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View Full Version : God cannot be considered "loving" if he sends his children to "hell"



SkapePhin
06-11-2009, 10:05 PM
Let me put this in human terms... Say a parent demands that their child act a certain way, or that it abstain from certain activities. Now say this child continually disobeys the parent. Would it ever be appropriate or could it ever be considered a loving act for the parent to then lock the child in their basement, chain them to the highbeams, and whip them with a scorching hot chain for the rest of their lives as punishment for their disobedience?

PATSSUCK
06-11-2009, 10:14 PM
OMG, you have no idea what you just started. lol

HansMojo
06-12-2009, 12:37 AM
Let me put this in human terms... Say a parent demands that their child act a certain way, or that it abstain from certain activities. Now say this child continually disobeys the parent. Would it ever be appropriate or could it ever be considered a loving act for the parent to then lock the child in their basement, chain them to the highbeams, and whip them with a scorching hot chain for the rest of their lives as punishment for their disobedience?
Like most people, I've known parents with extremely rebellious children. Whether the child had chosen a path of drug abuse, prostitution, or violent crime, these parents tried everything in their power to point them in a better direction. They continued to love them always, but once the children became adults, they no longer had authority over them and in a sense had to give them up to their bad decisions and the consequences of those decisions. I haven't known any parents who were willing to torture their children for the rest of their lives and certainly not for all of eternity for their sins.

I don't believe God plans to torture anyone for all of eternity either (or hire Satan to take care of it for Him), though I do believe that God will put a permanent end to all the sin that takes place on this planet in part because sin leads to suffering. God will not allow suffering to continue forever and I am grateful for this. Based on my understanding of the Bible, God will accomplish this by putting a permanent end to those who would continue to create suffering (even in God's Kingdom if they were allowed to enter).

While I believe in Hell (it's in the Bible), I don't believe that mainstream Christianity has interpreted all the details correctly regarding what Hell is and unfortunately there is an unnecessary distortion of God's character at the core of the *Eternal* Hell doctrine...IMHO. One can examine the plethora of texts on the matter and come to the conclusion that while the results of Hell will last forever (sin problem permanently removed), the actual burning up of the wicked will only last as long as it takes an Eternal fire that can not be quenched to burn them up. Only the results of this purge will last forever, not the suffering. One text that helps is Malachi 4:1 and the GWT version makes things very clear though any translation I've read can work:

"Certainly the day is coming! It will burn like a furnace. All arrogant people and all evildoers will be [like] straw. The day that is coming will burn them up completely," says the LORD of Armies. "It won't leave a single root or branch. (God's Word Translation)

Straw burns quickly. They will be burnt up completely. Nothing will be left (neither root nor branch...think of a tree completely removed with not even the roots left behind...gone!).

IMHO, God will return, the wicked will be destroyed with an Eternal fire, and those that remain will live for eternity in peace with God and with each other. There will not be an extended or permanent period of torture. It will simply be an end and a new beginning. IMHO, this interpretation is much more in harmony with the idea that God is love and we are His children.

SkapePhin
06-12-2009, 01:06 AM
Thanks for the very comprehensive response Hans. I recall you were always one of the best representatives of Christianity among the people I have debated religion with online.

In any case, even though you admit yours is merely an interpretation of the Bible, and others have a far different view of hell, even in your interpretation a level of torture exists. From the way you portrayed it, there will be an immense amount of pain that the victims of hell will endure before their are eventually "extinguished"... Don't you think that is a bit harsh for those whose only "crime" is to not have believed in God and Jesus without evidence?

Sure, scorching pain would be appropriate for rapists and murderers, but apparrently this punishment would be dealt to simple nonbelievers as well. An atheist, who led an otherwise moral life, surely would not deserve such a punishment, but you say such a punishment awaits for him as well. How, then, could you attribute the adjective "loving" to a parent who would set their child ablaze simply for not following them blindly?

In reality, God is nothing more than an absentee father who only communicates to us through an old tattered journal he wrote before we were born... Would you follow everything in this journal without question? Would this father be in the right if he were to suddenly show up one day an reprimand the child for not following all his instructions while he was away incommunicado?

I just don't see how anyone could justify ANY level of hell for otherwise moral people who simply just do not see the evidence enough to follow Him blindly. Why not just make it so they cease to exist upon death? Heck, that is what Atheists believe happens anyway... Why the need to throw a BBQ with their poor souls first?

HansMojo
06-12-2009, 02:06 AM
Thanks for the very comprehensive response Hans. I recall you were always one of the best representatives of Christianity among the people I have debated religion with online.

In any case, even though you admit yours is merely an interpretation of the Bible, and others have a far different view of hell, even in your interpretation a level of torture exists. From the way you portrayed it, there will be an immense amount of pain that the victims of hell will endure before their are eventually "extinguished"... Don't you think that is a bit harsh for those whose only "crime" is to not have believed in God and Jesus without evidence?

Sure, scorching pain would be appropriate for rapists and murderers, but apparrently this punishment would be dealt to simple nonbelievers as well. An atheist, who led an otherwise moral life, surely would not deserve such a punishment, but you say such a punishment awaits for him as well. How, then, could you attribute the adjective "loving" to a parent who would set their child ablaze simply for not following them blindly?

In reality, God is nothing more than an absentee father who only communicates to us through an old tattered journal he wrote before we were born... Would you follow everything in this journal without question? Would this father be in the right if he were to suddenly show up one day an reprimand the child for not following all his instructions while he was away incommunicado?

I just don't see how anyone could justify ANY level of hell for otherwise moral people who simply just do not see the evidence enough to follow Him blindly. Why not just make it so they cease to exist upon death? Heck, that is what Atheists believe happens anyway... Why the need to throw a BBQ with their poor souls first?

I understand your point. However, I personally don't think God asks anyone to believe without evidence. There are different kinds of evidence and I believe that God will make sure everyone has enough to make a decision (even those who never heard His name will have opportunity to allow Him to write His law on their hearts or rebel against this...see Romans 2:14-17). Nor do I believe anyone will be lost because of true ignorance (God knows the heart. I don't). I don't believe anyone who is innocent will suffer. Only God knows who is truly innocent and who is truly guilty.

I do believe that everyone who will be lost will be lost because of rebellion and willful rejection (again, whether they heard His name or not). IMHO, people will be lost because they would continue to sin and thus cause suffering if allowed to live (my interpretation). In other words, those who will be lost would knowingly choose sin because this is what they prefer to God's will...or would do so if given the opportunity. Again, God knows the heart, I don't.

Honestly, I have no idea how long it will take to burn up the wicked or how much pain if any that they will feel. The Bible says that they will be like straw (some translations say chaff) and we're not talking about normal fire but an Eternal and unquenchable fire. I imagine it will be pretty instantaneous, but I've heard people suggest that the Hitler's of the world will burn longer and suffer a lot more but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. I don't make any claims to know all the details and although I can debate the eternal burning part using scripture, I freely admit that some of the details I mention above is simply my belief based on what the Bible does say about Hell, God's character, and what the Bible says about how Jesus treated people and the price He paid for our redemption.

I imagine the worst part of it all will be seeing the return of the Lord and knowing that time was up...

To sum it all up, I believe that God is love and He is not out to cause suffering but to put an end to it. He seeks to put an end to it so that their can be a new beginning and a future without sin. I personally can't wait!

SoJoMike
06-12-2009, 06:49 AM
There is a simple explanation for all of this: the Bible was written by troubled individuals who found comfort by inventing a God that would "forgive" sins they felt they were committing. I never personally understood the need God (as creator of the universe, master of all things in existence, etc...) would have for human frailties such as jealousy, anger, the need to be worshipped, etc....

I have always been troubled by this. sort of thing. I was raised in a christian environment and often times felt I was the only sane person at the christian church I was forced to attend. I have wanted to get the bible references together that defy simple logic, but I only budget about 10 or 15 minutes per day for this site and spend most of that looking at Dolphins stuff (go figure).

Bottom line is religion was invented so humans could have comfort in something have no control over. The rules were set based in part on this. You don't have to stock shelves at the Walmart to figure that one out.

Of course this is all just my opinion, but well justified I think in light of how simple and predictable our species behaves when in fear and in need of comfort. Debating religion is useless because it is clearly not a perfect solution (as one would expect from a perfect God). It boils down to having faith. But this thread was created because yet another person has realized the christian God doesn't quite pass the "smell" test.

emeraldfin
06-12-2009, 07:39 AM
I understand your point. However, I personally don't think God asks anyone to believe without evidence. There are different kinds of evidence and I believe that God will make sure everyone has enough to make a decision (even those who never heard His name will have opportunity to allow Him to write His law on their hearts or rebel against this...see Romans 2:14-17). Nor do I believe anyone will be lost because of true ignorance (God knows the heart. I don't). I don't believe anyone who is innocent will suffer. Only God knows who is truly innocent and who is truly guilty.

I do believe that everyone who will be lost will be lost because of rebellion and willful rejection (again, whether they heard His name or not). IMHO, people will be lost because they would continue to sin and thus cause suffering if allowed to live (my interpretation). In other words, those who will be lost would knowingly choose sin because this is what they prefer to God's will...or would do so if given the opportunity. Again, God knows the heart, I don't.

Honestly, I have no idea how long it will take to burn up the wicked or how much pain if any that they will feel. The Bible says that they will be like straw (some translations say chaff) and we're not talking about normal fire but an Eternal and unquenchable fire. I imagine it will be pretty instantaneous, but I've heard people suggest that the Hitler's of the world will burn longer and suffer a lot more but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. I don't make any claims to know all the details and although I can debate the eternal burning part using scripture, I freely admit that some of the details I mention above is simply my belief based on what the Bible does say about Hell, God's character, and what the Bible says about how Jesus treated people and the price He paid for our redemption.

I imagine the worst part of it all will be seeing the return of the Lord and knowing that time was up...

To sum it all up, I believe that God is love and He is not out to cause suffering but to put an end to it. He seeks to put an end to it so that their can be a new beginning and a future without sin. I personally can't wait!

Correct me if I am wrong Mojo, but I would have thought that you belonged to the Protestant faith? If so, that does'nt sound like a typical or conservative Protestant response.

Dolphan7
06-12-2009, 11:28 AM
Let me put this in human terms... Say a parent demands that their child act a certain way, or that it abstain from certain activities. Now say this child continually disobeys the parent. Would it ever be appropriate or could it ever be considered a loving act for the parent to then lock the child in their basement, chain them to the highbeams, and whip them with a scorching hot chain for the rest of their lives as punishment for their disobedience?If I were to look for examples of a loving God, I wouldn't look at what he will do to those who reject him.

Personally I would look at His love for us by what He did for us to "avoid" such a punishment - giving His own Son to die for our sins!

Welcome back to FH Skape. :up:

Dolphan7
06-12-2009, 11:37 AM
There is a simple explanation for all of this: the Bible was written by troubled individuals who found comfort by inventing a God that would "forgive" sins they felt they were committing. I never personally understood the need God (as creator of the universe, master of all things in existence, etc...) would have for human frailties such as jealousy, anger, the need to be worshipped, etc....

I have always been troubled by this. sort of thing. I was raised in a christian environment and often times felt I was the only sane person at the christian church I was forced to attend. I have wanted to get the bible references together that defy simple logic, but I only budget about 10 or 15 minutes per day for this site and spend most of that looking at Dolphins stuff (go figure).

Bottom line is religion was invented so humans could have comfort in something have no control over. The rules were set based in part on this. You don't have to stock shelves at the Walmart to figure that one out.

Of course this is all just my opinion, but well justified I think in light of how simple and predictable our species behaves when in fear and in need of comfort. Debating religion is useless because it is clearly not a perfect solution (as one would expect from a perfect God). It boils down to having faith. But this thread was created because yet another person has realized the christian God doesn't quite pass the "smell" test.I have heard this many times, that the bible was invented or made up by men for a wide range of reasons.

I find it fascinating though that they would invoke eternal punishment in their doctrine.

In fact the Judeo/christian/islamic faiths (who all share the same God for the most part) are the only ones that have this doctrine.

One would think that if one was going to create their own religion, it would be one that wouldn't be so harsh on those who reject it.

One of the first things thrown out is the doctrine of eternal hell when one starts their own religion. We see this in Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, 7th Day Adventism, Christian Science......

Just me thinking out loud here.

emeraldfin
06-12-2009, 11:52 AM
I have heard this many times, that the bible was invented or made up by men for a wide range of reasons.

I find it fascinating though that they would invoke eternal punishment in their doctrine.

In fact the Judeo/christian/islamic faiths (who all share the same God for the most part) are the only ones that have this doctrine.

One would think that if one was going to create their own religion, it would be one that wouldn't be so harsh on those who reject it.

One of the first things thrown out is the doctrine of eternal hell when one starts their own religion. We see this in Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, 7th Day Adventism, Christian Science......

Just me thinking out loud here.

Thats actually a good point. Like why would troubled individuals come up with the idea of eternal damnation if they are looking for a cop out for the sins they have committed or to excuse what they wish to do?

Does'nt make sense to me either.

Dolphan7
06-12-2009, 11:53 AM
Thats actually a good point. Like why would troubled individuals come up with the idea of eternal damnation if they are looking for a cop out for the sins they have committed or to excuse what they wish to do?

Does'nt make sense to me.Exactly my point. Thank you!

ih8brady
06-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Thats actually a good point. Like why would troubled individuals come up with the idea of eternal damnation if they are looking for a cop out for the sins they have committed or to excuse what they wish to do?

Does'nt make sense to me either.


Are you kidding me? You don't think the people who form societies don't use fear or false claims of unworthiness to get people to follow them? If you're selling a confidence trick, inventing a problem or crisis or defectiveness works far better than false flattery. The people who invented religions as well as politicians do this.

Dolphan7
06-12-2009, 01:59 PM
Are you kidding me? You don't think the people who form societies don't use fear or false claims of unworthiness to get people to follow them? If you're selling a confidence trick, inventing a problem or crisis or defectiveness works far better than false flattery. The people who invented religions as well as politicians do this.You're missing the point. Spreading a belief or religion by using fear is one thing, and certainly has been done throughout history, but to create a religion for your own peace of mind, and to create in such a way that you would invoke such eternal damnation for not following it, is a totally different animal. I am probably not explaining it well, but there is a difference I am trying to point out here.

HansMojo
06-12-2009, 02:09 PM
Correct me if I am wrong Mojo, but I would have thought that you belonged to the Protestant faith? If so, that does'nt sound like a typical or conservative Protestant response.
Hey emeraldfin. It's definitely not a typical Protestant response, though it seems to be a view that is becoming more widespread than in the past. I attend a Seventh-day Adventist church which is a Protestant Christian denomination.

Adventists are viewed by many to be a cult primarily because of our views on Hell (real, but not eternal torture), the state of the dead (when you die you are simply dead...not in Heaven or Hell. At the 2nd Coming the Righteous will be resurrected and return to Heaven with the Lord, the wicked will be destroyed), the Old Testament (still completely relevant, though only understood with the New Testament) and the Sabbath (we rest from our work/attend religious services on Saturday as the Sabbath because the OT identifies the 7th day as a permanent and holy memorial of God's creation and also because this is what Jesus did).

Though officially most Protestant groups say we are not quite a cult but rather are well intentioned and simply misled on several key issues a lot of individual Protestants definitely view us as a cult. :)

HansMojo
06-12-2009, 02:29 PM
I have heard this many times, that the bible was invented or made up by men for a wide range of reasons.

I find it fascinating though that they would invoke eternal punishment in their doctrine.

In fact the Judeo/christian/islamic faiths (who all share the same God for the most part) are the only ones that have this doctrine.

One would think that if one was going to create their own religion, it would be one that wouldn't be so harsh on those who reject it.

One of the first things thrown out is the doctrine of eternal hell when one starts their own religion. We see this in Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, 7th Day Adventism, Christian Science......

Just me thinking out loud here.
Adventists don't feel we have started a new religion, but are simply a continuation of the Protestant Reformation that started with Luther so long ago. I have no doubt that I (and all Adventists) have a lot to learn and that the reformation continues until the 2nd Coming. Fortunately, God isn't judging us based on our theological test scores. :)

Dolphan7
06-12-2009, 02:37 PM
Hans,

We can (and have) spend a lot of time debating back and forth on the various disagreements and at the end of the day agree to disagree. I would much rather spend our time in this forum celebrating the 99% we agree on, then clutter up the board with the 1% we don't.

Amen?

SpurzN703
06-12-2009, 02:51 PM
Are you kidding me? You don't think the people who form societies don't use fear or false claims of unworthiness to get people to follow them? If you're selling a confidence trick, inventing a problem or crisis or defectiveness works far better than false flattery. The people who invented religions as well as politicians do this.

Exactly. If you're told that killing someone gets you an automatic ticket into hell for eternity, a sensible person wouldn't kill. Adultery, stealing, lying, all that sort of thing. If you do these things, you will suffer for eternity.

It just sounds like an ancient rulebook to me. Not saying it doesn't exist or that it's false, but that is the impression I get.

SpurzN703
06-12-2009, 02:53 PM
You're missing the point. Spreading a belief or religion by using fear is one thing, and certainly has been done throughout history, but to create a religion for your own peace of mind, and to create in such a way that you would invoke such eternal damnation for not following it, is a totally different animal. I am probably not explaining it well, but there is a difference I am trying to point out here.

And what I'm talking about isn't even really about religion. I'm not religious but I've read and been told that killing someone (or another heinous act) puts you in hell for eternity once you're dead.

To me, that's a scary yet effective (if you believe it) way to try and keep the peace.

emeraldfin
06-12-2009, 03:17 PM
Are you kidding me? You don't think the people who form societies don't use fear or false claims of unworthiness to get people to follow them? If you're selling a confidence trick, inventing a problem or crisis or defectiveness works far better than false flattery. The people who invented religions as well as politicians do this.

Think your missing the point that was been made dude. The original point made was that individuals forged the Bible to justify their actions or to excuse their future actions. So why would creating hell and eternal damnation for immoral actions be considered a "motivation" to attract people.

I mean, at that time would you join a religion that said if you stepped out of line you will rot in hell for ever? If the guys who wrote the Bible wanted people to excuse immoral actions why would they come up with the concept of hell?

It makes no sense from a psycholoigical standpoint because when we do something wrong we will do everything we can to justify it and not feel guilty. So why come up with a lifetime of pain and suffering as the result for immoral actions?

HansMojo
06-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Hans,

We can (and have) spend a lot of time debating back and forth on the various disagreements and at the end of the day agree to disagree. I would much rather spend our time in this forum celebrating the 99% we agree on, then clutter up the board with the 1% we don't.

Amen?
We do agree on the big picture stuff for the most part. I would say we've probably taught each other a lot over the years. :hi5:

emeraldfin
06-12-2009, 03:29 PM
Hey emeraldfin. It's definitely not a typical Protestant response, though it seems to be a view that is becoming more widespread than in the past. I attend a Seventh-day Adventist church which is a Protestant Christian denomination.

Adventists are viewed by many to be a cult primarily because of our views on Hell (real, but not eternal torture), the state of the dead (when you die you are simply dead...not in Heaven or Hell. At the 2nd Coming the Righteous will be resurrected and return to Heaven with the Lord, the wicked will be destroyed), the Old Testament (still completely relevant, though only understood with the New Testament) and the Sabbath (we rest from our work/attend religious services on Saturday as the Sabbath because the OT identifies the 7th day as a permanent and holy memorial of God's creation and also because this is what Jesus did).

Though officially most Protestant groups say we are not quite a cult but rather are well intentioned and simply misled on several key issues a lot of individual Protestants definitely view us as a cult. :)

Not too familiar with the Seventh Day Adventists, so thanks for the quick summary. But one question, if there is no Heaven or Hell, then where do dead souls go until the time of the 2nd Coming?

SpurzN703
06-12-2009, 03:42 PM
Think your missing the point that was been made dude. The original point made was that individuals forged the Bible to justify their actions or to excuse their future actions. So why would creating hell and eternal damnation for immoral actions be considered a "motivation" to attract people.

I mean, at that time would you join a religion that said if you stepped out of line you will rot in hell for ever? If the guys who wrote the Bible wanted people to excuse immoral actions why would they come up with the concept of hell?

It makes no sense from a psycholoigical standpoint because when we do something wrong we will do everything we can to justify it and not feel guilty. So why come up with a lifetime of pain and suffering as the result for immoral actions?

