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JCane
10-02-2009, 01:03 AM
...because you can't name 20 QB's better in the history of the game than Peyton Manning. You can't even name five.


Huh? You guys didn't face Joe Montana. Manning is about the 20th best ever QB, he's not even the best of his generation.

*edited* I typed 30th instead of 20th.

Go...

tylerdolphin
10-02-2009, 01:16 AM
This should be good.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 01:28 AM
No way he names 20 but I can see him getting to 5 pretty easy.

JCane
10-02-2009, 01:44 AM
No way he names 20 but I can see him getting to 5 pretty easy.

No way. This love affair with the past has gone too far. Montana, Bradshaw, Namath...those guys wouldn't cut it in today's NFL. The athletes today are bigger, better, stronger, and most importantly, they're smarter. They're more conditioned and better coached.

Yeah, I said it...they're better coached in today's NFL.

When it's all said and done, Peyton Manning is at the top of the list. Brady is up there. Montana, as great a QB as he was, played for one of the best coaches on one of the best teams in the history of the league. You take Joe Montana off of those teams and you still have Lott, Rice, Craig, etc.

Tony Dungy has long been a criticized coach in the NFL. He was ran out of town in Tampa. Without Peyton, that's a five win football team at best. The Colts have never been the decided favorite in the NFL like the 49ers were.

There is NO WAY anyone names 20 NFL QB's better than Peyton Manning and you'll struggle to name 5.

cafinfan408
10-02-2009, 07:00 AM
I agree try to name 5.
Think of what Manning does for his team.
Look at how many games they win year in and year out and you can not tell me that talent level on the team is anything but avg.

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 08:03 AM
...because you can't name 20 QB's better in the history of the game than Peyton Manning. You can't even name five.



Go...

I posted my top 20 already and I said peyton was around top 20. When I made my list he was 18th. This isn't all in order but keep in mind I evaluate QBs on more than just individual #s, a guy like peyton would be top 2-3 when it comes to #s and what he does in the reg season but I weigh big games and postseason performances heavier than the reg season and that is where peyton flops.

Montana
Unitas
Graham
Marino
Brady
Griese
Bradshaw
Elway
Dawson
Favre
Staubach
Baugh
Tarkenton
Starr
Layne
Van Brocklin
Aikman

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 08:08 AM
No way. This love affair with the past has gone too far. Montana, Bradshaw, Namath...those guys wouldn't cut it in today's NFL. The athletes today are bigger, better, stronger, and most importantly, they're smarter. They're more conditioned and better coached.

Yeah, I said it...they're better coached in today's NFL.

When it's all said and done, Peyton Manning is at the top of the list. Brady is up there. Montana, as great a QB as he was, played for one of the best coaches on one of the best teams in the history of the league. You take Joe Montana off of those teams and you still have Lott, Rice, Craig, etc.

Tony Dungy has long been a criticized coach in the NFL. He was ran out of town in Tampa. Without Peyton, that's a five win football team at best. The Colts have never been the decided favorite in the NFL like the 49ers were.

There is NO WAY anyone names 20 NFL QB's better than Peyton Manning and you'll struggle to name 5.

Montana didn't play that long ago and at the end of his career led KC to the AFC Title Game in 1993- KC hasn't won a playoff game since.

Have you noticed how big Drew Brees is? To say Montana, Namath and Bradshaw couldn't play today is silly.

you take Joe Montana off those teams and put in Steve Young(the 90s version of peyton- big reg season #s, shrivels in January) and SF wins 1 title in a decade.

Tony Dungy made a conf title game WITHOUT Peyton when he was in TB. Has Peyton ever made a conf title game w/o dungy? has Belichick ever made a conf title game w/o Brady?

I struggled to name 20 which is why I put him 18th but it was easy as could be to name 5. I am not mesmerized by great fantasy #s when guys can't get it done in January especially when peyton has had all the tools to succeed in january whereas a guy like marino didn't have all the tools.

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 08:09 AM
I agree try to name 5.
Think of what Manning does for his team.
Look at how many games they win year in and year out and you can not tell me that talent level on the team is anything but avg.

Yep and then look and see how many games he loses for Indy in postseason. The difference btw NE and Indy this decade has been at the QB position in January.

3Ply Stagliano
10-02-2009, 09:11 AM
Has Peyton ever made a conf title game w/ dungy?
Did you mean 'Has Peyton ever made a conf title game w/o Dungy'? Evidently he has done the former but not the latter.

