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emeraldfin
03-21-2009, 09:40 PM
During the week I attended the funeral of somebody who had committed suicide and as I listended to the priest speak about his death I could'nt help but wonder about what lies ahead for someone's soul when they commit suicide, according to Christian belief? Being an extremely sensitive subject I have not come across a discussion where this has been the subject.

I am aware of the sanctity of life and that we should be grateful of the live God has given us. So with suicide being a contradiction to this it is thus sinful, but I feel that its probably not as straight forward as that which is why I ask the question.

Dolphan7
03-21-2009, 11:54 PM
It isn't straight forward you are right. Very complicated issue.

Killing oneself is technically murder so from that aspect it is a sin.

But there are two parts to this.

One is the actual sin of killing yourself, and the other are the consequences of killing yourself.

Obviously God wouldn't want us to kill ourselves. Life is precious. We are created in His image and likeness, and we are special to him above all other creatures on earth. He created life....to live and be in fellowship with Him. Even those who don't believe in Him, he still thinks about you everyday, and longs for you to accept Him.

The issue really is if you are a Christian or not.

If you are a Christian and for whatever reason end up offing yourself, you commit a sin - yes, but that sin I don't believe will cause God to revoke your belief in His Son Jesus. Best to leave it up to God to deal with on His terms.

However if one isn't a Christian, the ramifications of your deed will be eternal separation from the Creator. This has nothing to do with the act of killing yourself, but the lack of belief in His Son Jesus at the time of your death. You would have effectively removed any possibility of getting right with God.

emeraldfin
03-22-2009, 09:58 AM
It isn't straight forward you are right. Very complicated issue.

Killing oneself is technically murder so from that aspect it is a sin.

But there are two parts to this.

One is the actual sin of killing yourself, and the other are the consequences of killing yourself.

Obviously God wouldn't want us to kill ourselves. Life is precious. We are created in His image and likeness, and we are special to him above all other creatures on earth. He created life....to live and be in fellowship with Him. Even those who don't believe in Him, he still thinks about you everyday, and longs for you to accept Him.

The issue really is if you are a Christian or not.

If you are a Christian and for whatever reason end up offing yourself, you commit a sin - yes, but that sin I don't believe will cause God to revoke your belief in His Son Jesus. Best to leave it up to God to deal with on His terms.

However if one isn't a Christian, the ramifications of your deed will be eternal separation from the Creator. This has nothing to do with the act of killing yourself, but the lack of belief in His Son Jesus at the time of your death. You would have effectively removed any possibility of getting right with God.

Find it a very strange situation D7. It's not too often you get a very cloudy aspect of morality in any Christian denomination. What I find more strange is that it is mentioned in the Bible, relationing to some high profile characters and yet no clear answer was given on the consequences of their actions.

In a way this is quite disappointing because maybe if the Christian churches stood firmly against suicide (like they have done with contraception, homosexuality, etc) it may have persuaded people to seek another option than take their own life. Maybe that is nieve, but maybe it might have forced people contemplating suicide to think about the consequences of their own salvation if they carry out this act.

PhinPhan1227
03-22-2009, 11:31 AM
Find it a very strange situation D7. It's not too often you get a very cloudy aspect of morality in any Christian denomination. What I find more strange is that it is mentioned in the Bible, relationing to some high profile characters and yet no clear answer was given on the consequences of their actions.

In a way this is quite disappointing because maybe if the Christian churches stood firmly against suicide (like they have done with contraception, homosexuality, etc) it may have persuaded people to seek another option than take their own life. Maybe that is nieve, but maybe it might have forced people contemplating suicide to think about the consequences of their own salvation if they carry out this act.

I assume you are speaking of the Protestant Churches? Because the last time I checked, the Catholic Church has stated quite clearly that suicide is a mortal sin, and won't even allow a person who killed themselves to be buried on holy ground.

emeraldfin
03-22-2009, 12:25 PM
I assume you are speaking of the Protestant Churches? Because the last time I checked, the Catholic Church has stated quite clearly that suicide is a mortal sin, and won't even allow a person who killed themselves to be buried on holy ground.

Well at the funeral that I attended during the week, the chap was buried in a Catholic graveyard with some of his family, so I dont think the Catholic Church are as strict on it as that, at least not overhere anyway.

Dolphan7
03-22-2009, 02:32 PM
Find it a very strange situation D7. It's not too often you get a very cloudy aspect of morality in any Christian denomination. What I find more strange is that it is mentioned in the Bible, relationing to some high profile characters and yet no clear answer was given on the consequences of their actions.

In a way this is quite disappointing because maybe if the Christian churches stood firmly against suicide (like they have done with contraception, homosexuality, etc) it may have persuaded people to seek another option than take their own life. Maybe that is nieve, but maybe it might have forced people contemplating suicide to think about the consequences of their own salvation if they carry out this act.Every church I know of stands firmly against Suicide.