Attracting people to religion can be viewed as when a religion states that if you have faith in kind and believe in/love him, you will forever be a part of his kingdom for all eternity.

So if you're good and follow what God says (in words, preachers, etc..), you'll be rewarded.

ih8brady
06-12-2009, 03:43 PM
Think your missing the point that was been made dude. The original point made was that individuals forged the Bible to justify their actions or to excuse their future actions. So why would creating hell and eternal damnation for immoral actions be considered a "motivation" to attract people.

I mean, at that time would you join a religion that said if you stepped out of line you will rot in hell for ever? If the guys who wrote the Bible wanted people to excuse immoral actions why would they come up with the concept of hell?

It makes no sense from a psycholoigical standpoint because when we do something wrong we will do everything we can to justify it and not feel guilty. So why come up with a lifetime of pain and suffering as the result for immoral actions?

You and D7 raised basically the same point, although at least D7 concedes people(be they religious or not) can use fear and threats for political, social control.


Easy, if you want to knavishly convert people (to a religion, a product, a government) you need to present a danger. Bigger is nearly always better. Tell them that your neighboring country will invade if you don't or that someone's life is in danger without a product or a god/gods will harm them if they do not take a particular action. So yes, grandiose is an improvement and one must convince people there's a problem. Are you aware of Pascal's wager? It's a logical fallacy that centers behind the psychological fear of "just in case" spiritual insurance. This tactic relies on that. Kind of like that line/sales pitch "Can you really put a price on(_____)?" You are also under the assumption that following the Bible leads to high morality.

Scientology is an example. They start by telling people that they are sick and miserable. They are so because of thetons, souls of ancient aliens trapped inside them. Luckily for them(*sarcasm*), they can be quelled if they and their bank accounts join the Church.


Now if you're being honest, you and I both agree that Scientology is not credible. Yet, Scientology starts with the premise of anguish and innate wrongness and suffering for those who do not join Hubbard's path to salvation. The maxim fails here, ergo is not proof of anything.

HansMojo
06-12-2009, 04:17 PM
Not too familiar with the Seventh Day Adventists, so thanks for the quick summary. But one question, if there is no Heaven or Hell, then where do dead souls go until the time of the 2nd Coming?
Great question. I do believe in both Heaven and Hell, just not that souls go to either immediately at death. Heaven is where God is now (wherever that is...). Hell is nowhere yet since it is something that occurs after the Second Coming IMHO. As Peter says:


But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 (http://bible.cc/2_peter/3-12.htm) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 (http://bible.cc/2_peter/3-13.htm) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:12-13)

I do not believe that the human soul is immortal (yet):


Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-52.htm) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-53.htm) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-54.htm) But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-55.htm) “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-56.htm) The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-57.htm) but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 (http://bible.cc/1_timothy/6-16.htm) who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (1 Timothy 6:15, 16)

Nor do I believe that we have a soul living within our body that goes somewhere when we die. According to Genesis 2:7, it takes a body, plus the breath of life to equal a living soul.


And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.In other words, we became a living soul. We did not have a living soul put within us according to this passage.

When we die, we are simply dead. We know nothing, we experience nothing. Jesus describes it as being asleep when referring to Lazarus. There are texts in both the OT and NT that support this. An interesting one I just ran across is:


So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12

So yeah, that is another reason we're thought of as a cult by some. We don't believe anything happens to the dead (they rest in peace) until the Second Coming. I can give you a much more complete set of texts on the topic if you are interested. For now though I have to mow the lawn and run some errands. I'll be back later today. We leave for Orlando on Sunday and I have much to do to get ready.

Mickey, here I come!!! :woot:

Dolphan7
06-12-2009, 04:24 PM
You and D7 raised basically the same point, although at least D7 concedes people(be they religious or not) can use fear and threats for political, social control.


Easy, if you want to knavishly convert people (to a religion, a product, a government) you need to present a danger. Bigger is nearly always better. Tell them that your neighboring country will invade if you don't or that someone's life is in danger without a product or a god/gods will harm them if they do not take a particular action. So yes, grandiose is an improvement and one must convince people there's a problem. Are you aware of Pascal's wager? It's a logical fallacy that centers behind the psychological fear of "just in case" spiritual insurance. This tactic relies on that. Kind of like that line/sales pitch "Can you really put a price on(_____)?" You are also under the assumption that following the Bible leads to high morality.

Scientology is an example. They start by telling people that they are sick and miserable. They are so because of thetons, souls of ancient aliens trapped inside them. Luckily for them(*sarcasm*), they can be quelled if they and their bank accounts join the Church.


Now if you're being honest, you and I both agree that Scientology is not credible. Yet, Scientology starts with the premise of anguish and innate wrongness and suffering for those who do not join Hubbard's path to salvation. The maxim fails here, ergo is not proof of anything.I understood the point you are making, but can you understand the point we are making?

If you have the opportunity to create a religion with the understanding that you will be evangelizing for recruits, wouldn't it be much easier to get people to believe in something that doesn't result in eternal suffering in hell if they refuse it? Wouldn't it be better to make it so they feel all good and warm inside, able to deal with life's pressures....(as is the accusation toward religion in general), with no real consequences to your actions if you are wrong? Christianity is based on belief and faith (trust), not force. Based on that wouldn't it be easier to get people to believe by taking away eternal suffering in hell, rather than adding it?

The original post in this thread rejects christianity based on the entire doctrine of hell. Proof positive right there. And there are many who reject christianity for the exact same reason, past present and future. You think these mythical creators of the bible wouldn't have realized this?

It only makes sense if hell were indeed true. It makes no sense otherwise.

SoJoMike
06-12-2009, 07:44 PM
Yeah, I understand all your points....but I wouldn't be so quick to diminish human's capacity for self loathing so much so that eternal damnation is the price for sin. I mean people are hard on themselves for messing up...some more than others. And those "some" wrote a series of books, etc... It is also easy to understand (and see present day) christians loathing of those who sin, so why not condemn them to eternal pain (of course they just "hate the sin" but we aren't all falling for that one).

All this still doesn't answer the need God has for anger, jealousy and narcisicism. Sounds like the weakness of man to me.

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 02:33 AM
There is a simple explanation for all of this: the Bible was written by troubled individuals who found comfort by inventing a God that would "forgive" sins they felt they were committing. I never personally understood the need God (as creator of the universe, master of all things in existence, etc...) would have for human frailties such as jealousy, anger, the need to be worshipped, etc....

I have always been troubled by this. sort of thing. I was raised in a christian environment and often times felt I was the only sane person at the christian church I was forced to attend. I have wanted to get the bible references together that defy simple logic, but I only budget about 10 or 15 minutes per day for this site and spend most of that looking at Dolphins stuff (go figure).

Bottom line is religion was invented so humans could have comfort in something have no control over. The rules were set based in part on this. You don't have to stock shelves at the Walmart to figure that one out.

Of course this is all just my opinion, but well justified I think in light of how simple and predictable our species behaves when in fear and in need of comfort. Debating religion is useless because it is clearly not a perfect solution (as one would expect from a perfect God). It boils down to having faith. But this thread was created because yet another person has realized the christian God doesn't quite pass the "smell" test.

I'm curious to know which Christian church you were forced to attend and if your family still attends or not. Please share. If that is too personal, then I apologize for prying, but I'm very curious.

For me, the question of whether or not Christianity was invented by humans for comfort or to have power over others or whatever is answered in a few different ways, but primarily by my own Christian experience (which is obviously a personal thing). From answered prayers to miracles witnessed, these experiences have helped to confirm my faith. I've seen the good that my faith has done in my own life and for my family (especially my marriage). I have seen the good that it has done for others. I feel the presence of God at times, especially when in prayer or in Bible study. And the Bible makes sense to me. It helps me and has blessed me in many ways. Within its pages I have found a loving God who has a plan for my life both now and throughout eternity. I both serve and worship this God because I genuinely love and revere Him. He is my Father and I am His son. No one has to coerce or scare me into maintaining this relationship. I would not give it up for all the riches in the world.

I have also encountered things that I do not speak openly about but which were very real and occurred in the presence of others. Suffice to say, I do believe in demons and they are not our friends.

To me, my faith and my religion is very real and very beautiful. But yeah, these things are all personal and unless you have the same experiences, mine are not going to be very convincing to you or anyone else. For me, it's more than enough. For me.

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 03:32 AM
Yeah, I understand all your points....but I wouldn't be so quick to diminish human's capacity for self loathing so much so that eternal damnation is the price for sin. I mean people are hard on themselves for messing up...some more than others. And those "some" wrote a series of books, etc... It is also easy to understand (and see present day) christians loathing of those who sin, so why not condemn them to eternal pain (of course they just "hate the sin" but we aren't all falling for that one).

All this still doesn't answer the need God has for anger, jealousy and narcisicism. Sounds like the weakness of man to me.

Anger
IMHO, God is angry when we do things that hurt ourselves and/or others (all sin leads to or at least can lead to suffering in some form). He loves us, we are His children and He doesn't want us to bring suffering upon ourselves or others.

The other day, my 7 year old daughter was playing very rough with my 4 year old nephew and she hurt him pretty bad. She basically jumped on him while he was laying on the ground and landed on his head. She didn't mean to land on his head or even to hurt him, but it was my daughters fault, and it was completely unacceptable (and avoidable). It broke my heart to see my nephew crying in pain and I was angry with my daughter for hurting him...but I still love(d) her. I disciplined her to teach her a lesson and hopefully prevent it from happening again. My nephew was comforted by my response. He felt cared about and that the issue had been dealt with. My daughter appears to have learned her lesson and will likely never do that again.

Yes, I do believe that God gets angry, but I do not believe He loses control of Himself. He gets angry because He cares. Here is an article on the topic that you might find interesting. I did anyway:
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Does%20God%20get%20angry.htm

Jealousy
Yes, according to the Bible, God is a jealous God and He is also presented as the only God. According to scripture, He is the source of life as well as our Redeemer. To reject Him is to reject life. God doesn't want us to reject life. He is jealous for our affections because He cares.

What would you think of a husband who didn't care if his wife went out after other men? I know i would think that the husband must not care all that much about his wife. IMHO, jealousy is not a negative thing or a sign of weakness. It can become a negative thing depending on how it is handled or if it is unreasonable or inappropriate. I appreciate the idea that God is jealous of our affection. If He wasn't, I would think He didn't care.

Narcissism
If what the Bible says about God is true...that He is the one and only God, that He created us and everything else in the universe, that He actually truly loves us and has our best interests in mind to the point that He subjected Himself to the cross to redeem us, well then He is definitely not narcissistic...IMHO.

I don't think that anger and jealousy are points of weakness. They can lead to problems depending on how we handle our anger and jealousy, but i don't think God has a problem handling His emotions and for that I am grateful. :whew!:

SkapePhin
06-13-2009, 03:33 AM
I understand your point. However, I personally don't think God asks anyone to believe without evidence. There are different kinds of evidence and I believe that God will make sure everyone has enough to make a decision (even those who never heard His name will have opportunity to allow Him to write His law on their hearts or rebel against this...see Romans 2:14-17). Nor do I believe anyone will be lost because of true ignorance (God knows the heart. I don't). I don't believe anyone who is innocent will suffer. Only God knows who is truly innocent and who is truly guilty.

I do believe that everyone who will be lost will be lost because of rebellion and willful rejection (again, whether they heard His name or not). IMHO, people will be lost because they would continue to sin and thus cause suffering if allowed to live (my interpretation). In other words, those who will be lost would knowingly choose sin because this is what they prefer to God's will...or would do so if given the opportunity. Again, God knows the heart, I don't.

Honestly, I have no idea how long it will take to burn up the wicked or how much pain if any that they will feel. The Bible says that they will be like straw (some translations say chaff) and we're not talking about normal fire but an Eternal and unquenchable fire. I imagine it will be pretty instantaneous, but I've heard people suggest that the Hitler's of the world will burn longer and suffer a lot more but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. I don't make any claims to know all the details and although I can debate the eternal burning part using scripture, I freely admit that some of the details I mention above is simply my belief based on what the Bible does say about Hell, God's character, and what the Bible says about how Jesus treated people and the price He paid for our redemption.

I imagine the worst part of it all will be seeing the return of the Lord and knowing that time was up...

To sum it all up, I believe that God is love and He is not out to cause suffering but to put an end to it. He seeks to put an end to it so that their can be a new beginning and a future without sin. I personally can't wait!

Hans, there is no evidence, except for that which people wish to validate in their own minds. There is no verifiable evidence to prove or disprove the existence of a being we cannot observe with any of our senses. To me, that would seem to be a pretty crummy game that God would be playing with humanity.

"BELIEVE IN ME, FOLLOW ME, however, I will remain hidden from all your senses and you will simply have to take a word of an ancient book written by 60 different strangers over a span of hundreds of years in the desert, and maybe an occasional voice in your head which sounds like it is coming from somewhere else, OR YOU WILL BE BANISHED TO HELL."

That is not enough evidence to follow someone. Why would he create us with senses to perceive the world, logic to make sense of it all, and remain completely hidden from us yet still demand our worship? Does that not seem like a twisted game to anyone else?

I still stand by my statement that if the creator of the universe were indeed loving, it would not ever allow such a place as hell to exist. You keep stating that hell is a place reserved for sinners, but this is not the case. EVERYONE sins. It is impossible not to. Many sins are a direct result of human nature and our natural inclination to breed, be violent, or lie if the situation is of a greater benefit to one's survival or the wellbeing of their families.

Of course, Christians claim to have an opt-out clause written into their Christian contract with God. They are permitted to slip occasionally, for no one can lead a perfectly sinless life, so long as they worship God and accept Jesus as their lord and savior.

So, hell is not only reserved for those who have committed the gravest sins. It is not merely for the murderers, rapists, and abusers. It is also for those who are just like an everyday Christian in their behavior and morality, only they do not bow before an absentee landlord...

If a God gave me logic, and with this logic I determine that I cannot believe in his existence for I cannot perceive it with the senses I was born with, how can he then punish me for using that "god-given" logic?

SkapePhin
06-13-2009, 03:38 AM
If I were to look for examples of a loving God, I wouldn't look at what he will do to those who reject him.

Personally I would look at His love for us by what He did for us to "avoid" such a punishment - giving His own Son to die for our sins!

Welcome back to FH Skape. :up:

Good seeing you again, D7. I past through your lovely state recently. Arizona is quite remarkable. Definately the most beautiful state I passed through on my way to California from Florida.

Anyway, If a parent loves one child because he does everything he asks of him, but throws the rebellious child to the gutter, I would say that isn't much of a parent... Certainly not "loving". What happened to unconditional love?

SkapePhin
06-13-2009, 03:56 AM
BTW, for everyone debating why a people would introduce the concept of hell into their Relligion, please remember that the Christian Hell was practically ripped off from Greek and Norse myths. In fact, the word "hell" actually comes from the Norse goddess "Hel" so as to make the transition from Pagan beliefs to Christianity easier for the Nordic people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being) And the word "Hades" was used throughout the Book of Revelation in reference to the underworld.

Religion was and is a form of social control. As such, it would make sense to install some sort of punishment system to try to instill as much order in society as possible. Hell is basically Jail on a cosmic level. But, jail doesn't really work in dissuading criminals, just as hell doesn't really work in dissuading sinners...

The reason people sin or commit crimes is a combination of both genetic psychological traits and environment. It is not merely a coincidence that the poor are most likely to commit violent crimes or theft. In their situation, the benefits outweigh the risk. The same can be said of many sins.

Religion isn't just invented out of thin air. It evolves. I know how much religious folk despise that word, but yes, religion evolves just like living organisms do. It assimilates bits and pieces from its predecesors, and in so doing, recruit some new members from the ashes of those former belief systems. Christianity is the best example of taking and cramming in pieces from old myths and beliefs. Christmas is basically one big exercise in plagiarism - from the three wise men, to the date of December 25th, to the Christmas Tree, to Santa Claus.

So why would people inclined to sin create the concept of Hell? The same reason they would create the concept of Heaven. It is a natural extension of the balance of the universe. The good and the bad. The yin and the yang. Our perception of good cannot exist without its counterpart. So, if good people go to heaven, where do bad people go? They MUST go to its antithesis. Through the years, the picture of hell got more colorful, taking many elements from the Greek underworld ruled by Hades. Dante probably gave Hell its most vivid description. Paintings from the Classical period did a good job with it too. All the images of demons and Satan as these horned, grotesque creatures... Of course, none of this is really in the Biblical text. I guess the closest it gets is in Revelation - which, was in itself, an allegory for the reign of Emperor Nero, not the end of the world.

SkapePhin
06-13-2009, 04:17 AM
Anger
IMHO, God is angry when we do things that hurt ourselves and/or others (all sin leads to or at least can lead to suffering in some form). He loves us, we are His children and He doesn't want us to bring suffering upon ourselves or others.

The other day, my 7 year old daughter was playing very rough with my 4 year old nephew and she hurt him pretty bad. She basically jumped on him while he was laying on the ground and landed on his head. She didn't mean to land on his head or even to hurt him, but it was my daughters fault, and it was completely unacceptable (and avoidable). It broke my heart to see my nephew crying in pain and I was angry with my daughter for hurting him...but I still love(d) her. I disciplined her to teach her a lesson and hopefully prevent it from happening again. My nephew was comforted by my response. He felt cared about and that the issue had been dealt with. My daughter appears to have learned her lesson and will likely never do that again.

Yes, I do believe that God gets angry, but I do not believe He loses control of Himself. He gets angry because He cares. Here is an article on the topic that you might find interesting. I did anyway:
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Does%20God%20get%20angry.htm

Jealousy
Yes, according to the Bible, God is a jealous God and He is also presented as the only God. According to scripture, He is the source of life as well as our Redeemer. To reject Him is to reject life. God doesn't want us to reject life. He is jealous for our affections because He cares.

What would you think of a husband who didn't care if his wife went out after other men? I know i would think that the husband must not care all that much about his wife. IMHO, jealousy is not a negative thing or a sign of weakness. It can become a negative thing depending on how it is handled or if it is unreasonable or inappropriate. I appreciate the idea that God is jealous of our affection. If He wasn't, I would think He didn't care.

Narcissism
If what the Bible says about God is true...that He is the one and only God, that He created us and everything else in the universe, that He actually truly loves us and has our best interests in mind to the point that He subjected Himself to the cross to redeem us, well then He is definitely not narcissistic...IMHO.

I don't think that anger and jealousy are points of weakness. They can lead to problems depending on how we handle our anger and jealousy, but i don't think God has a problem handling His emotions and for that I am grateful. :whew!:

I think getting angry to the point of drowning EVERY SINGLE LIVING CREATURE on the planet, innocent, and otherwise, is considered "losing control of one's emotions". What the heck did all those innocent Penguins in Antarctica do to deserve such a fate? And, of course, the millions of infants on the planet at that point in time... The God of the OT was a wrafthful being the likes of which can never be matched. He was on super PMS or something.

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 05:39 AM
Hans, there is no evidence, except for that which people wish to validate in their own minds. There is no verifiable evidence to prove or disprove the existence of a being we cannot observe with any of our senses. To me, that would seem to be a pretty crummy game that God would be playing with humanity.

"BELIEVE IN ME, FOLLOW ME, however, I will remain hidden from all your senses and you will simply have to take a word of an ancient book written by 60 different strangers over a span of hundreds of years in the desert, and maybe an occasional voice in your head which sounds like it is coming from somewhere else, OR YOU WILL BE BANISHED TO HELL."

That is not enough evidence to follow someone. Why would he create us with senses to perceive the world, logic to make sense of it all, and remain completely hidden from us yet still demand our worship? Does that not seem like a twisted game to anyone else?
:lol:, I understand, but I obviously view the world a lot differently than you do. To me, I experience God everyday and in lots of different ways. And it's not just answered prayers and miraculous signs (though I have had much experience with these things on many different occasions) but also in everyday things. For example, I ate the most amazing mango yesterday and I thanked God for creating such a wonderful thing that is both incredibly delicious and life sustaining at the same time. I know that to you it is simply a piece of fruit and a result of aeons of evolution, but to me it is a gift from a loving God who wants me to be healthy and delight in my food at the same time. As I looked at my wife this morning, I thanked God today for helping me find someone so beautiful and so amazing to share my life with. I understand that to you, love is in no way evidence of God, but to me it is. This afternoon I found a note that my daughter had written to me telling me how much she loved me and I thanked God for giving me the gift of children. I understand that to you the ability to procreate is not evidence of God, but to me, it is one of His most amazing gifts to us.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Fortunately, I believe God gives everyone enough evidence to believe and also that God has different ways of reaching different people. It's possible that God simply hasn't revealed Himself to you yet and that your time will come. INHO, it's also possible that He has but you weren't receptive to Him for whatever reason. Only God knows your heart and your specific situation.

