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CashInFist
07-05-2009, 05:16 PM
My answer: YES.



Your answer?...


P.S. Not a public poll. You can vote without fear of being judged here.

Tetragrammaton
07-05-2009, 06:56 PM
No.

CashInFist
07-05-2009, 07:02 PM
No.


How did we get here?

Tetragrammaton
07-05-2009, 07:07 PM
How did we get here?

I don't know. I got here from my parents, and they did from theirs. Beyond that, I cannot recall.

CashInFist
07-05-2009, 07:23 PM
I don't know. I got here from my parents, and they did from theirs. Beyond that, I cannot recall.

So your answer is "I don't know"...?

Just making sure, because I was hoping for a little better debate. ;)

Is this something you think about? Regularly, Infrequently, Never?

Is this a topic that you are CERTAIN you are right about?

Do you care at all how we got here, and the origin (meaning) of life?

Tetragrammaton
07-05-2009, 07:44 PM
So your answer is "I don't know"...?

Just making sure, because I was hoping for a little better debate. ;)

Is this something you think about? Regularly, Infrequently, Never?

Is this a topic that you are CERTAIN you are right about?

Do you care at all how we got here, and the origin (meaning) of life?

I never said I was right about anything. You asked if people believed, and I don't. I don't believe in a God, just like I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster, just like I don't believe the Dolphins will make the playoffs. I could be wrong, of course.

The meaning of life is whatever you want it to be. If you want to live a life according to the rules of a book written thousands of years ago, that is splendid. My meaning is having as much fun as possible before my death.

ih8brady
07-05-2009, 07:45 PM
So your answer is "I don't know"...?

Just making sure, because I was hoping for a little better debate. ;)

Is this something you think about? Regularly, Infrequently, Never?

Is this a topic that you are CERTAIN you are right about?

Do you care at all how we got here, and the origin (meaning) of life?


Why is the origin of life suppose to be equal to the meaning of life?

Tetragrammaton
07-05-2009, 08:02 PM
I believe in Harvey Dent.

shula_guy
07-05-2009, 08:19 PM
I believe in the life of Brian

PhinzN703
07-05-2009, 10:02 PM
I never said I was right about anything. You asked if people believed, and I don't. I don't believe in a God, just like I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster, just like I don't believe the Dolphins will make the playoffs. I could be wrong, of course.

The meaning of life is whatever you want it to be. If you want to live a life according to the rules of a book written thousands of years ago, that is splendid. My meaning is having as much fun as possible before my death.

Best quote I've heard in a long time :hi5:

PhinzN703
07-05-2009, 10:02 PM
Why is there no D (I don't know)?

X-Pacolypse
07-05-2009, 10:05 PM
Other: Agnostic

Locke
07-05-2009, 10:32 PM
I believe its possible, but doubtful. As for your third choice, you said another miracle, what was the first miracle...?

CashInFist
07-05-2009, 11:11 PM
I believe its possible, but doubtful. As for your third choice, you said another miracle, what was the first miracle...?

The resurrection of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago, you may have heard of it in fleeting conversation while in elevators, shopping malls and Fox News. It was something else man, you gotta see what everyone is saying! :up:

CashInFist
07-06-2009, 12:33 AM
Why is the origin of life suppose to be equal to the meaning of life?


To ask the question HOW did we get here? is in an infinite lock-step-tango with the ULTIMATE question which is, "WHY ARE WE HERE?".


I have have to ask...WTF is the point/origin/meaning of your post? :ponder:

CashInFist
07-06-2009, 12:38 AM
I never said I was right about anything. You asked if people believed, and I don't. I don't believe in a God, just like I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster, just like I don't believe the Dolphins will make the playoffs. I could be wrong, of course.

The meaning of life is whatever you want it to be. If you want to live a life according to the rules of a book written thousands of years ago, that is splendid. My meaning is having as much fun as possible before my death.


If you (God forbid) were in an accident and knew you were going to die, would you ask for God's help?

TedSlimmJr
07-06-2009, 02:32 AM
I never said I was right about anything. You asked if people believed, and I don't. I don't believe in a God, just like I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster, just like I don't believe the Dolphins will make the playoffs. I could be wrong, of course.

The meaning of life is whatever you want it to be. If you want to live a life according to the rules of a book written thousands of years ago, that is splendid. My meaning is having as much fun as possible before my death.


How could you not believe in the Loch Ness Monster? Haven't you seen the pictures? All the peoples claims that they have seen it? Obviously it exists...

No pictures of God.....No sightings....nothing......just a book written thousands of years ago.......

I guess the point is....we see what we choose to see....

emeraldfin
07-06-2009, 04:45 AM
I dont know. But you seem to be pushing the God is creator envelope, so why dont you explain why you think God is present instead of trying to argue against everyones else's view?

Possum
07-06-2009, 05:13 AM
I believe that everyone as the right to believe what ever they want let it be God, tom cruise, or living life to its fullest.

GoonBoss
07-06-2009, 05:44 AM
I do and I don't. Maybe one way more than the other and others more than the first.

Tetragrammaton
07-06-2009, 09:53 AM
If you (God forbid) were in an accident and knew you were going to die, would you ask for God's help?

That is actually a tough question. It is the same principle as the "there are no atheists in foxholes". While believers feel that that quote means that atheists are just acting the way we are, it really only proves that religion is irrationality. I don't want to die, so I would try to employ any means possible, realistic or not. I know I occasionally say a prayer before I get test results back.

Chubby
07-06-2009, 12:36 PM
Religion is so personal that this is a very tough topic for me.

Do I beleive in God? Yes! It has to do as much with my faith in him, then it has to do with I would be very terrified if he wasnt.

I want to beleive there is a better place.
I want to beleive their is someone guiding me.
I want to beleive there is someone judging me.
I want to be that my Father (RIP) was able to oversee(witness) the birth of my daughter a few years after his death.
I want to beleive that after its my time, I will be able to watch my beautiful daughter grow up.

You see Religion to me is more then just faith that GOD exists. I think I am a better person because I beleive in the above.
Chubbs

Locke
07-06-2009, 01:13 PM
The resurrection of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago, you may have heard of it in fleeting conversation while in elevators, shopping malls and Fox News. It was something else man, you gotta see what everyone is saying! :up:

Oh, I thought you were talking about the miracle of Big Foot being alive and roaming the Alaskan and Canadian wilderness. See? I can take something with absolutely no proof and pretend it actually happened too.

Plus, the condescending tone your post bleeds is the exact reason there are so many agnostics and atheists. So :up: right back at ya....

CashInFist
07-06-2009, 01:29 PM
I believe that everyone as the right to believe what ever they want let it be God, tom cruise, or living life to its fullest.


Chuck Norris created the color black,... actually he created ever color seen by man in the visible spectrum,... except pink... tom cruise invented pink. :chuckle:

TedSlimmJr
07-06-2009, 01:43 PM
Oh, I thought you were talking about the miracle of Big Foot being alive and roaming the Alaskan and Canadian wilderness. See? I can take something with absolutely no proof and pretend it actually happened too.

Plus, the condescending tone your post bleeds is the exact reason there are so many agnostics and atheists. So :up: right back at ya....


There's only one issue I can find with this line of thinking....and that is that the stakes are higher than can be measured....

If God does exist.....an atheist is willing to risk his/her soul just because someone was a smart azz? lol

An atheist isn't getting back at anyone by this line of thinking.....they're only potentially harming themselves beyond any and all comprehension...

I think the tragic mistake is that they assume that anyone claiming to be Christian with a condescending tone represents God.....

Are people really waiting for some sort of "scientific proof" that there is a God?

Good luck with that...

PhinzN703
07-06-2009, 02:03 PM
Religion is so personal that this is a very tough topic for me.

Do I beleive in God? Yes! It has to do as much with my faith in him, then it has to do with I would be very terrified if he wasnt.

I want to beleive there is a better place.
I want to beleive their is someone guiding me.
I want to beleive there is someone judging me.
I want to be that my Father (RIP) was able to oversee(witness) the birth of my daughter a few years after his death.
I want to beleive that after its my time, I will be able to watch my beautiful daughter grow up.

You see Religion to me is more then just faith that GOD exists. I think I am a better person because I beleive in the above.
Chubbs

I want similar things to what you said as well. I don't necessarily believe in God but I do think anything is possible.

Chubby
07-06-2009, 02:07 PM
I want similar things to what you said as well. I don't necessarily believe in God but I do think anything is possible.

Thats why I think Religion goes far beyond just God, Its about faith, its about hope, its about finding that one thing that hopefully keeps u flying straight. I think if everyone beleived in something, something that they truly held close to their heart, this world would be a much better place.
Chubbs

CashInFist
07-06-2009, 03:53 PM
How could you not believe in the Loch Ness Monster? Haven't you seen the pictures? All the peoples claims that they have seen it? Obviously it exists...

No pictures of God.....No sightings....nothing......just a book written thousands of years ago.......

I guess the point is....we see what we choose to see....


Yet here we are, still talking about miracles that happened over 2000 years ago...still debating...

What other "story" from that long ago is even an afterthought in today's America...World?

Many over this past generation have either not been taught (most likely) or just abandoned good moral values that USED to make us a good society.

All is not lost. The good people will once again control what we do as a country once again I truly believe.

But, there is no better time than right now to go look at your own eyes in the mirror and decide exactly who/what you really are, and what you truly believe in mentally/spiritually/physically..................politically.:chuckle:

Locke
07-06-2009, 04:06 PM
There's only one issue I can find with this line of thinking....and that is that the stakes are higher than can be measured....

If God does exist.....an atheist is willing to risk his/her soul just because someone was a smart azz? lol

An atheist isn't getting back at anyone by this line of thinking.....they're only potentially harming themselves beyond any and all comprehension...

I think the tragic mistake is that they assume that anyone claiming to be Christian with a condescending tone represents God.....

Are people really waiting for some sort of "scientific proof" that there is a God?

Good luck with that...

I understand what you're saying, I really do. The problem, however, is you're asking everyone to overlook rude/condescending people for their entire lives. Do you hang out with people who annoy the **** out of you? Of course you don't. Why should anyone else have to?

As for scientific proof, you're also absolutely right. My biggest questions, which no one seems to be able to give me an answer for, is why would God create someone with a scientific mind, if that only serves to condemn them to hell? If God is real, and he created everything, then he created people who nave the kind of brain that requires proof. By doing so, he has then condemned a pretty large population of humans, without even giving them a choice in the matter. That doesn't seem very divine to me...

X-Pacolypse
07-06-2009, 04:13 PM
Yet here we are, still talking about miracles that happened over 2000 years ago...still debating...

What other "story" from that long ago is even an afterthought in today's America...World?

Many over this past generation have either not been taught (most likely) or just abandoned good moral values that USED to make us a good society.

All is not lost. The good people will once again control what we do as a country once again I truly believe.

But, there is no better time than right now to go look at your own eyes in the mirror and decide exactly who/what you really are, and what you truly believe in mentally/spiritually/physically..................politically.:chuckle:

Those same folks you mentioned in an earlier statement are more than likely the same folks who did exactly what you mentioned in your latter statement. I have spent a considerable amount of this time in this decade trying to find out who I am, what my beliefs really are, and my "true" political stance.

Good folks come from every walk of life.

CashInFist
07-06-2009, 04:38 PM
Those same folks you mentioned in an earlier statement are more than likely the same folks who did exactly what you mentioned in your latter statement. I have spent a considerable amount of this time in this decade trying to find out who I am, what my beliefs really are, and my "true" political stance.

Good folks come from every walk of life.

First part of your post I am sorry but I have no clue what you are talking about...


I 100% agree with you here. No matter what your beliefs are at any given moment we as human beings are constantly processing new information about the ever changing world we live in today.

I believe Religion evolves as we learn more about ourselves and what is REALLY out there in the galaxies surrounding us.

Even the Pope declared that the Catholic Church recognizes that there is more than likely some other kind of lifeforms out there besides us...LOL...like we didn't already know, BUT it was VERY critical to the evolution of the Christian society.

Let's face it guys, I think a poll would show a vast majority of us think there are some other kinds of lifeforms in the universe...SOMEWHERE.


But, in the end, don't you think:

1.) SOMETHING had to create all of the billions of solar systems in our own galaxy, not to mention the billions of of estimated galaxies?

2.) How can an: "I don't know how we got here but I don't care" approach EVER be considered acceptable?

3.) If you have a better explanation...bring it on, this is going to be debated until the end of time.

ih8brady
07-06-2009, 05:00 PM
To ask the question HOW did we get here? is in an infinite lock-step-tango with the ULTIMATE question which is, "WHY ARE WE HERE?".


I have have to ask...WTF is the point/origin/meaning of your post? :ponder:


Simple: the words "meaning" and "origin" are not interchangeable. They are different ideas and ask separate questions, not just to life but other concepts as well.

X-Pacolypse
07-06-2009, 05:02 PM
First part of your post I am sorry but I have no clue what you are talking about...

I was referencing the two statements that I highlighted in your previous post. Line 3 and Line 5.

TedSlimmJr
07-06-2009, 05:16 PM
I understand what you're saying, I really do. The problem, however, is you're asking everyone to overlook rude/condescending people for their entire lives. Do you hang out with people who annoy the **** out of you? Of course you don't. Why should anyone else have to?

As for scientific proof, you're also absolutely right. My biggest questions, which no one seems to be able to give me an answer for, is why would God create someone with a scientific mind, if that only serves to condemn them to hell? If God is real, and he created everything, then he created people who nave the kind of brain that requires proof. By doing so, he has then condemned a pretty large population of humans, without even giving them a choice in the matter. That doesn't seem very divine to me...


I'm not asking to overlook rude people.....all I'm trying to say is that it's probably not in anyone's best interest to let other peoples behavior have any bearing on whether they choose to believe in God or not....he wouldn't have anything to do with that....

We all have to find that ourselves....the only thing I could guarantee is that God can't be found by asking for pictures of him....or any means of tangible evidence....God obviously wouldn't apply to such generic interpretation....

If we had proof....then faith would no longer be required....

Obviously, you have to believe in something first before you can have faith in it....

Noone is created condemned to hell.....you have the rest of your life to find out the meaning of God and his word....that could be 5 more minutes....or 50 more years....we don't know how long we have....

But don't assume that having an inquisitive nature means you're marked by the beast....

BobDole
07-06-2009, 09:15 PM
i'm not sure but i really do want to believe in God. it seems to be better than the alternatives. one thing i can say is i definitely do not believe that monkeys turned into people - so at least i'm getting there.

CashInFist
07-07-2009, 03:45 AM
I dont know. But you seem to be pushing the God is creator envelope, so why dont you explain why you think God is present instead of trying to argue against everyones else's view?


Why is it that EVERY time a group of scientists try to disprove the Bible they only end up supporting it even more? They don't even try anymore...

CashInFist
07-07-2009, 04:22 AM
Simple: the words "meaning" and "origin" are not interchangeable. They are different ideas and ask separate questions, not just to life but other concepts as well.


Did you REALLY have to go out of your way to make this frivolous point? :ponder:

EDIT: Or are you just another hater? :chuckle:

CashInFist
07-07-2009, 05:09 AM
I understand what you're saying, I really do. The problem, however, is you're asking everyone to overlook rude/condescending people for their entire lives. Do you hang out with people who annoy the **** out of you? Of course you don't. Why should anyone else have to?

As for scientific proof, you're also absolutely right. My biggest questions, which no one seems to be able to give me an answer for, is why would God create someone with a scientific mind, if that only serves to condemn them to hell? If God is real, and he created everything, then he created people who nave the kind of brain that requires proof. By doing so, he has then condemned a pretty large population of humans, without even giving them a choice in the matter. That doesn't seem very divine to me...


Two words:

FREE WILL


This is the answer also as to why bad things happen. We have the freedom to choose to do whatever we want to do. We control our own destiny. If we didn't have that freedom of free will we would all be little puppets not even really being alive.

Best: If nothing bad ever happened we would not know what good is.

CashInFist
07-07-2009, 05:46 AM
Oh, I thought you were talking about the miracle of Big Foot being alive and roaming the Alaskan and Canadian wilderness. See? I can take something with absolutely no proof and pretend it actually happened too.

Plus, the condescending tone your post bleeds is the exact reason there are so many agnostics and atheists. So :up: right back at ya....

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Mrs. Palin exterminated Big Foot with a sniper rifle while hiding 30 feet up in a tree, in full camo, from 400 yards away, while she was posting on twitter , about 5 months ago. Where the F have you been? :chuckle:

PhinzN703
07-07-2009, 10:42 AM
But, in the end, don't you think:

1.) SOMETHING had to create all of the billions of solar systems in our own galaxy, not to mention the billions of of estimated galaxies?

2.) How can an: "I don't know how we got here but I don't care" approach EVER be considered acceptable?

3.) If you have a better explanation...bring it on, this is going to be debated until the end of time.

There really is no clear answer here. The idea of a God who created everything for some purpose makes little sense if you think about it. Where'd he come from? He was just there the whole time? Doing what?

Evolution, the Ark, people of different color, races, mindsets. It's all nutty if you dig deep enough.

GoonBoss
07-07-2009, 12:33 PM
Two words:

FREE WILL


This is the answer also as to why bad things happen. We have the freedom to choose to do whatever we want to do. We control our own destiny. If we didn't have that freedom of free will we would all be little puppets not even really being alive.

Best: If nothing bad ever happened we would not know what good is.

But we all go to hell if we use our free will and don't choose god, right?

So, in the end, the only reason we were put here is to worship god. It's the right thing. Now, we have free will which he granted us, Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, the catch is.....You choose wrong and you go to hell to suffer for eternity.

Why the hell did he put us here then? Doesn't it seem in the least bit nonsensical to you that we have salvation, which we wouldn't need in the first place if we were not put here by god...OR, we go to hell to suffer forever?

This is akin to my wife and I having a child who is destined to do nothing bu love us, mow the grass, and, clean the house. Should he choose to try something else, well that's fine...In love, we will burn him to death in the fireplace.

It makes about the same sense.

Locke
07-07-2009, 12:57 PM
Two words:

FREE WILL


This is the answer also as to why bad things happen. We have the freedom to choose to do whatever we want to do. We control our own destiny. If we didn't have that freedom of free will we would all be little puppets not even really being alive.

Best: If nothing bad ever happened we would not know what good is.

That doesn't answer my question. If God gave someone a scientific mind, a mind that requires proof to believe something, that isn't free will. The decision was already made that they are going to hell because they were given a mind that won't accept anything without proof. Since God won't give proof of his existence, a person with a scientific mind was chosen for hell. There is no free will.

So I ask again. Why would God condemn a large portion of the population to hell by giving them a scientific brain...?

Locke
07-07-2009, 01:00 PM
I'm not asking to overlook rude people.....all I'm trying to say is that it's probably not in anyone's best interest to let other peoples behavior have any bearing on whether they choose to believe in God or not....he wouldn't have anything to do with that....

We all have to find that ourselves....the only thing I could guarantee is that God can't be found by asking for pictures of him....or any means of tangible evidence....God obviously wouldn't apply to such generic interpretation....

If we had proof....then faith would no longer be required....

Obviously, you have to believe in something first before you can have faith in it....

Noone is created condemned to hell.....you have the rest of your life to find out the meaning of God and his word....that could be 5 more minutes....or 50 more years....we don't know how long we have....

But don't assume that having an inquisitive nature means you're marked by the beast....

This doesn't answer my question though. All you stated is that no one is condemned to hell.

If a person has been given a scientific mind by God, then he is actually unable to believe something without proof. If God will not give proof of his existence, and requires people to just believe, then someone who requires proof of everything, as given to them by God, would be condemned to hell. That doesn't seem very righteous to me....

CashInFist
07-07-2009, 01:08 PM
That doesn't answer my question. If God gave someone a scientific mind, a mind that requires proof to believe something, that isn't free will. The decision was already made that they are going to hell because they were given a mind that won't accept anything without proof. Since God won't give proof of his existence, a person with a scientific mind was chosen for hell. There is no free will.

So I ask again. Why would God condemn a large portion of the population to hell by giving them a scientific brain...?


Every panel of scientists that have ever tried to disprove the Bible using scientific methods only end up proving it's validity even more. They don't even try anymore.

As for hell, as long as you TRULY accept God and his son Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will not be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

I am also still on the fence as to what "exactly" hell is...

TedSlimmJr
07-07-2009, 01:26 PM
That doesn't answer my question. If God gave someone a scientific mind, a mind that requires proof to believe something, that isn't free will. The decision was already made that they are going to hell because they were given a mind that won't accept anything without proof. Since God won't give proof of his existence, a person with a scientific mind was chosen for hell. There is no free will.

So I ask again. Why would God condemn a large portion of the population to hell by giving them a scientific brain...?


Well, I don't subscribe to the theory that someone with a scientific mind automatically needs proof to believe in God.....maybe it's that you CHOOSE to not believe in God without some sort of tangible proof....

There is plenty of proof....it's just whether we choose to see it or not....

Like I said.....I know the answers that you're looking for.....maybe it's possible that you're looking for them in the wrong places?

If you REALLY want answers to your questions, you won't find them here.....but you can find them......I would venture to guess that you're going to have to go about it in a different manner though....

The answers to God aren't on the internet son....

PhinzN703
07-07-2009, 01:38 PM
Well, I don't subscribe to the theory that someone with a scientific mind automatically needs proof to believe in God.....maybe it's that you CHOOSE to not believe in God without some sort of tangible proof....

There is plenty of proof....it's just whether we choose to see it or not....

Like I said.....I know the answers that you're looking for.....maybe it's possible that you're looking for them in the wrong places?

If you REALLY want answers to your questions, you won't find them here.....but you can find them......I would venture to guess that you're going to have to go about it in a different manner though....

The answers to God aren't on the internet son....

I'm curious as to what proof we may have seen so far

Locke
07-07-2009, 01:43 PM
Every panel of scientists that have ever tried to disprove the Bible using scientific methods only end up proving it's validity even more. They don't even try anymore.

As for hell, as long as you TRULY accept God and his son Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will not be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

I am also still on the fence as to what "exactly" hell is...

Hey, heres an idea. Answer my damn question. I don't care about scientists, or accepting Jesus, or any of that. I've heard that countless times. If you don't have an answer for my questions, just say so, and I'll drop it. Stop feeding me this bull**** though....

Locke
07-07-2009, 01:49 PM
Well, I don't subscribe to the theory that someone with a scientific mind automatically needs proof to believe in God.....maybe it's that you CHOOSE to not believe in God without some sort of tangible proof....

There is plenty of proof....it's just whether we choose to see it or not....

Like I said.....I know the answers that you're looking for.....maybe it's possible that you're looking for them in the wrong places?

If you REALLY want answers to your questions, you won't find them here.....but you can find them......I would venture to guess that you're going to have to go about it in a different manner though....

The answers to God aren't on the internet son....

I'm not looking for answers to anything, especially not on the internet. I have a pretty firm personal belief about whats going on, and that does involve a higher power, but not the Christian version.

As for a scientific mind, I suppose its hard to understand the concept of needing proof if you don't have one. Growing up, I wish I could tell you how much I wanted to believe in an all-powerful God and heaven, but could never ever do so without my brain automatically wondering things that couldn't be answered. There was no choosing to doubt. The doubts were just there. I can assure you, there is no choice for me in the matter. I don't believe because there are a heck of a lot more questions than answers. Its the same reason I don't believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, or the Boogie man. They might be real. Anytime someone has tried to prove it, they end up with more questions than they started out with though. I could choose to believe, but it would be a superficial belief, with me just ignoring the questions. That isn't belief at all....

GoonBoss
07-07-2009, 02:12 PM
I have yet to see any proof of a god as Christians portray god. It all comes down to faith.

TedSlimmJr
07-07-2009, 02:14 PM
I'm not looking for answers to anything, especially not on the internet. I have a pretty firm personal belief about whats going on, and that does involve a higher power, but not the Christian version.

As for a scientific mind, I suppose its hard to understand the concept of needing proof if you don't have one. Growing up, I wish I could tell you how much I wanted to believe in an all-powerful God and heaven, but could never ever do so without my brain automatically wondering things that couldn't be answered. There was no choosing to doubt. The doubts were just there. I can assure you, there is no choice for me in the matter. I don't believe because there are a heck of a lot more questions than answers. Its the same reason I don't believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, or the Boogie man. They might be real. Anytime someone has tried to prove it, they end up with more questions than they started out with though. I could choose to believe, but it would be a superficial belief, with me just ignoring the questions. That isn't belief at all....


That's precisely what's so great about this country.....we have the freedom to believe whatever we choose...

I'm going to try respond to PhinzN703's question here too...

As far as proof that God exists, I could only speak to my own personal experiences throughout my life...nothing more...

But as far as proof of God's word, I believe it's in the prophecies of the Bible (that book written thousands of years ago) that have been fulfilled....and continue to be....

Sometimes it's not good enough for certain people....and that's just the way it is I guess....they want forensic evidence that God exists....like his face in the sky....or someone to stumble upon God's lost wallet with his identification in it...

We all have the same questions about how God came about, and where did he come from, etc.....but I just don't believe any human being is capable of comprehending that.....no matter how high their IQ is....nor are any of us deserving of those answers...you can't apply "laws" or "theories" to the Holy Ghost and it ever make sense to you....

I believe that everyday we wake up able to type on this keyboard, is God's GIFT to all of us.....tomorrow isn't promised to us....therefore everyday that he gives us is another chance to find salvation through Jesus Christ.....before there are no more chances...

PhinzN703
07-07-2009, 02:29 PM
That's precisely what's so great about this country.....we have the freedom to believe whatever we choose...

I'm going to try respond to PhinzN703's question here too...

As far as proof that God exists, I could only speak to my own personal experiences throughout my life...nothing more...

But as far as proof of God's word, I believe it's in the prophecies of the Bible (that book written thousands of years ago) that have been fulfilled....and continue to be....

Sometimes it's not good enough for certain people....and that's just the way it is I guess....they want forensic evidence that God exists....like his face in the sky....or someone to stumble upon God's lost wallet with his identification in it...

We all have the same questions about how God came about, and where did he come from, etc.....but I just don't believe any human being is capable of comprehending that.....no matter how high their IQ is....nor are any of us deserving of those answers...you can't apply "laws" or "theories" to the Holy Ghost and it ever make sense to you....

I believe that everyday we wake up able to type on this keyboard, is God's GIFT to all of us.....tomorrow isn't promised to us....therefore everyday that he gives us is another chance to find salvation through Jesus Christ.....before there are no more chances...

I understand man. I just wanted to hear your experiences

CashInFist
07-07-2009, 03:20 PM
I'm curious as to what proof we may have seen so far


Jesus Christ's resurrection is still being debated over 2000 years later. What other miracle do we talk about? How many do we need?

