PDA

View Full Version : I have a question about Christianity



DzakkH13
05-03-2009, 03:57 PM
I have a general question about Christianity. Why is it that so many Christian based faiths feel the need to convert other non-Christians? Where I grew up we had a ton of members from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints knocking on our doors and trying to get us to look at brochures and such. I am a man of faith, just not a Christian, and it always puzzled me why this happened. Anyone have an answer for me?

tylerdolphin
05-04-2009, 03:30 AM
Two things:
1. Jesus told Christians to spread the gospel
2. That would be pretty cold if I had a friend that really believed I was going to hell and never tried to save me from it. Thats why I dont mind Christians sharing their faith with me.

emeraldfin
05-04-2009, 07:44 AM
Muslims are the same.

Actually I'm pretty sure its says in the Qur'an that Allah wishes to create a Muslim world. But not 100% sure.

Dolphan7
05-04-2009, 11:55 AM
I have a general question about Christianity. Why is it that so many Christian based faiths feel the need to convert other non-Christians? Where I grew up we had a ton of members from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints knocking on our doors and trying to get us to look at brochures and such. I am a man of faith, just not a Christian, and it always puzzled me why this happened. Anyone have an answer for me?Jesus tells us in Matthew 28:


All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
MT 28:19 “ Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
MT 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”This verse doesn't tell us how to do this, but other parts of the NT do. Walking door to door isn't really outlined in the bible, although some do it.

The door knockers are predominantly Jehovah Witness, or Mormon. We occasionally get a few people who are opening up a new church, but the ratio is about 50 to 1 that most door to door evangelizing is being done by the JW's or the Mormons. These are considered by many to be christian religions, and do actually share in many of the views and values of the bible, however they are considered christian cults in that they teach non-biblical truths. Removing eternal hell and removing the deity of Jesus Christ are the two biggest ones. I believe in Mormonism door to door evangelizing is part of their doctrine, on a voluntary basis, to go on a two year missionary journey. The JW I think is similar.

So if people like this are knocking on your door, please don't consider them to be christian, because they are not.

Tetragrammaton
05-04-2009, 03:57 PM
Muslims are the same.

Actually I'm pretty sure its says in the Qur'an that Allah wishes to create a Muslim world. But not 100% sure.

I don't know the specifics, but they are supposed to, yea.

Islam and Christianity are unique in their desire to spread their religion. It is the main reason their numbers are so large. For the most part, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists do not try and recruit new members.

emeraldfin
05-04-2009, 05:36 PM
For a very quick rundown on Mormon belief, here is a good website.

http://listverse.com/bizarre/top-10-bizarre-mormon-beliefs/



Can easily say, not a religion for me :lol:

DzakkH13
05-04-2009, 06:38 PM
Thanks everyone for the insight. I know quite a bit about the Church of Latter Day Saints. Like I said I grew up in a small town and I had a lot of Morman friends. I have to tell you though, you may think it is like a cult, but Mormans are probably the nicest group of people I have ever met hands down. I have horses and cattle and often make journeys to the North in Utah and everyone there is nice and the places seems so safe. Seems like it would be a nice place to live.

Well I am Native American, Dine (Navajo) to be exact and I believe in Native American Church. I was just curious to hear a little about other peoples' beliefs and of course why is it that Christians often try to convert other people.

Also on a side note, the world's largest Christian converter has to be Catholics.

Dolphan7
05-04-2009, 10:42 PM
Thanks everyone for the insight. I know quite a bit about the Church of Latter Day Saints. Like I said I grew up in a small town and I had a lot of Morman friends. I have to tell you though, you may think it is like a cult, but Mormans are probably the nicest group of people I have ever met hands down. I have horses and cattle and often make journeys to the North in Utah and everyone there is nice and the places seems so safe. Seems like it would be a nice place to live.

Well I am Native American, Dine (Navajo) to be exact and I believe in Native American Church. I was just curious to hear a little about other peoples' beliefs and of course why is it that Christians often try to convert other people.

Also on a side note, the world's largest Christian converter has to be Catholics.Mormons are some of the nicest people I have ever met. That doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of the Mormon church is unbiblical. Nice people following the wrong religion. It happens.

DzakkH13
05-04-2009, 10:51 PM
Mormons are some of the nicest people I have ever met. That doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of the Mormon church is unbiblical. Nice people following the wrong religion. It happens.

You're probably right, but I wouldn't know much about the bible.

seminole
05-05-2009, 12:52 PM
Using a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness as an example of Christianity probably isn't good. Most evangelicals, catholics and mainstream protestants do not believe Mormon's and JH are biblical.

ih8brady
05-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Mormons are some of the nicest people I have ever met. That doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of the Mormon church is unbiblical. Nice people following the wrong religion. It happens.


I agree. Nice, good-nature or friendly followers does not prove that a religion is correct or lacks cult-like qualities.

emeraldfin
05-06-2009, 08:15 AM
Bit confused by the word "cult" being thrown around here.

By saying the Mormans are a cult, do you mean that their beliefs are dangerous?

