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View Full Version : ‘Phil is just showing up’ with Lakers, ’Zo says



BAMAPHIN 22
06-10-2009, 05:36 PM
"To tell you the truth, Phil doesn't have to do anything but call (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/31210215/#) timeouts," said Mourning, the former NBA star who helped lead the Miami Heat to the 2006 championship and twice was named the league's defensive player of the year.

"Kobe is the facilitator. He is the one driving the mission of this particular team right now," he said. "The communication level he has with his teammates out there, you can just see it."
"I think Phil is just showing up, to tell you the truth, and Kobe is doing all the work to make this team successful."

Mourning was speaking Wednesday on a teleconference that also included Shane Battier and Wally Szczerbiak promoting the American Century Celebrity Golf Championship at Lake Tahoe. They are among the 75 sports stars and celebrities scheduled to play in the 20th annual event at Edgewood Tahoe Golf Course July 17-19.


http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/31210215/

nyjunc
06-10-2009, 05:39 PM
"the former NBA star who helped lead the Miami Heat to the 2006 championship "

Huh? They mean the former player who rode the coattails of Shaq and wade to a title.

Phil Jackson is the best coach in the history of the NBA.

Ferretsquig
06-10-2009, 08:31 PM
I seem to remember 'Zo being the best center on the court for the majority of the playoffs, most noticeably in the finals.

I haven't paid all that much attention to the playoffs after Miami's dismissal, but some of the defensive play by the Lakers has completely mystified me. Walton seemed to be guarding 'Melo every time he went off, with the all defensive first teamer sitting in a corner covering JR Smith. And who lets a team play JJ Redick at PG without pressuring him?

kud
06-10-2009, 09:15 PM
"the former NBA star who helped lead the Miami Heat to the 2006 championship "

Huh? They mean the former player who rode the coattails of Shaq and wade to a title.

Phil Jackson is the best coach in the history of the NBA.

Yes, I bet he had to work extra hard to lead Jordan/Pippen, Kobe/Shaq to the title.

On the pro level great coaches are made by great players more often than vice versa.

Course, I do believe Jackson is a good coach, but he's been set up to succeed.

Dolphins7273
06-10-2009, 09:55 PM
"the former NBA star who helped lead the Miami Heat to the 2006 championship "

Huh? They mean the former player who rode the coattails of Shaq and wade to a title.

Phil Jackson is the best coach in the history of the NBA.

Bet you wish Patrick Ewing could have rode someone's coattails to a championship, Mr. Closet Knicks fan.

Dolphins7273
06-10-2009, 09:58 PM
I seem to remember 'Zo being the best center on the court for the majority of the playoffs, most noticeably in the finals.


Yup. But apparently he had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:

milldog
06-10-2009, 10:05 PM
"the former NBA star who helped lead the Miami Heat to the 2006 championship "

Huh? They mean the former player who rode the coattails of Shaq and wade to a title.

Phil Jackson is the best coach in the history of the NBA.

Sorry, but a ridiculous statement, Mourning was a huge part of their success and means more to the Heat than Shaquille ever will. He most certainly didn't play like a back-up and you would have known this if you watched them play the year they won their title.

d-day
06-10-2009, 10:58 PM
"the former NBA star who helped lead the Miami Heat to the 2006 championship "

Huh? They mean the former player who rode the coattails of Shaq and wade to a title.

Phil Jackson is the best coach in the history of the NBA.

One of toughest, hardest working players ever. That was a team title. And he was a huge part of it.

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 11:36 AM
I seem to remember 'Zo being the best center on the court for the majority of the playoffs, most noticeably in the finals.

I haven't paid all that much attention to the playoffs after Miami's dismissal, but some of the defensive play by the Lakers has completely mystified me. Walton seemed to be guarding 'Melo every time he went off, with the all defensive first teamer sitting in a corner covering JR Smith. And who lets a team play JJ Redick at PG without pressuring him?

yep his 3.8 PPG and 3 boards really showed he was the best C on the court the majority of the playoffs.:rolleyes2: He rode Wade and Shaq's coattails to a title, he couldn't do it when he was the centerpiece of a team.


Yes, I bet he had to work extra hard to lead Jordan/Pippen, Kobe/Shaq to the title.

On the pro level great coaches are made by great players more often than vice versa.

Course, I do believe Jackson is a good coach, but he's been set up to succeed.

Talent alone does not win, Shaq has just one title w/o Phil, Kobe has zero. Jordan didn't win w/o Phil, Pippen never won w/o Phil. It boggles my mind how underrated Phil Jackson is, how come red Auerbach isn't viewed like that? He had immense talent every year but for some reason jackson gets underrated.


Bet you wish Patrick Ewing could have rode someone's coattails to a championship, Mr. Closet Knicks fan.

I am not a Knick fan, If I was I'd admit it.


Sorry, but a ridiculous statement, Mourning was a huge part of their success and means more to the Heat than Shaquille ever will. He most certainly didn't play like a back-up and you would have known this if you watched them play the year they won their title.

Mourning could never win when he was the focal point, he was never a big game player whether in College or the NBA and w/o Shaq the Heat don't have that title. W/o Mourning they still win it.


One of toughest, hardest working players ever. That was a team title. And he was a huge part of it.

He worked hard to setak money from the Nets and Raptors then got to hop on Shaw and wades back. That team won most b/c the officials treated Wade better than they ever treated Jordan in the finals. Mourning was a bit player, they would have won w/ or w/o him.

Ferretsquig
06-11-2009, 01:27 PM
I get it.....Nets fan still pissed off at Mourning.