GoonBoss
07-07-2009, 03:32 PM
Jesus Christ's resurrection is still being debated over 2000 years later. What other miracle do we talk about? How many do we need?

Maybe your god planting in the heart of man an irrefutable and intimate knowledge of him? If your god were merciful and, just, as you claim, surely he wouldn't put man on the earth, give him free will and, then, toss those who used that free will,which he gave them, into hell like so many sticks.

Again...This logic is akin to having a child for no other purpose than to love you and do chores around the house, then, tell them they don't have to do those things, but, if they don't, you are going to hang them by their toes for the rest of thier lives.

ih8brady
07-07-2009, 03:41 PM
Jesus Christ's resurrection is still being debated over 2000 years later. What other miracle do we talk about? How many do we need?


So because Christians believe in it, that's what makes it real? That's proof? Astrology and other prophecy systems have existed far before the creation of Christianity and people still read those silly astrologies. There are also formal religions like Jainism that are still active which far predate Christianity. None of your "poofs" and "points" in your posts are true, demonstrable or sensible.

ih8brady
07-07-2009, 03:44 PM
Did you REALLY have to go out of your way to make this frivolous point? :ponder:

EDIT: Or are you just another hater? :chuckle:


Honestly stating a credulous assumption to be false is never frivolous. Being ignorant and condescending is. You should try the PoFo, though, it is on this site's forums.

PhinzN703
07-07-2009, 04:46 PM
Jesus Christ's resurrection is still being debated over 2000 years later. What other miracle do we talk about? How many do we need?

Do we have 2001 year old people telling us about this event or is this just assumed b/c of written texts?

Tetragrammaton
07-07-2009, 04:59 PM
This video pretty much explains my religious beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41n3mwCcZQ4&feature=related

BobDole
07-07-2009, 05:32 PM
That doesn't answer my question. If God gave someone a scientific mind, a mind that requires proof to believe something, that isn't free will. The decision was already made that they are going to hell because they were given a mind that won't accept anything without proof. Since God won't give proof of his existence, a person with a scientific mind was chosen for hell. There is no free will.

So I ask again. Why would God condemn a large portion of the population to hell by giving them a scientific brain...?

it's funny because i see where both of you are coming from - but they are answering your question. the problem is, your question is fundamentally wrong. you are not automatically condemned to hell if you have a scientific mind. just because you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you have already made up your mind - which is fine - but don't pretend you're still trying. the whole going to hell thing because you won't accept anything without proof is a full on copout.

i will attempt to answer your question in the manner in which you want it to be answered. God did not want a planet of zombies that were blindly following him because - what fun would that be? why offer up your only son to die for everyone's sins if it's just going to create a world full of nothins? so He gave us scientific minds and free will - not to condemn us to hell - but to figure it out for our damn selves. faith and science do not necessarily contradict each other - science just thinks it does. science is funny that way.

there are many, many people who have set out to disprove the bible - like cash was saying - that ended up doing exactly the opposite. one really good book that i recommend is called 'evidence that demands a verdict' by a guy named josh mcdowell. he was an atheist that got converted during his research. do even read that as an atheist - it's still pretty convincing.

i wish i believed like i think i should - but i also have way too many unanswered questions. the difference between us is i haven't ruled it out yet. my biggest problem is the amount of Christians as compared to the other main religions. according to Christianity, basically all of india, asia, etc are going to hell b/c they were born in the wrong place and therefore were born into the wrong religion. these people dedicate their lives to their respective religions - and what do they get for it according to Christianity? an eternity of fire and brimstone. according to the bible, the vast majority of people on earth are going to hell. even the majority of people who are 'Christians' are going to hell because they don't/didn't live totally for God - which is what you're supposed to do. that fugging sucks. yeah, i know Christianity was first and it is worldwide but it definitely doesn't speak for the entire globe. that's the main thing i can't get past. why have a world full of people that you supposedly love when most of them are going to hell? that is completely insane.

BobDole
07-07-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm curious as to what proof we may have seen so far

read revelations - specifically the parts that speak about the signs of the apocalypse - and commence to freak out. the bible has predicted many things that have come to fruition over the years - which is why it is still relevant 2000 years later. the one world currency is the thing i'm waiting for to officially lose my ****.

proof is a very broad term. no one can give you a piece of the cross or anything that substantial - but it's hard to say exorcists don't exist with how many that have happened worldwide.

revelations isn't that long and it's extremely interesting. read that and get back to me.

GoonBoss
07-07-2009, 05:57 PM
read revelations - specifically the parts that speak about the signs of the apocalypse - and commence to freak out. the bible has predicted many things that have come to fruition over the years - which is why it is still relevant 2000 years later. the one world currency is the thing i'm waiting for to officially lose my ****.

proof is a very broad term. no one can give you a piece of the cross or anything that substantial - but it's hard to say exorcists don't exist with how many that have happened worldwide.

revelations isn't that long and it's extremely interesting. read that and get back to me.

I'm 41 years old. Every crisis that happens, it's the same thing..."Look at Revelations!". Fact is; You can apply anything of any time to revelations. Tell me a time in history there have not been wars, and rumors of wars, etc. If you want to believe in Casper the freindly ghost, you can convince yourself that Casper exists.

BobDole
07-07-2009, 06:10 PM
I'm 41 years old. Every crisis that happens, it's the same thing..."Look at Revelations!". Fact is; You can apply anything of any time to revelations. Tell me a time in history there have not been wars, and rumors of wars, etc. If you want to believe in Casper the freindly ghost, you can convince yourself that Casper exists.

talking about signs of the apocalypse. i'm talking about the predictions that were made some 2000 years ago that seem to be coming true today.

i'm as agnostic as it gets and that book still freaks me out. pigeonhole me all you want, but that **** seems to be coming true. you can argue they've all come true except the one world currency thing (some say the euro but i don't buy it) - when that happens i will damn sure be listening.

GoonBoss
07-07-2009, 06:22 PM
talking about signs of the apocalypse. i'm talking about the predictions that were made some 2000 years ago that seem to be coming true today.

i'm as agnostic as it gets and that book still freaks me out. pigeonhole me all you want, but that **** seems to be coming true. you can argue they've all come true except the one world currency thing (some say the euro but i don't buy it) - when that happens i will damn sure be listening.

When you write in borad, and, symbolic terms about a certain subject, it's very easy to interpret things as you wish. All of those predictions/signs have come to fruition, time, and time and time again over history. It freaks you out because you want to be freaked out.

BobDole
07-07-2009, 06:45 PM
When you write in borad, and, symbolic terms about a certain subject, it's very easy to interpret things as you wish. All of those predictions/signs have come to fruition, time, and time and time again over history. It freaks you out because you want to be freaked out.

wha-wha-what? i don't want to be freaked out by stuff like that - not exactly my idea of a good time. despite whatever you choose to believe, if these 2 things happen, start paying attention:

- a middle east leader will come to power and will sign a peace covenant with israel for 7 years

- the peace covenant will be broken around the 3 1/2 year mark

neither of these 2 things have happened - time or time again. these are ones that are not open to interpretation. there are others that are very open to interpretation (the 666 thing, the four horsemen, etc.) but these 2 are not. just promise me if a new leader comes to power in the middle east and signs a 7 year peace covenant with israel, that you'll be aware of what's going on (and that you'll never agree to put 666 anywhere on your body for any reason).

GoonBoss
07-07-2009, 07:10 PM
wha-wha-what? i don't want to be freaked out by stuff like that - not exactly my idea of a good time. despite whatever you choose to believe, if these 2 things happen, start paying attention:

- a middle east leader will come to power and will sign a peace covenant with israel for 7 years

- the peace covenant will be broken around the 3 1/2 year mark

neither of these 2 things have happened - time or time again. these are ones that are not open to interpretation. there are others that are very open to interpretation (the 666 thing, the four horsemen, etc.) but these 2 are not. just promise me if a new leader comes to power in the middle east and signs a 7 year peace covenant with israel, that you'll be aware of what's going on (and that you'll never agree to put 666 anywhere on your body for any reason).

I won't have a 666 put on my hand or my forehead. I will also be very careful of beanstalks that grow into the sky. Promise ME that if you are ever walking through the woods, and, come across a house with three of everything in it that very in size, you won't eat the porrige, or sleep in the beds. It has about the same chances of happening.

Lots of people think they know what's in revelation. for instance, many interpreted Sadat and Begin as the peace pact. People say the one world currency is in the bible. Where is it written? It's not. It's often interpreted as speaking about currency, but, in fact, that's allllllll supposition and interpretation.

BobDole
07-07-2009, 07:30 PM
I won't have a 666 put on my hand or my forehead. I will also be very careful of beanstalks that grow into the sky. Promise ME that if you are ever walking through the woods, and, come across a house with three of everything in it that very in size, you won't eat the porrige, or sleep in the beds. It has about the same chances of happening.

Lots of people think they know what's in revelation. for instance, many interpreted Sadat and Begin as the peace pact. People say the one world currency is in the bible. Where is it written? It's not. It's often interpreted as speaking about currency, but, in fact, that's allllllll supposition and interpretation.

no need to make fun man. a peace pact being signed with israel for 7 years and being broken halfway in is most certainly in the bible. if that happens, just pay attention - for your own sake.

look - i'm an agnostic because i have way more questions than answers. way, way more. but if those things happen - like it's been predicted - don't be ignorant. don't be one of those people that rationalize these kind of predictions - they're just too specific to ignore.

PhinzN703
07-07-2009, 10:14 PM
read revelations - specifically the parts that speak about the signs of the apocalypse - and commence to freak out. the bible has predicted many things that have come to fruition over the years - which is why it is still relevant 2000 years later. the one world currency is the thing i'm waiting for to officially lose my ****.

proof is a very broad term. no one can give you a piece of the cross or anything that substantial - but it's hard to say exorcists don't exist with how many that have happened worldwide.

revelations isn't that long and it's extremely interesting. read that and get back to me.

One day maybe ;)

CashInFist
07-08-2009, 12:30 AM
When you write in borad, and, symbolic terms about a certain subject, it's very easy to interpret things as you wish. All of those predictions/signs have come to fruition, time, and time and time again over history. It freaks you out because you want to be freaked out.


Dude...I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you have NEVER read the Bible and if you have you remember very little or nothing about it. I'm guessing it was probably too complex for you to understand.

CashInFist
07-08-2009, 12:32 AM
I won't have a 666 put on my hand or my forehead. I will also be very careful of beanstalks that grow into the sky. Promise ME that if you are ever walking through the woods, and, come across a house with three of everything in it that very in size, you won't eat the porrige, or sleep in the beds. It has about the same chances of happening.

Lots of people think they know what's in revelation. for instance, many interpreted Sadat and Begin as the peace pact. People say the one world currency is in the bible. Where is it written? It's not. It's often interpreted as speaking about currency, but, in fact, that's allllllll supposition and interpretation.


George Carlin is dead man. Get over it already.

ih8brady
07-08-2009, 12:33 AM
George Carlin is dead man. Get over it already.


You want to talk about shelf-life, how long has Jesus been dead?

CashInFist
07-08-2009, 12:41 AM
You want to talk about shelf-life, how long has Jesus been dead?


Yeah, and Jesus Christ is being debated 24/7 all over the world 2000 years later...you just made my point. Thanks.

Locke
07-08-2009, 02:25 AM
it's funny because i see where both of you are coming from - but they are answering your question. the problem is, your question is fundamentally wrong. you are not automatically condemned to hell if you have a scientific mind. just because you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you have already made up your mind - which is fine - but don't pretend you're still trying. the whole going to hell thing because you won't accept anything without proof is a full on copout.

i will attempt to answer your question in the manner in which you want it to be answered. God did not want a planet of zombies that were blindly following him because - what fun would that be? why offer up your only son to die for everyone's sins if it's just going to create a world full of nothins? so He gave us scientific minds and free will - not to condemn us to hell - but to figure it out for our damn selves. faith and science do not necessarily contradict each other - science just thinks it does. science is funny that way.

there are many, many people who have set out to disprove the bible - like cash was saying - that ended up doing exactly the opposite. one really good book that i recommend is called 'evidence that demands a verdict' by a guy named josh mcdowell. he was an atheist that got converted during his research. do even read that as an atheist - it's still pretty convincing.

i wish i believed like i think i should - but i also have way too many unanswered questions. the difference between us is i haven't ruled it out yet. my biggest problem is the amount of Christians as compared to the other main religions. according to Christianity, basically all of india, asia, etc are going to hell b/c they were born in the wrong place and therefore were born into the wrong religion. these people dedicate their lives to their respective religions - and what do they get for it according to Christianity? an eternity of fire and brimstone. according to the bible, the vast majority of people on earth are going to hell. even the majority of people who are 'Christians' are going to hell because they don't/didn't live totally for God - which is what you're supposed to do. that fugging sucks. yeah, i know Christianity was first and it is worldwide but it definitely doesn't speak for the entire globe. that's the main thing i can't get past. why have a world full of people that you supposedly love when most of them are going to hell? that is completely insane.

I think you are under the assumption I've completely ruled out there being a God. I have done no such thing. I have a personal theory that I believe is true. I have no proof or anything of the sort, I just subscribe to the thought because it seems to make the most sense to me. If I was ever presented with something that, without a doubt, showed me there was a God, I'd be a Christian in a heartbeat.

As for my question, I appreciate you trying to answer it. Unfortunately, I didn't find a solid answer in your response. I agree with one point, it is completely insane to have a world full of people going to hell. Therein lies my issue. Those of us with scientific minds are condemned to hell, because the very thing that we would need to convince us is never going to happen. Like I said before, we were NOT given free will as far as believing goes. Those of us with scientific minds were pre-chosen not to be able to believe since God will never give proof of his existence. That sounds like a predestined hell to me...

Locke
07-08-2009, 02:29 AM
I'm guessing it was probably too complex for you to understand.

Wow man, seriously? So because someone doesn't believe the bible is real, it was too complex for them? You know, you're absolutely right. A talking snake convincing Adam and Eve to eat a forbidden apple is pretty complex. So complex, in fact, that the only other place I'd see any plot as complex as that is on Cartoon Network. Oh yeah, how about the guy living in a whale for 7 days? A person. Living. Inside a whale. Pretty complex eh? Moses parting the red sea? A single man moving an entire ocean? Need I go on...?

GoonBoss
07-08-2009, 09:33 AM
George Carlin is dead man. Get over it already.

So is Jesus. Get over it already.

PhinzN703
07-08-2009, 10:25 AM
Yeah, and Jesus Christ is being debated 24/7 all over the world 2000 years later...you just made my point. Thanks.

I think it's easy to talk about a person who if you don't believe in and love them in your life, you're doomed for eternal hell.

BobDole
07-08-2009, 07:04 PM
I think you are under the assumption I've completely ruled out there being a God. I have done no such thing. I have a personal theory that I believe is true. I have no proof or anything of the sort, I just subscribe to the thought because it seems to make the most sense to me. If I was ever presented with something that, without a doubt, showed me there was a God, I'd be a Christian in a heartbeat.

As for my question, I appreciate you trying to answer it. Unfortunately, I didn't find a solid answer in your response. I agree with one point, it is completely insane to have a world full of people going to hell. Therein lies my issue. Those of us with scientific minds are condemned to hell, because the very thing that we would need to convince us is never going to happen. Like I said before, we were NOT given free will as far as believing goes. Those of us with scientific minds were pre-chosen not to be able to believe since God will never give proof of his existence. That sounds like a predestined hell to me...

i tried. if you have the time, try to read that book i recommended. i think it might change your mind about my response.

Tetragrammaton
07-08-2009, 07:24 PM
Look at Conor, laying down the law.

BobDole
07-08-2009, 07:38 PM
Look at Conor, laying down the law.

hardly.

might be game for a beer later. there's a place right next to me that just started doing dollar yuengling drafts. what's your deal?

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 07:49 PM
LOL. I have been away for a while and I come back to this thread.

Same skeptics, asking endless questions, never really seeking answers but instead proposing more endless questions and proposing their own ideas of God. The problem with coming up with your own idea of what God is, how he should respond, how he makes sense to us is that it leads to several trillion different "views" of what God is. Who would want a God like that? Several of the faithful have made great strides in answering the tough questions, but in the end the hearts of the skeptics are hardened. It reminds me of Romans 1.

Speaking of Romans 1. It has been put forward that there is no proof of God. Now I ask you why would one want to believe in a God that hides himself in mystery? I wouldn't. Thankfully God doesn't hide. He has given us several means to know that he exists. That doesn't preclude one from ignoring every single one of them - free will. Romans 1 says:

RO 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
RO 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
RO 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.Look around. What do you see? The entire universe! All of God's creation is laid out for all of us to see. Look at our world. We see mind boggling complexity, yet organized into laws that scream of design, many yet to be explained (gravity). How did all this begin? Where did it all come from? No possible answers other than the exact creator that created it all. Nothing else makes sense. Can't get matter from non-matter. Can't get life from non-life. Not even in a test tube. Romans 1 simply states that His existance is evident by the world we see around us, and therefore we are all without excuse.

If one can get past the idea that there is a God that created everything, the the next step would be - which God? Sounds like a logical progression. Is it the mormon God, the Muslim God, Hindu? The God of the Bible? It is safe to say that either they are all wrong, or one is right....but all can't be right. Since there is a general agreement that some sort of God exists to answers for our creation, then one of these God's has to be the right one and the rest must therefore, by default be wrong. Take the top three - Allah, God of the Bible and Hindu/Buddhism. This by far represents practically 95% of the worlds population.

Islam began with the writings of a single man, who had some questionable morals, and who chagned his belief system over time, depending on what worked at the time. Oh and he also died and his body was burried and it is still there. Not only that but be copied parts of the Christian and Jewish Bibles, yet made mistakes doing so. Not the true prophet of God one would expect. We can safely say that Islam is not the right one. Not only that, but...there is no promise of heaven. You could follow the religion to a Tee...and unless God is in a compassionate mood - you're out. Makes the Christian God look like a much better deal.

Hindusim and Budhism I lump together because of so many similarities. Written by a man, who died, and stayed dead, and who wrote that there is no heaven or hell, only the goal of complete non-existance. Sounds like fun. You spend your life, lives as various people or things or creatures, reincarnated over and over again until you get it right, reach that ultimate goal - nothingness. There is no explanation of why we got here, how we got here, where we are going......sounds like the ravings of a lunatic. Makes the Christian God a much better deal.

That leaves us with the God of the Bible. Written over several hundred years, by more than one author, yet speaks to hundreds of different issues in harmony. It gives us answers and explanation as to our origins, our present state and our future. IT gives us hope, meaning and purpose in life. I tspeaks of a arm and loving God who simply wants fellowship with his creation. So much so that in order to prevent us from utter destruction.....gave his one and only son to die in our place. Look no further for the ultimate act of love right there. This is a God who gets it. This is a God who w can understand.

Speaking of God's only Son. More proof. He lived and died, and lived again, and it is recorded in the Gospels as history. And it is supported in other historical texts as well. Why would one ignore the Bible, yet take every other piece of history as fact? The bible is alone as far as historical texts is concerned. No other work compares. It is unique among all written works of the ancient world. And it lives on today. No other work of any faith or religion can say the same thing. No other work has had such an impact on the world, and on the lives of millions and billions of people. It stands alone. Someone mentioned Josh McDowell. He has written many books, but "Evidence that demands a verdict" is by far his most popular. I highly recommend it.

The bible itself is such a remarkable document, so remarkable that no way that it could be the mere work of men, who over centuries could not have collaborated with each other. The prophesies fulfilled alone are miraculous. And the person of Jesus Christ himself and that fact that he fullfilled over 300 prophesies. The odds of one man attempting to complete all of them on purpose is astronomical....way out of the realm of possibility and statistically impossible. All of this is written in the bible. If it were fake, then why would followers of Jesus die for something they "knew" to be false? Makes no sense.

The argument that God gives certain people a scientific mind, and therefore condemns us to hell for that....is full of so many assumption it isn't funny. First off.....there are many many many great great great men of science that also believe in a creator. Einstien anyone, Pastuer, even Stephen Hawking admits to the possibility of a God. And there are thousands more. So the assumption that a scientific mind precludes one from knowing and believing is God is false. It isn't a matter of the mind, but of the heart. Those who take the time to logically and intellectually look at the God of the Bible, and all the available evidence for his existance, will walk away with a belief in God. That doesn't mean that they won't still have questions. We all do. We still do. God doesn't require us to have blind faith. He gives us enough to know that he is real and that Jesus is real. We accept God based on what we can see and know and understand, and we trust God for all the things we don't see or cannot understand. That is faith. That is the definition of faith. Hebrews 11:1.

Here is the deal. If God of the Bible exists.....then He gets to make the rules. Rejecting him because you don't like, or understand his rules, doesn't have anything to do with whether or not God exists, but everything to do with each individuals response to God. You can't deny the existance of God, or question his rules, simply because you don't like them, or don't understand them. The fact remains - God exists. Jesus was the real deal. It is what we do with that info from this point forward that is important. Trying to sidestep the issue by making excuses to believe in God by throwing up obstacles in the form of questions and disagreements as to how the God of the Bible aught to behave...is the ultimate form of ignorance....and ultimately foolish. We an't dictate what God is. God is who he is on hos own terms, not ours. WE just need to accept that this is the way it is. If you don't like it.....become your own God and create your own universe and make up your own set of rules. Let me know how that turns out. I think Lucifer thought the same thing. See how that turned out.

More proof. Personal experience. I can vouch that my life is 100% better when I follow God. When I don't, bad things start to happen. That doesn't mean bad things won't happen to God's people. And it doesn't mean that good things won't happen to bad people ( Look the the NE Patriots...winning 3 rings). I have seen God work in my life, and in the lives of others. I have seen prayers answered. Too much to be a coincidence. Way too much. I don't believe because I was raised that way. I don't believe because it just feels ood to me. I don't believe because it makes sense to me. I believe because I know it is true. I don't know how else to explain it, or make it more simpler than that. It isn't intellectual suicide to belive in the God of the Bible. It really isn't. In fact that is what prrof I needed. I need to be shown logically and intellectually. I was the biggest skeptic there was. I was an ahtiest and believed in science and evolution hook, line and sinker. I used to laugh at religious people. I really did. But something happened, and I realized something. I realized that there really is truth to the bible, and that science isn't all it's cracked up to be.

The bottom line is....what happens in the afterlife is the most important thing we face as humans. It is more important than who to marry, what house to buy, what to teach your children, what education to get, what job to get, how much money to earn/save.....etc.....Often times we put so much thought and time into these earthly decision...we neglect our eternal decisions. It really is that important. Agnostics you really do yourself a disservice thinking that we won't know until we die. That may be too late for you, in fact it will be too late. Athiests.......you better be more sure there isn't a God than I am that there is. Because if you are wrong........it is an eternal error.

As far as hell and God sending people there. Let me ask you this one thing. Where else should you go if you don't believe in the very God that created you? You can't go to heaven, so that is out. The only other place we know of is hell. If you were God, and there are only these two places to put you....where should you go? Look at it from God's perspective for a moment. He created you, you screwed up, He gives you a way out through Jesus, you reject that......what else can he do? It is really your choice. Free will remember? God doesn't condemn you to hell.......you do. Remember that. All God does is make an accounting in the end. Those w\that chose him go to his right, those that rejected him, and His Son, go to his left, and ultimately hell. See God can't simply kill you. He can't make you not-exist. God is a God of creating, not complete destruction. I am talking about the soul here. He can't kill the soul. It is against his nature. Even Satan will spend eternity in hell, not totally snuffed out. I say this because one would think it merciful to just snuff out those who reject him instead of allowing them to suffer for eternity. See I have questions too. The problem is God can't kill the soul. It lives on...somewhere. Where depends on us. So if God has two choices, and heven is out of the question due to one rejection of his Son, then hell is the only logical place. Remember though free will. It is out choice to send ourselves to heaven or hell. God tell us how, and tells us what will happen iof we don't, but the ultimate choice us on us, not him.

Ok I need a break. Later.

Good discussion as usual.:up:

ih8brady
07-09-2009, 08:11 PM
Long post, need more time to reply to the whole thing but have to say Hindu and Buddhism are completely unrelated. One is a polytheistic religion (many gods) and the other is practiced by many as a godless spirituality/religion. Also, Islam is Abrahamic, Allah is just the Arabic word for god. They actually believe Jesus existed and see him as one of their prophets, just not the final one(Mohammad). Also, not to be a smart alec, but I thought you have lived your life as a Christian or are you refering to switching churches or completely converting from something else?

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 08:48 PM
Long post, need more time to reply to the whole thing but have to say Hindu and Buddhism are completely unrelated. One is a polytheistic religion (many gods) and the other is practiced by many as a godless spirituality/religion. Also, Islam is Abrahamic, Allah is just the Arabic word for god. They actually believe Jesus existed and see him as one of their prophets, just not the final one(Mohammad). Also, not to be a smart alec, but I thought you have lived your life as a Christian or are you refering to switching churches or completely converting from something else?And you know this stuff because of what exactly? Something written in books thousands of years old you say? Hmmmm.....interesting. Very interesting.


:err:

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 08:50 PM
So is Jesus. Get over it already.Umm...actually......He isn't dead. Just thought I would throw that out there. You know...for whatever it is worth. Case it ever comes up in a discussion somewhere.

ih8brady
07-09-2009, 09:11 PM
And you know this stuff because of what exactly? Something written in books thousands of years old you say? Hmmmm.....interesting. Very interesting.


:err:


lol, I'm not stating my beliefs, I think all their spirtuality is false, I am just stating what the basic definitions are. If somebody said Christianity was polytheistic or not Abrahamic, I would disagree with that not because I believe Christianity is true but because those are not the actual tennets of the religion. If someone said Jainism was a cult of violence, I'd disagree with that not because Jainism is true but because that is a false charcterizatione, etc, etc.

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 09:23 PM
lol, I'm not stating my beliefs, I think all their spirtuality is false, I am just stating what the basic definitions are. If somebody said Christianity was polytheistic or not Abrahamic, I would disagree with that not because I believe Christianity is true but because those are not the actual tennets of the religion. If someone said Jainism was a cult of violence, I'd disagree with that not because Jainism is true but because that is a false charcterizatione, etc, etc.I know what you meant. I was just messing with the religion forum through your post.

emeraldfin
07-09-2009, 09:41 PM
The bottom line is....what happens in the afterlife is the most important thing we face as humans. It is more important than who to marry, what house to buy, what to teach your children, what education to get, what job to get, how much money to earn/save.....etc.....Often times we put so much thought and time into these earthly decision...we neglect our eternal decisions. It really is that important. Agnostics you really do yourself a disservice thinking that we won't know until we die. That may be too late for you, in fact it will be too late. Athiests.......you better be more sure there isn't a God than I am that there is. Because if you are wrong........it is an eternal error.