Or that its just a bit strange?

Dolphan7
05-06-2009, 12:18 PM
Bit confused by the word "cult" being thrown around here.

By saying the Mormans are a cult, do you mean that their beliefs are dangerous?

Or that its just a bit strange?Dangerous? Only from an eternal perspective. Certainly there are some cults that are dangerous but I wouldn't consider the Mormons to be dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cult


A body of doctrine that does not fully accept the Christian fundamental beliefs about the Bible, or deviates from them in unacceptable ways.

There is a difference between a cult and an apostate church. An apostate church is a church that once was christian, but has become apostate, or turned away from the truth of the bible. A cult is simply a religion created from the beginning with false doctrine and teachings.

nuttie_buddie
05-20-2009, 05:04 AM
how are jw a cult??? just wondering y u might think that

Valkyron
05-22-2009, 08:54 PM
Mormons are some of the nicest people I have ever met. That doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of the Mormon church is unbiblical. Nice people following the wrong religion. It happens.

All modern "Christain" churches have deviated in some way from the Bible. Much of the "unbiblical" doctrine members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint believe in is at least partially supported by the Bible. I am not an expert on all of this, but if there are specific questions I will attempt to answer them.

P.S. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but I am far from perfect; when I say something inaccurate, please be patient with me.

Dolphan7
05-23-2009, 04:43 PM
All modern "Christain" churches have deviated in some way from the Bible. Much of the "unbiblical" doctrine members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint believe in is at least partially supported by the Bible. I am not an expert on all of this, but if there are specific questions I will attempt to answer them.

P.S. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but I am far from perfect; when I say something inaccurate, please be patient with me.Who is Jesus Christ?

Valkyron
05-25-2009, 10:48 AM
Jesus Christ is our lord and savior, the son of God the Father. He is the foundation of Christianity. He is our way back to God the Father, through the atonement. He paid for our sins through agony none of us could bear. He died on the cross, and he rose back up again on the third day. He IS.

Dolphan7
05-26-2009, 08:33 PM
Jesus Christ is our lord and savior, the son of God the Father. He is the foundation of Christianity. He is our way back to God the Father, through the atonement. He paid for our sins through agony none of us could bear. He died on the cross, and he rose back up again on the third day. He IS.
Very good. Is Jesus the only son of God?

Valkyron
05-26-2009, 11:51 PM
I believe that we are all *spirit children* of God, but that Jesus Christ is THE son of God **on Earth**.

*Spirit children refers to a particular belief about the Pre-mortal life (what the LDS church often calls the pre-existence).

**An extrapolation from our belief in being able to become like God. We believe that an eternal marriage is pre-requisite to this possibility, indicating God having a wife and possibly other children. We do not know of any other children than Jesus Christ.

nuttie_buddie
05-27-2009, 12:46 AM
I believe that we are all *spirit children* of God, but that Jesus Christ is THE son of God **on Earth**.

*Spirit children refers to a particular belief about the Pre-mortal life (what the LDS church often calls the pre-existence).

**An extrapolation from our belief in being able to become like God. We believe that an eternal marriage is pre-requisite to this possibility, indicating God having a wife and possibly other children. We do not know of any other children than Jesus Christ.jesus is referred as the only begotten son first born of all creation in the bible....john 3:16 and col 1:15

Dolphan7
05-27-2009, 01:44 AM
I believe that we are all *spirit children* of God, but that Jesus Christ is THE son of God **on Earth**.

*Spirit children refers to a particular belief about the Pre-mortal life (what the LDS church often calls the pre-existence).

**An extrapolation from our belief in being able to become like God. We believe that an eternal marriage is pre-requisite to this possibility, indicating God having a wife and possibly other children. We do not know of any other children than Jesus Christ.Ok. Now show where does the bible support this Mormon belief you just described.

Valkyron
05-27-2009, 12:09 PM
These are some of the verses in the Bible that lend some support to what I stated.


St Matthew 3:17- And lo a voice from heaven saying, this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased.


Hosea 1:10- ...Ye are the sons of the living God.


Acts 17:29- Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God …


Romans 8:16,17- The spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if Children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer, that we may be also glorified together.


Genesis 2:24- Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.


1 Corinthians 11:11- Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.


St Mark 9:9- What therefore God hath put together, let not man put asunder.


I'll end this post with a link to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints “Articles of Faith” http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,00.html (http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,00.html)

Dolphan7
05-27-2009, 02:05 PM
These are some of the verses in the Bible that lend some support to what I stated.


St Matthew 3:17- And lo a voice from heaven saying, this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased.
No problem here. I don't think there is dispute that Jesus is the son of God. This verse doesn't add or take away from that.


Hosea 1:10- ...Ye are the sons of the living God. The context of this verse, and the entire book of Hosea, is referring to the Kingdom of Israel, The Northen Kingdom and the fact that they turned their back on the one true God in favor of false gods. The book is about their rebellion, God's judgement, His love and their restoration.



