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jim1
11-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Florida quarterback Tim Tebow will be drafted higher than a lot of people think. But Tony Dungy takes that one further: Tebow's going to be a Top Five pick, as he said on Dan Patrick's radio show (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/blog/84261/index.html?eref=sihp target=).

From the show's notes: "Dungy also had interesting comments on Tim Tebow. Dungy loves winners. He thinks Charlie Ward would have been a great NFL quarterback because he won at every level. Dungy said that Tebow is like that. He just wins, and that will translate to the NFL."
One thing that will help Tebow and probably factors into Dungy's thinking: Tampa Bay will have a Top 5 pick and might take Tebow for his box-office appeal as much as on-field talent. Jacksonville will have a high pick, too, and its owner is already on record saying that.

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2009/11/_1_sometimes_things_dont.html

Namor
11-02-2009, 11:42 AM
Tony Dungy=savior of lost causes.

Ricky4Life
11-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Why would Tampa take him if they have Freeman and Johnson, where would they look to put him?? Fullback??? They already have Winslow at TE. I can see Jacksonville take him if they are not moved to LA.

TedSlimmJr
11-02-2009, 06:35 PM
Tony Dungy=savior of lost causes.


:lol:


David Greene was a winner on every level too.....in fact...he's the all time winningest QB in D-1 history with 42 wins.....breaking Peyton Manning's record...

Greene is the SEC's all time leader in yards gained.....I believe he only lost 1 game as a starter his entire career in college...

Yes...this is the David Greene that the Seahawks drafted in the 3rd round that has NEVER played in an NFL game....

The problem that these guys run into is.....all those wins can't throw the football against NFL defenses for them....

Charlie Ward is the best college football player I've ever seen.....right up there with Herschel Walker, Tommy Frazier.............and Tim Tebow....

Ironically, 4 of them are quarterbacks.....and 3 of them never played a single down of NFL football....

Finsfan79
11-02-2009, 07:25 PM
Ken Dorsey >>> Tim Teabow for an NFL QB and Dorsey was nothing special either.

Teabow is not a good NFL QB sorry he just doesnt got the arm, ability for his throws. He right now is a product of a system and product of talent about him.

Clipse
11-02-2009, 07:46 PM
As what? A RB? FB? TE? Obviously not as a QB I hope.

Valandui
11-02-2009, 08:16 PM
Tim Tebow will be the best FB in the league.

jim1
11-02-2009, 08:18 PM
Ken Dorsey >>> Tim Teabow for an NFL QB and Dorsey was nothing special either.

Teabow is not a good NFL QB sorry he just doesnt got the arm, ability for his throws. He right now is a product of a system and product of talent about him.

Well, I already regret starting this thread. But that last statement is ridiculous. I'm not a Gators fan, but I've seen more crap written about Percy Harvin and Tim Tebow than I can believe. Harvin might well end up being the NFL rookie of the year. Tebow- I thought that he looked like crap in the 2 games after his concussion, but he's back on track. I think that he's got a good arm- the delivery is slightly slow, but not really that bad. The footwork comments I find overstated. He's got some power to his arm and I think that he's pretty accurate. Case in point the Oklahoma game last year- he was better than Bradford, and Bradford was a consensus top 5 pick before the shoulder injury.

Anyway, I've been through these Tebow wars- not interested anymore. But I'll just shake my head and laugh when I hear that he's nothing more than a TE, FB or HB prospect in the pros. We'll see. So far Dungy and Jon Gruden disagree, with gusto.

TedSlimmJr
11-02-2009, 08:46 PM
Well, I already regret starting this thread. But that last statement is ridiculous. I'm not a Gators fan, but I've seen more crap written about Percy Harvin and Tim Tebow than I can believe. Harvin might well end up being the NFL rookie of the year. Tebow- I thought that he looked like crap in the 2 games after his concussion, but he's back on track. I think that he's got a good arm- the delivery is slightly slow, but not really that bad. The footwork comments I find overstated. He's got some power to his arm and I think that he's pretty accurate. Case in point the Oklahoma game last year- he was better than Bradford, and Bradford was a consensus top 5 pick before the shoulder injury.

Anyway, I've been through these Tebow wars- not interested anymore. But I'll just shake my head and laugh when I hear that he's nothing more than a TE, FB or HB prospect in the pros. We'll see. So far Dungy and Jon Gruden disagree, with gusto.


It's funny....I remember when the John Beckster's used to point to him outdueling Matt Ryan when he was a junior and Beck was already 24 years old in BYU's matchup with BC as to why Beck was going to be a better quarterback...:lol:

Here's the deal....Tebow wasn't better than Bradford in the NC game.....they both threw 2 TD's and 2 INT's......except Bradford passed for more yardage....

The difference? Bradford was facing a MUCH, MUCH tougher defense than Tebow was.....Florida won that game by stopping 2 Oklahoma drives inside the 5 yard line....one of them a goalline stop on 4th down....

Percy Harvin was the difference in that game.....his rushing performance is what bailed Tebow out....Bradford had literally no running game against Florida's defense...

There's a reason Tebow came back for his senior season after being given a 3rd round grade by an NFL Draft Advisory Committee last year.....because the knocks on him are legitimate when you project him to the NFL....they're not overstated...

It's not just his poor footwork....you'll find that out when he's asked to start taking snaps from under center and dropping back in post season workouts....

His delivery is much more than slightly low....it's slow as molasses.....he has a huge windup where he drops the ball below his waist on the way back.....which is what leads directly to fumbles when the OT steers a pass rusher past the quarterback....(the Kentucky game is a great example of this)....they can swipe the ball out of his hands....

QB coaches in the NFL will not stand for this.....he'll either correct it or he won't see the field as a quarterback unless they use him as some gimmick in a Wildcat type package out of the shotgun....period...

And you can't just drastically change the way a guy has thrown the football all his life.....it's a long process.....Tebow will have to be completely torn down and built back up in reguards to mechanics from the ground up to ever be a legitimate threat as a drop back passer in the NFL....

Tony Dungy likes him because of his intangibles and he's a good Christian kid......don't kid yourself....

Dungy is a defensive coach by trade anyway....and Gruden just loves to have a roster full of QB's that are no better than the other....

ChambersWI
11-02-2009, 08:54 PM
Tebow has a lot of weaknesses, but let's not act like he's a scrub NFL prospect; he's just very raw due to the system. Tebow has decent size and a good arm (not great). He's got horrible mechanics and is not very accurate, but he's a QB prospect.

But let's remember, Jacksonville's owner came out and said he'd love for Tebow to be a Jag. Tebow is from Jacksonville, and the Jags are struggling to sell tickets. And a team with a great runningback like MJD, a decent (but young) OL, and some promising young WRs (and a decent TE) is the perfect spot for Superman.

X-Pacolypse
11-02-2009, 08:55 PM
Tebow is an excellent college quarterback. As we all know, being a great college quarterback does not equate to success in the NFL. Tebow got eaten alive as a passer by a legitimate, Super Bowl winning, NFL defensive scheme when he faced the Vols and Monte Kiffin's D. I've stated Teblow's OBVIOUS flaws before and I don't feel like repeating myself right now. I will say this, if Jacksonville is dumb enough to draft him in the first round, I just hope they're prepared to look for another QB four years down the road when Tebow bombs.

jim1
11-02-2009, 09:06 PM
It's funny....I remember when the John Beckster's used to point to him outdueling Matt Ryan when he was a junior and Beck was already 24 years old in BYU's matchup with BC as to why Beck was going to be a better quarterback...:lol:

Here's the deal....Tebow wasn't better than Bradford in the NC game.....they both threw 2 TD's and 2 INT's......except Bradford passed for more yardage....

The difference? Bradford was facing a MUCH, MUCH tougher defense than Tebow was.....Florida won that game by stopping 2 Oklahoma drives inside the 5 yard line....one of them a goalline stop on 4th down....

Percy Harvin was the difference in that game.....his rushing performance is what bailed Tebow out....Bradford had literally no running game against Florida's defense...

There's a reason Tebow came back for his senior season after being given a 3rd round grade by an NFL Draft Advisory Committee last year.....because the knocks on him are legitimate when you project him to the NFL....they're not overstated...

It's not just his poor footwork....you'll find that out when he's asked to start taking snaps from under center and dropping back in post season workouts....

His delivery is much more than slightly low....it's slow as molasses.....he has a huge windup where he drops the ball below his waist on the way back.....which is what leads directly to fumbles when the OT steers a pass rusher past the quarterback....(the Kentucky game is a great example of this)....they can swipe the ball out of his hands....

QB coaches in the NFL will not stand for this.....he'll either correct it or he won't see the field as a quarterback unless they use him as some gimmick in a Wildcat type package out of the shotgun....period...

And you can't just drastically change the way a guy has thrown the football all his life.....it's a long process.....Tebow will have to be completely torn down and built back up in reguards to mechanics from the ground up to ever be a legitimate threat as a drop back passer in the NFL....

Tony Dungy likes him because of his intangibles and he's a good Christian kid......don't kid yourself....

Dungy is a defensive coach by trade anyway....and Gruden just loves to have a roster full of QB's that are no better than the other....