Unless you believe in pre-destinaton, then your actions on earth, not just your faith, are what will get you into Heaven.

Dolphan7
07-09-2009, 09:57 PM
Unless you believe in pre-destinaton, then your actions on earth, not just your faith, are what will get you into Heaven.Actually - Pre-Destination states that what we do on earth doesn't matter because one is already deemed to be pre-destined to heaven by God. It is a false doctrine nonetheless.

TedSlimmJr
07-09-2009, 09:58 PM
And you know this stuff because of what exactly? Something written in books thousands of years old you say? Hmmmm.....interesting. Very interesting.


:err:


Exactly...

Vaark
07-11-2009, 08:30 AM
I don't believe in a "God" as it's rigidly and narrowly defined by most organized religions. I'm too empirical to accept any dogma that can't be explained other than by "faith".

However, based on my belief that life and nature could not exist or evolve in such a logical and orderly fashion without a grand design, I do believe there's a supernatural being who's "hands-off" when it comes to guiding or intervening in our individual fates. That's why years ago, studying Rousseau, Voltaire, Locke and others' philosophies, Deism resonated so strongly with me. It's a comfort zone since as a believer in a higher being, I'm neither agnostic nor atheistic, nor judgmental of those who believe differently which is a regretable hallmark of most organized religions.

www.deism.com

GoonBoss
07-11-2009, 10:47 AM
Umm...actually......He isn't dead. Just thought I would throw that out there. You know...for whatever it is worth. Case it ever comes up in a discussion somewhere.

Did you have a beer with him the other day or something?

Being alive in your heart doesn't count.

GoonBoss
07-11-2009, 10:57 AM
LOL. I have been away for a while and I come back to this thread.

Same skeptics, asking endless questions, never really seeking answers but instead proposing more endless questions and proposing their own ideas of God. The problem with coming up with your own idea of what God is, how he should respond, how he makes sense to us is that it leads to several trillion different "views" of what God is. Who would want a God like that? Several of the faithful have made great strides in answering the tough questions, but in the end the hearts of the skeptics are hardened. It reminds me of Romans 1.

Speaking of Romans 1. It has been put forward that there is no proof of God. Now I ask you why would one want to believe in a God that hides himself in mystery? I wouldn't. Thankfully God doesn't hide. He has given us several means to know that he exists. That doesn't preclude one from ignoring every single one of them - free will. Romans 1 says:
Look around. What do you see? The entire universe! All of God's creation is laid out for all of us to see. Look at our world. We see mind boggling complexity, yet organized into laws that scream of design, many yet to be explained (gravity). How did all this begin? Where did it all come from? No possible answers other than the exact creator that created it all. Nothing else makes sense. Can't get matter from non-matter. Can't get life from non-life. Not even in a test tube. Romans 1 simply states that His existance is evident by the world we see around us, and therefore we are all without excuse.

If one can get past the idea that there is a God that created everything, the the next step would be - which God? Sounds like a logical progression. Is it the mormon God, the Muslim God, Hindu? The God of the Bible? It is safe to say that either they are all wrong, or one is right....but all can't be right. Since there is a general agreement that some sort of God exists to answers for our creation, then one of these God's has to be the right one and the rest must therefore, by default be wrong. Take the top three - Allah, God of the Bible and Hindu/Buddhism. This by far represents practically 95% of the worlds population.

Islam began with the writings of a single man, who had some questionable morals, and who chagned his belief system over time, depending on what worked at the time. Oh and he also died and his body was burried and it is still there. Not only that but be copied parts of the Christian and Jewish Bibles, yet made mistakes doing so. Not the true prophet of God one would expect. We can safely say that Islam is not the right one. Not only that, but...there is no promise of heaven. You could follow the religion to a Tee...and unless God is in a compassionate mood - you're out. Makes the Christian God look like a much better deal.

Hindusim and Budhism I lump together because of so many similarities. Written by a man, who died, and stayed dead, and who wrote that there is no heaven or hell, only the goal of complete non-existance. Sounds like fun. You spend your life, lives as various people or things or creatures, reincarnated over and over again until you get it right, reach that ultimate goal - nothingness. There is no explanation of why we got here, how we got here, where we are going......sounds like the ravings of a lunatic. Makes the Christian God a much better deal.

That leaves us with the God of the Bible. Written over several hundred years, by more than one author, yet speaks to hundreds of different issues in harmony. It gives us answers and explanation as to our origins, our present state and our future. IT gives us hope, meaning and purpose in life. I tspeaks of a arm and loving God who simply wants fellowship with his creation. So much so that in order to prevent us from utter destruction.....gave his one and only son to die in our place. Look no further for the ultimate act of love right there. This is a God who gets it. This is a God who w can understand.

Speaking of God's only Son. More proof. He lived and died, and lived again, and it is recorded in the Gospels as history. And it is supported in other historical texts as well. Why would one ignore the Bible, yet take every other piece of history as fact? The bible is alone as far as historical texts is concerned. No other work compares. It is unique among all written works of the ancient world. And it lives on today. No other work of any faith or religion can say the same thing. No other work has had such an impact on the world, and on the lives of millions and billions of people. It stands alone. Someone mentioned Josh McDowell. He has written many books, but "Evidence that demands a verdict" is by far his most popular. I highly recommend it.

The bible itself is such a remarkable document, so remarkable that no way that it could be the mere work of men, who over centuries could not have collaborated with each other. The prophesies fulfilled alone are miraculous. And the person of Jesus Christ himself and that fact that he fullfilled over 300 prophesies. The odds of one man attempting to complete all of them on purpose is astronomical....way out of the realm of possibility and statistically impossible. All of this is written in the bible. If it were fake, then why would followers of Jesus die for something they "knew" to be false? Makes no sense.

The argument that God gives certain people a scientific mind, and therefore condemns us to hell for that....is full of so many assumption it isn't funny. First off.....there are many many many great great great men of science that also believe in a creator. Einstien anyone, Pastuer, even Stephen Hawking admits to the possibility of a God. And there are thousands more. So the assumption that a scientific mind precludes one from knowing and believing is God is false. It isn't a matter of the mind, but of the heart. Those who take the time to logically and intellectually look at the God of the Bible, and all the available evidence for his existance, will walk away with a belief in God. That doesn't mean that they won't still have questions. We all do. We still do. God doesn't require us to have blind faith. He gives us enough to know that he is real and that Jesus is real. We accept God based on what we can see and know and understand, and we trust God for all the things we don't see or cannot understand. That is faith. That is the definition of faith. Hebrews 11:1.

Here is the deal. If God of the Bible exists.....then He gets to make the rules. Rejecting him because you don't like, or understand his rules, doesn't have anything to do with whether or not God exists, but everything to do with each individuals response to God. You can't deny the existance of God, or question his rules, simply because you don't like them, or don't understand them. The fact remains - God exists. Jesus was the real deal. It is what we do with that info from this point forward that is important. Trying to sidestep the issue by making excuses to believe in God by throwing up obstacles in the form of questions and disagreements as to how the God of the Bible aught to behave...is the ultimate form of ignorance....and ultimately foolish. We an't dictate what God is. God is who he is on hos own terms, not ours. WE just need to accept that this is the way it is. If you don't like it.....become your own God and create your own universe and make up your own set of rules. Let me know how that turns out. I think Lucifer thought the same thing. See how that turned out.

More proof. Personal experience. I can vouch that my life is 100% better when I follow God. When I don't, bad things start to happen. That doesn't mean bad things won't happen to God's people. And it doesn't mean that good things won't happen to bad people ( Look the the NE Patriots...winning 3 rings). I have seen God work in my life, and in the lives of others. I have seen prayers answered. Too much to be a coincidence. Way too much. I don't believe because I was raised that way. I don't believe because it just feels ood to me. I don't believe because it makes sense to me. I believe because I know it is true. I don't know how else to explain it, or make it more simpler than that. It isn't intellectual suicide to belive in the God of the Bible. It really isn't. In fact that is what prrof I needed. I need to be shown logically and intellectually. I was the biggest skeptic there was. I was an ahtiest and believed in science and evolution hook, line and sinker. I used to laugh at religious people. I really did. But something happened, and I realized something. I realized that there really is truth to the bible, and that science isn't all it's cracked up to be.

The bottom line is....what happens in the afterlife is the most important thing we face as humans. It is more important than who to marry, what house to buy, what to teach your children, what education to get, what job to get, how much money to earn/save.....etc.....Often times we put so much thought and time into these earthly decision...we neglect our eternal decisions. It really is that important. Agnostics you really do yourself a disservice thinking that we won't know until we die. That may be too late for you, in fact it will be too late. Athiests.......you better be more sure there isn't a God than I am that there is. Because if you are wrong........it is an eternal error.

As far as hell and God sending people there. Let me ask you this one thing. Where else should you go if you don't believe in the very God that created you? You can't go to heaven, so that is out. The only other place we know of is hell. If you were God, and there are only these two places to put you....where should you go? Look at it from God's perspective for a moment. He created you, you screwed up, He gives you a way out through Jesus, you reject that......what else can he do? It is really your choice. Free will remember? God doesn't condemn you to hell.......you do. Remember that. All God does is make an accounting in the end. Those w\that chose him go to his right, those that rejected him, and His Son, go to his left, and ultimately hell. See God can't simply kill you. He can't make you not-exist. God is a God of creating, not complete destruction. I am talking about the soul here. He can't kill the soul. It is against his nature. Even Satan will spend eternity in hell, not totally snuffed out. I say this because one would think it merciful to just snuff out those who reject him instead of allowing them to suffer for eternity. See I have questions too. The problem is God can't kill the soul. It lives on...somewhere. Where depends on us. So if God has two choices, and heven is out of the question due to one rejection of his Son, then hell is the only logical place. Remember though free will. It is out choice to send ourselves to heaven or hell. God tell us how, and tells us what will happen iof we don't, but the ultimate choice us on us, not him.

Ok I need a break. Later.

Good discussion as usual.:up:

A long post. It does nothing but make excuses for nonsensical tennents of belief in a mystical thing that doesn't exist. Bible verses don't help your argument if you are argueing with people who don't belive in the truthfulness of the book you are quoteing.

That "Look all around you" trash is about as tired as disco.

Belief in god comes down to faith. A humanistic, vain, and petty little god put mankind on this earth to do one of two things; Worship him, or spend the rest of your existance in damnation. Honestly, the Christian god sounds like a 16 year old girl.

Once you start asking questions, Christianity doesn't stand up to the light of day.

CashInFist
07-11-2009, 04:00 PM
LOL. I have been away for a while and I come back to this thread.

Same skeptics, asking endless questions, never really seeking answers but instead proposing more endless questions and proposing their own ideas of God. The problem with coming up with your own idea of what God is, how he should respond, how he makes sense to us is that it leads to several trillion different "views" of what God is. Who would want a God like that? Several of the faithful have made great strides in answering the tough questions, but in the end the hearts of the skeptics are hardened. It reminds me of Romans 1.

Speaking of Romans 1. It has been put forward that there is no proof of God. Now I ask you why would one want to believe in a God that hides himself in mystery? I wouldn't. Thankfully God doesn't hide. He has given us several means to know that he exists. That doesn't preclude one from ignoring every single one of them - free will. Romans 1 says:
Look around. What do you see? The entire universe! All of God's creation is laid out for all of us to see. Look at our world. We see mind boggling complexity, yet organized into laws that scream of design, many yet to be explained (gravity). How did all this begin? Where did it all come from? No possible answers other than the exact creator that created it all. Nothing else makes sense. Can't get matter from non-matter. Can't get life from non-life. Not even in a test tube. Romans 1 simply states that His existance is evident by the world we see around us, and therefore we are all without excuse.

If one can get past the idea that there is a God that created everything, the the next step would be - which God? Sounds like a logical progression. Is it the mormon God, the Muslim God, Hindu? The God of the Bible? It is safe to say that either they are all wrong, or one is right....but all can't be right. Since there is a general agreement that some sort of God exists to answers for our creation, then one of these God's has to be the right one and the rest must therefore, by default be wrong. Take the top three - Allah, God of the Bible and Hindu/Buddhism. This by far represents practically 95% of the worlds population.

Islam began with the writings of a single man, who had some questionable morals, and who chagned his belief system over time, depending on what worked at the time. Oh and he also died and his body was burried and it is still there. Not only that but be copied parts of the Christian and Jewish Bibles, yet made mistakes doing so. Not the true prophet of God one would expect. We can safely say that Islam is not the right one. Not only that, but...there is no promise of heaven. You could follow the religion to a Tee...and unless God is in a compassionate mood - you're out. Makes the Christian God look like a much better deal.

Hindusim and Budhism I lump together because of so many similarities. Written by a man, who died, and stayed dead, and who wrote that there is no heaven or hell, only the goal of complete non-existance. Sounds like fun. You spend your life, lives as various people or things or creatures, reincarnated over and over again until you get it right, reach that ultimate goal - nothingness. There is no explanation of why we got here, how we got here, where we are going......sounds like the ravings of a lunatic. Makes the Christian God a much better deal.

That leaves us with the God of the Bible. Written over several hundred years, by more than one author, yet speaks to hundreds of different issues in harmony. It gives us answers and explanation as to our origins, our present state and our future. IT gives us hope, meaning and purpose in life. I tspeaks of a arm and loving God who simply wants fellowship with his creation. So much so that in order to prevent us from utter destruction.....gave his one and only son to die in our place. Look no further for the ultimate act of love right there. This is a God who gets it. This is a God who w can understand.

Speaking of God's only Son. More proof. He lived and died, and lived again, and it is recorded in the Gospels as history. And it is supported in other historical texts as well. Why would one ignore the Bible, yet take every other piece of history as fact? The bible is alone as far as historical texts is concerned. No other work compares. It is unique among all written works of the ancient world. And it lives on today. No other work of any faith or religion can say the same thing. No other work has had such an impact on the world, and on the lives of millions and billions of people. It stands alone. Someone mentioned Josh McDowell. He has written many books, but "Evidence that demands a verdict" is by far his most popular. I highly recommend it.

The bible itself is such a remarkable document, so remarkable that no way that it could be the mere work of men, who over centuries could not have collaborated with each other. The prophesies fulfilled alone are miraculous. And the person of Jesus Christ himself and that fact that he fullfilled over 300 prophesies. The odds of one man attempting to complete all of them on purpose is astronomical....way out of the realm of possibility and statistically impossible. All of this is written in the bible. If it were fake, then why would followers of Jesus die for something they "knew" to be false? Makes no sense.

The argument that God gives certain people a scientific mind, and therefore condemns us to hell for that....is full of so many assumption it isn't funny. First off.....there are many many many great great great men of science that also believe in a creator. Einstien anyone, Pastuer, even Stephen Hawking admits to the possibility of a God. And there are thousands more. So the assumption that a scientific mind precludes one from knowing and believing is God is false. It isn't a matter of the mind, but of the heart. Those who take the time to logically and intellectually look at the God of the Bible, and all the available evidence for his existance, will walk away with a belief in God. That doesn't mean that they won't still have questions. We all do. We still do. God doesn't require us to have blind faith. He gives us enough to know that he is real and that Jesus is real. We accept God based on what we can see and know and understand, and we trust God for all the things we don't see or cannot understand. That is faith. That is the definition of faith. Hebrews 11:1.

Here is the deal. If God of the Bible exists.....then He gets to make the rules. Rejecting him because you don't like, or understand his rules, doesn't have anything to do with whether or not God exists, but everything to do with each individuals response to God. You can't deny the existance of God, or question his rules, simply because you don't like them, or don't understand them. The fact remains - God exists. Jesus was the real deal. It is what we do with that info from this point forward that is important. Trying to sidestep the issue by making excuses to believe in God by throwing up obstacles in the form of questions and disagreements as to how the God of the Bible aught to behave...is the ultimate form of ignorance....and ultimately foolish. We an't dictate what God is. God is who he is on hos own terms, not ours. WE just need to accept that this is the way it is. If you don't like it.....become your own God and create your own universe and make up your own set of rules. Let me know how that turns out. I think Lucifer thought the same thing. See how that turned out.

More proof. Personal experience. I can vouch that my life is 100% better when I follow God. When I don't, bad things start to happen. That doesn't mean bad things won't happen to God's people. And it doesn't mean that good things won't happen to bad people ( Look the the NE Patriots...winning 3 rings). I have seen God work in my life, and in the lives of others. I have seen prayers answered. Too much to be a coincidence. Way too much. I don't believe because I was raised that way. I don't believe because it just feels ood to me. I don't believe because it makes sense to me. I believe because I know it is true. I don't know how else to explain it, or make it more simpler than that. It isn't intellectual suicide to belive in the God of the Bible. It really isn't. In fact that is what prrof I needed. I need to be shown logically and intellectually. I was the biggest skeptic there was. I was an ahtiest and believed in science and evolution hook, line and sinker. I used to laugh at religious people. I really did. But something happened, and I realized something. I realized that there really is truth to the bible, and that science isn't all it's cracked up to be.

The bottom line is....what happens in the afterlife is the most important thing we face as humans. It is more important than who to marry, what house to buy, what to teach your children, what education to get, what job to get, how much money to earn/save.....etc.....Often times we put so much thought and time into these earthly decision...we neglect our eternal decisions. It really is that important. Agnostics you really do yourself a disservice thinking that we won't know until we die. That may be too late for you, in fact it will be too late. Athiests.......you better be more sure there isn't a God than I am that there is. Because if you are wrong........it is an eternal error.

As far as hell and God sending people there. Let me ask you this one thing. Where else should you go if you don't believe in the very God that created you? You can't go to heaven, so that is out. The only other place we know of is hell. If you were God, and there are only these two places to put you....where should you go? Look at it from God's perspective for a moment. He created you, you screwed up, He gives you a way out through Jesus, you reject that......what else can he do? It is really your choice. Free will remember? God doesn't condemn you to hell.......you do. Remember that. All God does is make an accounting in the end. Those w\that chose him go to his right, those that rejected him, and His Son, go to his left, and ultimately hell. See God can't simply kill you. He can't make you not-exist. God is a God of creating, not complete destruction. I am talking about the soul here. He can't kill the soul. It is against his nature. Even Satan will spend eternity in hell, not totally snuffed out. I say this because one would think it merciful to just snuff out those who reject him instead of allowing them to suffer for eternity. See I have questions too. The problem is God can't kill the soul. It lives on...somewhere. Where depends on us. So if God has two choices, and heven is out of the question due to one rejection of his Son, then hell is the only logical place. Remember though free will. It is out choice to send ourselves to heaven or hell. God tell us how, and tells us what will happen iof we don't, but the ultimate choice us on us, not him.

Ok I need a break. Later.

Good discussion as usual.:up:


I would like to nominate this post for, "POST OF THE MONTH", in the Religion Forum.

Also, this is the kind of posts that make a case for changing the system so that you can "Thank" someone 2x for the same post!

:thanks::up::woot::hi5:

HansMojo
07-11-2009, 04:37 PM
But we all go to hell if we use our free will and don't choose god, right?

So, in the end, the only reason we were put here is to worship god. It's the right thing. Now, we have free will which he granted us, Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, the catch is.....You choose wrong and you go to hell to suffer for eternity.

Why the hell did he put us here then? Doesn't it seem in the least bit nonsensical to you that we have salvation, which we wouldn't need in the first place if we were not put here by god...OR, we go to hell to suffer forever?

This is akin to my wife and I having a child who is destined to do nothing bu love us, mow the grass, and, clean the house. Should he choose to try something else, well that's fine...In love, we will burn him to death in the fireplace.

It makes about the same sense.
IMHO, the Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer in Hell for all of eternity. Hell is really an event...an ending to sin and suffering more than purely being a place. Also, IMHO God created humanity for a number of different reasons and I'll mention a couple below, but I don't believe it was solely to worship Him

One reason God created us was simply because God wanted children. This is probably best understood by those who have desired at some point in their lives to have children of their own. For example, I have friends who spent 10s of thousands of dollars on in vitro fertilization because having their own kids was an all consuming desire of theirs. They wanted kids more than anything else and money was no object. For people who have never wanted kids, it would be hard to understand why my friends would spend all that money when they could have just adopted a dog or something if they were lonely or whatever. For me, I didn't know I really wanted kids until I had them. Now that I have, I can't imagine life without them and they are the greatest joys of my life, but some people know before they become parents.

Another reason why God created us is similar to why many artists produce art, and many musicians write/play music. It's within them (it's their nature) to create...so they do. Some do it for the money only, but certainly not all. It would be hard for these people not to produce art/music because it is who they are and it is what brings them joy. God is the Creator, so He creates. It is His nature to do so and it brings Him joy.

God desires our love and our fellowship. Worshipping Him is simply the natural result of being in the presence of the being who created all things and yet, sacrificed so much because of His great love for us. For me, I can't help but worship the God whom I love. It would be unnatural for me to not worship Him because of what I believe about Him. I am not in any way coerced to do so.

IMHO, God does not want/desire false worship. If we worship Him because we feel forced into doing so then He doesn't want it and it serves no purpose. God desires our love...because we are His children and because He loves us. He desires our worship simply because it is the natural/normal result of truly knowing Him. IMHO, If we *truly know* Him and do not worship Him, it is evidence that there is something seriously wrong with us (not addressing those who are ignorant for whatever reason here). To me, it would be like if I saved someone's life, and then bought them a car and a house and in return they spit in my face, stole all my belongings, and shot my dog. That would be an unnatural response to my actions and would be evidence that there is at best a serious misunderstanding and at worst something seriously wrong with that person. I would wonder what other things they were capable of. My point is simply that God desires our fellowship because He loves us and our worship is merely the natural response of a created being to their Creator. It is evidence of a healthy/normal relationship. In other words, worship is not the point but if it is missing, then there is something wrong and this is evidence of a greater problem which would be a concern for God...IMHO.

Finally, I don't believe that the Bible teaches that God condemns anyone to suffer for eternity. This belief is an interpretation of scripture widely held, but I do not believe it takes into account all scripture on the matter appropriately. IMHO, God gives all of us this life, whatever it may bring, and offers us something beyond this life if we are interested in putting away our sin and living in fellowship with Him for all eternity (because we love Him and want to, not because we are coerced to do so). One of the reasons God wants us to put away our sin is because sin leads to so much suffering.

On the other hand, if we exercise our free will and choose to embrace our sin and reject God and His way (again not addressing the truly ignorant here) then He accepts this decision and still gives us this life but afterwords nothing more. In the end (sometime in the future) the earth will be cleansed by fire and created anew. The wicked who are left behind (not raptured to Heaven at the Second Coming) will be burned up (completely) along with the earth...IMHO. It will be a final end to sin and suffering.

Further, based on certain points made in Revelation, I personally believe that things will become much more obvious right before this end. There will be little doubt in anyone's mind that God/Satan is real etc. and the decision to reject God and embrace sin will not be made in ignorance. There will be great deception, yes, but this pertains more to theological details rather than the big picture questions such as, is God real or not...IMHO.

Anyway, sorry I'm late to the discussion (been on vacation). I haven't read through all the posts yet (but found yours to be especially interesting and wanted to throw in my 2 cents before moving on), so it's possible that this was all already discussed and if so I apologize for rehashing old stuff.

FinFrenzy
07-11-2009, 05:15 PM
A long post. It does nothing but make excuses for nonsensical tennents of belief in a mystical thing that doesn't exist. Bible verses don't help your argument if you are argueing with people who don't belive in the truthfulness of the book you are quoteing.

That "Look all around you" trash is about as tired as disco.

Belief in god comes down to faith. A humanistic, vain, and petty little god put mankind on this earth to do one of two things; Worship him, or spend the rest of your existance in damnation. Honestly, the Christian god sounds like a 16 year old girl.

Once you start asking questions, Christianity doesn't stand up to the light of day.

I beg to differ once you start asking questions it tends to make sense.


BTW damnation comes when you worship false (pagan) gods.

CashInFist
07-11-2009, 07:16 PM
Wow man, seriously? So because someone doesn't believe the bible is real, it was too complex for them? You know, you're absolutely right. A talking snake convincing Adam and Eve to eat a forbidden apple is pretty complex. So complex, in fact, that the only other place I'd see any plot as complex as that is on Cartoon Network. Oh yeah, how about the guy living in a whale for 7 days? A person. Living. Inside a whale. Pretty complex eh? Moses parting the red sea? A single man moving an entire ocean? Need I go on...?


LOL...Are you fighting Goon's battles for him now?...PRICELESS...:lol2:

Locke
07-11-2009, 08:31 PM
LOL...Are you fighting Goon's battles for him now?...PRICELESS...:lol2:

No, I just can't help but respond when I see you spew your condescending horse ****...

HansMojo
07-11-2009, 09:37 PM
This doesn't answer my question though. All you stated is that no one is condemned to hell.

If a person has been given a scientific mind by God, then he is actually unable to believe something without proof. If God will not give proof of his existence, and requires people to just believe, then someone who requires proof of everything, as given to them by God, would be condemned to hell. That doesn't seem very righteous to me....
Scientific proof is an interesting discussion. CKB, a scientist who used to post here, enlightened me to the idea that scientists don't actually need proof to believe in a scientific theory. Rather, they need the theory to be testable/falsifiable and of course supported by some kind of evidence. If the theory makes sense to them and is supported by evidence (even if the evidence could support other mutually exclusive theories as well), the theory in question can be accepted until someone comes along with a test that disproves the theory. In other words, it doesn't have to be proven, it just has to not be disproven. He explains it much better than me, but does that make sense how I've worded it?

Anyway, I personally believe that if you are open to God, He will give you the evidence you need at some point in your life to accept Him into your life. Maybe He already has. Maybe He is waiting for the appropriate time to do so. Of course I have no way of knowing, one way or another, but I do believe that He loves you very much, has a plan for your life here on earth and wants to give you so much more beyond this life.

Of course, I could be mistaken, but that is what I personally believe with every fiber of my being. :)

HansMojo
07-11-2009, 10:00 PM
I'm not looking for answers to anything, especially not on the internet. I have a pretty firm personal belief about whats going on, and that does involve a higher power, but not the Christian version.

As for a scientific mind, I suppose its hard to understand the concept of needing proof if you don't have one. Growing up, I wish I could tell you how much I wanted to believe in an all-powerful God and heaven, but could never ever do so without my brain automatically wondering things that couldn't be answered. There was no choosing to doubt. The doubts were just there. I can assure you, there is no choice for me in the matter. I don't believe because there are a heck of a lot more questions than answers. Its the same reason I don't believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, or the Boogie man. They might be real. Anytime someone has tried to prove it, they end up with more questions than they started out with though. I could choose to believe, but it would be a superficial belief, with me just ignoring the questions. That isn't belief at all....