Acts 17:29- Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God …Offspring is one use of the word, children is another. There is lot's of verses in the OT and NT referring to us as being children of God. There isn't anything that says that we are physically His offspring though. In fact God commanded Adam and Eve, and later Noah and his sons to go forth and mutliply, meaning they were to populate the earth with their children, not God pro-creating Himself.


Romans 8:16,17- The spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if Children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer, that we may be also glorified together.This verse and the entire chapter 8 is talking about our salvation in Christ, or adoption as in verse 15. Read John 1:12. We become children of God by accepting Jesus Christ.





Genesis 2:24- Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.No problem here. This is describing God's definition of marriage for us. It is an earthly marriage of human beings. Notice the part about leaving our father and mother, this is referring to our physical and biological father and mother, not God.



1 Corinthians 11:11- Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.Exactly, because they are "one" flesh as referring to Gen 2:24.



St Mark 9:9- What therefore God hath put together, let not man put asunder.Simply stating that marriage is intended to be for a lifetime.


Context is everything. Understanding the context of a single verse in relation to the rest of the verses around it, the authors intent, and the authors audience is so important in understanding biblical text. Unfortunately many times single verses are extracted and entire religions are based on the out of context interpretation of such verses. Not saying Mormonism takes one single verse, but they do take many out of context, as has been shown above.

Valkyron
05-27-2009, 08:32 PM
Thank you for your time and your consideration. I agree that a lot of scripture is taken out of context. I respectfully disagree about some points, but some of the issues are that I still have a lot to learn (I'm only 17) and that based upon different understandings and experiences, two people will often get two different opinions on what it means (whether very similar or very different). I certainly know that I see many things in a different light at 17 than I did at 10. I wish the best for you.:thanks:

HansMojo
05-30-2009, 03:16 AM
I believe that we are all *spirit children* of God, but that Jesus Christ is THE son of God **on Earth**.

*Spirit children refers to a particular belief about the Pre-mortal life (what the LDS church often calls the pre-existence).

**An extrapolation from our belief in being able to become like God. We believe that an eternal marriage is pre-requisite to this possibility, indicating God having a wife and possibly other children. We do not know of any other children than Jesus Christ.
Do you believe that your version of God was once a "spirit child" himself...the spirit child of yet another god who had a wife and possibly other children? Do you believe that Jesus was once a spirit baby as well? How are Jesus and Satan related from your perspective?

Valkyron
05-30-2009, 11:38 AM
Do you believe that your version of God was once a "spirit child" himself...the spirit child of yet another god who had a wife and possibly other children? Do you believe that Jesus was once a spirit baby as well? How are Jesus and Satan related from your perspective?

Yes, I believe God was once a "spirit child". Yes, I believe Jesus was once a "spirit child" as well. Jesus and satan are "spirit brothers" from my perspective. And if you ask me to find these beliefs in the bible I don't think I will be able to. However, my church believes in continued revelation, that the need for revelation did not stop with Jesus and the New Testament; that we still very much need it today. Because of this, we believe in modern prophets and in companion scpriptures to the Bible :The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price; as well as that which our modern prophets tell us in official capacity (none of us are perfect, not even our prophets, with the exception of Jesus Christ) because we believe that God will not let the prophet lead us astray. Unfortunately, people are pretty good at going astray on our own :(.

Dolphan7
05-30-2009, 01:57 PM
Yes, I believe God was once a "spirit child". Yes, I believe Jesus was once a "spirit child" as well. Jesus and satan are "spirit brothers" from my perspective. And if you ask me to find these beliefs in the bible I don't think I will be able to. However, my church believes in continued revelation, that the need for revelation did not stop with Jesus and the New Testament; that we still very much need it today. Because of this, we believe in modern prophets and in companion scpriptures to the Bible :The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price; as well as that which our modern prophets tell us in official capacity (none of us are perfect, not even our prophets, with the exception of Jesus Christ) because we believe that God will not let the prophet lead us astray. Unfortunately, people are pretty good at going astray on our own :(.The Catholics believe in continued revelation as well, and look how far off the path they have become over the centuries. The problem with continued revelation is that according to the bible, prophets were determined to be true based on if what they said was true, or came true. If it didn't....wack.....the were killed....instantly. So.....the best way for us to determine if mormon prophets are the real deal is to see if what they said was true, or came true. Can you think of any mormon predictions that didn't come true? If you find just one, they are false prohpets and shouldn't be listened to.

HansMojo
05-31-2009, 11:48 PM
Yes, I believe God was once a "spirit child". Yes, I believe Jesus was once a "spirit child" as well. Jesus and satan are "spirit brothers" from my perspective. And if you ask me to find these beliefs in the bible I don't think I will be able to.
Thanks for the response. You are correct that you will not find those beliefs in the Bible.

More importantly, not only are they not in the Bible, but they are mutually exclusive to what the Bible teaches regarding the nature of God.

