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BAMAPHIN 22
05-10-2009, 08:54 PM
Despite the Rev. Alberto Cutié's admission that he is in love with a woman, he is formidably popular among Catholics, who also overwhelmingly disapprove of the church's celibacy policy, a weekend poll of 400 Miami-Dade Catholics shows.

Among the poll's findings:
A substantial majority -- 74 per cent -- of those surveyed, including Hispanics and non-Hispanics, oppose the Catholic Church's prohibition of priests marrying or having any type of sexual relations.

''The poll indicates that local Catholics are rejecting one of the tenets of the Catholic Church -- the policy of celibacy of the 12th Century no longer makes sense for the 21st Century,'' said Fernand R. Amandi, executive vice president of Bendixen & Associates, which The Miami Herald hired to conduct the poll.



http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/1041827.html

Tetragrammaton
05-10-2009, 09:45 PM
Anyone who expects a man to be celibate his whole life is asking for the controversies they have had. At some point, you have to accept human nature.

emeraldfin
05-11-2009, 05:29 AM
Now this is something I have always found strange.

I no that celibacy dates back to the Church Fathers, who are the ones reponsible for it. They saw celibacy as some higher state of grace that not all men can achieve. But as far as I know, there is very little evidence of it in Scripture. Even in 1 Timothy 3: 2-4 it suuports men being married.




A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;



D7 is probably the man to ask whether there is support of celibacy in the Bible.

BAMAPHIN 22
05-17-2009, 09:19 PM
Hispanic Catholic opinions on celibacy and the Cutie scandal provide a glimpse at some of the community's values. Among them: a respect for authority but tolerance when someone falls short, and a machismo culture and love for family that colors attitudes toward the priesthood and dissuades many Hispanic men from taking the vow.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2009/05/17/celibacy_questions_plague_hispanic_priest_at_heart_of_scandal/

Dolphan7
05-30-2009, 02:40 PM
Now this is something I have always found strange.

I no that celibacy dates back to the Church Fathers, who are the ones reponsible for it. They saw celibacy as some higher state of grace that not all men can achieve. But as far as I know, there is very little evidence of it in Scripture. Even in 1 Timothy 3: 2-4 it suuports men being married.




D7 is probably the man to ask whether there is support of celibacy in the Bible.I believe the catholics base their celibacy rule on the Apostle Paul from 1 Corinthians 7.


1CO 7:7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.
1CO 7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.Notice the bold part. Each man, and woman, has a gift. Some have the gift of celibacy as in the case of Paul. Most do not. If you have sexual urges, then you probably don't have this particular gift, and should be married - as Paul goes on to explain.


1CO 7:9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.Also read in context what Paul wrote just before this:


1CO 7:1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. (Be married - D7)
1CO 7:2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
1CO 7:3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
1CO 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1CO 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.Paul is saying that if you lack self control and have sexual desires, then you need to be married so that you don't fall into sinful and lustful behavior. The catholic church completely missed it on this issue, and we can see the evil consequence of this - forcing a man to abstain from sex who does not have the self control or gift of celibacy to deal with it.

emeraldfin
06-02-2009, 08:34 AM
I believe the catholics base their celibacy rule on the Apostle Paul from 1 Corinthians 7.

Notice the bold part. Each man, and woman, has a gift. Some have the gift of celibacy as in the case of Paul. Most do not. If you have sexual urges, then you probably don't have this particular gift, and should be married - as Paul goes on to explain.

Also read in context what Paul wrote just before this:

Paul is saying that if you lack self control and have sexual desires, then you need to be married so that you don't fall into sinful and lustful behavior. The catholic church completely missed it on this issue, and we can see the evil consequence of this - forcing a man to abstain from sex who does not have the self control or gift of celibacy to deal with it.

So what does celibacy hold for Protestantism then D7?

You related to 1 Corinthians 7:7 where Paul said that celibacy is a gift. So, in that case should all people strive to be celibate? I know that the majoirty of people are not strong enough to withstand their urges, but should celibacy be the goal to achieve, even if they are doomed to failure?

HansMojo
06-02-2009, 01:21 PM
So what does celibacy hold for Protestantism then D7?