If you really think he was such a minor part of that championship run go back to the Dallas and Chicago series and watch some games. For both those series, he was the best post player on the court.

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 01:43 PM
I get it.....Nets fan still pissed off at Mourning.

If you really think he was such a minor part of that championship run go back to the Dallas and Chicago series and watch some games. For both those series, he was the best post player on the court.

I'm not still pissed at Mourning, I have always felt he was an overrated player going back to Georgetown when he couldn't win there and nearly lost to a 16 seed in rd 1. Miami would have won the title in '06 w/ or w/o him, he was a bit player. he may have had a couple of good moments but he wasn't someone they relied on.

Dolphins7273
06-11-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm not still pissed at Mourning, I have always felt he was an overrated player going back to Georgetown when he couldn't win there and nearly lost to a 16 seed in rd 1. Miami would have won the title in '06 w/ or w/o him, he was a bit player. he may have had a couple of good moments but he wasn't someone they relied on.

Shaq missed 23 games that season, but you're right, Micheal Doleac would have done just as good a job. :rolleyes:

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 02:49 PM
Shaq missed 18 games that season, but you're right, Micheal Doleac would have done just as good a job. :rolleyes:

He actually missed 23 games and Miami was either 10-13 or 11-12 w/o him and he didn't miss any playoff games. W/ Shaq Miami was either 42-17 or 41-18. Nah, he didn't make much of a difference:lol: The great Alonzo filled in just fine:lol:

Dolphins7273
06-11-2009, 03:11 PM
He actually missed 23 games and Miami was either 10-13 or 11-12 w/o him and he didn't miss any playoff games. W/ Shaq Miami was either 42-17 or 41-18. Nah, he didn't make much of a difference:lol: The great Alonzo filled in just fine:lol:

I edited my post at 2:31 and you posted this at 2:49. Did it really take you 18 minutes to come up with such a stupid post?

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 03:16 PM
I edited my post at 2:31 and you posted this at 2:49. Did it really take you 18 minutes to come up with such a stupid post?

Why is it a stupid post? b/c it shows facts about how good Miami was w/o Shaq? Considering how great Alonzo was why did they struggle w/o Shaq and why couldn't Zo even get to a Finals w/o Shaq and wade?

Dolphins7273
06-11-2009, 03:22 PM
Why is it a stupid post? b/c it shows facts about how good Miami was w/o Shaq? Considering how great Alonzo was why did they struggle w/o Shaq and why couldn't Zo even get to a Finals w/o Shaq and wade?

Point is they would have been a lot worse with Doleac as the backup. Whether you wanna believe it or not, Zo was a big part of that team. Before Shaq and Wade, Zo made it as far as the conference finals but unfortunately ran into MJ and the team of the '90's. He'll also be a hall of famer whether you think so or not, and whether you like it or not.

Ferretsquig
06-11-2009, 03:23 PM
Why is it a stupid post? b/c it shows facts about how good Miami was w/o Shaq?

How good was Miami without 'Zo?

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 03:27 PM
Point is they would have been a lot worse with Doleac as the backup. Whether you wanna believe it or not, Zo was a big part of that team. Before Shaq and Wade, Zo made it as far as the conference finals but unfortunately ran into MJ and the team of the '90's. He'll also be a hall of famer whether you think so or not, and whether you like it or not.

He made ONE conf finals thanks to half the Knick team being suspended. He only made it past the first rd 3 times when he was a player his team built around.

he will not be a HOFer and doesn't deserve to be one.

Amars
06-11-2009, 03:29 PM
Miami wouldnt of even sniffed the finals if it wasnt for Shaq. Especially in the Piston series.

Dolphins7273
06-11-2009, 03:34 PM
He made ONE conf finals thanks to half the Knick team being suspended. He only made it past the first rd 3 times when he was a player his team built around.

he will not be a HOFer and doesn't deserve to be one.

How's it taste?

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/06/4h71gl-1.jpg

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 03:34 PM
How good was Miami without 'Zo?

They made the playoffs twice before him and lost in the first rd(just like Zo's teams in 5 of his 8 years as the best player on his teams).

Zo's last year w/ Miami was '01-'02 when Miami missed the playoffs for the 2nd straight year, in '03-'04 they reached the conf semifinals w/o him(for only the 3rd time in their history they advanced past the first rd)

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 03:35 PM
How's it taste?

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/06/4h71gl-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/06/SignRealityCheck-1.jpg

Dolphins7273
06-11-2009, 03:42 PM
Just watch in a few years he'll be in and you'll be throwing titty tantrums because he didn't do anything with your Nets (and secretly Knicks).

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 03:47 PM
Just watch in a few years he'll be in and you'll be throwing titty tantrums because he didn't do anything with your Nets (and secretly Knicks).

Why are you obsessed w/ trying to label me a KNicks fan? I am a freakin Jet fan, if I can admit that i can admit anything. I support my teams good or bad.

We'll see if he gets in.

SpaceMountain16
06-11-2009, 03:48 PM
Mourning was over rated.
He did ride the coat tails of O'Neal and Wade to the title.
Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches in NBA History. Not over rated.

Dolphins7273
06-11-2009, 03:51 PM
Why are you obsessed w/ trying to label me a KNicks fan? I am a freakin Jet fan, if I can admit that i can admit anything. I support my teams good or bad.

We'll see if he gets in.