I completely agree with your statement that I bolded above. :up:

From a religious standpoint, God desires to have a genuine relationship with us rather than some superficial belief or worship that is based on a fear of punishment or even a hope for reward. Of course, those things can sometimes get a person moving in the right direction, and like any parent, God has used these methods to get the ball moving and I've done the same thing with my own kids. For example, I've threatened to punish my kids if they continued in some undesirable behavior or promised to reward them for good behavior in an attempt to motivate them, but in the end, I really just want them to mature past this to where they are doing right things because they have understanding and because they want to do right things.

IMHO, God is looking for something that is real from us. The first step is for someone to be open to God. I believe that anyone that is genuinely open to God, will be given what they need to find Him. It is also helpful if we sincerely invite Him into our hearts/minds.

HansMojo
07-11-2009, 11:28 PM
it's funny because i see where both of you are coming from - but they are answering your question. the problem is, your question is fundamentally wrong. you are not automatically condemned to hell if you have a scientific mind. just because you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you have already made up your mind - which is fine - but don't pretend you're still trying. the whole going to hell thing because you won't accept anything without proof is a full on copout.

i will attempt to answer your question in the manner in which you want it to be answered. God did not want a planet of zombies that were blindly following him because - what fun would that be? why offer up your only son to die for everyone's sins if it's just going to create a world full of nothins? so He gave us scientific minds and free will - not to condemn us to hell - but to figure it out for our damn selves. faith and science do not necessarily contradict each other - science just thinks it does. science is funny that way.

there are many, many people who have set out to disprove the bible - like cash was saying - that ended up doing exactly the opposite. one really good book that i recommend is called 'evidence that demands a verdict' by a guy named josh mcdowell. he was an atheist that got converted during his research. do even read that as an atheist - it's still pretty convincing.

i wish i believed like i think i should - but i also have way too many unanswered questions. the difference between us is i haven't ruled it out yet. my biggest problem is the amount of Christians as compared to the other main religions. according to Christianity, basically all of india, asia, etc are going to hell b/c they were born in the wrong place and therefore were born into the wrong religion. these people dedicate their lives to their respective religions - and what do they get for it according to Christianity? an eternity of fire and brimstone. according to the bible, the vast majority of people on earth are going to hell. even the majority of people who are 'Christians' are going to hell because they don't/didn't live totally for God - which is what you're supposed to do. that fugging sucks. yeah, i know Christianity was first and it is worldwide but it definitely doesn't speak for the entire globe. that's the main thing i can't get past. why have a world full of people that you supposedly love when most of them are going to hell? that is completely insane.

I think I might be able to offer you some comfort/reassurance regarding this topic.

Most Christians agree that the natural heart of man (post the Fall) is carnal, opposed to God, and a slave to sin. God is seeking to change us by writing His law of love on our heart and this can only be done if we are willing to allow Him to do so. God will not force Himself on anyone. That is standard Christian belief. However, this next part is not standard though it is gaining traction within the church.

To me, there is a difference between ignorance and rebellion and God has made provision for all of His children...yes, even those following/not following another religion in ignorance (rebellion/willful rejection is a different story).

IMHO, God seeks to write His law of love on everyone's heart and we can either accept or reject this great work of His and we can do this regardless of whether we know the process is possible and achieved only because of and through what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Either way, the end result is the same (depending on our response to His efforts of course - i.e. hardening our hearts to Him or cooperating with Him). Romans 2:14-16 is a very appropriate text for this topic.

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%202:14-17;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27977A))instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%202:14-17;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27978B))the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%202:14-17;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27979C))according to my gospel, (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%202:14-17;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27979D))God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

If man is carnal and naturally opposed to God's law, the only way the law can be found to be written on anyone's heart is if they cooperated with God to allow Him to write them there! Since Romans states this will be the case with some who had not received the Law, we must assume these folks cooperated with God to allow Him to put it there right? Or is God's law written on everyone's heart already? According to scripture, God wants to put the law in our hearts implying it isn't there already:

I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:33

IMHO, our response to His efforts, whether we know we are responding to Him or not, is what is critical...not whether we score an A+ on some theological test score, or whether we are a Jew or a Gentile, or whatever.

Obviously God is interested in having us spread the Gospel. Christianity is the most direct approach to having a relationship with the Biblical Creator, but God has apparently made provision for those in true ignorance and for that I am grateful.

I want to restate though that I do believe that it is only because of and through Jesus that anyone is saved...but I also believe that God will not condemn sincere people who have cooperated with Him and allowed Him to write His law on their hearts just because they were in ignorance regarding Jesus Christ. God knows the heart and can tell the difference between true ignorance and something else.

My theory is that this works because people who have allowed God to write His laws on their hearts in this life...even if they are ignorant of the Truth as it is in Jesus...will accept Jesus when everything is revealed to them and that is why they are savable. Those who reject God's efforts to write His laws on their hearts for whatever reason would not accept Him as evidenced by their lack of cooperation with God. They would reject Christ even with full knowledge and that is why they will be condemned. They are not condemned for ignorance, or for being born in the wrong place...but for rejecting the efforts of God to save them.

Of course, I could be wrong, but that is what I believe and thanks to Romans 2 and many other texts regarding God's character, I believe it is a Biblical understanding though it is not standard Christian theology. Peace.

Pandarilla 72
07-12-2009, 10:36 PM
Bring it on (I was born for this thread)!

Anyone who does'nt believe in God, please explain dreaming to me!

Explain to me how everyone has a story of a miracle that happened to them personally!

Explain to me how you know when you are angry, lost, happy, etc. if you yourself are not just a piece of God's consciousness?

Even the greatest of saints would tell you they still argue with God over the need for pain, suffering, and overall red tape in the universe. Yet, they would never relinquish or deny that state of bliss when they are in our Father's presence.

Locke
07-12-2009, 11:22 PM
Bring it on (I was born for this thread)!

Anyone who does'nt believe in God, please explain dreaming to me!

Explain to me how everyone has a story of a miracle that happened to them personally!

Explain to me how you know when you are angry, lost, happy, etc. if you yourself are not just a piece of God's consciousness?

Even the greatest of saints would tell you they still argue with God over the need for pain, suffering, and overall red tape in the universe. Yet, they would never relinquish or deny that state of bliss when they are in our Father's presence.

Sleep and dreaming are regulated by the thalamus. Patients with damage to the thalamus have problems with their sleep cycle, and reaching the REM stage of sleep. They also report not having dreams, or possibly just not being able to remember them. EEGs and CAT scans show specific regions of the frontal lobes active when dreaming. The frontal lobes are widely agreed upon to be where most memory is stored. This implies that your memories are either being activated, or are the source, of much dream content. If God was putting dreams in your head, then damage to the thalamus would have zero effect on your ability to dream. There is still a lot that isn't known about dreaming and the brain, but there is definitely a link between the thalamus and the frontal cortex.

Emotions are much easier. Emotional states have found to have different levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine depending on the emotion. For example, someone who is depressed is given an SSRI generally, which limits the amount of serotonin that neurons take back into a cell after an action potental. This balances the amount of serotonin in their brain, and relieves depression. Schizophrenia is treated by dopamine antagonists, which limits the amount of dopamine taken into neurons. When this excess dopamine is eliminated from the brain, schizophrenics don't experience their symptoms as much, or at all if the right dosage is found. How could these drugs have an effect on emotion if it was a piece of God's consciousness...?

Locke
07-12-2009, 11:59 PM
Sleep and dreaming are regulated by the thalamus. Patients with damage to the thalamus have problems with their sleep cycle, and reaching the REM stage of sleep. They also report not having dreams, or possibly just not being able to remember them. EEGs and CAT scans show specific regions of the frontal lobes active when dreaming. The frontal lobes are widely agreed upon to be where most memory is stored. This implies that your memories are either being activated, or are the source, of much dream content. If God was putting dreams in your head, then damage to the thalamus would have zero effect on your ability to dream. There is still a lot that isn't known about dreaming and the brain, but there is definitely a link between the thalamus and the frontal cortex.

Emotions are much easier. Emotional states have found to have different levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine depending on the emotion. For example, someone who is depressed is given an SSRI generally, which limits the amount of serotonin that neurons take back into a cell after an action potental. This balances the amount of serotonin in their brain, and relieves depression. Schizophrenia is treated by dopamine antagonists, which limits the amount of dopamine taken into neurons. When this excess dopamine is eliminated from the brain, schizophrenics don't experience their symptoms as much, or at all if the right dosage is found. How could these drugs have an effect on emotion if it was a piece of God's consciousness...?

Self correction, Schizophrenia isn't an emotional disorider. Bipolar is a better example...

CashInFist
07-13-2009, 01:45 AM
Self correction, Schizophrenia isn't an emotional disorider. Bipolar is a better example...


You'll find God...eventually.

Good thing He has more patience than I do. :lol:

Arsenal WV
07-13-2009, 02:00 AM
I recently have been getting into the bible more and more over the past few weeks...

Do I believe in God or A God? Yes I do. I believe in a higher power

Too much stuff has happened in my life for there not to be a higher power.


To be honest, I'm still getting a feel for the bible. I enjoy reading it and some of the words in there are very powerful and moving. While this may be just what I believe. I'd like to share a quote with you from the bible that applies to me...maybe not everybody. But im guessing a few



For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18

HansMojo
07-13-2009, 03:07 AM
I recently have been getting into the bible more and more over the past few weeks...

Do I believe in God or A God? Yes I do. I believe in a higher power

Too much stuff has happened in my life for there not to be a higher power.


To be honest, I'm still getting a feel for the bible. I enjoy reading it and some of the words in there are very powerful and moving. While this may be just what I believe. I'd like to share a quote with you from the bible that applies to me...maybe not everybody. But im guessing a few



For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18
That's great to hear man. I feel you on the text too. :up:

Locke
07-13-2009, 03:35 AM
You'll find God...eventually.

Good thing He has more patience than I do. :lol:

With Christians like you running around, I highly doubt that... :up:

PhinzN703
07-13-2009, 01:27 PM
Bring it on (I was born for this thread)!

Anyone who does'nt believe in God, please explain dreaming to me!

Explain to me how everyone has a story of a miracle that happened to them personally!

Explain to me how you know when you are angry, lost, happy, etc. if you yourself are not just a piece of God's consciousness?

Even the greatest of saints would tell you they still argue with God over the need for pain, suffering, and overall red tape in the universe. Yet, they would never relinquish or deny that state of bliss when they are in our Father's presence.

No miracles in my life friend ;)

Dolphan7
07-13-2009, 02:04 PM
Did you have a beer with him the other day or something?

Being alive in your heart doesn't count.

Fact: Jesus lived.

Fact: Jesus died.

Fact: Jesus rose again on the 3rd day and was seen by hundreds, for several weeks after.

He lives again.

If not....show me the bones!

Dolphan7
07-13-2009, 02:37 PM
A long post. It does nothing but make excuses for nonsensical tennents of belief in a mystical thing that doesn't exist. Bible verses don't help your argument if you are argueing with people who don't belive in the truthfulness of the book you are quoteing.

That "Look all around you" trash is about as tired as disco.

Belief in god comes down to faith. A humanistic, vain, and petty little god put mankind on this earth to do one of two things; Worship him, or spend the rest of your existance in damnation. Honestly, the Christian god sounds like a 16 year old girl.

Once you start asking questions, Christianity doesn't stand up to the light of day.You yourself have claimed some sort of belief in God. Tell us your "religion", so that we may dissect it and maybe at some point make fun of it as well, just as you do Christianity.

The whole point is......If God exists, which you have already alluded to.....then does his nature and character depend on whatever each individual thinks in his own mind? If that is the case, then each of us can make God to be.... well.....whatever we want Him to be. He can be the infidel killing God of Allah, he can be the warm and loving pacifist, and everything inbetween. God can be everything to everyone and anything......not standing up for himself, not defining himself, but allowing himself to be defined by each individual.......not really a God I would want to put my faith in. There would be no right or wrong God, therefore there would be no right or wrong morality. There would be no foundation for right and wrong. It would be every man for himself, each doing what is right in his own mind. But this is "your" God. This is the ultimate result of the mindset you have outlined. From your viewpoint - My God would not allow those named Goonboss into heaven. Your God would not allow anyone named D7 into heaven. See the conflict. This is why God must be static, not up to the individuals own depiction.

Any concept of an all powerful omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient God demands that said God would define Himself, and make himself evident to His creation. His character and attributes would already be set and defined. He would be who he is because that is who he is, not according to some freethinking imaginations of man, the very product of His creation. Makes no sense. God creates, yet allows his creation to define the very being who created them? This is in essence what your mindset ultimately results in. This may make sense to you, but it doesn't to me. So you think Christianity makes no sense to you, well your view makes even less sense to me.

Don't give up on the Christian God, because he hasn't given up on you. It may seem nonsensical to you, but you wouldn't be the first....nor the last....to think Christianity to be foolish. I was one of those individuals. And I am the biggest skeptic there is, and I know beyond all doubt how we got here, who we are....and why...and that the Christian God is the real deal. Whether I believe it or not - God still exists.

PhinzN703
07-13-2009, 03:34 PM
Fact: Jesus lived.

Fact: Jesus died.

Fact: Jesus rose again on the 3rd day and was seen by hundreds, for several weeks after.

He lives again.

If not....show me the bones!

Just a question here, are you saying that b/c the bones haven't been found, this means he's alive now?

Dolphan7
07-13-2009, 05:36 PM
Just a question here, are you saying that b/c the bones haven't been found, this means he's alive now?No, not at all. Jesus is alive today because he rose from the dead and was seen by hundreds for several weeks after this miraculous event.

If one was to attempt to explain this as false, all they have to do is show me the bones of Jesus.

PhinzN703
07-14-2009, 09:34 AM
No, not at all. Jesus is alive today because he rose from the dead and was seen by hundreds for several weeks after this miraculous event.

If one was to attempt to explain this as false, all they have to do is show me the bones of Jesus.

Understood. But that's what I asked. If I was to say this didn't happen, you ask to see the bones. I was only asking my question b/c I didn't think that if his bones were never found that it didn't mean he died and stayed dead.

HansMojo
07-14-2009, 10:12 AM
Understood. But that's what I asked. If I was to say this didn't happen, you ask to see the bones. I was only asking my question b/c I didn't think that if his bones were never found that it didn't mean he died and stayed dead.
Of course, the missing bones of Christ isn't proof (certainly not to most non-believers) that He rose from the dead, but it is compelling circumstantial evidence when you think of how the resurrection affected not only the Jewish leadership of the time, but the Romans as well. Both of these groups were adversely affected by the explosion of Christianity that took place after and because Christ arose from the dead. Both groups would have liked to discredit the idea that Christ was resurrected. It would have been difficult to do so however considering all the eye witness accounts of a living Jesus as He continued to walk amongst men for a couple weeks before returning to Heaven.

Again, it's not proof. But it is something that adds to the faith of those who have their own personal evidence/experience with Jesus Christ. IMHO.

PhinzN703
07-14-2009, 10:47 AM
Of course, the missing bones of Christ isn't proof that He rose from the dead, but it is compelling circumstantial evidence when you think of how the resurrection affected not only the Jewish leadership of the time, but the Romans as well. Both of these groups were adversely affected by the explosion of Christianity that took place after and because Christ arose from the dead. Both groups would have liked to discredit the idea that Christ was resurrected. It would have been difficult to do so however considering all the eye witness accounts of a living Jesus as He continued to walk amongst men for a couple weeks before returning to Heaven.

Again, it's not proof. But it is something that adds to the faith of those who have their own personal evidence/experience with Jesus Christ. IMHO.

Whatever happened, it certainly is an interesting subject ;)

HansMojo
07-14-2009, 03:14 PM
Whatever happened, it certainly is an interesting subject ;)
Definitely! :hi5:

rev kev
07-15-2009, 11:52 AM
Of course, the missing bones of Christ isn't proof (certainly not to most non-believers) that He rose from the dead, but it is compelling circumstantial evidence when you think of how the resurrection affected not only the Jewish leadership of the time, but the Romans as well. Both of these groups were adversely affected by the explosion of Christianity that took place after and because Christ arose from the dead. Both groups would have liked to discredit the idea that Christ was resurrected. It would have been difficult to do so however considering all the eye witness accounts of a living Jesus as He continued to walk amongst men for a couple weeks before returning to Heaven.

Again, it's not proof. But it is something that adds to the faith of those who have their own personal evidence/experience with Jesus Christ. IMHO.

In Israel ten years ago... I visited the Garden Tomb site not the Holy Church of the Sepulchre and found some interesting things about the possible location of Jesus burial - are you familiar with this location...? Do you know much about it...?

onebaud
07-15-2009, 11:55 AM
What you believe is what you believe. You cannot know unless God talks to you. If that happens you are a nut and not to be believed.

HansMojo
07-15-2009, 01:48 PM
In Israel ten years ago... I visited the Garden Tomb site not the Holy Church of the Sepulchre and found some interesting things about the possible location of Jesus burial - are you familiar with this location...? Do you know much about it...?

I've read a little, but I've never been to the Holy Land (but I have been to The Holy Land Experience :lol:). Someday I would love to visit. In fact, I would love, love, love, lovie love, love it.

So what did you discover? Please share...

HansMojo
07-15-2009, 02:17 PM
What you believe is what you believe. You cannot know unless God talks to you. If that happens you are a nut and not to be believed.
There is some obvious truth to your statement. For example, I'm convinced that God is real and in fact I believe I have an active relationship with Him. And when unbelievers ask for evidence and Christians share some of their personal experiences with God, the unbelievers think we're nuts. Happens all the time. :lol:

For me, I thoroughly enjoy learning about new scientific discoveries regarding evolution/our origins, but I read them through my "Christian glasses" and fully expect that the scientific community will actually become more religious as more is discovered about the universe we live in. I admit my obvious bias.

Typically, a person's mind can't be changed unless they are open to or even want it to be changed. But I do believe that we all go through phases and sometimes we are more open to new ideas than we might have previously been. Fortunately for Christians, it is God that does the "converting" and it's just our job to testify (and of course to love our neighbors as ourselves).

rev kev
07-15-2009, 02:47 PM
I've read a little, but I've never been to the Holy Land (but I have been to The Holy Land Experience :lol:). Someday I would love to visit. In fact, I would love, love, love, lovie love, love it.

So what did you discover? Please share...

Yes you would love it...!

The grave-site appears to be in a garden but there are some telling features that it may have been a vineyard at one point... it's a walk-in grave..., the grave had only one bed carved out from the rock... this is strange because whole familes were buried together so it leaves the question "why?" why were there no other beds carved out as well..., today there are bars put across so you can only peer in...

There is a logo carved in the side of the outter wall of the grave that has reportedly been dated back to the early Christian church... Both Christian and non-Christians have agreed on this...

So people may very likely been hanging around this garden holding vigil and tribute..., maybe Sunday services - Ha

It makes sense that Joseph who took the body had the coin..., owned his own burial site particularly if it was in his own Vineyard..., interestingly the Golgotha site is lierally about 100 feet away from the actually gravesite... the church of Scotland I believe oversees this interesting garden... It's a must see..., the Rock wall of Golgotha "where a skull can be made from the stone" looks upon a bus depot...

Of course Catholics and others believe in the tradiitional buriel site at the Holy Church of the Sepulchre. This site of Jesus' buriel doesn't make sense... that Jesus a criminal would be buried within the city of Jeruslaem walls is I believe an error...

HansMojo
07-15-2009, 03:08 PM
Yes you would love it...!

The grave-site appears to be in a garden but there are some telling features that it may have been a vineyard at one point... it's a walk-in grave..., the grave had only one bed carved out from the rock... this is strange because whole familes were buried together so it leaves the question "why?" why were there no other beds carved out as well..., today there are bars put across so you can only peer in...

There is a logo carved in the side of the outter wall of the grave that has reportedly been dated back to the early Christian church... Both Christian and non-Christians have agreed on this...

So people may very likely been hanging around this garden holding vigil and tribute..., maybe Sunday services - Ha

It makes sense that Joseph who took the body had the coin..., owned his own burial site particularly if it was in his own Vineyard..., interestingly the Golgotha site is lierally about 100 feet away from the actually gravesite... the church of Scotland I believe oversees this interesting garden... It's a must see..., the Rock wall of Golgotha "where a skull can be made from the stone" looks upon a bus depot...

Of course Catholics and others believe in the tradiitional buriel site at the Holy Church of the Sepulchre. This site of Jesus' buriel doesn't make sense... that Jesus a criminal would be buried within the city of Jeruslaem walls is I believe an error...
Yeah, sometime I've gotta get over there and check it out. I love that kind of stuff. Obviously from a spiritual perspective, if it was absolutely necessary for our Faith to know the exact site of His burial, I've got no doubt that God would have made it pretty clear to us (same with topics like the actual birth date of Christ, actual date of His death/resurrection etc.)...but from an exploration, curiosity, quest for knowledge, etc. type of perspective, I would love to get over there and check it out. Very cool stuff. Some day... :woot:

JT-forpresident
07-15-2009, 03:29 PM
The resurrection of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago, you may have heard of it in fleeting conversation while in elevators, shopping malls and Fox News. It was something else man, you gotta see what everyone is saying! :up:

so you got to see that ressurection ? dude you're lucky

as for my answer, i don't believe in god, i'm atheist but close to being agnostic

X-Pacolypse
07-15-2009, 08:25 PM
A long post. It does nothing but make excuses for nonsensical tennents of belief in a mystical thing that doesn't exist. Bible verses don't help your argument if you are argueing with people who don't belive in the truthfulness of the book you are quoteing.

That "Look all around you" trash is about as tired as disco.

Belief in god comes down to faith. A humanistic, vain, and petty little god put mankind on this earth to do one of two things; Worship him, or spend the rest of your existance in damnation. Honestly, the Christian god sounds like a 16 year old girl.

Once you start asking questions, Christianity doesn't stand up to the light of day.

Did somebody say disco?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAjmuA1HDk

rev kev
07-16-2009, 12:27 AM
Yeah, sometime I've gotta get over there and check it out. I love that kind of stuff. Obviously from a spiritual perspective, if it was absolutely necessary for our Faith to know the exact site of His burial, I've got no doubt that God would have made it pretty clear to us (same with topics like the actual birth date of Christ, actual date of His death/resurrection etc.)...but from an exploration, curiosity, quest for knowledge, etc. type of perspective, I would love to get over there and check it out. Very cool stuff. Some day... :woot:

The pictures of the Garden tomb and Golgotha are all over the web..., this isn't a secret..., but at the time I had no clue of these finer details..., of course it takes faith to believe (ask Doubting Thomas) and the Scottish minister who was caring for the Garden Tomb made that very clear...

rev kev
07-16-2009, 12:32 AM
so you got to see that ressurection ? dude you're lucky

as for my answer, i don't believe in god, i'm atheist but close to being agnostic

JT my friend...

Did you see the wind today...? Or signs that there was wind...? I would say you saw signs of wind and not the wind itself...

There are strong signs that there was a resurrection..., but it takes faith to believe...,

rev kev
07-16-2009, 12:33 AM
Did somebody say disco?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAjmuA1HDk

I'm all over disco X-

JimToss
07-17-2009, 06:06 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a God.
I also am a Christian and have no doubt, that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world.

Until about a year ago, I could not say that without a twinge in my heart saying "maybe I'm wrong."
I have honestly experienced powerful things that have absolutely no explanation except a personal touch from God.
If I were to elaborate, most would probably think I was crazy/lying. Which is completely understandable because I wouldn't have either.

JimToss
07-18-2009, 01:20 AM
I'm gonna go back to back posts. A nearly unprecedented feat in FinHeaven lore.

Here is my recommendation to all people in doubt.
Search your heart for the answer. Talk to God, even if you don't believe in him (although this seems as though it is a fruitless affair.)
Ask him to fill you with what you have been missing. Again probably something that also seems to not exist. But, it is there. Talk to any real Christian (again, remarkably up to interpretation.) There is something electric to them. You may see it as hocky, religious,fool hardy, or just plain stupid, but I promise it is something significant.

Now when it is asked it shouldn't be for your own good/knowledge, it honestly has to be something through you for him. Which means that you also truly have to mean it. Its a surrender, but also a bond making. In my incredibly short experience, you must take true steps towards God before it is returned. But, when it is it is tenfold. He rewards steps out into faith. But faith is the first step. Really is a vicious philosophical circle.

There honestly is nothing anyone can say that can convince someone one way or the other, it truly is an experience. Its a word that many have used on this board, but doesn't have a lot of meaning to someone who has not had it.

I understand that I am not making much sense to any doubters, and I completely understand that. I looked at many people as "crazy Christians," until all of a sudden I became one.

It's not about doing the right thing because of some fear of going to "Hell" its about doing the right thing as a way of growing closer to God in a covenant(the greatest gift from God.) You don't want to break that, and it literally pains you to do so.

I realize none of this makes any sense, but it never would have to me either. To be honest I never would have seen myself typing something like this. The fact that I am is a miracle to me in itself.

I shall now take my place as a looney on this board.

TedSlimmJr
07-18-2009, 03:43 AM
"This board" is nothing.....Nothing.....

NOTHING....


If any of us could bring so much as ONE person closer to what REALLY matters.....that's all that God could ask...

But you're right.....it's a surrender....skepticism is the nature of man kind...but not his heart....there's not a person in here that can say that somewhere in there deepest heart of hearts....that God doesn't tug at the strings....I don't care what they type....

Pandarilla 72
09-29-2009, 05:19 AM
The funniest thing about this thread is that I'd still want to hang out with the Atheists and agnostics and goon boss in hell:chuckle:.

It's like master would always say "better to live in hell with one wise man than to live in heaven with 10 fools, because the wise man would make hell seem like heaven and the fools would make heaven seem like hell."

Dolphin39
09-30-2009, 01:03 PM
Of course I believe in God! He sent his son Jesus to be our savior!

On day, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! :up:

Tetragrammaton
09-30-2009, 01:12 PM
there's not a person in here that can say that somewhere in there deepest heart of hearts....that God doesn't tug at the strings....I don't care what they type....

Well, disregarding the pre-emptive calling of a liar, I can.

Locke
09-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Of course I believe in God! He sent his son Jesus to be our savior!

On day, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! :up:

Scary.

Replace the first Jesus with Mohammed and the second Jesus Christ as Allah, and that is pretty much what muslim extremists say daily...

Kthurmus23
10-01-2009, 11:12 PM
DO I believe in god? I really think it is unlikely, however I cannot rule out the possibility. I have never came across anything that would convince me in the existence of a god. One thing that I know for sure is that I dont believe in any of the organized religions, and their forms of god. For me they have all acted as if they have the answers, and as if they KNOW without a doubt that their way is the way it all happened, but have no proof to back these beliefs. Not to mention that the ideas of some of these religions (Christianity) had been floating around long before Christianity was even a religion.