Uh, who won MVP of that game? Tebow won it for a reason- he was the best player on the field. I watched that game intently. For Harvin, Loadholt, Tebow, Duke Robinson, Spikes, Louis Murphy. Tebow outplayed Bradford. Harvin was amazing on half of an ankle, but he didn't bail out Tebow. Tebow is in a system where he's looking to run/pass- his footwork is appropriate for what he's aked to do. His delivery is not that slow. He's got a good arm, I've seen him make some great throws- deep outs, slants, bombs, take your pick. Case in point the Alabama game- he made some very good throws in that one. When it comes to his mechanics I'll be my own judge- he'll adapt, and his arm will be fine. Reminds me of the argument that Harvin couldn't run the route tree- yeah, right.

Like I said earlier, I've been through the Tebow debates- not much interest in engaing in more. We'll see what happens.

X-Pacolypse
11-02-2009, 09:20 PM
Uh, who won MVP of that game? Tebow won it for a reason- he was the best player on the field. I watched that game intently. For Harvin, Loadholt, Tebow, Duke Robinson, Spikes, Louis Murphy. Tebow outplayed Bradford. Harvin was amazing on half of an ankle, but he didn't bail out Tebow. Tebow is in a system where he's looking to run/pass- his footwork is appropriate for what he's aked to do. His delivery is not that slow. He's got a good arm, I've seen him make some great throws- deep outs, slants, bombs, take your pick. Case in point the Alabama game- he made some very good throws in that one. When it comes to his mechanics I'll be my own judge- he'll adapt, and his arm will be fine. Reminds me of the argument that Harvin couldn't run the route tree- yeah, right.

Like I said earlier, I've been through the Tebow debates- not much interest in engaing in more. We'll see what happens.

Yes, it is. Bryon Leftwich gets the ball out quicker than Tebow does, which is really saying something. Tebow has such a long and rather awkward wind up, shoot Gary Danielson made a point during the Georgia game that because Tebow holds the ball so low he's going to have major fumbling issues at the next level. And you know something? He's right! Tebow is not going to get that ball out on time against the likes of James Harrison, Terrell Suggs, Dwight Freeney, and all of the other elite pass rushers of the NFL.

TedSlimmJr
11-02-2009, 09:29 PM
Uh, who won MVP of that game? Tebow won it for a reason- he was the best player on the field. I watched that game intently. For Harvin, Loadholt, Tebow, Duke Robinson, Spikes, Louis Murphy. Tebow outplayed Bradford. Harvin was amazing on half of an ankle, but he didn't bail out Tebow. Tebow is in a system where he's looking to run/pass- his footwork is appropriate for what he's aked to do. His delivery is not that slow. He's got a good arm, I've seen him make some great throws- deep outs, slants, bombs, take your pick. Case in point the Alabama game- he made some very good throws in that one. When it comes to his mechanics I'll be my own judge- he'll adapt, and his arm will be fine. Reminds me of the argument that Harvin couldn't run the route tree- yeah, right.

Like I said earlier, I've been through the Tebow debates- not much interest in engaing in more. We'll see what happens.


Tebow debates are the best......enjoy them while you can.....because there won't be any soon enough....:lol:

Winning the MVP doesn't mean you're the best player on the field.....just like winning the Heisman doesn't mean you're the best player in college football....

If you ask me....Gerald McCoy was the best player on the field in that game....

Pat White won the MVP of the Senior Bowl......you think he was the best player on the field?

Tebow's throws in the Alabama game were better than than the one's in the Oklahoma game....although all of his TD passes were short little throws from in the red zone....

His pick to Nick Harris was LATE and Harris got the jump on him because of his windup.....his pick to McCoy was just a bad read....it happens....

Do you have anything to support your arguement that Tebow outplayed Bradford other than you watched the game?....I watched it too....Percy Harvin was the MVP of that game IMO....

I've never seen a quarterback that throws passes as ugly as Tebow be successful in the NFL....

And there's a reason why quarterbacks from these type systems don't make it in the NFL.....it simply doesn't translate.....for several reasons....

If you understand the intracacies and philosophy behind the zone read/spread schemes......it's not all that complicated to realize why either....

jim1
11-02-2009, 09:31 PM
Yes, it is. Bryon Leftwich gets the ball out quicker than Tebow does, which is really saying something. Tebow has such a long and rather awkward wind up, shoot Gary Danielson made a point during the Georgia game that because Tebow holds the ball so low he's going to have major fumbling issues at the next level. And you know something? He's right! Tebow is not going to get that ball out on time against the likes of James Harrison, Terrell Suggs, Dwight Freeney, and all of the other elite pass rushers of the NFL.

I've made a point of watching Tebow's delivery and footwork. I would call his delivery slightly awkward, but not that bad at all. Look at the throws at 1:30 and 2:50 on this clip- does that strike you as tremendously slow, molasses like? Not in my book, and I'd venture that I can throw a football better than the vast majority of people on this site. The point is that I draw my own conclusions- I'm not a Gator fan, but I saw in Harvin an uber talent and got reamed for it. I see potential in Tebow to be very good at the next level, and I think that his skills are dumped on regularly. It's just my opinion. Like I said, we'll see what happens with him in the pros.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMPsSuPPXgw

jim1
11-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Tebow debates are the best......enjoy them while you can.....because there won't be any soon enough....:lol:

Winning the MVP doesn't mean you're the best player on the field.....just like winning the Heisman doesn't mean you're the best player in college football....

If you ask me....Gerald McCoy was the best player on the field in that game....

Pat White won the MVP of the Senior Bowl......you think he was the best player on the field?

Tebow's throws in the Alabama game were better than than the one's in the Oklahoma game....although all of his TD passes were short little throws from in the red zone....

His pick to Nick Harris was LATE and Harris got the jump on him because of his windup.....his pick to McCoy was just a bad read....it happens....

Do you have anything to support your arguement that Tebow outplayed Bradford other than you watched the game?....I watched it too....Percy Harvin was the MVP of that game IMO....

I've never seen a quarterback that throws passes as ugly as Tebow be successful in the NFL....

And there's a reason why quarterbacks from these type systems don't make it in the NFL.....it simply doesn't translate.....for several reasons....

If you understand the intracacies and philosophy behind the zone read/spread schemes......it's not all that complicated to realize why either....

Well, I looked up the stats just for you- Bradford's and Tebow's passing stats were very similar. And Tebow rushed for over 100 yards while Bradford rushed for minus 18. As to Harvin- I think that a case could be made that he was the MVP, but I think that Tebow was the right call.

As to specifics- my main interest in watching Tebow regards his pro potential. I remember him throwing a deep out against Oklahoma that I thought was excellent, I think that it was in the 1st quarter but I'm not sure. I don't really remember the quality of the long pass to Harvin. It's been almost a year, so at this point I'm a bit hazy on the specifics. What I remember is watching and once again thinking that the critical arguments regarding his game were overblown. And if I recall correctly Bob Griese said that Tebow was clearly the best player on the field. I'd actually be interested in watching that game and the Alabama game again before the draft.

TedSlimmJr
11-02-2009, 10:12 PM
Well, I looked up the stats just for you- Bradford's and Tebow's passing stats were very similar. And Tebow rushed for over 100 yards while Bradford rushed for minus 18. As to Harvin- I think that a case could be made that he was the MVP, but I think that Tebow was the right call.

As to specifics- my main interest in watching Tebow regards his pro potential. I remember him throwing a deep out against Oklahoma that I thought was excellent, I think that it was in the 1st quarter but I'm not sure. I don't really remember the quality of the long pass to Harvin. It's been almost a year, so at this point I'm a bit hazy on the specifics. What I remember is watching and once again thinking that the critical arguments regarding his game were overblown. And if I recall correctly Bob Griese said that Tebow was clearly the best player on the field. I'd actually be interested in watching that game and the Alabama game again before the draft.


I appreciate you looking up those stats for me sir.....but I already knew them thanks anyway...

Why do you think Bradford rushed for less than 0 yards and Tebow rushed for over 100?

Simple....Tebow plays in an offense where he's used as a battering ram....a fullback that takes the snap from the shotgun....

Bradford plays in an offense where he's required to do the things that actually TRANSLATE more to what playing the position in the NFL boils down to.....playing quarterback....

I remember the Orange Bowl like it was yesterday....I remember all 4 picks both QB's threw like it was yesterday.....I still have SEC CG on DVR...lol....I'm a Bama guy Jim....the only thing my DVR consists of is football games....

Here's where I think a lot of people have trouble.....it applies to every position....

The best QB in college football....and the best QB in college football when you project his skills to the NFL are OFTEN two different answers......this applies to WR's.....RB's......DB's.....LB's....etc....

It's why Mike Hass won the award for best college WR.......and guys like Santonio Holmes and Greg Jennings from his same draft class are playing on Sundays and Hass is not....

You can't pidgeon hole prospects......but history does repeat itself...and systems do matter....

It's why record setting QB's from Hawaii and Texas Tech can't sniff an NFL field (barely even ever a roster)....and guys like Big Ben and Carson Palmer are pro bowl NFL quarterbacks.....

