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Miamian
10-16-2003, 10:35 PM
The Palestinian Authority's security force has arrested seven militants in connection with the bombing that killed the three American security agents.

Of course Israeli babies, children, and pregnant women, among others aren't sufficient reason. They had have bad pr with the US to start doing something.

Barbarian
10-16-2003, 10:45 PM
I agree that it's disgusting that it took this to get them to do something... but it's a step in the right direction... sadly though, it's probaly the only one that they will make. :(

Dolfan02
10-21-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Miamian
The Palestinian Authority's security force has arrested seven militants in connection with the bombing that killed the three American security agents.

Of course Israeli babies, children, and pregnant women, among others aren't sufficient reason. They had have bad pr with the US to start doing something.

I've read these comments repeatedly but I don't understand what you're suggesting? Or what your point is?

Miamian
10-21-2003, 07:57 PM
I'm suggesting nothing. I'm saying flat out that the only reason that they've arrested anyone is that they don't want bad public relations.

Over 4,000 people have died on both sides of the conflict. All of this carnage would have been avoided if they would've arrested the militants. In addition, months before both sides signed the Road Map, the PA's position was that it should be implemented without any modifications. One of the requirements of the Road Map was that the PA dismantle militant groups like Hamas and Jihad. The Israelis started fulfilling their responsibilities by razing settlements, but then the PA said that they would not dismantle the militants. All they were trying to do was to appear more conciliatory when in fact they had no interest in the Road Map.

They're despicable.

Dolfan02
10-22-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Miamian
I'm suggesting nothing. I'm saying flat out that the only reason that they've arrested anyone is that they don't want bad public relations.

Over 4,000 people have died on both sides of the conflict. All of this carnage would have been avoided if they would've arrested the militants. In addition, months before both sides signed the Road Map, the PA's position was that it should be implemented without any modifications. One of the requirements of the Road Map was that the PA dismantle militant groups like Hamas and Jihad. The Israelis started fulfilling their responsibilities by razing settlements, but then the PA said that they would not dismantle the militants. All they were trying to do was to appear more conciliatory when in fact they had no interest in the Road Map.

They're despicable.

First, you need to provide legitmate links that shows where Israel has indeed dismantled "settlements" or over 60 neighborhood communites that have been built in the West Bank since Sharon took the postion of Prime Minister of Israel. Only 1 (one) uncompleted settlement has been brought down to the ground out of close to 200 between the Gaza Strip and West Bank which were constructed by forcibly tearing down Palestinian homes and causing familis to be separated and flee for their lives while tanks fire upon them with guns and bulldozers crash their homes. Whats key to realize here is that Israel is running out of land for the demand of its people. They are trying to build new territories for Jews only, in land thats not solely theirs. Palestinians have been pushed back from their homes since the end of World War II when the Jews wanted their homeland "back". Its now been several decades that Israeli-built fences have separated Palestinian husband from wife, mother from child. I'm not trying to side only with Palestine, I agree they are sometimes resulting to violence which is never the answer. Both sides need to chill with forcing violence, but I do see Palenstine being pushed around by Israel. Palestine is in dire need of its own state with its own boundaries and Israel doesn't want that to happen. Hamas has been set in the American mind as terror and violence. But its actually quite weird for lack of better word. It represents the force of controlled violence (like an army) for Palestine, which is why they don't want to break them up. But they also provide community services and political movements for their people. Hamas is actually their defense is what I'm trying to say. In all, I believe a Palestinian nation needs to be recognized to stop the construction of Israeli settlements in territorial land claims where families live. That is illegal and it causes violence unfortunately, which should never be the answer.

Miamian
10-22-2003, 10:16 PM
First, you need to provide legitmate links that shows where Israel has indeed dismantled "settlements" or over 60 neighborhood communites that have been built in the West Bank since Sharon took the postion of Prime Minister of Israel. Only 1 (one) uncompleted settlement has been brought down to the ground out of close to 200 between the Gaza Strip and West Bank which were constructed by forcibly tearing down Palestinian homes and causing familis to be separated and flee for their lives while tanks fire upon them with guns and bulldozers crash their homes. If you follow the recent history, months before the road map was signed the PA stated that it agreed to in entirety and without deviation. Israel expressed reservations, but worked with the US to resolve them. After it was signed, Israel moved to dismantle the settlments, sometimes forcibly, but some went up afterwards without permits. Even if it was just one (I don't remember how many they started taking down), they were proceeding on a plan to dismantle all the ones that were approved since Sharon took office. In addition, I don't think that anyone expected them to bring them down all at once. The PA was supposed to begin dismantling the miltias, but they didn't budge at all because they decided that they PREFER dialogue. Why didn't they say so from the beginning? Why, simply because they never had any intention of carrying out their requirements.


Whats key to realize here is that Israel is running out of land for the demand of its people. They are trying to build new territories for Jews only, in land thats not solely theirs. Palestinians have been pushed back from their homes since the end of World War II when the Jews wanted their homeland "back". Its now been several decades that Israeli-built fences have separated Palestinian husband from wife, mother from child. That's not exactly true, there is quite a bit of land. What's also key to remember here is that the settlements occupy less than 1% of the so-called occupied territories. While there is an intention to populate the land with Jews, that is in keeping with maintaining Israel as a Jewish homeland, the very reason for its creation in the first place. I don't think that the fence around Gaza is decades old, as Israel is only 55 years old itself. But, its purpose is justified as suicide bombers have ONLY come from the West Bank, even though Hamas and Jihad are based in Gaza. That's why attacks that originate in Gaza consist of rockets.