You related to 1 Corinthians 7:7 where Paul said that celibacy is a gift. So, in that case should all people strive to be celibate? I know that the majoirty of people are not strong enough to withstand their urges, but should celibacy be the goal to achieve, even if they are doomed to failure?
I'm not D7, (but I'm sure he agrees with me on this) but I'll toss in my 2 cents. I don't think Paul would advise people to strive to be celibate if they haven't been given this gift. While it is true that Paul saw celibacy as a positive, it was because his celibacy allowed him to dedicate himself 100% to the Gospel work. He wasn't tied down to having marital/family responsibilities. The Gospel work was his priority and he wished it was the same for everyone else. This illustrates how important the Gospel work was to him. It was everything to him.

But Paul also recognized that not everyone is capable of what he was capable of because they had not been given the same gift. He recognized that God gives different gifts to different people. In 1 Cor 7:7, Paul says:

"But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that."

IMHO, We should be happy with the gifts God does give us and use them for good.

I can tell you (and my wife can confirm) that I don't have the gift of celibacy...that's for sure.

Dolphan7
06-02-2009, 01:34 PM
So what does celibacy hold for Protestantism then D7?

You related to 1 Corinthians 7:7 where Paul said that celibacy is a gift. So, in that case should all people strive to be celibate? I know that the majoirty of people are not strong enough to withstand their urges, but should celibacy be the goal to achieve, even if they are doomed to failure?Celibacy isn't something that ones strives for. You either have it, or you don't. It is a gift according to 1 Cor 7. The Apolstle Paul had it, and it allowed him to focus on God's work fulltime without having the responsibilities of marriage. We don't know if Paul was always this way, or God made him that way in order to accomplish His will. But it isn't something one can simply acquire and this is where the catholics missed the boat. One can possibly suppress urges for a time, we see this with people choosing abstinance until marriage. But to suppress sexual desires over a long period of time will eventaully result in some sort of release, and many times with evil results.

Vaark
07-11-2009, 08:46 AM
I look upon the vow of celibacy like the vow of marital fidelity. Despite best intents and depending on your needs at that point in time, how early you are in life and in your maturity when committing to either sets of vows, circumstances and values often change, and human nature intrudes. This is especially true of those who apparently have unsuccessfully attempted to repress alternative impulses by committing to celibacy- becoming priests for the wrong reasons. IMO, like a number of other bibilical time-dated precepts, celibacy has outlived its usefulness to the calling and health of the Catholic clergy.

rev kev
07-16-2009, 12:47 AM
I wish they would allow the Priests to marry should they wish...

CashInFist
07-16-2009, 12:54 AM
I was raised Catholic and I agree Priests should be able to marry and reproduce.

rev kev
07-16-2009, 11:07 AM
I was raised Catholic and I agree Priests should be able to marry and reproduce.

Yay we agree..., BTW I have a few good friends who are Priests and it concerns me because in at least one case the guy isn't born to be single if you get my drift..., yes he swoed a number of oats but that in itself should tell you something... so it's a shame..., that he cannot marry reproduce and raise a family...

I work with Homeless people..., while I'm a pastor I'm often confused for a Priest and one of the things that is most confusing things for these folks... "Why some Ministers can have a wife and others cannot" -

Dolphan7
07-16-2009, 01:57 PM
Yay we agree..., BTW I have a few good friends who are Priests and it concerns me because in at least one case the guy isn't born to be single if you get my drift..., yes he swoed a number of oats but that in itself should tell you something... so it's a shame..., that he cannot marry reproduce and raise a family...

I work with Homeless people..., while I'm a pastor I'm often confused for a Priest and one of the things that is most confusing things for these folks... "Why some Ministers can have a wife and others cannot" -Ministers, Pastors, Lay-Elders, Deacons, Teachers etc.....all follow the biblical principles of leadership as outlined in the bible. Namely found in I Timothy and Titus.


1TI 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
1TI 3:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1TI 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
1TI 3:4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
1TI 3:5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
1TI 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
1TI 3:7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1TI 3:8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
1TI 3:9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
1TI 3:10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
1TI 3:11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
1TI 3:12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

TIT 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
TIT 1:6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
TIT 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
TIT 1:8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
TIT 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.We can clearly see that church leaders are most certainly allowed to marry and have children.