Jimi
03-22-2009, 03:28 PM
However if one isn't a Christian, the ramifications of your deed will be eternal separation from the Creator. This has nothing to do with the act of killing yourself, but the lack of belief in His Son Jesus at the time of your death. You would have effectively removed any possibility of getting right with God.

This part i always wondered about. So does some tribal child born into that environment who never even hears the name Jesus Christ in his life before he dies go to hell?

Dolphan7
03-22-2009, 05:25 PM
This part i always wondered about. So does some tribal child born into that environment who never even hears the name Jesus Christ in his life before he dies go to hell?This is a very common question. The quick answer is - No. If this child has not reached the age of accountability, then he/she cannot fathom and understand the meaning behind accepting Jesus Christ and what the ramifications are of rejecting Him. This applies to any culture, even America.

If this child has reached the age of accountability, then the answer is no, they would not be condemned to Hell for not knowing anything about Jesus. But.....they very well could be destined for hell based on other criterion.

Romans 1 tells us that we are all without excuse before the one true God.


RO 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
RO 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
RO 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.In the end it is best to leave those souls future to God, who we know and trust will do the right thing.

Jimi
03-23-2009, 08:06 AM
This is a very common question. The quick answer is - No. If this child has not reached the age of accountability, then he/she cannot fathom and understand the meaning behind accepting Jesus Christ and what the ramifications are of rejecting Him. This applies to any culture, even America.

If this child has reached the age of accountability, then the answer is no, they would not be condemned to Hell for not knowing anything about Jesus. But.....they very well could be destined for hell based on other criterion.

Romans 1 tells us that we are all without excuse before the one true God.

In the end it is best to leave those souls future to God, who we know and trust will do the right thing.

This is what i had commonly been told in the past. Makes sense, but i was more reffering to a tribesman who grows to an accountable age and then dies,still never once hearing Jesus' name. What happens to him?

Also, is this more interpretation or is it actually somewhere in the bible?

syborg
03-23-2009, 08:55 AM
This is what i had commonly been told in the past. Makes sense, but i was more reffering to a tribesman who grows to an accountable age and then dies,still never once hearing Jesus' name. What happens to him?

Also, is this more interpretation or is it actually somewhere in the bible?

I believe that we are judged by the law. .
We all have a conscience and then there are the 10 commandments.
The world is under this OT law it is when you become born again accepting Christ that you then fall into the new covenant of grace.

Rdskn4lyf21
03-23-2009, 09:09 AM
If they are a Christian, they will go to heaven. No ifs, ands, or buts about it; no stopping at "go" either.

John 10:28 says this: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Once you are saved, nothing can undo that. I'm sorry for your loss. I know too many people that have taken their lives :(

Dolphan7
03-23-2009, 10:34 AM
This is what i had commonly been told in the past. Makes sense, but i was more reffering to a tribesman who grows to an accountable age and then dies,still never once hearing Jesus' name. What happens to him?

Also, is this more interpretation or is it actually somewhere in the bible?
Read Romans 1.

jared81
03-23-2009, 04:22 PM
sorry for your loss, ive been to two funerals over the past 3 years of people who have overdosed because of depression.

Dolphan7
03-23-2009, 05:02 PM
If they are a Christian, they will go to heaven. No ifs, ands, or buts about it; no stopping at "go" either.

John 10:28 says this: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Once you are saved, nothing can undo that. I'm sorry for your loss. I know too many people that have taken their lives :(No one can take your salvation away from you, except yourself.

I know many who have believed, and turned away from the faith for various reasons. Their salvation is lost, until such a time as they return to the fold.

Rdskn4lyf21
03-23-2009, 06:38 PM
No one can take your salvation away from you, except yourself.

I know many who have believed, and turned away from the faith for various reasons. Their salvation is lost, until such a time as they return to the fold.

You can't "lose" the gift of eternal life though. Once you accept Christ that's it. Yeah it can become dormant, but it can never be undone.

Dolphan7
03-23-2009, 07:23 PM
You can't "lose" the gift of eternal life though. Once you accept Christ that's it. Yeah it can become dormant, but it can never be undone.
Sure you can. We choose Jesus of our own freewill. We reject Jesus of our own freewill.

Jesus said "All who believe in me shall have eternal life".....if one decides they do not believe in Jesus any longer, as has happened, then they do not have eternal life.

Rdskn4lyf21
03-23-2009, 08:11 PM
Sure you can. We choose Jesus of our own freewill. We reject Jesus of our own freewill.

Jesus said "All who believe in me shall have eternal life".....if one decides they do not believe in Jesus any longer, as has happened, then they do not have eternal life.

That's a horrible skewing of the Word. You are deriving your own meaning and adding your own addition to that verse.