Pandarilla 72
10-05-2009, 04:01 AM
Wayward zest you crack me up, dude. And all you "nonbelievers" strike me as people with a discerning eye for BS (I love that).

You all are correct in your reluctance to be influenced by what you deem to be blind belief. In fact, it reminds me of a funny story where a guru in India told his disciples to "just do everything that he did" and they would be saved. Well, one day the sage was attacked by a swarm of bees and he was so pestered that in a hectic state of mind he flung himself down a well. So what do you think happened next? All of his disciples, one by one, flung themselves down the well thinking they were just "obeying" what the master had told them. God does not want you to be like the blind believer, following the dictates of stale dogma.

And not to say that anyone on here is as such, but your rhetoric does imply a certain faith that a nonbeliever finds to be "extreme". Please don't misunderstand me. You see it is just as hard for a true believer to "unbelieve" as it is an unbeliever to believe.

But God does exist, he's forever caressing you with a gentle breeze or a kind smile. Yet, he will not reveal himself through miracles to the masses because he wants you to seek him. You see, you are an individual piece of his consciousness, he has given you free will, and if you choose to seek him for his sake, despite repurcussions of living in heaven or hell (I'm so sick of hearing "Christians" interesting people through fear of eternal damnation), then and only then will he receive you. But not until he is convinced...that's a little more tricky:buds:

"Be still and know that I am God"
"The kingdom of heaven is inside you"
Plato's allegory of the cave.
Meditate! try it, create your own path to God!
Who knows, Maybe you have more to say on the matter than any of us believers.

Dolphan7
10-05-2009, 11:29 PM
Scary.

Replace the first Jesus with Mohammed and the second Jesus Christ as Allah, and that is pretty much what muslim extremists say daily...Well.....the thread topic is "do you believe in God", not make fun of what others believe in.

Phins_Dynasty
10-06-2009, 01:10 AM
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the origin of life, or the human species. I respect all religious beliefs from Christianity, to Buddhism, to Islam. There are many important life lessons that can be learned from every religion. Christianity, which seems to be the topic here, has great moral and ethical guidelines on how to live a happy life, but i truly believe religion is nothing more than a way to control the masses and give humans something to believe in so they can go about there daily lives. It started out as a way to control people and people have been tortured or killed throughout history if they did not believe or convert to a certain religion. Sadly, religion has been the cause of many wars and countless thousands of innocent lives lost. Recently in America at least it has become less violent, but it has become more of a business. If i turn on the TV late at night, there is guaranteed to some guy preaching "god's word" and asking for donations lol. Just give me money and you can contribute to god's fund. What a load of crap. Do you really think that God created man in "his" image. The only creature on the planet that does not live in harmony with the natural environment, and instead of providing some sort of benefit to other species of plants or animals, we just produce waste, destroy habitats, and use up our resources at an unsustainable rate. Every other species has a role in the ecosystem of the Earth, that gives some sort of positive output to the larger system. Somehow we have broke out of that loop and things are starting to really go down hill environmentally. Please don't think I'm some hippy liberal (im actually moderate more on the side of republican), we can all see that we have been negatively affecting the environment for years and now we are actually starting to have observable repercussions.

Man created god in his(man's) own image.

We don’t like being alone: God is omnipresent (even when no one is with us) and is with us at all times; he never let’s us down
We want some comfort especially through difficult times: God is always with us and will help us when we are in trouble



We want to be forgiven for what wrong we have done and be able to start again with a clean slate: God forgives



We don’t want things to end when we die – humans fear Death: God never gives up on us even when we die; instead we are brought closer to God, in paradise



We don’t like unfairness: God sees all and punishes unfairness

Heres the url to that article: http://pascalg.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/man-created-god-in-his-own-image/

I have no problem with people being religious as long as you do not become an extremist and want turn to violence because your beliefs are so strong or in other words you have been brainwashed with great efficiency. Killing or harming people in name of your religion is a horrible thing, and quite counteractive if you ask me. If people use the Bible or other "holy" books to use as a crutch to go throughout the day and feel better about themselves that is fine with me. Life is all about the pursuit of happiness and if believing in the words a book written by MAN thousands of years ago makes you happy and feel "whole" then I envy you. Many Christians have no idea how much the Bible changes over time to become better suited to today's lifestyles and viewpoints. Much of the words in the Bible have been mistranslated and purposely degraded over the years. Christianity has insane similarities to a vast number of other religions, including the Pagan religion that worships the sun, and the Egyptian book of the dead. It's basically a quality form of plagarism. I hate to be so negative because many of my friends are Christians, Catholics, and so on and most of them are great human beings! Sometimes ignorance is bliss, and if you truly believe that Jesus Christ was the savior of humanity, and that makes you sleep easier at night and wake up with a smile, then more power to you! I wish I could have such blind faith in something explaining what our species really is just touching the surface of, the origin of the universe, earth, life, etc. I do think that believing in God is somewhat of a cop out and slows further exploration. Instead of observing our natural surrounds, completing experiments, exploring the mystery of life in this amazing universe we live in, when people can't explain something, religion gives them an answer=> it must be God. Religion hinders the advancement of scientific knowledge, because many people are unwilling to go against their beliefs even if there is hard evidence to support other claims. If you are really strong in your faith, then you must hear the opposing views, be the devil's advocate (pun intended). To wholeheartedly believe you must challenge your faith constantly. If we learn from the past we will see that the human race has been very wrong throughout history, from thinking the earth was flat, to the Greek's gods and goddesses, to exorcism, and so on and so forth. I could go on for hours on how many things that were once accepted as absolute fact and now are seen as idiotic. This dimension and universe is so complex and incomprehensible, that human language cannot even begin to explain the truth of what is going on. "Life is not a mystery to be solved, but a reality to be experienced." Our brains do not yet have the capacity to understand the true underlying workings of our universe. We need to get our heads out of the clouds and start to evolve so we can have a higher quality of life that is more efficient and beneficial to where we live. The earth is a wondrous place and many of people who witness and feel these wonders just point to whatever God they bleive in. Who's to say that one religion is right and another is wrong. I gaurantee that if you grew up in another area where Islam or Hinduism was the religion of choice, you would believe in a different God then you do now. What if life is just unexplainable and amazing by definition, not created by some superior force. I somewhat can believe in "god" in the sense of every form of energy, every element, atom, molecule in our bodies, in the planets, the stars, and things we haven't even discovered yet, as parts of ONE complete consciousness or system. Like our human bodies have organs, circulatory, and nervous systems that combine to make one individual, maybe god is everything put together to be one form, one giant complexed balanced thing that humans are just a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny part of. I of course have no idea what the truth is and believe that no human being can know or even begin to understand "the truth." It's always fun to philosophize and discuss these subjects with intelligent people such as yourselves, but please don't be so blinded by your religion that you disregard anyone's idea that contradicts your own. There are many interesting viewpoints out there and all I ask is that you keep your mind open to anything and everything. If there is one thing you learn in life, may it be that ANYTHING is possible!! Let me leave you with a song quote by Ziggy Marley.

"All religion should be wiped out,
so that people may just live,
what divides us is an illusion
made up by men in their confusion" - In the name of god (Ziggy)

Dolphan7
10-06-2009, 01:22 AM
Christianity must be false - I heard it on the History Channel!

Tetragrammaton
10-06-2009, 01:43 AM
Well.....the thread topic is "do you believe in God", not make fun of what others believe in.

Is that not what TedSlimmJr did in the post you thanked, where he said


there's not a person in here that can say that somewhere in there deepest heart of hearts....that God doesn't tug at the strings....I don't care what they type....

He seems to be making fun of my stance, as well as calling me a liar if I say otherwise.

Phins_Dynasty
10-06-2009, 01:44 AM
My answer: YES.



Your answer?...


P.S. Not a public poll. You can vote without fear of being judged here.


i voted No, and wrote a long winded explanation of my personal beliefs on the bottom of page 9. You seem like you really want to discuss this issue so please read my response and post your thoughts. And whoever else wants to reply to my post, feel free.. i love discussing theology! :pop:

Dolphan7
10-06-2009, 03:06 AM
Is that not what TedSlimmJr did in the post you thanked, where he said



He seems to be making fun of my stance, as well as calling me a liar if I say otherwise.No I don't see that at all.

aesop
10-18-2009, 02:03 PM
Of course not. Selective vision is the key to most of your arguments.

GoonBoss
11-24-2009, 04:50 AM
Nope. I don't. I don't believe in a god as claimed by Christians. The whole concept makes absolutely no sense to me. Ultimately, what faith in god boils down to is just that. Faith.

I have none.

CashInFist
11-26-2009, 12:54 AM
Is that not what TedSlimmJr did in the post you thanked, where he said



He seems to be making fun of my stance, as well as calling me a liar if I say otherwise.


You had said in your previous posts that you thought there may be a higher power (God), and that you have prayed before a big exam...

Who were you praying to?

What's the problem? :ponder:

CashInFist
11-26-2009, 12:56 AM
Nope. I don't. I don't believe in a god as claimed by Christians. The whole concept makes absolutely no sense to me. Ultimately, what faith in god boils down to is just that. Faith.

I have none.


Do you think about or care about: how we got here, why we are here, and what is out there in the Universe that we as humans pretty much know nothing about?

d-day
11-26-2009, 01:06 AM
If we were meant to know where we originally came from, we'd all know. Believing in "god" is for those afraid or who feel they have to know. I don't have to know and it's very liberating.

CashInFist
11-26-2009, 01:09 AM
If we were meant to know where we originally came from, we'd all know. Believing in "god" is for those afraid or who feel they have to know. I don't have to know and it's very liberating.


Most of the world DOES know. It was proven and still talked and worshiped about 2000 years later...

How often SHOULD God visit us and remind us that we need no faith?

d-day
11-26-2009, 01:20 AM
Most of the world DOES know. It was proven and still talked and worshiped about 2000 years later...

How often SHOULD God visit us and remind us that we need no faith?


Most of the world believes in your god? Doubt it. But even if they did, it doesn't make it so. You just choose to believe it does. I mean seriously, worshipping a god?! That's just pretty ****ing funny stuff right there. If i don't go to heaven because i didn't worship a "god", then let me burn. I don't want anything to do with it.

CashInFist
11-26-2009, 01:25 AM
Most of the world believes in your god? Doubt it. But even if they did, it doesn't make it so. You just choose to believe it does. I mean seriously, worshipping a god?! That's just pretty ****ing funny stuff right there. If i don't go to heaven because i didn't worship a "god", then let me burn. I don't want anything to do with it.


Do you have anything intellectual to say about how we got here and what you think is out there in the Universe besides your emo bedroom?

d-day
11-26-2009, 01:33 AM
Do you have anything intellectual to say about how we got here and what you think is out there in the Universe besides your emo bedroom?

:lol: - And you're so intellectual because you believe in god? Pretty ironic if you ask me. Intellect to me would rule out any of that religious mumbo-jumbo you believe in. BTW, What's with the emo bedroom cheap shot? More intellectual conversation on your part? You wanna talk smack with me? Bring it on. But save it for the Depths of the Sea forum where it belongs.

CashInFist
11-26-2009, 01:37 AM
:lol: - And you're so intellectual because you believe in god? Pretty ironic if you ask me. Intellect to me would rule out any of that religious mumbo-jumbo you believe in. BTW, What's with the emo bedroom cheap shot? More intellectual conversation on your part? You wanna talk smack with me? Bring it on. But save it for the Depths of the Sea forum where it belongs.


Grow a sack!!! Geez!!! (Isn't that Emo from S Street?) :lol:

Do you have any comment on how we (humans) got here, how the Earth, Stars, planets, solar systems, galaxies, Universe got here? What is your theory? Is it the same as all non-believers?:

"I don't know and I don't care...?". That is standard procedure for your type...

d-day
11-26-2009, 01:46 AM
Grow a sack!!! Geez!!! (Isn't that Emo from S Street?) :lol:

Do you have any comment on how we (humans) got here, how the Earth, Stars, planets, solar systems, galaxies, Universe got here? What is your theory? Is it the same as all non-believers?:

"I don't know and I don't care...?". That is standard procedure for your type...

I don't know and I don't care.*










*As per standard procedure protocol from my type.

CashInFist
11-26-2009, 01:53 AM
I don't know and I don't care.*










*As per standard procedure protocol from my type.


So you are serious with that standard response? I was hoping for a little better from such a long-time and respected poster, who I respect as well, when it comes to the Miami Dolphins. I am not judging you, and I will not. I love you equally as a Miami Dolphins fans. :D

But I would REALLY like to hear what your opinion is on how everything got here and what you think really is out there in the Universe.

GoonBoss
11-26-2009, 07:47 PM
Do you think about or care about: how we got here, why we are here, and what is out there in the Universe that we as humans pretty much know nothing about?

Sure. None of it has to do with the god as dictated to people by Christians.

Prove to me it did without question.

I will agree that there is *A* god (Meaning a supreme presence) . There has to be. Something doesn't come from nothing. That's proven. Prove to me it comes from the Christian God without depending on faith.

CashInFist
11-28-2009, 10:15 PM
Sure. None of it has to do with the god as dictated to people by Christians.

Prove to me it did without question.

I will agree that there is *A* god (Meaning a supreme presence) . There has to be. Something doesn't come from nothing. That's proven. Prove to me it comes from the Christian God without depending on faith.


You think I know "exactly" what God is? Because I don't...LOL

I am like you and know "Some God" is there that created all of this. I do believe Jesus is the Son of God. There is no other miracle talked about like his 2000 years later...PERIOD.

As for a religion without faith??? LOL

Good luck with that one. What would be the point of free will if God is hovering over you 24/7? We would all be little puppets, bowing to God's every whim. Does that sound fun to you? We might as well be robots at that point...

Phins_Dynasty
11-29-2009, 04:16 AM
You think I know "exactly" what God is? Because I don't...LOL

I am like you and know "Some God" is there that created all of this. I do believe Jesus is the Son of God. There is no other miracle talked about like his 2000 years later...PERIOD.

As for a religion without faith??? LOL

Good luck with that one. What would be the point of free will if God is hovering over you 24/7? We would all be little puppets, bowing to God's every whim. Does that sound fun to you? We might as well be robots at that point...

I understand your way of thinking but dont agree with it. There is some supreme force that flows through the universe, a higher intelligence that the human brain may not be able to even comprehend. But to say Jesus is the "Son of God" based on a "miracle" that was written about thousands of years ago and base all your understanding of how life came to be on this tiny "grain of sand" of a planet in this massive universe we live in is a little far fetched. I respect anyones choice to believe in whatever they want, but to say God sent down a human form of his son to this one planet to show one species the "light" so we could worship him is insane. I'm open to anything but if christianity is the truth and explains origins of man and life, then this universe we live in is much more simple than it appears to be. IMO there is no way that the stories in the Bible are anywhere close to any feasible proximity of the truth of life. It has some good stories and morals for our species to live by in our environment and social structure but cmon... you really don't base all your decisions on this fairy tale that says this God created Man in his image and that theres a Good guy and a Bad guy controlling all things and whatever side you choose will decide your eternal fate. Its the best thing that anyone could come up with at the time and Jesus was an ideal image at the time to start this "business." Religion has brainwashed young children and adults for many many generations and will continue to do so. But if one dives to deep into these "means of control" you will be mentally trapped for the extent of your time on this Earth. Feel free to have faith but dont take it to the extreme to where human consciousness advancement and basic intelligent experimentation to find another answer to the many mysteries of life goes out the window. The mystery of life is what keeps it going. not an "answer" written in a book by some ancient civilization. Keep seeking truth within yourself and never accept the word of popular thought.

"Life is a reality to be experienced, not a problem to be solved"

GoonBoss
11-29-2009, 04:54 AM
You think I know "exactly" what God is? Because I don't...LOL

I am like you and know "Some God" is there that created all of this. I do believe Jesus is the Son of God. There is no other miracle talked about like his 2000 years later...PERIOD.

As for a religion without faith??? LOL

Good luck with that one. What would be the point of free will if God is hovering over you 24/7? We would all be little puppets, bowing to God's every whim. Does that sound fun to you? We might as well be robots at that point...

Ok. I've gotten you this far. That's good.


Now tell me this;

Of what point is free will? If your almighty "God" creates us....

I'm assuming you're still with me at this point :lol:




...........

He's created us to do what? Worship him, or die a horrible eternal death in hell.

Wow. That's a peach, eh? ****in' A. That's just the sort of god I want.



Convo heard between god and a soul he creates;

"Right...Here's the deal. I'm going to create you, yeah?"

"Right God. That sounds ok."

"Right. So......I'm gonna put you on the world, ok...And You've only got self important churchies to convince you of my existance."

"But you exist!"

"HA! There's the joke on you, mate! I'm going to wash that rot out of your head, so, if you deny me, I'm going to cook the soul, that I created, in a hell!"

"Well, that sounds like a crock, oh lord."

"You haven't heard the best."

"What's that oh lord?"

"I created the hell that I'm going to cook your soul in!"


Keep your ****ing god Cash. He's not my god, nor will he ever be. I'm glad you can have faith in his glory and power.

Me? I figgure the Christian God sees earth as an anthill. He will create souls with a free will, without knowledge of himself, then, he'll burn them for eternity if they choose wrongly.

Yeah, keep that god. Sounds like you need a new one as well.

CashInFist
11-29-2009, 08:03 AM
Ok. I've gotten you this far. That's good.


Now tell me this;

Of what point is free will? If your almighty "God" creates us....

I'm assuming you're still with me at this point :lol:




...........

He's created us to do what? Worship him, or die a horrible eternal death in hell.

Wow. That's a peach, eh? ****in' A. That's just the sort of god I want.



Convo heard between god and a soul he creates;

"Right...Here's the deal. I'm going to create you, yeah?"

"Right God. That sounds ok."

"Right. So......I'm gonna put you on the world, ok...And You've only got self important churchies to convince you of my existance."

"But you exist!"

"HA! There's the joke on you, mate! I'm going to wash that rot out of your head, so, if you deny me, I'm going to cook the soul, that I created, in a hell!"

"Well, that sounds like a crock, oh lord."

"You haven't heard the best."

"What's that oh lord?"

"I created the hell that I'm going to cook your soul in!"


Keep your ****ing god Cash. He's not my god, nor will he ever be. I'm glad you can have faith in his glory and power.

Me? I figgure the Christian God sees earth as an anthill. He will create souls with a free will, without knowledge of himself, then, he'll burn them for eternity if they choose wrongly.

Yeah, keep that god. Sounds like you need a new one as well.


Honestly, I think God created us to enjoy life, appreciate all of it's marvels, and believe in Him and his path of just being a good person towards others. But, you must have faith in him. That is why he sent Jesus down to us, so we would believe. How often does He need to do that to satisfy you?

aesop
11-29-2009, 12:28 PM
Honestly, I think God created us to enjoy life, appreciate all of it's marvels, and believe in Him and his path of just being a good person towards others. But, you must have faith in him. That is why he sent Jesus down to us, so we would believe. How often does He need to do that to satisfy you?At least once during my lifetime, preferably with 3 different camera angles recording.

GoonBoss
11-29-2009, 12:48 PM
Honestly, I think God created us to enjoy life, appreciate all of it's marvels, and believe in Him and his path of just being a good person towards others. But, you must have faith in him. That is why he sent Jesus down to us, so we would believe. How often does He need to do that to satisfy you?

Prove to me that Jesus was sent by god.

Phins_Dynasty
11-29-2009, 05:19 PM
At least once during my lifetime, preferably with 3 different camera angles recording.

HAHAHA exaaactlyyy

ABrownLamp
11-29-2009, 06:18 PM
I'd like to see some sort of solid proof that Jesus even existed. Is he even mentioned in any historical records outside of the Bible? I don't think there's a historical record for any of the people in the Bible if I recall corectly.

Dolphan7
11-29-2009, 07:36 PM
Prove to me that Jesus was sent by god.No one is going to prove anything to you Goonboss. It sounds like you have your mind set, and nothing will change that it seems. While I respect your right to reject the Christian God, and his Son, I also respectfully disagree with your conclusions about my God. Touche'

The only problem I foresee...is that..... one of us is wrong.

Eternity is an awefully long time to be wrong.

Dolphan7
11-29-2009, 07:39 PM
I'd like to see some sort of solid proof that Jesus even existed. Is he even mentioned in any historical records outside of the Bible? I don't think there's a historical record for any of the people in the Bible if I recall corectly.Josephus and Pliny, among others, mention Jesus and Christians worshiping Jesus in their writings. Other than that.....nothing.....but there is still the bible.

CashInFist
12-01-2009, 12:06 AM
At least once during my lifetime, preferably with 3 different camera angles recording.


Why do you personally believe you deserve this special treatment?

I certainly do not think I am worthy of that, yet I still believe.

aesop
12-01-2009, 12:42 PM
Why do you personally believe you deserve this special treatment?

I certainly do not think I am worthy of that, yet I still believe.So only the great people of 20AD (or whenever he did or did not walk the Earth) were worthy of seeing him? God talked to a lot of people back in the day, what happened? They all get thrown in psych wards now.

emeraldfin
12-01-2009, 12:56 PM
So only the great people of 20AD (or whenever he did or did not walk the Earth) were worthy of seeing him? God talked to a lot of people back in the day, what happened? They all get thrown in psych wards now.

Going by the DSM IV and todays understanding of mental health and abnormal psychology, asking the question if these guys suffered some form of mental illness is pretty legitimate IMO.

I mean if someone went around today saying they were the Lord and Saviour, more than likley they get diagnoised with schizophrenia

PhinPhan910
12-01-2009, 05:23 PM
I look at it like this:

Why does it matter if god exists or not? I don't need to know why everything was created. There is no PROOF either way that god does or doesn't exist. I could get into more detail and make myself seem much smarter but I don't have the time right now.

Dolphan7
12-01-2009, 05:44 PM
I look at it like this:

Why does it matter if god exists or not? I don't need to know why everything was created. There is no PROOF either way that god does or doesn't exist. I could get into more detail and make myself seem much smarter but I don't have the time right now.Proof...is a relative term when it concerns the existence of a Creator. There are some who just believe from the bottom of their inner soul and conscience that God exists...and that is all the "proof" they need. There are those who need a little more intellectual and logical explanations of which there certainly is plenty of that type of proof. If you are referring to scientific proof as practiced by those in the scientific community....yeah I agree there won't be any direct proof for or against a Divine Creator.

aesop
12-02-2009, 12:07 PM
Proof is not a relative term by any means.

Phins_Dynasty
12-02-2009, 07:38 PM
I don't think any religion created by man is anywhere near the truth, and that's how it's supposed to be. Regarding christianity, the fact that the bible states that if someone does not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, they will suffer for all eternity in a fiery hell... seems pretty ridiculous to me. How are we just supposed to trust the word of others and accept a man we have never met before as our savior.. life is about questioning things not blindly accepting them. The bible seems to contradict many of its morals it tells us to live by... just my opinion.

Dolphan7
12-02-2009, 08:00 PM
I don't think any religion created by man is anywhere near the truth, and that's how it's supposed to be. Regarding christianity, the fact that the bible states that if someone does not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, they will suffer for all eternity in a fiery hell... seems pretty ridiculous to me. How are we just supposed to trust the word of others and accept a man we have never met before as our savior.. life is about questioning things not blindly accepting them. The bible seems to contradict many of its morals it tells us to live by... just my opinion.I used to be an atheist so I know exactly what you mean about Christianity. Once I learned about what it is all about, it changed my view drastically. Most people simply don't take the time to learn about it. Once you do.....Jesus isn't such a stranger, and God isn't so bad....and ample evidence of his existence that one doesn't have to believe "blindly".

emeraldfin
12-03-2009, 09:21 AM
I don't think any religion created by man is anywhere near the truth, and that's how it's supposed to be. Regarding christianity, the fact that the bible states that if someone does not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, they will suffer for all eternity in a fiery hell... seems pretty ridiculous to me. How are we just supposed to trust the word of others and accept a man we have never met before as our savior.. life is about questioning things not blindly accepting them. The bible seems to contradict many of its morals it tells us to live by... just my opinion.

Quick question dude, have you completly read the New Testament?

Phins_Dynasty
12-03-2009, 07:02 PM
Quick question dude, have you completly read the New Testament?

No not completely. I used to read portions of the old & new testaments when I was younger, but never bought into it. I understand how people draw conclusions from different things that happen in life to be God's presence, but IMO those people are interpreting certain events to confirm their beliefs. Some individuals search for things that reinforce their faith without weighing the other possibilities. This is of course called the confirmation bias...

"Confirmation bias occurs when we selectively notice or focus upon evidence which tends to support the things we already believe or want to be true while ignoring that evidence which would serve to disconfirm those beliefs or ideas. Confirmation bias plays a stronger role when it comes to those beliefs which are based upon prejudice, faith, or tradition rather than on empirical evidence."

I respectfully disagree with many peoples' beliefs and in my heart, soul, and mind I KNOW that absolute truth does not reside in any of the world's religions. Just as you claim to KNOW that whatever your religion may be is true. And in my opinion neither of us is Wrong, a major aspect of life is believing in whatever it is you feel is right, there is no right or wrong, just opinions & relativity.

Dolphan7
12-03-2009, 08:56 PM
No not completely. I used to read portions of the old & new testaments when I was younger, but never bought into it. I understand how people draw conclusions from different things that happen in life to be God's presence, but IMO those people are interpreting certain events to confirm their beliefs. Some individuals search for things that reinforce their faith without weighing the other possibilities. This is of course called the confirmation bias...

"Confirmation bias occurs when we selectively notice or focus upon evidence which tends to support the things we already believe or want to be true while ignoring that evidence which would serve to disconfirm those beliefs or ideas. Confirmation bias plays a stronger role when it comes to those beliefs which are based upon prejudice, faith, or tradition rather than on empirical evidence."

I respectfully disagree with many peoples' beliefs and in my heart, soul, and mind I KNOW that absolute truth does not reside in any of the world's religions. Just as you claim to KNOW that whatever your religion may be is true. And in my opinion neither of us is Wrong, a major aspect of life is believing in whatever it is you feel is right, there is no right or wrong, just opinions & relativity.You do realize that this confirmation bias you speak of goes both ways right?

Phins_Dynasty
12-03-2009, 10:50 PM
You do realize that this confirmation bias you speak of goes both ways right?

Yes sir. I always try to look at things from every angle possible, not always successfully of course because overcoming your own biases is a difficult thing to do. I wouldn't mind if Christianity was true (actually used to wish that it was true), would make things much simpler but the odds that this one book written by some guy thousands of years ago explains all universal mysteries about life are very very minuscule. Now that i've come to my own conclusion about religion (that they are cultural stories and thoughts that can help people learn various things about life and not actual fact) it makes life seem much more beautiful, vibrant, and limitless. One of the problems i have with the bible is the limits & fears it puts into people. Life is full of opportunities, possibilities, ideas, mysteries, etc. If we are given this one answer and rules on how to live so we can live in an eternal paradise, it makes life seem much more dull. It's almost like many christians are just living to die. Life is the real gift, reward, "heaven," not death. Death is just part of the cycle..