Again I stress that the Catholic Church really missed the boat on this issue, and we see the results of such foolish theology.

rev kev
07-16-2009, 02:26 PM
Yes the church leader he can have one wife but he doesn't have to have one either... (lil joke there)

CashInFist
07-16-2009, 11:28 PM
Ministers, Pastors, Lay-Elders, Deacons, Teachers etc.....all follow the biblical principles of leadership as outlined in the bible. Namely found in I Timothy and Titus.

We can clearly see that church leaders are most certainly allowed to marry and have children.

Again I stress that the Catholic Church really missed the boat on this issue, and we see the results of such foolish theology.


But, the Catholics were the smartest of all the religions to acknowledge that some sins are worse than others. Most, if not all other Christian religions believe all sins to be equal, when clearly they are not.

Dolphan7
07-17-2009, 11:00 AM
But, the Catholics were the smartest of all the religions to acknowledge that some sins are worse than others. Most, if not all other Christian religions believe all sins to be equal, when clearly they are not.Not really. From a legal or law standpoint, there are sins, or crimes, that are worse than others. We punish according to the severity of the crime. But God doesn't differentiate in the same way.

We are all sinners. Period. No matter if it is a small lie or a heinous crime. It is all the same - to God.


RO 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
RO 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

CashInFist
07-17-2009, 02:35 PM
Not really. From a legal or law standpoint, there are sins, or crimes, that are worse than others. We punish according to the severity of the crime. But God doesn't differentiate in the same way.

We are all sinners. Period. No matter if it is a small lie or a heinous crime. It is all the same - to God.


Please...Murdering an entire family is worse than stealing a deck of playing cards from Wal-mart.

Some sins are worse than others and that line from the Bible doesn't say anything to the contrary.





RO 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
RO 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


All this says to me is that there is no distinction between someone who appears to not sin and someone who clearly has sinned because EVERYONE sins, just some worse than others.

Dolphan7
07-17-2009, 03:46 PM
Please...Murdering an entire family is worse than stealing a deck of playing cards from Wal-mart.

Some sins are worse than others and that line from the Bible doesn't say anything to the contrary.




All this says to me is that there is no distinction between someone who appears to not sin and someone who clearly has sinned because EVERYONE sins, just some worse than others.

As a society and a world full of manmade laws and justice, there are sins or crimes more worse than others, no doubt. But you cannot apply that to God. God views all sins as sinful. It doesn't matter that one is murder and another is theft - he covered both in the Ten Commandments. We are all sinners in his eyes.....and it isn't about our sins that keep us from heaven or send us to hell - it is what we do with His gift - His Son Jesus Christ. That is how he views it. We are all sinners - He will only differentiate between those who sin and accept Jesus, and those who sin and reject Jesus. That is about the only difference we can see from a biblical perspective.

Try to understand it from God's perspective.

HansMojo
07-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Please...Murdering an entire family is worse than stealing a deck of playing cards from Wal-mart.

Some sins are worse than others and that line from the Bible doesn't say anything to the contrary.





All this says to me is that there is no distinction between someone who appears to not sin and someone who clearly has sinned because EVERYONE sins, just some worse than others.
This is a really great topic for discussion and one that I think is very relevant to understanding sin and the mechanics of Grace. What I hear D7 saying is that in God's eyes, a sin is a sin is a sin in that all sins, big or small, necessitate(d) the blood of Jesus. I completely agree with this. If I'm misunderstanding you D7, then I apologize. Big or small, Jesus died for them all. Stated differently, all sin is evidence that we fall short of the glory of God and are in desperate need of the Savior.

If a person gave up all the big sins but clung to one little tiny one, they would be just as lost as if they hung on to the big ones. We must surrender them all at the foot of the cross. Though obviously, we will continue to struggle with sin until that day arrives when we are changed, when as Paul says, the corruptible puts on the incorruptible. Our attitude towards our sin is important. Do we feel we can hang on to the little sins as long as we give up the big ones? Do we desire to give them all up even though we continue to struggle with them? These types of things are important indicators as to where our heart really is.

Having said that, Jesus spoke the following words that do provide evidence that God recognizes that not all sins are created equal...from a certain perspective:

11 Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” (John 19:11)

So to me, one could argue, successfully, that God is well aware that some sins are more serious than others, *in this life*, and this has a lot to do with the weight of the consequences to self and others as well as motive, level of ignorance/rebellion on the part of the sinner, etc. There are other texts that one could point to with the same basic message. But again, all sins have the same result from a Salvation perspective and that is the point I think D7 was trying to make.