Well you must be a fan of some team since you seem to think you know about the NBA. I just assumed that since you're already a fan of one douchebag team there's a good possibility that you're a fan of another.

nyjunc
06-11-2009, 03:57 PM
Well you must be a fan of some team since you seem to think you know about the NBA. I just assumed that since you're already a fan of one douchebag team there's a good possibility that you're a fan of another.

I don't love the NBA anymore but I used to follow it almost as closely as the NFL and I am a Net fan. I don't know what difference it makes, I am posting facts.

X-Pacolypse
06-11-2009, 08:18 PM
Actually, both Shaq and Mourning rode WADE's coatails to a title in 2006.

nyjunc
06-12-2009, 08:07 AM
Actually, both Shaq and Mourning rode WADE's coatails to a title in 2006.

Wade and his FTs did carry Miami to the title BUT they never get that far w/o Shaq. They still win w/o Mourning.

Amars
06-12-2009, 08:29 AM
Miami would of never beat the Piston if it wasnt for Shaq. Wade Free Throw won the title. If the game would of been called like it was last night where the Lakers got ZERO free throws or even normal free throw attempts the Heat would of never won the title.

kud
06-15-2009, 05:38 PM
Junc are you a Nets fan? You sound bitter. I know Zo dissed that team.

Alonzo is a great player.. a legendary defender. He didn't win a title in his prime.. so what? He's not the first great player who hasn't and won't be the last.

nyjunc
06-15-2009, 05:55 PM
Junc are you a Nets fan? You sound bitter. I know Zo dissed that team.

Alonzo is a great player.. a legendary defender. He didn't win a title in his prime.. so what? He's not the first great player who hasn't and won't be the last.

I am a Net fan but I'm not bitter, I just don't like the guy. He was always an overrated player, he's a nice complimentary player but could never be the focal point of a team.

"legendary defender"?:lol: Maybe against Chris Dudley but against real C's he wasn't.

Many great players haven't won titles in their prime but he didn't even make a Finals app and if not for half the Knick team being suspended he wouldn't have made a Conf Finals.

Dolphins7273
06-15-2009, 06:01 PM
I am a Net fan but I'm not bitter, I just don't like the guy. He was always an overrated player, he's a nice complimentary player but could never be the focal point of a team.

"legendary defender"?:lol: Maybe against Chris Dudley but against real C's he wasn't.

Many great players haven't won titles in their prime but he didn't even make a Finals app and if not for half the Knick team being suspended he wouldn't have made a Conf Finals.

You're right, he's a two time DPOY and top 10 in blocks despite missing a couple of years due to his illness and becoming a backup afterwards. You really don't sound bitter at all...

nyjunc
06-15-2009, 06:06 PM
You're right, he's a two time DPOY and top 10 in blocks despite missing a couple of years due to his illness and becoming a backup afterwards. You really don't sound bitter at all...

Legendary defender is stretching it, don't you think? 2 time DPOY w/ one of those years being the lockout shortened season.

Ben Wallace has won it twice, is he legendary?

Mutombo 4 times, is he legendary?

Mark Eaton won it twice, is he legendary?


I understand fans overrated their players but come on. Alonzo was a good player, never a star, never a guy who could win as a teams top option.

kud
06-15-2009, 06:09 PM
I am a Net fan but I'm not bitter, I just don't like the guy. He was always an overrated player, he's a nice complimentary player but could never be the focal point of a team.

"legendary defender"?:lol: Maybe against Chris Dudley but against real C's he wasn't.

Many great players haven't won titles in their prime but he didn't even make a Finals app and if not for half the Knick team being suspended he wouldn't have made a Conf Finals.

Sheesh. He's 6th all-time blocks per game average (2.85) 10th all time in total blocks but please consider he played 300-500 less games than nearly everyone else in the top 10.. so one of the best shot blockers in history.

nyjunc
06-15-2009, 06:13 PM
Still not legendary in any aspect other than stealing money from multiple franchises.

kud
06-15-2009, 06:37 PM
Still not legendary in any aspect other than stealing money from multiple franchises.

:chuckle: yeah, you're not a bitter Nets fan.

Zo was a 20/10 player in his prime. He wasn't someone you could lean on offensively but he was a difference maker. He's the reason Miami stayed competitive for so many years, the Heat only knew what losing was until Zo arrived.

If you'd forgotten, the Heat had to contend with the Bulls, who dominated that era of basketball.

He wasn't a great player, no - just a 7X all star 2x DPOY, 2x ALL-NBA, and 1x NBA champion, if you think he wasn't a difference maker in those finals you should go back and watch again.

Possum
06-16-2009, 12:46 AM
i love zo

nyjunc
06-17-2009, 08:06 AM
:chuckle: yeah, you're not a bitter Nets fan.

Zo was a 20/10 player in his prime. He wasn't someone you could lean on offensively but he was a difference maker. He's the reason Miami stayed competitive for so many years, the Heat only knew what losing was until Zo arrived.

If you'd forgotten, the Heat had to contend with the Bulls, who dominated that era of basketball.

He wasn't a great player, no - just a 7X all star 2x DPOY, 2x ALL-NBA, and 1x NBA champion, if you think he wasn't a difference maker in those finals you should go back and watch again.

My original post got deleted yesterday. I'll try to post the same thing.


Zo was a 20/10 player just FOUR times in his career. His prime last about 10 years. Is that HOF caliber?

7 time all-star? see list below of guys who have made at least 7 all-star games:

JoJo White
Tracy McGrady
Louie Dampier
Yao Ming
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Chet Walker
Larry Foust 8
Dikembe Mutombo 8


2 time DPOY(one being in lockout shortened season). Other multiple DPOY award winners

-Sidney Moncrief
-Mark Eaton
-Ben Wallace
-Dikembe 4x

2 times all-NBA. Only one time first team and again it was the lockout shortened season.