It's why guys like Joe Hamilton and Cade McNown (who have led the NCAA in passing efficiency) have real jobs and guys like Matt Ryan and Kurt Warner are playing on Sundays....

It's why guys like Rashan Salaam (Heisman Trophy) are selling furniture and guys like Michael Turner are making pro bowls....etc...

I respectfully disagree with Bob Griese....

I've said it even going back to last year......you can check for yourself.....that I'll take Jimmy Clausen over all these guys.....

BobDole
11-02-2009, 10:14 PM
the NFL/tebow debate. oh good. me and slimm did this about a year ago on this site - and it went nowhere - which is exactly where this one will go.

the only thing i will say here is that tebow - just like every other quarterback coming out of college - has things he'll have to work on in the NFL. improving his delivery and learning how to take snaps from under center / 5 step drops are among them. he won't have it as easy a time as QB's that come out of pro-style systems will, but to count someone like that out immediately is completely insane.

a year ago i would've said he'll be the next steve young. now, after watching him very closely, and realizing that many of the knocks are legit - i'll say that he'll need some work before he'll be ready to compete in the NFL. after a year or two sitting on the bench and working on the things that need to be fixed/learned - he has as good a chance as any.

i remember a lot of this stuff 4 years ago when he was coming into college - and look how that went.

jim1
11-02-2009, 10:29 PM
I appreciate you looking up those stats for me sir.....but I already knew them thanks anyway...

Why do you think Bradford rushed for less than 0 yards and Tebow rushed for over 100?

Simple....Tebow plays in an offense where he's used as a battering ram....a fullback that takes the snap from the shotgun....

Bradford plays in an offense where he's required to do the things that actually TRANSLATE more to what playing the position in the NFL boils down to.....playing quarterback....

I remember the Orange Bowl like it was yesterday....I remember all 4 picks both QB's threw like it was yesterday.....I still have SEC CG on DVR...lol....I'm a Bama guy Jim....the only thing my DVR consists of is football games....

Here's where I think a lot of people have trouble.....it applies to every position....

The best QB in college football....and the best QB in college football when you project his skills to the NFL are OFTEN two different answers......this applies to WR's.....RB's......DB's.....LB's....etc....

It's why Mike Hass won the award for best college WR.......and guys like Santonio Holmes and Greg Jennings from his same draft class are playing on Sundays and Hass is not....

You can't pidgeon hole prospects......but history does repeat itself...and systems do matter....

It's why record setting QB's from Hawaii and Texas Tech can't sniff an NFL field (barely even ever a roster)....and guys like Big Ben and Carson Palmer are pro bowl NFL quarterbacks.....

It's why guys like Joe Hamilton and Cade McNown (who have led the NCAA in passing efficiency) have real jobs and guys like Matt Ryan and Kurt Warner are playing on Sundays....

It's why guys like Rashan Salaam (Heisman Trophy) are selling furniture and guys like Michael Turner are making pro bowls....etc...

I respectfully disagree with Bob Griese....

I've said it even going back to last year......you can check for yourself.....that I'll take Jimmy Clausen over all these guys.....

And yet the two had almost identical passing statistics. Hmmm... So at the end of the day Tebow's passing stats equaled Bradford and his rushing stats surpassed the entire Sooners output. Not bad for a battering ram.

I'm not going to change your mind about Tebow (nor do I really want to) and I'm sure vice versa. We all have our points of view, time will be the judge. Let's let this one go for now.

TedSlimmJr
11-02-2009, 10:45 PM
And yet the two had almost identical passing statistics. Hmmm... So at the end of the day Tebow's passing stats equaled Bradford and his rushing stats surpassed the entire Sooners output. Not bad for a battering ram.

I'm not going to change your mind about Tebow (nor do I really want to) and I'm sure vice versa. We all have our points of view, time will be the judge. Let's let this one go for now.


You're making me make a case for a quarterback I don't even like as the best NFL prospect.....:lol:.....

But he's a better NFL prospect than Tebow....

You have to understand the difference between an NFL THROW and an NCAA THROW....

Graham Harrell, Timmy Chang, Andre Ware, Kliff Kingsbury, Alex Smith,.....good grief.....I could go on forever with these guys....

They could all make NCAA level throws one after the other.....but they can't make the NFL caliber throws......which is one of the reasons why they hold records and Heisman Trophies but can't play the position in the NFL....

Bradford was playing against the best defense in college football in the Florida Gators......Tebow was playing against another one of the joke defenses from the Big-12 last year.....they were ranked somewhere in the 90's out of 120 teams in total defense.....

Oklahoma was all offense.....the highest scoring offense in NCAA history.....but you can't sustain that against SEC defenses....you just can't....

Why don't you point to Tebow's stat line against Tennessee this year? A team where he faced an NFL caliber defensive coordinator in Monte Kiffin and a legitimate NFL style Tampa 2 scheme?

Something like 115 passing yards.....3 sacks...a fumble and an interception.......he struggled big time....and he'll see that times 10 every week once he gets in the NFL....

He's not going to be able to camoflauge his passing weakness by rushing for 100 yards in the NFL...

I'm not bashing Tebow....I'm bashing these systems that have ruined quarterback prospects nowdays....

X-Pacolypse
11-02-2009, 10:57 PM
You're making me make a case for a quarterback I don't even like as the best NFL prospect.....:lol:.....

But he's a better NFL prospect than Tebow....

You have to understand the difference between an NFL THROW and an NCAA THROW....

Graham Harrell, Timmy Chang, Andre Ware, Kliff Kingsbury, Alex Smith,.....good grief.....I could go on forever with these guys....

They could all make NCAA level throws one after the other.....but they can't make the NFL caliber throws......which is one of the reasons why they hold records and Heisman Trophies but can't play the position in the NFL....

Bradford was playing against the best defense in college football in the Florida Gators......Tebow was playing against another one of the joke defenses from the Big-12 last year.....they were ranked somewhere in the 90's out of 120 teams in total defense.....

Oklahoma was all offense.....the highest scoring offense in NCAA history.....but you can't sustain that against SEC defenses....you just can't....

Why don't you point to Tebow's stat line against Tennessee this year? A team where he faced an NFL caliber defensive coordinator in Monte Kiffin and a legitimate NFL style Tampa 2 scheme?

Something like 115 passing yards.....3 sacks...a fumble and an interception.......he struggled big time....and he'll see that times 10 every week once he gets in the NFL....

He's not going to be able to camoflauge his passing weakness by rushing for 100 yards in the NFL...

I'm not bashing Tebow....I'm bashing these systems that have ruined quarterback prospects nowdays....

This point seems to keep getting missed by Tebow apologists.

jim1
11-02-2009, 11:49 PM
You're making me make a case for a quarterback I don't even like as the best NFL prospect.....:lol:.....

But he's a better NFL prospect than Tebow....

You have to understand the difference between an NFL THROW and an NCAA THROW....

Graham Harrell, Timmy Chang, Andre Ware, Kliff Kingsbury, Alex Smith,.....good grief.....I could go on forever with these guys....

They could all make NCAA level throws one after the other.....but they can't make the NFL caliber throws......which is one of the reasons why they hold records and Heisman Trophies but can't play the position in the NFL....

Bradford was playing against the best defense in college football in the Florida Gators......Tebow was playing against another one of the joke defenses from the Big-12 last year.....they were ranked somewhere in the 90's out of 120 teams in total defense.....

Oklahoma was all offense.....the highest scoring offense in NCAA history.....but you can't sustain that against SEC defenses....you just can't....

Why don't you point to Tebow's stat line against Tennessee this year? A team where he faced an NFL caliber defensive coordinator in Monte Kiffin and a legitimate NFL style Tampa 2 scheme?

Something like 115 passing yards.....3 sacks...a fumble and an interception.......he struggled big time....and he'll see that times 10 every week once he gets in the NFL....

He's not going to be able to camoflauge his passing weakness by rushing for 100 yards in the NFL...

I'm not bashing Tebow....I'm bashing these systems that have ruined quarterback prospects nowdays....

Dude, I don't need to be lectured about the difference between an NFL throw and a college throw, so you can stop with the Timmy Chang nonsense. That's why I specifically mentioned the deep out against Oklahoma- a pro caliber throw. I didn't see the Tennessee game, but I'd venture to say that Nick Saban threw some wrinkles in against Tebow last year, and he did fine. And despite most Dolphins fans hatred of him, Saban has a pretty good defensive track record, college and pros.

Bradford, by the way, looked extremely accurate from what I saw last year, strong arm, too. Looks to be a very good pro prospect to me, I'd take him over Claussen. And as to the systems argument, plenty of QBs from pro style college offenses have flopped as well. That being said, there's a good chance that more pro offenses with start running some variation of the spread offense, which will if anything increase Tebow's value. I like the guy as a pro prospect- like him, not love him. If I had to pick one guy now it might be the UW guy, Jake Locker, but I have to see more.

I'm not interested in a running debate on this- as I've already mentioned, been there done that. I find your arguments unconvincing, as I'm sure mine are to you. . The debate has run its course so let it go or at least debate the issue with someone else.