Further, Biblical teaching on the nature of God is fundamental to Christianity. Mormon teaching on this subject presents God as a created being and leaves open the possibility for a universe full of different gods and gods in the making. The Biblical concept on this is that there is only one God (One God comprised of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). He is the Alpha and the Omega, and it was He (Jesus) who created ALL things....including Lucifer (know known as Satan). To think of Jesus and Satan as brothers is actually quite offensive to me personally.


However, my church believes in continued revelation, that the need for revelation did not stop with Jesus and the New Testament; that we still very much need it today.
I agree with the principle of continued revelation. The Bible is clear that there will be continued revelation, especially in the last days. However, a Biblical principle is that any new revelation will remain in harmony with what has come before and we as believers are tasked to "to test the spirits" so that we can know whether to believe any new light or reject it as false.

If you must reject a Biblical teaching on any matter to accept a Mormon or any other viewpoint, I would at least hope that this would send up red flags in your mind and that you would further investigate the matter. I say this because Mormons do claim to accept the Bible as inspired although in practice it is looked at as inferior to the other Mormon books.



Because of this, we believe in modern prophets and in companion scpriptures to the Bible :The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price; as well as that which our modern prophets tell us in official capacity (none of us are perfect, not even our prophets, with the exception of Jesus Christ) because we believe that God will not let the prophet lead us astray. Unfortunately, people are pretty good at going astray on our own :(.
To believe that God will not allow "the prophet to lead you astray" as you put it is in all honesty a very scary belief. Probably the scariest kind of belief of all. There have always been false prophets, some who started out bad, and others who started out good but then fell away. The Bible speaks of many false prophets and if there were false prophets amongst the ancient Hebrews (God's chosen people) during "Bible times" why would you think that you can blindly give your trust to some modern day prophet? God did not step in and stop all false prophets from arising in the past and He never promises to do so in the future. Instead, he warned us to watch out for them because they would come. To believe that no false prophet can possibly arise within your church is to set yourself up to be misled...IMHO. Peace.

HansMojo
06-01-2009, 12:26 AM
The Catholics believe in continued revelation as well, and look how far off the path they have become over the centuries. The problem with continued revelation is that according to the bible, prophets were determined to be true based on if what they said was true, or came true. If it didn't....wack.....the were killed....instantly. So.....the best way for us to determine if mormon prophets are the real deal is to see if what they said was true, or came true. Can you think of any mormon predictions that didn't come true? If you find just one, they are false prohpets and shouldn't be listened to.
What you mention is one test of a prophet, and a very good one at that...but might I add that we must not limit ourselves to only one test of a true prophet especially when we are given more to use. Further, even if someones prophecy comes true, this does not automatically make someone a prophet of God.

For example, based on the test you mention alone, Jonah was a false prophet. After all, he told the Ninevites that they would be destroyed in forty days, but they were not destroyed. God spared them because they repented. And a careful reading of the text will reveal that Jonah didn't say you will be destroyed unless you repent. He simply said God was going to destroy them in forty days. The funny part for me is found in chapter 4 of Jonah where Jonah is upset with God for not destroying the people...but that is besides the point. The point is that Christians do not consider Jonah to be a false prophet even though his prophecy didn't come true. We believe this because Jonah told the people what God told him to tell them. And we know from Jeremiah 18:7-10 that God's promises (both blessing and curses) are conditional. So knowing that God's promises are conditional (based on human response) we know that Jonah's message was conditional on how the people responded. We can expect this of any prophetic message. (Edit: There are promises that I don't feel are conditional...such as the promise for God to return and put an end to sin. So I should really have written the above as many of God's promises are conditional rather than all to better reflect my understanding...but hey...I'm tired so what can I say.)

Further, as I mentioned earlier, even fulfulled prophecies are not proof of a true prophet as we can see from Deuteronomy 13:1-4 which reads:

“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him."

Here are a couple more, but there are more still:

Isaiah 8:20 – “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

1 Corinthians 14:37 – “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Dolphan7
06-01-2009, 01:10 AM
What you mention is one test of a prophet, and a very good one at that...but might I add that we must not limit ourselves to only one test of a true prophet especially when we are given more to use. Further, even if someones prophecy comes true, this does not automatically make someone a prophet of God.

For example, based on the test you mention alone, Jonah was a false prophet. After all, he told the Ninevites that they would be destroyed in forty days, but they were not destroyed. God spared them because they repented. And a careful reading of the text will reveal that Jonah didn't say you will be destroyed unless you repent. He simply said God was going to destroy them in forty days. The funny part for me is found in chapter 4 of Jonah where Jonah is upset with God for not destroying the people...but that is besides the point. The point is that Christians do not consider Jonah to be a false prophet even though his prophecy didn't come true. We believe this because Jonah told the people what God told him to tell them. And we know from Jeremiah 18:7-10 that God's promises (both blessing and curses) are conditional. So knowing that God's promises are conditional (based on human response) we know that Jonah's message was conditional on how the people responded. We can expect this of any prophetic message.

Further, as I mentioned earlier, even fulfulled prophecies are not proof of a true prophet as we can see from Deuteronomy 13:1-4 which reads:

“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him."