JCane
10-02-2009, 12:20 PM
Goooooooooooooood Lord you have Troy Aikman above Manning lol. C'mon man. And first of all, eff some fantasy football. That's **** is for the nerds. And those fantasy nerds are the guys here defending Ted Ginn and his 11 catches for 108 yards or whatever he had. Catch the ball when it matters.

Tony Dungy made a title game without Peyton because he had one of the best defenses of all-time. He had Brad Johnson then. Similar situation with the Ravens and their premier defense. Trent Dilfer was the QB.

There is no way Montana, Bradshaw, etc., play at the level today as they did then. It's just the way it is. That's true for any sport. Babe Ruth would get destroyed in today's MLB. Things change so much. Diet and exercise matter so much more today. Conditioning. Terry Bradshaw wasn't conditioned lol. He was just a great football player. Manning is a machine. What that guy does is incredible. I can't remember a team that relied so much on one person. Without Manning, the Colts probably win three football games.

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 12:37 PM
Goooooooooooooood Lord you have Troy Aikman above Manning lol. C'mon man. And first of all, eff some fantasy football. That's **** is for the nerds. And those fantasy nerds are the guys here defending Ted Ginn and his 11 catches for 108 yards or whatever he had. Catch the ball when it matters.

Tony Dungy made a title game without Peyton because he had one of the best defenses of all-time. He had Brad Johnson then. Similar situation with the Ravens and their premier defense. Trent Dilfer was the QB.

There is no way Montana, Bradshaw, etc., play at the level today as they did then. It's just the way it is. That's true for any sport. Babe Ruth would get destroyed in today's MLB. Things change so much. Diet and exercise matter so much more today. Conditioning. Terry Bradshaw wasn't conditioned lol. He was just a great football player. Manning is a machine. What that guy does is incredible. I can't remember a team that relied so much on one person. Without Manning, the Colts probably win three football games.

I'd absolutely take Aikman over manning if I wanted to win, if I was playing for a fantasy Championship then Peyton gets the nod.

It doesn't matter how tony dungy made the title game w/o Manning, he made it and he helped resurrect an awful TB franchise.


It's not fair to say guys from the past can't play today. We compare players vs. the competition they played in their era. let's also not forget that the rules are skewed for the offenses today so the #s are much better. Peyton would not put up #s anywhere near he has now if he played 20-30 years ago.


Manning is a REGULAR SEASON machine. He folds when it matters most, I want my QB to step up when it matters most not shrivel.

JCane
10-02-2009, 01:39 PM
Didn't Manning and the Colts win a Super Bowl? As far as Aikman and the Cowboys are concerned, I'd take Michael Irvin over anyone from that team hands down. Manning picks defenses apart because he has the best head in the game. Aikman leaned on Irvin and Emmitt a lot; and for good reason. You can't fault the guy for that.

And it's absolutely fair to say that players then couldn't play now. People need to go on with this old school love affair. Yeah, it was a great time then but the level of athleticism and skill in today's game is absolutely unmatched. Terry Bradshaw could start today for the Dolphins lol....but no way does he step in front of Petyton Manning or hell even Mark Sanchez for that matter.

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 02:02 PM
Didn't Manning and the Colts win a Super Bowl? As far as Aikman and the Cowboys are concerned, I'd take Michael Irvin over anyone from that team hands down. Manning picks defenses apart because he has the best head in the game. Aikman leaned on Irvin and Emmitt a lot; and for good reason. You can't fault the guy for that.

And it's absolutely fair to say that players then couldn't play now. People need to go on with this old school love affair. Yeah, it was a great time then but the level of athleticism and skill in today's game is absolutely unmatched. Terry Bradshaw could start today for the Dolphins lol....but no way does he step in front of Petyton Manning or hell even Mark Sanchez for that matter.

He did in a postseason where he had one good half. he has also had a team capable of reaching 3-4 SBs and he has just ONE SB app.

Peyton has had weapons comparable to what Aikman had and Troy didn't choke every January like peyton has. He wasn't carried along for a ride for any of their SB wins unlike Peyton in 2006.

Who cares if older players cannot play today? We judge players aginst the players they played against and a guy like Joe Montana was much better against his competition than peyton Manning has been against his when it matters most.

AGAIN, the rules are skewed in favor of the offenses now as well AND Peyton has played more than half his games in a dome w/ incredible talent to throw the football too- does that not count for anything?