TedSlimmJr
11-03-2009, 12:27 AM
Dude, I don't need to be lectured about the difference between an NFL throw and a college throw, so you can stop with the Timmy Chang nonsense. That's why I specifically mentioned the deep out against Oklahoma- a pro caliber throw. I didn't see the Tennessee game, but I'd venture to say that Nick Saban threw some wrinkles in against Tebow last year, and he did fine. And despite most Dolphins fans hatred of him, Saban has a pretty good defensive track record, college and pros.

Bradford, by the way, looked extremely accurate from what I saw last year, strong arm, too. Looks to be a very good pro prospect to me, I'd take him over Claussen. And as to the systems argument, plenty of QBs from pro style college offenses have flopped as well. That being said, there's a good chance that more pro offenses with start running some variation of the spread offense, which will if anything increase Tebow's value. I like the guy as a pro prospect- like him, not love him. If I had to pick one guy now it might be the UW guy, Jake Locker, but I have to see more.

I'm not interested in a running debate on this- as I've already mentioned, been there done that. I find your arguments unconvincing, as I'm sure mine are to you. . The debate has run its course so let it go or at least debate the issue with someone else.


Plenty of QB's from pro style offenses have failed......but ALL QB's from gimmick offenses have failed.....see the difference?

You increase your odds of success to hit on a quarterback by avoiding the system guys high in the draft at all costs....it's just not good drafting....

I'm not referring to Tebow's arm strength....his arm is plenty strong.....so were several other busts....there's a lot more that goes into an "NFL caliber throw".....anticipation....timing...etc...

Offenses in the NFL will ALWAYS be predicated on precise timing....and Tebow lacks the fundamentals to execute properly in such an offense....especially against NFL caliber defenders in NFL caliber schemes IMO...

NFL offenses may incorporate some ASPECTS of the spread in their attacks (mainly just in the form of spacing and formation) but the reads and terminology will be vastly different....

Tebow is good college football player....but the NFL never has and never will conform what works to fit a players skills coming out of college.....it's the player that either adapts to the pro game or he doesn't....not the other way around...

Tebow's value is that he may be versatile enough to play another position....and his intangibles....Alex Smith was a MUCH better passer in the same system under Meyer....and it just doesn't translate...

When Tebow leaves....Meyer will have ANOTHER QB that fits the system and so on and so forth....

Bradford is extremely accurate....he hits a moving target as well as any quarterback there is....but he's done it facing NO PRESSURE in his face for the most part.....when he's getting hit and slammed to the ground he's just not built to hold up to the pounding he'll take week in and week out in college....much less the NFL....and he's still a "system" quarterback....just like Jason White, Josh Heupel, Nate Hybl, and all the other QB's that have played under Stoops at Oklahoma....

I know Tebow will have his supporters just like all players do.....just the way it is....

I couldn't convince anyone about Matt Ryan either....or Jamarcus Russell....or Brady Quinn....or Chad Pennington...or John Beck.....etc..etc...

I have a pretty good track record when it comes to quarterbacks myself....just enjoy the debates man.....we'll all be more knowledgeable because of them....

Interesting that you mentioned Jake Locker.....lets move on to him shall we? :lol:

jim1
11-03-2009, 07:38 AM
Plenty of QB's from pro style offenses have failed......but ALL QB's from gimmick offenses have failed.....see the difference?

You increase your odds of success to hit on a quarterback by avoiding the system guys high in the draft at all costs....it's just not good drafting....

I'm not referring to Tebow's arm strength....his arm is plenty strong.....so were several other busts....there's a lot more that goes into an "NFL caliber throw".....anticipation....timing...etc...

Offenses in the NFL will ALWAYS be predicated on precise timing....and Tebow lacks the fundamentals to execute properly in such an offense....especially against NFL caliber defenders in NFL caliber schemes IMO...

NFL offenses may incorporate some ASPECTS of the spread in their attacks (mainly just in the form of spacing and formation) but the reads and terminology will be vastly different....

Tebow is good college football player....but the NFL never has and never will conform what works to fit a players skills coming out of college.....it's the player that either adapts to the pro game or he doesn't....not the other way around...

Tebow's value is that he may be versatile enough to play another position....and his intangibles....Alex Smith was a MUCH better passer in the same system under Meyer....and it just doesn't translate...

When Tebow leaves....Meyer will have ANOTHER QB that fits the system and so on and so forth....

Bradford is extremely accurate....he hits a moving target as well as any quarterback there is....but he's done it facing NO PRESSURE in his face for the most part.....when he's getting hit and slammed to the ground he's just not built to hold up to the pounding he'll take week in and week out in college....much less the NFL....and he's still a "system" quarterback....just like Jason White, Josh Heupel, Nate Hybl, and all the other QB's that have played under Stoops at Oklahoma....

I know Tebow will have his supporters just like all players do.....just the way it is....

I couldn't convince anyone about Matt Ryan either....or Jamarcus Russell....or Brady Quinn....or Chad Pennington...or John Beck.....etc..etc...

I have a pretty good track record when it comes to quarterbacks myself....just enjoy the debates man.....we'll all be more knowledgeable because of them....

Interesting that you mentioned Jake Locker.....lets move on to him shall we? :lol:

Dude, the metaphor is that your lips are moving but I can't hear what you're saying. Maybe closer to the draft we can debate Locker, etc. Believe me when I tell you that I've had my fill of the Tebow debates- I'm just not interested, and they end up going nowhere anyway. He will succeed or fail as a QB in the NFL, we'll see what happens. By the way, I've seen Tebow make a lot of good timing throws- I don't know where your point on that came from.

As to the whole "system QB" argument- eh. Personally I think that it's a stretch to call the gator offense a gimmick offense- it's a spread offense that utilizes Tebow's running ability- so what? he's still made plenty of great throws all over the field. Don't get carried away with yourself on that one. You mentioned Alex Smith- what about Aaron Rodgers out of the Tedford system? Rodgers is, for my money, one of the top QBs in the league and was a steal at #24. So you would have passed on Rodgers because he was a system guy, right? And now Rodgers is what, maybe one of the top 5 QB's in the league, top 10 for sure. And look at who either underperformed or flopped out of the Tedford system before him: Dilfer, Akili Smith, Boller, David Carr, Joey Harrington. Yeah, they pretty much all failed- Dilfer so-so. And I think that Rodgers is just outstanding and going to get nothing but better. Alex Smith- small hands, maybe he has a problem reading defenses, not sure. But Tedford's system minimized his QB's need to read defenses. And yet Rodgers is excelling- my point is save your hard and fast rules about who will succeed and fail as an NFL QB for someone else, because I'm not buying your absolutes- try to sell them to someone else. Your guy Claussen- not so hot until this year, and he has been coached to death since he was a teenager- is he maxing out his potential? I see him being discussed as a top pick and that suprises me- we'll see what happens there, too. Locker and Bradford easily over Claussen for me.

I'm falling into the trap again of extending this discussion that goes nowwhere. Let's discuss QBs before the next draft, ok? Done with this.

TedSlimmJr
11-03-2009, 08:30 AM
Dude, the metaphor is that your lips are moving but I can't hear what you're saying. Maybe closer to the draft we can debate Locker, etc. Believe me when I tell you that I've had my fill of the Tebow debates- I'm just not interested, and they end up going nowhere anyway. He will succeed or fail as a QB in the NFL, we'll see what happens. By the way, I've seen Tebow make a lot of good timing throws- I don't know where your point on that came from.

As to the whole "system QB" argument- eh. You mentioned Alex Smith- what about Aaron Rodgers out of the Tedford system? Rodgers is, for my money, one of the top QBs in the league and was a steal at #24. So you would have passed on Rodgers because he was a system guy, right? And now Rodgers is what, maybe one of the top 5 QB's in the league, top 10 for sure. And look at who either underperformed or flopped out of the Tedford system before him: Dilfer, Akili Smith, Boller, David Carr, Joey Harrington. Yeah, they pretty much all failed- Dilfer so-so. And I think that Rodgers is just outstanding and going to get nothing but better. Alex Smith- small hands, maybe he has a problem reading defenses, not sure. Your guy Claussen- not so hot until this year, and he has been coached to death since he was a teenager- is he maxing out his potential? I see him being discussed as a top pick and that suprises me- we'll see what happens there, too. Locker and Beradford easily over Claussen for me.

I'm falling into the trap again of extending this discussion that goes nowwhere. Let's discuss QBs before the next draft, ok? Done with this.


Tedford's "system" is a little different than that of say.....a Steve Spurrier coached quarterback.....or an Urban Meyer coached quarterback....

Fundamentals have never been a flaw of a Jeff Tedford coached quarterback like it is with an Urban Meyer or Steve Spurrier coached quarterback...for example...

Tedford played in spread offenses in his CFL days.....but his "system" only has elements of the spread sprinkled in.....it's traditionally featured a pro set (split backs) where the QB takes the snap from under center.....and don't forget Billy Volek either....another Tedford guy....

I love Rodgers.....he's easily one of the top 5 QB's in the league....the difference is he wasn't thrown in there early on a bad team or behind a bad offensive line like Smith, Carr, Harrington, etc. was.......so Rodgers fundamentals and mechanics that he built so solidly under Tedford didn't suffer because of it...

He was allowed to sit and learn for years behind one of the best in NFL history.....

