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View Full Version : What is the big deal about Evolution V.S Religion? + New evidence of our orgins



xMChemicalRx
10-02-2009, 05:48 PM
I just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I mean okay sure in the bible/torah/quran it states that the world was created in 6 or 7 days whatever it is, but why is it take in such a literal sense?

I am a muslim and I have a girlfriend who is catholic. We both believe that religion was used as a social tool in its conception so it would only make sense that some elements in the religions are man-made. We do believe in a God, but we are not willing to believe everything that our religion states. Does that make us less religious? Maybe. Do we care? Nope. The important thing is to just believe in God. It would be foolish to take the holy book in all three major religions as completely God's words.

Why is it not possible to believe in religion and evolution? I will point out that by not believing in evolution but by believing that the Sun is the center of the universe then you are acting as a hypocrite.

Yes, you read that write. In the Bible it stated that the earth was the center of the universe. The Aristotelian Worldview of the earth and Christen doctrine were shattered by the advance of science-most presumably by Copernicus.

You have to understand that at the time It was a MAJOR issue among scientist and religious scholars. It was without question as significant as the evolution debate (if not more!). For God sakes religious scholars, in an attempt to debunk Copernicus, came up with their own theories of a Earth centered universe (*we are obviously talking about our galaxy. They did not have an understanding of a universe outside of our galaxy)

Ptolemy, the most notable of them, had created a system in where the Earth was the center of the universe. This was done to satisfy Christian belief. *Please don't think I am just criticizing the Christian belief. I just have no idea if the quran or torah stated that the Earth was the center of the universe (frankly it won't surprise me)

I just don't understand why this is a major topic that is debated. Also the following link is of new evidence that suggest that humans did not evolve from apes but rather that apes and humans co-evolved from a single ancestor. Pretty interesting, huh?

**I tried looking for the link but I am short on time. If anyone finds it please post it! I read it on yahoo the day before yesterday. It was on the homepage. If I find it I will post it. Thanks!

aesop
10-03-2009, 02:04 PM
You can believe whatever you'd like. The Bible and Evolution do not mix. One has to be wrong if you take everything in the Bible literally.

HansMojo
10-03-2009, 03:52 PM
I just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I mean okay sure in the bible/torah/quran it states that the world was created in 6 or 7 days whatever it is, but why is it take in such a literal sense?

I am a muslim and I have a girlfriend who is catholic. We both believe that religion was used as a social tool in its conception so it would only make sense that some elements in the religions are man-made. We do believe in a God, but we are not willing to believe everything that our religion states. Does that make us less religious? Maybe. Do we care? Nope. The important thing is to just believe in God. It would be foolish to take the holy book in all three major religions as completely God's words.

Why is it not possible to believe in religion and evolution? I will point out that by not believing in evolution but by believing that the Sun is the center of the universe then you are acting as a hypocrite.

Yes, you read that write. In the Bible it stated that the earth was the center of the universe. The Aristotelian Worldview of the earth and Christen doctrine were shattered by the advance of science-most presumably by Copernicus.

You have to understand that at the time It was a MAJOR issue among scientist and religious scholars. It was without question as significant as the evolution debate (if not more!). For God sakes religious scholars, in an attempt to debunk Copernicus, came up with their own theories of a Earth centered universe (*we are obviously talking about our galaxy. They did not have an understanding of a universe outside of our galaxy)

Ptolemy, the most notable of them, had created a system in where the Earth was the center of the universe. This was done to satisfy Christian belief. *Please don't think I am just criticizing the Christian belief. I just have no idea if the quran or torah stated that the Earth was the center of the universe (frankly it won't surprise me)

I just don't understand why this is a major topic that is debated. Also the following link is of new evidence that suggest that humans did not evolve from apes but rather that apes and humans co-evolved from a single ancestor. Pretty interesting, huh?

**I tried looking for the link but I am short on time. If anyone finds it please post it! I read it on yahoo the day before yesterday. It was on the homepage. If I find it I will post it. Thanks!
You know, I could be wrong but I don't think that the Bible teaches that the sun is located at the center of the universe. But IMHO, the Son is the center of the universe and also IMHO, our little blue planet is currently the center of His attention.