Like I stated, John 10:28 (even through 30) completely support (without any human addition such as above) that once gained salvation cannot be lost:

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Just for fun, let's go along with the thought that salvation can be lost. You stated that rejecting Jesus does this. What constitutes that? I'd say falling into sin. So what, if you sin before you die you've rejected Christ, lose your salvation, and spend an eternity in hell? That's absurd.

PhinPhan1227
03-23-2009, 11:17 PM
Well at the funeral that I attended during the week, the chap was buried in a Catholic graveyard with some of his family, so I dont think the Catholic Church are as strict on it as that, at least not overhere anyway.

I think we can all gree that the Catholic Church varies from nation to nation, and region to region within those nations. Heck, in the States we have "Charismatic Catholics" who are hard to distinguish from liberal Protestant churches. But the "official" stance by the Catholic Church is quite clear. Suicide is a mortal sin and precludes last rites and internment in holy ground.

Dolphan7
03-24-2009, 12:41 AM
That's a horrible skewing of the Word. You are deriving your own meaning and adding your own addition to that verse.
Really? I picked some better ones below. Check 'em out.

Like I stated, John 10:28 (even through 30) completely support (without any human addition such as above) that once gained salvation cannot be lost:

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
See below.

Just for fun, let's go along with the thought that salvation can be lost. You stated that rejecting Jesus does this. What constitutes that? I'd say falling into sin. So what, if you sin before you die you've rejected Christ, lose your salvation, and spend an eternity in hell? That's absurd.Keep reading. It isn't about simply sinning and repenting for that sin, which we all do as believers. It is more than that.

Ok so you are a "once saved always saved" believer, or Perserverance of the Saints.. I am familiar with the doctrine. It derives from what is called Calvinism, or some call it Pre-destination or Sovereign Grace. Look it up. It isn't supported by sound biblical exegesis. Basically is states that God chooses those who will be saved. The rest?.........sorry, the tribe has spoken.

What you are basically saying is that once I become a believer, I go through all the right steps to become a Christian, and then I can basically do whatever I want to do with my life after that...and it doesn't matter...I still go to heaven. I could live like the devil, and still go to heaven. Because according to once saved always saved doctrine, I can't lose my salvation. There is no consequence to a life lead by sin. I hope that makes sense to you because that is exactly what you are advocating. The Calvinist will then say, well...you were never saved to begin with. And the correct response to that is - the process of getting right with God is the exact same process you the Calvinist says is the right and correct process to get right with God. So if it is good enough for one, it is good enough for all.

It makes no sense biblically.

First lets take a look at John 10:27-28.
JN 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
JN 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. Please key on the words "no one". What Jesus is saying is that once you are a Christian, no one else in the world, including the devil, can take that away from you. No one. But that doesn't mean you can't jump right out of Jesus hands of your own free will. I've seen it happen, sadly, too many times. Also the word "follow" is writen in the present indicative actice in the Greek. This means "continuous action", in other words, the sheep need to continue to follow, continue as His sheep.

Let's check out what the bible has to say regarding who is saved, and how they are saved, and what is required of a believer after they are saved.

All can be saved, not just some.


JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
We need to continue to obey Him.

LK 6:46 “ Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
LK 6:47 “ Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:
LK 6:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.

LK 12:42 And the Lord said, “ Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
LK 12:43 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
LK 12:44 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
LK 12:45 “But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
LK 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
MT 28:19 “ Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
MT 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;Our deeds do matter.


MT 16:27 “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.Read Mat 25:31-46. Judgement day, where we will indeed be judged by our deeds.


JN 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
JN 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
RO 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
RO 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
RO 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
RO 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
RO 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
2CO 5:9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
2CO 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2CO 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
JN 15:10 “ If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
GAL 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
GAL 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
GAL 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
COL 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,
HEB 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
HEB 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
HEB 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,And here is the kicker.


HEB 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
HEB 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
HEB 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
HEB 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
HEB 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
HEB 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
HEB 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
HEB 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
HEB 10:30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
HEB 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.And then Jesus Himself describes the parable of the 4 soils. Clearly there will be those who believe and then fall away. It happens.


MT 13:18 “ Hear then the parable of the sower.
MT 13:19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
MT 13:20 “The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
MT 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
MT 13:22 “And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
MT 13:23 “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Rdskn4lyf21
03-24-2009, 08:26 AM
So then going by the following verses, you can't even be forgiven:

HEB 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
HEB 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

...and again, since we are all human and sinful, we absolutely will:

HEB 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.


Going off what you are saying, our deeds and acts play a part in our salvation. That just is not the case....

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Also, who's to say your actions were "good enough" to get you into heaven?

Dolphan7
03-24-2009, 01:17 PM
So then going by the following verses, you can't even be forgiven:

HEB 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
HEB 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

...and again, since we are all human and sinful, we absolutely will:

HEB 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.Really? Is that what it is saying? Key point that you highlighted tells us that continuing to willfully sin will effect ones salvation. Also note that you highlighted as well that the goal is to move people to repentance, but in the end it is up to them to repent of their sins.