I know you disagree, but I don't believe that I have to deny my senses or turn off logic to accept God, I simply have to open my eyes and I see His work which is all around me...as well as the results of sin in this world. Nor am I coerced into worshipping Him. I worship him because I believe He is the Creator of all things and yet He loved me enough to humble Himself to the point of the cross. I can't help but to worship Him because it is natural for me to do so because of how I perceive the Lord.



I still stand by my statement that if the creator of the universe were indeed loving, it would not ever allow such a place as hell to exist. You keep stating that hell is a place reserved for sinners, but this is not the case. EVERYONE sins. It is impossible not to. Many sins are a direct result of human nature and our natural inclination to breed, be violent, or lie if the situation is of a greater benefit to one's survival or the wellbeing of their families.

Of course, Christians claim to have an opt-out clause written into their Christian contract with God. They are permitted to slip occasionally, for no one can lead a perfectly sinless life, so long as they worship God and accept Jesus as their lord and savior.

So, hell is not only reserved for those who have committed the gravest sins. It is not merely for the murderers, rapists, and abusers. It is also for those who are just like an everyday Christian in their behavior and morality, only they do not bow before an absentee landlord...

If a God gave me logic, and with this logic I determine that I cannot believe in his existence for I cannot perceive it with the senses I was born with, how can he then punish me for using that "god-given" logic?

I don't believe God will punish anyone for using the logic that God gave them, but people will be lost basically for *willfully* choosing a life of sin in the place of God. This applies to those who reject Him (ignorance and rebelling are not the same thing IMHO) and even to some who profess Christ's name (Matthew 7:21-23). You view Hell as punishment, but I view it as a solution to the sin problem and thus an end to suffering in all forms.

IMHO, God is the source of life. To reject God would be like if my leg decided to tear itself off of my body and go off on its own. It wouldn't get very far...

Yes, we all sin. That's why, according to Scripture, we all need a Redeemer. We do currently have a sinful nature but we are not condemned by this law of sin in and of itself (because of something called Grace). We are condemned however if we embrace our sinful natures and refuse to be changed (which is what God wants to do...to fix us).

The problem with sin is that it brings suffering (or at least would lead to it if unchecked). God simply wants to put an end to all the suffering. To me, Hell is just a word that refers to the time and method God will use to put an end to suffering, permanently, by destroying those who would refuse to give up their sinful natures.

Maybe someday God will reveal Himself to you in a way that is undeniable to you. Maybe He already has but will do so many more times in your life and in many different ways.

Anyway, it's late. I hope that helps to further explain my understanding of the matter. For what it's worth...:lol:

Peace my friend.

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 06:11 AM
I think getting angry to the point of drowning EVERY SINGLE LIVING CREATURE on the planet, innocent, and otherwise, is considered "losing control of one's emotions". What the heck did all those innocent Penguins in Antarctica do to deserve such a fate? And, of course, the millions of infants on the planet at that point in time... The God of the OT was a wrafthful being the likes of which can never be matched. He was on super PMS or something.
:lol:

I know we've had this discussion before at length and I have to get to bed, but briefly, I don't think God destroyed the earth with the Great Flood out of anger (or I should say because He lost control of His anger), but it was actually redemptive in nature (believe it or not). Not redemptive for the wicked that were lost obviously, but for those who were saved (and possibly any innocents that were lost in the flood) as well as for the billions upon billions of people who have been born after the flood. Basically, man was at the point of such great wickedness that had God not rebooted the planet when He did, all would have been lost for the human race as a whole. The infants would have apparently grown up in the shadow of their parents and been no different. IMHO, God judged the world fairly and determined that the only way to save humanity was to basically start over...not from scratch, but from a handful of people who had not fallen into utter wickedness and were faithful to Him.

As for the infants/innocent, taking them while they were innocent may have actually been a way of saving them (just a theory, it's not spelled out in the Bible so take it for what its worth). The few decades we experience on this planet is inconsequential compared to the eternity that God wants to give us. I don't believe God condemns infants and though they may not have much of a life on this planet because of the sins of their parents or others (not just referring to those who died as infants during the flood), it is quite possible that they will be "compensated" for their lost time with an eternity of years in Paradise.

GoonBoss
06-13-2009, 06:48 AM
It all comes down to faith, in the end, doesn't it?

Dolphin39
06-13-2009, 10:52 AM
God condems no one; we each accept or reject his gift of eternal salvation (Jesus Christ).

SoJoMike
06-13-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm curious to know which Christian church you were forced to attend and if your family still attends or not. Please share. If that is too personal, then I apologize for prying, but I'm very curious.

For me, the question of whether or not Christianity was invented by humans for comfort or to have power over others or whatever is answered in a few different ways, but primarily by my own Christian experience (which is obviously a personal thing). From answered prayers to miracles witnessed, these experiences have helped to confirm my faith. I've seen the good that my faith has done in my own life and for my family (especially my marriage). I have seen the good that it has done for others. I feel the presence of God at times, especially when in prayer or in Bible study. And the Bible makes sense to me. It helps me and has blessed me in many ways. Within its pages I have found a loving God who has a plan for my life both now and throughout eternity. I both serve and worship this God because I genuinely love and revere Him. He is my Father and I am His son. No one has to coerce or scare me into maintaining this relationship. I would not give it up for all the riches in the world.

I have also encountered things that I do not speak openly about but which were very real and occurred in the presence of others. Suffice to say, I do believe in demons and they are not our friends.

To me, my faith and my religion is very real and very beautiful. But yeah, these things are all personal and unless you have the same experiences, mine are not going to be very convincing to you or anyone else. For me, it's more than enough. For me.

It was a Wesleyan church, so christian/protestant (uptight).

I think it is great that you can take what christianity provides and allow it to work the magic it has in your life. I am genuinely happy for those who can do this AS LONG AS they don't insist that christian teachings and leanings are the only way to believe as an alternative to eternal damnation.

I am troubled by the dark side of religion, any religion, and I believe the dark side only exists to fulfill man's need for control. Without fear of consequences, there is no control. However, I believe this basic philosophy can be applied in life to coexist with others without needing to enforce a blow by blow account of a set of (incomplete and edited) books that were written by people who owe us nothing, much less honesty.

I am OK with not "knowing". I am comfortable with the idea that God exists in some form. That is all the detail I need to be content. From there I use intuition because in the end, that is all I (we) really have. The more pure our intuition remains, the closer to the truth we are. That's why I refuse to spoil that purity with what others believe. I believe it is impossible that we as humans know the details of God, at least at the level the Bible and its presenters put forth.

SoJoMike
06-13-2009, 12:39 PM
It all comes down to faith, in the end, doesn't it?

Absolutely. One size does not fit all.

SoJoMike
06-13-2009, 12:52 PM
God condems no one; we each accept or reject his gift of eternal salvation (Jesus Christ).

This is not truly a choice if you believe that no one wants to be condemned. This is only a choice made by force: you must choose A (christian salvation) or B (condemnation), but not neither (C), which would also be a choice were God not malevolent. So it turns into no choice to make with the assumption that no one wants eternal damnation.

This is like a salesman who tells you you'd have to be stupid not purchase this item. Well I don't want to purchase it, I must be stupid. The only choices are purchasing the item or being stupid.

SkapePhin
06-13-2009, 01:21 PM
:lol:

I know we've had this discussion before at length and I have to get to bed, but briefly, I don't think God destroyed the earth with the Great Flood out of anger, but it was actually redemptive in nature (believe it or not). Not redemptive for the wicked that were lost obviously, but for those who were saved (and possibly any innocents that were lost in the flood) as well as for the billions upon billions of people who have been born after the flood. Basically, man was at the point of such great wickedness that had God not rebooted the planet when He did, all would have been lost for the human race as a whole. The infants would have apparently grown up in the shadow of their parents and been no different. IMHO, God judged the world fairly and determined that the only way to save humanity was to basically start over...not from scratch, but from a handful of people who had not fallen into utter wickedness and were faithful to Him.

As for the infants/innocent, taking them while they were innocent may have actually been a way of saving them (just a theory, it's not spelled out in the Bible so take it for what its worth). The few decades we experience on this planet is inconsequential compared to the eternity that God wants to give us. I don't believe God condemns infants and though they may not have much of a life on this planet because of the sins of their parents or others (not just referring to those who died as infants during the flood), it is quite possible that they will be "compensated" for their lost time with an eternity of years in Paradise.

What you just described is basically an abortion on a global level. Many of these aborted children would have been born into a situation where the wickedness and the sin around them would have corrupted them. Being terminated in the womb is actually a blessing, as they then must go immediately enter a state of salvation, skipping the madness on Earth.

So then, why is God permitted to commit an abortion, a do-over, with the souls of every living being on the planet, while he forbids us to do the same for our young? Why does he live outside the rules? Is that not hypocritical? God, as described in the OT, is guilty of almost every sin. Even in the NT, unless if you believe impregnating a 13 year old virgin girl without her consent is a good way to go about things...

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 02:57 PM
It all comes down to faith, in the end, doesn't it?
Yes! But not "blind" faith IMHO. :)

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 03:16 PM
It was a Wesleyan church, so christian/protestant (uptight).

I think it is great that you can take what christianity provides and allow it to work the magic it has in your life. I am genuinely happy for those who can do this AS LONG AS they don't insist that christian teachings and leanings are the only way to believe as an alternative to eternal damnation.

I am troubled by the dark side of religion, any religion, and I believe the dark side only exists to fulfill man's need for control. Without fear of consequences, there is no control. However, I believe this basic philosophy can be applied in life to coexist with others without needing to enforce a blow by blow account of a set of (incomplete and edited) books that were written by people who owe us nothing, much less honesty.

I am OK with not "knowing". I am comfortable with the idea that God exists in some form. That is all the detail I need to be content. From there I use intuition because in the end, that is all I (we) really have. The more pure our intuition remains, the closer to the truth we are. That's why I refuse to spoil that purity with what others believe. I believe it is impossible that we as humans know the details of God, at least at the level the Bible and its presenters put forth.
I appreciate that. It would be impossible to know the details of God at the level the Bible puts forth, unless God actually did reveal Himself/inspire the Bible writers. If you don't believe this is the case, then the contents of the Book won't mean much to you at all.

Even though I do believe the Bible to be inspired and accept the Bible to be truth, I also recognize that you can't empty the ocean into a bucket. I know that I am personally just scratching the surface and will continue to learn as I go through life and some of the details of my understanding will undoubtedly change over time...hopefully becoming closer to the actual truth of the matter.

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 04:09 PM
This is not truly a choice if you believe that no one wants to be condemned. This is only a choice made by force: you must choose A (christian salvation) or B (condemnation), but not neither (C), which would also be a choice were God not malevolent. So it turns into no choice to make with the assumption that no one wants eternal damnation.

This is like a salesman who tells you you'd have to be stupid not purchase this item. Well I don't want to purchase it, I must be stupid. The only choices are purchasing the item or being stupid.
Though Dolphin39 and I don't agree on the details of Hell (eternal torment), we do agree on the idea that it is our choice in the end.

IMHO...the choice is, a.) Do I want this life and nothing more or b.) Do I want this life plus the future life God that God wants to give us. Since I don't believe in eternal torment it's of really just a choice between the status quo and something more.

That was the quick answer. Now for the longer answer. To me it is a choice because God gives us this life to live, whatever it may bring, and offers us something more if we choose to take Him up on His offer. We are allowed to live this life however we see fit. It is up to us. It is our choice. If we willfully choose to reject God and His "way" (to me ignorance is not the same as rebellion), then this life is all we are given. Another way of saying it is if we willfully choose a life of sin over God or prefer sin to God's way (which is love) and so refuse God, then this life is all He offers us. My understanding of why this is is simply because God's plan is to put an end to sin and spend the rest of Eternity with us. If we aren't willing to live with God, without sin (impossible for us now IMHO since we have a sinful nature), then God isn't willing to continue our life after this one is over because to do so would be to allow sin to continue. He is the source of life, and so life is His to give or not. But He does give us this life to decide if we want more or not.

If on the other hand we cooperate with God (and yes, IMHO even people who never heard the name of Jesus can cooperate with God if they allow Him to write His law on their hearts - see Romans 2:14-17...only God knows the heart) then He offers us Eternal life. And yes, I do believe that this gift is made possible only because of what Jesus Christ accomplished here on Earth. I also believe that His is the only name by which we can be saved. I do believe that there is only one God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). I just think God has a provision for ignorance and this is where Romans 2 comes in.

The choice, IMHO, is simply to decide if you want more than what this life offers or not and the price we must be willing to pay is to give up our sins and live with God for all of eternity. Since I love God and hate my sinful nature (I really do) then that is a pretty cheap price for me, in fact...it is a gift. But I've been converted. Before my conversion experience I had to decide that I wanted to try God out. I had to push myself to go to church didn't really want to put away my sins. There was a price to pay and it felt like it. Blessedly, it is now a joy for me and I can't see living my life any other way and I long for God to restore me to a perfect nature so that I no longer have to struggle with sin. And lo, sin doth sucketh (Hans 14:12) :lol:

Anyway, I'm gonna be late for Church so I gotta run, peace.

HansMojo
06-13-2009, 04:33 PM
What you just described is basically an abortion on a global level. Many of these aborted children would have been born into a situation where the wickedness and the sin around them would have corrupted them. Being terminated in the womb is actually a blessing, as they then must go immediately enter a state of salvation, skipping the madness on Earth.

So then, why is God permitted to commit an abortion, a do-over, with the souls of every living being on the planet, while he forbids us to do the same for our young? Why does he live outside the rules? Is that not hypocritical? God, as described in the OT, is guilty of almost every sin. Even in the NT, unless if you believe impregnating a 13 year old virgin girl without her consent is a good way to go about things...
I really am going to be late for Church now (darn you Skape :lol:) but I want to just give a quick response.

God has always reserved the right to render judgment as well as execute that judgment as He sees fit. That is part of the rules, so He is not operating outside of them when He does. We are not given that same privilege nor should we be IMHO since we are not equipped to do so. Judgment becomes necessary from time to time because of the wrong decisions we make.

Everything is Gods including life itself and further, He is the only one who can truly judge fairly and righteously. He is the only one that can restore the life He takes. He is the only one that can see the big picture.

To me, I can reconcile that everything God has done has been redemptive in nature. It has been for the purpose of saving as many souls as is possible. I can honestly see the love in the tough decisions God has made and I'm thankful that we have a loving God who has our best interests in mind. I am comforted by the verses that describe God's utter sorrow in having to execute judgment on His wayward children who bring so much suffering to themselves and to others. I am very thankful that He cares.

SoJoMike
06-14-2009, 08:37 AM
I appreciate that. It would be impossible to know the details of God at the level the Bible puts forth, unless God actually did reveal Himself/inspire the Bible writers. If you don't believe this is the case, then the contents of the Book won't mean much to you at all.

Even though I do believe the Bible to be inspired and accept the Bible to be truth, I also recognize that you can't empty the ocean into a bucket. I know that I am personally just scratching the surface and will continue to learn as I go through life and some of the details of my understanding will undoubtedly change over time...hopefully becoming closer to the actual truth of the matter.

Yeah, I don't believe the bible was inspired anymore so than this post, because who were these people anyway??? God speaks to me, revealing itself to me all the time. So I can publish "The Holy Bible: Part Deux" purporting my beliefs and that would make it automatically valid? Or do I need to grew a long white beard and convert my wardrobe to a robes and sandals motif first? Probably not, but I have a feeling that if I published a work that condemned people who were openly gay or indulged in anything except food, I'd gather quite a following.

Anyways, this has ended up as I thought it would. Congratulations on your perception that the christian God is working miracles in your life.

Gonzo
06-14-2009, 04:58 PM
Just to throw a wrench into the discussion, here is an interesting article that includes the Judaic view of hell:


When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a "judgment and accounting" of its earthly life.9 (javascript:doFootnote('9a282508');) But the Heavenly Court only does the "accounting" part; the "judgment" part--that only the soul itself can do.10 (javascript:doFootnote('10a282508');) Only the soul can pass judgment on itself--only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul's experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the "Garden of Eden"--i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom ("Gehenna" or "Purgatory").


The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom--the soul's pain in facing the truth of its life--cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and "bask in the Divine radiance" emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.
Quite a bit more discussion on it here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

I'd like to get a Jewish member's take on this topic.

SpurzN703
06-14-2009, 08:45 PM
A co-worker of mine, who is Episcopalian, said he could never get tattoos b/c he wouldn't be able to be buried in hallowed ground. This guy also gives up stuff for lent and does all of these other religious "things" throughout the year.

Since I have tattoos and don't give up anything for lent, it looks like I'm screwed.

Right?

HansMojo
06-14-2009, 09:57 PM
Yeah, I don't believe the bible was inspired anymore so than this post, because who were these people anyway??? God speaks to me, revealing itself to me all the time. So I can publish "The Holy Bible: Part Deux" purporting my beliefs and that would make it automatically valid? Or do I need to grew a long white beard and convert my wardrobe to a robes and sandals motif first? Probably not, but I have a feeling that if I published a work that condemned people who were openly gay or indulged in anything except food, I'd gather quite a following.

Anyways, this has ended up as I thought it would. Congratulations on your perception that the christian God is working miracles in your life.
Holy Bible part Deux...hmm. OK, I tell you what. If you ever seriously believe God is speaking to you and has given you a message to pass on to others, please, by all means, let us know. If at that point you pass all the appropriate Biblical tests, I'll listen to what you have to say and act on it accordingly. However, since you currently fail several of the tests, its not looking good for you for the moment. :lol:

Its actually pretty interesting looking at who the Bible writers are and discovering the special relationship or experience that they had with God that led to their writings being included in the Holy Scriptures. Some spoke directly with or had some kind of contact with God. Some were recognized as prophets. Some were disciples/apostles of Jesus who experienced God Incarnate face to face, etc. The point is, for the vast majority of the Bible writers, they had something special or out of the ordinary about them that adds considerable weight and relevance to whatever they are writing about. Of course you would have to believe them for it to be relevant to you, but the point is, they were more than just some random white beard with the ability to put pen to paper.

Anyway, we fly to the mainland in a couple hours and I best be getting my last minute preparations out of the way. Thanks for the conversation. Maybe we can continue it when I return in 3 weeks. Peace.

HansMojo
06-14-2009, 10:20 PM
A co-worker of mine, who is Episcopalian, said he could never get tattoos b/c he wouldn't be able to be buried in hallowed ground. This guy also gives up stuff for lent and does all of these other religious "things" throughout the year.

Since I have tattoos and don't give up anything for lent, it looks like I'm screwed.

Right?
I'm not sure if you are being serious or not, but... If that is true, you may not be allowed to be buried in hallowed Episcopalian ground (don't know anything about tats and Episcopalians to be honest), but If I was in your shoes, this probably wouldn't be a big concern of mine. Are you even Episcopalian?

Plus, all you really need to do is pray about it...sincerely. Bring it before the Lord and if He were to put it on your heart that your tattoos were separating you from Him for whatever reason, all you would need to do would be to confess the sin and repent (don't get anymore tattoos) and if you really felt impressed to do so, have them removed. But that's just how I would handle it if I was in your shoes (which I'm not) and felt compelled to deal with them. Personally, I don't think God is all that concerned when people come to Him and are all inked up. We all come to God with some kind of past (some more colorful than others). What God wants is for us to come to Him and allow Him to begin the process of recreating us in His image. He takes us where we are at and moves us forward from there.

Personally, I don't have any ink and certainly don't plan on getting any, nor would I recommend a converted Christian go out and get all inked up (though the Bible prohibition on tattoos may have more to do with pagan worship practices in the OT than the type of tatoo people get today...but I prefer to err on the side of caution when unsure). Peace.

SoJoMike
06-15-2009, 05:48 AM
If you ever seriously believe God is speaking to you and has given you a message to pass on to others, please, by all means, let us know. If at that point you pass all the appropriate Biblical tests, I'll listen to what you have to say and act on it accordingly.

