who know these player get it wrong routinely that's why 7th rounder become stars and 1st rounders flop.

fishypete
03-20-2009, 03:42 PM
Connor Barwin will continue to skyrocket up draft boards with another impressive performance. Barwin, a former tight end who switched to defensive end, may ultimately be making the transition to linebacker, considering the eye-popping workouts he's produced at the Combine and now at his Pro Day. Barwin produced two of the more eye-popping results of the defensive ends at the Combine with a 4.66 electronically-timed 40-yard dash and a 40.5" vertical jump. He was even faster Wednesday, posting times ranging from 4.48-4.57, according to those in attendance. He also lifted the bar 23 times and looked good in linebacker, tight end and defensive line drills...

EJay
03-20-2009, 03:44 PM
Anyone who doesn't think that as of now...that both Allen and Ginn have been failures as 1st round picks...needs to forget about football.

Allen, yes. Ginn, no.

Anyone that would write off a player that hasn't even started his 3rd season playing at a position that historically has a 2-4 year transition period needs to forget about football.

If Ginn regresses this year or shows little to no improvement, then my opinion of him will start leaning towards the 'failure' label.

As for Allen, he's played one year longer than Ginn and can't even get on the field. While constantly being switched from CB to S hasn't helped, the fact that he can't get on the field beyond special teams or injuries to other players speaks volumes.

rayfinkle5
03-20-2009, 03:55 PM
But if I'm choosing a one-year starter for OLB at #25 overall, I'm going to go with Michael Johnson because at least he has been playing defense for a long time, has better instincts for it, has the tremendous length to go along with the athleticism, and showed that he can pass rush against any tackle in the country including the likes of Eugene Monroe and Garrett Reynolds.

Thank you. Barwin is riding high on the hype train while Johnson seems to be laying on the tracks. Why? We heard very little about Johnson's pro day and the forty time the Lions clocked at 4.49 seconds. For 6'7" and 266 pounds I would say that is quite scary. We may be the only two on this board but I too like Johnson more than Barwin. Cheers!

lbmclean_sj
03-20-2009, 04:11 PM
I'm still wary of a guy that has one grade when you watch him play football on a football field in pads, and a whole other grade when you watch him run around in tights with stopwatches.

now we know why you arent a lazy scout:d-day:

fishypete
03-20-2009, 04:12 PM
Allen, yes. Ginn, no.

Anyone that would write off a player that hasn't even started his 3rd season playing at a position that historically has a 2-4 year transition period needs to forget about football.

If Ginn regresses this year or shows little to no improvement, then my opinion of him will start leaning towards the 'failure' label.

As for Allen, he's played one year longer than Ginn and can't even get on the field. While constantly being switched from CB to S hasn't helped, the fact that he can't get on the field beyond special teams or injuries to other players speaks volumes.

Your welcome to think what you want...but until Ginn proves on the field consistently that he was worth the 9th pick....he to me and many others will be known as a failure. It doesn't take three years to prove oneself...especially when your taken with a very early first round pick. I'm not sure where that B.S. ever came from....if that was the case....every first round pick would not be expected to produce from day one....why would you waste first round picks then? First round picks are expected to produce the first year and then afterwards....thats why they are first round picks to begin with. The players you give time to grow and learn their jobs are 4 round and on.

lbmclean_sj
03-20-2009, 04:14 PM
how many games did Cromartie actually play in college?

I would have never taken him in the first based on film

eric1317
03-20-2009, 04:45 PM
The problem with Johnson again comes down to character. Does he have the drive to successed? If you are talking about consistant pass rush from a college player I'm not sure Johnson has it. Anyway I'm not 100% johnson or Barwin will be there at 25. I think Johnson is more appealing to 4-3 teams and has a better shot at going in the top 20.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 04:51 PM
how many games did Cromartie actually play in college?

I would have never taken him in the first based on film

I don't remember for sure but I believe it was over 21 games. Boomer and I both scouted him heavily and came away thoroughly impressed, having him as the top corner of his class before getting hurt.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 04:52 PM
The problem with Johnson again comes down to character. Does he have the drive to successed? If you are talking about consistant pass rush from a college player I'm not sure Johnson has it. Anyway I'm not 100% johnson or Barwin will be there at 25. I think Johnson is more appealing to 4-3 teams and has a better shot at going in the top 20.