1 time NBA Champion riding the coattails of Shaq and Wade. They would have won w/ or w/o him. He was along for the ride.

dolfanchris
06-17-2009, 08:39 AM
wow this thread is seriously going on for too long lol ... lets keep it going !!when will the nets win a championship ???

nyjunc
06-17-2009, 08:49 AM
wow this thread is seriously going on for too long lol ... lets keep it going !!when will the nets win a championship ???

The Nets have 2 Championships(ABA) and made 2 finals apps this decade but weren't lucky enough to run into Dallas and instead faced the lakers and Spurs.

SpurzN703
06-17-2009, 09:46 AM
The Nets have 2 Championships(ABA) and made 2 finalls apps this decade but weren't lucky enough to run into Dallas and instead faced the lakers and Spurs.

Once Vince Carter is gone I believe the Nets will be a better team. With a guy like Devin Harris to build around and a solid C in Brook Lopez, the Nets future looks decent IMO.

nyjunc
06-17-2009, 09:57 AM
Once Vince Carter is gone I believe the Nets will be a better team. With a guy like Devin Harris to build around and a solid C in Brook Lopez, the Nets future looks decent IMO.

Lopez is really good, I was shocked and happy when he fell to the Nets. I like Vince and he ahs chancged his game over the years but his contract is holding them back a bit. I think the Nets have alot of young talent and will be a playoff team next year(7-8 seed type).

milldog
06-17-2009, 11:24 AM
My original post got deleted yesterday. I'll try to post the same thing.


Zo was a 20/10 player just FOUR times in his career. His prime last about 10 years. Is that HOF caliber?

7 time all-star? see list below of guys who have made at least 7 all-star games:

JoJo White
Tracy McGrady
Louie Dampier
Yao Ming
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Chet Walker
Larry Foust 8
Dikembe Mutombo 8


2 time DPOY(one being in lockout shortened season). Other multiple DPOY award winners

-Sidney Moncrief
-Mark Eaton
-Ben Wallace
-Dikembe 4x

2 times all-NBA. Only one time first team and again it was the lockout shortened season.

1 time NBA Champion riding the coattails of Shaq and Wade. They would have won w/ or w/o him. He was along for the ride.

Come on man, you're bitter as hell. You're a hater, got it. Doesn't change the fact that Zo that he's Riley's favorite player..all time.. said it himself. But he's overrated, kinda like your Jets!

SpurzN703
06-17-2009, 11:29 AM
Lopez is really good, I was shocked and happy when he fell to the Nets. I like Vince and he ahs chancged his game over the years but his contract is holding them back a bit. I think the Nets have alot of young talent and will be a playoff team next year(7-8 seed type).

They still need a SG and to give Anderson more playing time and a little depth on the bench but in the East, they can get in.

nyjunc
06-17-2009, 11:37 AM
Come on man, you're bitter as hell. You're a hater, got it. Doesn't change the fact that Zo that he's Riley's favorite player..all time.. said it himself. But he's overrated, kinda like your Jets!

Who cares if he is Riley's all-time favorite or not? What does that have to do w/ him being an HOF player? He's an overrated player, #s don't lie. Only 2 All NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd teams, only made the all D team twice, could never win when he was the focal point of a team. heck even in college as a 1 seed his GU team nearly lost to 16th seeded Princeton and wound up losing in the Sweet 16 and that was his ONLY trip to the Sweet 16 in 4 years despite being a high seed 3 of the 4 years. The man is a choker, he was a GOOD player but no way belongs in the HOF discussion.

SpurzN703
06-17-2009, 03:20 PM
Who cares if he is Riley's all-time favorite or not? What does that have to do w/ him being an HOF player? He's an overrated player, #s don't lie. Only 2 All NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd teams, only made the all D team twice, could never win when he was the focal point of a team. heck even in college as a 1 seed his GU team nearly lost to 16th seeded Princeton and wound up losing in the Sweet 16 and that was his ONLY trip to the Sweet 16 in 4 years despite being a high seed 3 of the 4 years. The man is a choker, he was a GOOD player but no way belongs in the HOF discussion.

Weren't numbers just a part of how good a player is? ;)

nyjunc
06-17-2009, 04:20 PM
Weren't numbers just a part of how good a player is? ;)

Individual #s don't tell the whole story but the fact that his teams always underachieved in postseason when he was the focal point tell the rest. :D

kud
06-17-2009, 04:30 PM
My original post got deleted yesterday. I'll try to post the same thing.


Zo was a 20/10 player just FOUR times in his career. His prime last about 10 years. Is that HOF caliber?

7 time all-star? see list below of guys who have made at least 7 all-star games:

JoJo White
Tracy McGrady
Louie Dampier
Yao Ming
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Chet Walker
Larry Foust 8
Dikembe Mutombo 8


2 time DPOY(one being in lockout shortened season). Other multiple DPOY award winners

-Sidney Moncrief
-Mark Eaton
-Ben Wallace
-Dikembe 4x

2 times all-NBA. Only one time first team and again it was the lockout shortened season.

1 time NBA Champion riding the coattails of Shaq and Wade. They would have won w/ or w/o him. He was along for the ride.

Most of those names you mentioned are well before my time so I won't pretend like I can compare them to Zo, however, researching some of them I don't recognize it seems they too were great players in their own right, a couple of which just missed out on the HoF.