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 03:00 PM
Somehow I totally disagree with both of you.

JCane- Your out of your mind if you don't think the greats of the past wouldn't be able to start today. They wouldn't be the elite QB's they were then but most of them would still be very productive in todays NFL. "Babe Ruth would get destroyed today"???? Are you insane? Hitting a baseball is the same now as it was then nothings changed. As far as conditioning, tell that to Prince Fielder who somehow seems to be one of the best even with all that fat. As far as you knocking Dungy whats that all about, do you remember what the Bucs were before he got there? And your telling me the Colts didn't get much better when he replaced Jim Mora...really? Don't get me wrong Manning is a great QB and an obvious 1st ballot HOFer but to crown him the best ever or even the best of this generation is a stretch. If he had ANY ability to run at all you may have a point. He goes into that Marino greatest pocket passer argument because of this fact.

nyjunc- I'll make yours short and sweet. I just think some of the guys you put ahead of him are silly. Griese, Dawson, Baugh, Layne, Van Brocklin come on man. These are all great QB's but please. There are others on your list I wouldn't put ahead of Manning but these are the ones that are just mind boggling bad choices.

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 03:08 PM
Somehow I totally disagree with both of you.

JCane- Your out of your mind if you don't think the greats of the past wouldn't be able to start today. They wouldn't be the elite QB's they were then but most of them would still be very productive in todays NFL. "Babe Ruth would get destroyed today"???? Are you insane? Hitting a baseball is the same now as it was then nothings changed. As far as conditioning, tell that to Prince Fielder who somehow seems to be one of the best even with all that fat. As far as you knocking Dungy whats that all about, do you remember what the Bucs were before he got there? And your telling me the Colts didn't get much better when he replaced Jim Mora...really? Don't get me wrong Manning is a great QB and an obvious 1st ballot HOFer but to crown him the best ever or even the best of this generation is a stretch. If he had ANY ability to run at all you may have a point. He goes into that Marino greatest pocket passer argument because of this fact.

nyjunc- I'll make yours short and sweet. I just think some of the guys you put ahead of him are silly. Griese, Dawson, Baugh, Layne, Van Brocklin come on man. These are all great QB's but please. There are others on your list I wouldn't put ahead of Manning but these are the ones that are just mind boggling bad choices.


Make a case for Manning over those guys. I'm not just talking meaningless reg season fantasy #s. if you had to win a big game in January you'd take manning over those other QBs? he's had the best talent in the game to work w/ yet in playoff losses he has led his high powered O's to an astounding 13.6 PPG.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 03:10 PM
By the way JCane all though Manning did get a ring he can thank HIS defense because he never would have made it into that game without them. He played awful in the playoffs that year and they bailed him out. In fact his post season stats his entire career haver been suspect. An 85.0 QB rating in the playoffs isn't really best of all time kind of stuff. Neither is 22 tds with 17 ints. He also had a rep for chocking big time in collage, it's why Leaf was picked before him. Here are his post season career stats.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00_playoffs.htm

Pretty pedestrian if you ask me.

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 03:42 PM
By the way JCane all though Manning did get a ring he can thank HIS defense because he never would have made it into that game without them. He played awful in the playoffs that year and they bailed him out. In fact his post season stats his entire career haver been suspect. An 85.0 QB rating in the playoffs isn't really best of all time kind of stuff. Neither is 22 tds with 17 ints. He also had a rep for chocking big time in collage, it's why Leaf was picked before him. Here are his post season career stats.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00_playoffs.htm

Pretty pedestrian if you ask me.

I mostly agree but Peyton was picked before leaf. Peyton went 1 and leaf 2

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 03:53 PM
Make a case for Manning over those guys. I'm not just talking meaningless reg season fantasy #s. if you had to win a big game in January you'd take manning over those other QBs? he's had the best talent in the game to work w/ yet in playoff losses he has led his high powered O's to an astounding 13.6 PPG.

Well your kind of morphing from the origanal question in order to serve your argument. One of my biggest complants of Manning is his big game play. Thats not the big picutre question here though. Its about taking everything into account. With that said I'll play along.

Griese IMHO is the closest so I'll debate in more detail.

Griese- This one is easy because the Dolphins were a run it down your throat team in the 70's. Griese was a game manager, a more talented Trent Dilfer if you will. Point in case Earl Morrall stepped in right in the middle of their Super Bowl runs and the team didn't miss a beat.