According to Jesus, there is only one sin that is not forgivable.


MT 12:31 “ Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Going off what you are saying, our deeds and acts play a part in our salvation. That just is not the case....

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."
This verse is explaining that we can't earn our salvation by being good enough, by our works. Faith in Jesus Christ is paramount in our salvation. If we are to earn our salvation by good deeds, then it takes away from the Grace and mercy and the sacrifice Jesus made on the Cross. Our deeds and works do play a part in our "continued" obedience to God, and by continued falling away it will effect our salvation as has already been made clear.

James writes -
JAS 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
JAS 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.The key differential in Ephesians and James is that in Ephesians Paul is telling them that they cannot earn salvation simply by good deeds, where as James is telling them that true faith will create good deeds, and that lack of good deeds is a sign of unbelief. We are saved by faith alone, and our obedience to God thereafter will produce good works, or like Jesus says good fruit. But we can lose our salvation by not continuing to be obedient to God's word, this obedience is our deeds, our works, our fruit. Remember the parable of the 4 soils.


Also, who's to say your actions were "good enough" to get you into heaven?The bible. It tells me that I need to believe in Jesus Christ, and live according to his word. I do that as best I can, and when I stumble, I repent, ask for forgiveness, and try not to continue in that sin.

PhinPhan1227
03-24-2009, 02:52 PM
Question for the Mods...if a single post contains too many quotes from the
Bible, are we opening FinHeaven up to a lawsuit from God? ;)

Dolphan7
03-24-2009, 03:42 PM
:lol:

Rdskn4lyf21
03-24-2009, 07:05 PM
Really? Is that what it is saying? Key point that you highlighted tells us that continuing to willfully sin will effect ones salvation. Also note that you highlighted as well that the goal is to move people to repentance, but in the end it is up to them to repent of their sins.

According to Jesus, there is only one sin that is not forgivable.

I highlighted those because any sin we commit is of our own free will. According to those that you pointed out once you did sin and fall away again (according to you this loses your salvation), then: HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. You can't become saved again.....



But we can lose our salvation by not continuing to be obedient to God's word, this obedience is our deeds, our works, our fruit. Remember the parable of the 4 soils.

The bible. It tells me that I need to believe in Jesus Christ, and live according to his word. I do that as best I can, and when I stumble, I repent, ask for forgiveness, and try not to continue in that sin.

I'm sorry, but God gives the gift of Salvation, man cannot undo that gift. Hypothetically, if someone who is saved commits a sin and does not repent before they die, then they are damned to hell? That's what you are saying.

#1dolphinsfan
03-24-2009, 07:12 PM
I think pretty much most all religions would think that is a sin

Dolphan7
03-24-2009, 07:55 PM
I highlighted those because any sin we commit is of our own free will. According to those that you pointed out once you did sin and fall away again (according to you this loses your salvation), then: HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. You can't become saved again.....
If that is what you want to believe this verse is saying, then that is up to you. Jesus has already stated that there is only one sin that is unforgivable. That sin isn't one that is easy to commit, if possible at all. You seemed to miss that part of my post. Jesus' point is that if one repents and asks for forgiveness, we will be forgiven and thus reconciled to Him. But we must first seek that forgiveness. We have to do that ourselves. You seem to be hung up on Heb 6:6. Here is a very thorough commentary on it.

http://www.geocities.com/bobesay/Apostasy.html




I'm sorry, but God gives the gift of Salvation, man cannot undo that gift. Hypothetically, if someone who is saved commits a sin and does not repent before they die, then they are damned to hell? That's what you are saying.No need to apologize. Maybe you shouldn't try to guess what I am saying and instead read the bible verses and understand what they are saying?

God does indeed give us the free gift of salvation through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his only Son. This is true.

And it is up to each of us to accept that or reject it, of our own free will.

And once we accept that gift, we can also lose our salvation as I have pointed out to you in prior posts.

Look. We are all sinners before God. No one is without sin. Even when we get right with God, we will continue to be sinners in some way shape or form. What we do from that point on is very important. If we continue to abide by the worlds standards, the worlds way of living, rejecting Gods principles and continue to sin without remorse, repentence, guilty conscience......then there is no salvation. Simply believing in God and then continuing down the same road you were on before won't work.

However if one lives their life like God expects us to, and lives as sinless of a life as we can, and inconsistantly sins, and then repents, then our salvation is secure.

It really isn't that complicated of an issue.

syborg
03-24-2009, 08:13 PM
So I can lose my salvation and my dad can stop being my dad or my mother my mother. .