CashInFist
12-04-2009, 02:17 AM
Yes sir. I always try to look at things from every angle possible, not always successfully of course because overcoming your own biases is a difficult thing to do. I wouldn't mind if Christianity was true (actually used to wish that it was true), would make things much simpler but the odds that this one book written by some guy thousands of years ago explains all universal mysteries about life are very very minuscule. Now that i've come to my own conclusion about religion (that they are cultural stories and thoughts that can help people learn various things about life and not actual fact) it makes life seem much more beautiful, vibrant, and limitless. One of the problems i have with the bible is the limits & fears it puts into people. Life is full of opportunities, possibilities, ideas, mysteries, etc. If we are given this one answer and rules on how to live so we can live in an eternal paradise, it makes life seem much more dull. It's almost like many christians are just living to die. Life is the real gift, reward, "heaven," not death. Death is just part of the cycle..


If you think just "One Guy" wrote the Bible then you have never even picked one up, much less read it...

emeraldfin
12-04-2009, 07:48 AM
No not completely. I used to read portions of the old & new testaments when I was younger, but never bought into it. I understand how people draw conclusions from different things that happen in life to be God's presence, but IMO those people are interpreting certain events to confirm their beliefs. Some individuals search for things that reinforce their faith without weighing the other possibilities. This is of course called the confirmation bias...

"Confirmation bias occurs when we selectively notice or focus upon evidence which tends to support the things we already believe or want to be true while ignoring that evidence which would serve to disconfirm those beliefs or ideas. Confirmation bias plays a stronger role when it comes to those beliefs which are based upon prejudice, faith, or tradition rather than on empirical evidence."

I respectfully disagree with many peoples' beliefs and in my heart, soul, and mind I KNOW that absolute truth does not reside in any of the world's religions. Just as you claim to KNOW that whatever your religion may be is true. And in my opinion neither of us is Wrong, a major aspect of life is believing in whatever it is you feel is right, there is no right or wrong, just opinions & relativity.

Personally speaking, I think that there are too many faiths out there claiming to be right for none of them to be wrong. I understand the point you are making, but with all these faiths over the world, someone has to be wrong. Now, I dont think any human can say any of these faiths are wrong, but all these faiths preach a message that they are right, so someones gotta be wrong IMO.

Dolphan7
12-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Yes sir. I always try to look at things from every angle possible, not always successfully of course because overcoming your own biases is a difficult thing to do. I wouldn't mind if Christianity was true (actually used to wish that it was true), would make things much simpler but the odds that this one book written by some guy thousands of years ago explains all universal mysteries about life are very very minuscule. Now that i've come to my own conclusion about religion (that they are cultural stories and thoughts that can help people learn various things about life and not actual fact) it makes life seem much more beautiful, vibrant, and limitless. One of the problems i have with the bible is the limits & fears it puts into people. Life is full of opportunities, possibilities, ideas, mysteries, etc. If we are given this one answer and rules on how to live so we can live in an eternal paradise, it makes life seem much more dull. It's almost like many christians are just living to die. Life is the real gift, reward, "heaven," not death. Death is just part of the cycle..Well....here's the thing. Just as I commented in an earlier post...you have to learn what Christianity is all about before you can effectively accept or reject it. It sounds to me like you haven't taken the time to do that, but are more than likely basing your view on the opinions of others, or what you have read or heard over time.

There is an absolute truth. There has to be, otherwise everything we know and believe in falls apart. Without it we end up with relative truth, and when we go down that road, we lose all basis for what is right and wrong. When that happens we have total anarchy and the entire planet falls apart.

I put forth that the absolute truth is the God of the bible. It makes the most sense intellectually and logically...and explains far more about why we are here, and how, than any other possible explanation out there...bar none.

aesop
12-04-2009, 01:06 PM
I put forth that the absolute truth is the God of the bible. It makes the most sense intellectually and logically...and explains far more about why we are here, and how, than any other possible explanation out there...bar none.You can't be serious. The god of the bible does not make the most sense intellectually nor logically. In fact it makes the least sense logically. There are many other attempted explanations that make more logical sense than the magic man in the sky presented by the bible. I'm not saying there couldn't be a god, but the one in the bible is far from logical.

Logic: –noun
1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

Dolphan7
12-04-2009, 01:44 PM
You can't be serious. The god of the bible does not make the most sense intellectually nor logically. In fact it makes the least sense logically. There are many other attempted explanations that make more logical sense than the magic man in the sky presented by the bible. I'm not saying there couldn't be a god, but the one in the bible is far from logical.

Logic: –noun
1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

When one goes through the entire process of evaluating the Christian God, in a way that is exhaustive in it's scope, it is the intellectual and logical choice.

Name any other one that comes close to answering all the important questions that the bible does.

Phins_Dynasty
12-04-2009, 03:59 PM
Agree to disagree :wink:, just don't become trapped in your religion so much to where it hinders your experience of life. No one's life should be engulfed by any faith or belief, its all about moderation. Do what feels right, don't be scared to be judged and enjoy the many aspects of crazy place we find ourselves in!

LIVE LIFE :hump:

Phins_Dynasty
12-04-2009, 04:08 PM
If you think just "One Guy" wrote the Bible then you have never even picked one up, much less read it...

Oh I have read much of both testaments, just not recently. I understand that many are recognized at adding their pieces to the book, but from the christian viewpoint it is god himself who actually "wrote" the book right? Funny how everyone seems to pick out one point they don't like out of my long winded posts...

question for all christians and other faiths... do you accept the possibility that in the future there could be evidence (maybe even a divine presence) that proves that Christianity and/or other faiths are false? if that does happen (undeniable evidence) will you still hold fast to your beliefs? can you admit if this does happen you would change your minds? i would be surprised to see any truthfully answer that they could change their beliefs even in the face of absolute truth of something different. i would have much more respect for you all if you honestly believe, even though most of you accept your religion as fact, that their is any tiny bit of possibility that you could be wrong... let me know

p.s. i admit that if in my lifetime if we are given undeniable, new evidence that christianity is true, than i would be able to change my mind... can you do the same in the opposite situation?

Dolphan7
12-04-2009, 05:16 PM
Oh I have read much of both testaments, just not recently. I understand that many are recognized at adding their pieces to the book, but from the christian viewpoint it is god himself who actually "wrote" the book right? Funny how everyone seems to pick out one point they don't like out of my long winded posts...

question for all christians and other faiths... do you accept the possibility that in the future there could be evidence (maybe even a divine presence) that proves that Christianity and/or other faiths are false? if that does happen (undeniable evidence) will you still hold fast to your beliefs? can you admit if this does happen you would change your minds? i would be surprised to see any truthfully answer that they could change their beliefs even in the face of absolute truth of something different. i would have much more respect for you all if you honestly believe, even though most of you accept your religion as fact, that their is any tiny bit of possibility that you could be wrong... let me know

p.s. i admit that if in my lifetime if we are given undeniable, new evidence that christianity is true, than i would be able to change my mind... can you do the same in the opposite situation?First off....according to some...there is already enough evidence to prove there is no God. So what do you define as proof?

Second....I will cross that bridge when and if I arrive at it.

Third, what type of faith would I have if I were to claim today that I would turn away from my faith if given the proof it is indeed not based on truth? It is the exact basis of my faith that there is no way My God doesn't exist.

This is the best answer I or any Christian can give.

Phins_Dynasty
12-04-2009, 10:52 PM
First off....according to some...there is already enough evidence to prove there is no God. So what do you define as proof?

Second....I will cross that bridge when and if I arrive at it.

Third, what type of faith would I have if I were to claim today that I would turn away from my faith if given the proof it is indeed not based on truth? It is the exact basis of my faith that there is no way My God doesn't exist.

This is the best answer I or any Christian can give.


I respect this answer. You seem like a fair, honest person unlike many others. Seems we share a mutual respect although our opinions differ dramatically on this certain subject. I appreciate the civil conversation. GO FINZ!!! :hump:

GoonBoss
12-05-2009, 03:47 AM
No one is going to prove anything to you Goonboss. It sounds like you have your mind set, and nothing will change that it seems. While I respect your right to reject the Christian God, and his Son, I also respectfully disagree with your conclusions about my God. Touche'

The only problem I foresee...is that..... one of us is wrong.

Eternity is an awefully long time to be wrong.

I've changed my mind before on a variety of subjects. I try to arrive at my positions by considering all the facts availiable to me as they come. If you can prove to me, without the use of faith, that the Christian God exists, then I will gladly reverse my position.

We both know that you can't.

I certainly respect your right to have faith in whatever you want to have faith in, and I also just as certainly won't mock that faith.

You are certainly right that one of us is wrong. I live my life in a good and honorable way. Better than a good many Christians, I'd say. If the difference between us...Eternal paradise, and, eternal damnation is dependent only on pledgeing fielty to God, that doesn't strike me as a good thing.

If the Christian God in fact did create the world and create the human mind to work the way it does...To doubt, use reason, and, to question the unknown, and then damns those that reach different conclusions than those who chose Christianity with the very insturment he gave them to arrive at those conclusions?

You can have your eternity with your God. He doesn't sound like someone I'd care to hang out with in any world. He actually sounds like a petulant child.

CashInFist
12-05-2009, 06:10 AM
I've changed my mind before on a variety of subjects. I try to arrive at my positions by considering all the facts availiable to me as they come. If you can prove to me, without the use of faith, that the Christian God exists, then I will gladly reverse my position.

We both know that you can't.

I certainly respect your right to have faith in whatever you want to have faith in, and I also just as certainly won't mock that faith.

You are certainly right that one of us is wrong. I live my life in a good and honorable way. Better than a good many Christians, I'd say. If the difference between us...Eternal paradise, and, eternal damnation is dependent only on pledgeing fielty to God, that doesn't strike me as a good thing.

If the Christian God in fact did create the world and create the human mind to work the way it does...To doubt, use reason, and, to question the unknown, and then damns those that reach different conclusions than those who chose Christianity with the very insturment he gave them to arrive at those conclusions?

You can have your eternity with your God. He doesn't sound like someone I'd care to hang out with in any world. He actually sounds like a petulant child.


Wait...you don't believe in God? AT ALL??? :ponder:

Dolphan7
12-05-2009, 01:36 PM
I've changed my mind before on a variety of subjects. I try to arrive at my positions by considering all the facts available to me as they come. If you can prove to me, without the use of faith, that the Christian God exists, then I will gladly reverse my position.

We both know that you can't.

I certainly respect your right to have faith in whatever you want to have faith in, and I also just as certainly won't mock that faith.

You are certainly right that one of us is wrong. I live my life in a good and honorable way. Better than a good many Christians, I'd say. If the difference between us...Eternal paradise, and, eternal damnation is dependent only on pledging fielty to God, that doesn't strike me as a good thing.

If the Christian God in fact did create the world and create the human mind to work the way it does...To doubt, use reason, and, to question the unknown, and then damns those that reach different conclusions than those who chose Christianity with the very instrument he gave them to arrive at those conclusions?

You can have your eternity with your God. He doesn't sound like someone I'd care to hang out with in any world. He actually sounds like a petulant child.

We both know that I can't prove to you without faith? I don't know that. It sounds like you are convinced of this however....and that would prevent me from ever attempting such an endeavor. The Christian faith is not based on faith alone, or blind faith. It has it's fair share of proofs. It isn't 100% and certainly relies on faith for those things that we do not understand, or have yet to happen. But there is much that we can know for sure and based on that can trust the rest to faith. Hebrews 11:1

Secondly, you state that you would not mock that faith. Yet....in your last sentence, you do just that.

Don't give up on the Christian God. No matter what you might think, no matter that you think He is not worthy of your company for eternity, no matter that you don't want to hang with him in Heaven....one thing is for sure.....if He is indeed the real deal as He says he is....and you have rejected him in such a way as you have.....you will spend eternity in a place you don't want to go....no matter what you "think" you would like to do instead. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hand of the living God. Hebrews 10:31.

I don't know what your experiences are. It sounds like you have had some bad experiences with Christians. Maybe you have been hurt, lied to, cheated on...or a host of many other things. Keep in mind that Christians, although united in their faith, are also human beings and thus are not perfect. I myself hang my head in sadness when some stupid Christian does something that will only turn people away from God, not draw them closer. It happens. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water Goon. Don't slay the messenger.

I myself was a staunch atheist for the first 30 odd years of my life. So I have overcome huge obstacles to find the truth of my faith. I cannot imagine someone who once believed, and then rejected that which they believed in. Hebrews 10:26 states:
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Unless you know for sure, like 1000% sure, that the Christian God is fake, you are gambling with your soul. That is a debt you cannot pay. That is why we need Jesus. I tell you this because I truly care for your eternal salvation, as I do everyone. I am glad for this opportunity to share with you. Please don't give up on God.

Dolphan7
12-05-2009, 01:37 PM
I respect this answer. You seem like a fair, honest person unlike many others. Seems we share a mutual respect although our opinions differ dramatically on this certain subject. I appreciate the civil conversation. GO FINZ!!! :hump:Likewise. If you ever have any questions just ask.

Let's kick some Patriot Butt tomorrow!!!!!

GoonBoss
12-05-2009, 02:38 PM
Wait...you don't believe in God? AT ALL??? :ponder:
You haven't been paying attention.

I believe in *A* God. There has to be one. That has been proven without any question to me. (By my old theology teacher, Mr. Vetter, Gramercy High '83}

I just don't think I can put the power that created the universe in a convienient fun sized pieces.

GoonBoss
12-05-2009, 03:01 PM
We both know that I can't prove to you without faith? I don't know that. It sounds like you are convinced of this however....and that would prevent me from ever attempting such an endeavor. The Christian faith is not based on faith alone, or blind faith. It has it's fair share of proofs. It isn't 100% and certainly relies on faith for those things that we do not understand, or have yet to happen. But there is much that we can know for sure and based on that can trust the rest to faith. Hebrews 11:1

Secondly, you state that you would not mock that faith. Yet....in your last sentence, you do just that.

Don't give up on the Christian God. No matter what you might think, no matter that you think He is not worthy of your company for eternity, no matter that you don't want to hang with him in Heaven....one thing is for sure.....if He is indeed the real deal as He says he is....and you have rejected him in such a way as you have.....you will spend eternity in a place you don't want to go....no matter what you "think" you would like to do instead. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hand of the living God. Hebrews 10:31.

I don't know what your experiences are. It sounds like you have had some bad experiences with Christians. Maybe you have been hurt, lied to, cheated on...or a host of many other things. Keep in mind that Christians, although united in their faith, are also human beings and thus are not perfect. I myself hang my head in sadness when some stupid Christian does something that will only turn people away from God, not draw them closer. It happens. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water Goon. Don't slay the messenger.

I myself was a staunch atheist for the first 30 odd years of my life. So I have overcome huge obstacles to find the truth of my faith. I cannot imagine someone who once believed, and then rejected that which they believed in. Hebrews 10:26 states:
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Unless you know for sure, like 1000% sure, that the Christian God is fake, you are gambling with your soul. That is a debt you cannot pay. That is why we need Jesus. I tell you this because I truly care for your eternal salvation, as I do everyone. I am glad for this opportunity to share with you. Please don't give up on God.

Don't take the easy way out Dolphan7. You've seen me post in this forum and on this board. I'm very opinionated, because I believe I'm right. If I believe I'm wrong, I'll change my mind.

I didn't mean to mock your faith. It's simply the best characterization of the idea of the Christian God as it was taught to me is. I also said you can have your eternity with him if you like. I don't see that as mocking. I see it Peter King, on his BBC show said in his sign off "Good night, and may your god go with you." I could've used better wording I suppose. I'm sorry.

Yes, I was a believer, as I was "brought up in the way I should go". Once I really gained the capacity to question blind faith (Which I believe faith in the Christian god is), the holes started to appear that couldn't be reconciled.

As far as being hurt or disappointed.....No more so than in anything really. I just know that it makes no sense to me that a "Christian" by virtue of giving over his soul can do whatever he wants and ask forgivness later and winds up in paradise, whereas I can maintain "Christian values" better than them but burn in hell? That's a big issue.

The text you pointed out from Hebrews is really that much more daming to a benevolent god, to me. Oh, so I'm *Worse* because I left the faith, rather than just rejecting it outright? Sorry. Not a guy I want to hang out with.

Look...Dolphan7, You're welcome to try. I'll entertain any discussion of salvation. The usual stuff won't work on me though. Bible verses don't work on me, because nobody can show me that the Bible was written by God through man. If man wrote it, it's bound to be filled with errors. Scare tactics don't work on me either.

Look...It all boils down to faith. I have none. That's really all Christianity boils down to in my opinion. Its fine for you, and, Cash, and, all Christians. I'm glad you guys have it. I simply don't.

Dolphan7
12-10-2009, 02:16 PM
Don't take the easy way out Dolphan7. You've seen me post in this forum and on this board. I'm very opinionated, because I believe I'm right. If I believe I'm wrong, I'll change my mind. I am not taking the easy way out. I am simply following sound biblical advice. Matt 7:6


I didn't mean to mock your faith. It's simply the best characterization of the idea of the Christian God as it was taught to me is. I also said you can have your eternity with him if you like. I don't see that as mocking. I see it Peter King, on his BBC show said in his sign off "Good night, and may your god go with you." I could've used better wording I suppose. I'm sorry.No problem


Yes, I was a believer, as I was "brought up in the way I should go". Once I really gained the capacity to question blind faith (Which I believe faith in the Christian god is), the holes started to appear that couldn't be reconciled. I am reluctant to ask...but I will...What holes?


As far as being hurt or disappointed.....No more so than in anything really. I just know that it makes no sense to me that a "Christian" by virtue of giving over his soul can do whatever he wants and ask forgiveness later and winds up in paradise, whereas I can maintain "Christian values" better than them but burn in hell? That's a big issue. You are wrong that a Christian can do whatever they want and just ask forgiveness and get into heaven. There is much more to it than that. Think about cheating on your wife and then asking for forgiveness. Then doing it again...and again...and again. Soon there won't be a relationship anymore. The actions speak from that which is in your heart. Now we don't get to decide who goes to heaven and who doesn't. Thankfully only God does that and we know that He will do the right thing....every time. I don't get into discussions of who will go and who won't, because I don't know where their heart is. No man can know the heart of their fellow man. All I can do is tell you what the bible says and leave it up to you.


The text you pointed out from Hebrews is really that much more daming to a benevolent god, to me. Oh, so I'm *Worse* because I left the faith, rather than just rejecting it outright? Sorry. Not a guy I want to hang out with. I could've use that verse to respond to the above comment - that shows that a Christian cannot continue to sin and expect to go to heaven. I only posted it earlier to show the contrast between you and I - One was not saved and found salvation finally, the other was saved and rejected it. It doesn't matter how moral you are, or think you are...it all boils down to accepting or rejecting His Son Jesus Christ and living your life consistently for God. He doesn't expect us to be perfect, just consistent. Are you worse off for rejecting Him...no. You will not suffer any worse consequence than those who never accept him. It is just sad to see.


Look...Dolphan7, You're welcome to try. I'll entertain any discussion of salvation. The usual stuff won't work on me though. Bible verses don't work on me, because nobody can show me that the Bible was written by God through man. If man wrote it, it's bound to be filled with errors. Scare tactics don't work on me either. You really need to look at the person and historicity of Jesus. Did he exist. Did he do the things they said he did. Did he die and rise again on the 3rd day. It is the cornerstone to the Christian faith. It stands or falls on Jesus. And we don't believe that Jesus is who he is on blind faith. There is very good corroborating evidence that he is indeed exactly who he says he is. It isn't based on blind faith. The problem you will have is that the bible is the source of his life and miracles, death burial and resurrection. If you can't accept the bible, then I can't help you. The bible is a take all or leave all thing. It is either completely false and a hoax, or it is in fact completely true. It cannot be anything in between as then we would not know which is true and which is false. It is a take it or leave it deal.

Jesus told us:

MT 7:7 “ Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. This is totally up to you to do. I can't do it for you. I can't bring God to you ...you have to find God on your own terms. If God can use me as a tool to help people find him...then that is an honor and a Christians only responsibility in this whole thing. The info is out there.


Look...It all boils down to faith. I have none. That's really all Christianity boils down to in my opinion. Its fine for you, and, Cash, and, all Christians. I'm glad you guys have it. I simply don't.If you are saying that you don't have "blind" faith, then you are rejecting God for the wrong reasons. He doesn't say you have to accept him blindly. He has given His only Son to die for you and there is tons of proof of this event. It isn't to be blindly accepted.

As I said earlier....you are gambling with your eternity here. This is not meant to instill fear...but is meant to show the reality and logic of your situation.

One of us is wrong. Eternity is an awful long time to be wrong.

I leave you with this saying..

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't,
than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

aesop
12-10-2009, 02:58 PM
I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't,
than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.Ah, the old "just in case" Christian mindset.

Dolphan7
12-10-2009, 04:07 PM
Ah, the old "just in case" Christian mindset.Always good to have a plan B. :up:

What is your plan B if Jesus shows up tomorrow?

ABrownLamp
12-10-2009, 05:17 PM
Always good to have a plan B. :up:

What is your plan B if Jesus shows up tomorrow?

If Jesus shows up tomorrow I'll say to him, "I believe now my Lord"

Then what...

Dolphan7
12-10-2009, 06:41 PM
If Jesus shows up tomorrow I'll say to him, "I believe now my Lord"

Then what...I don't know I am not God.

But if you cheat on your wife...again and again and again and she finally serves you with a divorce notice....and then you say...I love you now......think it will make a difference?

ABrownLamp
12-10-2009, 07:11 PM
I don't know I am not God.

But if you cheat on your wife...again and again and again and she finally serves you with a divorce notice....and then you say...I love you now......think it will make a difference?

Well thats an interesting analogy.

In response I'd say, why would I be with someone who has never given me the love I need? I've searched my heart, and when tragedy stuck my family 15 years ago, and Jesus never helped or comforted me or made me feel better, why should I have tried to reconcile things with him? Can a person force themselves to believe? Is that what God wants?

The fact is I served Jesus divorce papers over a decade ago. If he really loves me, he should be the one who says "I love you now" when he makes an appearance. I'll believe him. And take him back

aesop
12-11-2009, 12:13 PM
Always good to have a plan B. :up:

What is your plan B if Jesus shows up tomorrow?I'd probably see if he could just do me one more favor.

Dolphan7
12-11-2009, 12:40 PM
I'd probably see if he could just do me one more favor.That's your plan?

Brother...that.... is a prayer!

Dolphan7
12-11-2009, 12:50 PM
Well thats an interesting analogy.

In response I'd say, why would I be with someone who has never given me the love I need? I've searched my heart, and when tragedy stuck my family 15 years ago, and Jesus never helped or comforted me or made me feel better, why should I have tried to reconcile things with him? Can a person force themselves to believe? Is that what God wants?

The fact is I served Jesus divorce papers over a decade ago. If he really loves me, he should be the one who says "I love you now" when he makes an appearance. I'll believe him. And take him backI don't know what your circumstances were, or where you were at spritually, 15 years ago. I hope you don't think that a healthy relationship with God means that you will never suffer any tragedy. Bad things happen to those who follow Jesus just as much as anyone else in the world.

You rejected Jesus 10 years ago and will only believe if he shows up once again, yet....he did in fact show up 2000 years ago, and died for all of us so that we may be able to have that relationship with God. When he comes again it won't be to die for us, it will be for judgment and justice. The time now is for us to decide what we will do with his grace, before he comes back to deliver his justice. Once he returns....it will be too late.


So...it really gets back to the original question....what will you do if Jesus returns tomorrow?

aesop
12-11-2009, 01:42 PM
That's your plan?

Bother...that.... is a prayer!So, what you're saying is that.. I'm living on a prayer?








http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/12/300pxGuysmiley-1.jpg

HansMojo
12-12-2009, 10:10 PM
Well thats an interesting analogy.

In response I'd say, why would I be with someone who has never given me the love I need? I've searched my heart, and when tragedy stuck my family 15 years ago, and Jesus never helped or comforted me or made me feel better, why should I have tried to reconcile things with him? Can a person force themselves to believe? Is that what God wants?

The fact is I served Jesus divorce papers over a decade ago. If he really loves me, he should be the one who says "I love you now" when he makes an appearance. I'll believe him. And take him back
I appreciate your post very much Lampy, and I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your family tragedy, whatever it may have been. I wish I could have been there for you 15 years ago. I'm hoping you had other loved ones who were. I'm here now though if you ever want to talk about it.

I don't think a person can force themselves to believe or that this is even what God wants. However, I do think a person can force themselves to give God a chance. I think a person can force themselves to pull down their barriers and honestly open themselves up to the possibility of God and to let Him come into their hearts when He knocks on the door. This is likely what many people need to do before they will be able to find Him on a personal level.

My understanding is that God speaks to each of us, but most of the time we simply can not hear Him because of a variety of reasons. These include things like a predisposition to disbelieve, or other distractions we may be living with, or even an immoveable idea about what God is like or what an encounter with God would be like. Personally, I think we would all be surprised to know how much support we have received that we were not aware of.

IMHO, I, like all Christians, have been given a message to deliver to you (and everyone else) and that message is that Jesus does love you Lampy and He wants you back. Christians like myself take courage in the belief that He is going to return someday to this world and when He does, He is going to put an end to all of the tragedy and suffering that we face here. We are all invited to join Him in paradise.

Phins_Dynasty
12-12-2009, 11:25 PM
If you have the chance everyone on this thread should take the time to watch the "movie" ---- Letting Go of God by Julia Sweeney... very interesting! It is basically this lady who gives a monologue of her life on stage about her life experiences with god and different religions. She was raised a catholic, went to catholic schools, had personal experiences that she believed to be god. She goes through her life events, stories in the bible, etc. in a very respectable way and gives her thoughts on religion, god, and so on and so forth. She hits many different points on religion and life. I enjoyed it very much and if you can watch it with an open mind & not allowing your beliefs to make premature judgments, you can admit her logical, critical skills she shows on this issue.

Let me know if any of you have watched the entire show and what you think of it..

ABrownLamp
12-17-2009, 03:14 AM
I don't know what your circumstances were, or where you were at spritually, 15 years ago. I hope you don't think that a healthy relationship with God means that you will never suffer any tragedy. Bad things happen to those who follow Jesus just as much as anyone else in the world.

You rejected Jesus 10 years ago and will only believe if he shows up once again, yet....he did in fact show up 2000 years ago, and died for all of us so that we may be able to have that relationship with God. When he comes again it won't be to die for us, it will be for judgment and justice. The time now is for us to decide what we will do with his grace, before he comes back to deliver his justice. Once he returns....it will be too late.