Everything I have written in this thread is inspired by God. You will just have to take my word for it, just as you've taken others' word for it.

SpurzN703
06-15-2009, 09:39 AM
I'm not sure if you are being serious or not, but... If that is true, you may not be allowed to be buried in hallowed Episcopalian ground (don't know anything about tats and Episcopalians to be honest), but If I was in your shoes, this probably wouldn't be a big concern of mine. Are you even Episcopalian?

Plus, all you really need to do is pray about it...sincerely. Bring it before the Lord and if He were to put it on your heart that your tattoos were separating you from Him for whatever reason, all you would need to do would be to confess the sin and repent (don't get anymore tattoos) and if you really felt impressed to do so, have them removed. But that's just how I would handle it if I was in your shoes (which I'm not) and felt compelled to deal with them. Personally, I don't think God is all that concerned when people come to Him and are all inked up. We all come to God with some kind of past (some more colorful than others). What God wants is for us to come to Him and allow Him to begin the process of recreating us in His image. He takes us where we are at and moves us forward from there.

Personally, I don't have any ink and certainly don't plan on getting any, nor would I recommend a converted Christian go out and get all inked up (though the Bible prohibition on tattoos may have more to do with pagan worship practices in the OT than the type of tatoo people get today...but I prefer to err on the side of caution when unsure). Peace.

I was serious, I wouldn't come into this thread and start joking around. I'm also not Episcopalian nor am I confined to any religion.

There's no way I'm getting them removed though. I do appreciate your response back. :hi5:

Dolphan7
06-15-2009, 01:07 PM
I was serious, I wouldn't come into this thread and start joking around. I'm also not Episcopalian nor am I confined to any religion.

There's no way I'm getting them removed though. I do appreciate your response back. :hi5:God doesn't care what tattoos you have, or what you eat. God cares about your heart and your relationship with him. I know many Christians who have tattoos. I have one! But I do think that it is the condition of ones heart that is the issue. Obviously God wouldn't like one putting "Satan Rules" on your forearm, not if one is a Christian.

SpurzN703
06-15-2009, 02:34 PM
God doesn't care what tattoos you have, or what you eat. God cares about your heart and your relationship with him. I know many Christians who have tattoos. I have one! But I do think that it is the condition of ones heart that is the issue. Obviously God wouldn't like one putting "Satan Rules" on your forearm, not if one is a Christian.

True. No tatt I've gotten would offend God, unless he liked the Houston Rockets instead :up:

Dolphan7
06-15-2009, 02:50 PM
True. No tatt I've gotten would offend God, unless he liked the Houston Rockets instead :up:No way! God is most definitely a Lakers fan!!!

It's in the Bible - 1st Opinions I believe.:)

Dolphan7
06-15-2009, 03:02 PM
A few things in reading this thread from over the weekend.

First off - God doesn't send people to hell, no matter what one believes hell is, God doesn't send people there - WE DO! We do it by our choices.

It's like this. God is the captain of a ship. He has his crew (us), and wishes to sail on into eternity with his faithful and trusted crew. There are some rules though. He says not to jump overboard, or we will surely drown and die. Some choose to disobey that command however. God being so loving and constantly trying to help us and point us in the right direction, throws out a life preserver (Jesus) for those floundering around in the water. Some choose to swim toward the life preserver and are pulled back onto the boat and thus saved. Others refuse it. All God does in the end is separate those who chose that life preserver, and those that didn't. But God didn't put people in those two groups. We did.

God is very reactionary. We do stuff, and God reacts to what we do. This is true throughout history and even in our lives today. Adam and Eve sinned, against God's command, and thus the consequences for that have been born out, just as God said they would. God didn't set this in motion, we did. God destroyed the world with a flood. Why? Because Satan and his minions were procreating with mankind, and God could not let that happen. Read Gen 6:1-4 and Jude 6-7. He may have been angry, but Gen 6:6 tells us that God was sorry and he was grieved. He had to react to the actions of demons and men procreating. When I do good stuff according to what God says, God rewards me. When I turn my back on God, he doesn't. It is that plain and simple. Doesn't mean bad things won't happen to good christian people. Doesn't mean good things won't happen to bad people. But by and large when we are pointed toward God good things happen. It allows God to work within our lives. When we are pointed away from him, it makes it harder and harder for God to work within their lives. So much so that their heart is hardened and for those salvation is very distant. I see it so often, especially in this forum. Many have hardened hearts. So much so that they would miss any sign of God in their lives. That is why I pray that God soften their hearts, open their hearts and minds, and use me in whatever way he can to accomplish that. Glory be to God, not me.

The key focal point of the entire bible is Jesus. He is the path to salvation. One either accepts that or rejects that. IF one chooses to believe that there is another choice, then they are certainly entitled to that, just so long as they are 100% sure about that. If they are then live life as you see fit, as will we in the Christian faith will do also. In the end only one will be right. If one isn't 100% sure, then you owe it to yourself to keep looking, searching, asking for God's truth. That can come in many ways and shapes and forms. It isn't some ellusive concept that requires blind faith. It isn't throwing out all logic an intellect. There is enough proof to go around. This is coming from a former Atheist! Trust me I know. I have been there.

When one looks at the Bible and is considering God, I believe they have started in the middle of the movie and making wrong conclusions based on missing the first half. The first half begins at the very beginning, of earth, and the universe. How did we get here? How did life come from non-life. How did something come from nothing? How did matter come from non-matter? Even science cannot grasp how this could ever happen, although some pretty far fetched ideas have srpung up, that defy all logic and intellect. One is left to conclude that matter and life must have come from some sort of creator, or designer in light of the evidence of design in practically everything we see. When one gets to the point that this must have been created, then it isn't much further to look at the God of the Bible as the most logical and comprehensive explanation as to not only how we got here, but why we were created. It gives hope, and purpose, and meaning to life. Otherwise we might as well all just die and the Nihilists would say - all we are is dust in the wind.

SpurzN703
06-15-2009, 05:21 PM
A few things in reading this thread from over the weekend.

First off - God doesn't send people to hell, no matter what one believes hell is, God doesn't send people there - WE DO! We do it by our choices.

It's like this. God is the captain of a ship. He has his crew (us), and wishes to sail on into eternity with his faithful and trusted crew. There are some rules though. He says not to jump overboard, or we will surely drown and die. Some choose to disobey that command however. God being so loving and constantly trying to help us and point us in the right direction, throws out a life preserver (Jesus) for those floundering around in the water. Some choose to swim toward the life preserver and are pulled back onto the boat and thus saved. Others refuse it. All God does in the end is separate those who chose that life preserver, and those that didn't. But God didn't put people in those two groups. We did.

God is very reactionary. We do stuff, and God reacts to what we do. This is true throughout history and even in our lives today. Adam and Eve sinned, against God's command, and thus the consequences for that have been born out, just as God said they would. God didn't set this in motion, we did. God destroyed the world with a flood. Why? Because Satan and his minions were procreating with mankind, and God could not let that happen. Read Gen 6:1-4 and Jude 6-7. He may have been angry, but Gen 6:6 tells us that God was sorry and he was grieved. He had to react to the actions of demons and men procreating. When I do good stuff according to what God says, God rewards me. When I turn my back on God, he doesn't. It is that plain and simple. Doesn't mean bad things won't happen to good christian people. Doesn't mean good things won't happen to bad people. But by and large when we are pointed toward God good things happen. It allows God to work within our lives. When we are pointed away from him, it makes it harder and harder for God to work within their lives. So much so that their heart is hardened and for those salvation is very distant. I see it so often, especially in this forum. Many have hardened hearts. So much so that they would miss any sign of God in their lives. That is why I pray that God soften their hearts, open their hearts and minds, and use me in whatever way he can to accomplish that. Glory be to God, not me.

The key focal point of the entire bible is Jesus. He is the path to salvation. One either accepts that or rejects that. IF one chooses to believe that there is another choice, then they are certainly entitled to that, just so long as they are 100% sure about that. If they are then live life as you see fit, as will we in the Christian faith will do also. In the end only one will be right. If one isn't 100% sure, then you owe it to yourself to keep looking, searching, asking for God's truth. That can come in many ways and shapes and forms. It isn't some ellusive concept that requires blind faith. It isn't throwing out all logic an intellect. There is enough proof to go around. This is coming from a former Atheist! Trust me I know. I have been there.

When one looks at the Bible and is considering God, I believe they have started in the middle of the movie and making wrong conclusions based on missing the first half. The first half begins at the very beginning, of earth, and the universe. How did we get here? How did life come from non-life. How did something come from nothing? How did matter come from non-matter? Even science cannot grasp how this could ever happen, although some pretty far fetched ideas have srpung up, that defy all logic and intellect. One is left to conclude that matter and life must have come from some sort of creator, or designer in light of the evidence of design in practically everything we see. When one gets to the point that this must have been created, then it isn't much further to look at the God of the Bible as the most logical and comprehensive explanation as to not only how we got here, but why we were created. It gives hope, and purpose, and meaning to life. Otherwise we might as well all just die and the Nihilists would say - all we are is dust in the wind.

What happens to those who chose to just stay in the water as opposed to not using or using the life preserver?

Dolphan7
06-15-2009, 05:39 PM
What happens to those who chose to just stay in the water as opposed to not using or using the life preserver?Well...unless they can tread water indefinitely, they will die, just as the captain said they would in the beginning.

SoJoMike
06-15-2009, 08:04 PM
A few things in reading this thread from over the weekend.

First off - God doesn't send people to hell, no matter what one believes hell is, God doesn't send people there - WE DO! We do it by our choices.

It's like this. God is the captain of a ship. He has his crew (us), and wishes to sail on into eternity with his faithful and trusted crew. There are some rules though. He says not to jump overboard, or we will surely drown and die. Some choose to disobey that command however. God being so loving and constantly trying to help us and point us in the right direction, throws out a life preserver (Jesus) for those floundering around in the water. Some choose to swim toward the life preserver and are pulled back onto the boat and thus saved. Others refuse it. All God does in the end is separate those who chose that life preserver, and those that didn't. But God didn't put people in those two groups. We did.

God is very reactionary. We do stuff, and God reacts to what we do. This is true throughout history and even in our lives today. Adam and Eve sinned, against God's command, and thus the consequences for that have been born out, just as God said they would. God didn't set this in motion, we did. God destroyed the world with a flood. Why? Because Satan and his minions were procreating with mankind, and God could not let that happen. Read Gen 6:1-4 and Jude 6-7. He may have been angry, but Gen 6:6 tells us that God was sorry and he was grieved. He had to react to the actions of demons and men procreating. When I do good stuff according to what God says, God rewards me. When I turn my back on God, he doesn't. It is that plain and simple. Doesn't mean bad things won't happen to good christian people. Doesn't mean good things won't happen to bad people. But by and large when we are pointed toward God good things happen. It allows God to work within our lives. When we are pointed away from him, it makes it harder and harder for God to work within their lives. So much so that their heart is hardened and for those salvation is very distant. I see it so often, especially in this forum. Many have hardened hearts. So much so that they would miss any sign of God in their lives. That is why I pray that God soften their hearts, open their hearts and minds, and use me in whatever way he can to accomplish that. Glory be to God, not me.

The key focal point of the entire bible is Jesus. He is the path to salvation. One either accepts that or rejects that. IF one chooses to believe that there is another choice, then they are certainly entitled to that, just so long as they are 100% sure about that. If they are then live life as you see fit, as will we in the Christian faith will do also. In the end only one will be right. If one isn't 100% sure, then you owe it to yourself to keep looking, searching, asking for God's truth. That can come in many ways and shapes and forms. It isn't some ellusive concept that requires blind faith. It isn't throwing out all logic an intellect. There is enough proof to go around. This is coming from a former Atheist! Trust me I know. I have been there.

When one looks at the Bible and is considering God, I believe they have started in the middle of the movie and making wrong conclusions based on missing the first half. The first half begins at the very beginning, of earth, and the universe. How did we get here? How did life come from non-life. How did something come from nothing? How did matter come from non-matter? Even science cannot grasp how this could ever happen, although some pretty far fetched ideas have srpung up, that defy all logic and intellect. One is left to conclude that matter and life must have come from some sort of creator, or designer in light of the evidence of design in practically everything we see. When one gets to the point that this must have been created, then it isn't much further to look at the God of the Bible as the most logical and comprehensive explanation as to not only how we got here, but why we were created. It gives hope, and purpose, and meaning to life. Otherwise we might as well all just die and the Nihilists would say - all we are is dust in the wind.

You can't explain how the Bible is the truth about God by quoting the Bible. That's lke saying it's right because it's right. Can't you see that? There may be some verifiable truths in the Bible. Not everything can be verified, particularly the nature of God. So at that point, believing what Joe Blow wrote about it is not a certainty. Not everyone is an "all or nothing" thinker, has that occurred to you? The Bible doesn't give me any hope or comfort because it too clearly written by people who couldn't think beyond the simple framework of a human being. It presents God as essentially a human being with feelings and emotions. What use does God have for creating a species to see whether or not they would fail? "Hoping" they will all succeed. Hoping? Really? God hopes? Are you kidding me? The entire universe should be calculable for God. God should be able to calculate everything that will happen with the finite matter that has been created (or has always existed)? That should be a snap for the creator. Have you ever engineered anything from scratch? You know the ins and outs and can predict behavior to a certainty, and your inability not to can only be dreived from the fact you are human (I don't mean You, but you in the general sense of course).

The Bible gives hope and comfort to those who are willing to accept a simple explanation. I find more hope and comfort in the belief that God is so much more than what you find in the Bible, and exists to the exclusion of all the man-made BS (Bible Stuff?:))

Dolphan7
06-15-2009, 08:31 PM
You can't explain how the Bible is the truth about God by quoting the Bible. That's lke saying it's right because it's right. Can't you see that? There may be some verifiable truths in the Bible. Not everything can be verified, particularly the nature of God. So at that point, believing what Joe Blow wrote about it is not a certainty. Not everyone is an "all or nothing" thinker, has that occurred to you? The Bible doesn't give me any hope or comfort because it too clearly written by people who couldn't think beyond the simple framework of a human being. It presents God as essentially a human being with feelings and emotions. What use does God have for creating a species to see whether or not they would fail? "Hoping" they will all succeed. Hoping? Really? God hopes? Are you kidding me? The entire universe should be calculable for God. God should be able to calculate everything that will happen with the finite matter that has been created (or has always existed)? That should be a snap for the creator. Have you ever engineered anything from scratch? You know the ins and outs and can predict behavior to a certainty, and your inability not to can only be dreived from the fact you are human (I don't mean You, but you in the general sense of course).

The Bible gives hope and comfort to those who are willing to accept a simple explanation. I find more hope and comfort in the belief that God is so much more than what you find in the Bible, and exists to the exclusion of all the man-made BS (Bible Stuff?:))I am sorry.. but where did I say that "the Bible is the truth about God by quoting the Bible"? You lost me right there. Please explain? Certainly there are some assumptions I make in that I believe in God Jesus and the bible and in context of this thread this is what we are talking about. Certainly also there are other concepts of what God is. You yourself have your own ideas of what the nature and attributes of God are. One question....what do you base your idea of God "on"?

There are many things in the bible we can never know for sure until we are face to face with the creator, but there are things we can be certain of, and based on that we accept the rest on faith. That is the definition of faith. I base my faith in Jesus. He did live, and died, and lived again and is who he said he was. After that it isn't hard to believe in the rest. It really isn't.

God does have emotions. We know this because we were created in his image and likeness, and we have emotions. We want that in a God. We need that in a God. But we know and understand that God is in full control of his emotions. His justice is just that - just and appropriate. God doesn't sit back and "hope" everything will work out for us. He does know the beginning from the end. He does know what will happen. The hope I refer to is the hope "we" have in knowing that we are created beings, made by a creator who loves us, and who deeply wants to have fellowship with us - for eternity! It gives us meaning and purpose in this life, knowing that in the end all will be forgiven and all the wrongs will be righted and we will live in peace and harmony in heaven. That and a whole bunch of other cool things!

Again I ask you what do you base your belief that God is so much more than what the bible says? I would really like to know.

Thanks!

syborg
06-16-2009, 04:56 AM
Here is a question. .

What happens to a believer if he commits adultery. . the bible says adulterers will not get to heaven but if you are a saved child of God but then run off with a member of the opposite sex leaving your christian spouse behind. what is the judgement for that. . if there is one?

Dolphan7
06-16-2009, 12:09 PM
Here is a question. .

What happens to a believer if he commits adultery. . the bible says adulterers will not get to heaven but if you are a saved child of God but then run off with a member of the opposite sex leaving your christian spouse behind. what is the judgment for that. . if there is one?

What happens if a believer has an abortion? Or gets divorced?

All these sins can be forgiven when one repents and stops continuing to willfully sin.

These are one time sins, not a continual lifetime of willfully sinning against God.

I have heard it said that believers are to live their lives consistently living right for God, and inconsistently sinning. If it is the other way around....not good.

It doesn't mean there won't be earthly consequences to these sins. The spouse who leaves his mate for another will have to deal with the broken relationship, a bitter divorce no doubt which could include financial problems, and if they are somehow reconciled to each other, the trust that has to be rebuilt over time and all that goes along with that.

The believer who has an abortion has the deal with all the emotions that go along with such a decision. It leaves emotional scars that last a lifetime.

The key is a repentent heart and a desire to make your life right with God again and continue to keep living right for God. We all sin, but it should be inconsistent, and we should be repentant and always seeking ways to avoid sin in our lives.

SoJoMike
06-16-2009, 12:45 PM
I am sorry.. but where did I say that "the Bible is the truth about God by quoting the Bible"? You lost me right there. Please explain? Certainly there are some assumptions I make in that I believe in God Jesus and the bible and in context of this thread this is what we are talking about. Certainly also there are other concepts of what God is. You yourself have your own ideas of what the nature and attributes of God are. One question....what do you base your idea of God "on"?

There are many things in the bible we can never know for sure until we are face to face with the creator, but there are things we can be certain of, and based on that we accept the rest on faith. That is the definition of faith. I base my faith in Jesus. He did live, and died, and lived again and is who he said he was. After that it isn't hard to believe in the rest. It really isn't.

God does have emotions. We know this because we were created in his image and likeness, and we have emotions. We want that in a God. We need that in a God. But we know and understand that God is in full control of his emotions. His justice is just that - just and appropriate. God doesn't sit back and "hope" everything will work out for us. He does know the beginning from the end. He does know what will happen. The hope I refer to is the hope "we" have in knowing that we are created beings, made by a creator who loves us, and who deeply wants to have fellowship with us - for eternity! It gives us meaning and purpose in this life, knowing that in the end all will be forgiven and all the wrongs will be righted and we will live in peace and harmony in heaven. That and a whole bunch of other cool things!

Again I ask you what do you base your belief that God is so much more than what the bible says? I would really like to know.

Thanks!

Wow, my reply to this post has disappeared. I even edited it, so I know it was there. It has mysteriously disappeared.

Was I suppressed? Probably, because I caught someone in an embarrassing contradiction. I should have known better than to think I could have a reasonable discussion about this.

Dolphan7
06-16-2009, 12:59 PM
Wow, my reply to this post has disappeared. I even edited it, so I know it was there. It has mysteriously disappeared.

Was I suppressed? Probably, because I caught someone in an embarrassing contradiction. I should have known better than to think I could have a reasonable discussion about this.I don't know what happened to your post. As a Mod I can see if it has been deleted, but there is no record of any post. I don't know what to tell you. Can you repost it?

SoJoMike
06-16-2009, 06:22 PM
I don't know what happened to your post. As a Mod I can see if it has been deleted, but there is no record of any post. I don't know what to tell you. Can you repost it?

It was there around 6 am EST today. After posting it I noticed I had left behind an incomplete sentence and used the edit button to rectify. It had to have been posted for me to do that right?

Dolphan7
06-16-2009, 06:38 PM
It was there around 6 am EST today. After posting it I noticed I had left behind an incomplete sentence and used the edit button to rectify. It had to have been posted for me to do that right?You would think, but there is no record of it. I have asked the other mods and admins about it and they have not seen it either. Strange.

Can you repost it?