NO I see your using scripture to validate your point. . but I just need to say. . I was born of my mother and father. . regardless of what happens they are my parents. . when you are bought with a price as I was then I am Gods adopted son. . I will not be 'unsaved' because I choose to get drunk rather than go to church (not that I do do this) other wise Jesus sacrafice was for nought and the cross is no victory at all. .
This would be a lie and God cannot lie as he is Truth. . I believe we will miss out on the good that God has for us should we not follow him but that he will still receive us into heaven on the final day. . just with a smaller mansion. .
God did not die once for all just to take back the free gift because of my behaviour. .

before you worry that I keep refering to myself I assure you I am walking with God and happy. .

Rdskn4lyf21
03-24-2009, 08:14 PM
If that is what you want to believe this verse is saying, then that is up to you. Jesus has already stated that there is only one sin that is unforgivable. That sin isn't one that is easy to commit, if possible at all. You seemed to miss that part of my post. Jesus' point is that if one repents and asks for forgiveness, we will be forgiven and thus reconciled to Him. But we must first seek that forgiveness. We have to do that ourselves. You seem to be hung up on Heb 6:6. Here is a very thorough commentary on it.

http://www.geocities.com/bobesay/Apostasy.html


I'm not hung up on that verse at all. I was just using what you had given me to go against what you were saying. I skimmed through the link, I'll read it with some focus later (I'm watching America be lied to right now, sorry that's for another forum :D).



No need to apologize. Maybe you shouldn't try to guess what I am saying and instead read the bible verses and understand what they are saying?

God does indeed give us the free gift of salvation through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his only Son. This is true.

And it is up to each of us to accept that or reject it, of our own free will.

And once we accept that gift, we can also lose our salvation as I have pointed out to you in prior posts.

Look. We are all sinners before God. No one is without sin. Even when we get right with God, we will continue to be sinners in some way shape or form. What we do from that point on is very important. If we continue to abide by the worlds standards, the worlds way of living, rejecting Gods principles and continue to sin without remorse, repentence, guilty conscience......then there is no salvation. Simply believing in God and then continuing down the same road you were on before won't work.


I'm not guessing at all what you are saying - it is clear: you can lose your salvation, but you can gain it back through striving to correct your mistakes and asking for forgiveness.


However if one lives their life like God expects us to, and lives as sinless of a life as we can, and inconsistantly sins, and then repents, then our salvation is secure.

It really isn't that complicated of an issue.

It isn't that complicated of an issue. The Bible states that once we are in God's hands we can never be taken out and when the Holy Spirit comes in us, he will never leave.....

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

In John:

15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bea in you.

Dolphan7
03-24-2009, 09:14 PM
I'm not hung up on that verse at all. I was just using what you had given me to go against what you were saying. I skimmed through the link, I'll read it with some focus later (I'm watching America be lied to right now, sorry that's for another forum :D).

The whole point of Heb 6:6 was that you CAN fall away from God, and lose your salvation. That was why I posted it.



I'm not guessing at all what you are saying - it is clear: you can lose your salvation, but you can gain it back through striving to correct your mistakes and asking for forgiveness.
Very good. But this is not what I am saying, it is what the bible actually teaches. I am simply repeating it.



It isn't that complicated of an issue. The Bible states that once we are in God's hands we can never be taken out and when the Holy Spirit comes in us, he will never leave.....WE can never be taken out, but we can choose to leave. The Holy Spirit will stay with us forever, but we can stick him in a closet. Look I have already shown you that you can lose your salvation. Argue those verses that show that, and not try to keep repeating the same Once saved always saved mantra. Those verses either say you can lose your salvation, or they don't. Prove that they don't.


Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. LOL. Did you read the entire verse 30? Here it is in entirety.


EPH 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.Notice the part about Grieve the Holy Spirit?We can turn our back on God and grieve the Holy Spirit by doing so. Just because the HS dwells within us, does not mean that we can't turn away from God. The HS will simply be dormant, not working within you to make you into what God calls you to be.


John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.No one is taking it away. It is being thrown away by the believer. There is a responsibility of every believer to obey God once they have been saved. It isn't about getting right with God, but living right for God from that point forward. You just don't get saved and then go on doing what you were doing. You don't get to keep sinning like you are a heathen. Belief demands change, and a good heart will produce good fruit, and a bad heart will produce bad fruit and that bad fruit will get thrown into the fire.


MT 7:19 “ Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
In John:

15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bea in you.LOL. "If you love me, you will obey what I command"....and so the opposite would be true no? .....and if you don't obey what I command you don't love me and don't have eternal security.


Look. I have already showed you the verses that clearly define that we can lose our salvation, we can walk away from God, we can reject Him, we can fall away. I can do this all day, but I do have to teach a SMall Group tonight and must get ready for that.

Look brother you probably were raised with OSAS. It is very common. Many churches teach it, but.....that doesn't mean it is true. It is a man made doctrine from the 1600's, Calvinism. The bible doesn't support it. No matter how you were brought up, no matter how many believe it, no matter that churches teach it....it still isn't biblical truth. You owe it to yourself to understand that the truth cannot contradict itself. It cannot support both doctrines, only one. OSAS isn't the one.