Manning- TD's 340/ INT's 167/ QB rate 95.1

Dawson- TD's 239/ INT's 183/ QB rate 82.6

Baugh- TD's 187/ INT's 203/ QB rate 72.2

Layne- TD's 196/ INT's 243/ QB rate 63.4

Van Brocklin TD's 173/ INT's 178/ QB rate 75.1

Manning has more TD's with less INT's and higher QB rating then all these guys. Hell besides Dawson they all threw more picks then TD's.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 03:58 PM
I mostly agree but Peyton was picked before leaf. Peyton went 1 and leaf 2

Your 100% right thank you. I was thinking it was the reason there was so much debate and got ahead of myself. As Roger Clemens would say "I mis- remembered"

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 04:15 PM
Well your kind of morphing from the origanal question in order to serve your argument. One of my biggest complants of Manning is his big game play. Thats not the big picutre question here though. Its about taking everything into account. With that said I'll play along.

Griese IMHO is the closest so I'll debate in more detail.

Griese- This one is easy because the Dolphins were a run it down your throat team in the 70's. Griese was a game manager, a more talented Trent Dilfer if you will. Point in case Earl Morrall stepped in right in the middle of their Super Bowl runs and the team didn't miss a beat.

Manning- TD's 340/ INT's 167/ QB rate 95.1

Dawson- TD's 239/ INT's 183/ QB rate 82.6

Baugh- TD's 187/ INT's 203/ QB rate 72.2

Layne- TD's 196/ INT's 243/ QB rate 63.4

Van Brocklin TD's 173/ INT's 178/ QB rate 75.1

Manning has more TD's with less INT's and higher QB rating then all these guys. Hell besides Dawson they all threw more picks then TD's.

You are showing me reg season stats, there's nop contest w/ just about any QB when it comes to reg season stats but there's alot more to being a great QB than just the #s and he comes up small in january and I weight January more heavily than reg season #s.

as far as Griese, remember the '72 team was playing alot of close games and they played an incredibly easy sched. Many have argued, I do too, that the '73 team was better despite 2 losses.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 04:28 PM
You are showing me reg season stats, there's nop contest w/ just about any QB when it comes to reg season stats but there's alot more to being a great QB than just the #s and he comes up small in january and I weight January more heavily than reg season #s.

as far as Griese, remember the '72 team was playing alot of close games and they played an incredibly easy sched. Many have argued, I do too, that the '73 team was better despite 2 losses.

Manning's post season numbers are why this is even a debate. With that said his reg season numbers along with the fact that he did win along with being the MVP of a Super Bowl puts him ahead of these guys.

Now if you want to have a debate on who the greatest post season QB's of all time are that would be different and the list would surprise a lot of people.

I agree that the '73 team was better then the '72 team in fact the '71 team was pretty good as well

nyjunc
10-02-2009, 04:31 PM
Manning's post season numbers are why this is even a debate. With that said his reg season numbers along with the fact that he did win along with being the MVP of a Super Bowl puts him ahead of these guys.

I agree that the '73 team was better then the '72 team in fact the '71 team was pretty good as well

No question, if peyton was anywhere near as good in postseason as the reg season I'd be talking about greatest of all time but unfortunately for him he has been pretty average in postseason while other QBs who weren't as good in the reg season have been much better which is why i push them past him.

Let's be honest, he had no business winning that SB MVP. he didn't do much in that game, the D was great and the ground game carried the O. he got the MVP b/c his name is peyton Manning.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 04:48 PM
No question, if peyton was anywhere near as good in postseason as the reg season I'd be talking about greatest of all time but unfortunately for him he has been pretty average in postseason while other QBs who weren't as good in the reg season have been much better which is why i push them past him.

Let's be honest, he had no business winning that SB MVP. he didn't do much in that game, the D was great and the ground game carried the O. he got the MVP b/c his name is peyton Manning.

Thats hard to argue with. As I already stated he never would have gotten to that Bowl if his 'D' didn't step up. His numbers in the playoffs that year were awful!

I agree with you that he is overrated overall but I just wouldn't put the guys I highlighted above him. He isn't as high on the list as most people put him though.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 04:52 PM
nyjunc just a quick side question for you thats off topic.
Whats your honest prediction for the Jets/Saints game? Are the 2 DB's being out for you guys gonna be the difference in the game?