SoJoMike
06-16-2009, 06:45 PM
I am sorry.. but where did I say that "the Bible is the truth about God by quoting the Bible"? You lost me right there. Please explain? Certainly there are some assumptions I make in that I believe in God Jesus and the bible and in context of this thread this is what we are talking about. Certainly also there are other concepts of what God is. You yourself have your own ideas of what the nature and attributes of God are. One question....what do you base your idea of God "on"?

There are many things in the bible we can never know for sure until we are face to face with the creator, but there are things we can be certain of, and based on that we accept the rest on faith. That is the definition of faith. I base my faith in Jesus. He did live, and died, and lived again and is who he said he was. After that it isn't hard to believe in the rest. It really isn't.

God does have emotions. We know this because we were created in his image and likeness, and we have emotions. We want that in a God. We need that in a God. But we know and understand that God is in full control of his emotions. His justice is just that - just and appropriate. God doesn't sit back and "hope" everything will work out for us. He does know the beginning from the end. He does know what will happen. The hope I refer to is the hope "we" have in knowing that we are created beings, made by a creator who loves us, and who deeply wants to have fellowship with us - for eternity! It gives us meaning and purpose in this life, knowing that in the end all will be forgiven and all the wrongs will be righted and we will live in peace and harmony in heaven. That and a whole bunch of other cool things!

Again I ask you what do you base your belief that God is so much more than what the bible says? I would really like to know.

Thanks!

You can't possibly be lost that easily. It's amazing how "dumb" people become when they are trying to be difficult.

Here is an example from an earlier post where you make an assertion about the true nature of God (I assume you meant this to be a truth) and use the bible to prove it.

"God is very reactionary......He may have been angry, but Gen 6:6 tells us that God was sorry and he was grieved."

Are you hung up on the fact I said you quote the Bible and you merely gave a Bible verse as a reference? That's splitting hairs if you are.

Based on that statement you made, I'd have to believe the Bible is the truth to accept what you are saying, and this thread was founded on a question that flies in the face of the "God is Love" concept. You yourself stated in another post "He does know the beginning from the end" in reference to whether God has a need for hope. If God knows one will suffer in Hell for all eternity and creates that person anyway, God is not only Love, God is malevolent too.

One of my earlier points was that while some parts of the bible may be true because it is an account of history (and even then, you have apply the "someone wrote this stuff" factor), that is not a reason to believe everything written in it as absolute truth. That's an assumption you seem to make all too easily.

What do I base my beliefs on? I am not an atheist (I find it interesting that you, D7, were once as that is another all or nothing way of thinking). My beliefs about the nature of God may or may not intersect with various religions, I don't really care. I believe God is everything, all the good stuff and all the bad stuff. Its the only thing that seems reasonable to me. I don't need to read it in a book to be guided to that conclusion. Now that leaves a lot of unanswered questions and I don't have the bandwidth right now to fill in all the details, but the Bible attempts to fill them in and too many things don't make sense.

Dolphan7
06-16-2009, 11:42 PM
You can't possibly be lost that easily. It's amazing how "dumb" people become when they are trying to be difficult.Try to keep the personal jabs out of your argument. Your argument stands as it is, this just takes away from it.


Here is an example from an earlier post where you make an assertion about the true nature of God (I assume you meant this to be a truth) and use the bible to prove it.

"God is very reactionary......He may have been angry, but Gen 6:6 tells us that God was sorry and he was grieved."

Are you hung up on the fact I said you quote the Bible and you merely gave a Bible verse as a reference? That's splitting hairs if you are.Context is everything. My response was to a poster who accused God of not only being angry, but losing control of his anger by creating the world wide flood. My answer was that he may have been angry, but we don't know that, what we do know is what is written in Gen 6 about how God felt about the flood and the reasons why. I am not using the bible as proof, only noting that this is what the bible says about God, and it is the only reference we have of the Judeo/Christian God. Where else would we know anything else about historical events and how and what God did to deal with them. Yes it takes belief in the bible as a valid source of God's attributes, qualities and such. That is the matter of faith.


Based on that statement you made, I'd have to believe the Bible is the truth to accept what you are saying, and this thread was founded on a question that flies in the face of the "God is Love" concept. You yourself stated in another post "He does know the beginning from the end" in reference to whether God has a need for hope. If God knows one will suffer in Hell for all eternity and creates that person anyway, God is not only Love, God is malevolent too. God created Adam and Eve. He gave them free will, although they didn't know they had it or understand exactly what that meant, until it was too late. But the rest of us are not created from God as they were. We are the products of generation after generation of procreation. God gives us a choice, otherwise we would either all be lost, or all be saved - whether we wanted to or not. Or God would pick and choose Himself who is saved and who is not. Not liking this type of God. Thankfully he isn't like that at all. What you are implying in this paragraph is that God should look into the future, make a list of those whom he knows will not choose Jesus, and stop them from being born. So much for free will. Had he done that you and I may not be posting on this forum. The other alternative you are suggesting, although I don't believe you even realize this, is that God should allow all to enter heaven no matter what. That would be interesting except that God cannot stand sin. Cannot even be around it - physically. He is so pure, so pure that the light emanating from him is so extreme humans cannot come in contact with it, nor He them, lest they burn. Check out Moses when he went up on the mountain. That is God and that is how he cannot stand sin, or be around those who do sin - US! Because of sin, there needs to be justice. There needs to be a consequence, a price. That price or cost is death. Because of sin we die, physically die. That wasn't the original plan. In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve lived several hundred years old. They were not supposed to ever die. The intent was to live with and among God in a sinless world forever. Because of free will, sin entered the picture no thanks to a particular little demon called Satan. Because of that sin there had to be a punishment or atonement for that sin. Nothing we could ever do ourselves was ever good enough of an atonement. That is why God sent Jesus, his son, to stand in our place - sinless and blameless, as the perfect atonement, sacrifice, and payment in full for all sin. Jesus is the way. Jesus is the "get out of hell free card" in the universal game of Godopoly! So there is no way God can allow people into heaven unless they accept Jesus, otherwise he died for nothing. That is the way it is -ask God when you see him as to why.


One of my earlier points was that while some parts of the bible may be true because it is an account of history (and even then, you have apply the "someone wrote this stuff" factor), that is not a reason to believe everything written in it as absolute truth. That's an assumption you seem to make all too easily.To me, and the greater Christian body, the bible is a take it all or leave it all type of deal. It is all or nothing. Either it is true from front to back, or it is all false. There can be no in between. Picking and choosing what parts of the bible are true and what are false leads to several trillion different possibilities, potentially one for every man woman and child who has ever been born since the dawn of time. There is no way to effectively extract any truth when there are so many opinions. See the problem? Based on several factors including eye witness testimonies of Jesus, plus archeological support, fulfilled prophesy and the over 300 prophesies fulfilled by Jesus, I know that certain parts of the bible to be true, and based on that I accept the rest on faith. That is how it works. Yes there are some things I shake my head at and think - that was pretty weird. But I accept it to be true based on the things I can know to be true. Please read Heb 11:1


What do I base my beliefs on? I am not an atheist (I find it interesting that you, D7, were once as that is another all or nothing way of thinking). My beliefs about the nature of God may or may not intersect with various religions, I don't really care. I believe God is everything, all the good stuff and all the bad stuff. Its the only thing that seems reasonable to me. I don't need to read it in a book to be guided to that conclusion. Now that leaves a lot of unanswered questions and I don't have the bandwidth right now to fill in all the details, but the Bible attempts to fill them in and too many things don't make sense.Believe it brother! I used to be an atheist and bought the evolution lie hook line and sinker. I used to be a hard core christian basher, or any religious person. They were all nuts. I would laugh at them and point up to the sky and ask them - "What do you see you stupid idiot - Nothing! There is nothing up there". Yes that was me. God has certainly humbled me. I was/am the biggest skeptic you could ever meet. But God worked on me, and I think a lot of people were praying for me. You don't seem to be totally against the concept of God, just on exactly what God is, or isn't, and what is true and authoritative. I understand you may have questions and some things don't make sense. Try me, I hope I can help answer some of your questions. If you are sincere about it so am I. But if you are seeking to use this forum as a launching pad to attack, ridicule and bash those of faith - please don't. That has been done enough around here and it really takes us nowhere.

TedSlimmJr
06-17-2009, 03:24 AM
Here is a question. .

What happens to a believer if he commits adultery. . the bible says adulterers will not get to heaven but if you are a saved child of God but then run off with a member of the opposite sex leaving your christian spouse behind. what is the judgement for that. . if there is one?


The Bible tells us that sins against mankind are "forgivable" sins...

Sins against the Holy Ghost are not....such as blasphemy...etc..

SoJoMike
06-17-2009, 06:21 AM
Try to keep the personal jabs out of your argument. Your argument stands as it is, this just takes away from it.

Context is everything. My response was to a poster who accused God of not only being angry, but losing control of his anger by creating the world wide flood. My answer was that he may have been angry, but we don't know that, what we do know is what is written in Gen 6 about how God felt about the flood and the reasons why. I am not using the bible as proof, only noting that this is what the bible says about God, and it is the only reference we have of the Judeo/Christian God. Where else would we know anything else about historical events and how and what God did to deal with them. Yes it takes belief in the bible as a valid source of God's attributes, qualities and such. That is the matter of faith.

God created Adam and Eve. He gave them free will, although they didn't know they had it or understand exactly what that meant, until it was too late. But the rest of us are not created from God as they were. We are the products of generation after generation of procreation. God gives us a choice, otherwise we would either all be lost, or all be saved - whether we wanted to or not. Or God would pick and choose Himself who is saved and who is not. Not liking this type of God. Thankfully he isn't like that at all. What you are implying in this paragraph is that God should look into the future, make a list of those whom he knows will not choose Jesus, and stop them from being born. So much for free will. Had he done that you and I may not be posting on this forum. The other alternative you are suggesting, although I don't believe you even realize this, is that God should allow all to enter heaven no matter what. That would be interesting except that God cannot stand sin. Cannot even be around it - physically. He is so pure, so pure that the light emanating from him is so extreme humans cannot come in contact with it, nor He them, lest they burn. Check out Moses when he went up on the mountain. That is God and that is how he cannot stand sin, or be around those who do sin - US! Because of sin, there needs to be justice. There needs to be a consequence, a price. That price or cost is death. Because of sin we die, physically die. That wasn't the original plan. In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve lived several hundred years old. They were not supposed to ever die. The intent was to live with and among God in a sinless world forever. Because of free will, sin entered the picture no thanks to a particular little demon called Satan. Because of that sin there had to be a punishment or atonement for that sin. Nothing we could ever do ourselves was ever good enough of an atonement. That is why God sent Jesus, his son, to stand in our place - sinless and blameless, as the perfect atonement, sacrifice, and payment in full for all sin. Jesus is the way. Jesus is the "get out of hell free card" in the universal game of Godopoly! So there is no way God can allow people into heaven unless they accept Jesus, otherwise he died for nothing. That is the way it is -ask God when you see him as to why.

To me, and the greater Christian body, the bible is a take it all or leave it all type of deal. It is all or nothing. Either it is true from front to back, or it is all false. There can be no in between. Picking and choosing what parts of the bible are true and what are false leads to several trillion different possibilities, potentially one for every man woman and child who has ever been born since the dawn of time. There is no way to effectively extract any truth when there are so many opinions. See the problem? Based on several factors including eye witness testimonies of Jesus, plus archeological support, fulfilled prophesy and the over 300 prophesies fulfilled by Jesus, I know that certain parts of the bible to be true, and based on that I accept the rest on faith. That is how it works. Yes there are some things I shake my head at and think - that was pretty weird. But I accept it to be true based on the things I can know to be true. Please read Heb 11:1

Believe it brother! I used to be an atheist and bought the evolution lie hook line and sinker. I used to be a hard core christian basher, or any religious person. They were all nuts. I would laugh at them and point up to the sky and ask them - "What do you see you stupid idiot - Nothing! There is nothing up there". Yes that was me. God has certainly humbled me. I was/am the biggest skeptic you could ever meet. But God worked on me, and I think a lot of people were praying for me. You don't seem to be totally against the concept of God, just on exactly what God is, or isn't, and what is true and authoritative. I understand you may have questions and some things don't make sense. Try me, I hope I can help answer some of your questions. If you are sincere about it so am I. But if you are seeking to use this forum as a launching pad to attack, ridicule and bash those of faith - please don't. That has been done enough around here and it really takes us nowhere.

If you got offended about anything I said, I apologize.

I don't believe God to have a "brain" that is in control of everything. Since I believe God to be everything, that includes you, me, the stars and everything else. I think God is a fluid situation striving for balance, but never quite achieving it. I don't think it is perfect, it just is. There are both fortunate and unfortunate deviations from perfection (some "center") in the universe. For example, were God perfect, everyone would be Dolphin fans. :)

I don't, and probably never will, align myself with a particular religious teaching. I read this forum because I generally think the questions are interesting. I focus more on questions than answers. Maybe that is my shortcoming. I guess I read enough of the answers based on what I believe to be flawed documentation and wanted to see some answers to some of the hard questions. You could perceive that as launching attacks, but I'd rather see if there are answers to my questions that don't require a rigid line of thinking. I went through this same thing when I was a young teen at the church I was attending at the time and basically got told to shut up and fall in line.

I will keep reading, hopefully see some things that will strike a chord, and filter the rest out.

syborg
06-17-2009, 09:53 AM
What happens if a believer has an abortion? Or gets divorced?

All these sins can be forgiven when one repents and stops continuing to willfully sin.

These are one time sins, not a continual lifetime of willfully sinning against God.

I have heard it said that believers are to live their lives consistently living right for God, and inconsistently sinning. If it is the other way around....not good.

It doesn't mean there won't be earthly consequences to these sins. The spouse who leaves his mate for another will have to deal with the broken relationship, a bitter divorce no doubt which could include financial problems, and if they are somehow reconciled to each other, the trust that has to be rebuilt over time and all that goes along with that.

The believer who has an abortion has the deal with all the emotions that go along with such a decision. It leaves emotional scars that last a lifetime.

The key is a repentent heart and a desire to make your life right with God again and continue to keep living right for God. We all sin, but it should be inconsistent, and we should be repentant and always seeking ways to avoid sin in our lives.

ok. . i understand what your saying, but suppose you were a christian and left your wife/husband for another. . fell in love with the other new mate but were repentent of your previous action. . should you then leave your new mate and try to reconciled to God and your previous spouse?
does the bible say that if you have another mate other than your wife/husband then you are in adultery anyway. . ?

hmmm not feeling like im being clear here ok. . lets try this what if. .

ok so say Im married to a christian wife but then meet a women and begin an affair and then fall in love with the new women. . my wife throws me out and I now shack up with the new mate. .
I repent to God over my wrong doing. . should I then try to reconcile with my wife. . or if she wont have me let her divorce me for adultery. . then being the adulterer I would always be in adultery with any other partner while she is free to re marry. .?
Should you then as a repentent christian leave your adulterous relationship and remain single or know that God has forgiven you and remain faithfull to your new partner and honour God and yourself in that new relationship. .

I ask this because this happened to a family member recently and I am trying to reconcile how I feel about it and what the Christian,biblical take on it is. .

Dolphan7
06-17-2009, 11:23 AM
ok. . i understand what your saying, but suppose you were a christian and left your wife/husband for another. . fell in love with the other new mate but were repentent of your previous action. . should you then leave your new mate and try to reconciled to God and your previous spouse?
does the bible say that if you have another mate other than your wife/husband then you are in adultery anyway. . ?

hmmm not feeling like im being clear here ok. . lets try this what if. .

ok so say Im married to a christian wife but then meet a women and begin an affair and then fall in love with the new women. . my wife throws me out and I now shack up with the new mate. .
I repent to God over my wrong doing. . should I then try to reconcile with my wife. . or if she wont have me let her divorce me for adultery. . then being the adulterer I would always be in adultery with any other partner while she is free to re marry. .?
Should you then as a repentent christian leave your adulterous relationship and remain single or know that God has forgiven you and remain faithfull to your new partner and honour God and yourself in that new relationship. .

I ask this because this happened to a family member recently and I am trying to reconcile how I feel about it and what the Christian,biblical take on it is. .

I understand now. Excellent question! It just so happens that this question has come up recently at my church as we discussed marriage and remarriage.

The adulterous spouse has committed the sin of adultery already, that is an ongoing affair and thus an ongoing sin. Two things would end that sin: Reconciliation to the spouse by ending the adulterous affair, or severing the marriage through divorce. Obviously reconciliation would be preferable. But in the cases of divorce for the reason of adultery, the spouses who remarry are not commiting adultery by marrying again. If the reason or cause of the divorce wasn't adultery, then the spouse who remarries is commiting adultery when they consumate the new marriage......one time sin. From then on they are not committing adultery.

SkapePhin
06-17-2009, 01:00 PM
There is a lot to respond to around here. I was busy enjoying the beauty that nature has bestowed upon the coast of Southern California. I'll try to respond to some things soon.

But first I need to hit the beach for another surfing session. :)

Dolphan7
06-17-2009, 05:43 PM
Good seeing you again, D7. I past through your lovely state recently. Arizona is quite remarkable. Definately the most beautiful state I passed through on my way to California from Florida.

Anyway, If a parent loves one child because he does everything he asks of him, but throws the rebellious child to the gutter, I would say that isn't much of a parent... Certainly not "loving". What happened to unconditional love?Some parts of AZ are really beautiful. Did you come through Flag or Phoenix? Or Tucson?

As far as the parent child relationship, picture this if you will. A parent has a child that is hooked on drugs and is destroying his life. The parent explains that if he continues down this road, he will die. The parent also offers to pay for rehab and treatment. The child refuses and ends up dying. That is they way it is with God. God gives us every opportunity to accept Jesus and avoid that horrible fate.

Now as far as the suffering in hell part, one would think the merciful thing to do is for God to simply kill them off, permanently, thus not allowing them to suffer in hell for eternity. Sounds good to me. But there is one problem. I don't believe God can kill the soul. The soul lives on and has to live "somewhere". If there is only heaven and hell, and heaven is out of the question....that leaves only one spot. The bible tells us that even Satan himself will not be killed permanently, but will live on forever in hell. If one would think that if anyone qualified to be killed permanently by God, it would be Satan. Such is not the case.

The issue Skape isn't for you to try to knock what the bible says because you disagree with it, or find it hard to comprehend such a God. The issue is - is it true or not. If you feel it isn't true, then live your life in any way that you wish. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die - right! I find it interesting that for one to disagree so much with God, the christian God, and are sure that it isn't real.....yet the first thread you post upon a lenghty absence from FH, is basically a question disguised as a statement. This tells me that maybe you aren't so sure it isn't true. Otherwise what is the point of your post? Unless it is to stir things up?

I don't know. You have me wondering.

syborg
06-18-2009, 09:24 AM
I understand now. Excellent question! It just so happens that this question has come up recently at my church as we discussed marriage and remarriage.

The adulterous spouse has committed the sin of adultery already, that is an ongoing affair and thus an ongoing sin. Two things would end that sin: Reconciliation to the spouse by ending the adulterous affair, or severing the marriage through divorce. Obviously reconciliation would be preferable. But in the cases of divorce for the reason of adultery, the spouses who remarry are not commiting adultery by marrying again. If the reason or cause of the divorce wasn't adultery, then the spouse who remarries is commiting adultery when they consumate the new marriage......one time sin. From then on they are not committing adultery.

Ok understand. .thanks for helping out on that. .:wink:

aesop
06-18-2009, 01:45 PM
I'm not sure if you are being serious or not, but... If that is true, you may not be allowed to be buried in hallowed Episcopalian ground (don't know anything about tats and Episcopalians to be honest), but If I was in your shoes, this probably wouldn't be a big concern of mine. Are you even Episcopalian? Yeah, those Episcopalians beliefs are ridiculous. Don't even worry about it. My way is the right way.

aesop
06-18-2009, 01:54 PM
I understand now. Excellent question! It just so happens that this question has come up recently at my church as we discussed marriage and remarriage.