The other element is that Rodgers is still a "system" quarterback.....playing in a WCO......certain systems translate better to certain systems....

Tedford's system is closer to a Norm Chow "system" (the best IMO) when it comes down the the fundamentals.....and Jake Locker will reap the benefits of that Chow system from Sarkisian.....much the way Carson Palmer, Phillip Rivers, etc. did......except Jake Locker is going to have to stay throughout his senior season to see it through and really ingrain those fundamentals.....he's too inexperienced as a starter right now....and has had injury issues throughout his career....

Clausen has been playing behind an offensive line that was giving up school records for sacks since he was a freshman.....and you can tell....sometimes he feels "phantom pressure" due to playing behind such a poor offensive line his first 2 years.....it's just a matter of getting comfortable again....

But he's the best pure passer in college football and has the most upside as an NFL quarterback IMO....he can make throws the other can't....and I'm not exaggerating.....I know that for a fact...

Go back and look professor....I posted before the season started that I felt Clausen was ready to cut down on his mistakes and take his game to the next level....and that I knew I was in the minority when it come to touting his prospects as an NFL signal caller.....just like I was with ol' Matty Ice 2 years ago when I tried to educate all the QB "guru's" to no success...:lol:

The production was already there for him in the form of TD passes, yards, etc.....he just needed better protection and a few weapons....

The problem you run into with Spurrier/Meyer coached quarterbacks is all the thinking is already done for them by the coach.....and they run into trouble when they get to the NFL and can't go to the LOS and look back to the sidelines before every play and receive instructions on what to do based on the defenses pre-snap look....

Which is why Tebow had trouble against Tennessee and Miss St.....they would drop 7 or 8 guys into coverage and force Tebow to read the defense....if it wasn't a pre-conceived screen pass....he would either just dump it off.....take a sack....throw a pick....fumble.....or take off and run....because he was confused....

Not nearly as confused as he'll be on Sundays.....

jim1
11-03-2009, 09:00 AM
Tedford's "system" is a little different than that of say.....a Steve Spurrier coached quarterback.....or an Urban Meyer coached quarterback....

Fundamentals have never been a flaw of a Jeff Tedford coached quarterback like it is with an Urban Meyer or Steve Spurrier coached quarterback...for example...

Tedford played in spread offenses in his CFL days.....but his "system" only has elements of the spread sprinkled in.....it's traditionally featured a pro set (split backs) where the QB takes the snap from under center.....and don't forget Billy Volek either....another Tedford guy....

I love Rodgers.....he's easily one of the top 5 QB's in the league....the difference is he wasn't thrown in there early on a bad team or behind a bad offensive line like Smith, Carr, Harrington, etc. was.......so Rodgers fundamentals and mechanics that he built so solidly under Tedford didn't suffer because of it...

He was allowed to sit and learn for years behind one of the best in NFL history.....

The other element is that Rodgers is still a "system" quarterback.....playing in a WCO......certain systems translate better to certain systems....

Tedford's system is closer to a Norm Chow "system" (the best IMO) when it comes down the the fundamentals.....and Jake Locker will reap the benefits of that Chow system from Sarkisian.....much the way Carson Palmer, Phillip Rivers, etc. did......except Jake Locker is going to have to stay throughout his senior season to see it through and really ingrain those fundamentals.....he's too inexperienced as a starter right now....and has had injury issues throughout his career....

Clausen has been playing behind an offensive line that was giving up school records for sacks since he was a freshman.....and you can tell....sometimes he feels "phantom pressure" due to playing behind such a poor offensive line his first 2 years.....it's just a matter of getting comfortable again....

But he's the best pure passer in college football and has the most upside as an NFL quarterback IMO....he can make throws the other can't....and I'm not exaggerating.....I know that for a fact...

Go back and look professor....I posted before the season started that I felt Clausen was ready to cut down on his mistakes and take his game to the next level....and that I knew I was in the minority when it come to touting his prospects as an NFL signal caller.....just like I was with ol' Matty Ice 2 years ago when I tried to educate all the QB "guru's" to no success...:lol:

The production was already there for him in the form of TD passes, yards, etc.....he just needed better protection and a few weapons....

The problem you run into with Spurrier/Meyer coached quarterbacks is all the thinking is already done for them by the coach.....and they run into trouble when they get to the NFL and can't go to the LOS and look back to the sidelines before every play and receive instructions on what to do based on the defenses pre-snap look....

Which is why Tebow had trouble against Tennessee and Miss St.....they would drop 7 or 8 guys into coverage and force Tebow to read the defense....if it wasn't a pre-conceived screen pass....he would either just dump it off.....take a sack....throw a pick....fumble.....or take off and run....because he was confused....

Not nearly as confused as he'll be on Sundays.....

Whatever. I don't really give a **** about your opinions of Claussen or other QB's, at least not for a few months. Your comment about how you "educate" other posters on QB's makes it clear to me why you feel the need to continue yapping about this subject when I mention repeatedly that I've had my fill. Your "system QB" argument- once again I find myself not giving a crap. The strong fundamentals of the long line of Tedford flops didn't save them, did they? Tebow had bad games against Tennesse and Miss St- big deal. Like his other opponents never made him read a defense. And he didn't look the same in the 3 games after the concussion to me- started looking better in the Georgia game though.

Look, not only do I lack interest in this discussion at this point, it's becoming kind of obvious with your patronizing remarks and pre pubescent smiley faces that you have an extremely healthy view of your knowledge regarding the rating of QB's. I do not share in your high opinion of yourself in this matter. In other words, I don't really care to continue this conversation and I don't really care to hear any more of your opinions at this time- this is beyond stale. We can discuss Locker, Claussen, whoever in a few months, ok? You're beating a dead horse, let's let this one go.

TedSlimmJr
11-03-2009, 10:04 AM
Nothing, no amount of solidly coached fundamentals, can overcome lack of critical experience as far as college quarterbacks go......not when you get to the NFL....

Ideally, if you're going to use a 1st round pick on a quarterback....the magic number is right around at least 32-35 starts in college...

He doesn't neccessarily have to be a senior....what you want is a 3 year starter at minimum.....I'll take the 3 year starter that comes out as a junior over the senior that only started 1 or 2 years....talent and other things being equal of course....

Akili Smith only had 11 starts in college.....he had no business being a 1st round pick...much less the 3rd overall pick in the draft.....but they fell in love with his big arm....

David Carr only started 2 years.....and was thrown behind the worst offensive line that's ever been assembled...

Harrington only had 28 starts.......Kyle Boller 28 starts....and played under 3 different OC's in 3 years under Tedford....

But I'm not going to take the gimmick QB from a spread offense no matter how many starts he has (Pat White, Tim Tebow, etc.).....over the QB with only a handful of starts in college (Mark Sanchez, etc.) but came from a pro style system where the intracacies and fundamentals needed to play the position at the next level have been stressed, polished, and honed...

Tebow didn't just have bad games against Tennessee and Miss St....(the Tennessee game was before the concussion anyway).....and Dan Mullen KNEW exactly how to defense Tebow....he was his former offensive coordinator....

Yes....he looked better against Georgia....the worst defense in the SEC....but he still did most of his damage on the ground playing fullback....he only passed for 160 something yards....and 2 scores....

He had a bad game against LSU.....and I dont believe it had anything to do with any post concussion syndrome....or he wouldn't have been cleared to play....much less carry the football as many times as he did.....only passing for 134 yards...a TD and a INT....


Don't keep asking questions if you already know you won't like the answers...

I know...I know....you're done discussing Tebow in the Tebow thread right....:lol:

jim1
11-03-2009, 10:14 AM
Nothing, no amount of solidly coached fundamentals, can overcome lack of critical experience as far as college quarterbacks go......not when you get to the NFL....

Ideally, if you're going to use a 1st round pick on a quarterback....the magic number is right around at least 32-35 starts in college...

He doesn't neccessarily have to be a senior....what you want is a 3 year starter at minimum.....I'll take the 3 year starter that comes out as a junior over the senior that only started 1 or 2 years....talent and other things being equal of course....

Akili Smith only had 11 starts in college.....he had no business being a 1st round pick...much less the 3rd overall pick in the draft.....but they fell in love with his big arm....

David Carr only started 2 years.....and was thrown behind the worst offensive line that's ever been assembled...

Harrington only had 28 starts.......Kyle Boller 28 starts....and played under 3 different OC's in 3 years under Tedford....

But I'm not going to take the gimmick QB from a spread offense no matter how many starts he has (Pat White, Tim Tebow, etc.).....over the QB with only a handful of starts in college (Mark Sanchez, etc.) but came from a pro style system where the intracacies and fundamentals needed to play the position at the next level have been stressed, polished, and honed...

Tebow didn't just have bad games against Tennessee and Miss St....(the Tennessee game was before the concussion anyway).....and Dan Mullen KNEW exactly how to defense Tebow....he was his former offensive coordinator....

Yes....he looked better against Georgia....the worst defense in the SEC....but he still did most of his damage on the ground playing fullback....he only passed for 160 something yards....and 2 scores....