PhinPhan910
10-02-2009, 05:33 PM
Montana (Fair enough)

Unitas (Your saying how peyton manning only has 1 superbowl? Correct me if im mistaken, but doesn't he also have just 1?, and his stats compared to peyton manning's are like comparing Andrew Walter and Drew Brees.)

Graham (He didn't really lead his team, he had arguably the best HB ever in Jim Brown also, and just because he's a Hofer doesn't make him suddenly amazing.)

Marino (agree)

Brady (Disagree, but its pretty close.)

Griese (I'm a Dolphins fan, but even I wouldn't do this, he has only 2 super bowl wins and during the undefeated season he missed all games except the super bowl.)

Bradshaw (Immensly overrated, had probably the best D ever, a HOF HB, and 2 HOF wr's)

Elway (Thats fair)

Dawson (No, just no.)

Favre (I live Favre alot, but he leads the league All-time in interceptions)

Staubach (Its close, but nope)

Baugh (Disagree)

Tarkenton (All he did was run around in the pocket, he never won a SB.)

Starr (He also had a great team around him also.)

Layne (Definetly not)

Van Brocklin (Nope)

Aikman (Emmitt Smith, Micheal Irvin, Deion Sanders etc.)



That leaves peyton at #5 if you want to count Brady.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 06:36 PM
PhinPhan10; Dorsett played with Aikman? I'm sure you meant Smith, you know the leading rusher in NFL history. Don't forget one of the best O-lines in history plus Jay Novacek wasn't to shabby as well.

Dolfan81
10-02-2009, 07:26 PM
phinphan10, your talking about what aikman had, well dont forget about harrison, wayne, faulk, edge.

TheDon74
10-02-2009, 07:55 PM
phinphan10, your talking about what aikman had, well dont forget about harrison, wayne, faulk, edge.

Dallas Clark is pretty good last time I checked

gofins
10-03-2009, 01:14 AM
I posted my top 20 already and I said peyton was around top 20. When I made my list he was 18th. This isn't all in order but keep in mind I evaluate QBs on more than just individual #s, a guy like peyton would be top 2-3 when it comes to #s and what he does in the reg season but I weigh big games and postseason performances heavier than the reg season and that is where peyton flops.

Montana
Unitas
Graham
Marino
Brady
Griese
Bradshaw
Elway
Dawson
Favre
Staubach
Baugh
Tarkenton
Starr
Layne
Van Brocklin
Aikman
Well, that's a good list.you def have an argument for it. The only thing I disagree with is Marino. Shouldn't he be #1? LOL!!!!!! Thanks for the love though!

nyjunc
10-03-2009, 06:54 AM
nyjunc just a quick side question for you thats off topic.
Whats your honest prediction for the Jets/Saints game? Are the 2 DB's being out for you guys gonna be the difference in the game?

I don't have a great read on this game, the 2 DBs being out does make this much more difficult. I also expect Sanchez to look like a rookie one of these weeks. I think if we can get the ground game going a bit we'll have a great chance. If this game was at home I slightly favor us but I favor NO and I think they'll win. I hope I'm wrong.


That leaves peyton at #5 if you want to count Brady.

Don't compare #sb from different eras, the game was very different and you are right Unitas has just ONE Super Bowl but he had 2 NFL Championships before the SB existed so he has 3 Championships and 5 Championship appearances- that's better than 1 SB and 1 SB app, right?

Otto Graham never played w/ Jim Borwn, his career ended in '55, Brown was a rookie in '57. otto played 6 years in the NFL(won 4 titles in the AAFC before Cle joined the NFL) and was in the Championship Game all 6 years winning 3 of them. Jim Brown won 1 Championship w/ Cle and it's the only Championship Cle has w/o Otto.

The legendary coach Paul Brown coached 25 years, he won 7 Championships from 1946-1955(4 AAFC, 3 NFL) w/ Otto Graham reaching the Championship game EVERY year, his other 15 years coaching he never won another Championship and only reached 2 title games.

Again, the '72 dolphins faced an incredibly easy sched, won alot of close games including their 3 playoff games by a total of 17 pts. Was Griese a better pure passer? no way but if I had to win a game I'd want griese ahead of peyton.

Bradshaw did have a great D but he still had to make plays and he did that. Again, not a better pure passer but if I needed to win a big game I'm taking terry.

I think Favre and Peyton are very close but Brett has more SB apps and more conf title game apps plus he never had a losing record, he leaves GB and they have a losing record the first year. I think favre is also overrated but I'd rank him ahead of peyton.