Dolphan7
03-24-2009, 09:36 PM
So I can lose my salvation and my dad can stop being my dad or my mother my mother. .

NO I see your using scripture to validate your point. . but I just need to say. . I was born of my mother and father. . regardless of what happens they are my parents. . when you are bought with a price as I was then I am Gods adopted son. . I will not be 'unsaved' because I choose to get drunk rather than go to church (not that I do do this) other wise Jesus sacrafice was for nought and the cross is no victory at all. .
This would be a lie and God cannot lie as he is Truth. . I believe we will miss out on the good that God has for us should we not follow him but that he will still receive us into heaven on the final day. . just with a smaller mansion. .
God did not die once for all just to take back the free gift because of my behaviour. .

before you worry that I keep refering to myself I assure you I am walking with God and happy. .I am not going to repeat myself, go read these verses and tell me what they mean.


HEB 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
HEB 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
HEB 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
HEB 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

HEB 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
HEB 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
HEB 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
HEB 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
HEB 10:30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
HEB 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

ABrownLamp
03-25-2009, 01:59 AM
It's pointless to even debate this stuff. The most confusing part about sin is that according to Christians, a sin is a sin is a sin. In other words, stealing from CVS is a sin just like murder. God just doesnt distinguish between varying degrees of sin. So if you die by natural causes or you die from suicide- you die with sin. You die as a convicted rapist/murderer, you die as the man who cured cancer, you die with sin. The Bibles real unclear as to what happens after this point. So hey, do whatever you want- just believe and ask for forgiveness later.

Rdskn4lyf21
03-25-2009, 08:23 AM
WE can never be taken out, but we can choose to leave. The Holy Spirit will stay with us forever, but we can stick him in a closet. Look I have already shown you that you can lose your salvation. Argue those verses that show that, and not try to keep repeating the same Once saved always saved mantra. Those verses either say you can lose your salvation, or they don't. Prove that they don't.

LOL. Did you read the entire verse 30? Here it is in entirety.
Notice the part about Grieve the Holy Spirit?We can turn our back on God and grieve the Holy Spirit by doing so. Just because the HS dwells within us, does not mean that we can't turn away from God. The HS will simply be dormant, not working within you to make you into what God calls you to be.



Man cannot undo God's gift to us, or it wouldn't be just that. I've shown verses that state that once we are in God's hands, we can never be taken out. We can go back and forth for eternity with verses that can be interpreted either way.


Look. I have already showed you the verses that clearly define that we can lose our salvation, we can walk away from God, we can reject Him, we can fall away. I can do this all day, but I do have to teach a SMall Group tonight and must get ready for that.

Look brother you probably were raised with OSAS. It is very common. Many churches teach it, but.....that doesn't mean it is true. It is a man made doctrine from the 1600's, Calvinism. The bible doesn't support it. No matter how you were brought up, no matter how many believe it, no matter that churches teach it....it still isn't biblical truth. You owe it to yourself to understand that the truth cannot contradict itself. It cannot support both doctrines, only one. OSAS isn't the one.

We can reject God, but as you stated He (the Holy Spirit) will never leave us. I wasn't raised in a church that supported OSAS, but I did learn it and the evidences for it from every theology class I took throughout high school.

I'll agree to disagree with you. OSAS is accurate. You cannot lose your salvation, you cannot remove the Holy Spirit from yourself. Once we receive God's gift, nothing and no one can take it away.

Dolphan7
03-25-2009, 11:54 AM
It's pointless to even debate this stuff. The most confusing part about sin is that according to Christians, a sin is a sin is a sin. In other words, stealing from CVS is a sin just like murder. God just doesnt distinguish between varying degrees of sin. So if you die by natural causes or you die from suicide- you die with sin. You die as a convicted rapist/murderer, you die as the man who cured cancer, you die with sin. The Bibles real unclear as to what happens after this point. So hey, do whatever you want- just believe and ask for forgiveness later.Ah glad to see you have been reading your bible. :up:

Oh and it clears that up for you if you continue reading it. I promise.:d-day:

Dolphan7
03-25-2009, 12:12 PM
Man cannot undo God's gift to us, or it wouldn't be just that. I've shown verses that state that once we are in God's hands, we can never be taken out. We can go back and forth for eternity with verses that can be interpreted either way.



We can reject God, but as you stated He (the Holy Spirit) will never leave us. I wasn't raised in a church that supported OSAS, but I did learn it and the evidences for it from every theology class I took throughout high school.

I'll agree to disagree with you. OSAS is accurate. You cannot lose your salvation, you cannot remove the Holy Spirit from yourself. Once we receive God's gift, nothing and no one can take it away.


Well we will agree to disagree then. Unfortunately, it isn't going to be resolved in a football message board. But it is an issue of salvation. Both of us can't be right, meaning the bible can't say both things, so one has to be the right one, and the other is false teaching.