He had a bad game against LSU.....and I dont believe it had anything to do with any post concussion syndrome....or he wouldn't have been cleared to play....much less carry the football as many times as he did.....only passing for 134 yards...a TD and a INT....


Don't keep asking questions if you already know you won't like the answers...

I know...I know....you're done discussing Tebow in the Tebow thread right....:lol:

Whatever dude. I disagree about Tebow- I think that the concussion affected him quite a bit. College football is big business- he played. I don't like some of your answers because I think that your logic is sometimes flawed and yet you treat your opinions like they were the gospel. It's opinion, not fact. Guess how much I care about your "magic number"- that's right, not much. But to be fair about it, some of your points are well made, we just simply disagree. As to the magic number you have, I think that Mark Sanchez will do just fine on not many college starts at all. Akili Smith had a similar number of starts and a rocket arm, but suffice it to say that reading defenses wasn't a strength of his. Hello CFL. We can talk QBs before the draft, ok? I'll be more receptive to your OPINIONS then, and I'll look forward to it. And one guy I like who might be worth discussing in a couple of months- Jevan Snead. He's not getting much love these days, but I still like him.

TedSlimmJr
11-03-2009, 11:04 AM
Whatever dude. I disagree about Tebow- I think that the concussion affected him quite a bit. College football is big business- he played. I don't like your answers because I think that your logic is sometimes flawed and yet you treat your opinions like they were the gospel. It's opinion, not fact. Guess how much I care about your "magic number"- that's right, not much. But to be fair about it, some of your points are well made, we just simply disagree. As to the magic number you have, I think that Mark Sanchez will do just fine on not many college starts at all. Akili Smith had a similar number of starts and a rocket arm, but suffice it to say that reading defenses wasn't a strength of his. Hello CFL. We can talk QBs before the draft, ok? I'll be more receptive to your OPINIONS then, and I'll look forward to it. And one guy I like who might be worth discussing in a couple of months- Jevan Snead. He's not getting much love these days, but I still like him.


No my opinions aren't gospel....I just call it like I see it...same as everybody else.....bottom line is somebody will be right and somebody will be wrong....rinse...repeat...

Mark Sanchez WILL be fine.....he should've stayed for another year and soaked up more of that fantastic system and gathered more experience IMO.....(and his coaches).....but I knew he'd be fine.....the "gap" between him and Stafford wasn't nearly as big IMO as most people thought....in fact...I had him as the best quarterback in the draft over Stafford...for reasons that I could go into detail about that I'm sure you're not interested in....:lol:....so I'll spare you...


Snead? DEFINITELY needs to stay for his senior season.....he hasn't played anything close to a quarterback that's ready for a step up.....

He struggles big time with his reads...and often.....inexperienced and needs more time to develope in college IMO....

Neck down = 1st round pick

Neck up = NOT

jim1
11-03-2009, 11:12 AM
No my opinions aren't gospel....I just call it like I see it...same as everybody else.....bottom line is somebody will be right and somebody will be wrong....rinse...repeat...

Mark Sanchez WILL be fine.....he should've stayed for another year and soaked up more of that fantastic system and gathered more experience IMO.....(and his coaches).....but I knew he'd be fine.....the "gap" between him and Stafford wasn't nearly as big IMO as most people thought....in fact...I had him as the best quarterback in the draft over Stafford...for reasons that I could go into detail about that I'm sure you're not interested in....:lol:....so I'll spare you...


Snead? DEFINITELY needs to stay for his senior season.....he hasn't played anything close to a quarterback that's ready for a step up.....

He struggles big time with his reads...and often.....inexperienced and needs more time to develope in college IMO....

Neck down = 1st round pick

Neck up = NOT

I'm interested in your opinions, I'm just kind of burned out right now. Snead needs some seasoning, but I like him. It will be interesting to see where he goes if he comes out- maybe the Skins will take him if they can't get Bradford. I liked Sanchez and Stafford- great arms on both of them, good futures ahead.

TedSlimmJr
12-10-2009, 09:19 AM
Hey Jim....you reckon Dungy or Gruden happened to catch any of that SEC championship game where that fullback that walks on water was exposed?

jim1
12-10-2009, 09:35 AM
Hey Jim....you reckon Dungy or Gruden happened to catch any of that SEC championship game where that fullback that walks on water was exposed?

Hey Ted, you reckon that maybe Dungy knows more about football than you do? You reckon that maybe even though Florida got whipped by Alabama that Tebow has had a good game or two over the course of his career? You reckon that maybe that's why Dungy and Gruden rave about him, and apparently Parcells is a big fan?

I've argued about Tebow with people that know a hell of a lot more about football than you do, and I'm over it. I don't see any point in wasting my time with you given the smart***, stupid comments like the one you posted above. My personal opinion is that Tebow gets dumped on far too much, and even though his arm and delivery are less than ideal, to me they'll work. And for every moron spouting off about arms, I doubt that many on this board could throw a football better than me- I'll be my own judge when it comes to throwing the football. Go find someone else to send stupid comments to. I don't see Tebow getting past the Vikings in the 1st round- if you feel differently share your thoughts with someone who gives a crap about your opinion of Tebow.

TedSlimmJr
12-10-2009, 09:45 AM
Uh oh.....sounds like someone maybe finally getting it now...

Are you going by your opinion of Tebow.....or Dungy and Grudens? Make up your mind...

And going by Dungy and Gruden's track record of drafting quarterbacks.....maybe finding a few other guys to support "your" opinion might not be a bad idea...

Perhaps.....Don Shula? Whom I listened to yesterday morning (along with Dave) specifically point out that even THEY thought Tebow couldn't be a drop back passer in the NFL and was best suited to play in a Wildcrutch package....or another position all together....

Look on the bright side....maybe Parcells can unload some of the dead weight for a few extra draft picks and trade up into the top 5 and steal Tebow before it's too late...:lol:

jim1
12-10-2009, 09:56 AM
Uh oh.....sounds like someone maybe finally getting it now...

Are you going by your opinion of Tebow.....or Dungy and Grudens? Make up your mind...

And going by Dungy and Gruden's track record of drafting quarterbacks.....maybe finding a few other guys to support "your" opinion might not be a bad idea...

Perhaps.....Don Shula? Whom I listened to yesterday morning (along with Dave) specifically point out that even THEY thought Tebow couldn't be a drop back passer in the NFL and was best suited to play in a Wildcrutch package....or another position all together....

Look on the bright side....maybe Parcells can unload some of the dead wieght for a few extra draft picks and trade up into the top 5 and steal Tebow before it's too late...:lol:

post deleted

hooshoops
12-10-2009, 10:11 AM
Hey Jim....you reckon Dungy or Gruden happened to catch any of that SEC championship game where that fullback that walks on water was exposed?

lol

jim1
12-10-2009, 10:25 AM
lol

post changed- I don't want to get dragged into the mud like last year.

hooshoops
12-10-2009, 10:42 AM
who the hell you think you're talking to??? calling people names and what not...you better slow your roll son...

anyways i thought it was funny and after last week pretty accurate...it has nothing to do with you...

and whether or not you care what ireland said to me or not i don't care anyways...i'm not looking for friends on a message board...

so watch your tone

jim1
12-10-2009, 10:43 AM
who the hell you think you're talking to??? calling people names and what not...you better slow your roll son...

anyways i thought it was funny and after last week pretty accurate...it has nothing to do with you...

and whether or not you care what ireland said to me or not i don't care anyways...i'm not looking for friends on a message board...

so watch your tone

deleted post

TedSlimmJr
12-10-2009, 10:51 AM
Put it to you this way Jim......I wouldn't advise you, Dungy, or Gruden to go to Vegas anytime soon....

Hot....you guys are not...

The smileys are just to cheer to you up a bit....:lol:

jim1
12-10-2009, 10:59 AM
Put it to you this way Jim......I wouldn't advise you, Dungy, or Gruden to go to Vegas anytime soon....

Hot....you guys are not...

The smileys are just to cheer to you up a bit....:lol:

post deleted

hooshoops
12-10-2009, 11:12 AM
Dude- you can bend over and kiss my ***. And if you noticed I deleted the post.

hey you want to talk football that's fine...that's what i'm here for...just leave the name calling out of it...

as far as this last response i guess maybe i expected it...

jim1
12-10-2009, 11:26 AM
hey you want to talk football that's fine...that's what i'm here for...just leave the name calling out of it...

as far as this last response i guess maybe i expected it...

Fair enough, I'm done. I'm dealing with an idiot- not you, the other guy- who has nothing better to do than annoy people and get a reaction. So I'm done with it. My other comment regarding Ireland was harsh and unneccessary- I retract it and apologize. I'm trying to learn my lesson from last year and I'm done for the day. I'm tired of dealing with annoying, passive aggressive ***holes- again, not you, the other guy.