The adulterous spouse has committed the sin of adultery already, that is an ongoing affair and thus an ongoing sin. Two things would end that sin: Reconciliation to the spouse by ending the adulterous affair, or severing the marriage through divorce. Obviously reconciliation would be preferable. But in the cases of divorce for the reason of adultery, the spouses who remarry are not commiting adultery by marrying again. If the reason or cause of the divorce wasn't adultery, then the spouse who remarries is commiting adultery when they consumate the new marriage......one time sin. From then on they are not committing adultery.So as long as you either get rid of the spouse or end the affair eventually, all is good and you are no longer a sinner? Isn't condemnation of adultery in the 10 commandments? So as long as it is not presently happening, it is a 'one time sin'? So you can sin as long as you want, but as soon as you're done sinning it is ok? I don't understand the concept of a 'one time sin', if you could explain that'd be great.

SpurzN703
06-18-2009, 02:07 PM
So as long as you either get rid of the spouse or end the affair eventually, all is good and you are no longer a sinner? Isn't condemnation of adultery in the 10 commandments? So as long as it is not presently happening, it is a 'one time sin'? So you can sin as long as you want, but as soon as you're done sinning it is ok? I don't understand the concept of a 'one time sin', if you could explain that'd be great.

All you have to do is ask for forgiveness apparently.

aesop
06-18-2009, 02:14 PM
All you have to do is ask for forgiveness apparently.So then there should be only one commandment..

Be Ready To Make Substance-less Apologies For Your Own Benefit.

Jimi
06-21-2009, 10:49 AM
So then there should be only one commandment..

Be Ready To Make Substance-less Apologies For Your Own Benefit.


You dont think an all powerful God would know the substance of your apology?

SpurzN703
06-21-2009, 08:19 PM
So then there should be only one commandment..

Be Ready To Make Substance-less Apologies For Your Own Benefit.

Is this not true though? If all you have to do is confess to a guy you don't really in a dark phone booth, you're then golden.

Right?

aesop
06-21-2009, 10:10 PM
You dont think an all powerful God would know the substance of your apology?Why would he even need for you to apologize if he knows what the substance will already be. Shouldn't he be able to tell if you were sorry or not to begin with even before you choose to repent? An all powerful god wouldn't need any explanations, he'd already know and have known forever what you'd turn out to be. He made us right?

Dolphan7
06-22-2009, 01:37 PM
So as long as you either get rid of the spouse or end the affair eventually, all is good and you are no longer a sinner? Isn't condemnation of adultery in the 10 commandments? So as long as it is not presently happening, it is a 'one time sin'? So you can sin as long as you want, but as soon as you're done sinning it is ok? I don't understand the concept of a 'one time sin', if you could explain that'd be great.I am not sure if you are sincerely interested in an answer but I will answer because I think you represent a common misconception about sin, sinning, repentance and forgiveness.

As to the context of the issue of adultery and remarriage. When one is involved in an adulterous affair - that person is sinning. It is on ongoing affair and thus an ongoing and continual sin. The use of the words one time sin are in relation to another posters question about remarriage, in that the question was is the person who committed the adultery committing a continual sin even after the affair is over, the marriage is over. or both....after they remarry a new spouse. The answer was no they are not guilty of continually sinning. The sin they were involved in is over after the new marriage is consumated. It then becomes a one time sin as compared to a sin that is continuous.

When one sins, and repents of that sin, it is not a continual sin. When one is involved in a sinful behavior on a daily or on a consistent basis, then they are continually sinning. The whole idea behind repentance and forgiveness is to stop that sin in your life and seek the forgiveness of those you have harmed or sinned against. It is all about ones character and sincerity.

Now forgiveness doesn't mean that things are going to be 100% ok again. It doesn't mean that there are not consequences still to be met. A man (or woman) who commits adultery and is caught, still must reconcile the marriage. There is a huge trust issue that ensues, and the result may end up in a broken marriage. It may end up in a fixed marriage, although that takes time. Forgiveness is one thing, and immediate, but restoring the relationship is an entirely different issue and may not be possible. Forgiveness doesn't mean you forget what the person did to you. That is impossible. Forgiveness simply means you accept their repentance, their apology, and you give them another chance, and you don't hold it over their head like some sort of club.....but you definitely keep your eye on the situation to see how sincere that person is in their repentance, and trust requires a period of time to rebuild. You are simply giving them the time to rebuild that trust. Now there are situations that would force one to not trust ever again. Take a man who borrows money from a friend, but never repays it and uses the money for stupid things. That friend may forgive him, but he certainly won't loan or give him any more money. That is the consequence to that sin.

Repentance is all about a right relationship with God. It is the same in a marriage. Every marriage has it's ups and downs. We all screw up in some way shape or form with our spouse. No one is perfect, and thus no marriage is perfect either. When couples fight or argue, or have a disagreement, there is a need to resolve that issue with sincerity and good intentions, because you love that person and want things to be ok between you. The result through time is a better relationship as you work through all the kinks. It is a testimony of ones dedication to the marriage. It is a sign of the love for one another to work together to make a good marriage better. So it is with a relationship with God. We all screw up. We all need forgiveness, but...we won't get it by continuing down the road that caused it all. By repenting of ones sin before God, and trying like heck to avoid that sin in the future is a testimony of the sincerity of the relationship one has with God. Face it...we will blow it from time to time, even Christians blow it. But we can do one of two things. We an correct the problem, or we can simply ignore it and continue right on doing it. Tell your spouse that last one and see what kind of marriage will result from it. Not good.

But God does forgive when we repent. How or why can God do that? Because of Jesus Christ. Because of what Jesus did on the cross, We can seek that forgiveness from God and it will be given. Only through Jesus Christ is this possible.

So when you say that we can sin as long as we want and simply ask for forgiveness and all is good, that really isn't the case. It is a matter of ones heart, and their character and their sincerity to the relationship. It requires belief in Jesus Christ, and all he did for us, as a foundation for the forgiveness God gives us when we seek it. Without that, it is moot. Continually and willfully involving oneself in sinful behavior is not the example of a good relationship. It is an example of a wrong relationshp with God and puts one in a situation that jeapardizes ones salvation if not checked. Restoration is key. Repentance is key. But it has to be real.

SpurzN703
06-22-2009, 02:38 PM
I am not sure if you are sincerely interested in an answer but I will answer because I think you represent a common misconception about sin, sinning, repentance and forgiveness.

As to the context of the issue of adultery and remarriage. When one is involved in an adulterous affair - that person is sinning. It is on ongoing affair and thus an ongoing and continual sin. The use of the words one time sin are in relation to another posters question about remarriage, in that the question was is the person who committed the adultery committing a continual sin even after the affair is over, the marriage is over. or both....after they remarry a new spouse. The answer was no they are not guilty of continually sinning. The sin they were involved in is over after the new marriage is consumated. It then becomes a one time sin as compared to a sin that is continuous.

When one sins, and repents of that sin, it is not a continual sin. When one is involved in a sinful behavior on a daily or on a consistent basis, then they are continually sinning. The whole idea behind repentance and forgiveness is to stop that sin in your life and seek the forgiveness of those you have harmed or sinned against. It is all about ones character and sincerity.

Now forgiveness doesn't mean that things are going to be 100% ok again. It doesn't mean that there are not consequences still to be met. A man (or woman) who commits adultery and is caught, still must reconcile the marriage. There is a huge trust issue that ensues, and the result may end up in a broken marriage. It may end up in a fixed marriage, although that takes time. Forgiveness is one thing, and immediate, but restoring the relationship is an entirely different issue and may not be possible. Forgiveness doesn't mean you forget what the person did to you. That is impossible. Forgiveness simply means you accept their repentance, their apology, and you give them another chance, and you don't hold it over their head like some sort of club.....but you definitely keep your eye on the situation to see how sincere that person is in their repentance, and trust requires a period of time to rebuild. You are simply giving them the time to rebuild that trust. Now there are situations that would force one to not trust ever again. Take a man who borrows money from a friend, but never repays it and uses the money for stupid things. That friend may forgive him, but he certainly won't loan or give him any more money. That is the consequence to that sin.

Repentance is all about a right relationship with God. It is the same in a marriage. Every marriage has it's ups and downs. We all screw up in some way shape or form with our spouse. No one is perfect, and thus no marriage is perfect either. When couples fight or argue, or have a disagreement, there is a need to resolve that issue with sincerity and good intentions, because you love that person and want things to be ok between you. The result through time is a better relationship as you work through all the kinks. It is a testimony of ones dedication to the marriage. It is a sign of the love for one another to work together to make a good marriage better. So it is with a relationship with God. We all screw up. We all need forgiveness, but...we won't get it by continuing down the road that caused it all. By repenting of ones sin before God, and trying like heck to avoid that sin in the future is a testimony of the sincerity of the relationship one has with God. Face it...we will blow it from time to time, even Christians blow it. But we can do one of two things. We an correct the problem, or we can simply ignore it and continue right on doing it. Tell your spouse that last one and see what kind of marriage will result from it. Not good.

But God does forgive when we repent. How or why can God do that? Because of Jesus Christ. Because of what Jesus did on the cross, We can seek that forgiveness from God and it will be given. Only through Jesus Christ is this possible.

So when you say that we can sin as long as we want and simply ask for forgiveness and all is good, that really isn't the case. It is a matter of ones heart, and their character and their sincerity to the relationship. It requires belief in Jesus Christ, and all he did for us, as a foundation for the forgiveness God gives us when we seek it. Without that, it is moot. Continually and willfully involving oneself in sinful behavior is not the example of a good relationship. It is an example of a wrong relationshp with God and puts one in a situation that jeapardizes ones salvation if not checked. Restoration is key. Repentance is key. But it has to be real.

The funny thing is I imagine there are religious men out in the world who believe that so long as they ask for forgiveness each time that they can continually cheat on their wives.

Book it

Dolphan7
06-22-2009, 04:45 PM
The funny thing is I imagine there are religious men out in the world who believe that so long as they ask for forgiveness each time that they can continually cheat on their wives.

Book it
LOL. You are right, there are such men, people. That is just the nature of sin. It constantly wears on your conscience, seeking acceptance and justification, and an excuse. Everyone has an excuse to sin. Everyone. Just like every prisoner is innocent. When we begin to rationalize our particular sin, we start down a very dangerous road. It is all about the condition of ones heart. Willfully continuing in sinful behavior removes ones salvation.


Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left...

aesop
06-23-2009, 11:11 AM
As to the context of the issue of adultery and remarriage. When one is involved in an adulterous affair - that person is sinning. It is on ongoing affair and thus an ongoing and continual sin. The use of the words one time sin are in relation to another posters question about remarriage, in that the question was is the person who committed the adultery committing a continual sin even after the affair is over, the marriage is over. or both....after they remarry a new spouse. The answer was no they are not guilty of continually sinning. The sin they were involved in is over after the new marriage is consumated. It then becomes a one time sin as compared to a sin that is continuous.

When one sins, and repents of that sin, it is not a continual sin. When one is involved in a sinful behavior on a daily or on a consistent basis, then they are continually sinning. The whole idea behind repentance and forgiveness is to stop that sin in your life and seek the forgiveness of those you have harmed or sinned against. It is all about ones character and sincerity.So in reality, it is a loose term that can be bent as seen necessary. In most cases, adultery is a not a one time occurrence. It is usually ongoing, or sporadic. But rarely ever not "continuous". This is the type of wording that would create a loophole in law.




I guess it comes down to apologizing (and really meaning it!). http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/06/puppydogeyes83825-1.jpg




Shouldn't god be able to judge these matters without a formal apology? Can't he see if you've learned your lesson and suffered enough or if you truly don't care?

Dolphan7
06-23-2009, 12:20 PM
So in reality, it is a loose term that can be bent as seen necessary. In most cases, adultery is a not a one time occurrence. It is usually ongoing, or sporadic. But rarely ever not "continuous". This is the type of wording that would create a loophole in law. The term continual has nothing to do with the length of the affair. It has everything to do with God allowing divorces to happen, but not putting us into a situation where we are continually committing adultery by remarrying.

God hates divorce, but he allows us to divorce, not because of our needs to divorce, but to protect the victims of divorce. In context to the OT times this was written in, women were divorced from their husbands for the most frivolous of reasons, and were then outcasts in society, not able to remarry and provide for themselves. So Moses was allowed by God to issue a certificate of divorce to these women so they could go on with their lives, remarry and be taken care of. Mankind has since butchered the use of divorce, and marriage for that matter, but that is another topic. Jesus then tells us that even with a divorce not for the reason of infidelity, the spouse who remarries is committing adultery by remarrying. Since God allowed divorce to happen (against his will), he wouldn't then allow us to be continually sinning by remarrying. Thus it is a one time sin, only committed when the new marriage is consumated. God wouldn't put us into a situation where we are continually sinning. That is where the term one time sin comes into play. So if one divorces for reasons other than infidelity, they are committing a sin. If they remarry, they commit another sin. But those are one time sins, not continual. They happen, you repent (stop doing it) and are forgiven.





I guess it comes down to apologizing (and really meaning it!).Yes that is correct. True repentance.





Shouldn't god be able to judge these matters without a formal apology? Can't he see if you've learned your lesson and suffered enough or if you truly don't care?Sure he can. I am not understanding what you mean by formal apology. When I screw up I tell God about it, tell him I am sorry and that I will try not to do it again and if he could please help with that.....not because he needs to know, but because it is a demonstration of my relationship with Him. But when one commits a sin against another human being, then a formal apology is most necessary.

aesop
06-24-2009, 11:42 AM
Since God allowed divorce to happen (against his will), he wouldn't then allow us to be continually sinning by remarrying.

How exactly does god allow something to happen 'against his will'. That's a ridiculous statement. For an all-powerful, all-knowing god to allow something to happen without him wanting to just doesn't make sense.


It has everything to do with God allowing divorces to happen, but not putting us into a situation where we are continually committing adultery by remarrying.

You basically proved my point here. It's a loophole to allow for a common occurrence to not affect one's acceptance with the church.

SpurzN703
06-24-2009, 12:05 PM
Well God lets hurricanes, tornadoes, tidal waves and other disastrous **** happen, why not allow divorces?

Dolphan7
06-24-2009, 12:05 PM
How exactly does god allow something to happen 'against his will'. That's a ridiculous statement. For an all-powerful, all-knowing god to allow something to happen without him wanting to just doesn't make sense. Free Will. If we didn't have free will, then God would simply make all of us worship him without any say so. Having free will to choose God or not means that some will reject God and do things against God's will. He doesn't prefer that we do that, but it is our choice. God wants us to choose him on our own, not because he makes us or chooses for us. What kind of love would that be?




You basically proved my point here. It's a loophole to allow for a common occurrence to not affect one's acceptance with the church.Not exactly sure what your point actually is....but we are all sinners, even those who go to church. If your point is that we can willfully continue to involve ourselves in sin and think that we are going to heaven....think again.


Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

aesop
06-24-2009, 03:29 PM
Well God lets hurricanes, tornadoes, tidal waves and other disastrous **** happen, why not allow divorces?So inadament objects have free will too? Or god sends these gifts to us?

SoJoMike
06-24-2009, 07:33 PM
... If your point is that we can willfully continue to involve ourselves in sin and think that we are going to heaven....think again.

Just so I understand this: In an earlier post you stated "When I screw up I tell God about it, tell him I am sorry and that I will try not to do it again and if he could please help with that....."

So are you ignorantly screwing up, or do you know exactly what you are doing and screwing up anyway, knowing that you can simply ask forgiveness and "really mean it"? If you know what you are doing when you screw up, you are not going to heaven by your first quote. If you don't know what you are doing, then how do you know to ask for forgiveness? (Although I suspect you were referring to instances of the first scenario, the Christian rule book is fairly simple from what I remember, how could you not know?)

Dolphan7
06-25-2009, 12:50 AM
Just so I understand this: In an earlier post you stated "When I screw up I tell God about it, tell him I am sorry and that I will try not to do it again and if he could please help with that....."

So are you ignorantly screwing up, or do you know exactly what you are doing and screwing up anyway, knowing that you can simply ask forgiveness and "really mean it"? If you know what you are doing when you screw up, you are not going to heaven by your first quote. If you don't know what you are doing, then how do you know to ask for forgiveness? (Although I suspect you were referring to instances of the first scenario, the Christian rule book is fairly simple from what I remember, how could you not know?)Great question and line of thought.

It all boils down to consistency. Christians will consistently live right for God, and inconsistently sin. It isn't a matter of being in or out of heaven every time one sins. It isn't a game one plays with God - hey I am in because I haven't sinned today....oops I am out because I told a lie. It isn't like that. God doesn't expect us to be perfect. He expects us to be committed to Him. We don't do that naturally, or overnight. I have been a christian for almost 20 years. I did some things after I first got saved that were not good things to do. I still had the trappings of the world in my life. But over time I shed those habits, lifestyles, addictions....whatever they are or whatever one likes to call them. Baby steps. When one is saved it isn't like you stop every bad habit you have in one day. Try to stop smoking in one day. Most can't. It takes time and is a process.

There are things we do consciously. There is a road on my way to church that has a speed limit of 25 miles per hour. I try to drive at that limit, but there are times that I haven't. It should be 35!!! But the law says otherwise. I am not perfect. Good christian people make mistakes just like everyone else. Mark Sanford just admitted cheating on his wife, and there are numerous examples of good christian men stumbling in some area or another. Happens all the time. But Jesus tells us that we cannot serve two masters. Not for long. If one stumbles and takes the neccesary actions to prevent or stop doing whatever sin he is involved in, then that is growth and progress along the path that Jesus desires of us. If one stumbles and doesn't do what it takes to avoid or stop that particular sin in his life, then he will probably do it again...and again....and again....to the point that he will stop living right for God and continue living in sin away from God.

I have seen it with my own eyes. A man goes to my church. He gets plugged in, gets baptized, lives right for God....but still hangs onto some sort of sin in his life. That could be an adulterous affair....pornography, alcoholism, or just promiscousnous (if single). Eventually one of two things happen. He desides to really come clean and get some help with his problem, his sin, and eventually conquers it. Or he desides that he doesn't want to, or can't, stop the sin and ends up leaving the church. Can't do both for very long. Something has to give. Happens all the time.

Are we constantly striving to live right, and occasionally stumble, or are we living the wrong way and occasionally trying to live right for God. It is all about consistency. God doesn't expect us to be perfect. But God does expect us to grow spiritually. We need to be constantly thinking right and acting right and avoiding those things that will cause us to screw up. We need to know our own weaknesses. We all have them. Once you identify your weakness toward a particular sin, then you take the steps to avoid the onramps that will eventually lead you to that sin. God doesn't expect us to be perfect. One needs to be a student before one becomes a teacher. As long as we are growing in Christ and not the world.

So if one willfully sins are they going to heaven? Yes if the person is really serious about their repentence and is doing all they need to do to avoid that particular sin in their life.....and....... No if that sin is a part of their life and they are not trying to overcome it and don't think it is a problem, or don't think it is a sin, or refuse to believe it is a sin.

It is all about a right heart and a right relationship with God. It is all about being consistent.

Take Michael Jordan. He lived his basketball life trying to be the best he could be. He did everything he could to grow and improve his game...and keep it there. He didn't start out as great as he ended up did he? He wasn't perfect either, but he was consistently great at what he did. Then you take a guy like Ryan Leaf. Had the talent at the beginning, had a good start...then didn't do what he needed to do to become even better and eventually washed out.

Edit:I forgot to add this at the end:

Since we are not perfect, we will stumble from time to time. When we are living right for God we are growing spiritually, when we stumble....Jesus covers us. It is kinda like insurance. Because of what he did on the cross we have that coverage. Because we put our faith and belief in Jesus we are covered. It isn't to be abused though. Consistently abusing Jesus' gift will revoke our salvation as Hebrews 10:26 says. Those who have not accepted Jesus, are not covered at all. Got to believe in Jesus to get the insurance.

SpurzN703
06-25-2009, 11:10 AM
So inadament objects have free will too? Or god sends these gifts to us?

I dunno but if God created everything, he certainly created natural disasters. How is that fair for the ones who die b/c of this?

aesop
06-25-2009, 11:12 AM
Are we constantly striving to live right, and occasionally stumble, or are we living the wrong way and occasionally trying to live right for God. It is all about consistency. God doesn't expect us to be perfect. But God does expect us to grow spiritually.So where is this line drawn?

SpurzN703
06-25-2009, 11:16 AM
This all just seems so unfortunate to me. You either have faith or you don't and that's what gets you in Heaven. Some people are looking for proof that all of this is real but it doesn't seem like that will ever happen.

Sure some in here say that everyday is a blessing and that certain things throughout their day is proof of God right in the pudding (literally sometimes). But that isn't enough for other people. Some choose to not blindly follow something that isn't provable.