How is Connor Barwin any less of an underperformer than Michael Johnson? You have to think about this. Barwin was just a 2nd string tight end and a special teams performer before 2008. If he had the kind of CRAZY athleticism that he's showing in these Combine and Pro Day workouts...that's underperforming. I don't care how you slice it.

lbmclean_sj
03-20-2009, 04:53 PM
I don't remember for sure but I believe it was over 21 games. Boomer and I both scouted him heavily and came away thoroughly impressed, having him as the top corner of his class before getting hurt.

I must have confused not starting with not playing

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 04:55 PM
I must have confused not starting with not playing

Yeah he didn't start a whole lot of games but the thing about that is Simon knows this from having followed FSU so long and I had heard it too, but "starting" over there can all too often be meaningless symbolism. Cromartie was playing most of the snaps the entire time. He just was not necessarily awarded the right to start on the first snap of the game.

He played a lot. Or at least, he played enough.

fishypete
03-20-2009, 05:00 PM
How is Connor Barwin any less of an underperformer than Michael Johnson? You have to think about this. Barwin was just a 2nd string tight end and a special teams performer before 2008. If he had the kind of CRAZY athleticism that he's showing in these Combine and Pro Day workouts...that's underperforming. I don't care how you slice it.

And Both Michigan and Michigan St....didn't want him.

So all this proves is....teams and people make mistakes.

ckparrothead
03-20-2009, 05:05 PM
And Both Michigan and Michigan St....didn't want him.

So all this proves is....teams and people make mistakes.

They do indeed. So how was keeping Michael Johnson on the bench any less of a mistake?

eric1317
03-20-2009, 05:22 PM
I didn't say anything about underperforming. You said yourself that Johnson played D all 4 years at GT while Barwin only played D one year. Jphnson had 4 years to develope DE skills Barwin had one. They both had simular stats last year. My hope is that Barwin will get the experience he needs from the phins and his production will follow. Johnson fairly or unfairly has be charactorized as unmotivated. A player who takes plays off. I have not heard anything like this about Barwin. Like I said though there is a good chance they will both be gone by 25

fishypete
03-20-2009, 05:22 PM
They do indeed. So how was keeping Michael Johnson on the bench any less of a mistake?

CK...we agree....many players get a raw deal....sometimes the fault of the team...sometimes created by the player.

We also agree that sometimes players fall thru the cracks....it is afterall...an art.

I like you...think Johnson has plenty of potential...but afterall....Johnson isn't a linebacker...not at 6'6" 266...and I wouldn't mind at all if he was picked by the Dolphins...I don't see that happening...but I wouldn't be mad if he was selected.

As a fan...I'm trying to look at players as I would IF I was Parcells... as Parcells I would think that a kid like Barwin would be exciting to have...he has everything I'm looking for in a player....great character, the size, the speed and very obviously the agility to play OLB. I'm also looking at him to be able to play T.E. for me...whats wrong with a TE thats 6'4" 255 that runs 4.5 times...not a thing. For one pick...I can get one player that can play two positions.

We two are not new to this happening...we go thru this every year...every draft....players rise....players fall.

As long as they rise because of their work...and because of their stats...I don't have a problem with that.

We both have seen players rise because they ran a great 40 time....the problem is....most players don't run 40 yds....it's the 10yd, 20 yd....three cone and such....that is far more important.

As a fan...I could care less who the Dolphins select....especially now with great management in place, to do the selecting.

Nappy Roots
03-20-2009, 06:03 PM
how is Johnson not a LB at that size? he has the perfect size and athletic ability for the OLB on this team..

TraderJoe
03-20-2009, 09:32 PM
He is flying up everyone's boards after that combine and now his pro-day, holy cow!

FinAtic8480
03-20-2009, 09:49 PM
There is something that worries me about Barwin, the fact teams think he can become a TE. I mean what is he a DE, OLB or TE. The guy has had a monster combine and pro day and while he has grown on me a bit. Im sticking to my guy Clay Matthews who I think will be selected by us. Thanks to a great scource and member of the site who knows Matthews the kid was approached at the combine even before he could check in to his hotel by Parcells. I have said all offseason if Matthews is there he is ours. The only way I dont see us picking him is if a guy like Maybin drops which I doubt. Barwin worries me cause they still cannot decide what he will be.

fishypete
03-21-2009, 12:05 AM
There is something that worries me about Barwin, the fact teams think he can become a TE. I mean what is he a DE, OLB or TE. The guy has had a monster combine and pro day and while he has grown on me a bit. Im sticking to my guy Clay Matthews who I think will be selected by us. Thanks to a great scource and member of the site who knows Matthews the kid was approached at the combine even before he could check in to his hotel by Parcells. I have said all offseason if Matthews is there he is ours. The only way I dont see us picking him is if a guy like Maybin drops which I doubt. Barwin worries me cause they still cannot decide what he will be.