CJGoCanes
12-10-2009, 11:33 AM
KC Joyner's analysis on ESPN:


Even if the numbers overall argue in Tebow's favor, the scouting eye notes argue almost completely against him. The negatives here include:


1. Tebow has a really elongated throwing motion that hasn't improved even with extensive coaching.



2. He tends to lock onto receivers.


3. He usually doesn't look off the safety.



4. He doesn't read blitzes or other pass-rushing tricks very well.


5. The step forward he takes on play-action fakes is something he almost certainly will not be able to do in the NFL.



6. He is very uncomfortable working in a pocket environment.


Any one of these on its own is a significant weakness, but six are simply too much for anyone to overcome in a single offseason. Unless a team is willing to change its offense to fit his current skill set (and risk losing him to injury with the heavy dose of running that would entail), it is unrealistic to expect him to be a significant contributor immediately. He has the talent to learn how to be a pocket passer, but it would take a Tony Romo-like apprentice period for this to happen.

The Football Scientist lab result: The most apt comparison for Tebow is the Michael Vick of a few years ago. They have three things in common:
1. Superior physical skills.
2. Some really bad passing habits.
3. Huge PR value.
Unfortunately for Tebow, he lacks Vick's speed, and that is what allowed Vick to succeed in the NFL despite his lack of pocket-passer development.

Tebow's charisma and ticket-selling abilities may cause some team to draft him higher than his current skill set says he should be taken. Take that out of the equation, and he is a third- or fourth-round pick and quarterback project. If he goes any higher than that, his selection will be worthy of the TFS overhyped label.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=4724185

Ouch. Still think he goes in the first round

TedSlimmJr
12-10-2009, 11:38 AM
C'mon Jim...cut yourself some slack....:lol:

I've always enjoyed the Tebow debates.....if I was just trying to get a reaction....you fall for it hook, line, and sinker everytime...

I sense an insecurity issue.....seems like you don't appreciate having your opinion debated....on anything....

Snap out of it fella....that's what us *******s do in here....

If you just want off the hook...all you have to do is what you're asking me to do.....STOP REPLYING......when you start paying my internet bill...then perhaps you can instruct me on when I'm to stop posting....

BTW...my track record on drafting quarterbacks would be better than Dungy's or Gruden's....:lol:

See you around....

jim1
12-10-2009, 12:04 PM
C'mon Jim...cut yourself some slack....:lol:

I've always enjoyed the Tebow debates.....if I was just trying to get a reaction....you fall for it hook, line, and sinker everytime...

I sense an insecurity issue.....seems like you don't appreciate having your opinion debated....on anything....

Snap out of it fella....that's what us *******s do in here....

If you just want off the hook...all you have to do is what you're asking me to do.....STOP REPLYING......when you start paying my internet bill...then perhaps you can instruct me on when I'm to stop posting....

BTW...my track record on drafting quarterbacks would be better than Dungy's or Gruden's....:lol:

See you around....

post deleted

TedSlimmJr
12-10-2009, 12:30 PM
Is that iggy not working for you or were you just attempting to spout off again?

You're a real gem....Jim...:lol:

jim1
12-10-2009, 12:41 PM
Is that iggy not working for you or were you just attempting to spout off again?

You're a real gem....Jim...:lol:


post deleted

MP-Omnis
12-10-2009, 05:09 PM
Tebow didn't win very well against 'Bama.

Spesh
12-10-2009, 05:51 PM
KC Joyner's analysis on ESPN:



http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=4724185

Ouch. Still think he goes in the first round

Love it, ive been waiting for the day when scouts start ripping Tebow apart.

Especially loved the:
"The Football Scientist lab result: The most apt comparison for Tebow is the Michael Vick of a few years ago.....
"Unfortunately for Tebow, he lacks Vick's speed, and that is what allowed Vick to succeed in the NFL despite his lack of pocket-passer development."

Cracked me up, thats like saying "Yeah, this kid is like Dan Marino, just without the arm."

jim1
12-10-2009, 06:34 PM
Love it, ive been waiting for the day when scouts start ripping Tebow apart.

Especially loved the:
"The Football Scientist lab result: The most apt comparison for Tebow is the Michael Vick of a few years ago.....
"Unfortunately for Tebow, he lacks Vick's speed, and that is what allowed Vick to succeed in the NFL despite his lack of pocket-passer development."

Cracked me up, thats like saying "Yeah, this kid is like Dan Marino, just without the arm."

Some scouts have been ripping him apart for some time now, and some like him. Phil Simms came out with some pretty harsh commentary, and I think that he's one of the best analysts out there.

I still think that his arm is better than advertised, granted the delivery is a bit awkward. Time will tell, bottom line. I've seen him make the throws that he'll have to make at the next level. If he gets past Jacksonville, regardless of their motivations if they select him, I don't think that he'll get past Minnesota. For all the negativity out there, the poll of scouts had him averaging out at what, 33rd or 34th pick? He must be doing something right.

Spesh
12-10-2009, 08:56 PM
Some scouts have been ripping him apart for some time now, and some like him. Phil Simms came out with some pretty harsh commentary, and I think that he's one of the best analysts out there.

I still think that his arm is better than advertised, granted the delivery is a bit awkward. Time will tell, bottom line. I've seen him make the throws that he'll have to make at the next level. If he gets past Jacksonville, regardless of their motivations if they select him, I don't think that he'll get past Minnesota. For all the negativity out there, the poll of scouts had him averaging out at what, 33rd or 34th pick? He must be doing something right.

I misspoke, what i meant to declare was "Ive been waiting for the day scouts start ripping Tebow apart right before the draft."
From my understanding, MOST scouts have been ripping him apart and dont feel he has NFL ability at the QB position, and as it their job to judge if potential players are NFL worthy, i would tend to take their concerns over Tebow seriously...especially since most of the concerns about him are about his throwing ability. But this thread has mostly been over that, so ill try and stay on new areas.

It should be worth pointing out that while youve used Jon Gruden as an example of someone who loves Tebow, aside the fact part of the reason why Gruden was fired was because he never had stability at the QB position, Jon has developed a fascination of the Wildcat and Spread:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-presents/09000d5d81341302/Gruden-s-gridiron
(1:50, talks about his expectation of throwing attacks out of wildcat at 2:20)

While i started to skim over posts as soon as you Jim started cursing at people, so im not sure if this has been raised, i would like to say if i was in the front office of a team looking to draft him i would look at his toughness. And no, not physical. While Tony Dungy(another coach that was fired because he never made an offense) finds it endearing, i have serious concerns over his supposed sheltered lifestyle. Granted, he had little control over that, yet i have to question what will happen when he runs into the Joey Porters or Warren Sapps of the game glaring across the line at him. And while some find it cute that he's so "passionate" i find it rediculous when he...well....
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n31/psyc007/TimTebowCrying.jpg

I want a QB that when something goes wrong, say he overthrows a fullback on 3rd down with the game on the line, he shakes it off and drills a laser strike into his receiver the next play(shameless Henne plug).
If your want to stick with the fact that the Vikings or Jaguars might draft him, you might want to check out there recent history concerning drafting "franchise" Qb's.

MiamiDolfan85
12-10-2009, 09:01 PM
Florida quarterback Tim Tebow will be drafted higher than a lot of people think. But Tony Dungy takes that one further: Tebow's going to be a Top Five pick, as he said on Dan Patrick's radio show (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/blog/84261/index.html?eref=sihp target=).

From the show's notes: "Dungy also had interesting comments on Tim Tebow. Dungy loves winners. He thinks Charlie Ward would have been a great NFL quarterback because he won at every level. Dungy said that Tebow is like that. He just wins, and that will translate to the NFL."
One thing that will help Tebow and probably factors into Dungy's thinking: Tampa Bay will have a Top 5 pick and might take Tebow for his box-office appeal as much as on-field talent. Jacksonville will have a high pick, too, and its owner is already on record saying that.

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2009/11/_1_sometimes_things_dont.html
top 5 pick....in what round?:confused:

jim1
12-11-2009, 04:23 AM
I misspoke, what i meant to declare was "Ive been waiting for the day scouts start ripping Tebow apart right before the draft."
From my understanding, MOST scouts have been ripping him apart and dont feel he has NFL ability at the QB position, and as it their job to judge if potential players are NFL worthy, i would tend to take their concerns over Tebow seriously...especially since most of the concerns about him are about his throwing ability. But this thread has mostly been over that, so ill try and stay on new areas.

It should be worth pointing out that while youve used Jon Gruden as an example of someone who loves Tebow, aside the fact part of the reason why Gruden was fired was because he never had stability at the QB position, Jon has developed a fascination of the Wildcat and Spread:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-presents/09000d5d81341302/Gruden-s-gridiron
(1:50, talks about his expectation of throwing attacks out of wildcat at 2:20)

While i started to skim over posts as soon as you Jim started cursing at people, so im not sure if this has been raised, i would like to say if i was in the front office of a team looking to draft him i would look at his toughness. And no, not physical. While Tony Dungy(another coach that was fired because he never made an offense) finds it endearing, i have serious concerns over his supposed sheltered lifestyle. Granted, he had little control over that, yet i have to question what will happen when he runs into the Joey Porters or Warren Sapps of the game glaring across the line at him. And while some find it cute that he's so "passionate" i find it rediculous when he...well....
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n31/psyc007/TimTebowCrying.jpg

I want a QB that when something goes wrong, say he overthrows a fullback on 3rd down with the game on the line, he shakes it off and drills a laser strike into his receiver the next play(shameless Henne plug).
If your want to stick with the fact that the Vikings or Jaguars might draft him, you might want to check out there recent history concerning drafting "franchise" Qb's.