Palestine is in dire need of its own state with its own boundaries and Israel doesn't want that to happen. Also not true, most Israelis favor the two-state solution, even Sharon himself. It's only the extreme right wing that's opposed to two-states. Even so, what amazes me is the outpouring of sympathy for a Palestinian state. I'm not saying this is you, but you don't hear the clamor for an independent Basque state, Kurdistan, or Tibet. The only difference between the Palestinians and the others is that the others don't blow up buses of little schoolchildren. I hope the others don't take this is as a clue to how to win independence.

It represents the force of controlled violence (like an army) for Palestine, which is why they don't want to break them up. But they also provide community services and political movements for their people. Hamas is actually their defense is what I'm trying to say. So therefore, Al Qaeda is the army of the unarmed Muslims. Besides, an army attacks military targets, sometimes Hamas does and sometimes like I said above they go after unarmed civilians: men women, pregnant women, children, babies. Furthermore, saying that Hamas is Palestine's army is saying that Israel is at war with the Palestinians and therefore is obligated to take extreme measures for its defense.

I believe a Palestinian nation needs to be recognized to stop the construction of Israeli settlements in territorial land claims where families live. That is illegal and it causes violence unfortunately, which should never be the answer. Under the Oslo accords, the PA was established to administer the West Bank and Gaza preceding a negotiated agreement between the two for final borders. Therefore, what constitutes an independent Palestine has not been decided by either party. In addition, the whole argument that the cause of the violence is due to the "occupation" is a sham. You should also remember that the intifadeh started before the army well moved in. It started because Ariel Sharon visited a piece of rock known to Muslims as Harum al-Sharif and to Jews as the Temple Mount. Many people villianize Sharon for that because it's a Muslim holy site. It also happens to be the holiest site in all of Judaism. No it's not the Wall, the Wall is the outer edge of the second Temple. Yes it's holy but the Mount itself is Moriah, where Abraham spared Isaac and the place of the Holy Ark is the Holy of Holies. The only reason that Jews do not openly call for the destruction of the Dome of the Rock is that we're waiting for the Messiah to restore the Temple. Just to fast-forward the army moved in a major offensive in response to the Passover bombing in Netanya when the blood had to be scraped from the floor with squeegees. People have lost sight of that.

There are also a lot of points about which you may be unaware:

First, the reason I put the "occupation" in quotes is because the West Bank is also important to Jews. The West Bank is known to Jews as Judea and Samaria, part of the ancient homeland and yearnings 2,000 years old. While some may dismiss the importance of Jewish administerial influence over the land, they should look at history. When the West Bank, including East Jerusalem was under Jordanian rule, Jewish synagogues and holy sites were desecrated and sometimes destroyed. Some of the best known examples include the Hurva Synagogue and the usage of the Wall as a garbage dump. Jews weren't even permitted to visit the sites. It was a deeply emotional time when Jerusalem was unified and the holy sites were accessible once more.

Second, many people don't understand the strategic importance of the West Bank. The distance from the Green Line which separates the West Bank from Israel proper to the Mediterranean sea is extremely short, something like 20 miles. The Arab strategy in the past had been to cut across to the sea and disrupt Israel's ability to conduct a coordinated defense. In 1972 they almost succeeded. I don't know if you can appreciate that or not.

Third, the West Bank comprises some of the richest land in the entire area. If given up completely, Israel is left with only a very narrow strip between Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv. The Negev is a harsh desert.

PhinPhan1227
10-23-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Dolfan02


Hamas has been set in the American mind as terror and violence. But its actually quite weird for lack of better word. It represents the force of controlled violence (like an army) for Palestine, which is why they don't want to break them up. But they also provide community services and political movements for their people. Hamas is actually their defense is what I'm trying to say. In all, I believe a Palestinian nation needs to be recognized to stop the construction of Israeli settlements in territorial land claims where families live. That is illegal and it causes violence unfortunately, which should never be the answer.


You can't call Hamas an army for one simple reason. An Army is created to fight against another Army. Hamas doesn't cause civilian casualties as collateral damage during their attacks on the Israeli military...they TARGET civilians. That makes them murderers, plain and simple. If they want to be an Army...they need to fight against the Idraeli Army...not women and children.

P4E
10-25-2003, 02:20 PM
Never ceases to amaze me that people can disagree respectfully and in a civil manner on the most profound issues here in the political forum, while people can't discuss who should get to throw a ball in the main forum without being foul, rude and personal.

Ya gotta love the irony.:)

Miamian
10-26-2003, 09:16 AM
I think I need to check on something. I know that the Arab strategy to conquer Israel has been to cut across the mid-portion where Israel is narrowest, but I have to check on 1972, since Israel captured the West Bank in 1967. The reason I think that in 1972 the Arabs almost succeeded is that was the war that Israel almost lost.

Miamian
10-27-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Miamian
I think I need to check on something. I know that the Arab strategy to conquer Israel has been to cut across the mid-portion where Israel is narrowest, but I have to check on 1972, since Israel captured the West Bank in 1967. The reason I think that in 1972 the Arabs almost succeeded is that was the war that Israel almost lost. I just checked on that. I didn't see a reference to the Arab strategy on the eastern front in 1967; but, I do clearly remember my professor in political geography refering to that once.

PhinPhan1227
10-31-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Miamian
I just checked on that. I didn't see a reference to the Arab strategy on the eastern front in 1967; but, I do clearly remember my professor in political geography refering to that once.

Late bloomer? I'm only 34 and I don't believe I could quote a single line from a single proff from 10 years ago. Heck, you've already quoted 2!!!!