Here are a couple more, but there are more still:

Isaiah 8:20 – “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

1 Corinthians 14:37 – “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”
Yeah...it kind of goes without saying that one of God's prophets would be required to speak of God's message, and that's why I neglected to mention it. Thanks for the clarification.

I was basing my post on Deuteronomy 18, in light of the recent posts contrasting the mormon prophets with biblical prophets....and the easy test to determine the mormon prophets to be indeed false prophets based on their failed prophesies.


DT 18:20 ‘But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’
DT 18:21 “ You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’
DT 18:22 “ When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

According to Deuteronomy 18, Joseph Smith is a false prophet. That is the point I wanted to walk through with Valkyron.

HansMojo
06-01-2009, 01:17 AM
Yeah...it kind of goes without saying that one of God's prophets would be required to speak of God's message, and that's why I neglected to mention it. Thanks for the clarification.

I was basing my post on Deuteronomy 18, in light of the recent posts contrasting the mormon prophets with biblical prophets....and the easy test to determine the mormon prophets to be indeed false prophets based on their failed prophesies.



According to Deuteronomy 18, Joseph Smith is a false prophet. That is the point I wanted to walk through with Valkyron.
I don't understand your first paragraph. Please explain. (sorry, I'm a little slow sometimes.)

Valkyron
06-01-2009, 05:52 PM
Further, Biblical teaching on the nature of God is fundamental to Christianity. Mormon teaching on this subject presents God as a created being and leaves open the possibility for a universe full of different gods and gods in the making. The Biblical concept on this is that there is only one God (One God comprised of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). He is the Alpha and the Omega, and it was He (Jesus) who created ALL things....including Lucifer (know known as Satan). To think of Jesus and Satan as brothers is actually quite offensive to me personally.
I am sorry that you are offended by that belief.



To believe that God will not allow "the prophet to lead you astray" as you put it is in all honesty a very scary belief. Probably the scariest kind of belief of all. There have always been false prophets, some who started out bad, and others who started out good but then fell away. The Bible speaks of many false prophets and if there were false prophets amongst the ancient Hebrews (God's chosen people) during "Bible times" why would you think that you can blindly give your trust to some modern day prophet? God did not step in and stop all false prophets from arising in the past and He never promises to do so in the future. Instead, he warned us to watch out for them because they would come. To believe that no false prophet can possibly arise within your church is to set yourself up to be misled...IMHO. Peace.

I agree that this sounds scary to just read/hear. However, I am not good at blindly following what I am told to do, it's the curse/blessing of being "intelligent". And while we believe what the prophet says to be true, we are encouraged to search, ponder, and pray for confirmation for ourselves.

Also, I know that false "prophets" will/have risen in our church, though I do not believe The Prophet (our current one being Thomas S. Monson) will be among them. Even among the Apostles of our church (which we also sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators) there will/have been false "prophets".

P.S. Dolphan7, I look forward to you continuing to "walk me down" the path you are trying to show me.
P.P.S. Please bear with me with, some words or phrases I use will have a different meaning to me than they will to you, jargon in one group will often mean something very different to those outside; a concept related to "inside jokes". I'm apologizing for any misunderstandings that result from such. However, I know that some (possibly many) of my beliefs will go against someone's grain even when there aren't any misunderstandings about what I am trying to say.

Dolphan7
06-01-2009, 06:44 PM
I am sorry that you are offended by that belief.



I agree that this sounds scary to just read/hear. However, I am not good at blindly following what I am told to do, it's the curse/blessing of being "intelligent". And while we believe what the prophet says to be true, we are encouraged to search, ponder, and pray for confirmation for ourselves.

Also, I know that false "prophets" will/have risen in our church, though I do not believe The Prophet (our current one being Thomas S. Monson) will be among them. Even among the Apostles of our church (which we also sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators) there will/have been false "prophets".

P.S. Dolphan7, I look forward to you continuing to "walk me down" the path you are trying to show me.
P.P.S. Please bear with me with, some words or phrases I use will have a different meaning to me than they will to you, jargon in one group will often mean something very different to those outside; a concept related to "inside jokes". I'm apologizing for any misunderstandings that result from such. However, I know that some (possibly many) of my beliefs will go against someone's grain even when there aren't any misunderstandings about what I am trying to say.There are definitely different meanings to words used by the mormons as compared to those same words and their menings in mainstream Christianity.

My whole point has been to respond to your claim that the mormon beliefs are supported in the bible, which they clearly are not. Also regarding false prophets....if the founder of your religion is a false prophet, which has been proven, wouldn't you think that any religion created from such a false prophet to be highly questionable? let alone false?

Just trying to get you to think about what you have been told by either your parents or your mormon brothers.


I all boils down to this: If I am wrong, I still get into that third mormon heaven correct? However....if you are wrong......it is an eternal miscalculation.

Eternity is an aweful long time to be wrong.

My best advice to you is to run as far away from mormonism as you can. You seem to believe in a diety...go find a good Christian church and get plugged in there.