So...it really gets back to the original question....what will you do if Jesus returns tomorrow?


I never said bad things wont happen to believers. You know I didn't. Not only that, but you completely glossed over what I said, and reasked me a question I already answered.

See, this is the problem with a lot of believers, they refuse to think about deeper and more difficult questions. I said to you, Jesus has never given me the love I need to believe in him. He has never comforted me. He has never answered a prayer. So why would I accept or love him? Am I supposed to force myself?

You are free to respond or not respond to this obviously, and you can respond however you want. I know thats what you're going to say because it's easy to say that. So go ahead and ask again about what I'm going to do when Jesus comes again or what if I'm wrong about him as if those questions havnt been answered over and over again.

ABrownLamp
12-17-2009, 03:28 AM
I appreciate your post very much Lampy, and I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your family tragedy, whatever it may have been. I wish I could have been there for you 15 years ago. I'm hoping you had other loved ones who were. I'm here now though if you ever want to talk about it.

I don't think a person can force themselves to believe or that this is even what God wants. However, I do think a person can force themselves to give God a chance. I think a person can force themselves to pull down their barriers and honestly open themselves up to the possibility of God and to let Him come into their hearts when He knocks on the door. This is likely what many people need to do before they will be able to find Him on a personal level.

My understanding is that God speaks to each of us, but most of the time we simply can not hear Him because of a variety of reasons. These include things like a predisposition to disbelieve, or other distractions we may be living with, or even an immoveable idea about what God is like or what an encounter with God would be like. Personally, I think we would all be surprised to know how much support we have received that we were not aware of.

IMHO, I, like all Christians, have been given a message to deliver to you (and everyone else) and that message is that Jesus does love you Lampy and He wants you back. Christians like myself take courage in the belief that He is going to return someday to this world and when He does, He is going to put an end to all of the tragedy and suffering that we face here. We are all invited to join Him in paradise.

Thanks for the kind words. I don't have a problem believing that there is a higher power or some sort of cosmic entity that created everything. I just dont believe in any of the religions and I'm certainly not going to worship something like that. I've read and heard the stories in the Bible, and theres just no way I could ever accept those stories as truth. Especially knowing how full of BS people are. Now can you imagine how easy it must have been to lie and make up things thousands of years ago?

I have no problem with people who believe in God because it makes them feel good. But that doesnt mean God exists. Here's an analogy... Let's say a woman who has cancer goes to the doctor, and the doctor tells her it's not cancer. And now she feels incredible and relieved and full of happiness. Just because she feels good, doesn't mean it's the truth. And that's my problem with people telling me to "open my heart to God." It doesnt make it any more factual. I'm more concerned with the knowing truth than living in some sort of religious bliss.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-17-2009, 06:45 AM
“I don't have a problem believing that there is a higher power or some sort of cosmic entity that created everything. I just dont believe in any of the religions”

“I'm more concerned with the knowing truth than living in some sort of religious bliss.”

I will be blunt, you can’t handle the truth, and you are not the only one, many people are. If you really want to know the truth, it is all there in the Bible, seek and ye shall find.

Listening to your reasons is like saying George Washington was a fable, and so was Columbus, just because it is written in the history books doesn’t mean it was true. The dolphins didn’t go 17-0 what BS is that, no team can go undefeated. Somebody is lying.

Let’s see now, the story of Noah’s ark is written in the history of over 50 cultures all over the world. That can’t be, only the JEWS knew about Noah. Sorry the story is even told in the south pacific.
http://www.theoutlaws.com/unexplained10.htm
Scholars now know that the story of a Great Flood is not confined to the Bible.


Giants on earth? Can’t be I believe only in evolution, and giants are only fables in the Bible. Really go do your research, giants were all over the earth.
http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html


Parting of the red sea?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168
Pharoah’s chariots found in the Red sea
'Physical evidence' of ancient Exodus
prompting new look at Old Testament

Many many more evidence in archeological discoveries exist not just in the Bible or other history books, it is all around. What more evidence do you need.

As far as religion is concerned, the Bible says EVERY person is not perfect, that means every guru, pastor, priest and Pope, so I don’t blame you for feeling skeptical, but YOU have to make a choice, believe in Jesus.

I look at all the evidence, I’m convinced, Reggie White was convinced, George Foreman was convinced, Deon Sanders etc., the reason why many are not convinced yet is because they haven’t done their homework, or they just refuse to do it.

Even the Muslims are convinced. (And BTW Christians will not force you, that is the love, it is your choice.)

The main idea is this – The religions and the people may be wrong, off base etc., but the main principle is correct…there is a God and you have to make a choice…again, believe in Jesus.


And now, does Jesus love you? he always has and always will.
If there is tragedy in this world as you have had, it is because of Satan and his demons. We are but a small part of the universe, and according to the Bible, Satan is challenging the entire universe that HE can rule the universe and not God. Thus while God loves you he has to give Satan free play and reign so that he can prove by his FAILURE that he CANNOT be the ruler. The universe is watching, if God intervenes then Satan can say that he wasn’t given full opportunity. God loves you, all you gotta do is believe in Jesus, that’s the free pass.

tylerdolphin
12-17-2009, 09:00 AM
Let’s see now, the story of Noah’s ark is written in the history of over 50 cultures all over the world. That can’t be, only the JEWS knew about Noah. Sorry the story is even told in the south pacific.
Funny how all these cultures wrote about a flood that wiped all the people off the Earth. Kinda difficult to write about your experiences in the Great Flood if you, you know, died like the Bible said.

Big floods happen all the time. None of them were more than regional, and none wiped out the entire population of these regions. The fact that they write about these floods proves the point.

ABrownLamp
12-17-2009, 11:51 AM
“I don't have a problem believing that there is a higher power or some sort of cosmic entity that created everything. I just dont believe in any of the religions”

“I'm more concerned with the knowing truth than living in some sort of religious bliss.”

I will be blunt, you can’t handle the truth, and you are not the only one, many people are. If you really want to know the truth, it is all there in the Bible, seek and ye shall find.

Listening to your reasons is like saying George Washington was a fable, and so was Columbus, just because it is written in the history books doesn’t mean it was true. The dolphins didn’t go 17-0 what BS is that, no team can go undefeated. Somebody is lying.

Let’s see now, the story of Noah’s ark is written in the history of over 50 cultures all over the world. That can’t be, only the JEWS knew about Noah. Sorry the story is even told in the south pacific.
http://www.theoutlaws.com/unexplained10.htm
Scholars now know that the story of a Great Flood is not confined to the Bible.


Giants on earth? Can’t be I believe only in evolution, and giants are only fables in the Bible. Really go do your research, giants were all over the earth.
http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html


Parting of the red sea?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168
Pharoah’s chariots found in the Red sea
'Physical evidence' of ancient Exodus
prompting new look at Old Testament

Many many more evidence in archeological discoveries exist not just in the Bible or other history books, it is all around. What more evidence do you need.

As far as religion is concerned, the Bible says EVERY person is not perfect, that means every guru, pastor, priest and Pope, so I don’t blame you for feeling skeptical, but YOU have to make a choice, believe in Jesus.

I look at all the evidence, I’m convinced, Reggie White was convinced, George Foreman was convinced, Deon Sanders etc., the reason why many are not convinced yet is because they haven’t done their homework, or they just refuse to do it.

Even the Muslims are convinced. (And BTW Christians will not force you, that is the love, it is your choice.)

The main idea is this – The religions and the people may be wrong, off base etc., but the main principle is correct…there is a God and you have to make a choice…again, believe in Jesus.


And now, does Jesus love you? he always has and always will.
If there is tragedy in this world as you have had, it is because of Satan and his demons. We are but a small part of the universe, and according to the Bible, Satan is challenging the entire universe that HE can rule the universe and not God. Thus while God loves you he has to give Satan free play and reign so that he can prove by his FAILURE that he CANNOT be the ruler. The universe is watching, if God intervenes then Satan can say that he wasn’t given full opportunity. God loves you, all you gotta do is believe in Jesus, that’s the free pass.

Honestly, you just gave me a whole bunch of nothing here.

Why would you tell me Jesus loves me when I specifically stated that wasnt the issue I was having. You guys have these RolloDex of responses and drag them out even if they dont apply. Why would you post a link to Noahs Ark or giants on Earth in response to what I said?

1Hawdolfin4L
12-17-2009, 01:59 PM
I've read and heard the stories in the Bible, and theres just no way I could ever accept those stories as truth.

What does this mean? My links point to possible evidence that the stories are true.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-17-2009, 02:02 PM
The fact is I served Jesus divorce papers over a decade ago. If he really loves me, he should be the one who says "I love you now"

Did you forget about this line? Jesus will always love you.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-17-2009, 02:15 PM
Big floods happen all the time. None of them were more than regional, and none wiped out the entire population of these regions. The fact that they write about these floods proves the point.

And I ask what are the chances that ALL of the stories are of the same theme?

A single family surviving. Why not three families, or a small group? It is always the same, a single family.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-17-2009, 02:21 PM
Kinda difficult to write about your experiences in the Great Flood if you, you know, died like the Bible said.

Only 1 family survived, and if you go further in the Bible, they eventually built a city called Babylon, and it is there that God confused the people and caused many people to separate and go their own way speaking many different languages, and these people went to the four corners of the world and taking with them the story of the GREAT FLOOD.

Dolphan7
12-17-2009, 02:41 PM
Tower of Babel.....where all the people were dispersed and separated by language. Each group taking the story of the Great Flood with them throughout the globe.

tylerdolphin
12-17-2009, 03:09 PM
Only 1 family survived, and if you go further in the Bible, they eventually built a city called Babylon, and it is there that God confused the people and caused many people to separate and go their own way speaking many different languages, and these people went to the four corners of the world and taking with them the story of the GREAT FLOOD.
And they just randomly wandered over and found the Caribbean? And turned into Indians while they were at it? Its stuff like that which makes me a skeptic...I can't make myself believe it. I just can't. If God wanted me to believe, he could have made things much more obvious. Theres just no way I can read Genesis and take it seriously.

Dolphan7
12-17-2009, 04:14 PM
And they just randomly wandered over and found the Caribbean? And turned into Indians while they were at it? Its stuff like that which makes me a skeptic...I can't make myself believe it. I just can't. If God wanted me to believe, he could have made things much more obvious. Theres just no way I can read Genesis and take it seriously.Have you heard of studies of genetics and isolated people groups? Are you familiar with melanin and how it effects skin color depending on how much sunlight they get? Ever wonder why people closer to the equator are darker than those of the frigid north? It is very possible and plausible that the dispersed people of the Babel era were separated by language primarily, thus forcing them to congregate together.... in regions of their own, and through breeding and interbreeding began to look the same or similar according to their environment and whatever was in their genetic makeup at the time?

Plausible? Possible?

If the bible is true, then these people groups managed to get to where they are and look like they do....somehow. We are not proclaiming to know exactly every minute detail of what happened....but we can surmise a great deal from the old texts....and modern science.

The issue of whether you believe this or not is really not the issue. The issue is - Is the bible correct....Is Jesus real and is he the real deal. That is what you really need to either accept or reject. It makes no sense to reject God because you don't understand something from the bible, when you really need to find out if God really is true or not.

Dolphan7
12-17-2009, 04:50 PM
I never said bad things wont happen to believers. You know I didn't. Not only that, but you completely glossed over what I said, and re-asked me a question I already answered.

See, this is the problem with a lot of believers, they refuse to think about deeper and more difficult questions. I said to you, Jesus has never given me the love I need to believe in him. He has never comforted me. He has never answered a prayer. So why would I accept or love him? Am I supposed to force myself?

You are free to respond or not respond to this obviously, and you can respond however you want. I know that's what you're going to say because it's easy to say that. So go ahead and ask again about what I'm going to do when Jesus comes again or what if I'm wrong about him as if those questions haven't been answered over and over again.I didn't imply that you did. I was simply stating a fact. Even believers suffer through tragedy. How does Jesus comfort them/us? I get comfort knowing why bad things happen. I get comfort knowing that there will be a tomorrow, better days. I get comfort knowing that one day this will all be over...whether in my lifetime, or beyond. I get comfort in knowing that Jesus and God didn't want this to happen, and they are just as sad about it. I get comfort knowing that God could step in and save the day and remove all sin in the world, all suffering and pain and hurt, if he could, but he can't. I get comfort in knowing that God will make all things for good, even bad things that happen...when people turn toward him and work with him in the process. I've seen it happen. God works all things for good for those who love obey him. Romans 8:28

I get comfort in my fellow believers who help me through my pain. I get comfort from my fellow believers in that they will tell me the truth, even when it is hard to accept that some of the things I have done have caused my pain. I get comfort from my fellow believers that they will be there with me through thick and thin to help me overcome my loss, or pain or hurt.

You see.....it is just like a parent and a child. When my son burns his hand in a fire, I hurt just as much as he does. I want to make the pain go away...but I can't. I want to protect him every step of his life so that he never suffers any pain or hardship....but I can't. All I can do is show him that I love him, teach him all that he needs to know....and hope and pray he is listening. When he searches me out for advice and companionship....then there is that relationship wherein I can help and guide him....where I can demonstrate how much I love him and care for him and am only looking out for what is best for him........rather than him walking away from me ...not seeking my advice....not listening to me.... and I not knowing what he is going through and not being there to help. See the difference?

It is all about a relationship with God, not a religion that you simply do this and do that and expect something in return. A relationship with God is much like a relationship between a man and a wife....or a parent and a child. It requires an investment. You don't tell your wife you love her at the alter...then do nothing to reinforce that throughout the entire marriage do you? If I did that I wouldn't be married for long would I. It takes commitment to the relationship. With God it is no different. When people accept God and obey him and try to do the best they can, God then can work within their lives for the good...even when the world makes it bad.

As I said earlier...I don't know what happened 15 years ago with you. Maybe you lost a loved one. Maybe you have a physical disability. Maybe something bad happened to you as a child or adolescent. I don't know...and I don't need to know. But if you expected Jesus to swoop down out of the sky and make it all better...then you don't understand what He is all about. If you had known Jesus back then the way I know Jesus.....you would have gone through your tragedy much better than you did...this I know for sure. I have seen it happen...in my life..and in others. I don't know what happened to you, but I do care. I care for your soul and only want what is best for you in God's eyes.

I am not going to ask my question again. It was never really meant to be anything but a rhetorical question anyway. It is meant to give pause and thought to ones own fate. I don't need to know your answer, because I already know. The question was meant for you to answer for yourself, and keep it to yourself if you so desire.

I am always interested in people stories and questions. Feel free to pm me if you want to.

D7

GoonBoss
12-18-2009, 02:46 AM
Ah, the old "just in case" Christian mindset.

It just makes me shake my head. Like I said...Scare tactics don't work on me.

aesop
12-18-2009, 12:16 PM
I get comfort in my fellow believers who help me through my pain. I get comfort from my fellow believers in that they will tell me the truth, even when it is hard to accept that some of the things I have done have caused my pain. I get comfort from my fellow believers that they will be there with me through thick and thin to help me overcome my loss, or pain or hurt.

You see.....it is just like a parent and a child. When my son burns his hand in a fire, I hurt just as much as he does. I want to make the pain go away...but I can't. I want to protect him every step of his life so that he never suffers any pain or hardship....but I can't. All I can do is show him that I love him, teach him all that he needs to know....and hope and pray he is listening. When he searches me out for advice and companionship....then there is that relationship wherein I can help and guide him....where I can demonstrate how much I love him and care for him and am only looking out for what is best for him........rather than him walking away from me ...not seeking my advice....not listening to me.... and I not knowing what he is going through and not being there to help. See the difference?The difference is even though you can't protect him from all hardship and pain, you can still have a direct influence over him and can protect him from some things. God has never cleaned off a cut of mine with rubbing alcohol and gotten me a bandaid and some ice cream to make me feel better. My mother did, though. It goes back to the old "Thank God for our bountiful meal and the roof over our head" dinner prayer. If God is providing me all this, why am I the one busting my *** every day to get the food and shelter? Why doesn't he come into work for me a couple hours before I get out and say, "I've got it from here, my son. You go home and enjoy my bountiful creation."

You say you got comfort from fellow believers. Maybe it was them telling you "God has a plan" or "Jesus loves you", but that doesn't equal God helping you directly. People, things and activities provide comfort.. not God. Maybe the act of going to church helps you or just the thought that, "Hey, someone out there is looking over me" brings you comfort.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-18-2009, 04:03 PM
Hope this helps somebody, anybody

I thank God to be alive today, for he has kept me alive one more day so that I could witness the marvelous glory that is placed before me, beautiful people, houses, cars, the inventions of men’s mind, the water in the sea, and in the air, the extremely tiny DNA and atoms and sub particles. Yes they all witness to me as glories from God, so that I can witness them for myself. It is so beautiful, and people they are like the flowers of a garden, brown, red, black, yellow, white, mixed, long haired, short haired, curly, straight, muscular, skinny, fat, blue eyed, brown, all kinds.
He also makes me witness cancer, racism, AIDS, murder, rape and anything that is horrifyingly gruesome as a witness to failure for the things that need God’s help. Demand that they witness to you and show God’s glory and not Satan’s camouflage, see beyond the smoke and beyond the clouds, the façade.
If everything was hunky dory goodie good we become complacent and forget who our maker is, so God allows Satan to mutilate, manipulate and conjure up anything to dissuade people from believing God and seeing his glory, but it is all there, just look.
You are blessed to be a part of the most glorious theatrical reality TV/Universe picture ever. You are a part of it. If you fail to see the glory of God before you die and believe in Jesus, the angels in Heaven sigh, but if you believe, there are praises of high glory.
Your time here on earth is not even a faction of a sand in an hour glass the size of which is as large as the universe, whatever happens is mute… when Jesus summons you up and graduate to life everlasting. Cancer? What cancer, child died? What child died, we are all here, what year was that?
Don’t let Satan persuade you, see the glory, take hold of it, grab it, everything here is temporary, ...again, everything here is temporary, I don’t need this car, I don’t need this suit, I don’t need this house, I don’t need this climate change, but whatever happens, happens and it is temporal .
Thank you for the food, and thank you for showing me the starving people in Asia, it is showing me that we need you God, and I know that if they die, it is only temporal a faction in time, and people came to see your glory and was saved.


Amen

Dolphan7
12-18-2009, 06:31 PM
The difference is even though you can't protect him from all hardship and pain, you can still have a direct influence over him and can protect him from some things. God has never cleaned off a cut of mine with rubbing alcohol and gotten me a bandaid and some ice cream to make me feel better. My mother did, though. It goes back to the old "Thank God for our bountiful meal and the roof over our head" dinner prayer. If God is providing me all this, why am I the one busting my *** every day to get the food and shelter? Why doesn't he come into work for me a couple hours before I get out and say, "I've got it from here, my son. You go home and enjoy my bountiful creation."

You say you got comfort from fellow believers. Maybe it was them telling you "God has a plan" or "Jesus loves you", but that doesn't equal God helping you directly. People, things and activities provide comfort.. not God. Maybe the act of going to church helps you or just the thought that, "Hey, someone out there is looking over me" brings you comfort.LOL...why doesn't Jesus work for you?


Because he can't. We're cursed to work for a living.

Ge 3:17 The LORD God said to Adam, “You listened to your wife. You ate the fruit of the tree that I commanded you about. I said, ‘You must not eat its fruit.’
“So I am putting a curse on the ground because of what you did.
All the days of your life you will have to work hard
to get food from the ground.
Ge 3:18 You will eat the plants of the field,
even though the ground produces thorns and thistles.
Ge 3:19 You will have to work hard and sweat a lot
to produce the food you eat.I guess what I am saying is that knowledge is comfort. Simply knowing that God exists and understanding why we are here and who I am in the grand scheme of things....is comforting to know. Knowing how to live life right, and how to avoid living the wrong way that can lead to bad things...is comforting. Having all the answers to a test beforehand is very comforting. Having friends to comfort and support you, that share a common bond with you in the mutual belief in said God....is a comfort....not directly from God....but provided by God in the grand scheme of things.

Certainly there are creature comforts of this world that make our lives much easier and happier. But to not credit those and much more to God is the height of rebellion against such a God. God provides the air that you breath. He provides the planet you walk and live on. He provides the food you eat.....yes..He created all these things that you apparently are taking for granted. He even created you in His own image and likeness. And in spite of it all ...He loves you...so much that he gave you a get out of hell free card in the name and person of Jesus Christ by what he did on the cross.

Every time you look at your body in the mirror, eat, drink, breath, walk, run, feel happy, fall in love, sex, feel a sense of accomplishment...etc..it is God who has His stamp on all of that. He created all these things and created us this way.

So when you see people thanking God for "this day, this bounty etc..." you know what that means.

Dolphan7
12-18-2009, 06:39 PM
It just makes me shake my head. Like I said...Scare tactics don't work on me.You can call it scare tactics if you so choose.......but i like to call it......telling you the truth. It is all I can do...and all I am called to do.

If you have any questions I would be more than willing to discuss them with you.

HansMojo
12-19-2009, 05:35 AM
Thanks for the kind words. I don't have a problem believing that there is a higher power or some sort of cosmic entity that created everything. I just dont believe in any of the religions and I'm certainly not going to worship something like that. I've read and heard the stories in the Bible, and theres just no way I could ever accept those stories as truth. Especially knowing how full of BS people are. Now can you imagine how easy it must have been to lie and make up things thousands of years ago?

I have no problem with people who believe in God because it makes them feel good. But that doesnt mean God exists. Here's an analogy... Let's say a woman who has cancer goes to the doctor, and the doctor tells her it's not cancer. And now she feels incredible and relieved and full of happiness. Just because she feels good, doesn't mean it's the truth. And that's my problem with people telling me to "open my heart to God." It doesnt make it any more factual. I'm more concerned with the knowing truth than living in some sort of religious bliss.

I understand where you are coming from (at least I'd like to think I do) and I honestly respect your desire to know truth and to not accept something just because it would be comforting to do so (or whatever). Of course, to me, truth is Jesus, and this is something that comes naturally for me given the life that I have lived and the experiences I have had.

When I hope that you will open your heart to God, this isn't a hope that you will claim/pretend to have a belief that you don't really have. I don't think there is any point to that. I wouldn't want anyone to do that. Rather, my hope is that you will someday (if you aren't already doing so) honestly give God a chance to make Himself known to you (beyond an acceptance that a Creator is a possibility). We, as sinful human beings, have this habit of unconsciously (sometimes consciously) building up barriers and hardening our hearts to God. We do this, in part, by developing/harboring preconceived ideas about who/what God is and how He and other things should or shouldn't be. In the process, we at least partially block out the possibility that God will be able to reach us. Is it possible that you have done this for the Christian God?

Here's an analogy. Imagine a very politically active person such as a Rush Limbaugh type. Now Rush is a very smart guy, but he is incredibly biased (IMHO). No matter what the issue, it is almost guaranteed that a guy like Rush is going to lean very hard to the right and argue his point from that perspective. Giving God a chance and opening the heart to Him, would be sort of like if Rush was to genuinely start giving left leaning ideas a *real* chance before deciding to push against them (and not just once or twice, but for the long haul). Maybe Rush already does this and so my analogy falls apart, but it just seems to me that he doesn't really try to understand the left's point of view (beyond doing so for the purpose of being able to better argue against it) nor does he ever really seems to give them the benefit of the doubt. Rather, he seems to automatically go to a place where "they" and their policies are wrong and only his way (the conservative way) is the right way...and this seems to happen on a consistent basis. Of course, maybe he is actually perfectly intellectually honest, and it's all just an act for his radio show. Anyway, its just an analogy and a quickly cobbled together one at that, so please don't take it very far. My point is really just that my hope is that everyone, yourself included, would honestly give God a chance even though this can be very hard to do considering all the walls we put up and all the bias we develop over the course of our lives.

Oh, one last thing. IMHO, finding God is a journey rather than an event, so patience is a necessity. I could be wrong, but I believe that anyone who truly seeks the Lord will find Him...eventually. Peace.

aesop
12-19-2009, 11:53 AM
Because he can't. We're cursed to work for a living. I guess what I am saying is that knowledge is comfort. Simply knowing that God exists and understanding why we are here and who I am in the grand scheme of things....is comforting to know. Knowing how to live life right, and how to avoid living the wrong way that can lead to bad things...is comforting. Having all the answers to a test beforehand is very comforting. Having friends to comfort and support you, that share a common bond with you in the mutual belief in said God....is a comfort....not directly from God....but provided by God in the grand scheme of things.So basically it's just the idea of God that gives you comfort, like I was saying.


Certainly there are creature comforts of this world that make our lives much easier and happier. But to not credit those and much more to God is the height of rebellion against such a God. God provides the air that you breath. He provides the planet you walk and live on. He provides the food you eat.....yes..He created all these things that you apparently are taking for granted. He even created you in His own image and likeness. And in spite of it all ...He loves you...so much that he gave you a get out of hell free card in the name and person of Jesus Christ by what he did on the cross.He gave me a get out of hell free card? So then what's with all the talk about being damned to hell if we don't accept Jesus as our savior? It's a "get out of hell if you do everything correctly" card.


Every time you look at your body in the mirror, eat, drink, breath, walk, run, feel happy, fall in love, sex, feel a sense of accomplishment...etc..it is God who has His stamp on all of that. He created all these things and created us this way.And when I feel hate, pain, disappointment, heartbreak, thirst, hunger.. that is God, too. Right?

GoonBoss
12-19-2009, 12:41 PM
You can call it scare tactics if you so choose.......but i like to call it......telling you the truth. It is all I can do...and all I am called to do.

If you have any questions I would be more than willing to discuss them with you.

I think we've gone as far as we can go. Based on your faith, you believe in your god. That's great for you, but, it doesn't work for me. I'm not going to impose arbitrary limits and rules on my life because of faith in something that may or may not exist.

Again, if it can be proven to me, without the use of faith that God, as explained by the Christians exists, I'll gladly come on back to the fold. If not, I'll just have to remain a skeptic of a god who's sole purpose for creating us is to praise him or be damned to an eternity of torment.

Dolphan7
12-19-2009, 02:50 PM
So basically it's just the idea of God that gives you comfort, like I was saying. No that is not what I am saying, that is what you are saying. I take comfort in that fact that God does indeed exist, not just the "idea" that He exists. Huge difference. I have faith that God exists, but that isn't blind faith. It is based on some real evidence, not 100% complete, but enough to accept that which I don't know and understand on faith.


He gave me a get out of hell free card? So then what's with all the talk about being damned to hell if we don't accept Jesus as our savior? It's a "get out of hell if you do everything correctly" card.If God gives you something...you have to reach out your hand and accept it. Accepting Jesus as who he is, what he is....and what he did for you....it is called belief. That doesn't mean you have to be perfect. It doesn't mean you have to follow a certain set of rules like a religion...it is more about a relationship.