And where did I say that Zo was a hall of famer? I said he was a great player. You also suggested that I claimed Zo was a legendary player.. no.. I said he was a legendary defender, which his shot blocking statistics speak for themself.

I said Zo was a great player, and he was. He did great things for Miami, turning a losing expansion franchise into a consistent contender every year. Zo was a top 10(probably top 5) center of the 1990s.

nyjunc
06-17-2009, 04:38 PM
Great players make the HOF, Zo was not great. he was good. Miami was never a true contender w/ Zo as the focal point, they made the one conf finals thanks to half the Knick team getting suspended. he certainly wasn't a top 5 C of the 90s, probably top 10.

kud
06-17-2009, 05:00 PM
Great players make the HOF, Zo was not great. he was good. Miami was never a true contender w/ Zo as the focal point, they made the one conf finals thanks to half the Knick team getting suspended. he certainly wasn't a top 5 C of the 90s, probably top 10.

Really? Who then?

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutumbo

And, no, the greatest players(or legends) get into the hall of fame. There are still plenty of great players who won't and don't make it.

SpurzN703
06-17-2009, 05:05 PM
Really? Who then?

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutumbo

And, no, the greatest players(or legends) get into the hall of fame. There are still plenty of great players who won't and don't make it.

The reason I became a Spurs fan :hi5:

kud
06-17-2009, 05:07 PM
So, according to your logic Junc if you don't win a title with your team you're not great..

so.. Elgin Baylor wasn't great, Barkley wasn't, Karl Malone/Stockton wasn't, Dominique Wilkins?

nyjunc
06-17-2009, 05:42 PM
Really? Who then?

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutumbo

And, no, the greatest players(or legends) get into the hall of fame. There are still plenty of great players who won't and don't make it.

You just named 5 so clearly he isn't top 5.


So, according to your logic Junc if you don't win a title with your team you're not great..

so.. Elgin Baylor wasn't great, Barkley wasn't, Karl Malone/Stockton wasn't, Dominique Wilkins?

Not at all. When Dominique had good teams around him he had the Celtics, Sixers and Pistons to run into.

Barkley made the NBA Finals

Malone/Stockton made TWO Finals

Baylor made a million Finals apps


Zo only made 1 conf final and did so b/c another team had half it's team suspended in the semis. He was part of a 1 seed that lost to an 8 seed. Mourning was a nice, complimentary player thrust into the role of franchise player. He does not belong in the HOF discussion.

kud
06-17-2009, 06:16 PM
You just named 5 so clearly he isn't top 5.

I named 5, the 5th being Zo. You are correct. An argument could be made to put Mutumbo ahead, but it's close enough to not matter. He was a top 5 center for that decade.




Not at all. When Dominique had good teams around him he had the Celtics, Sixers and Pistons to run into.

Barkley made the NBA Finals

Malone/Stockton made TWO Finals

Baylor made a million Finals apps


Zo only made 1 conf final and did so b/c another team had half it's team suspended in the semis. He was part of a 1 seed that lost to an 8 seed. Mourning was a nice, complimentary player thrust into the role of franchise player. He does not belong in the HOF discussion.

Your logic is unraveling in front of your eyes. Stop trying to tip toe around it.

Malone/Stockton are two great players who played TOGETHER they still couldn't win, why? This team called the Chicago Bulls.


And you don't think those Knicks teams were good with Ewing, Houston, Johnson? They were as good as a team as the Heat, and got the better of us in close out games of extremely close series.

Wouldn't you say Ewing cancels out Zo? And it's not like the Heat weren't competitve against the Knicks, but yes they did beat us more. The year we beat the Knicks we ran into the Bulls in the EFC. A team which would have beaten the Heat any year anyway.

And for the 3rd time now I didn't claim Zo was a HoFer. As for what qualifies as being 'great' that's a matter of opinion. I'd speculate most basketball fans would agree that you don't have to be a hall of famer to be considered a great player but maybe i'm wrong.

Some players don't win because of circumstance, not lack of individual talent, in all sports. Learn to accept that fact.

Amars
06-17-2009, 06:34 PM
Zo was good player but I think he piggy back a championship and rob the nets of $$$. I dont think he was great center but a decent one.

GoonBoss
06-17-2009, 09:23 PM
Phil Jackson has had some of the most talented player of a Generation on his team...Oh, wait...So did Red Auerbach. Great men know how to make the most of great talent. One could argue, Jackson could have imploded both the Bulls and, the Lakers. He didn't. He managed both teams through tough times and, set a standard for team play and legitimate consistant excellence. To say that Phil Jackson is "just showing up" is to say, all great coaches "just show up."

nyjunc
06-18-2009, 08:29 AM
I named 5, the 5th being Zo. You are correct. An argument could be made to put Mutumbo ahead, but it's close enough to not matter. He was a top 5 center for that decade.





Your logic is unraveling in front of your eyes. Stop trying to tip toe around it.

Malone/Stockton are two great players who played TOGETHER they still couldn't win, why? This team called the Chicago Bulls.


And you don't think those Knicks teams were good with Ewing, Houston, Johnson? They were as good as a team as the Heat, and got the better of us in close out games of extremely close series.

Wouldn't you say Ewing cancels out Zo? And it's not like the Heat weren't competitve against the Knicks, but yes they did beat us more. The year we beat the Knicks we ran into the Bulls in the EFC. A team which would have beaten the Heat any year anyway.

And for the 3rd time now I didn't claim Zo was a HoFer. As for what qualifies as being 'great' that's a matter of opinion. I'd speculate most basketball fans would agree that you don't have to be a hall of famer to be considered a great player but maybe i'm wrong.