People believe and teach all kinds of things regarding what the Bible says/teaches or doesn't say/teach. This has always been the case and always will be. For me, I like to investigate the matter for myself and in the process I think I've become a better person. I think this is a worthy endeavor for everyone, but that's JMHO.

xMChemicalRx
10-05-2009, 04:29 PM
You can believe whatever you'd like. The Bible and Evolution do not mix. One has to be wrong if you take everything in the Bible literally.

But that's just the thing...Believing that the sun is the center of our galaxy and and the bible don't mix either...

My question is how can you believe that the sun is in the center of the galaxy but still belive in the bible (as something that is completely written by God?)

To me that just proves that not everything that was written in the holy books are completely written by God. Some parts just have to be man-made. I mean you have some ridiculous things that are written in the Torah/Quran/Bible...

I don't have time to list them all here are some...



"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet." (1 Timothy 2:12)
"Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and *****." (1 Samuel 15:3)
"You shall not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:18)
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." (Psalm 137:9)
"When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go. Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning. When her husband rose that day and opened the door of the house to start out again on his journey, there lay the woman, his concubine, at the entrance of the house with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, 'Come, let us go'; but there was no answer. So the man placed her on an *** and started out again for home." (Judges 19:25-28)
"And the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." (Romans 1:27)
"Jephthah made a vow to the Lord. 'If you deliver the Ammonites into my power,' he said, 'whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites shall belong to the Lord. I shall offer him up as a holocaust.' ... When Jephthah returned to his house in Mizpah, it was his daughter who came forth, playing the tambourines and dancing. She was an only child: he had neither son nor daughter besides her. When he saw her, he rent his garments and said, 'Alas, daughter, you have struck me down and brought calamity upon me. For I have made a vow to the Lord and I cannot retract'." (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
"Then God said: 'Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you'."(Genesis 22:2)
"Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:22)
"Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)

"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

From the bible. I mean in religion you have to just kind of have to omit some parts.

Deuteronomy 23:2
One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord (((((((((((DAMN))))))))))))))

I mean those are just some. Torah, Buddhism, Islam EVERY religion has it's ugly side.

COME ON!! You just cannot sit here and tell me that these are from GOD no fricken way. Some elements are man-made, once we accept that then we as a society can move past the restrictions and boundaries that hold us down.

xMChemicalRx
10-05-2009, 04:52 PM
You know, I could be wrong but I don't think that the Bible teaches that the sun is located at the center of the universe. But IMHO, the Son is the center of the universe and also IMHO, our little blue planet is currently the center of His attention.

People believe and teach all kinds of things regarding what the Bible says/teaches or doesn't say/teach. This has always been the case and always will be. For me, I like to investigate the matter for myself and in the process I think I've become a better person. I think this is a worthy endeavor for everyone, but that's JMHO.

No, the bible does state that the sun revolves around the earth...

Here is what the Quran says about the earth being flat...

Sura Al-Kahf (18:47)

And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

Sura Taha (20:53)

Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

Sura Az-Zukhruf (43:10)

Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way.

Sura Az-Zukhruf (43:38)

Till, when (such a one) comes to Us, he says [to his Qarin (Satan / devil companion)] "Would that between me and you were the distance of the two easts (or the east and west)" a worst (type of) companion (indeed)!

Sura An-Naba (78:6)

Have We not made the earth as a bed,

Sura An-Naziat (79:30)

And after that He spread the earth;



These verses would only be applicable to a flat earth belief

Sura An-Naml (27:61)

Is not He (better than your gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water).Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but most of them know not.

Sura Al-Kahf (18:86)

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

Sura Al-Kahf (18:90)

Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We (All?h) had provided no shelter against the sun.

Sura Yasin (36:38)

And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

Sura Yasin (36:40)

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.

HansMojo
10-10-2009, 03:14 PM
No, the bible does state that the sun revolves around the earth...