HansMojo
06-02-2009, 01:56 AM
I am sorry that you are offended by that belief.
No need to apologize. It's the doctrine that offends me, not you.

It offends me because of how I view Jesus Christ. I love and worship Jesus Christ because I believe that He is the Creator of all things. I believe that He is God, equal to the Father, God Almighty. He is my Redeemer and my Savior. IMHO, comparing Jesus to Satan is like comparing a person to a roach and calling them brothers. It is offensive to me personally. But I have no gripe with you.

In fact, I find a lot of religious beliefs offensive including some found within mainstream Christianity. For example, I particularly loathe the doctrine of an eternally burning hell where God will supposedly torture people for all of eternity. I believe this doctrine is a misinterpretation of the related Bible texts and an attack on the character of God. I don't dislike the people that believe this doctrine, or worry that for their belief in this doctrine that they are lost or something. But I find the doctrine to be disturbing and offensive as well as unnecessary. But I also recognize, for the record, that I'm just a dude searching for answers like everyone else. My opinion is just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.



I agree that this sounds scary to just read/hear. However, I am not good at blindly following what I am told to do, it's the curse/blessing of being "intelligent". And while we believe what the prophet says to be true, we are encouraged to search, ponder, and pray for confirmation for ourselves.

And what do you search to find your answers? If you search the Bible for answers, and allow it to lead you, I believe that you will find a different path than the one followed by the Mormon church. And if you pray for confirmation, which having known a lot of Mormons in my life I know this is really the final test when all else fails to confirm their doctrines, how do you know that the sign you receive is more truthful that the signs that say a pentecostal Christian prays for and receives (speaking in tongues, prophesying, healing or being healed, etc.) to confirm his/her beliefs? I happen to know your churches official stance on this, and it is that Pentecostal's are not receiving this confirmation from God but from somewhere else. And if these people can be misled by a prayed for sign or wonder, or feeling (which your church believes they are being misled), then can't you? If not, why? How can you be sure?

The Bible teaches that in the last days, the dragon is going to be running around like a roaring lion, performing great signs and wonders, and deceiving many through them.



Also, I know that false "prophets" will/have risen in our church, though I do not believe The Prophet (our current one being Thomas S. Monson) will be among them. Even among the Apostles of our church (which we also sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators) there will/have been false "prophets".

P.S. Dolphan7, I look forward to you continuing to "walk me down" the path you are trying to show me.
P.P.S. Please bear with me with, some words or phrases I use will have a different meaning to me than they will to you, jargon in one group will often mean something very different to those outside; a concept related to "inside jokes". I'm apologizing for any misunderstandings that result from such. However, I know that some (possibly many) of my beliefs will go against someone's grain even when there aren't any misunderstandings about what I am trying to say.

You say that you know that there have been false Mormon prophets and will be more to come. Which Mormon prophets do you believe to be false and why do you believe them to be false? If it's primarily because they didn't support *current* or mainstream Mormon doctrine...well this would be a red flag to me. How about you?

To wrap this up, I'm only bringing any of this up because you have claimed that Mormon belief is supported by the Bible. This is not true, but I know you have been taught to believe this and you believe this sincerely. But search deep enough, and you will find that in order to accept many Mormon doctrines, you must reject the Bible (even the JST in some cases). If that is the path you choose, then that is the path you choose. But I'm all for people going into things with their eyes wide open.

Peace.

Valkyron
06-02-2009, 05:11 PM
There are definitely different meanings to words used by the mormons as compared to those same words and their menings in mainstream Christianity.

My whole point has been to respond to your claim that the mormon beliefs are supported in the bible, which they clearly are not. Also regarding false prophets....if the founder of your religion is a false prophet, which has been proven, wouldn't you think that any religion created from such a false prophet to be highly questionable? let alone false?

Just trying to get you to think about what you have been told by either your parents or your mormon brothers.


I all boils down to this: If I am wrong, I still get into that third mormon heaven correct? However....if you are wrong......it is an eternal miscalculation.

Eternity is an aweful long time to be wrong.

My best advice to you is to run as far away from mormonism as you can. You seem to believe in a diety...go find a good Christian church and get plugged in there.

I never was trying to say all mormon beliefs are partially and/or fully supported by the Bible, just that many are. I was foolish in my earlier post where I tried to find evidence for Mormon beliefs only in the Bible, because while I believe in the Bible, I don't believe revelation stopped with it. It would be akin to relying on only the Old Testament for mainstream Christain beliefs; parts are there, but much is missing.

Also, in terms of whether or not Mormons are Christain; just because we have some different beliefs about Christ when compared to your church doesn't make us non-Christain. As I said earlier, Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Mormon Church. If that is not enough for you to consider us Christain, then I am sorry for you.

And while you would be guarunteed at least the Telestial Kingdom of glory, you would also have a chance at the Terrestrial Kingdom :up:. If my beliefs would send me to your hell, then I am sorry for your beliefs.

I will keep an open mind about what you and others have to say, but I know what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has to offer me, and I know it is of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I wish you the best.