I hope Heaven exists b/c it sounds great. It just is unfortunate that we'll only find out if it exists until after we pass on.

Dolphan7
06-25-2009, 12:02 PM
I dunno but if God created everything, he certainly created natural disasters. How is that fair for the ones who die b/c of this?God didn't create natural disasters in the original earth He created in Gen 1. Natural disasters are a result of sin entering the world and starting a slow decay process that ultimately ends in death. God will restore things to it's proper place at some point in the future, but until then.....


RO 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Dolphan7
06-25-2009, 12:04 PM
So where is this line drawn?I don't know. I am not God. All I do know is I want to be as far away from that line so that it leaves no doubt. Each man needs to be responsible for himself.

Dolphan7
06-25-2009, 12:06 PM
This all just seems so unfortunate to me. You either have faith or you don't and that's what gets you in Heaven. Some people are looking for proof that all of this is real but it doesn't seem like that will ever happen.

Sure some in here say that everyday is a blessing and that certain things throughout their day is proof of God right in the pudding (literally sometimes). But that isn't enough for other people. Some choose to not blindly follow something that isn't provable.

I hope Heaven exists b/c it sounds great. It just is unfortunate that we'll only find out if it exists until after we pass on.God sent His only Son to earth to die for our sins, a perfect sacrifice that now allows all of us to connect with God through the blood of Jesus Christ.

What more proof does one need?

SpurzN703
06-25-2009, 01:04 PM
God sent His only Son to earth to die for our sins, a perfect sacrifice that now allows all of us to connect with God through the blood of Jesus Christ.

What more proof does one need?

Well there's no video of that happening, or photos. Right?


God didn't create natural disasters in the original earth He created in Gen 1. Natural disasters are a result of sin entering the world and starting a slow decay process that ultimately ends in death. God will restore things to it's proper place at some point in the future, but until then.....

So tornadoes are sin that entered the world from where?

Dolphan7
06-25-2009, 01:25 PM
Well there's no video of that happening, or photos. Right?
Recorded in the Gospels. Best known method known to man at the time.



So tornadoes are sin that entered the world from where?They are a "result" of sin that entered the world through the Fall....Gen 3. Actually tornadoes and earthquakes and the like probably didn't start happening until after the flood, when the entire earth eco-system and weather patterns were changed as a result of the flood, but it all starts back in Gen 3.

SpurzN703
06-25-2009, 02:55 PM
Recorded in the Gospels. Best known method known to man at the time.


They are a "result" of sin that entered the world through the Fall....Gen 3. Actually tornadoes and earthquakes and the like probably didn't start happening until after the flood, when the entire earth eco-system and weather patterns were changed as a result of the flood, but it all starts back in Gen 3.

Ok, I'm wondering. The folks who are killed in these natural disasters, is there an explanation as to why it was their destiny?

Dolphan7
06-25-2009, 03:16 PM
Ok, I'm wondering. The folks who are killed in these natural disasters, is there an explanation as to why it was their destiny?Only that we live in a broken and fallen world, the result of sin, and bad things happen to people. God isn't directing traffic. He isn't deciding who will die in this storm and who will die in that car accident. We simply live in a fallen world and it is chaotic and bad things will happen. What is important isn't how long or short our life on earth is, but what we do with that life while we have it.

SoJoMike
06-25-2009, 08:25 PM
I have seen it with my own eyes. A man goes to my church. He gets plugged in, gets baptized, lives right for God....but still hangs onto some sort of sin in his life. That could be an adulterous affair....pornography, alcoholism, or just promiscousnous (if single).

How is pornography, alcoholism or having promiscuous sex sin? They are mutually exclusive (in some cases), so I'd appreciate an explanation for each.

Dolphan7
06-25-2009, 10:07 PM
How is pornography, alcoholism or having promiscuous sex sin? They are mutually exclusive (in some cases), so I'd appreciate an explanation for each.LOL. I have no idea what you mean by mutually exclusive.

Pornography = Lust.

Alcoholism = Drunkeness

Promiscuity = sex before marriage.

All biblical sins.

You didn't know that?

SoJoMike
06-26-2009, 03:24 AM
LOL. I have no idea what you mean by mutually exclusive.

Pornography = Lust.

Alcoholism = Drunkeness

Promiscuity = sex before marriage.

All biblical sins.

You didn't know that?


By mutually exclusive, I just meant they are not necessarily carried out by the same individual, or have any dependency (other than what I believe to be the same underlying cause). So a person who overindulges in alcohol doesn't necessarily overindulge in sex (I am going by the Orwellian definition here, please forgive), etc... I don't have the bible memorized, and I know these are things that christians consider immoral, but I was curious what the bible specifically said about these things, specifically and individually. All of these are things that some people, due to a "deviation" in hormone levels or chemical reactions, (over)indulge in. That is the underlying impetus. One could try to argue this, but to think that anyone wants to engage in behavior that can have such devestating consequences due to unfettered rational thought is ludicrous...and this is well covered territory in the behavioral/health field. Where I am going with this is that, from my experience, christians don't believe overindulgence in food to be a sin, but it has the same underlying cause. If it is a sin (gluttony?), then Jerry Falwell may as well cancel his membership.

SoJoMike
06-26-2009, 04:28 AM
Recorded in the Gospels. Best known method known to man at the time.

...and fortunately for all of us, this is a completely infallible method.

I don't remember how old I was, but on one occasion I overheard my Mom say "Believe nothing you hear, half of what you read and all that you see." It wasn't directed at me, but the ironic thing to me was she said this right after church in the car while we were waiting for my Dad to be done socializing. So I asked her which half of the bible I should believe. She didn't share my appreciation of the irony.

Dolphan7
06-26-2009, 11:08 AM
By mutually exclusive, I just meant they are not necessarily carried out by the same individual, or have any dependency (other than what I believe to be the same underlying cause). So a person who overindulges in alcohol doesn't necessarily overindulge in sex (I am going by the Orwellian definition here, please forgive)Umm.......ever been to college, or been on a college campus? Drunkeness, sex and pornography are a staple at most campuses, many times carried out by the exact same individual x 10000.






I don't have the bible memorized, and I know these are things that christians consider immoral, but I was curious what the bible specifically said about these things, specifically and individually. All of these are things that some people, due to a "deviation" in hormone levels or chemical reactions, (over)indulge in. That is the underlying impetus. One could try to argue this, but to think that anyone wants to engage in behavior that can have such devestating consequences due to unfettered rational thought is ludicrous...and this is well covered territory in the behavioral/health field. Where I am going with this is that, from my experience, christians don't believe overindulgence in food to be a sin, but it has the same underlying cause. If it is a sin (gluttony?), then Jerry Falwell may as well cancel his membership.There is a danger in this line of thought. The premis is that there is something inborn and inherited that is out of ones control, and therefore is leads to lack of responsibility and accountability for the sins that result from it. Then all the bad people that commit murders and other heinous crimes must have had some sort of malfunction and therefore are excused from their actions. I know you aren't saying this, but this thought process does lead one down that path, and it is a dangerous path.

Christians do consider gluttony to be a sin.

Dolphan7
06-26-2009, 11:11 AM
...and fortunately for all of us, this is a completely infallible method.

I don't remember how old I was, but on one occasion I overheard my Mom say "Believe nothing you hear, half of what you read and all that you see." It wasn't directed at me, but the ironic thing to me was she said this right after church in the car while we were waiting for my Dad to be done socializing. So I asked her which half of the bible I should believe. She didn't share my appreciation of the irony.

Hmmmm......

"......believe ....all that you see....."

Now apply that to the eye witnesses of Jesus Christ, who wrote down what they saw.

I am sure you'll appreciate the irony.

aesop
06-26-2009, 12:15 PM
Only that we live in a broken and fallen world, the result of sin, and bad things happen to people. God isn't directing traffic. He isn't deciding who will die in this storm and who will die in that car accident. We simply live in a fallen world and it is chaotic and bad things will happen. What is important isn't how long or short our life on earth is, but what we do with that life while we have it.So the all-powerful being that created everything we know and need cannot direct traffic? I guess he's as incompetent as our worldly leaders.

You know, people give credit to god whenever something good happens: ("Thank you god for this bountiful meal", "Thank you god for giving me the power to ______", "Thank you god for helping my favorite sports team win the championship" etc)... But when anything unfavorable happens, god had nothing to do with it. Sounds like our world leaders, once again. Almost like it was thought out by past leaders looking for the same thing the people who rule our country today look for. Credit for the good and passing the blame for the bad.

SpurzN703
06-26-2009, 12:20 PM
Only that we live in a broken and fallen world, the result of sin, and bad things happen to people. God isn't directing traffic. He isn't deciding who will die in this storm and who will die in that car accident. We simply live in a fallen world and it is chaotic and bad things will happen. What is important isn't how long or short our life on earth is, but what we do with that life while we have it.

I understand that God isn't controlling that but if these things are results of sin, it is unfair for the people to die of this (those who don't sin/I'm sure there are people out there who don't sin).

SpurzN703
06-26-2009, 12:23 PM
So the all-powerful being that created everything we know and need cannot direct traffic? I guess he's as incompetent as our worldly leaders.

You know, people give credit to god whenever something good happens: ("Thank you god for this bountiful meal", "Thank you god for giving me the power to ______", "Thank you god for helping my favorite sports team win the championship" etc)... But when anything unfavorable happens, god had nothing to do with it. Sounds like our world leaders, once again. Almost like it was thought out by past leaders looking for the same thing the people who rule our country today look for. Credit for the good and passing the blame for the bad.

I've also heard before that if something bad happens, then the explanation was that it's just God's way.

Dolphan7
06-26-2009, 12:34 PM
So the all-powerful being that created everything we know and need cannot direct traffic? I guess he's as incompetent as our worldly leaders.

You know, people give credit to god whenever something good happens: ("Thank you god for this bountiful meal", "Thank you god for giving me the power to ______", "Thank you god for helping my favorite sports team win the championship" etc)... But when anything unfavorable happens, god had nothing to do with it. Sounds like our world leaders, once again. Almost like it was thought out by past leaders looking for the same thing the people who rule our country today look for. Credit for the good and passing the blame for the bad.I have heard the same things. Just boils down to the fact that people don't have the right understanding of what God is, what his attributes are, how he interacts with us etc......

If you think God is incompetent, then you really don't have a proper understanding of God...or maybe....and this is my opinion here....you really don't care one way or the other and your posts are simply meant to be argumentative and not introspective.

Dolphan7
06-26-2009, 12:37 PM
I understand that God isn't controlling that but if these things are results of sin, it is unfair for the people to die of this (those who don't sin/I'm sure there are people out there who don't sin).Actually that is not true. The bible tells us that all have sinned and therefore come short of the Glory of God. Why else would we need Jesus?


RO 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

SpurzN703
06-26-2009, 02:36 PM
Actually that is not true. The bible tells us that all have sinned and therefore come short of the Glory of God. Why else would we need Jesus?

So everybody sins whether they like it or not and they have to ask for forgiveness for these set in stone sins or else?

Dolphan7
06-26-2009, 02:47 PM
So everybody sins whether they like it or not and they have to ask for forgiveness for these set in stone sins or else?Everyone sins whether they "know" it or not. You don't "have" to do anything. It is your choice. You can choose to accept God's free gift - Jesus Christ - or not.

The choice is yours.

SoJoMike
06-26-2009, 07:42 PM
There is a danger in this line of thought. The premis is that there is something inborn and inherited that is out of ones control, and therefore is leads to lack of responsibility and accountability for the sins that result from it. Then all the bad people that commit murders and other heinous crimes must have had some sort of malfunction and therefore are excused from their actions. I know you aren't saying this, but this thought process does lead one down that path, and it is a dangerous path.

Isn't it one thing to break the laws of a society and be forced to accept a punishment within that framework (absolutely required), and yet another to be tortured for all eternity by a "loving" God because, by design, you (we) lack the perfect balance of serotonin to make decisions unencumbered by the need for emotional comfort? The implied assertion by this thread's creator is God is not "loving" because his children are cast to hell if they don't possess the wherewithall to see his glory and collapse in a heap of unworthiness at his feet (my own interpretation, yes). Isn't the christian God VENGEFUL? Jealous? Doesn't this conflict with loving? Is it an impromptu convenience devised by christians that God is not responsible for designing a species that can't withstand whatever it is you'd blame our deviations on (satan, Eve)?

SoJoMike
06-26-2009, 07:47 PM
Hmmmm......

"......believe ....all that you see....."

Now apply that to the eye witnesses of Jesus Christ, who wrote down what they saw.

I am sure you'll appreciate the irony.


?????

I would still be READING this in the bible, no? I haven't seen what has been WRITTEN, yes? Does anyone else see the irony (other than you reiterating my original post), because I think I am missing the irony you are enjoying?

Dolphan7
06-26-2009, 08:13 PM
Isn't it one thing to break the laws of a society and be forced to accept a punishment within that framework (absolutely required), and yet another to be tortured for all eternity by a "loving" God because, by design, you (we) lack the perfect balance of serotonin to make decisions unencumbered by the need for emotional comfort? The implied assertion by this thread's creator is God is not "loving" because his children are cast to hell if they don't possess the wherewithall to see his glory and collapse in a heap of unworthiness at his feet (my own interpretation, yes). Isn't the christian God VENGEFUL? Jealous? Doesn't this conflict with loving? Is it an impromptu convenience devised by christians that God is not responsible for designing a species that can't withstand whatever it is you'd blame our deviations on (satan, Eve)?But the God of love would give you every opportunity to avoid that eternal suffering wouldn't he?


...And he did.

Now the choice is up to each individual. You can accept or reject that love, that gift, that free gift that is undeserved.

If you reject it, then you can explain to God that it was the serotonin. I am sure he will understand.

God is responsible for our creation, no doubt, but that creation also includes free will. God is also a God of justice. When a wrong has occured, there needs to be justice. Sin happened, God demands justice just like we demand justice when we have been wronged. Otherwise we would all be saved no matter what, and there would be no such thing as responsibility.

Dolphan7
06-26-2009, 08:31 PM
?????

I would still be READING this in the bible, no? I haven't seen what has been WRITTEN, yes? Does anyone else see the irony (other than you reiterating my original post), because I think I am missing the irony you are enjoying?Did you witness the holocaust yourself? But you accept that it happened because those who did see it, wrote down and recorded what they saw. All of history is based on the written record. First hand eyewitness is one of the cornerstones of our criminal justice system.

I think it is funny that we accept so much from the past, yet when it comes to the bible........crickets.

Not to take this off course here, but It is even more funny that a modern "scientist" claims that based on a pile of bones that a creature lived several million years ago, walked upright, ate plants etc......and we accept that with no questions......yet when men record actual history from just 2000 years ago....we deny it ever happened.......sounds a lot to me like subjective bias.

This is my opinion.... because I have been debating this very same subject matter for years.....that people reject the bible not because of the reasons given....but because it's the truth. People can't handle the truth. Because if God Jesus and the bible is the real deal...then a lot of people are doing a lot of things that are going to get them in a lot of trouble. Here is another way of looking at it. People have things in their life they don't want to get rid of. So they convince themselves that it is ok to continue to keep those things in their life. They don't want to change and conform, they want it their way...and therefore any attempt to explain to them otherwise is met with fierce opposition.

I leave with an old saying.

I would rather live my life believing there is a God, and finding out there isn't.....

.....than live my life as if there is no God and finding out there really is.

SoJoMike
06-26-2009, 10:08 PM
Did you witness the holocaust yourself? But you accept that it happened because those who did see it, wrote down and recorded what they saw. All of history is based on the written record. First hand eyewitness is one of the cornerstones of our criminal justice system.

I think it is funny that we accept so much from the past, yet when it comes to the bible........crickets.

Not to take this off course here, but It is even more funny that a modern "scientist" claims that based on a pile of bones that a creature lived several million years ago, walked upright, ate plants etc......and we accept that with no questions......yet when men record actual history from just 2000 years ago....we deny it ever happened.......sounds a lot to me like subjective bias.

This is my opinion.... because I have been debating this very same subject matter for years.....that people reject the bible not because of the reasons given....but because it's the truth. People can't handle the truth. Because if God Jesus and the bible is the real deal...then a lot of people are doing a lot of things that are going to get them in a lot of trouble. Here is another way of looking at it. People have things in their life they don't want to get rid of. So they convince themselves that it is ok to continue to keep those things in their life. They don't want to change and conform, they want it their way...and therefore any attempt to explain to them otherwise is met with fierce opposition.

I leave with an old saying.

I would rather live my life believing there is a God, and finding out there isn't.....

.....than live my life as if there is no God and finding out there really is.

I am only asking questions here, this isn't fierce opposition by any means. And I am not, nor are others, basing our entire existence and purpose in life on whether the holocaust occurred, or whether dinosaurs existed. I don't see how you draw a parallel there. There is no intellectual or spiritual gain in questioning the holocaust. A set of books that claims God is love, but God is vengeful and will make you suffer if you don't do things that are against your nature is just plain suspicious. It begs to be questioned. There better be a real good reason to accept a philosophy that embraces intolerance and provides a path to eternal damnation -- for those that, for no other reason than circumstance (e.g., being born into and indoctrinated in alternative religion from a young age), don't accept "Jesus as their personal Lord and savior" -- or I am not going to subscribe to it. Everyone has their reasons for why their religion is the true path to salvation, it is convenient for them. History is written by the winners. Is the bible you hold in your hands free of tamper? You don't know, but the winners, those with the power to tamper, omit, etc...., over the thousands of years it has been in existence, they know. The "no questions asked" club just wants this all to be easy. No questions asked is a brain washing. People don't want the truth??? That is exactly why people ask questions. We aren't computers to be programmed. We program ourselves by gathering information. If you consider this and the subject matter we are discussing, the answers to these questions are of the utmost importance, so "being true" is not as important as "ringing true" because the truth is unprovable.

Dolphan7
06-27-2009, 02:49 AM
I am only asking questions here, this isn't fierce opposition by any means. And I am not, nor are others, basing our entire existence and purpose in life on whether the holocaust occurred, or whether dinosaurs existed. I don't see how you draw a parallel there. There is no intellectual or spiritual gain in questioning the holocaust. A set of books that claims God is love, but God is vengeful and will make you suffer if you don't do things that are against your nature is just plain suspicious. It begs to be questioned. There better be a real good reason to accept a philosophy that embraces intolerance and provides a path to eternal damnation -- for those that, for no other reason than circumstance (e.g., being born into and indoctrinated in alternative religion from a young age), don't accept "Jesus as their personal Lord and savior" -- or I am not going to subscribe to it. Everyone has their reasons for why their religion is the true path to salvation, it is convenient for them. History is written by the winners. Is the bible you hold in your hands free of tamper? You don't know, but the winners, those with the power to tamper, omit, etc...., over the thousands of years it has been in existence, they know. The "no questions asked" club just wants this all to be easy. No questions asked is a brain washing. People don't want the truth??? That is exactly why people ask questions. We aren't computers to be programmed. We program ourselves by gathering information. If you consider this and the subject matter we are discussing, the answers to these questions are of the utmost importance, so "being true" is not as important as "ringing true" because the truth is unprovable.No I don't think I was meaning you are fierce opposition. You are a fairly reasonable poster and I appreciate the dialogue with you. You definitely keep me on my toes. If this were easy, everyone would be a believer.

I understand your points. They are well taken. I guess people just can't get over the possibility that if God exists, then He gets to set the rules, not us. If God exists, and I believe that he does with every fiber in my being, then he gets to set the rules anyway he wants. Why can't he stand sin? Why does there have to be punishment for sin? Why can't he just allow it? All good questions and all asked by me once upon a time. There are some things I will have to ask God about when I see him. There are those things that you will want to ask him when you see him also. The bottom line is everyone needs to decide for himself if the God of the bible is the real deal. If one believes he isn't, then this is a short conversation. But if one believes he is, then they need to also decide what they are going to do with that from this point forward.

You made the following statement, but I changed it to reflect the meaning from Gods perspective. I bolded the word I changed.

A set of books that claims God is love, but God is vengeful and will make you suffer if you don't do things that are against His nature is just plain suspicious.