You lost me with the final two paragraphs. So he cried after a loss, big deal. He's been a fiery team leader and he cried after a big loss- have any more cheap shots to take? That's pretty weak. Is crying after a big win a sin, too, a la Michael Jordan? Let's not verge into the absurd in terms of criticism, I'd say that you're pushing it here. Your last sentence is a head scratcher- Jax might take him for obvious reasons- need of a QB and a marketing ploy- and Minnesota needs and heir to Favre. They need someone to manage the game and not lose games a la Tavaris Jackson. Plenty of talent of that team to not put the load on Tebow, and they can do quite a bit with Tebow and Harvin reunited if it happens. And if they were willing to spend a 2nd on Jackson hell yes they'll spend a late 1st on Tebow.

As to your post in general, once again I find myself defending Tebow- which I'm tired of doing- and your whole "crying" argument is lame imo. And as to the scouts- again, in a recent pole of scouts he was predicted on average to go 33rd or 34th overall iirc, maybe a bit higher. Minnesota will end up picking around 30th. So maybe you should look again at what the scouts are saying, it seems to me that I'm closer to their projections than you are. The time that I wasted in this response is a reminder of why I regret starting this thread in the first place. We'll see where he ends up getting drafted and how his career goes. End of story.

Spesh
12-11-2009, 06:38 PM
You lost me with the final two paragraphs. So he cried after a loss, big deal. He's been a fiery team leader and he cried after a big loss- have any more cheap shots to take? That's pretty weak. Is crying after a big win a sin, too, a la Michael Jordan? Let's not verge into the absurd in terms of criticism, I'd say that you're pushing it here. Your last sentence is a head scratcher- Jax might take him for obvious reasons- need of a QB and a marketing ploy- and Minnesota needs and heir to Favre. They need someone to manage the game and not lose games a la Tavaris Jackson. Plenty of talent of that team to not put the load on Tebow, and they can do quite a bit with Tebow and Harvin reunited if it happens. And if they were willing to spend a 2nd on Jackson hell yes they'll spend a late 1st on Tebow.

As to your post in general, once again I find myself defending Tebow- which I'm tired of doing- and your whole "crying" argument is lame imo. And as to the scouts- again, in a recent pole of scouts he was predicted on average to go 33rd or 34th overall iirc, maybe a bit higher. Minnesota will end up picking around 30th. So maybe you should look again at what the scouts are saying, it seems to me that I'm closer to their projections than you are. The time that I wasted in this response is a reminder of why I regret starting this thread in the first place. We'll see where he ends up getting drafted and how his career goes. End of story.

If all i had was stubborness and some absurd positional rating, and i was faced logic and reasoning, i to would get tired of defending the player i like.
Right now, im not sure i follow your reasoning, it is a good pick because Minnesota or Jacksonville will take him in the first round around the area of overall talent he was scouted at? With that logic, Vernon Gholston was a great pick because he was considered talented enough to go high overall and the Jets took him with a high draft pick.
Not once did i suggest he wasnt going in the first/second round, what i did suggest was i support what others were saying(that scouts are ripping apart his throwing mechanics) but decided not to kick that dead horse, and suggest that Minnesota and Jacksonville havent been the best judges of character concerning QB's, so why would you take comfort in them drafting Tebow?
First you used Dungy and Gruden's comments to defend your position(both were fired for offensive reasons) and now your turning to Minnesota and Jacksonville support you now....when both have drafted busts at that position. Its like your collecting all the people who have utterly failed at their jobs and using them to defend your argument, it just makes no sense.

You look at it as bashing him because he was crying, and in a fashion i was, yet you completely ignore the fact that a starting QB in the NFL has to be able to stand up to adversity. I suggested his sheltered lifestyle was a concern, and while i certainly dont fault him for having a stable life, i question his toughness when he folds in the face of true competition and falls apart after a game. Against Tennessee he might as well had "property of Monte Kiffen" tatoo'd on his forehead and against Alabama he had every chance to stand up to the challenge and instead he was seen screaming at teammates and sobbing.
A NFL QB is someone who bounces back after a bad play(or defeat), thats how he gains the confidence of his teammates and coaches. Im not inspired by his "passion" so far.

jim1
12-11-2009, 07:19 PM
If all i had was stubborness and some absurd positional rating, and i was faced logic and reasoning, i to would get tired of defending the player i like.
Right now, im not sure i follow your reasoning, it is a good pick because Minnesota or Jacksonville will take him in the first round around the area of overall talent he was scouted at? With that logic, Vernon Gholston was a great pick because he was considered talented enough to go high overall and the Jets took him with a high draft pick.
Not once did i suggest he wasnt going in the first/second round, what i did suggest was i support what others were saying(that scouts are ripping apart his throwing mechanics) but decided not to kick that dead horse, and suggest that Minnesota and Jacksonville havent been the best judges of character concerning QB's, so why would you take comfort in them drafting Tebow?
First you used Dungy and Gruden's comments to defend your position(both were fired for offensive reasons) and now your turning to Minnesota and Jacksonville support you now....when both have drafted busts at that position. Its like your collecting all the people who have utterly failed at their jobs and using them to defend your argument, it just makes no sense.

You look at it as bashing him because he was crying, and in a fashion i was, yet you completely ignore the fact that a starting QB in the NFL has to be able to stand up to adversity. I suggested his sheltered lifestyle was a concern, and while i certainly dont fault him for having a stable life, i question his toughness when he folds in the face of true competition and falls apart after a game. Against Tennessee he might as well had "property of Monte Kiffen" tatoo'd on his forehead and against Alabama he had every chance to stand up to the challenge and instead he was seen screaming at teammates and sobbing.
A NFL QB is someone who bounces back after a bad play(or defeat), thats how he gains the confidence of his teammates and coaches. Im not inspired by his "passion" so far.

Whatever. We'll see where he's drafted.

Spesh
12-11-2009, 08:17 PM
Whatever. We'll see where he's drafted.

"Not once did i suggest he wasnt going in the first/second round"

"Right now, im not sure i follow your reasoning, it is a good pick because Minnesota or Jacksonville will take him in the first round around the area of overall talent he was scouted at? With that logic, Vernon Gholston was a great pick because he was considered talented enough to go high overall and the Jets took him with a high draft pick."

Basic english aside, if and when he gets drafted high i have little doubt you will find that as some validation and really show the rest of us. I mean, its know by all that being taken in the first round immediately makes you a non-bust.

zodiak
12-11-2009, 11:34 PM
When Dungy makes a statement like this its clear to me why he couldnt win in Tampa he doesnt (in fact if he believes that statement is "clueless) understand whats required to win offensively in the NFL.

I think he made that comment with the knowledge that Jaxville will draft Tebow, I dont know if he feels Tebow is worthy of being a 1st rnd pick.
Whats concerns me most about Dungy's comment is calling Tebow a winner well lets see just players from the state of florida that won big:

Chris Wienke, Ken Dorsey & Danny Wuerfull there got one from each school all three of those QB's won and won alot no they didnt "all" win the Hiesman but c'mon you know the voters feel for that do gooder act of Tebow's so whatever the partys over he will IMO get drafted and yes higher than he should and he will be given a chance so thats that.

However he cant play at a high level but even at that him just playing will be enough for some to say told you so.

jim1
12-12-2009, 12:03 AM
"Not once did i suggest he wasnt going in the first/second round"

"Right now, im not sure i follow your reasoning, it is a good pick because Minnesota or Jacksonville will take him in the first round around the area of overall talent he was scouted at? With that logic, Vernon Gholston was a great pick because he was considered talented enough to go high overall and the Jets took him with a high draft pick."

Basic english aside, if and when he gets drafted high i have little doubt you will find that as some validation and really show the rest of us. I mean, its know by all that being taken in the first round immediately makes you a non-bust.

Well, here's the reasoning: I acknowledged that if Jax takes him part of it could be for marketing purposes. If the Vikes take him it will be for cause. Not complicated- Favre isn't getting any younger.

jim1
12-12-2009, 12:05 AM
When Dungy makes a statement like this its clear to me why he couldnt win in Tampa he doesnt (in fact if he believes that statement is "clueless) understand whats required to win offensively in the NFL.

I think he made that comment with the knowledge that Jaxville will draft Tebow, I dont know if he feels Tebow is worthy of being a 1st rnd pick.
Whats concerns me most about Dungy's comment is calling Tebow a winner well lets see just players from the state of florida that won big:

Chris Wienke, Ken Dorsey & Danny Wuerfull there got one from each school all three of those QB's won and won alot no they didnt "all" win the Hiesman but c'mon you know the voters feel for that do gooder act of Tebow's so whatever the partys over he will IMO get drafted and yes higher than he should and he will be given a chance so thats that.

However he cant play at a high level but even at that him just playing will be enough for some to say told you so.

Dorsey had a so-so arm and was awfully frail. Wuerfell had a weak arm and one of the worst deliveries I've ever seen. Weinke missed about five years because of baseball iirc. Bad examples. Again, we'll see where he's drafted and how his career goes. For the second year in a row, this subject has been beaten to a pulp.