Valkyron
06-02-2009, 05:27 PM
No need to apologize. It's the doctrine that offends me, not you.

It offends me because of how I view Jesus Christ. I love and worship Jesus Christ because I believe that He is the Creator of all things. I believe that He is God, equal to the Father, God Almighty. He is my Redeemer and my Savior. IMHO, comparing Jesus to Satan is like comparing a person to a roach and calling them brothers. It is offensive to me personally. But I have no gripe with you.

In fact, I find a lot of religious beliefs offensive including some found within mainstream Christianity. For example, I particularly loathe the doctrine of an eternally burning hell where God will supposedly torture people for all of eternity. I believe this doctrine is a misinterpretation of the related Bible texts and an attack on the character of God. I don't dislike the people that believe this doctrine, or worry that for their belief in this doctrine that they are lost or something. But I find the doctrine to be disturbing and offensive as well as unnecessary. But I also recognize, for the record, that I'm just a dude searching for answers like everyone else. My opinion is just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.



And what do you search to find your answers? If you search the Bible for answers, and allow it to lead you, I believe that you will find a different path than the one followed by the Mormon church. And if you pray for confirmation, which having known a lot of Mormons in my life I know this is really the final test when all else fails to confirm their doctrines, how do you know that the sign you receive is more truthful that the signs that say a pentecostal Christian prays for and receives (speaking in tongues, prophesying, healing or being healed, etc.) to confirm his/her beliefs? I happen to know your churches official stance on this, and it is that Pentecostal's are not receiving this confirmation from God but from somewhere else. And if these people can be misled by a prayed for sign or wonder, or feeling (which your church believes they are being misled), then can't you? If not, why? How can you be sure?

The Bible teaches that in the last days, the dragon is going to be running around like a roaring lion, performing great signs and wonders, and deceiving many through them.



You say that you know that there have been false Mormon prophets and will be more to come. Which Mormon prophets do you believe to be false and why do you believe them to be false? If it's primarily because they didn't support *current* or mainstream Mormon doctrine...well this would be a red flag to me. How about you?

To wrap this up, I'm only bringing any of this up because you have claimed that Mormon belief is supported by the Bible. This is not true, but I know you have been taught to believe this and you believe this sincerely. But search deep enough, and you will find that in order to accept many Mormon doctrines, you must reject the Bible (even the JST in some cases). If that is the path you choose, then that is the path you choose. But I'm all for people going into things with their eyes wide open.

Peace.

By false prophets I am refering to those who have set themselves up as prophets unrighteously, ones that were not called of God but say they were. I do not know specific names, but examples might be people like the founders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS). I am not trying to cast people who merely fell away from the Church as false prophets unless they fall under that category for different reasons.

I am trying to paint my Church accurately, but I feel I am doing so very poorly :(

I have read considerable portions of the scriptures I believe in, but I can't come to the same conclusion that Jesus Christ=God. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are unified in purpose, but they are three unique individuals to me.

My eyes are wide open.

I too recognize that I am just a dude looking for answers to the big three questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? and Where am I going?

Peace.

Dolphan7
06-02-2009, 06:49 PM
I never was trying to say all mormon beliefs are partially and/or fully supported by the Bible, just that many are. I was foolish in my earlier post where I tried to find evidence for Mormon beliefs only in the Bible, because while I believe in the Bible, I don't believe revelation stopped with it. It would be akin to relying on only the Old Testament for mainstream Christain beliefs; parts are there, but much is missing.

Also, in terms of whether or not Mormons are Christain; just because we have some different beliefs about Christ when compared to your church doesn't make us non-Christain. As I said earlier, Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Mormon Church. If that is not enough for you to consider us Christain, then I am sorry for you.

And while you would be guarunteed at least the Telestial Kingdom of glory, you would also have a chance at the Terrestrial Kingdom :up:. If my beliefs would send me to your hell, then I am sorry for your beliefs.

I will keep an open mind about what you and others have to say, but I know what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has to offer me, and I know it is of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I wish you the best.Well mormonism wouldn't be the first religion to spring up from the 19th century that deemed the bible to be either incomplete (mormonism), in error (jehovah witness - new world translation) or needed explanation (christian science - Mary Baker Eddy and the key to the scriptures). What makes mormonism any different or correct than those others?

Also keep in mind it isn't "my church" that believes the way it does, nor "my" beliefs, but the very bible itself that teaches these things that you say you feel sorry for. Basically you feel sorry for the very bible that is one of the cornerstones of your own religion. Kind of a contradiction in my opinion.

Based on the non-biblical teachings of the mormon church, it cannpt be considered christian, although is shares many of the same christian values and morals and biblical principles. It isn't christian...but mormon. It is it's own religion. There is christianity, and then there is mormonism. Similar, but not the same.

You can continue to believe that mormonism is the real deal and the correct path for your salvation. That is your prerogative. But please don't continue to believe that mormonism is the same as christianity and that the definitions are the same (you have acknowledged this). Please consider mormonism to be just that - mormonism. Other than the fact that mormonism teaches a false path to salvation, which is the bottom line in our relationship with God, it really is a good values based religion. Good family, good values, good citizen, really nice people.