Since OSAS stems from a 16th century heretic, that is 1600 years after Jesus and the NT, I will go with the original NT writings any day.

I have provided sound biblical evidence to the contrary, and have dozens more, plus study after study.....you stick to one verse. Heb 6:6 and 10:26 still go unanswered. Explain to me what these verses mean.

I have never disputed the fact that man cannot undue God's gift to us. God's gift is ever present, and always offered to "anyone" who believes in Him. It is up to each indivisual to accept that gift, or reject it, or throw it away. Free Will. Remember that? That isn't what we are talking about here though.

I encourage you to keep an open mind on the issue.

It has been a good discussion.:up:

Rdskn4lyf21
03-25-2009, 02:24 PM
Well we will agree to disagree then. Unfortunately, it isn't going to be resolved in a football message board. But it is an issue of salvation. Both of us can't be right, meaning the bible can't say both things, so one has to be the right one, and the other is false teaching.

Since OSAS stems from a 16th century heretic, that is 1600 years after Jesus and the NT, I will go with the original NT writings any day.

I have provided sound biblical evidence to the contrary, and have dozens more, plus study after study.....you stick to one verse. Heb 6:6 and 10:26 still go unanswered. Explain to me what these verses mean.

I have never disputed the fact that man cannot undue God's gift to us. God's gift is ever present, and always offered to "anyone" who believes in Him. It is up to each indivisual to accept that gift, or reject it, or throw it away. Free Will. Remember that? That isn't what we are talking about here though.

I encourage you to keep an open mind on the issue.

It has been a good discussion.:up:

Here I was hoping we'd be able to solve all of the world's problems and pressing questions on an NFL message board ;)

The one verse I'm sticking to is John 10:28 as well as Ephesians 2:8-10. Those are NT verses. Others seemingly contradict what is being taught there. I don't have the Biblical expertise to explain that away (yet!) and I am believe in the passages I've mentioned.

It is our free will to choose to accept His gift. Once that happens we cannot undo that.

Also, I always keep an open mind. I know practically nothing and am always open to learning and correcting thought.

:hi5:

Dolphan7
03-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Here I was hoping we'd be able to solve all of the world's problems and pressing questions on an NFL message board ;)

The one verse I'm sticking to is John 10:28 as well as Ephesians 2:8-10. Those are NT verses. Others seemingly contradict what is being taught there. I don't have the Biblical expertise to explain that away (yet!) and I am believe in the passages I've mentioned.

It is our free will to choose to accept His gift. Once that happens we cannot undo that.

Also, I always keep an open mind. I know practically nothing and am always open to learning and correcting thought.

:hi5:Slide over to the POFO and we can solve all the worlds problems there.

Let's put this one on the shelf for a while.:up:

PhinPhan1227
03-25-2009, 03:12 PM
It's pointless to even debate this stuff. The most confusing part about sin is that according to Christians, a sin is a sin is a sin. In other words, stealing from CVS is a sin just like murder. God just doesnt distinguish between varying degrees of sin. So if you die by natural causes or you die from suicide- you die with sin. You die as a convicted rapist/murderer, you die as the man who cured cancer, you die with sin. The Bibles real unclear as to what happens after this point. So hey, do whatever you want- just believe and ask for forgiveness later.

Oh, so now we're going with the SWEEEPING generalities. All Christians are alike, all believe the same things. I hate to break this to you Brown, but that is not the case. The Catholics view different sins differently. There are mortal sins, and lesser sins. And all that aside, it doesn't really matter how any Christian views sin. It only matters how God views sin.

No Christian sits in judgement of my soul. So it doesn't matter one ounce how another Christian views my, or anyone elses sins. It's between me and God.

That's something that virtually every Christian SHOULD agree on, but even there, I promise you that some will disagree. But hey, it's always easier to dismiss people by making sweeping generalities about them.

ABrownLamp
03-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Oh, so now we're going with the SWEEEPING generalities. All Christians are alike, all believe the same things. I hate to break this to you Brown, but that is not the case. The Catholics view different sins differently. There are mortal sins, and lesser sins. And all that aside, it doesn't really matter how any Christian views sin. It only matters how God views sin.

No Christian sits in judgement of my soul. So it doesn't matter one ounce how another Christian views my, or anyone elses sins. It's between me and God.

That's something that virtually every Christian SHOULD agree on, but even there, I promise you that some will disagree. But hey, it's always easier to dismiss people by making sweeping generalities about them.

I was talking about literalists. There are obviously Christians who are well educated scientists as well. In the Bible God says a sin is a sin. So my point is why debate whether on not suicide will prevent you from getting in heaven. Just believe baby!

And its real easy to say all that matters is what God thinks, isnt it? Well how would you know any better than me? I mean I could say the same thing to you about your beliefs. The difference is that I dont try to tell people I know

Dolphan7
03-25-2009, 04:49 PM
I was talking about literalists. There are obviously Christians who are well educated scientists as well. In the Bible God says a sin is a sin. So my point is why debate whether on not suicide will prevent you from getting in heaven. Just believe baby!