Some players don't win because of circumstance, not lack of individual talent, in all sports. Learn to accept that fact.

Mutombo is clearly ahead of him b/c he was a great defensive player.

DM all D team 1st team 3 times, Zo twice
DM all D 2nd team 3 times, Zo NONE
DM all NBA 3 times, Zo twice
DM DPOY 4 times, ZO twice
DM 8 AS games, Zo 7
DM 1st in total rebs 4 times, Zo NONE
both 1st in blocks twice

These 2 aren't close.


Unraveling?:lol2: You have brought nothing to support your claim.

Stockton and malone made the West Finals multiple times before making 2 Finals apps

Those Knick teams were good but far from great and the '99 version wasn't as good as the '99 Heat yet they beat them as an 8 seed.

The year you beat the Knicks half the Knick team was suspended! you wouldn't have made the conf finals that year had it nto been for that brawl.

I agree Zo isn't a HOFre but he also wasn't great.

I agree somewaht w/ your last line but why did Zo always have circumstances preventing him? He had great college talent and never even made an elite 8, he had good teams around him in the NBA and made 1 conf final(again b/c of suspensions). Zo was not a big time player, he was a complimentary player thrust into a stars role which he couldn't handle.

SpurzN703
06-18-2009, 10:09 AM
Phil Jackson has had some of the most talented player of a Generation on his team...Oh, wait...So did Red Auerbach. Great men know how to make the most of great talent. One could argue, Jackson could have imploded both the Bulls and, the Lakers. He didn't. He managed both teams through tough times and, set a standard for team play and legitimate consistant excellence. To say that Phil Jackson is "just showing up" is to say, all great coaches "just show up."

Teams that win championships always have great players on their team. I hate it when people try and use that as an excuse for why a coach like Phil Jackson has as many titles as he does (not blaming you Goon).

Phil had Pippen and Jordan/Shaq and Kobe
Celtics had Garnett, Allen and Pierce
Lakers had Bryant and Gasol
Spurs had Duncan, Parker and Ginobili
Pistons had Billups, Wallace and Hamilton

Not to mention all the talent that came off the bench for these teams too. Championships teams always have superstar talent on their roster (NBA that is). That's how you in. Phil Jackson has 10 rings now and certainly has to be considered in the Top 3 of all-time, at least.

kud
06-18-2009, 03:25 PM
Mutombo is clearly ahead of him b/c he was a great defensive player.

DM all D team 1st team 3 times, Zo twice
DM all D 2nd team 3 times, Zo NONE
DM all NBA 3 times, Zo twice
DM DPOY 4 times, ZO twice
DM 8 AS games, Zo 7
DM 1st in total rebs 4 times, Zo NONE
both 1st in blocks twice

These 2 aren't close.


Unraveling?:lol2: You have brought nothing to support your claim.

Stockton and malone made the West Finals multiple times before making 2 Finals apps

Those Knick teams were good but far from great and the '99 version wasn't as good as the '99 Heat yet they beat them as an 8 seed.

The year you beat the Knicks half the Knick team was suspended! you wouldn't have made the conf finals that year had it nto been for that brawl.

I agree Zo isn't a HOFre but he also wasn't great.

I agree somewaht w/ your last line but why did Zo always have circumstances preventing him? He had great college talent and never even made an elite 8, he had good teams around him in the NBA and made 1 conf final(again b/c of suspensions). Zo was not a big time player, he was a complimentary player thrust into a stars role which he couldn't handle.

What the.. "These two aren't close."? Time to wake up and sniff the smelling salts, you're in fantasy land. And you actually bring up Mutombo's individual achievements - but when it's convenient to you it's ok right?


Zo's peak was higher, Mutombo had the longevity. Zo was the bigger offensive threat, always. Defensively it's a wash. I'd love for you to explain to me how it wasn't close outside of a couple of individual achievment awards.

As for team success, i'm not going to argue in circles with you about that. Your logic is just silly to me. You have to make a finals (even if you never win it) to be considered great.. Well, what is defined as "great" is open to interpretation, and we could argue all day about it and get no where, so lets not waste eachothers time.

kud
06-18-2009, 03:40 PM
By the way Junc, since you like team success so much, you should probably include that in your argument.. for Zo and DM's success. You can't only use that criteria when it's convenient to your argument, like you've done with individual achievement awards.., hater.

SpurzN703
06-18-2009, 04:13 PM
Ok guys. List Mutumbo's and Mourning's stats as well as their team's records each year they played and how many/if any playoff games were won. Then include individual awards and then I believe we'll come to who is the better player.

kud
06-18-2009, 08:25 PM
Ok guys. List Mutumbo's and Mourning's stats as well as their team's records each year they played and how many/if any playoff games were won. Then include individual awards and then I believe we'll come to who is the better player.

Sure, here's the stats.

92-93 - Mutombo Games 82 Minutes 37.
14 pts 13 rebs 3.5 blocks FG% 51

(Rookie) 92-93 - Mourning Games 78 Minutes 34
21 pts 10 rebs 3.5 blocks FG% 51

93-94 - Mutombo Games 82 Minutes 34
12 pts 12 rebs 4 blocks FG% 57

93-94 - Mourning Games 60 Minutes 34
21.5 pts 10 rebs 3 blocks FG% 50

94-95 - Mutombo Games 82 Minutes 38
11.5 pts 12.5 rebs 4.0 blocks FG% 55.