I don't know your story or anything about you and what the influences around you are. My guess is that you have been raised in the religion by your parents from a young age. So I understand that it is difficult to get critical answers from those you are closest to. But you owe it to yourself to search for the right answers. Jesus tells us to ask and it will be answered, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. Jeremiah 29:13 tells us that you will seek me and find me (God) when you search for me with all your heart.

Keep your eyes open. You may feel sorry for what the bible teaches if you are wrong, but you still have to accept the reality that it does teach that....and you could still be wrong. You better be 100% sure you are right. I am 100% sure as well. One of us is wrong. We both can't be right.

...Unless Buddha was right...and we both come back as dung beatles. LOL

Valkyron
06-02-2009, 07:09 PM
...Unless Buddha was right...and we both come back as dung beatles. LOL
That would be unforunate :up:.

P.S. I personally feel that this current discussion has run its course, and so I will refrain from more comments in this thread about it for now. I look forward to future friendly discussions with you in the future.

HansMojo
06-02-2009, 11:36 PM
I have read considerable portions of the scriptures I believe in, but I can't come to the same conclusion that Jesus Christ=God. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are unified in purpose, but they are three unique individuals to me.

I am late to a graduation, so I'll just give you one text to look at for now. I'll type some more later when I have a chance. Please read Hebrews 1:8-10. Please notice what God says about Jesus in this passage.

8. But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

In this text, God refers to Jesus as God twice, Lord once, and even talks about how He created the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth (obviously this occurred before He was born to Mary).

Jesus is the Son, but He is clearly also God according to...well...God. He is the Savior, but He is also the Creator. Jesus refers to the Father as God and the Father refers to Jesus as God. There is only one God, and this God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, I gotta run. Peace.

aesop
06-18-2009, 02:12 PM
Well mormonism wouldn't be the first religion to spring up from the 19th century that deemed the bible to be either incomplete (mormonism), in error (jehovah witness - new world translation) or needed explanation (christian science - Mary Baker Eddy and the key to the scriptures). What makes mormonism any different or correct than those others?This is a hollow argument. Every religion is based on the same principles and pretty much every single one of them has been altered or updated to accommodate new generations.

rev kev
07-15-2009, 11:33 AM
No need to apologize. It's the doctrine that offends me, not you.

It offends me because of how I view Jesus Christ. I love and worship Jesus Christ because I believe that He is the Creator of all things. I believe that He is God, equal to the Father, God Almighty. He is my Redeemer and my Savior. IMHO, comparing Jesus to Satan is like comparing a person to a roach and calling them brothers. It is offensive to me personally. But I have no gripe with you.

In fact, I find a lot of religious beliefs offensive including some found within mainstream Christianity. For example, I particularly loathe the doctrine of an eternally burning hell where God will supposedly torture people for all of eternity. I believe this doctrine is a misinterpretation of the related Bible texts and an attack on the character of God. I don't dislike the people that believe this doctrine, or worry that for their belief in this doctrine that they are lost or something. But I find the doctrine to be disturbing and offensive as well as unnecessary. But I also recognize, for the record, that I'm just a dude searching for answers like everyone else. My opinion is just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.



And what do you search to find your answers? If you search the Bible for answers, and allow it to lead you, I believe that you will find a different path than the one followed by the Mormon church. And if you pray for confirmation, which having known a lot of Mormons in my life I know this is really the final test when all else fails to confirm their doctrines, how do you know that the sign you receive is more truthful that the signs that say a pentecostal Christian prays for and receives (speaking in tongues, prophesying, healing or being healed, etc.) to confirm his/her beliefs? I happen to know your churches official stance on this, and it is that Pentecostal's are not receiving this confirmation from God but from somewhere else. And if these people can be misled by a prayed for sign or wonder, or feeling (which your church believes they are being misled), then can't you? If not, why? How can you be sure?

The Bible teaches that in the last days, the dragon is going to be running around like a roaring lion, performing great signs and wonders, and deceiving many through them.



You say that you know that there have been false Mormon prophets and will be more to come. Which Mormon prophets do you believe to be false and why do you believe them to be false? If it's primarily because they didn't support *current* or mainstream Mormon doctrine...well this would be a red flag to me. How about you?

To wrap this up, I'm only bringing any of this up because you have claimed that Mormon belief is supported by the Bible. This is not true, but I know you have been taught to believe this and you believe this sincerely. But search deep enough, and you will find that in order to accept many Mormon doctrines, you must reject the Bible (even the JST in some cases). If that is the path you choose, then that is the path you choose. But I'm all for people going into things with their eyes wide open.

Peace.

Nice

rev kev
07-15-2009, 11:37 AM
This is a hollow argument. Every religion is based on the same principles and pretty much every single one of them has been altered or updated to accommodate new generations.

Beg to differ not argue with you that the JC of Mormonism and the JC of JW is not the Jesus of Christianity...

Are you are making the large simple generalization that all roads lead back to God...?