And its real easy to say all that matters is what God thinks, isnt it? Well how would you know any better than me? I mean I could say the same thing to you about your beliefs. The difference is that I dont try to tell people I knowIt isn't a debate as much as a discussion. Someone asked a question. We discussed the answers. Should the original poster not have ever asked the question? This is a forum you know.

PhinPhan1227
03-31-2009, 01:32 PM
I was talking about literalists. There are obviously Christians who are well educated scientists as well. In the Bible God says a sin is a sin. So my point is why debate whether on not suicide will prevent you from getting in heaven. Just believe baby!

And its real easy to say all that matters is what God thinks, isnt it? Well how would you know any better than me? I mean I could say the same thing to you about your beliefs. The difference is that I dont try to tell people I know


Brown, get five "literalists" in the same room and have them start talking about the Bible. You will STILL get five different viewpoints and interpretations. That's because the Bible isn't stereo instructions. Peg A doesn't fit into slot B. Religion is a messy business, and I think God likes it that way. If everything was spelled out easily, we wouldn't have to work at it. And for God, it's not the destination, it's the journey. Think of it like Democracy. It's actualy the hardest form of government because it requires the most effort from the governed. Same thing with religion. If you want it to work, you have to work at it. If God made everything obvious, we would all be able to just sit around and munch grass like sheep.

Dolphan7
03-31-2009, 02:11 PM
Brown, get five "literalists" in the same room and have them start talking about the Bible. You will STILL get five different viewpoints and interpretations. That's because the Bible isn't stereo instructions. Peg A doesn't fit into slot B. Religion is a messy business, and I think God likes it that way. If everything was spelled out easily, we wouldn't have to work at it. And for God, it's not the destination, it's the journey. Think of it like Democracy. It's actualy the hardest form of government because it requires the most effort from the governed. Same thing with religion. If you want it to work, you have to work at it. If God made everything obvious, we would all be able to just sit around and munch grass like sheep.No you are so wrong on this 1227. You take 5 literalists, and you will get 7 different viewpoints!:d-day:

PhinPhan1227
04-03-2009, 10:03 AM
No you are so wrong on this 1227. You take 5 literalists, and you will get 7 different viewpoints!:d-day:


ROFL!! Many thanks, I stand humbly corrected.

Jimi
04-08-2009, 08:02 AM
The whole a sin is a sin thing seems pretty wierd to most. I dont know where i sit on this, but it doesnt seem far-fetched to me.

God gave us a life free of sin and pain, but human nature and curiosity ruined that with the eating of the forbidden fruit. This brought all of the sins on man from petty theft to murder. God is saddened by the fact any of this happens. Thats why salvation is so important, its not like crossing items off a list of all the bad things youve done, its a lifetime apology that we cannot live how God intended us to live.

milldog
04-08-2009, 08:35 AM
This part i always wondered about. So does some tribal child born into that environment who never even hears the name Jesus Christ in his life before he dies go to hell?

I believe no! I believe in God and try to live my life as obediently as I can. Am I perfect, no, but who is? (God, yes) The only real problem I have with the church is each denomination seems to have its own sets of should and should not's set forward and if you don't do this or that, you're not following God's path. BS! I don't believe God works like that and I don't believe God would cast some little child who never had the opportunity to know him. I have a problem with fundamentalism and of the belief we all can choose to worship how we choose. God is GREAT!

Pandarilla 72
09-29-2009, 05:53 AM
Mind if I throw in a great story from India's Mahabharratta. You dumb ***** will love this story!
So Krishna's wife in a previous incarnation is meditating to achieve a state of incorruptability (just so she can reincarnate and be deemed worthy enough to be his wife). When lo and behold an astral Demon lord flies across the sky where she is meditating, he becomes so taken with her beauty he decides to instantly materialize into a pleasing fleshy form. But, as soon as he approaches her, she immediately recognizes intuitively that he is a demon in human form...(here's where it gets good). She immediately offs herself simply because she was seen by him and has contaminated her simply by looking at her (now that's chastity). Was she to suffer in neverending hell because of her suicide? absurd.
And if I offed myself after reading such rigid and narrowminded dogma debated by fools (which is obvious by the rapid fire of biblical quotes), God would surely meet me afterwards and say "dude, how did you manage to last that long(I split after the title)?"
you're welcome!

aesop
09-30-2009, 09:47 PM
Could possibly be the worst story I have ever heard. After you said "Mind if I.." you should've figured in ample time for me to respond before you continued.

Pandarilla 72
10-05-2009, 02:55 AM
LOL, I know, must've been in a cranky mood when I wrote it:chuckle:. It's just I get frustrated when I see people argue so flippantly, only to congratulate each other over a good debate over such a grave topic.