When you meet a girl for the first time....you do things to impress her, be around her more, the relationship grows and develops, there is communication as you both get to know each other. She show an interest in you, and in return you try to be the best friend/lover/companion etc....she ever had. This is a natural response when a girl shows an interest in you. Now lets say she gives you a gift on your...let's say...one year anniversary ....a huge diamond in-clustered Miami Dolphins helmet...worth a small fortune......do you blow it off...or do you realize the intent behind the gift, and that the relationship has just taken the next step in the relationship? You probably take it very seriously and because of that you respond in the appropriate way...maybe you ask her to marry you, maybe you demonstrate your love for her in some special and unique way....you change your life to fit more into hers etc......

That is the way it is with God, and Jesus. Accepting his gift at first is simply acknowledging who He is and what He did for you on the cross. That is the first step. Since he has given you this priceless gift, your response should be heartfelt, and based on that you will do everything you can to show how much you appreciate that priceless gift. You begin to change...slowly at first, just as you did when you first met that girl. You start to think of ways to make the relationship better, show more appreciation, spend more time together etc....just as you would with your new girlfriend. You'll start talking to God through prayer. You'll start reading His word in the bible. You'll start asking questions....which will lead you to other Christians who have the answers, which will lead you to want to be around those people because they have those answers, have your best interests at heart, want to help you...and actually do help you. This will lead you to a church where you can socialize with your new found fellow Christians, and get fed the Word through a weekly teaching, or maybe you go to a bible study group, or a men's group, or a men's softball league...or bowling...or whatever....Eventually you will start to see things differently. Your world view will change, your heart will change. You will see God's big picture. You will understand. All this time your faith will be increased and you will become more confident in your belief through evidence and experiences. YOu will become this person not because you had to follow some rules or a list of things to do...but because God is working in your heart and mind and you are changing because you know it is the right thing to do...you know this from your heart. I can't explain it any better....maybe Hans can put it into better words than I, but that is the gist of it all.


And when I feel hate, pain, disappointment, heartbreak, thirst, hunger.. that is God, too. Right?God gave us emotions when he created us. We all have them. What he teaches us is to understand what they are and how to control them at times. God isn't up there making your life miserable. God never intended for you to suffer. He gives you the tools to live by and the wisdom to handle just about anything...if only we would listen half the time....there wouldn't be half the problems there are. Sad. But true. God loves you...and doesn't want us to suffer...either here on earth or eternally...so He gave His only Son to die for our sins..so that we may live without suffering...in heaven....with Him....for eternity. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

Dolphan7
12-19-2009, 03:11 PM
I think we've gone as far as we can go. Based on your faith, you believe in your god. That's great for you, but, it doesn't work for me. I'm not going to impose arbitrary limits and rules on my life because of faith in something that may or may not exist.

Again, if it can be proven to me, without the use of faith that God, as explained by the Christians exists, I'll gladly come on back to the fold. If not, I'll just have to remain a skeptic of a god who's sole purpose for creating us is to praise him or be damned to an eternity of torment.Sadly I think you are right...we have gone as far as we can go. Your heart is hardened Goon. You keep asking for proof, yet...proof has already been given, you just won't accept it.

It is like with your kids. You can make sure they go to school. You can make sure they do their homework, maybe even help them as much as you can. But at the end of the day...they have to pass the tests all on their own. The info has been provided them, the help and guidance has been offered....but it is up to them to apply what they have learned. And after the tests are over.....that's it. There won't be any retests.

So it is With God. He has already given more than enough evidence for His existence. There won't be anymore miraculous events to point people to God. What we have is what we have ...now. That doesn't mean He won't make Himself evident to you personally, through some way shape or form.....but He ain't gonna do it with your arms folded and your head turned away and your heart hardened like it is. It will take you to actually make the effort to open your heart to His word. All I can do is pray for you and offer an open door to you should you have any questions.

I am here if you want. And if not there are others that I am sure would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

There is an interesting discussion in the Lean To Lounge in the POFO about how the teachers we have on the forum have heard so many excuses for their students not turning in their assignments. I am sure they have heard them all as they have made that clear...and none of them are valid. Each student has a responsibility to do the work and get it in on time. Period. There are no excuses.

Now I can imagine you facing God one day and attempting to explain to Him that you didn't accept Him because you didn't have any proof of His existence. And I can see God simply lowering His head and shaking it from side to side.....then looking over at Jesus...who in turn lowers His head and shakes it side to side.......

Goonboss....you have a responsibility to yourself for your eternal well being. It is yours and only yours. Each of us have our own to look after. There won't be any excuses when the time comes. None.

Romans 1 tells us this.


RO 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
RO 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
RO 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

aesop
12-19-2009, 04:04 PM
You keep asking for proof, yet...proof has already been given, you just won't accept it.The definition of proof is really where this debate always ends up going.

Dolphan7
12-19-2009, 04:40 PM
The definition of proof is really where this debate always ends up going.Yep. Proof is going to be different to each individual as each of us has different upbringing, education, presuppositions and biases as well as different ways of learning and explaining things.

What may be proof to one may not be to the next guy.

Some require little, some require lot's....and lot's.....and then lot's more after that. Some may require so much proof that no matter what they will not believe.

But....God has given us all enough proof.

It isn't matter of God not providing enough proof of His existence, but that people simply choose to not believe. It is a condition of the heart.

GoonBoss
12-19-2009, 05:30 PM
Yep. Proof is going to be different to each individual as each of us has different upbringing, education, presuppositions and biases as well as different ways of learning and explaining things.

What may be proof to one may not be to the next guy.

Some require little, some require lot's....and lot's.....and then lot's more after that. Some may require so much proof that no matter what they will not believe.

But....God has given us all enough proof.

It isn't matter of God not providing enough proof of His existence, but that people simply choose to not believe. It is a condition of the heart.

God's given YOU enough proof. Not every other person.

The fact of the matter, and where I have my biggest problem is that God created us, and put us on the planet for no other reason than to praise him or to be tormented forever.

What kind of a benevolent god does that?

GoonBoss
12-19-2009, 05:44 PM
Sadly I think you are right...we have gone as far as we can go. Your heart is hardened Goon. You keep asking for proof, yet...proof has already been given, you just won't accept it.

It is like with your kids. You can make sure they go to school. You can make sure they do their homework, maybe even help them as much as you can. But at the end of the day...they have to pass the tests all on their own. The info has been provided them, the help and guidance has been offered....but it is up to them to apply what they have learned. And after the tests are over.....that's it. There won't be any retests.

So it is With God. He has already given more than enough evidence for His existence. There won't be anymore miraculous events to point people to God. What we have is what we have ...now. That doesn't mean He won't make Himself evident to you personally, through some way shape or form.....but He ain't gonna do it with your arms folded and your head turned away and your heart hardened like it is. It will take you to actually make the effort to open your heart to His word. All I can do is pray for you and offer an open door to you should you have any questions.

I am here if you want. And if not there are others that I am sure would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

There is an interesting discussion in the Lean To Lounge in the POFO about how the teachers we have on the forum have heard so many excuses for their students not turning in their assignments. I am sure they have heard them all as they have made that clear...and none of them are valid. Each student has a responsibility to do the work and get it in on time. Period. There are no excuses.

Now I can imagine you facing God one day and attempting to explain to Him that you didn't accept Him because you didn't have any proof of His existence. And I can see God simply lowering His head and shaking it from side to side.....then looking over at Jesus...who in turn lowers His head and shakes it side to side.......

Goonboss....you have a responsibility to yourself for your eternal well being. It is yours and only yours. Each of us have our own to look after. There won't be any excuses when the time comes. None.

Romans 1 tells us this.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I accept that. My heart is hard. I also admit that. God could prove to me he exists. It is within his power. With less than a figguritive wave of his hand, he could prove to everyone that he exists, but he won't. He won't because he either doesn't exist, or does exist and is fine with some of us burning in hell because he simply won't give the proof he knows we need. to accept him. God chooses not to give it and chooses to damn those of us that don't take things on faith.

He already knows which of us will and will not accept him, does he not?

So he created us, knowing that by doing so he damns a number of us, who never asked to be created to eternal torment.

What kind of a god is that, really?

Dolphan7
12-19-2009, 05:54 PM
God's given YOU enough proof. Not every other person.

The fact of the matter, and where I have my biggest problem is that God created us, and put us on the planet for no other reason than to praise him or to be tormented forever.

What kind of a benevolent god does that?I understand the point you are making....I really do..because I have heard it so many times. It is a very common perception of the Christian God.......unfortunately an incorrect one.

God didn't create us and put us here to either worship him or send us to hell. He didn't. That was not his intent nor his desire.

Now....if you are interested in the real reason why we are here, I will explain it.

GoonBoss
12-19-2009, 06:10 PM
I understand the point you are making....I really do..because I have heard it so many times. It is a very common perception of the Christian God.......unfortunately an incorrect one.

God didn't create us and put us here to either worship him or send us to hell. He didn't. That was not his intent nor his desire.

Now....if you are interested in the real reason why we are here, I will explain it.

Please do.

Don't take that as snippy. I'm honestly not trying to be an *******.

aesop
12-19-2009, 09:51 PM
In other news, the meaning of life has been uncovered on a United States based web forum. At Finheaven (Go Deep), a heated debate ensued about the origins of life and the existence of a higher power. Around page 16, forum moderator and frequent contributer 'Dolphan7' bestowed upon the world the meaning of life:

Dolphan7
12-19-2009, 10:13 PM
In other news, the meaning of life has been uncovered on a United States based web forum. At Finheaven (Go Deep), a heated debate ensued about the origins of life and the existence of a higher power. Around page 16, forum moderator and frequent contributor 'Dolphan7' bestowed upon the world the meaning of life::lol:

That's actually pretty funny. Even though I know you meant it as an insult.

Dolphan7
12-19-2009, 10:33 PM
Please do.

Don't take that as snippy. I'm honestly not trying to be an *******.God's intent is clearly laid out in the first two chapters of Genesis. He created the universe and the earth. He created all the plant and animals for us to sustain us and help us. He created man in His own image and likeness. He gave man a helper, a woman, whom he also created. They were to live in what is called the Garden of Eden, with God, in fellowship. That was God's intent. That was his desire....to be with us as a teacher, guide, father, God, etc.....There was no such thing as evil...only complete fellowship with God...where every question would be answered, every need met, every desire fulfilled. That was the way it was supposed to be, the way God planned it. That would have continued indefinitely....but something changed beginning in chapter three. Chapter three describes the fall of man. This is something God did not do, did not desire, did not intend for it to happen. And he did not cause it. As I said....His intent was to have fellowship with man in the Garden of Eden indefinitely.

So that is why we are here. There is no mention of choosing Him or suffering in hell for not choosing Him. No where in there is any mention of dying, pain, suffering, hurt, hell.....nothing. It was supposed to be us and Him forever. Indeed it could be considered heaven on earth if you will.

aesop
12-19-2009, 10:52 PM
:lol:

That's actually pretty funny. Even though I know you meant it as an insult.Not an insult. Just commenting on how ridiculous this is in the grand scheme of things. I mean, our season is on the line tomorrow.

Dolphan7
12-19-2009, 11:17 PM
Not an insult. Just commenting on how ridiculous this is in the grand scheme of things. I mean, our season is on the line tomorrow.I know. And I will be praying to God for a victory. Who will you be praying to?

HansMojo
12-19-2009, 11:31 PM
God's given YOU enough proof. Not every other person.

The fact of the matter, and where I have my biggest problem is that God created us, and put us on the planet for no other reason than to praise him or to be tormented forever.

What kind of a benevolent god does that?

Hey GoonBoss, at the top of page 7 of this very thread I had posted a long response to you (to a post that had raised a similar concern of yours). But, you never responded to my post and as a result I have not stopped crying about it ever since. :boohoo: You cut me deep man. You cut me deep.

Hansmojo -->:pop: <--GoonBoss

GoonBoss
12-20-2009, 02:02 AM
Hey GoonBoss, at the top of page 7 of this very thread I had posted a long response to you (to a post that had raised a similar concern of yours). But, you never responded to my post and as a result I have not stopped crying about it ever since. :boohoo: You cut me deep man. You cut me deep.

Hansmojo -->:pop: <--GoonBoss

Sorry man. I'll check it out.

syborg
12-20-2009, 08:12 AM
God sent us Jesus as proof of his love and goodness. . if we dont believe after that well then there is nothing else God can do short of snatching away your free will and making you a robot. . which is not what he wants he wants you to want him. .

aesop
12-20-2009, 03:28 PM
God sent us Jesus as proof of his love and goodness. . if we dont believe after that well then there is nothing else God can do short of snatching away your free will and making you a robot. . which is not what he wants he wants you to want him. .No, he allegedly 'sent' Jesus to some other people from a couple thousand years ago. Never did get to meet the guy.

aesop
12-20-2009, 03:29 PM
I know. And I will be praying to God for a victory. Who will you be praying to?Don Shula.

Dolphan7
12-20-2009, 09:31 PM
Don Shula.Well...I guess neither of our prayers were answered.

Dolphan7
12-20-2009, 09:32 PM
No, he allegedly 'sent' Jesus to some other people from a couple thousand years ago. Never did get to meet the guy.Don't worry......You will!

ABrownLamp
12-22-2009, 02:07 AM
I didn't imply that you did. I was simply stating a fact. Even believers suffer through tragedy. How does Jesus comfort them/us? I get comfort knowing why bad things happen. I get comfort knowing that there will be a tomorrow, better days. I get comfort knowing that one day this will all be over...whether in my lifetime, or beyond. I get comfort in knowing that Jesus and God didn't want this to happen, and they are just as sad about it. I get comfort knowing that God could step in and save the day and remove all sin in the world, all suffering and pain and hurt, if he could, but he can't. I get comfort in knowing that God will make all things for good, even bad things that happen...when people turn toward him and work with him in the process. I've seen it happen. God works all things for good for those who love obey him. Romans 8:28

I get comfort in my fellow believers who help me through my pain. I get comfort from my fellow believers in that they will tell me the truth, even when it is hard to accept that some of the things I have done have caused my pain. I get comfort from my fellow believers that they will be there with me through thick and thin to help me overcome my loss, or pain or hurt.

You see.....it is just like a parent and a child. When my son burns his hand in a fire, I hurt just as much as he does. I want to make the pain go away...but I can't. I want to protect him every step of his life so that he never suffers any pain or hardship....but I can't. All I can do is show him that I love him, teach him all that he needs to know....and hope and pray he is listening. When he searches me out for advice and companionship....then there is that relationship wherein I can help and guide him....where I can demonstrate how much I love him and care for him and am only looking out for what is best for him........rather than him walking away from me ...not seeking my advice....not listening to me.... and I not knowing what he is going through and not being there to help. See the difference?

It is all about a relationship with God, not a religion that you simply do this and do that and expect something in return. A relationship with God is much like a relationship between a man and a wife....or a parent and a child. It requires an investment. You don't tell your wife you love her at the alter...then do nothing to reinforce that throughout the entire marriage do you? If I did that I wouldn't be married for long would I. It takes commitment to the relationship. With God it is no different. When people accept God and obey him and try to do the best they can, God then can work within their lives for the good...even when the world makes it bad.

As I said earlier...I don't know what happened 15 years ago with you. Maybe you lost a loved one. Maybe you have a physical disability. Maybe something bad happened to you as a child or adolescent. I don't know...and I don't need to know. But if you expected Jesus to swoop down out of the sky and make it all better...then you don't understand what He is all about. If you had known Jesus back then the way I know Jesus.....you would have gone through your tragedy much better than you did...this I know for sure. I have seen it happen...in my life..and in others. I don't know what happened to you, but I do care. I care for your soul and only want what is best for you in God's eyes.

I am not going to ask my question again. It was never really meant to be anything but a rhetorical question anyway. It is meant to give pause and thought to ones own fate. I don't need to know your answer, because I already know. The question was meant for you to answer for yourself, and keep it to yourself if you so desire.

I am always interested in people stories and questions. Feel free to pm me if you want to.

D7


I know bad things happen to good people: believers and nonbelievers. I undersatnd that when bad things happen to believers they read the Bible and pray, and many times it helps comfort them. I get that it does this for you and thats why you believe. But it doesnt do any of that for me. I can't just try harder to understand god anymore than you can try harder to get right with the greek gods. I just cant, and neither could you, so the, well it works for me concept doesnt really help.

As far as God as a parental figure, I dont see how that could be true for an atheist. I have a mother and a father who provided for me and taught me life lessons. I've only read the Bible in passing throughout my life and so far everythings turned out pretty good. A lot better than most I'd say. And I didnt need to read the Bible for any of it.

As for my personal experience, my 12 year old sister died in a car crash 15 years ago. My mother was driving. God gave me absolutely no comfort through this time, and infact, attempting to understand him actually drove me further away from him. The result thus far is that my parents are still happilly married (which is unusual when a child dies), they adopted a child from Romania and we were awarded the most money for a negligence lawsuit in the history of Florida, so my family is financially secure for generations.

I've been very lucky with all the things that have happened to me in my life, even in tragedy, and the reason I mention all of this is to highlight why it would be impossible for me to just "try some more" It doesnt make sense to me to try, just like greek gods dont make sense for you

ABrownLamp
12-22-2009, 02:27 AM
I understand where you are coming from (at least I'd like to think I do) and I honestly respect your desire to know truth and to not accept something just because it would be comforting to do so (or whatever). Of course, to me, truth is Jesus, and this is something that comes naturally for me given the life that I have lived and the experiences I have had.

When I hope that you will open your heart to God, this isn't a hope that you will claim/pretend to have a belief that you don't really have. I don't think there is any point to that. I wouldn't want anyone to do that. Rather, my hope is that you will someday (if you aren't already doing so) honestly give God a chance to make Himself known to you (beyond an acceptance that a Creator is a possibility). We, as sinful human beings, have this habit of unconsciously (sometimes consciously) building up barriers and hardening our hearts to God. We do this, in part, by developing/harboring preconceived ideas about who/what God is and how He and other things should or shouldn't be. In the process, we at least partially block out the possibility that God will be able to reach us. Is it possible that you have done this for the Christian God?

Here's an analogy. Imagine a very politically active person such as a Rush Limbaugh type. Now Rush is a very smart guy, but he is incredibly biased (IMHO). No matter what the issue, it is almost guaranteed that a guy like Rush is going to lean very hard to the right and argue his point from that perspective. Giving God a chance and opening the heart to Him, would be sort of like if Rush was to genuinely start giving left leaning ideas a *real* chance before deciding to push against them (and not just once or twice, but for the long haul). Maybe Rush already does this and so my analogy falls apart, but it just seems to me that he doesn't really try to understand the left's point of view (beyond doing so for the purpose of being able to better argue against it) nor does he ever really seems to give them the benefit of the doubt. Rather, he seems to automatically go to a place where "they" and their policies are wrong and only his way (the conservative way) is the right way...and this seems to happen on a consistent basis. Of course, maybe he is actually perfectly intellectually honest, and it's all just an act for his radio show. Anyway, its just an analogy and a quickly cobbled together one at that, so please don't take it very far. My point is really just that my hope is that everyone, yourself included, would honestly give God a chance even though this can be very hard to do considering all the walls we put up and all the bias we develop over the course of our lives.

Oh, one last thing. IMHO, finding God is a journey rather than an event, so patience is a necessity. I could be wrong, but I believe that anyone who truly seeks the Lord will find Him...eventually. Peace.

You are right, I have completely dismissed the idea of a Christian god. I have hardened my heart to him, as you have said. It just doesnt make sense to me any more than Greek mythology makes to you. Maybe Zeus is the one true god. Millions of people used to think so. And if you were born in classical Greece, you would have to. Can you imagine trying to open your heart to Zeus? It just doesnt make sense with your genetics and experiences in life, just like Christianity doesnt fit with mine.

I get your Limbaugh analogy and I'm not trying to belittle your point, but saying to me (essentially) just keep trying, doesn't really help. I've gone to that well too many times and got nothing every time. Maybe you are right about discovering God being a journey, and when I am on my death bed, maybe I will change my mind and accept God. Seems unlikely. And seems unfair given that not everyone who dies gets the opportunity to experience that journey. Which is why its hard for me to belive that it can all be as simple as just finding god. I think over 90% of the US prison population are believers.

I dont see why life ending for a human is any different than life ending in a cat. Or a bug. It's just the end of a living organism. What happens to a cat when it dies? Have you ever thought about that?

HansMojo
12-22-2009, 06:44 AM
You are right, I have completely dismissed the idea of a Christian god. I have hardened my heart to him, as you have said. It just doesnt make sense to me any more than Greek mythology makes to you. Maybe Zeus is the one true god. Millions of people used to think so. And if you were born in classical Greece, you would have to. Can you imagine trying to open your heart to Zeus? It just doesnt make sense with your genetics and experiences in life, just like Christianity doesnt fit with mine.

I get your Limbaugh analogy and I'm not trying to belittle your point, but saying to me (essentially) just keep trying, doesn't really help. I've gone to that well too many times and got nothing every time. Maybe you are right about discovering God being a journey, and when I am on my death bed, maybe I will change my mind and accept God. Seems unlikely. And seems unfair given that not everyone who dies gets the opportunity to experience that journey. Which is why its hard for me to belive that it can all be as simple as just finding god. I think over 90% of the US prison population are believers.

I dont see why life ending for a human is any different than life ending in a cat. Or a bug. It's just the end of a living organism. What happens to a cat when it dies? Have you ever thought about that?
First, sorry to hear about your sister. I know it was a long time ago, but yeah, that's rough. I'm glad to hear that your parents are still together though and that your family is financially secure. Obviously that could never compensate your loss but I'm glad you have that anyway.

It is possible that there will come a time in your life when you will be more responsive/receptive to God. You may even come to a place that you are seeking for Him. That may be the time that He gives you the evidence you need to truly accept Him into your life. My hope for you is that if this time comes, that you don't just re-harden your heart and push Him away.

The parable of the Prodigal son really sums up nicely the basic act of returning to God and why that is really all it takes for us to be given salvation. We're His kids. We've run away from home to do stupid things. He stands ready to take us back but it is up to us to decide that this is what we want. He isn't going to round us up and drag us home. If my children ran away, committed terrible crimes or whatever, but then sincerely wanted to come home to me, I would take them back. They might have to answer for their crimes in a court of law (if they'd committed any), but this would not interfere with my relationship with them. With God, it is the relationship that matters. Since He is also the prosecutor, and the Judge...He can wipe away the sins and the punishment that might otherwise go along with them as well. Of course, we still may need to pay for our sins in an earthly court of law, but in the Heavenly court, they can be erased...if there is *true* repentance because God just wants us back and because Jesus already paid for our sins. We just need to want to be with Him. Otherwise, He lets us be.

90% may claim to be believers in prison, but I would suggest that at least some of those have ulterior motives. Only God knows for sure whether a person is trying to get an early release or whatever or if they have sincerely decided to return home.

Finally, I don't think life ending for a human is any different than it is for any other living organism (cat, bug, or otherwise). I don't believe we have a separate soul that leaves or something when we die. We die, and we're just dead bodies that decay and return to dust. The Breath of life returns to God, yes, but we simply die and await the Second Coming when the righteous dead will be resurrected (re-created by God...yes with memories and personalities etc. intact) and the righteous living will be perfected. Yes that is a different interpretation, but it is a Biblical interpretation IMHO.

Anyway, hope that clears up my position a little. Peace.

Dolphan7
12-22-2009, 07:47 PM
I know bad things happen to good people: believers and nonbelievers. I undersatnd that when bad things happen to believers they read the Bible and pray, and many times it helps comfort them. I get that it does this for you and thats why you believe. But it doesnt do any of that for me. I can't just try harder to understand god anymore than you can try harder to get right with the greek gods. I just cant, and neither could you, so the, well it works for me concept doesnt really help.

As far as God as a parental figure, I dont see how that could be true for an atheist. I have a mother and a father who provided for me and taught me life lessons. I've only read the Bible in passing throughout my life and so far everythings turned out pretty good. A lot better than most I'd say. And I didnt need to read the Bible for any of it.

As for my personal experience, my 12 year old sister died in a car crash 15 years ago. My mother was driving. God gave me absolutely no comfort through this time, and infact, attempting to understand him actually drove me further away from him. The result thus far is that my parents are still happilly married (which is unusual when a child dies), they adopted a child from Romania and we were awarded the most money for a negligence lawsuit in the history of Florida, so my family is financially secure for generations.

I've been very lucky with all the things that have happened to me in my life, even in tragedy, and the reason I mention all of this is to highlight why it would be impossible for me to just "try some more" It doesnt make sense to me to try, just like greek gods dont make sense for youI am sorry to hear about your sister. That is something no one should have to go through.

And I understand where you are coming from, I really do...because I used to be a staunch atheist. I could never imagine myself as a christian..in fact I used to make fun of christians all the time. So I understand how difficult it is to see yourself believing in something you are totally opposed to. But it happens. Maybe it will happen with you, I don't know. I hope so. All I can do is help and guide you where you need to go if you so desire.

aesop
12-25-2009, 11:35 AM
Yes I do believe GOD. But not always. Sometimes I feel there is no GOD, when I saw a poor human being suffers from whatever causes.What?

rev kev
01-04-2010, 08:57 PM
God's given YOU enough proof. Not every other person.

The fact of the matter, and where I have my biggest problem is that God created us, and put us on the planet for no other reason than to praise him or to be tormented forever.

What kind of a benevolent god does that?

Great argument Goon -

"What kind of God would put me here against my will - then silently watch as I get tormented here - by family, so-called friends teachers, authorities, Nation, foes, even torment myself as I attempt to cope without Him...?"

Excellent question that deserves a rational answer... I am not sure I have the best answer but I will chirp in that many church folk play the hell card like it is some "monopoly get out of jail card" - God's holiness is not satisfied by people going to hell as some if not most traditional Christians believe...

Isaiah 53:11 "Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satitisfied..., (the crucifixion) by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous and he shalll bear their iniquities" (ESV)

(remember to satisfy a cup you have to fill it comletely)

aesop
01-05-2010, 12:20 PM
(remember to satisfy a cup you have to fill it comletely)http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2010/01/SuperStock_1598R107012-1.jpg

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but these glasses look pretty satisfying/satisfied.

Phins_Dynasty
01-05-2010, 02:26 PM
Was reading the book of revelations recently and came across the part that states when Jesus returns he will take 144,000 to the Kingdom of heaven. These 144,000 will be all men "who have not defiled themselves with women." Now if I was a christian woman I would be pissed about this passage lol. So only virgin males will be allowed into Heaven on the return of christ? No disrespect, but what kinda crap is that?

Please explain your views on this christians...