94-95 - Mourning Games 77 Minutes 38
21 pts 10 rebs 3 blocks FG% 52

95-96 - Mutombo Games 74 Minutes 37
11 pts 12 rebs 4.5 blocks FG% 50

95-96 - Mourning Games 70 Minutes 38
23 pts 10.5 rebs 3 blocks FG% 52

96-97 - Mutombo Games 80 Minutes 37
13 pts 12 rebs 3 blocks FG% 53

96-97 - Mourning Games 65 Minutes 35
20 pts 10 rebs 3 blocks FG% 53

97-98 - Mutombo Games 82 Minutes 36
13 pts 11 rebs 3 blocks FG% 54

97-98 - Mourning Games 58 Minutes 33
19 pts 10 rebs 2 blocks FG% 55

98-99 - Mutomobo Games 50 Minutes 37
11 pts 12 rebs 3 blocks FG% 51

98-99 - Mourning Games 46 Minutes 38
20 pts 11 rebs 4 blocks FG% 51

99-00 - Mutombo Games 82 Minutes 36
11.5 pts 14 rebs 3 blocks FG% 56

99-00 - Mourning Games 78 Minutes 35
22 pts 10 rebs 4 blocks FG % 55

Zo helped the Hornets get to the playoffs 2-3 years before he joined Miami. When he joined Miami they were 18 games under .500. The Heat didn't miss the playoffs once in the 90s once Zo arrived and posted a few 50+ win seasons and 60 win season however they often made early round exits. 3 playoff series won and 4 1st round exits with the Heat.

Mutombo made the playoffs with the Nuggets 2 of the 5 years he was with them. One 50+ win season, and one playoff series won. He then joined Atlanta, already a playoff team of 4 consecutive years, they got 10 wins better in Mutombos first year and made the playoffs 3 of the 4 seasons he was there.

milldog
06-18-2009, 09:32 PM
Great job boys... Nyjunc doesn't like Zo, all good, but back to title of topic, Phil is the man and to win 10 championships in this era of free agency and all other intangibles...mmmJORDAN... shows he definately is the leader and knows how to get the most from his team, he definately doesn't just "show" up.. at least not since MJ retired, j/k!

nyjunc
06-19-2009, 09:51 AM
What the.. "These two aren't close."? Time to wake up and sniff the smelling salts, you're in fantasy land. And you actually bring up Mutombo's individual achievements - but when it's convenient to you it's ok right?


Zo's peak was higher, Mutombo had the longevity. Zo was the bigger offensive threat, always. Defensively it's a wash. I'd love for you to explain to me how it wasn't close outside of a couple of individual achievment awards.

As for team success, i'm not going to argue in circles with you about that. Your logic is just silly to me. You have to make a finals (even if you never win it) to be considered great.. Well, what is defined as "great" is open to interpretation, and we could argue all day about it and get no where, so lets not waste eachothers time.

Zo was a better offensive player but Mutombo was a dominat defnesive player. Mutombo had the better career and was the better player.

You don't have to win anything to be considered great but you have to elevate your team, he had teams that had Finals level talent and he only led them to one conf finals thanks to the opponent getting suspended.


By the way Junc, since you like team success so much, you should probably include that in your argument.. for Zo and DM's success. You can't only use that criteria when it's convenient to your argument, like you've done with individual achievement awards.., hater.

Mutombo was never a player a team built around, Zo was. I think Zo would have had a better career than Mutombo IF he was a complimentary player like Mutombo but he was a player Riley built around and it was proven they couldn't win building around him.

Amars
06-19-2009, 10:37 AM
mutumbo is more likeable then Zo that for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx86Nj4Ek00

SpurzN703
06-19-2009, 11:28 AM
Zo was a better offensive player but Mutombo was a dominat defnesive player. Mutombo had the better career and was the better player.

You don't have to win anything to be considered great but you have to elevate your team, he had teams that had Finals level talent and he only led them to one conf finals thanks to the opponent getting suspended.



Mutombo was never a player a team built around, Zo was. I think Zo would have had a better career than Mutombo IF he was a complimentary player like Mutombo but he was a player Riley built around and it was proven they couldn't win building around him.

If one was a better offensive player and the other a better defensive player, how does one choose which had the better career? If anything I'd say they both had great careers in different ways (Offensivly for one, defensively for another).

nyjunc
06-19-2009, 11:46 AM
If one was a better offensive player and the other a better defensive player, how does one choose which had the better career? If anything I'd say they both had great careers in different ways (Offensivly for one, defensively for another).

Mutombo was a dominant defensive player, Zo was a decent offensive player.

SpurzN703
06-19-2009, 11:49 AM
Mutombo was a dominant defensive player, Zo was a decent offensive player.

This is a comparison of the two former centers. DM being better defensively as that was his game, AM being better offensively and was also good defensively as well.

As far as who had the better career, to me it depends on what you're looking for the player to bring to your team. If you want a defensive player who can score on occasion like a Ben Wallace, you for for Mutombo. If you want a guy who can score and play defense, you go with AM.

It all depends on what you're looking for.

nyjunc
06-19-2009, 12:48 PM
This is a comparison of the two former centers. DM being better defensively as that was his game, AM being better offensively and was also good defensively as well.

As far as who had the better career, to me it depends on what you're looking for the player to bring to your team. If you want a defensive player who can score on occasion like a Ben Wallace, you for for Mutombo. If you want a guy who can score and play defense, you go with AM.

It all depends on what you're looking for.

I think Mourning was a better all around player BUT he was counted on to be a star player and he clearly wasn't capable of that. Mutombo had the better career b/c he was used better, he was never a top option, never a guy a team built around but Miami made the mistake of building around Mourning when he needed to be a complimentary player.