Now I'm confused because you are changing the subject. I was addressing your statement that "the Bible says that the sun is the center of the universe", not that the sun revolves around the earth...but you know, that isn't in there either. The texts that people use to support this interpretation are really no different than our modern use of the word sunset or sundown:

sun⋅set

 http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/10/speaker-1.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/S11/S1118200) /ˈsʌnˌsɛt/ http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2010/03/dictionary_questionbutton_default-1.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhn-set] –noun 1. the setting or descent of the sun below the horizon in the evening.
sun⋅rise

 http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/10/speaker-1.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/S11/S1117500) /ˈsʌnˌraɪz/ http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2010/03/dictionary_questionbutton_default-1.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhn-rahyz] http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2010/03/dictionary_questionbutton_default-1.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA–noun 1. the rise or ascent of the sun above the horizon in the morning.

The sun isn't itself moving above or below the horizon. Our horizon is what is moving because it is the earth that is moving. So do we toss out the dictionary since it obviously isn't accurately describing what we know to be happening? Of course not. We know it is basing the definition of a common word on perspective, but even children know that it is the earth's rotation that gives us our sunsets and sunrises.

Anyway, please provide the text where you find the Bible stating that the sun is the center of the Universe. I can't seem to find it. :thanks:

Dolphan7
10-12-2009, 06:13 PM
I just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I mean okay sure in the bible/torah/quran it states that the world was created in 6 or 7 days whatever it is, but why is it take in such a literal sense?

Why is it not possible to believe in religion and evolution?We take the biblical account of creation week as literal because we have no indication that it is anything other than literal. All evidence points to a literal interpretation. Typically the ones who think it isn't literal are Theistic evolutionists. Why do they take this approach? Because in order to compromise the two belief systems together and make them harmonious, they have to take creation week as a metaphor or an allegory or any literary device that isn't literal.

Theistic evolutionists do believe in God and evolution. But to most Christians, they are mutually exclusive because evolution takes any workings of God and throws it out the window and attempts to explain our origins by completely natural causes.




I will point out that by not believing in evolution but by believing that the Sun is the center of the universe then you are acting as a hypocrite.

Yes, you read that write. In the Bible it stated that the earth was the center of the universe. The Aristotelian Worldview of the earth and Christen doctrine were shattered by the advance of science-most presumably by Copernicus.Well ....which is it? Please provide the bible verse that indicates that and we can discuss. Thanks!



I just don't understand why this is a major topic that is debated. Also the following link is of new evidence that suggest that humans did not evolve from apes but rather that apes and humans co-evolved from a single ancestor. Pretty interesting, huh?

**I tried looking for the link but I am short on time. If anyone finds it please post it! I read it on yahoo the day before yesterday. It was on the homepage. If I find it I will post it. Thanks!Well I think evolution for decades has theorized that man and apes evolved from a common ancestor, so I don't understand what your point is.

If you have a link you would like to discuss, please take the time to find it and post it. Asking others to provide the exact link you are thinking of is going to be a hit and miss ordeal. Thanks!

xMChemicalRx
10-13-2009, 09:55 PM
My bad. I meant to write that the bible states that the earth is the center of the universe. I don't know where the quotes are but people were excommunicated because of their beliefs that the sun was the center of the universe.

poornate
10-13-2009, 10:11 PM
I think that was Ptolemy, but not in the bible (as far as I can remember)...

Dolphan7
10-15-2009, 04:47 PM
My bad. I meant to write that the bible states that the earth is the center of the universe. I don't know where the quotes are but people were excommunicated because of their beliefs that the sun was the center of the universe.Excomunicated from the Catholic church is a far cry from what is in the bible.

Lets just say that what you are referring to isn't actually in the bible, thus not a biblically supported belief, and only appears to be one of many unsupported beliefs practiced by the Catholic Church.

JamesBW43
10-16-2009, 05:09 AM
I believe in both God and evolution. The bible strikes me as a combination of history and metaphors/fables.

aesop
10-18-2009, 01:49 PM
I believe in both God and evolution. The bible strikes me as a combination of history and metaphors/fables.Where do you draw the line between history and fables?

JamesBW43
10-21-2009, 01:55 AM
Where do you draw the line between history and fables?

Hard to say. It's a judgment call in my opinion.