Every linebacker that played in a 4-3 in college is a question mark...for a 3-4 team. I really don't know why some fans love Matthews...he's really no better than Barwin in playing time;

"Has less than a full season as a starter and only 10 career starts -- all in 2008. Surrounded by so much talent at USC that holes in his game could have been disguised. Lacks the bulk to remain at defensive end. Prefers to run around blocks rather than take them on. While he improved as the year went on, remains a work in progress in disengaging from blocks. Suffered broken left thumb against Nebraska, then fractured a metacarpal later in season, then had to have surgery after the bowl game as it did not heal properly."

He's really not more impressive than Barwin when it comes to stat's....or his combine results...in fact Barwin beats him in most items...and Barwin weighs 16 lbs more.

Be careful of recent players that come from USC...they have great stats...but really...is it the system or the other players surrounding them...or is it that lack of competition they play thats makes them look good coming out of college...but once in the NFL...they just become average.

finfan54
03-21-2009, 12:15 AM
The whole Gil Brandt saying BP's guy is a guy who he would go up to get. This is the guy IMO. Gil said he was someone with not alot of notieriety. Well, all that has changed my friends. Apparently, the dude is going to see some teams. And if he is indeed the guy BP loved, then BP also already knew and understood that he would be a wanted man before anyone else.

finfan54
03-21-2009, 12:17 AM
There is something that worries me about Barwin, the fact teams think he can become a TE. I mean what is he a DE, OLB or TE. The guy has had a monster combine and pro day and while he has grown on me a bit. Im sticking to my guy Clay Matthews who I think will be selected by us. Thanks to a great scource and member of the site who knows Matthews the kid was approached at the combine even before he could check in to his hotel by Parcells. I have said all offseason if Matthews is there he is ours. The only way I dont see us picking him is if a guy like Maybin drops which I doubt. Barwin worries me cause they still cannot decide what he will be.

Sticking to Clay Matthews is not a bad idea at all....considering Barwin could shoot up past him easily. So at 25, we end up with!..........

FinAtic8480
03-21-2009, 12:54 AM
I love Matthews work ethic and play on the field, the guy is relentless and might be one of the reason he got injured. Perfect size,speed and can cover well. Im sorry, but my guy this year is Matthews similiar to how last year was Jake Long.

Digital
03-21-2009, 03:53 AM
Eric1317, please pick a different avatar ... that one is mine. :)


But if I'm choosing a one-year starter for OLB at #25 overall, I'm going to go with Michael Johnson because at least he has been playing defense for a long time, has better instincts for it, has the tremendous length to go along with the athleticism, and showed that he can pass rush against any tackle in the country including the likes of Eugene Monroe and Garrett Reynolds.

CK, I realize you are only picking from 1 year LB's here, but I'm even more leary of Johnson than Barwin. I don't think anybody has better physical ability than Johnson. He was in a real position to showcase his ability and hasn't really been nearly as impressive against collegiate competition as one would have expected. At the risk of dating myself, he reminds me of Aundray Bruce. I'm with Jimmy Johnson ... unless they've proven production in college, I'm not willing to take a gamble on them until the late rounds.

I think Barwin will be a good player, but I'll be disappointed if we select him at 25, and I'll be downright depressed if we pick Johnson.

I wasn't too high on Matthews at first, because he seemed a little too light for SOLB and not quite quick enough for WOLB, but his combine performance has made me re-think his quicks. At USC he ws surrounded by so much talent and speed it's hard to gague him properly. I never really doubted the rest of his game. I'm less concerned about him dropping back into coverage than most people are. I think he has enough intuitiveness, agility, and desire to learn to become good in coverage.

So, while I'd love to have Cushing minus the injuries, I think he'll be gone anyway (if Cushing is even on our draft board ... Parcells/Ireland don't generally go after injury-prone players). I think Matthews will be our pick if he's available and the Illinois CB Vontae Davis has already been picked.

Fortunately for us, this draft is deep at LB and has a lot of talent rated between the late first and late second, where we have 3 picks. I will be shocked if we don't pick up a LB on day 1.