Dawson w/o question. The man won 3 AFL Titles and a SB Title(2 of the AFL Titles were like an AFC title today). Since Dawson retired the Chiefs have 3 playoff wins, that's it and 2 of those playoff wins came when Joe Montana led them to the AFC Title Game in 1993.

Staubach was a starter for basically 8 years, he guided Dallas to 7 playoff apps, 2 SB wins and 4 SB apps. Dallas wouldn't see the SB again until 1992.

Baugh led Wash to 5 title games and won 2 of them. Wash wouldn't win another SB until 1982. The game was VERY different for a QB back then but the primary job was still to win.

Tarkenton never won a SB but he reached 3 of them, that's like saying had Elway retired pre-1997 he just ran around and never won a SB. How many SBs has Minnesota been to since? He also QB'd the Giants for 5 years and the Giants were an awful team in those days yet he had a 33-36 record. from
1964-1980 the Giants didn't reach the playoffs, in Tarkenton's 5 years(67-71) they were 33-36(48%) from 1964-66,72-80 the Giants record was 51-110-4(32%)

Bart Starr is incredibly underrated, all Championship QBs have great talent around them- some better than others. peyton has had Championship caliber talent around him most of the last decade. He won 5 Championships(inclduing 2 SBs) and reached 6 title games. he threw 15 TDs and 3 INTs in 10 postseason games. Peyton has thrown 3 INTs in a single game once and FOUR INTs in a single game once.

In 8 fulls years as the Lions starter Bobby Layne reached 4 Championship games and won 3 of them. The Lions are still sreaching for their first Championship since Bobby Layne.

Norm Van Brocklin was LAs starting QB for 8 seasons, he reached 4 Championship games and won 1. The Rams wouldn't win again until 1999. He then left for Philly and won a Championship which is the last title the Eagles ever won and he was the only QB to beat a Vince Lombardi coached team and Bart Starr led team in a Championship game.

Aikman had great weapons just as Peyton has had great weapons. Marvin harrison is a future HOFer just like irvin, he hasn't had any Emmitts(well he did have Faulk but that was only for his rookie year) but he's had damn good RBs, he's had TEs like Dallas Clark, Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard and he's had great OLs.


There's no comparison btw Brady and peyton. You can have Peyton in your top 5, no one is stopping you. I judge QBs very differently, I don't just use #s to judge QBs.

Vaark
10-03-2009, 11:10 AM
I don't have a great read on this game, the 2 DBs being out does make this much more difficult. I also expect Sanchez to look like a rookie one of these weeks. I think if we can get the ground game going a bit we'll have a great chance. If this game was at home I slightly favor us but I favor NO and I think they'll win. I hope I'm wrong.



Don't compare #sb from different eras, the game was very different and you are right Unitas has just ONE Super Bowl but he had 2 NFL Championships before the SB existed so he has 3 Championships and 5 Championship appearances- that's better than 1 SB and 1 SB app, right?

Otto Graham never played w/ Jim Borwn, his career ended in '55, Brown was a rookie in '57. otto played 6 years in the NFL(won 4 titles in the AAFC before Cle joined the NFL) and was in the Championship Game all 6 years winning 3 of them. Jim Brown won 1 Championship w/ Cle and it's the only Championship Cle has w/o Otto.

The legendary coach Paul Brown coached 25 years, he won 7 Championships from 1946-1955(4 AAFC, 3 NFL) w/ Otto Graham reaching the Championship game EVERY year, his other 15 years coaching he never won another Championship and only reached 2 title games.

Again, the '72 dolphins faced an incredibly easy sched, won alot of close games including their 3 playoff games by a total of 17 pts. Was Griese a better pure passer? no way but if I had to win a game I'd want griese ahead of peyton.

Bradshaw did have a great D but he still had to make plays and he did that. Again, not a better pure passer but if I needed to win a big game I'm taking terry.

I think Favre and Peyton are very close but Brett has more SB apps and more conf title game apps plus he never had a losing record, he leaves GB and they have a losing record the first year. I think favre is also overrated but I'd rank him ahead of peyton.

Dawson w/o question. The man won 3 AFL Titles and a SB Title(2 of the AFL Titles were like an AFC title today). Since Dawson retired the Chiefs have 3 playoff wins, that's it and 2 of those playoff wins came when Joe Montana led them to the AFC Title Game in 1993.

Staubach was a starter for basically 8 years, he guided Dallas to 7 playoff apps, 2 SB wins and 4 SB apps. Dallas wouldn't see the SB again until 1992.