SpurzN703
06-19-2009, 12:55 PM
I think Mourning was a better all around player BUT he was counted on to be a star player and he clearly wasn't capable of that. Mutombo had the better career b/c he was used better, he was never a top option, never a guy a team built around but Miami made the mistake of building around Mourning when he needed to be a complimentary player.

Understood. But is it Mourning's fault the Heat billed them as the franchise player even if he wasn't equipped to fill that role?

nyjunc
06-19-2009, 01:03 PM
Not his fault but that's the way it worked out.

Ferretsquig
06-19-2009, 01:29 PM
My goodness......how much time can a person waste arguing semantics? He was a great player for Heat fans....not so much for Nets fans.

nyjunc
06-19-2009, 01:41 PM
He wasn't a great player, heat fans may have loved him but that doesn't make him great.

SpurzN703
06-19-2009, 03:31 PM
My goodness......how much time can a person waste arguing semantics? He was a great player for Heat fans....not so much for Nets fans.

Junc and I aren't arguing, he just has a problem with people who don't agree with his view. Me? I don't give a **** about who's better, I just enjoy the discussion.

Junc says he isn't great, others say he is. Who cares who is right or wrong?

nyjunc
06-19-2009, 04:51 PM
Junc and I aren't arguing, he just has a problem with people who don't agree with his view. Me? I don't give a **** about who's better, I just enjoy the discussion.

Junc says he isn't great, others say he is. Who cares who is right or wrong?

I don't have a problem w/ anyone. I present my case and I think I do a better job than most at presenting a case. It's fun debating these topics and we all learn new things during these debates. Why do people get so flustered by them?

SpurzN703
06-19-2009, 05:18 PM
I don't have a problem w/ anyone. I present my case and I think I do a better job than most at presenting a case. It's fun debating these topics and we all learn new things during these debates. Why do people get so flustered by them?

Eh who knows. People stick to their opinions and sometimes just won't see any other way around it (not singling anyone out here). This happens especially when it's about something a person is passionate about (in this case, sports).

kud
06-19-2009, 08:14 PM
I don't have a problem w/ anyone. I present my case and I think I do a better job than most at presenting a case. It's fun debating these topics and we all learn new things during these debates. Why do people get so flustered by them?

I don't learn from trolls, but i am guilty of being drawn in by them on occasion, which is evident by this discussion.

Your whole argument is that Zo never won a title, so I presented you with a list of greats who also haven't, you then switched to 'well Zo hasn't made the finals.'

I then claimed Zo is a top 5 center of the 90s, you said no he isn't. I made you a list backing my claim, you then say Mourning isn't close to Mutombo, I provided stats that show they were extremely close and an argument can be made either way, your retort is that Mutombo didn't carry his team.. wouldn't that make Zo more valuable? Considering he was the focal point of his team and he lead his team to the playoffs more often than Mutombo's teams whom he didn't even have to carry?

Stick to egging on Dolphin homers it's what you do best. :dolphins:

nyjunc
06-20-2009, 08:02 AM
I don't learn from trolls, but i am guilty of being drawn in by them on occasion, which is evident by this discussion.

Your whole argument is that Zo never won a title, so I presented you with a list of greats who also haven't, you then switched to 'well Zo hasn't made the finals.'

I then claimed Zo is a top 5 center of the 90s, you said no he isn't. I made you a list backing my claim, you then say Mourning isn't close to Mutombo, I provided stats that show they were extremely close and an argument can be made either way, your retort is that Mutombo didn't carry his team.. wouldn't that make Zo more valuable? Considering he was the focal point of his team and he lead his team to the playoffs more often than Mutombo's teams whom he didn't even have to carry?

Stick to egging on Dolphin homers it's what you do best. :dolphins:


Apparently you don't read my posts b/c you don't understand what my argument has been. I highlighted the fact that w/ Zo as the main guy Miami never even made a Finals app and only made ONE conf finals thanks to their opponent having half it's team suspended for the final few games. he has also been on just TWO all-NBA teams, was supposedly a great defensive player but was also on just TWO all-D teams and one of the all NBA/All D years was the lockout shortened season so he only made one all d and all NBA team during full seasons.

He was a GOOD player not great. I understand Heat fans will think differently b/c they have an emotional attachment to the guy but sepearte yourself from that and you'll see that it i clear the guy wasn't a great player.



You claimed Zo was top 5 then showed 5 guys that were better than him. He's not close to Mutombo b/c Mutombo was a great defensive player, ZO wasn't great in any area and the # of all-NBA, all-D, DPOYs favors Mutombo by a wide margin.

My retort wasn't Mutombo didn't carry his team it was that teams weren't built around Mutombo while Miami foolishly built around Zo. Had Zo been a complimenatry player I think he would have been better than Mutombo but he was the focal point. You can't rewrite history.

What I do best on this board is debating these topics and presenting evidence to support my arguments. I am the minority here so I am always attacked but that doesn't change the fact that I do a good job of backing up my arguments. Ask any non-Heat fan to judge this debate and it would be clear who got the better of it.

SpurzN703
06-23-2009, 04:28 PM
Apparently you don't read my posts b/c you don't understand what my argument has been.



Your posts are read, it's just that a lot of the time you're disagreed with.

nyjunc
06-23-2009, 04:34 PM
Your posts are read, it's just that a lot of the time you're disagreed with.

I have no problem w/ people disagreeing w/ me but they better back up their arguments b/c you know I'll back my argument up.