TraderJoe
03-21-2009, 07:14 AM
Every linebacker that played in a 4-3 in college is a question mark...for a 3-4 team. I really don't know why some fans love Matthews...he's really no better than Barwin in playing time;

"Has less than a full season as a starter and only 10 career starts -- all in 2008. Surrounded by so much talent at USC that holes in his game could have been disguised. Lacks the bulk to remain at defensive end. Prefers to run around blocks rather than take them on. While he improved as the year went on, remains a work in progress in disengaging from blocks. Suffered broken left thumb against Nebraska, then fractured a metacarpal later in season, then had to have surgery after the bowl game as it did not heal properly."

He's really not more impressive than Barwin when it comes to stat's....or his combine results...in fact Barwin beats him in most items...and Barwin weighs 16 lbs more.

Be careful of recent players that come from USC...they have great stats...but really...is it the system or the other players surrounding them...or is it that lack of competition they play thats makes them look good coming out of college...but once in the NFL...they just become average.


IMO most fans buy into the predraft hype and don't really do the homework. Even a glance at Mathews tells you that there are just not alot of impact plays or starts. I would also suspect that much of his production is leftovers. Nice player, nice bloodlines, good athlete but not nearly as good as some want him to be IMO.

RUDEbyallMEANS
03-21-2009, 08:14 AM
Picking at #25, the only way Miami gets an elite pass rusher is with ? marks surrounding the player....

If there weren't question marks, he would be a Top 5 pick.... Correct?

The guys agility is off the charts. With excellent coaching, which Miami does have.. Miami cannot pass up on this guy.

skipp2myloo13
03-21-2009, 08:30 AM
I dont see Barwin, Johnson or Matthews as first round picks. I think that one of them or Sintim can fall to our 44. Ayers is another second round guy i wouldnt mind taking a look at. None of them is worth 25, unless our bored is really depleted. Nicks and Butler are the guys im looking at with 25. 44 is Sean Smith (if he can play CB), Any of the LB's i mentioned. 56 i would love if to get best OLB. That way get a WR, Nicks, CB, Smith and OLB, Cody Brown?? or whoever else falls, all in the first 3 rounds.

finfan54
03-21-2009, 09:25 AM
He's a once in a life time player now? Nobody that has seen the guy play multiple football games would call him that.

I'm sorry but this hype is being driven by Combine measurements. Watch him play on the football field and his game play does not warrant this kind of hype. I have watched my fair share of Cincinnati games, as they're in the Big East with USF and I have watched a few to keep an eye on Barwin in particular. Hell, I brought the guy up in OLB discussions a long time ago saying he's very underrated. But that was back when he was maybe a 3rd round pick. Now people are talking about Miami being "lucky" if he falls to #25? Sorry but that meteoric rise happened for one reason...his Combine and Pro Day measurements.

Ask yourself this. If the kid got a hernia right before the Combine, had to have surgery and couldn't work out for two months and therefore couldn't work out for scouts at any point during the pre-draft process...where would he go in the draft? Where would he be drafted? My guess is the tail end of the second round, maybe more like the third round.

Yet, Miami would be lucky if he gets to #25. That's the kind of rise in stock coming from Combine and Pro Day work that I'm really kind of uncomfortable with. Sue me.

The only thing here though CK is the rise in 3-4 teams and now they know BP and BB want him so why not them?

It is still early to tell but now, I dont think he makes it to 44 any way you slice it now. So if this guy is indeed the guy BP is ga ga over, then so am I. I trust his instincts more than anyone this regime has ever had and that includes Shula.

BlueFin
03-22-2009, 12:24 PM
Of course a few players every draft rise on potential...but in his case...he's larger, faster and is as agile as ANY linebacker in this draft.

I remember when many thought that Cromartie was a second round pick to start with and after the combine, what happened to him?

How about our very own J. Allen...looked great on tape...came off a injury...yet a few here said he's a first rounder for sure....was he worth it?

How about Ginn? Was he worth the 9th pick...after what he did in college?

Lets remember...Barwin is 250 lbs...runs a sub 4.5 and can jump over 40 inches....never mind his great stats at the 3 cone or the 20 yd shuttle.

Lets also remember that with the exception of ONE linebacker in this draft...none have played in a 3-4 defense...so it will be not only new to all of them...but untested...not every linebacker that has played in a 4-3...can adjust to a 3-4.

Certainly what lessens the risk is that he would seem to be great tight end prospect, even if he fails as a defender.

fishypete
03-22-2009, 12:42 PM
Certainly what lessens the risk is that he would seem to be great tight end prospect, even if he fails as a defender.

While I agree....I don't believe he'll fail. It never hurts to have players that can help out if a problem arises.

Kinda like Jensen did.