Baugh led Wash to 5 title games and won 2 of them. Wash wouldn't win another SB until 1982. The game was VERY different for a QB back then but the primary job was still to win.

Tarkenton never won a SB but he reached 3 of them, that's like saying had Elway retired pre-1997 he just ran around and never won a SB. How many SBs has Minnesota been to since? He also QB'd the Giants for 5 years and the Giants were an awful team in those days yet he had a 33-36 record. from
1964-1980 the Giants didn't reach the playoffs, in Tarkenton's 5 years(67-71) they were 33-36(48%) from 1964-66,72-80 the Giants record was 51-110-4(32%)

Bart Starr is incredibly underrated, all Championship QBs have great talent around them- some better than others. peyton has had Championship caliber talent around him most of the last decade. He won 5 Championships(inclduing 2 SBs) and reached 6 title games. he threw 15 TDs and 3 INTs in 10 postseason games. Peyton has thrown 3 INTs in a single game once and FOUR INTs in a single game once.

In 8 fulls years as the Lions starter Bobby Layne reached 4 Championship games and won 3 of them. The Lions are still sreaching for their first Championship since Bobby Layne.

Norm Van Brocklin was LAs starting QB for 8 seasons, he reached 4 Championship games and won 1. The Rams wouldn't win again until 1999. He then left for Philly and won a Championship which is the last title the Eagles ever won and he was the only QB to beat a Vince Lombardi coached team and Bart Starr led team in a Championship game.

Aikman had great weapons just as Peyton has had great weapons. Marvin harrison is a future HOFer just like irvin, he hasn't had any Emmitts(well he did have Faulk but that was only for his rookie year) but he's had damn good RBs, he's had TEs like Dallas Clark, Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard and he's had great OLs.


There's no comparison btw Brady and peyton. You can have Peyton in your top 5, no one is stopping you. I judge QBs very differently, I don't just use #s to judge QBs.

This is one of the few times I agree with you but I think you're omitting someone who should be right up there with Tarkenton: The Hurricane's own Jim Kelly who made it to 1 more SB than him, holds a bunch of records and all sorts of All Pro and yardage meritorious distinctions.

JCane
10-03-2009, 11:35 AM
You guys are something else lol. No way in hell Babe Ruth comes back today. He'd get trashed in AAA ball. Hitting a baseball hasn't changed much lol? Really? Yeah because the slider, split-finger fastball, and 12/6 breaking balls were prominent in his day. Not to mention middle relievers, specialty relievers, and closers present in the game today. Babe Ruth wouldn't stand a chance. No way he could play in the outfield today. He'd have to be moved to 1B or serve as a DH. Prince Fielder plays at 1B for that very reason. Yeah, he's chunky in the midsection but he has a killer diet that he adheres to. Babe Ruth at hot dogs inbetween innings. Dude wasn't human lol.

And you guys are putting too much emphasis on winning Super Bowls. Yeah, I know that sounds crazy because that's the idea but QB's don't win Super Bowls-teams do. Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson won Super Bowls. Big whoop. Ability to run the ball? Come on. What coach wants their QB running the football. Even coaches in Atlanta didn't want Vick running the football. That garbage is for college football. You may have to scramble and run from time to time, but you can't knock a QB who doesn't run well. Joe Montana couldn't run. But he's considered the greatest QB of all-time by many? When Manning's career is over, he'll be one of the best QB's to ever play the game. And I'm not knocking Tony Dungy. He's a good coach but he's not a GREAT coach. He's a hell of a motivator and leader, but he's a B+ coach at best.

tylerdolphin
10-03-2009, 07:02 PM
Whenever the whole super bowl/championship argument comes up in a player debate, I always ask "Is Eli Manning a better QB because David Tyree made that catch"? Of course he isnt. If Asante Samuel doesnt drop a INT...same thing. If Tyree doesnt hold on, or if Samuel picks off that pass, Eli is STILL has the same amount of talent. He is no better or worse a QB becuase those events happened

JCane
10-04-2009, 02:43 AM
I'd put Eli as the fourth best QB in the league right now behind Peyton, Brady and Big Ben.

nyjunc
10-04-2009, 07:54 AM
This is one of the few times I agree with you but I think you're omitting someone who should be right up there with Tarkenton: The Hurricane's own Jim Kelly who made it to 1 more SB than him, holds a bunch of records and all sorts of All Pro and yardage meritorious distinctions.