You are making the claim, again, that we have an excuse to sin. God didn't create us with sin. He didn't make us sinful. He doesn't make us sinful. Yet we all are sinful. Where did it come from? More importantly, we do have the capacity to resist temptations and show self restraint. Just because society tells you that it is ok to eat, drink, fornicate, lust, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, gamble, become addicted to substances.......doesn't mean that it is ok or natural. Where do you draw the line? Is murder wrong? Not according to some Islamic Fundamentalists? Not to some members of the most vicious gangs in Los Angeles? Is sex with children ok? Hey we just witnessed the death on one guy that thought it was ok to sleep with children, and they thought it was ok to sleep with a 45 year old man!! And he was acquited!!! We as a society are morally bankrupt. We have lost our ability to blush. We don't get appaled at such things. We sink deeper and deeper into moral relativism and ineptitude. Eventually we won't be able to determine right and wrong, or right from wrong. How does that happen you may ask? Simply look back at the 1950's and the typical American family. One father, one mother, one marriage, all children biologically from the same parents. Look at the dress, the respect for authority, language and attitude. now compare that to today's families. Many families are mixed families, with parents on their second or third marriage, bringing in kids from previous spouses. They dress like little sluts. The language is atrocious. And the respect for authority isn't even there. Their morality is defined by television, peers, music, magazines, movies etc....not parents it seems. Suicide is on the rise. Have we not given our kids a better outlook on life that would prevent them from killing themselves? All this isn't natural. It is the result of taking God out of the picture and replacing it with man made rules. These things are not against our nature, but against God's nature, and he doesn't like it, and won't permit it.

One of the best evidences of God is the presence of an absolute morality, an absolute truth. God places that morality in our hearts. Everyone knows, or feels, or believes... that murder is wrong, or that hurting and victimizing another is wrong and when it happens there needs to be justice, payment, retribution etc....But as I mentioned above, there are certain individuals who believe murder to be ok. You would say well that is wrong we have laws.....well ......tell that to the 911 terrorists. They don't care about our laws or our morality. Tell that to the gangs of LA. Tell that to the Hells Angels. You see....without an absolute morality...there is no way we can state what morality should be. There is no way we can establish an absolute morality. Yet it is there, this aughtness. This inborn feeling or sense of right and wrong. No one really states the standard, but everyone appeals to some standard of morality that is already there. Man didn't create it, because he can't. Therefore it must come from God. I am probably not explaining it the best way, but there is a book you should read that will explain it in great detail exactly what I am talking about. I highly recommend it. Frances A Schaeffer - The God Who Is There.

SoJoMike
06-27-2009, 09:08 AM
You are making the claim, again, that we have an excuse to sin. God didn't create us with sin. He didn't make us sinful. He doesn't make us sinful. Yet we all are sinful. Where did it come from? More importantly, we do have the capacity to resist temptations and show self restraint. Just because society tells you that it is ok to eat, drink, fornicate, lust, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, gamble, become addicted to substances.......doesn't mean that it is ok or natural. Where do you draw the line? Is murder wrong? Not according to some Islamic Fundamentalists? Not to some members of the most vicious gangs in Los Angeles? Is sex with children ok? Hey we just witnessed the death on one guy that thought it was ok to sleep with children, and they thought it was ok to sleep with a 45 year old man!! And he was acquited!!! We as a society are morally bankrupt. We have lost our ability to blush. We don't get appaled at such things. We sink deeper and deeper into moral relativism and ineptitude. Eventually we won't be able to determine right and wrong, or right from wrong. How does that happen you may ask? Simply look back at the 1950's and the typical American family. One father, one mother, one marriage, all children biologically from the same parents. Look at the dress, the respect for authority, language and attitude. now compare that to today's families. Many families are mixed families, with parents on their second or third marriage, bringing in kids from previous spouses. They dress like little sluts. The language is atrocious. And the respect for authority isn't even there. Their morality is defined by television, peers, music, magazines, movies etc....not parents it seems. Suicide is on the rise. Have we not given our kids a better outlook on life that would prevent them from killing themselves? All this isn't natural. It is the result of taking God out of the picture and replacing it with man made rules. These things are not against our nature, but against God's nature, and he doesn't like it, and won't permit it.

One of the best evidences of God is the presence of an absolute morality, an absolute truth. God places that morality in our hearts.

Absolutely, there are unacceptable deviations from ideal behavior. But isn't there a difference between making the person next to you uncomfortable and causing them irreparable harm? Where do you draw the line between these 2 things? Clearly sex with kids, committing murder, etc... totally not OK. I say clearly because is there any place in the world that these things are not against the law? Having sex with someone who is not your spouse, dressing like a slut, cussing people, a sin? (???) Against the law? Not in this country (because government is not based on religion?). Without taste? Yes. Being gay or bisexual a sin? Apparently a sin. These latter examples, while a possible path to worse things if practiced by an irresponsible person, are things that hurt no one in and of themselves. But they make some people feel uncomfortable (those that wrote and subscribe to the bible?).......and you burn in hell for them. Coincidence? Everything we do carries the risk of causing harm another person on some level. Breathing someone else's air, for instance. Where DO you draw the line for what is moral? It's a great question. Is there a reasonable place in the middle, or does it have to be an absolute distopia, complete with thought police and an ever present Big Brother no can see, but always fear? Does it have to be moral anarchy? Neither end is acceptable in my opinon and the parts of the bible that seem to be focused on, again in my opinion, strongly gravitates toward the first.

aesop
06-27-2009, 10:51 AM
Everyone sins whether they "know" it or not. You don't "have" to do anything. It is your choice. You can choose to accept God's free gift - Jesus Christ - or not.

The choice is yours.There's usually a catch with free gifts :lol:

aesop
06-27-2009, 11:04 AM
Did you witness the holocaust yourself? But you accept that it happened because those who did see it, wrote down and recorded what they saw. All of history is based on the written record. First hand eyewitness is one of the cornerstones of our criminal justice system.

I think it is funny that we accept so much from the past, yet when it comes to the bible........crickets.

Not to take this off course here, but It is even more funny that a modern "scientist" claims that based on a pile of bones that a creature lived several million years ago, walked upright, ate plants etc......and we accept that with no questions......yet when men record actual history from just 2000 years ago....we deny it ever happened.......sounds a lot to me like subjective bias.
There is photographic evidence, physical evidence, as well as people that are still alive that were in the holocaust. Can you say the same about anything from the bible?

The bible provides nothing but words. Words from thousands of years ago when the common idea was that the world was flat and the universe revolved around Earth. Deductions are made about dinosaurs based on similar bone structures to animals alive today, and common sense. The tiny arms of a T-Rex obviously could not have been used for walking (etc). We already had a carbon dating debate so I won't even bother over here with that.

It's not like there's just a group of 12 people looking at dinosaurs and deducing what they likely looked like and how they survived. There are hundreds of thousands of people that bounce ideas off each other based on tangible facts to come to conclusions. They never claim to be 100% sure like the bible does. They are scientific conclusions using scientific guidelines to come to them.

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 08:23 PM
Absolutely, there are unacceptable deviations from ideal behavior. But isn't there a difference between making the person next to you uncomfortable and causing them irreparable harm? Where do you draw the line between these 2 things? Clearly sex with kids, committing murder, etc... totally not OK. I say clearly because is there any place in the world that these things are not against the law? Having sex with someone who is not your spouse, dressing like a slut, cussing people, a sin? (???) Against the law? Not in this country (because government is not based on religion?). Without taste? Yes. Being gay or bisexual a sin? Apparently a sin. These latter examples, while a possible path to worse things if practiced by an irresponsible person, are things that hurt no one in and of themselves. But they make some people feel uncomfortable (those that wrote and subscribe to the bible?).......and you burn in hell for them. Coincidence? Everything we do carries the risk of causing harm another person on some level. Breathing someone else's air, for instance. Where DO you draw the line for what is moral? It's a great question. Is there a reasonable place in the middle, or does it have to be an absolute distopia, complete with thought police and an ever present Big Brother no can see, but always fear? Does it have to be moral anarchy? Neither end is acceptable in my opinon and the parts of the bible that seem to be focused on, again in my opinion, strongly gravitates toward the first.Laws and government are meant to protect us from others, primarily, so that we all don't kill each other. It prevents chaos. Then there is morality. Laws and government however don't dictate morality. Morailty is up to the individual. Morality is absolute. It has to be. Otherwise we get people who think sex with children is ok, and when a group of idividuals get together in like mind, laws become torn down and modified. Take homosexuality, a clearly moral issue. Yet where once this was a crime and it was unthinkable that it could ever become legal, let alone be considered just as moral as heterosexuality....yet here we are today with that exact thing. This is because people reject absolute morality, which must come from God, and replace it with relative morality, ever changing over time, which comes from man.

Don't think that because something is lawful, that one should participate in it. And don't think that if something is unlawful, that one day it won't become legal. I say this because there are are two forces on a collision course in regards to child sex. We are ever pushing back the age of innocence in this world. Teaching children at ever younger and younger ages about sex. This exposes them to things they are not ready for, but will undoutedly have to learn how to deal with the best they can. This is also combined with the ever present childrens rights movement that seek to emancipate children and take them away from their parents control, to be raised by the state in affect. We see small signs of this beginning. The second movement is the push to legalize consentual sex with minors. This starts by homosexual liasons promoted by groups such as the North American /Man/Boy/Love/Association - NAMBLA. Check out this pathetic group of individuals. It starts there, and when you have an ever changing man made morality, the future is whetever one wants it to be, just give it time.

So where do you draw the line? You either accept God's absolute morality, or you resign yourself to a lifetime of ever changing morals that society will place on you. Now you could adopt a set of morals for yourself to live by, and try to teach those to your kids. But you would have no foundation to say that your morals are any better than the next guy. And to keep your kids from the values and morality of society, well...you would have to lock them up in the basement forever. Very unrealistic.

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 08:30 PM
There is photographic evidence, physical evidence, as well as people that are still alive that were in the holocaust. Can you say the same about anything from the bible?

The bible provides nothing but words. Words from thousands of years ago when the common idea was that the world was flat and the universe revolved around Earth. Deductions are made about dinosaurs based on similar bone structures to animals alive today, and common sense. The tiny arms of a T-Rex obviously could not have been used for walking (etc). We already had a carbon dating debate so I won't even bother over here with that.

It's not like there's just a group of 12 people looking at dinosaurs and deducing what they likely looked like and how they survived. There are hundreds of thousands of people that bounce ideas off each other based on tangible facts to come to conclusions. They never claim to be 100% sure like the bible does. They are scientific conclusions using scientific guidelines to come to them.Yes I can. Because when biblical events happened, there were people still alive to write it down. We have the written record of it. We also have archeological evidence that supports biblical events. Lot's of archeology.

We have the written record of many events in the ancient world. We accept them, why not the bible? Granted there was no cameras and tape recorders and movie cameras back then, but the best methods of recording history were available and used back then. How else would we know anything prior to the 19th century?

I just find it odd that we accept historical records of everything else in history, except the biblical events as recorded in the bible. That is simply intellectual dishonesty.

SoJoMike
07-09-2009, 08:59 PM
I am not sure about homosexuality ever being unlawful in this country, I'd be interested in seeing some proof of that. But I don't underestimate people's ability to discriminate against others who are different. It used to be illegal for black people to use certain facilities, sit certain places, etc...in this country. Believe it or not, past wrongs and have been righted (not sure that is a word, but I am going with it) -- they don't get righted unless there is a powerful argument to right it. Those are the kinds of unlawful things that get overturned. NAMBLA (which I am not going to "check out") is absolutely not, and never will be, on par -- I am not sliding down that slope with you.


And I don't, nor do I think others, believe 100% of everything they read in the history books. I think we all realize that history is written by the winners and edited as needed by those in power. Those that don't are naive.

For example, have you really read the WHOLE christian bible including the 14 books usually omitted in the protestant versions as referenced in this article?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/)

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 09:20 PM
I am not sure about homosexuality ever being unlawful in this country, I'd be interested in seeing some proof of that. But I don't underestimate people's ability to discriminate against others who are different. It used to be illegal for black people to use certain facilities, sit certain places, etc...in this country. Believe it or not, past wrongs and have been righted (not sure that is a word, but I am going with it) -- they don't get righted unless there is a powerful argument to right it. Those are the kinds of unlawful things that get overturned. NAMBLA (which I am not going to "check out") is absolutely not, and never will be, on par -- I am not sliding down that slope with you.


And I don't, nor do I think others, believe 100% of everything they read in the history books. I think we all realize that history is written by the winners and edited as needed by those in power. Those that don't are naive.

For example, have you really read the WHOLE christian bible including the 14 books usually omitted in the protestant versions as referenced in this article?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/)The US Supreme Court ruled that Sodomy wasn't illegal any longer. This was in the last 5 years or so. Google it. It marked the last legal roadblock to male homosexual sex.

The Apocrypha? I am aware of it. It was never part of the Bible to begin with. It wasn't ever excluded from the bible. It was the Catholics who decided to "include" it in their bible, but this was well after the OT and NT were completed, around 100AD. The Council of Trent added the Apocryphain the 16th century. They are not believed to be biblically inspired works worthy of canonization, but they are very good historical accounts.

rev kev
08-11-2009, 09:25 AM
There is photographic evidence, physical evidence, as well as people that are still alive that were in the holocaust. Can you say the same about anything from the bible?

The bible provides nothing but words. Words from thousands of years ago when the common idea was that the world was flat and the universe revolved around Earth. Deductions are made about dinosaurs based on similar bone structures to animals alive today, and common sense. The tiny arms of a T-Rex obviously could not have been used for walking (etc). We already had a carbon dating debate so I won't even bother over here with that.

It's not like there's just a group of 12 people looking at dinosaurs and deducing what they likely looked like and how they survived. There are hundreds of thousands of people that bounce ideas off each other based on tangible facts to come to conclusions. They never claim to be 100% sure like the bible does. They are scientific conclusions using scientific guidelines to come to them.

While the Hoocaust was very real 100% real..., pictures themselves won't always tell the whole truth - not with photo -shop around etc..., so it will take faith to believe..., is my point... and people will have to stand up tell their story and be accountable...

The New Guy
08-13-2009, 12:13 AM
The bible provides nothing but words. Words from thousands of years ago when the common idea was that the world was flat and the universe revolved around Earth.

No one can prove to someone that the Bible is truth. It cannot be proven. I believe the Bible is true because I believe it is true. I cannot prove that it is true. That is a matter of faith, and that faith was given to me by God.

Ephesians 2:8-9

No one can prove that the Bible is truth, but there are some things that point you in that direction.

1) Human Testimony. One of the reasons it is true is because you can see whose lives it has changed.



2) What about Jesus Christ? Never a person like Him. How do you explain Him? Men didn't invent Him. Why would men invent a perfect man who condemned all the rest of them. Men do not write books like that. They write books about imperfect people they can identify with.



3) Science and Archeology. You said:
The Bible was written when the common idea was that the world was flat and the universe revolved around Earth It says in the Bible, "He hangs the earth on nothing." That is the oldest book in the Bible. How did Job know that, when nobody else discovered it for centuries?


4) The Prophecies. You got hundreds and hundreds of prophecies predicting something that was going to happen, and it happened exactly as the Bible said. Who knows that, but God?

We do not have pictures, or physical evidence and that is why it takes faith. Everyone has faith. Just by existing, you have faith. Something has always existed. No matter what you believe, there is a starting point. You can either believe that God is the Alpha and the Omega and created all things, or you can believe that an ordered and incomprehensibly complex universe sprung by accident from nothingness and emerged by chance into the marvel that it is.

I choose to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that it offers the only accurate explanations that can be found anywhere about how our race began, where our moral sense originated, why we cannot seem to do what our own consciences tell us is right, and how we can be redeemed from this hopeless situation.

Scripture is not merely the best of several possible explanations. It is the Word of God. And my prayer for you is that you will read the Bible and that you will believe what God has spoken.

aesop
08-13-2009, 10:58 AM
1) Human Testimony. One of the reasons it is true is because you can see whose lives it has changed.The Bible is true because it changed lives? This is a ridiculous argument in trying to prove truth to something. Ren and Stimpy changed my life and lots of other lives I'm sure. Completely irrelevant and doesn't prove any truth to anything.


2) What about Jesus Christ? Never a person like Him. How do you explain Him? Men didn't invent Him. Why would men invent a perfect man who condemned all the rest of them. Men do not write books like that. They write books about imperfect people they can identify with. Never a person like him? Did you meet him? There were thousands and thousands of people who were crucified in those times. I don't doubt that he existed, I doubt that he was the son of god. Men do not write books like that? You are kidding right? You don't read many books, I guess. Simply saying Jesus was the son of god because people don't write books about perfect people is baseless. I think Jesus was crucified to simply keep the rumblings at bay that he was igniting. They wanted to keep the people in line and maintain their own power. Many people have been killed for preaching something that jeopardizes the ruling party's control.


3) Science and Archeology. You said:


The Bible was written when the common idea was that the world was flat and the universe revolved around Earth

It says in the Bible, "He hangs the earth on nothing." That is the oldest book in the Bible. How did Job know that, when nobody else discovered it for centuries? He hangs the earth on nothing? Uh.. how do you get "the world is round and earth revolves around the sun" from that? It's a symbolic quote from the bible. Quite the stretch..


4) The Prophecies. You got hundreds and hundreds of prophecies predicting something that was going to happen, and it happened exactly as the Bible said. Who knows that, but God?
What exactly are you referring to? What did the bible predict that then occured..?

Dolphan7
08-26-2009, 04:35 PM
The Bible is true because it changed lives? This is a ridiculous argument in trying to prove truth to something. Ren and Stimpy changed my life and lots of other lives I'm sure. Completely irrelevant and doesn't prove any truth to anything.

Never a person like him? Did you meet him? There were thousands and thousands of people who were crucified in those times. I don't doubt that he existed, I doubt that he was the son of god. Men do not write books like that? You are kidding right? You don't read many books, I guess. Simply saying Jesus was the son of god because people don't write books about perfect people is baseless. I think Jesus was crucified to simply keep the rumblings at bay that he was igniting. They wanted to keep the people in line and maintain their own power. Many people have been killed for preaching something that jeopardizes the ruling party's control.

He hangs the earth on nothing? Uh.. how do you get "the world is round and earth revolves around the sun" from that? It's a symbolic quote from the bible. Quite the stretch..

What exactly are you referring to? What did the bible predict that then occured..?Please don't misunderstand the lack of answers to your questions as not having the answers, but rather not willing to provide them to a person who has no desire to comprehend them.

aesop
08-28-2009, 01:43 PM
Enlighten me. I'd love to hear answers. So far none you have come up with have had any real, tangible evidence and I'd like to see some responses. What "New Guy" came up with for 'evidence' is anything but.

aesop
08-28-2009, 01:50 PM
And, as I've stated before, I'm agnostic. Don't make it like I'm a staunch atheist just trying to bring religions down.

Dolphan7
08-28-2009, 02:48 PM
Enlighten me. I'd love to hear answers. So far none you have come up with have had any real, tangible evidence and I'd like to see some responses. What "New Guy" came up with for 'evidence' is anything but.Do me, and everyone else, a favor. Go through and read the threads in here about all the posts supporting God. Take some time. Read them. Some go back a few years, especially the one that has over 1000 posts in it. No sense in reposting the same things over and over again, just to have you find fault in it. Go read the many posts from many different posters. Learn about their views, their experiences, their faith. If you have any major questions after that I would be happy to share some dialogue with you.

aesop
08-29-2009, 11:10 AM
So why not close this whole section of Finheaven down? I'm not going to search through a hundred threads to find your answer to points I just made. But that's alright, if you want to dodge everything it would make a lot of sense anyway.

Dolphan7
08-29-2009, 12:04 PM
So why not close this whole section of Finheaven down? I'm not going to search through a hundred threads to find your answer to points I just made. But that's alright, if you want to dodge everything it would make a lot of sense anyway.LOL - No one is dodging anything. Your late to the party dude. All your questions have been asked, and answered, and asked again, and answered again dozens of times over the years. It isn't dodging, but tiresome to continue to re-post the same things over and over again for people who don't want to read. In a way I have provided you with the answers - simply by pointing you to where you can find them. And in away you are dodging by refusing to research it for yourself.

Go read the history, get up to speed, come back if you still have questions.

Thanks!

aesop
08-31-2009, 11:39 AM
Yeah... no. I'm not going to search all these threads for an answer to a question. Instead of stating this twice you could have answered. I'll take it that you don't have a good one.