I go back and forth on kelly. I think he's right there for top 20 but a SB win by peyton probably pushed him ahead although 4 straight SG apps is an incredible accomplishment.


You guys are something else lol. No way in hell Babe Ruth comes back today. He'd get trashed in AAA ball. Hitting a baseball hasn't changed much lol? Really? Yeah because the slider, split-finger fastball, and 12/6 breaking balls were prominent in his day. Not to mention middle relievers, specialty relievers, and closers present in the game today. Babe Ruth wouldn't stand a chance. No way he could play in the outfield today. He'd have to be moved to 1B or serve as a DH. Prince Fielder plays at 1B for that very reason. Yeah, he's chunky in the midsection but he has a killer diet that he adheres to. Babe Ruth at hot dogs inbetween innings. Dude wasn't human lol.

And you guys are putting too much emphasis on winning Super Bowls. Yeah, I know that sounds crazy because that's the idea but QB's don't win Super Bowls-teams do. Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson won Super Bowls. Big whoop. Ability to run the ball? Come on. What coach wants their QB running the football. Even coaches in Atlanta didn't want Vick running the football. That garbage is for college football. You may have to scramble and run from time to time, but you can't knock a QB who doesn't run well. Joe Montana couldn't run. But he's considered the greatest QB of all-time by many? When Manning's career is over, he'll be one of the best QB's to ever play the game. And I'm not knocking Tony Dungy. He's a good coach but he's not a GREAT coach. He's a hell of a motivator and leader, but he's a B+ coach at best.

So you don't think players from previous eras would change their training? That's silly, as times change, treatments change, training techniques change the athletes adjust.


It's not just winning SBs, it's also making them. I give marino a pass b/c he didn't have many SB caliber teams around him in his career and I feel his teams oveerachieved b/c of him but Peyton has had SB caliber talent around him most of his career and he has just one SB app to show for it and he just comes up small too many times in January preventing Indy from advancing.


Whenever the whole super bowl/championship argument comes up in a player debate, I always ask "Is Eli Manning a better QB because David Tyree made that catch"? Of course he isnt. If Asante Samuel doesnt drop a INT...same thing. If Tyree doesnt hold on, or if Samuel picks off that pass, Eli is STILL has the same amount of talent. He is no better or worse a QB becuase those events happened

Is Eli better b/c of that catch? no but he's better b/c of the great postseason he had which was better than any that Peyton ever had.

We can play the if game all game long. If Reche Caldwell doesn't drop that TD against Indy in the title game then peyton likely has zero SB apps and wins.


I'd put Eli as the fourth best QB in the league right now behind Peyton, Brady and Big Ben.

Peyton is playing great so far this year but he always does in the reg season. We have to wait to evaluate him until January- same thing w/ Brees.

I do think Eli is underrated, he's not in the Brady-Ben category but he's alot better than most fans give him credit for.

tylerdolphin
10-05-2009, 12:49 AM
Is Eli better b/c of that catch? no but he's better b/c of the great postseason he had which was better than any that Peyton ever had.

We can play the if game all game long. If Reche Caldwell doesn't drop that TD against Indy in the title game then peyton likely has zero SB apps and wins.
What I mean is...if Eli had not won that Super Bowl, it would have nothing to do with him. So how can you rate QBs just off championships when so many little random things can stop it from happening. David Tyree and his amazing catch have nothing to do with how good Eli Manning is. He is the same QB if Tyree drops it...just minus a ring. So how can you rate QBs off championships

nyjunc
10-05-2009, 05:47 AM
What I mean is...if Eli had not won that Super Bowl, it would have nothing to do with him. So how can you rate QBs just off championships when so many little random things can stop it from happening. David Tyree and his amazing catch have nothing to do with how good Eli Manning is. He is the same QB if Tyree drops it...just minus a ring. So how can you rate QBs off championships

I don't rate QBs JUST off championships, there are alot of factors invovle when I rate QBs. How do we know they don't wind up scoring if Tyree drops the ball? there was also the great escape by Manning to get rid of the ball so he deserves credit too.

Postseason is just a part, I feel peyton has had the tolls to reachy multiple SBs and he hasn't and the biggest reason why has been Peyton's play come January.

Possum
10-05-2009, 05:49 AM
I'd put Eli as the fourth best QB in the league right now behind Peyton, Brady and Big Ben.
what no love for the silver fox, brett farve the gunslinger?:lol: