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jim1
11-09-2009, 11:39 AM
From David Hyde's blog- I still think that Benn is logical::

2. On Mel Kiper's Big Board (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=4622364), two receivers crack the first round: Dez Bryant (spelling corrected), suspended from Oklahoma State, and Illinois' Arrelious Benn. Looks like Benn will be the top option here, as Bryant is expected to go the 10th pick.
Benn has the size (6-2, 220) that Dolphins want. Plus, they can get a good scouting reporter from Vontae Davis about him.
After that? Kiper's top five senior receivers are:
1. Mardy Gilyard (6-1, 180) of Cincinnati.
2. Brandon LaFell (6-3, 206) of LSU.
3. Jordan Shipley (6-1, 190) of Texas.
4. Dexter McCluster (5-8, 165) of Mississippi.
5. Erick Decker (6-2, 215) of Minnesota.

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2009/11/_1_no_surprise_here.html

Chubby
11-09-2009, 12:35 PM
I want a receiver that is 6-5 runs a 4.3 and has the softest hands ever. I want him to be the most agressive reciever ever to line up in the NFL. :):):)
So please make it happen thanks :)
Chubbs

MP-Omnis
11-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Yeah our receiver needs to squat at least 600 pounds raw and be 7 feet tall so he can power through people. I'm liking Benn or LaFell though.

Ricky_Fan34
11-09-2009, 02:07 PM
I'd just like someone who can catch a damn ball! These players are getting paid millions to PLAY a game. It's ridiculous when your recievers can't catch a ball when they have 2 hands on it.

#1dolphinsfan
11-09-2009, 02:08 PM
if we cant get McClain in the first round i want eather D. Bryant or A. Benn

SnakeoilSeller
11-09-2009, 05:31 PM
What about Damian Williams from USC?

FINFAN15
11-09-2009, 06:09 PM
Please stay away any Receivers from USC All busts Mike Williams, Johnny Morton,Curtis Conway,Rj Soward,even Keyshawn was average for a top draft pick.Jury is still out on Steve Smith.Also stay away from Florida Gator receivers as well Reidel Anthony, Jaquez Green,Chad Jackson,Travis Taylor,Jabar Gaffney,Reche Caldwell last Ike Hilliard was average Jury still out on Percy Harvin

Dogbone34
11-09-2009, 06:23 PM
What about Damian Williams from USC?

Williams has looked decent to me. He plays smooth with good yac.

He's still from SC so buyer beware.

Valandui
11-09-2009, 07:31 PM
Williams has looked decent to me. He plays smooth with good yac.

He's still from SC so buyer beware.
Their smaller receivers have been pretty decent. Look at Steve Smith from the Giants.

Valandui
11-09-2009, 07:33 PM
Benn is my favorite out of this class, but I also like Decker from Minnesota a lot. I also wouldn't mind going after Hernandez, the TE from Florida.

MAdolfan
11-09-2009, 08:22 PM
have you seen gilyard from cincinatti? dude is gonna be a baller. Quick and runs great routes

MadDog 88
11-09-2009, 09:47 PM
Brandon LaFell from LSU has what Parcells looks for in players, plus he is fast enough to stretch the field, something Dez Bryant can't do. LaFell runs great routes, sinks his hips well and has a powerful burst out of it to create seperation. He also can actually catch the ball, something the WRs are having trouble with. He's physical and a solid blocker.

This guy fits a Parcells type player to a T. Has been compared in ability to Boldin.

MadDog 88
11-09-2009, 09:49 PM
if we cant get McClain in the first round i want eather D. Bryant or A. Benn
Bryant can't stretch the field which is going to be a critical aspect of the WR they draft. Taking Ginn off the field means that his speed needs to be replaced. LaFell, though not as quick as Ginn, is faster then Bryant and can stretch the field.

jim1
11-10-2009, 05:26 AM
Brandon LaFell from LSU has what Parcells looks for in players, plus he is fast enough to stretch the field, something Dez Bryant can't do. LaFell runs great routes, sinks his hips well and has a powerful burst out of it to create seperation. He also can actually catch the ball, something the WRs are having trouble with. He's physical and a solid blocker.

This guy fits a Parcells type player to a T. Has been compared in ability to Boldin.

I want to believe in Lafell and I hope that I end up doing so. He's referred to as a Bowe clone, but I haven't seen it. As I want Miami (if the situation warrants it) to draft a WR very early, I'm hoping that I'll be impressed with Lafell in the remainder of the season, the combine, and the Senior Bowl. What I'm particularly looking for is explosion- maybe I've just missed it when I've seen LSU play, but I haven't seen enough of it out of him yet.

jim1
11-10-2009, 05:32 AM
Bryant can't stretch the field which is going to be a critical aspect of the WR they draft. Taking Ginn off the field means that his speed needs to be replaced. LaFell, though not as quick as Ginn, is faster then Bryant and can stretch the field.

I don't think you can take Lafell over Bryant. Bryant is a freaking monster. I was debating Benn/Bryant knowing all along that 2 numbers were at play here: 4.4 vs. 4.55. Same argument though- Rice, Irvin, Boldin. Not the fastest guys, but physical and explosive out of cuts? Jerry Ricwe- ran what, a 4.7? But I saw some practice film of him out of cuts- wow, seriously impressive. Bryant has pretty much everything you want except 4.4 speed- leaping ability, quickness, size, strength, hands. And the dude is by no means slow, he's just not a pure burner. Good luck covering him one on one. But he'll most likely be gone before we pick. Which brings me to- Benn. I hope that I'm underestimating Lafell- I want him to be a legitimate option for us in the 1st.

Oraclepz
11-10-2009, 08:51 AM
Decker is the guy that intrigues me....

RealDriscoll
11-10-2009, 09:47 AM
Due to the CBA I feel a lot of Juniors will declare to get paid before it's too late so keep an eye on Golden Tate of Notre Dame, Dezmon Briscoe of Kansas, Demryius Thoms of Georgia Tech, and I didn't see Damien Williams of USC on that list. That guy is a 1st Rounder without question

j-off-her-doll
11-10-2009, 01:14 PM
Bryant runs with the aggression that T. Owens ran with 4 years ago. He's like a faster Boldin.

j-off-her-doll
11-10-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm also high on Lafell. If we don't pick up a FA WR, I'd love to see us be very aggressive and do our best to get 2 of the these 3:

Bryant
Benn
Lafell

dahlmarino
11-11-2009, 03:01 AM
I love Bryant, but unless we're top 7-10, which I still dont think is likely, we wont get him. Ive seen Benn drop way too many easy ones. I like LaFell, but I havent seen a whole lot of him. If Tate declares that could be intriguing ( I usually hate Golden Domers, but he seems legit so far). Right now Im not so much worried about a #1 WR as I am a WR who can hold on to the ball, so if one of these guys doesn't fall to us in the first, I think we'd be better off filling another void (McClain? Spikes? Cody?) and getting a reliable hands guy like Blair White out of Michigan State in the 3-4 round area.

jim1
11-11-2009, 07:56 AM
I love Bryant, but unless we're top 7-10, which I still dont think is likely, we wont get him. Ive seen Benn drop way too many easy ones. I like LaFell, but I havent seen a whole lot of him. If Tate declares that could be intriguing ( I usually hate Golden Domers, but he seems legit so far). Right now Im not so much worried about a #1 WR as I am a WR who can hold on to the ball, so if one of these guys doesn't fall to us in the first, I think we'd be better off filling another void (McClain? Spikes? Cody?) and getting a reliable hands guy like Blair White out of Michigan State in the 3-4 round area.

Interesting comment about Benn, I haven't seen the drops. Re: #1 WR, I respectfully disagree. Bess, Hartline and Camarillo can catch the ball, just a bad couple of weeks. Ginn- forget about it. Patty cake central. But these guys need the #1 to show up so they can organically fall in line, go to their natural supporting cast roles. Everything is out of balance until then. If we can go the FA route, that's fine with me. But the lead dog has to be brought in for this to work.

As to the Ginn/deep threat points of view- seriously, I'd rather see us bring back Todd Lowber or Anthony Armstrong for NFL minimum salary if you want a tremendously fast guy with questionable hands out wide to keep defenses honest. And I'm all for seeing what Patrick Turner can do.

dahlmarino
11-11-2009, 06:03 PM
Interesting comment about Benn, I haven't seen the drops. Re: #1 WR, I respectfully disagree. Bess, Hartline and Camarillo can catch the ball, just a bad couple of weeks. Ginn- forget about it. Patty cake central. But these guys need the #1 to show up so they can organically fall in line, go to their natural supporting cast roles. Everything is out of balance until then. If we can go the FA route, that's fine with me. But the lead dog has to be brought in for this to work.

As to the Ginn/deep threat points of view- seriously, I'd rather see us bring back Todd Lowber or Anthony Armstrong for NFL minimum salary if you want a tremendously fast guy with questionable hands out wide to keep defenses honest. And I'm all for seeing what Patrick Turner can do.

Im in Big Ten country, so I've had a lot of chances to view Illinois. Ive seen Juice throw a lot of very catchable balls downfield to Benn only to have them bounce off his hands. Ive also seen him make some really good catches, but the easy drops really stand out, and I dont think they'd improve at the next level. And while I would LOVE a true #1, and Im not discounting the need for 1, I just dont think reaching for a guy with all the physical tools and no hands/concentration will do anything but set us back even further. And I absolutely love Bess, but Im getting increasingly frustrated with this skid he's on. He was reliable with Pennington, but Henne throws a much faster ball, and I'd still like to see those reliable hands adjust. Therefore, it wouldn't hurt to nab a guy like White, who is tough, can catch rifles and runs good routes if we cant get one of the true #1's at our draft position. That way, even if H-Line, Bess and Camarillo get back on track, we have another option who would be reliable.

AdamC13
11-11-2009, 06:51 PM
Please stay away any Receivers from USC All busts Mike Williams, Johnny Morton,Curtis Conway,Rj Soward,even Keyshawn was average for a top draft pick.Jury is still out on Steve Smith.Also stay away from Florida Gator receivers as well Reidel Anthony, Jaquez Green,Chad Jackson,Travis Taylor,Jabar Gaffney,Reche Caldwell last Ike Hilliard was average Jury still out on Percy Harvin

Good news...the jury just came back with a verdict and that is Steve Smith has turned into one of the top WRs in the game and Percy Harvin is the real deal.

AphexPhin
11-12-2009, 04:56 PM
Benn is the REAL DEAL.

I am an Illini fan and believe me he is flat out awesome. Dont let his subpar stats fool you. He has terrible coaching and bad QB play at Illinois. Its very frustrating.

It would be awesome if he landed in our lap!

NRA
11-12-2009, 06:21 PM
i like MARTY GILYARD a lot!!

i agree, that guy IS a baller and will be a great pro, just like
julio jones from alabama.

BRANDON LAFELL is really growing on me. i have tivo'd the last 3 lsu games
and studied him and he really does look like an nfl wr.

but between bryant, benn, lafell, gilyard, golden tate, shipley, i dont care, as long as
they draft a couple and GET THEM ON THE FIELD!!! no more fat o-linemen or dt's or
lb,s. this team needs POINTS, and points cover over a lot of evils.

lets due some scoring while we are waiting around to have that 10 points a game
defense built.

FinaticalOne
11-12-2009, 07:41 PM
I want a receiver that is 6-5 runs a 4.3 and has the softest hands ever. I want him to be the most agressive reciever ever to line up in the NFL. :):):)
So please make it happen thanks :)
Chubbs

You're looking for a rare specimen, but I would love that. I just want someone who can make the tough catch, and is a beast in the YAC category as well.

They don't have to be 6-5 and run a 4.3, I want a CLUTCH wide receiver.

hooshoops
11-15-2009, 10:34 AM
what the heck...who said bryant can't stretch the field??? that makes no sense.

damien williams a first rounder??? no chance stay away

houtz
11-15-2009, 10:26 PM
Bryant
Benn
Lafell
Decker
Tate

Get any one of those players and I'll be happy. Bryant/Benn and Tate would be a pipe dream.

finfaninmo
11-16-2009, 08:36 PM
Another one to keep an eye on might be Denario Alexander from Missouri 6'5 215

He has 81 receptions, 1238 yards, 15.3 yards per catch and 11 TD's

jim1
11-17-2009, 02:48 PM
I think that we can add Demaryius Thomas to the list.

ghostface95
11-19-2009, 06:17 PM
Arrelious Benn has struggled with injuries this season as well so that's why his numbers don't exactly jump out at you.

But let's not dare ignore his stats from his Freshman and Sophomore seasons as well.

Me being a homer from the DC area I've had the privilege of watching Vernon Davis, Vontae Davis, Marvin Austin (NT from UNC we should get him), Joshua Cribbs, Nathan Bussey (currently playing at Illinois) all play in high school since all of them attended the same high school which was Dunbar (Washington, DC) and when they played for Dunbar their teams won the City Title in Football for 4 years consecutively.

I hope Bryant slides although I seriously doubt it but if he's still available when we pick I can see him having a chip on his shoulder a la Randy Moss in the '98' Draft and we would be fools to pass on him.

As much as I'd love for McClain to be roaming from sideline to sideline at the Mike position for the Fins in '10'; I wouldn't be upset if we snagged Micah Johnson, Eric Norwood (convert him to MLB), or Joe Pawelek (hidden gem from Baylor) instead.

jim1
11-20-2009, 01:51 PM
Arrelious Benn has struggled with injuries this season as well so that's why his numbers don't exactly jump out at you.

But let's not dare ignore his stats from his Freshman and Sophomore seasons as well.

Me being a homer from the DC area I've had the privilege of watching Vernon Davis, Vontae Davis, Marvin Austin (NT from UNC we should get him), Joshua Cribbs, Nathan Bussey (currently playing at Illinois) all play in high school since all of them attended the same high school which was Dunbar (Washington, DC) and when they played for Dunbar their teams won the City Title in Football for 4 years consecutively.

I hope Bryant slides although I seriously doubt it but if he's still available when we pick I can see him having a chip on his shoulder a la Randy Moss in the '98' Draft and we would be fools to pass on him.

As much as I'd love for McClain to be roaming from sideline to sideline at the Mike position for the Fins in '10'; I wouldn't be upset if we snagged Micah Johnson, Eric Norwood (convert him to MLB), or Joe Pawelek (hidden gem from Baylor) instead.

After watching the Panthers game last night, and especially since rumor has it that Ferguson tore his ACL, you'd have to think that they'll look for a guy in the interior triangle NT/ILB/ILB. It would be great to have a guy like Vilma or Beason plugging those running holes quickly, we're just not all that good at it. That being said, I keep going back to Arrelious Benn.

I saw some clips of Gilyard on another site- granted, you can see only so much from a few plays and your opinion based on those clips and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee. Great hands and he does everything well- the fact of the matter is that I'd need to see more and find out if maybe he is a little more explosive than my initial assessment/snap judgement indicated.

But Ferguson's knee injury aside, there's Benn in my thought proccess as always, kind of like Harvin last year but not as bad. Maybe to a fault I'm looking for a profile to be filled and this is what I see:

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/11/ArreliousBenn_003-1.jpg

Take this body, 4.4-4.45 speed, great stats 1st 2 years, lousy coaching and QB play this year and the ability to run with the ball well and you have in one player what the Dolphins need at WR. As I've said before the Illinois offense blows so badly that it's frustrating watching them play and waiting for Benn to do something. There are questions about his hands and I'm really looking forward to seeing how he catches and what kind of explosion he shows against top competition at the Senior Bowl. So if he comes out-and I hope he does- where does he go? Top 15? Top 25? Slides to the 2nd round? Where does Gilyard go? Late 1st? Mid 2nd? Golden Tate, Denario Alexander, Demaryius Thomas?- who knows, probably second round. Do you take an overweight Terrence Cody in the 1st? What round does NT Dan Williams go in? 2 WRs in the 1st 4 rounds would suit me fine, and yes it may indeed be overkill. Dan Williams just seems to fit the profile and playing style of what we want/need at NT. It will be interesting to see if we take Brandon Spikes if he's available in the 1st- dude has talent, no doubt. But for all I hear that Benn's stock is going down, I cannot get it out of my head that he's right up our alley.

DOC33
11-20-2009, 01:53 PM
Danaro Alexander from MISSU is the player that everyone is missing out on and would fit the profile that seems to be the new rage in the NFL he is 6-4 215. He is not a speed demon but should run in the 4.5 range. He has had a couple of knee issues which will scare some teams and more than likely the fins off but today he is the best WR in the country. He was not widely talked about last year because Maclin was taking all of the headlines.

By the way Decker is a Hartline/Camarillo clone why would we want him. Lafell has dropped more passes this year than he has caught and is very raw. Probably 2-3 years off from contributing and LSU WR's have been disappointing at the NFL level with the exception of Bowe. Gilyard has a very small frame and will have trouble developing the strength to defeat press at the LOS.

jim1
11-20-2009, 02:01 PM
Danaro Alexander from MISSU is the player that everyone is missing out on and would fit the profile that seems to be the new rage in the NFL he is 6-4 215. He is not a speed demon but should run in the 4.5 range. He has had a couple of knee issues which will scare some teams and more than likely the fins off but today he is the best WR in the country. He was not widely talked about last year because Maclin was taking all of the headlines.

By the way Decker is a Hartline/Camarillo clone why would we want him. Lafell has dropped more passes this year than he has caught and is very raw. Probably 2-3 years off from contributing and LSU WR's have been disappointing at the NFL level with the exception of Bowe. Gilyard has a very small frame and will have trouble developing the strength to defeat press at the LOS.

I've seen enough of Decker to agree. It crossed my mind a few weeks ago to watch Alexander and I missed his offensive explosion. Lafell has been the most frustrating for me in terms of getting a read on him. Gilyard- I've seen just clips but I don't really see why he wouldn't be able to beat the press. Ted Ginn can beat the press and 6-5 225 lb Patrick Turner can't- go figure.

Worth noting- the site where I got the Benn photo has Gilyard #15 overall, Benn #63. Seems high for Gilyard and low for Benn, but who knows. I'm going to make an effort to watch a Cincinnatti game this year if possible and LSU, too. I've seen LSU but whiffed on Lafell. Actually to be specific about it, I saw some Lafell but I wasn't crazy about what I saw, I need to see more.

http://www.nfldraftgeek.com/rankings.html

p.s. I think that it's fair to say that Mike Williams has some athletic ability:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6chghl-g0N8

Kind of bums me out I never saw this guy play. Any Syracuse fans out there with some feedback?

ghostface95
11-21-2009, 05:40 PM
and Arrelious Benn attended Dunbar as well as the others I mentioned in my previous post above

ccb
11-22-2009, 01:01 PM
if we could some how snag lafell in the second and get a ilb in the first i'd be all for it!

skipp2myloo13
11-22-2009, 03:18 PM
Im a big LSU fan and trust me dont get Lafell. He isnt garb but he isnt anything special. He isnt better than what we have, would be a true waste IMO. Tate is the best receiver for us IMO. Small, physical WR. Catches everything. YAC machine and can run like a FB/RB. He can be used in every formation and be Steve Smith 2.0 (Car)

houtz
11-22-2009, 04:28 PM
Im a big LSU fan and trust me dont get Lafell. He isnt garb but he isnt anything special. He isnt better than what we have, would be a true waste IMO. Tate is the best receiver for us IMO. Small, physical WR. Catches everything. YAC machine and can run like a FB/RB. He can be used in every formation and be Steve Smith 2.0 (Car)

A lot of "experts" say he's a better Dwayne Bowe. We have NO ONE on our team that's anywhere near Dwayne Bowe.

Bryant/Benn/Lafell and Tate would be a dream come true.

SF Dolphin Fan
11-22-2009, 08:23 PM
I want to believe in Lafell and I hope that I end up doing so. He's referred to as a Bowe clone, but I haven't seen it. As I want Miami (if the situation warrants it) to draft a WR very early, I'm hoping that I'll be impressed with Lafell in the remainder of the season, the combine, and the Senior Bowl. What I'm particularly looking for is explosion- maybe I've just missed it when I've seen LSU play, but I haven't seen enough of it out of him yet.

I agree. I mean the guy is tremendously productive in the SEC, which is saying a lot. But he doesn't strike me as an elite talent at all.

jim1
11-22-2009, 09:05 PM
Im a big LSU fan and trust me dont get Lafell. He isnt garb but he isnt anything special. He isnt better than what we have, would be a true waste IMO. Tate is the best receiver for us IMO. Small, physical WR. Catches everything. YAC machine and can run like a FB/RB. He can be used in every formation and be Steve Smith 2.0 (Car)

The best thing that I saw out of Lafell yesterday was his hands on that onside kick recovery. I keep expecting something from him and never get it. Tate- I see explosion, yards after catch, kick return ability. I'm focused on explosion and dominating size and strength. And that's because we have so little of that on our WR core. Tate makes the cut, I'd say yes on Gilyard but that's half assed because I've only seen highlights. Lafell- no. I heard a lot about Williams from Syracuse- I have to admit that seeing a guy at 6-2 pull off some trick slam dunks with his elbow at rim's height has me intrigued. That indicated serious explosion to me. He has the stats- now if I would only see him play... Still thinking Benn and developing a sweet tooth for Demaryious Thomas.

p.s. not a big fan of Dexter MClouster (sp?), I think he'll turn out to be more of a Garrett Wolfe than Darren Sproles. Speaking of Ole Miss, they have a wide body DT that looks like he fits the part- run stuffer who moves pretty well. Still intrigued by Shay Hodge, reminds me a little of Sidney Rice. I don't see either one as terribly explosive, but Rice turned it on this year and I see potential in Hodge- good wheels, good frame, I'm not sure about his hands, though. And I still like Jevan Snead more than most- dude his having a bad year, but I still think that he can make a good pro. Good size, compact delivery, strong arm, looks pretty accurate to me, although his stats and reputation this year say otherwise. I've seen some of his balls dropped, Hodges a culprit. Decision making- he has something to prove there. Two early votes for rookie busts of the year- Carlos Dunlap and Jimmy Claussen. As per Dunlap- Al Davis special. Big and fast. How about a little production there, Mr. Dunlap? I keep thinking that Claussen is going to leave the pass happy Notre Dame offense and get killed in the pros. I'm not exactly sure why-probably still tainted from seeing him earlier in his career- but I think that he'll be a top 10-15 pick and not transition well. Tate- he'll be fine. Final thought that just came to me- Tebow doesn't look nearly as good this year- I wonder if it's a lingering concussion or how much Harvin and Murphy being gone are hurting him. I'm not about to do a 180 on him, but the magic just isn't there this year. I still think that the concussion was a turning point. For those of you who haven't experienced one, concussions can be nasty and can linger on for a while.

jim1
11-23-2009, 09:43 AM
A lot of "experts" say he's a better Dwayne Bowe. We have NO ONE on our team that's anywhere near Dwayne Bowe.

Bryant/Benn/Lafell and Tate would be a dream come true.

Well, I've looked for that and I still haven't seen it- I'd take Dwayne Bowe over Lafell in a heartbeat. My unorthodox, and perhaps one could argue crappy, method of trying to find the right receivers for the Dolphins, is to look for the "it' factor. Bowe has it, Lafell- my early vote is no. Bowe is a physical specimen with pretty good speed and he's good out of breaks- my catchword this year is explosion because Miami's WRs are so lacking in that regard. I look at Bowe and I see a combo of Bryant and Benn. I look at Lafell and I see a competent big receiver. And I keep wondering if there's something that I'm missing, because I'm just not seeing it.

jim1
11-23-2009, 09:45 AM
I agree. I mean the guy is tremendously productive in the SEC, which is saying a lot. But he doesn't strike me as an elite talent at all.

9 TDs this year is nice, but I don't know if I would call 635 yards tremendously productive. And my guess is that you're right, he's not an elite talent. Mid to late second round guy imo.

TedSlimmJr
11-23-2009, 10:05 AM
Evaluating talent is not...and never will be an exact science....it's similar to catching criminals...

Law enforcement uses "profilers" to classify certain traits, tendancies, and flaws to paint a picture and put a face on what type of person they're most likely looking for specific to certain crimes....and it's amazing how accurate it is...

Same thing with football players....and since we're talking receivers....there's a certain profile for WR's that don't have good hands or struggles to catch the ball consistently....and that's receivers that get too big and bulky in the upper body (Terrell Owens, Chris Chambers, etc.)....and Benn fits this profile...

Lafell isn't "elite"....but he's better than his stats suggest....his production is held back somewhat by the quarterback position at LSU.....and the fact that the SEC has the best defenses and defensive coordinators that know how to take him away and force a young QB to find other options...

Put him in the Big-10 with a QB like Jimmy Clausen and he'd be putting up Golden Tate type numbers....

Put Tate in the SEC with Jordan Jefferson at quarterback and you're not hearing near as much about him....

jim1
11-23-2009, 10:39 AM
Evaluating talent is not...and never will be an exact science....it's similar to catching criminals...

Law enforcement uses "profilers" to classify certain traits, tendancies, and flaws to paint a picture and put a face on what type of person they're most likely looking for specific to certain crimes....and it's amazing how accurate it is...

Same thing with football players....and since we're talking receivers....there's a certain profile for WR's that don't have good hands or struggles to catch the ball consistently....and that's receivers that get too big and bulky in the upper body (Terrell Owens, Chris Chambers, etc.)....and Benn fits this profile...

Lafell isn't "elite"....but he's better than his stats suggest....his production is held back somewhat by the quarterback position at LSU.....and the fact that the SEC has the best defenses and defensive coordinators that know how to take him away and force a young QB to find other options...

Put him in the Big-10 with a QB like Jimmy Clausen and he'd be putting up Golden Tate type numbers....

Put Tate in the SEC with Jordan Jefferson at quarterback and you're not hearing near as much about him....

I'm not so sure about that thesis. Owens is a long 6-3, 220. I've seen Chambers up close at Dolphins TC- it never would cross my mind that bulk is an issue with him. Dude has some long arms on him. Boldin is bulky, works just fine for me. Benn- we'll see. He's a physical force and fast as well. He's quick and can break tackles and go for yac.

Interesting comment on profiling- that's of what I'm trying to do with the Wrs in a limited sense- Benn fits my profile, and you kind of lost me on the
bulk argument.

TedSlimmJr
11-23-2009, 11:00 AM
I'm not so sure about that thesis. Owens is a long 6-3, 220. I've seen Chambers up close at Dolphins TC- it never would cross my mind that bulk is an issue with him. Dude has some long arms on him. Boldin is bulky, works just fine for me. Benn- we'll see. He's a physical force and fast as well. He's quick and can break tackles and go for yac.

Interesting comment on profiling- that's of what I'm trying to do with the Wrs in a limited sense- Benn fits my profile, and you kind of lost me on the
bulk argument.


Chambers got too bulky in the upper body when he was in college was my point....

TO weighing 220 isn't the point either...it's that most of his bulk is in his upper body....

It affects consistency with the quick twitch muscles in the fingers and hands, etc....

Look at Calvin Johnson...Larry Fitzgerald, etc......they're not as bulky up top....even though they're both big receivers over 220 pounds....the bulk is distributed evenly in the lower body.....same with Boldin....

Just curious....how are you trying to profile your receivers that you think fits specifically what Miami's needs are at the position?

jim1
11-23-2009, 11:29 AM
Chambers got too bulky in the upper body when he was in college was my point....

TO weighing 220 isn't the point either...it's that most of his bulk is in his upper body....

It affects consistency with the quick twitch muscles in the fingers and hands, etc....

Look at Calvin Johnson...Larry Fitzgerald, etc......they're not as bulky up top....even though they're both big receivers over 220 pounds....the bulk is distributed evenly in the lower body.....same with Boldin....

Just curious....how are you trying to profile your receivers that you think fits specifically what Miami's needs are at the position?

Profiling- in my case using the term loosely- meaning that I'm looking for traits in college WRs that I think that the Dolphins desperately need. I look at Tate and I see speed and quickness. Good hands and it's not like the dude is small at 5-11, 195. Good kick retruner. D Thomas- the size that I crave and is a big play machine. The thing is that a guy like DThomas has to separate himself from a Pat Turner. DThomas is getting it done, but he's not the most explosive guy on the planet. Dez Bryant is a dominating beast of a WR with hands and great leaping ability. Benn is a fast, quick, physical force, but that doesn't make him a sure thing- I just happen to like him and see serious talent right where we need it. The guy at USC now runs really good routes and has good hands, pretty average size. I like him, but I'm not really geeked up on him. Gilyard- I can see what people are talking about but looking at a few clips doesn't make me worthy of much of an opinion. Williams from Syracuse- interesting from my perspectvie in terms of profiling. I have never seen the dude play- but you take his speed, size, production and combine it with the sheer athletic explosion on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6chghl-g0N8

Look at what that dude is throwing down at 6-2, my God. I've never seen this guy play, so how can I have an opinion? But in terms of profiling, take the sum of the parts- aformentioned size, speed, production- and add it to this athletic ability- and what you're left with is a problem child who can ball. Maybe this is as close as I come to profiling- the elements are there and I'm going to be very interested to see how high a team will go to take a chance on either greatness or a bust and tremendous headache. If I recall correctly Bill Walsh got even more geeked up about Joe Montana after watching him play basketball- I haven't seen many guys throw down like Williams and it indicates serious lower body explosion that translates on to a football field. So you could say that I'm profiling the guy, but my opinion is jack**** because I haven't seen him play.

TedSlimmJr
11-23-2009, 11:48 AM
So you're looking for lower body explosion? How much significance would you say lower body explosion has to do with run-after-the-catch-ability, for example?

Would you consider Brandon Marshall as explosive? How about Miles Austin? Marques Colston? Greg Jennings?

Would you be looking for the guys who perform the best in the vertical jump and broad jump at the combine?

jim1
11-23-2009, 12:18 PM
So you're looking for lower body explosion? How much significance would you say lower body explosion has to do with run-after-the-catch-ability, for example?

Would you consider Brandon Marshall as explosive? How about Miles Austin? Marques Colston? Greg Jennings?

Would you be looking for the guys who perform the best in the vertical jump and broad jump at the combine?

Miles Austin is explosive. Brandon Marshall has wheels and size, Colston is one of those manimal types who has some explosion but is just a man out there taking his. Jennings has explosion. In terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc., I started a thread about the Fins WR's and draft prospects- wondering what the common threads are in terms of Colston, Austin, Brandon Marshall, etc. I'm not sure, I prefer the eyeball method.

Explosion is this year's term for me in terms of WR's because the Dolphins don't have any. Tate has it, Benn has some to go along with his size and strength. I don't know to what extent it's quantifiable- Hartline had great shuttle #'s- I mean tops- and I look at him in terms of explostion and think, "nope". I saw film of Jerry Rice training- dude ran a 4.7 but he EXPLODED out of cuts. Dwayne Bowe has it. Makes his moves at that size and bam, he's gone. That stuff sticks with me. I have to see the player, I'm not sure that a vertical or broad jump # is going to do it, but it doesn't hurt.

TedSlimmJr
11-23-2009, 12:54 PM
Miles Austin is explosive. Brandon Marshall has wheels and size, Colston is one of those manimal types who has some explosion but is just a man out there taking his. Jennings has explosion. In terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc., I started a thread about the Fins WR's and draft prospects- wondering what the common threads are in terms of Colston, Austin, Brandon Marshall, etc. I'm not sure, I prefer the eyeball method.

Explosion is this year's term for me in terms of WR's because the Dolphins don't have any. Tate has it, Benn has some to go along with his size and strength. I don't know to what extent it's quantifiable- Hartline had great shuttle #'s- I mean tops- and I look at him in terms of explostion and think, "nope". I saw film of Jerry Rice training- dude ran a 4.7 but he EXPLODED out of cuts. Dwayne Bowe has it. Makes his moves at that size and bam, he's gone. That stuff sticks with me. I have to see the player, I'm not sure that a vertical or broad jump # is going to do it, but it doesn't hurt.


Alright well that's kinda what I was looking for from you...

I believe Miami needs to focus on acquiring some WR's that are explosive....and can run after the catch......and lower body explosion (in terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc.) aren't as signficant as shuttle times IMO...

I think the lower body explosion is significant in eating up a DB's cushion quickly and forcing him to open his hips up.....make his body commit physically to something....then work him over from there with your route running..

Shuttle times and cone times are more directly related to precise route running and run after the catch ability IMO......ability to sink your hips....change direction....move laterally in traffic, etc....

It's just something helpful if you're not familiar with a certain player or haven't watched him play in order to give him the "eye ball" test...

"Big"..."Tall"...blah blah etc.....none of that stuff matters to me.....

I want a player who's quick in and out of cuts and creates seperation....catches the ball with his hands.....breaks a few tackles....runs crisp routes....and can run after the catch.....I dont care if he's 5'5" or 6'5"......as a legendary coach once said..."As long as his feet touch the ground it doesn't matter"....

I'm not one to tout prospects or criticize them unless I'm familiar with what I'm talking about....and I really like Tate....Gilyard...Lafell....Bryant...and Damian Williams as potential WR's for Miami......along with a few small school guys who generally get very little exposure....

jim1
11-23-2009, 01:16 PM
Alright well that's kinda what I was looking for from you...

I believe Miami needs to focus on acquiring some WR's that are explosive....and can run after the catch......and lower body explosion (in terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc.) aren't as signficant as shuttle times IMO...

I think the lower body explosion is significant in eating up a DB's cushion quickly and forcing him to open his hips up.....make his body commit physically to something....then work him over from there with your route running..

Shuttle times and cone times are more directly related to precise route running and run after the catch ability IMO......ability to sink your hips....change direction....move laterally in traffic, etc....

It's just something helpful if you're not familiar with a certain player or haven't watched him play in order to give him the "eye ball" test...

"Big"..."Tall"...blah blah etc.....none of that stuff matters to me.....

I want a player who's quick in and out of cuts and creates seperation....catches the ball with his hands.....breaks a few tackles....runs crisp routes....and can run after the catch.....I dont care if he's 5'5" or 6'5"......as a legendary coach once said..."As long as his feet touch the ground it doesn't matter"....

I'm not one to tout prospects or criticize them unless I'm familiar with what I'm talking about....and I really like Tate....Gilyard...Lafell....Bryant...and Damian Williams as potential WR's for Miami......along with a few small school guys who generally get very little exposure....

I think that big and tall (blah blah as you call them) - and aggressive- should matter to you. It's all important- speed, quicks, strength, aggression. But big and tall are going to help a guy create space and position if they know how to use their body, go up to get a ball and help him with yac (the big/strong part, that is.)

Whatever qualities Lafell brings to the table as a 1st rd pick I'm just not seeing- and I don't see the comparisons to Bowe. Could I see him as a 2nd rd guy for us? Sure. I've been as clear as I can that I can see merit re: Gilyard and Williams based on flimsy evidence at best and I include them because they are considered very good prospects. I'm more interested on feedback regarding them because I have no basis for a true opinion. Damien Williams- is he special or is he a very competent and talented WR? I'm not sure. But when USC is on he doesn't grab my attention. I've been going out on a limb re: Benn for a while because I see a special, repressed talent in him. Dude is trapped in that putrid Illinois offense. As to the workout #s- vertical, shuttle, etc.- they're measured for a reason, but there are guys every year like Todd Lowber and that volley ball playing dude that almost made the Dolphins a few years ago that get flushed out despite eye popping measurables- they're nice, but not everything by a long shot. And no offense, but I'll bring up any player that I want to. If I'm not familiar with the player I'll make that very clear.

TedSlimmJr
11-23-2009, 01:48 PM
I think that big and tall (blah blah blah as you call them) - and aggressive- should matter to you. It's all important- speed, quicks, strength, aggression. But big and tall are going to help a guy create space and position if they know how to use their body, go up to get a ball and help him with yac (the big/strong part, that is.)

Whatever qualities Lafell brings to the table as a 1st rd pick I'm just not seeing- and I don't see the comparisons to Bowe. Could I see him as a 2nd rd guy for us? Sure. I've been as clear as I can that I can see merit re: Gilyard and Williams based on flimsy evidence at best and I include them because they are considered very good prospects. I'm more interested on feedback regarding them because I have no basis for a true opinion. Damien Williams- is he special or is he a very competent and talented WR? I'm not sure. But when USC is on he doesn't grab my attention. I've been going out on a limb re: Benn for a while because I see a special, repressed talent in him. Dude is trapped in that putrid Illinois offense. As to the workout #s- vertical, shuttle, etc.- they're measured for a reason, but there are guys every year like Todd Lowber and that volley ball playing dude that almost made the Dolphins a few years ago that get flushed out despite eye popping measurables- they're nice, but not everything by a long shot. And no offense, but I'll bring up any player that I want to. If I'm not familiar with the player I'll make that very clear.



:lol: I think you misunderstood me....I wasn't in anyway referring to who you brought up or why....that's what we're here for....I was simply putting it out there that I won't tout a prospect or criticize him in a baseless manner...

And since you said that you hadn't seen Mike Williams play....that once he tests in the combine drills that certain drills are more pertinent to the certain aspects you're looking for in a WR......as opposed to dunking a basketball.....Terrance Cody can dunk a basketball....but I don't want him playing WR for me if that makes sense....

I never said speed, aggression, quicks, and strength didn't matter.....in fact...that's exactly what I'd be looking for.....I said "big" and "tall" doesn't matter to me....

I see plenty of WR's that aren't 6-4, 220 that play with much more aggression and strength than some of the bigger guys....

Being 6'3" - 6'5" is useless if you don't have control over it.....give me the 5'11" guy with those attributes that can create seperation....

I don't think Damian Williams is special....I think he's one of the best route runners who does a lot of the little things well....same for Gilyard...except Gilyard is more aggressive IMO...

Williams doesn't catch my eye when I watch USC as much as the tight end McCoy does....I think that guy could be special....

The reason I asked you if you thought guys like Marshall, Austin, Jennings, Colston, etc. were explosive, and what that had to with RAC ability is because they all were average by comparison when you look at their verticals and broad jumps....

jim1
11-23-2009, 02:03 PM
:lol: I think you misunderstood me....I wasn't in anyway referring to who you brought up or why....that's what we're here for....I was simply putting it out there that I won't tout a prospect or criticize him in a baseless manner...

And since you said that you hadn't seen Mike Williams play....that once he tests in the combine drills that certain drills are more pertinent to the certain aspects you're looking for in a WR......as opposed to dunking a basketball.....Terrance Cody can dunk a basketball....but I don't want him playing WR for me if that makes sense....

I never said speed, aggression, quicks, and strength didn't matter.....in fact...that's exactly what I'd be looking for.....I said "big" and "tall" doesn't matter to me....

I see plenty of WR's that aren't 6-4, 220 that play with much more aggression and strength than some of the bigger guys....

Being 6'3" - 6'5" is useless if you don't have control over it.....give me the 5'11" guy with those attributes that can create seperation....

I don't think Damian Williams is special....I think he's one of the best route runners who does a lot of the little things well....same for Gilyard...except Gilyard is more aggressive IMO...

Williams doesn't catch my eye when I watch USC as much as the tight end McCoy does....I think that guy could be special....

The reason I asked you if you thought guys like Marshall, Austin, Jennings, Colston, etc. were explosive, and what that had to with RAC ability is because they all were average by comparison when you look at their verticals and broad jumps....

All fair points. I think that Colston had a very good 10 yard split time. Colston, Austin, Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshall- they seem to know how to use their size- we could sure use a receiver like those guys. if I recall correctly Jackson was very fast for a bug guy coming out into the draft. Austin- all I know is that for the last couple of years I see the guy and he has the look- the dude is big and fast. I know that it's an oversimplification but you just look at the guy and he reeks of potential.

As to the testing- I disagree with you about the short shuttle- seems like a good test to me. And Hartline blew that test out of the water- yet where's the explosion? I'll be a monkey's uncle if he ever slams like Williams. So what I'm saying is that i'm confused by that one. Cody slamming is great for a NT- but lets' not mix apples and oranges. Williams put on a show at 6-2, and ther's a hand-eye coordination component going on there as well. i'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill- all I'm saying is that I saw Williams, a player whom I've heard qite a lot about but haven't seen play- dunk the hell out of the basketball and thought, "hmmm..."

I see your point about speed, quicks, strength trumping height and size. For me personally, hell yes I'd take a look at Golden Tate in rd 2. Dude has some excellent qualities and being 5-11 doesn't take them away by a long shot.

Valandui
11-23-2009, 08:26 PM
All fair points. I think that Colston had a very good 10 yard split time. Colston, Austin, Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshall- they seem to know how to use their size- we could sure use a receiver like those guys. if I recall correctly Jackson was very fast for a bug guy coming out into the draft. Austin- all I know is that for the last couple of years I see the guy and he has the look- the dude is big and fast. I know that it's an oversimplification but you just look at the guy and he reeks of potential.

As to the testing- I disagree with you about the short shuttle- seems like a good test to me. And Hartline blew that test out of the water- yet where's the explosion? I'll be a monkey's uncle if he ever slams like Williams. So what I'm saying is that i'm confused by that one. Cody slamming is great for a NT- but lets' not mix apples and oranges. Williams put on a show at 6-2, and ther's a hand-eye coordination component going on there as well. i'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill- all I'm saying is that I saw Williams, a player whom I've heard qite a lot about but haven't seen play- dunk the hell out of the basketball and thought, "hmmm..."

I see your point about speed, quicks, strength trumping height and size. For me personally, hell yes I'd take a look at Golden Tate in rd 2. Dude has some excellent qualities and being 5-11 doesn't take them away by a long shot.
Vincent Jackson ran a 4.38 at the combine checking in at 6'5" and 241 lbs. I wonder why this guy fell to the second round.

jim1
11-23-2009, 09:13 PM
Vincent Jackson ran a 4.38 at the combine checking in at 6'5" and 241 lbs. I wonder why this guy fell to the second round.

Low second round pick at that. My best guess is that he went to a smaller football school (northern Colorado) so he was considered a bigger risk than a big school guy. Nearly ideal size and he hauls, great pickup for SD. We need one of those guys down here.

houtz
11-23-2009, 10:10 PM
I don't follow the Broncos or Chargers very much. I did see Marshall push Moreno yesterday. What are the odds that the front office would take a look at either of these guys if they would by some miracle hit Free Agency?

Valandui
11-23-2009, 10:36 PM
I don't follow the Broncos or Chargers very much. I did see Marshall push Moreno yesterday. What are the odds that the front office would take a look at either of these guys if they would by some miracle hit Free Agency?
I think that if we make a push for any FA WR, it will be Miles Austin since he is a guy Parcells and Ireland found and I'm pretty sure that we wanted him this past offseason before Dallas put a second round tender on him. In retrospect, it may have been a good move. At the time we made the right move though as he was completely unproven at that point and it would have been stupid to give a second for him. Even if they tag him I could see us trying to work out a trade or something.

jim1
11-23-2009, 11:21 PM
I think that if we make a push for any FA WR, it will be Miles Austin since he is a guy Parcells and Ireland found and I'm pretty sure that we wanted him this past offseason before Dallas put a second round tender on him. In retrospect, it may have been a good move. At the time we made the right move though as he was completely unproven at that point and it would have been stupid to give a second for him. Even if they tag him I could see us trying to work out a trade or something.

The cat is out of the bag re: Austin and I doubt that he's going anywhere. I liked Kevin Burnett at OLB, too. I saw explosion that I liked tonight, albeit on a ko return- Andre Davis, WR Houston. I have no idea if he'll be a FA next year.

Valandui
11-23-2009, 11:39 PM
The cat is out of the bag re: Austin and I doubt that he's going anywhere. I liked Kevin Burnett at OLB, too. I saw explosion that I liked tonight, albeit on a ko return- Andre Davis, WR Houston. I have no idea if he'll be a FA next year.
You're right, but Austin has only done this for half of a season. If we did trade for him, it probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg. I don't really see it going through, but I think an attempt will be made.

jim1
11-24-2009, 09:14 AM
You're right, but Austin has only done this for half of a season. If we did trade for him, it probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg. I don't really see it going through, but I think an attempt will be made.

I don't see how Dallas would let him go with Roy Williams underperforming.

jim1
11-24-2009, 03:10 PM
Miles Austin is explosive. Brandon Marshall has wheels and size, Colston is one of those manimal types who has some explosion but is just a man out there taking his. Jennings has explosion. In terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc., I started a thread about the Fins WR's and draft prospects- wondering what the common threads are in terms of Colston, Austin, Brandon Marshall, etc. I'm not sure, I prefer the eyeball method.

Explosion is this year's term for me in terms of WR's because the Dolphins don't have any. Tate has it, Benn has some to go along with his size and strength. I don't know to what extent it's quantifiable- Hartline had great shuttle #'s- I mean tops- and I look at him in terms of explostion and think, "nope". I saw film of Jerry Rice training- dude ran a 4.7 but he EXPLODED out of cuts. Dwayne Bowe has it. Makes his moves at that size and bam, he's gone. That stuff sticks with me. I have to see the player, I'm not sure that a vertical or broad jump # is going to do it, but it doesn't hurt.


p.s. re: explosion- explosion come in different packages, there's the Usain Bolt variety but often it comes in the form of very muscular guys. Look at track sprinters- the aformentioned Bolt, Skeets Neyamiah, Carl Lewis- muscular and lean. But often these guys are pretty darned thick and muscular a la Ben Johnson- yeah I know he was juiced up. A good friend of mine ran track at Clemson- he pointed this out to me that often explosive speed comes in a very thick and muscular body. And that would apply to other athletic pursuits as well- shot putting, that kind of track and field stuff.

What I'm getting at is your question of what am I looking for in terms of explosion? For better or worse the templates are Miles Austin (realistically) and Andre Johnson (unrealistically). I'm not saying that this approach is right, it's just some amateur hack with a sense- a profile- of what he's looking for in a Dolphins receiver. Again, a photo of Benn:

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/11/ArreliousBenn_003-1.jpg

Look at the lower bodies of Clemson's CJ Spiller and Jacoby Ford:

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/11/3298211-1.jpeg

So this is kind of what I'm looking for- I bring up Spiller and Ford in terms over lower body strength as it relates to explosion, not that they're tops on my list in terms of WRs The templates again are Miles Austin and Andre Johnson. So when I see Benn the light goes off in my head, this is the right kind of guy. And the dude is right there at 6-2, 220- a physical presence with quicks and wheels. It ain't science, it's just my thought process and preferences.

TedSlimmJr
11-25-2009, 04:52 AM
I think most of us would all like the "total package" at WR....big, tall, fast, explosive, physical, runs crisp routes, excellent hands, etc., etc...

My point is....most of the time you're going to have to choose between a guy that possesses half these traits and missing the other half.....there's a difference between TALENT and SKILL...

Ideally, you want to choose the guy that possesses the "talent" traits that you cant coach....and coach him up on the "skill" traits.....that CAN be coached.....if those TALENT traits are rare....

However, if those TALENT traits are average/above average...you're better off going with the guy that more polished in the SKILL traits...


I prefer to ignore "track" speed...RARELY does it ever translate into pads....what you see on film is what translates into pads...

You basically re-enforced what I already mentioned...which is that the best WR's in the NFL that are both big and explosive with dependable hands....have their bulk distributed evenly in the lower body....it's not all up top.....and it's interesting you brought up Carl Lewis....

True Story - In the early 80's I had to attend high school for 2 years in Bay City, Texas....ran track, played football, and baseball....while I was there I ran track with the fastest human being I've ever seen...

He was my height (about 6'0")...but this guy probably only weighed 170 pounds soaking wet....very cut and very muscular...but very, very little bulk in the lower body...

This guy's name was Joe DeLoach....he beat Carl Lewis in the 200m for the gold medal in the '88 Olympics....setting a world record at the time of 19.75s...

He always wanted to play football but he knew his calling was between the stripes....not between the sidelines....some people never realize it...

I actually like Benn....he fits the profile of the type of WR that Miami needs....but he also fits the profile of one of the guys that will struggle to catch the ball consistently....he does now at times....

Personally, I prefer a guy that's more elusive and creative with the ball in his hands if I'm going to use a 1st round pick on him.....I might go ahead and choose Benn if I were picking late in the 1st round...

But if I'm picking in the middle of the 1st....I'm targeting other players...

hooshoops
11-25-2009, 10:22 AM
well i can say that when i spoke with ireland directly last week the first name at wr he brought up that he liked was brandon lafell...

hooshoops
11-25-2009, 10:26 AM
I think most of us would all like the "total package" at WR....big, tall, fast, explosive, physical, runs crisp routes, excellent hands, etc., etc...

My point is....most of the time you're going to have to choose between a guy that possesses half these traits and missing the other half.....there's a difference between TALENT and SKILL...

Ideally, you want to choose the guy that possesses the "talent" traits that you cant coach....and coach him up on the "skill" traits.....that CAN be coached.....if those TALENT traits are rare....

However, if those TALENT traits are average/above average...you're better off going with the guy that more polished in the SKILL traits...


I prefer to ignore "track" speed...RARELY does it ever translate into pads....what you see on film is what translates into pads...

You basically re-enforced what I already mentioned...which is that the best WR's in the NFL that are both big and explosive with dependable hands....have their bulk distributed evenly in the lower body....it's not all up top.....and it's interesting you brought up Carl Lewis....

True Story - In the early 80's I had to attend high school for 2 years in Bay City, Texas....ran track, played football, and baseball....while I was there I ran track with the fastest human being I've ever seen...

He was my height (about 6'0")...but this guy probably only weighed 170 pounds soaking wet....very cut and very muscular...but very, very little bulk in the lower body...

This guy's name was Joe DeLoach....he beat Carl Lewis in the 200m for the gold medal in the '88 Olympics....setting a world record at the time of 19.75s...

He always wanted to play football but he knew his calling was between the stripes....not between the sidelines....some people never realize it...

I actually like Benn....he fits the profile of the type of WR that Miami needs....but he also fits the profile of one of the guys that will struggle to catch the ball consistently....he does now at times....

Personally, I prefer a guy that's more elusive and creative with the ball in his hands if I'm going to use a 1st round pick on him.....I might go ahead and choose Benn if I were picking late in the 1st round...

But if I'm picking in the middle of the 1st....I'm targeting other players...



i think we're gonna end up picking in the 18 to 22 range when it's all said and done...

having said that what targets that you like do you think we'll have a realistic shot at??? i don't think dez bryant or rolando mcclain will still be on the board then...

jim1
11-25-2009, 11:07 AM
I think most of us would all like the "total package" at WR....big, tall, fast, explosive, physical, runs crisp routes, excellent hands, etc., etc...

My point is....most of the time you're going to have to choose between a guy that possesses half these traits and missing the other half.....there's a difference between TALENT and SKILL...

Ideally, you want to choose the guy that possesses the "talent" traits that you cant coach....and coach him up on the "skill" traits.....that CAN be coached.....if those TALENT traits are rare....

However, if those TALENT traits are average/above average...you're better off going with the guy that more polished in the SKILL traits...


I prefer to ignore "track" speed...RARELY does it ever translate into pads....what you see on film is what translates into pads...

You basically re-enforced what I already mentioned...which is that the best WR's in the NFL that are both big and explosive with dependable hands....have their bulk distributed evenly in the lower body....it's not all up top.....and it's interesting you brought up Carl Lewis....

True Story - In the early 80's I had to attend high school for 2 years in Bay City, Texas....ran track, played football, and baseball....while I was there I ran track with the fastest human being I've ever seen...

He was my height (about 6'0")...but this guy probably only weighed 170 pounds soaking wet....very cut and very muscular...but very, very little bulk in the lower body...

This guy's name was Joe DeLoach....he beat Carl Lewis in the 200m for the gold medal in the '88 Olympics....setting a world record at the time of 19.75s...

He always wanted to play football but he knew his calling was between the stripes....not between the sidelines....some people never realize it...

I actually like Benn....he fits the profile of the type of WR that Miami needs....but he also fits the profile of one of the guys that will struggle to catch the ball consistently....he does now at times....

Personally, I prefer a guy that's more elusive and creative with the ball in his hands if I'm going to use a 1st round pick on him.....I might go ahead and choose Benn if I were picking late in the 1st round...

But if I'm picking in the middle of the 1st....I'm targeting other players...

Sounds like you would prefer Gilyard then. I did a little bit of research on Austin/Coles/Marshall- big fast dudes who proves to be great values- and they seemed to have a track background more often than not. I'm not for reaching- not reaching for Henne said a lot to me, because I'm thinking that the FO really liked him. But from our 1st rd pick to 2nd- danger zone in terms of WRs falling off of the board. A trade up in the 2nd rd would strike me as a possibility. A guy like benn- seriously, from #20 to say #30-45, who knows where he ends up going. If they have a conviction on a guy and the price is right I say do it. We all know that getting a #1 is a requirement, not a want.

hooshoops
11-25-2009, 11:09 AM
gilyards too small...we got enough 175 lb wrs...pass

TedSlimmJr
11-26-2009, 05:03 AM
I do like Gilyard....although I'm not a fan of the type of offense he plays in...

The issue isn't that Miami has "enough" 175 pound WR's....they only have one....the issue is that the one that they have isn't a WR....he's a pansy *** kick returner...

Gilyard is a WR...and he's in the 185-190 pound range anyway...

Similar to Damian Williams....who as I mentioned isn't anything special PHYSICALLY.....but he puts both O's in the word SMOOTH.....he plays so under control and makes everything look easy....he does all the little things well.....he runs great routes...has reliable hands....willing to block...and creates seperation with his route running...

I think a lot of people are paying too much attention to size and not enough attention to what these guys do on the field....

Williams and Gilyard aren't 6'4".....they're not going to run 4.3.....they can't seperate themselves PHYSICALLY from the pack.....but they are two of the most polished, and NFL ready WR's in the draft....

Williams reminds me of Reggie Wayne....who also couldn't seperate himself PHYSICALLY in the draft....

Miami needs good, sure handed WR's that run great routes and can create seperation in and out of breaks....can run after the catch....

Just because you're 6'4" or 6'5" and 220 doesn't mean you're any good (see Patrick Turner)....

If Miami has had ENOUGH of anything lately....it's been ENOUGH of the 6'4"-6'5" 220 pound WR's that suck...(Turner, Wilford, etc.)

Williams and Gilyard are both better prospects than guys like Robiskie, etc. were last year IMO...who went at the top of the 2nd round...

I was never that impressed with Patrick Turner to begin with....he didn't get enough seperation for my taste....especially to be taking in the 3rd round...

We would all ideally love an Andre Johnson, Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson type receiver.....but those guys don't come in every draft....just because you're 6'4" 220 and can run a 4.4 in a straightline with no pads doesn't mean you're of that caliber...

And as for Bryant or McClain being available when Miami picks....highly unlikely....I can't see either of them lasting 15 picks...

jim1
11-26-2009, 08:42 AM
I do like Gilyard....although I'm not a fan of the type of offense he plays in...

The issue isn't that Miami has "enough" 175 pound WR's....they only have one....the issue is that the one that they have isn't a WR....he's a pansy *** kick returner...

Gilyard is a WR...and he's in the 185-190 pound range anyway...

Similar to Damian Williams....who as I mentioned isn't anything special PHYSICALLY.....but he puts both O's in the word SMOOTH.....he plays so under control and makes everything look easy....he does all the little things well.....he runs great routes...has reliable hands....willing to block...and creates seperation with his route running...

I think a lot of people are paying too much attention to size and not enough attention to what these guys do on the field....

Williams and Gilyard aren't 6'4".....they're not going to run 4.3.....they can't seperate themselves PHYSICALLY from the pack.....but they are two of the most polished, and NFL ready WR's in the draft....

Williams reminds me of Reggie Wayne....who also couldn't seperate himself PHYSICALLY in the draft....

Miami needs good, sure handed WR's that run great routes and can create seperation in and out of breaks....can run after the catch....

Just because you're 6'4" or 6'5" and 220 doesn't mean you're any good (see Patrick Turner)....

If Miami has had ENOUGH of anything lately....it's been ENOUGH of the 6'4"-6'5" 220 pound WR's that suck...(Turner, Wilford, etc.)

Williams and Gilyard are both better prospects than guys like Robiskie, etc. were last year IMO...who went at the top of the 2nd round...

I was never that impressed with Patrick Turner to begin with....he didn't get enough seperation for my taste....especially to be taking in the 3rd round...

We would all ideally love an Andre Johnson, Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson type receiver.....but those guys don't come in every draft....just because you're 6'4" 220 and can run a 4.4 in a straightline with no pads doesn't mean you're of that caliber...

And as for Bryant or McClain being available when Miami picks....highly unlikely....I can't see either of them lasting 15 picks...

True, but that's dancing around the obvious. The goal is to get a big, strong WR with explosion. It's the same thing that I've been saying- Austin and Colston showed that it can be done in a later round, even FA. Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson- what, 2nd and 4th rd picks? That's fine, too. I know that these values come along rarely, but I'm hoping that we find a guy like these WRs. I have a feeling that Danario Alexander would be to close to Pat Turner. For all the times that I was wrong- I liked John Beck a lot- I was right in my hunch about Miles Austin. Which means nothing, except that I'm looking for another guy like that. That's probably why I'm locked on to Arrelious Benn.

TedSlimmJr
11-26-2009, 10:17 AM
True, but that's dancing around the obvious. The goal is to get a big, strong WR with explosion. It's the same thing that I've been saying- Austin and Colston showed that it can be done in a later round, even FA. Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson- what, 2nd and 4th rd picks? That's fine, too. I know that these values come along rarely, but I'm hoping that we find a guy like these WRs. I have a feeling that Danario Alexander would be to close to Pat Turner. For all the times that I was wrong- I liked John Beck a lot- I was right in my hunch about Miles Austin. Which means nothing, except that I'm looking for another guy like that. That's probably why I'm locked on to Arrelious Benn.


I'm not in disagreement with you on the fact that Miami needs a strong, explosive, fast, wide receiver.....that's exactly what Miami needs....it's the "big" part that is irrelevant IMO.....particularly height....

Personally, I would put "reliable hands"...."ability to create seperation"......"quick in and out of breaks"......."crisp route runner"......and "run after the catch ability".......above "big" on my list of prerequisites...

jim1
11-26-2009, 11:26 AM
I'm not in disagreement with you on the fact that Miami needs a strong, explosive, fast, wide receiver.....that's exactly what Miami needs....it's the "big" part that is irrelevant IMO.....particularly height....

Personally, I would put "reliable hands"...."ability to create seperation"......"quick in and out of breaks"......."crisp route runner"......and "run after the catch ability".......above "big" on my list of prerequisites...

There's a big differernce between preference and irrelevant. How you could refer to size as irrelevant just doesn't register with me. I'll give you an example though- I'd prefer Golden Tate to Denario Alexander. Not that it's a stretch, but my point is that he provides the qualities that you listed in the 2nd paragraph- and they are critical factors, especially to us since we have less of them on our team than any other NFL team that I can think of. So a guy like Tate- hell yes, bring it on.

That being said- the size part counts- look at Randy Moss toying with smaller CBs, going up for the catch. Irvin used his size well, Keyshawn Johnson, Art Monk, Harold Charmichael. The list goes on. And Parcell love size. Getting position and going after high balls- you have to go get it. And not just height, but bulk- YAC, blocking, getting off the LOS. Players get downgraded for a lack of height and bulk- the reasons for it are obvious. To me, Bryant and Benn remain standouts, and DThomas has a lot of great qualities, I still want to see more in terms of explosion.

But of course the size has to translate. Pat Turner- dude is large- tall and muscular- what, about 6-5, 225? He's a glider, not an explosion/separation guy. Brandon Lafell is probably tougher than Turner- I'm troubled by the reports that Turner can't beat the press at his size- but I don't see enough explosion and YAC ability in Lafell to merit a 1st round pick. I could see him sliding to the 2nd rd. And, as has happened many time before, I might end up eating my words like a big plate of Thanksgiving food. But still, when I think about it I'd have a hard time taking Lafell over A Benn or D Thomas. And my guess is that I'de take Golden Tate over Mardy Gilyard. Ted Ginn should take notes on this catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffQQXi7YnNk

THAT is how you go up and make a play. BTW, look at the wheels on Notre Dame TE Dave Ragone. Wow- and the dude is 6-5, 255? Big, fast, Italian TE from New Jersey and Notre Dame- sounds like a Bill Parcells special. Look for him to get serious interest from us next year, provided that we don't grab a guy high this year.

hooshoops
11-26-2009, 11:42 AM
i'd take tate in a second from what i've seen over gilyard...i'm not huge on lafell myself as a legit #1 wr down the line.

TedSlimmJr
11-26-2009, 11:59 AM
There's a big differernce between preference and irrelevant. How you could refer to size as irrelevant just doesn't register with me. I'll give you an example though- I'd prefer Golden Tate to Denario Alexander. Not that it's a stretch, but my point is that he provides the qualities that you listed in the 2nd paragraph- and they are critical factors, especially to us since we have less of them on our team than any other NFL team that I can think of. So a guy like Tate- hell yes, bring it on.

That being said- the size part counts- look at Randy Moss toying with smaller CBs, going up for the catch. Irvin used his size well, Keyshawn Johnson, Art Monk, Harold Charmichael. The list goes on. And Parcell love size. Getting position and going after high balls- you have to go get it. And not just height, but bulk- YAC, blocking, getting off the LOS. Players get downgraded for a lack of height and bulk- the reasons for it are obvious. To me, Bryant and Benn remain standouts, and DThomas has a lot of great qualities, I still want to see more in terms of explosion.

But of course the size has to translate. Pat Turner- dude is large- tall and muscular- what, about 6-5, 225? He's a glider, not an explosion/separation guy. Brandon Lafell is probably tougher than Turner- I'm troubled by the reports that Turner can't beat the press at his size- but I don't see enough explosion and YAC ability in Lafell to merit a 1st round pick. I could see him sliding to the 2nd rd. And, as has happened many time before, I might end up eating my words like a big plate of Thanksgiving food. But still, when I think about it I'd have a hard time taking Lafell over A Benn or D Thomas. And my guess is that I'de take Golden Tate over Mardy Gilyard. Ted Ginn should take notes on this catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffQQXi7YnNk

THAT is how you go up and make a play. BTW, look at the wheels on Notre Dame TE Dave Ragone. Wow- and the dude is 6-5, 255? Big, fast, Italian TE from Notre Dame- sounds like a Bill Parcells special. Look for him to get serious interest from us next year, provided that we don't grab a guy high this year.


I'm not saying size is irrelevant all together....I'm saying it's irrelevant to me if the guy can't play ****ing football....

I'll take eleven 5'11" Golden Tate's over eleven 6'4"-6'5" guys that are going to be wearing street clothes on Sundays.....or eleven "big tall" guys that can't get seperation at the next level but have inflated stats due to the offenses they play in...

"Big" is lower on the priority list for WR's than all of the other characteristics I've mentioned is what I'm getting at....

Randy Moss isn't one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4"........he's one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4" and ran a sub 4.3 40....with RARE body control....leaping ability...explosion....and hand-eye coordination.....

If I have a choice between two WR's who are indentical in every aspect of skill and talent (just for the sake of conversation) but one is 5'11" and the other is 6'3".....OF COURSE I'll take the one that's 6'3"....

Just curious....how much college football do watch? Because you're going to be really confused basing your evaluations of these players based on highlights and slam dunking basketballs as opposed to their bodies of work every Saturday...

BTW...you want see what a potential top 10 pick at TE looks like? You've got the right team...but wrong player....Kyle Rudolph is the guy....

... Happy Thanksgiving....

jim1
11-26-2009, 12:11 PM
i'd take tate in a second from what i've seen over gilyard...i'm not huge on lafell myself as a legit #1 wr down the line.

I pretty much agree with all of that- except for Tate over Gilyard being a no brainer. The caveat is how little I've seen of Gilyard. It's redundant, but I feel compelled to bring it up when the subject of Gilyard comes up.

I still think that Lafell is a talent that you hope falls to you in the 2nd rd. I'm still confused by the comparisons to him and Dwayne Bowe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H_m-yRc6Q

Lafell is a tough guy, but Bowe is a physical presence with great lateral quickness for a guy his size imo. Down the line I don't see Lafell being Bowe's equal in any facet of the game- except maybe hands, I'm not sure about that one- both seem to have good hands to me. And yeah, Bowe has dropped a few in the pros. BTW, in terms of explosion LSU DB #7 seems to have it in spades. Not sure what year he is.

TedSlimmJr
11-26-2009, 12:22 PM
I pretty much agree with all of that- except for Tate over Gilyard being a no brainer. The caveat is how little I've seen of Gilyard. It's redundant, but I feel compelled to bring it up when the subject of Gilyard comes up.

I still think that Lafell is a talent that you hope falls to you in the 2nd rd. I'm still confused by the comparisons to him and Dwayne Bowe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H_m-yRc6Q

Lafell is a tough guy, but Bowe is a physical presence with great lateral quickness for a guy his size imo. Down the line I don't see Lafell being Bowe's equal in any facet of the game- except maybe hands, I'm not sure about that one- both seem to have good hands to me. And yeah, Bowe has dropped a few in the pros. BTW, in terms of explosion LSU DB #7 seems to have it in spades. Not sure what year he is.



That would be Patrick Peterson.....he's a sophomore....and the best CB in the country IMO.....RIGHT NOW....

Not only does he have explosion....he's going to be the most complete package at CB to come out since Shawn Springs/Bryant Westbrook IMO....I think he could be a top 5 pick if he comes out next year....

jim1
11-26-2009, 12:48 PM
I'm not saying size is irrelevant all together....I'm saying it's irrelevant to me if the guy can't play ****ing football....

I'll take eleven 5'11" Golden Tate's over eleven 6'4"-6'5" guys that are going to be wearing street clothes on Sundays.....or eleven "big tall" guys that can't get seperation at the next level but have inflated stats due to the offenses they play in...

"Big" is lower on the priority list for WR's than all of the other characteristics I've mentioned is what I'm getting at....

Randy Moss isn't one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4"........he's one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4" and ran a sub 4.3 40....with RARE body control....leaping ability...explosion....and hand-eye coordination.....

If I have a choice between two WR's who are indentical in every aspect of skill and talent (just for the sake of conversation) but one is 5'11" and the other is 6'3".....OF COURSE I'll take the one that's 6'3"....

Just curious....how much college football do watch? Because you're going to be really confused basing your evaluations of these players based on highlights and slam dunking basketballs as opposed to their bodies of work every Saturday...

BTW...you want see what a potential top 10 pick at TE looks like? You've got the right team...but wrong player....Kyle Rudolph is the guy....

... Happy Thanksgiving....

Dude- first of all the majority of your post (yet again) was an excercise in stating the obvious. That being preceded by you minimizing the importance of speed and size, which is kind of ridiculous. Of course and the end of the day these guys have to be able to play- once again an homage to your mastery of the obvious. But these tenths of a second count. I worked for a guy whose son was the career leader in rushing for Colgate and went on to play for the Steelers. He was telling me about the critical difference from say 4.4 to 4.5 in terms of an NFL RB turning the corner on a sweep. If I recall correctly we were discussing Walter Abercormbie from years ago as well as his son in that regard. I agree with him about tenths of seconds counting, and the majority of your last few posts rate anywhere from disagreement to a solid "whatever". Seriously, re read them- size and speed don't matter, production does but all things being equal you'll go for the better size and speed. Uh, ok. I wouldn't submit that thesis to any scouting departments in the near future.

I watch enough college football to get an idea of who I do and don't like. I don't make a habit of focusing on just the physical aspect of it ie slam dunking. It's just a small part of judging a player's ability. The fact of the matter is that I haven't seen Mike Williams play- and if I want to venture a guess or indicate interest on occassion by "profiling", to use your term, I will. It's the exception, not the rule. So when you suggest that I make a habit of judging players in this regard forgive me if I take offense. Bottom line the guy has the production under his belt and superior athletic skills. It doesn't mean that I'm on his band wagon, it means that I think that he has intriguing qualities. His name came up frequently and I looked him up, end of story.

Personally, I'd love to have both Golden Tate and Arrelious Benn. Both would bring a lot of qualities to the Dolphins WR posiotion that are sorely lacking, and both can return kicks as well. But that's most likely a pipe dream. We have other needs, too, no doubt.

Anyway, for the most part I do enjoy reading your posts. Happy Thanksgiving.

hooshoops
11-26-2009, 01:03 PM
I pretty much agree with all of that- except for Tate over Gilyard being a no brainer. The caveat is how little I've seen of Gilyard. It's redundant, but I feel compelled to bring it up when the subject of Gilyard comes up.

I still think that Lafell is a talent that you hope falls to you in the 2nd rd. I'm still confused by the comparisons to him and Dwayne Bowe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H_m-yRc6Q

Lafell is a tough guy, but Bowe is a physical presence with great lateral quickness for a guy his size imo. Down the line I don't see Lafell being Bowe's equal in any facet of the game- except maybe hands, I'm not sure about that one- both seem to have good hands to me. And yeah, Bowe has dropped a few in the pros. BTW, in terms of explosion LSU DB #7 seems to have it in spades. Not sure what year he is.

i'd agree and i haven't seen all that much of gilyard either but i'm so damn tired of watching tiny wrs who barely fill out the uni run routes for us so i've got a certain size i'd like to see...

yeah lafell i don't know...i see a long term #2 when i look at him...

the #7 db patrick peterson i believe is legit and will be a top pick in 2011

somebody put up some gilyard tape for us to review...i saw him once this year against cuse i think it was and i didn't come away overly impressed...of course i was watching mike williams closely and he didn't look all that explosive to me either.

jim1
11-26-2009, 01:11 PM
i'd agree and i haven't seen all that much of gilyard either but i'm so damn tired of watching tiny wrs who barely fill out the uni run routes for us so i've got a certain size i'd like to see...

yeah lafell i don't know...i see a long term #2 when i look at him...

the #7 db patrick peterson i believe is legit and will be a top pick in 2011

somebody put up some gilyard tape for us to review...i saw him once this year against cuse i think it was and i didn't come away overly impressed...of course i was watching mike williams closely and he didn't look all that explosive to me either.

Wow, I'd like to find that game on tape somewhere. That would kill two birds with one stone, seeing Gilyard and Williams. I'd imagine that getting Tivo would help as well.

hooshoops
11-26-2009, 01:17 PM
Wow, I'd like to find that game on tape somewhere. That would kill two birds with one stone, seeing Gilyard and Williams. I'd imagine that getting Tivo would help as well.

it was earlier this year a nooner on espn or the deuce or maybe the u...i went in hearing about how good a wr pro prospect mike williams was and came away kinda mid round pick...than he quit the team

i'm gonna search foe more tape on these wrs before i go any further with my takes...there's some peoples opinions i really respect who are high on some guys i haven't been all that taken with...

i know when i watch golden tate i see steve smith like pro player and he really stands out...

dez bryant is by far my favorite though...i see eric moulds like player there in short order maybe not as fast but a physical instant impact pro player

the illinois offense is so putrid i'm having a hard time getting a read on benn...physical marvel though and trapped on that sorry team

jim1
11-26-2009, 01:38 PM
Pretty much agreed. In terms of speed, lateral movement, big play ability, it's kind of hard not to like Tate. And of course the kick returns.

Everyone of course has their opinion on Benn. And it has been frustrating watching him this year. He's not the manimal that Bryant is, but he's plenty fast, plenty big, and he looks like he moves pretty darned well to me in terms of quicks and yac. He's not Golden Tate quickness wise, but to me he looks quick enough, especially at 6-2, 220. And the guy sure has the calf muscles to provide explosion. They try to get him invloved in the offense with option pitches, which is good to see because you can gauge him better since their passing offense blows so badly. The guy has some swivel to him and a nose for the endzone.

hooshoops
11-26-2009, 01:44 PM
Pretty much agreed. In terms of speed, lateral movement, big play ability, it's kind of hard not to like Tate. And of course the kick returns.

Everyone of course has their opinion on Benn. And it has been frustrating watching him this year. He's not the manimal that Bryant is, but he's plenty fast, plenty big, and he looks like he moves pretty darned well to me in terms of quicks and yac. He's not Golden Tate quickness wise, but to me he looks quick enough, especially at 6-2, 220. And the guy sure has the calf muscles to provide explosion. They try to get him invloved in the offense with option pitches, which is good to see because you can gauge him better since their passing offense blows so badly. The guy has some swivel to him and a nose for the endzone.

well what pro does he remind you of??? i don't really have a guy that he reminds me of

i also have concerns about his hands...looks like he catches the ball to me alot with his body...but i thought that about kenny britt last year that he didn't have natural hands like hakeem nicks or crabtree and that turned out ok...

TedSlimmJr
11-26-2009, 01:55 PM
Dude- first of all the majority of your post (yet again) was an excercise in stating the obvious. That being preceded by you minimizing the importance of speed and size, which is kind of ridiculous. Of course and the end of the day these guys have to be able to play- once again an homage to your mastery of the obvious. But these tenths of a second count. I worked for a guy whose son was the career leader in rushing for Colgate and went on to play for the Steelers. He was telling me about the critical difference from say 4.4 to 4.5 in terms of an NFL RB turning the corner on a sweep. If I recall correctly we were discussing Walter Abercormbie from years ago as well as his son in that regard. I agree with him about tenths of seconds counting, and the majority of your last few posts rate anywhere from disagreement to a solid "whatever". Seriously, re read them- size and speed don't matter, production does but all things being equal you'll go for the better size and speed. Uh, ok. I wouldn't submit that thesis to any scouting departments in the near future.

I watch enough college football to get an idea of who I do and don't like. I don't make a habit of focusing on just the physical aspect of it ie slam dunking. It's just a small part of judging a player's ability. The fact of the matter is that I haven't seen Mike Williams play- and if I want to venture a guess or indicate interest on occassion by "profiling", to use your term, I will. It's the exception, not the rule. So when you suggest that I make a habit of judging players in this regard forgive me if I take offense. Bottom line the guy has the production under his belt and superior athletic skills. It doesn't mean that I'm on his band wagon, it means that I think that he has intriguing qualities. His name came up frequently and I looked him up, end of story.

Personally, I'd love to have both Golden Tate and Arrelious Benn. Both would bring a lot of qualities to the Dolphins WR posiotion that are sorely lacking, and both can return kicks as well. But that's most likely a pipe dream. We have other needs, too, no doubt.

Anyway, for the most part I do enjoy reading your posts. Happy Thanksgiving.


Those tenths of a second don't matter unless you play the game of football to that timed speed.....

Do you honestly think Ted Ginn plays the game of football at 4.3?

Do you think Emmitt Smith played the game at 4.8?

Terrell Owens at 4.6?

Tony Gonzalez at 4.8?

Jerry Rice at 4.6-4.7?


The issue is that a 4.4 guy isn't going to turn the corner against NFL defenses any more than a 4.5 guy is so it doesn't really matter....it boils down to too many other variables that are unique to the player as to how much difference it makes....

Hell...a 4.3 guy isn't going to get the corner on NFL defenses as much for it to make that much of a difference....

jim1
11-26-2009, 02:30 PM
Those tenths of a second don't matter unless you play the game of football to that timed speed.....

Do you honestly think Ted Ginn plays the game of football at 4.3?

Do you think Emmitt Smith played the game at 4.8?

Terrell Owens at 4.6?

Tony Gonzalez at 4.8?

Jerry Rice at 4.6-4.7?


The issue is that a 4.4 guy isn't going to turn the corner against NFL defenses any more than a 4.5 guy is so it doesn't really matter....it boils down to too many other variables that are unique to the player as to how much difference it makes....

Hell...a 4.3 guy isn't going to get the corner on NFL defenses as much for it to make that much of a difference....

Tell that to Chris Johnson. Are you assuming that none of the fast guys play to their timed speed? Of course the speed has to translate to the field. Take a guy like Devin Aromashodu- great triangle numbers but it didn't translate, which is why he lasted until the 7th and has been a journeyman at best. So your point, yet again, is that if a guy is big and fast but plays like s*** then it just doesn't matter? Again, thanks for clarifying. Emmitt Smith was a 4.8 or so RB. Jerry Rice was a 4.7 WR. The are the two best at their position ever production wise. I get it. But every NFL team with a scouting department that meticuloulsy researches and documents size, strength, speed and pays untold millions to guys that measure up in those regards, often reaching based on what they perceive as potential- they must be a collection of *******es, right? They're quantifiable pieces of the puzzle, allow that to sink in for a minute. To paraphrase Lou Holtz, the race doesn't always to to the fastest and the strongest, but that's how I'm betting.

Production, intangibles, physical ability- it all counts. Now I'll state the obvious- NFL players are bigger and faster on average than their college counterparts. What cuts it in college won't necessarily cut it in the pros. So scouts have to project- what were the production numbers? What was the competition? Will the player's physical abilities measure up to the next level of competition and will his production translate to the pro game? A LOT of very productive college players simply get flushed out because of things like size, speed, tenths of a second, etc. No offense, but this stuff is just flat out obvious.

And speaking of Chris Johnson, take a look at a couple of Titans running backs- C Johnson is uber fast and plays like it. Chris Henry was drafted on strength, speed and size in the 2nd rd- God knows he wasn't drafted for his college production, and he flamed out with his raw skills not translating to the pro game. It goes both ways. Drafting is an art, not a science. And that's probably why guys like us are interested in it.

This discussion is boring at this point, my fault as much as yours. Enjoy your Thanksgiving and I'll do the same.

hooshoops
11-27-2009, 12:44 AM
hey illinois against cincy friday at noon on abc...gives me a birds eye view of benn and gilyard...

nice

DearbornDolfan
11-27-2009, 04:19 AM
At this point my perfect draft involves some serious moves at the WR position.


1) Package a 1st, 3rd, and Camarillo to the Chiefs for their 1st. I think they'd bite because Bowe at Split End, Chambers at Flanker, and Camarillo in the slot gives the Chiefs a dynamic passing attack that Haley would love. With that pick take Dez Bryant.

2) In the 2nd take Demaryius Thomas. He's a project, but damned if he isn't a man-child and he has plenty of wheels for somebody that weighs 230 pounds. GT claims 4.3 speed, but you know how that goes, so the real numbers are likely in the 4.4 to 4.5 range.

3) Package Ginn to the Raiders for a 3rd. Al Davis loves his speed and Ginn has enough production to justify it easily in his twisted, dementia-riddled mind.

DearbornDolfan
11-27-2009, 04:20 AM
Do you honestly think Ted Ginn plays the game of football at 4.3?

Yeah, he does. Say what you want about his timidness, because I know I've said it all, but the kid can turn it on in a hurry when he wants. Check out some of his pro highlights on Youtube if you don't believe me.

TedSlimmJr
11-27-2009, 09:49 AM
Tell that to Chris Johnson. Are you assuming that none of the fast guys play to their timed speed? Of course the speed has to translate to the field. Take a guy like Devin Aromashodu- great triangle numbers but it didn't translate, which is why he lasted until the 7th and has been a journeyman at best. So your point, yet again, is that if a guy is big and fast but plays like s*** then it just doesn't matter? Again, thanks for clarifying. Emmitt Smith was a 4.8 or so RB. Jerry Rice was a 4.7 WR. The are the two best at their position ever production wise. I get it. But every NFL team with a scouting department that meticuloulsy researches and documents size, strength, speed and pays untold millions to guys that measure up in those regards, often reaching based on what they perceive as potential- they must be a collection of *******es, right? They're quantifiable pieces of the puzzle, allow that to sink in for a minute. To paraphrase Lou Holtz, the race doesn't always to to the fastest and the strongest, but that's how I'm betting.

Production, intangibles, physical ability- it all counts. Now I'll state the obvious- NFL players are bigger and faster on average than their college counterparts. What cuts it in college won't necessarily cut it in the pros. So scouts have to project- what were the production numbers? What was the competition? Will the player's physical abilities measure up to the next level of competition and will his production translate to the pro game? A LOT of very productive college players simply get flushed out because of things like size, speed, tenths of a second, etc. No offense, but this stuff is just flat out obvious.

And speaking of Chris Johnson, take a look at a couple of Titans running backs- C Johnson is uber fast and plays like it. Chris Henry was drafted on strength, speed and size in the 2nd rd- God knows he wasn't drafted for his college production, and he flamed out with his raw skills not translating to the pro game. It goes both ways. Drafting is an art, not a science. And that's probably why guys like us are interested in it.

This discussion is boring at this point, my fault as much as yours. Enjoy your Thanksgiving and I'll do the same.


If it were a race I'd bet that way to.....but in the business of acquiring talent....you have to make sure you're getting what translates to the football field first and foremost....

"Big"..."Tall"..."Fast"...etc....doesn't always translate.....

The odds of having "reliable hands, crisp route running, ability to seperate, explosive in and out of breaks, and run after the catch ability".....are more in your favor of translating into productivity on the football field than "big, tall, and fast in a straightline"....

How did I already know you were going to bring up Chris Johnson? :lol:

Chris Johnson actually has SUB 4.3 speed (4.24)....and even HE doesn't make a living getting the corner on NFL defenses....although he certainly can more than a 4.4 or 4.5 guy......Johnson has the agility, vision, and patience, and enough tackle breaking ability to let his rare speed work for him......his longest runs don't come from turning the corner on NFL defenses....they come when he finds a crease and gets his shoulders square to the LOS....he can outrun just about anybody from there....

Are you bored again already? Should we go back to the Tebow thread? :lol:

TedSlimmJr
11-27-2009, 09:52 AM
Yeah, he does. Say what you want about his timidness, because I know I've said it all, but the kid can turn it on in a hurry when he wants. Check out some of his pro highlights on Youtube if you don't believe me.

Thanks for making my case for me.....

However, if I were going to take the time to "check out" someone's highlights to be entertained....It probably wouldn't be Ginn's.....but that's just me....

Welcome to this boring discussion...

jim1
11-27-2009, 12:52 PM
If it were a race I'd bet that way to.....but in the business of acquiring talent....you have to make sure you're getting what translates to the football field first and foremost....

"Big"..."Tall"..."Fast"...etc....doesn't always translate.....

The odds of having "reliable hands, crisp route running, ability to seperate, explosive in and out of breaks, and run after the catch ability".....are more in your favor of translating into productivity on the football field than "big, tall, and fast in a straightline"....

How did I already know you were going to bring up Chris Johnson? :lol:

Chris Johnson actually has SUB 4.3 speed (4.24)....and even HE doesn't make a living getting the corner on NFL defenses....although he certainly can more than a 4.4 or 4.5 guy......Johnson has the agility, vision, and patience, and enough tackle breaking ability to let his rare speed work for him......his longest runs don't come from turning the corner on NFL defenses....they come when he finds a crease and gets his shoulders square to the LOS....he can outrun just about anybody from there....

Are you bored again already? Should we go back to the Tebow thread? :lol:

Well, first you said:
"The issue is that a 4.4 guy isn't going to turn the corner against NFL defenses any more than a 4.5 guy is so it doesn't really matter."

Which is wrong.

Then you said:
"Chris Johnson actually has SUB 4.3 speed (4.24)....and even HE doesn't make a living getting the corner on NFL defenses."

No one ever mentioned making a living out of turning the corner, we were discussing the issue of speed aiding in turningthe corner. At least be consistent and don't change the issue. Sorry, but the notion that a 4.4 guy won't turn the corner more than a 4.5 guy is stupid.

These last several posts between us emanate from one sentence by you:

"Big"..."Tall"...blah blah etc.....none of that stuff matters to me"

And that is just ridiculous. Big and tall aren't the alpha and omega of scouting and predicting future success of football players, but to deny their importance is ridiculous. And I've never advocated taking players based solely on size and straight line speed.

Take for instance Louis Oliver. I've seen him play in the swamp and JRS-dude was an animal. The guy was like 6-2, 225, must have run about a 4.4, maybe less than that. Impressive today, more impressive 20 years ago. He slipped to #25 in the 1989 draft and was pissed. Thought he got robbed because Steve Atwater was taken ahead of him. Shula was thrilled to land him at #25- he saw a big as hell, fast as hell safety who was going to light it up in the NFL with his hitting and coverage abilities. But there was a problem, and guess who recognized it before the draft- Joel Buschbaum. Buschbaum saw this big, chiseled, fast as hell safety and saw that he had a major flaw- dude had major wheels but pedestrian quicks. And sure enough, for a decade or so I had to watch Oliver get abused by the smaller and vastly quicker Andre Reed every time we played the Buffalo Bills. It was go time for the Bills when Oliver was covering Reed.

The point is that big and tall do count, but as with the tale of Louis Oliver, they are not the only factors that are important, by a longshot. I want Steve Atwaters, not Louis Olivers. I want Miles Austins, not DHBs.

TedSlimmJr
11-27-2009, 01:35 PM
I'm not denying their importance in the overall evaluation process....I'm denying their importance if he can't play football....

In other words....if he doesn't play football to those specs...

Seriously,what about that isn't sinking in for you?

Do you know what the difference between 4.4 and 4.5 is in turning the corner on an NFL defense? The difference in 1/10 of a second is a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down...and a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down....

The difference in 2/10 of a second could mean a guy only getting one arm around you if he were to meet you at the exact same point....

Take John Wendling for example....a 6-1, 222 pound safety that ran 4.4 at the combine....with a 38 1/2" vertical.......the guy took 2 steps and jumped over a 5'6" high bar....which impressed a lot of scouts...

But they weren't fools.....he didn't have any INT's as a senior....they knew that it didn't translate onto the football field....which is why he fell all the way to the 6th round...

Taylor Mays will go to the combine and blow scouts away with his measurables....his height...weight...straightline speed....etc.....but when they pop in the tape....they're going to be wondering where all that is on the football field....

If you ask me...he looks like a guy who knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months and doesn't want to get hurt.....what's he going to be like when he's already got it in his pocket?

Give me the 5'11", 200 pounder that knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months too......but plays every down like it's his last......I don't know any other way to put it....

hooshoops
11-27-2009, 02:16 PM
yeah...i'm impressed with gilyard...he's silky smooth

reminds me of desean jackson but with better size

b/t why don't college wrs when they turn to the qb have their hands in better receiving the ball position??? way too much hands down at their midsection when they curl back...i don't get it

benn looks like he's a heck of a downfield blocker but it almost looks like he's going half speed...juice williams does him no favors

jim1
11-27-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm not denying their importance in the overall evaluation process....I'm denying their importance if he can't play football....

In other words....if he doesn't play football to those specs...

Seriously,what about that isn't sinking in for you?

Do you know what the difference between 4.4 and 4.5 is in turning the corner on an NFL defense? The difference in 1/10 of a second is a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down...and a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down....

The difference in 2/10 of a second could mean a guy only getting one arm around you if he were to meet you at the exact same point....

Take John Wendling for example....a 6-1, 222 pound safety that ran 4.4 at the combine....with a 38 1/2" vertical.......the guy took 2 steps and jumped over a 5'6" high bar....which impressed a lot of scouts...

But they weren't fools.....he didn't have any INT's as a senior....they knew that it didn't translate onto the football field....which is why he fell all the way to the 6th round...

Taylor Mays will go to the combine and blow scouts away with his measurables....his height...weight...straightline speed....etc.....but when they pop in the tape....they're going to be wondering where all that is on the football field....

If you ask me...he looks like a guy who knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months and doesn't want to get hurt.....what's he going to be like when he's already got it in his pocket?

Give me the 5'11", 200 pounder that knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months too......but plays every down like it's his last......I don't know any other way to put it....

What isn't sinking in with me? Are you kidding? Yeah, your tour de force of the obvious settled in quite some time ago. The flip side is that guys who play hard and are talented but lack the appropriate size are often filtered out. Same as a high school OL who might be 5-9, 230 and plays his guts out and is strong and quick. But he probably played his last down of football in high school. Or he's going to give it a shot at a very small college. Height and weight do matter when the competition bar is raised.

There are always guys that overcome size obstacles- the Bob Sanders, Darren Sproles of the world. But more often than not it doesn't work out that way. And you have to tip your hat to the guys that overcome the size obstacle- Wes Welker and Davon Bess come to mind, too. Also Doug Flutie. You mentioned Wendling- he must be doing something right, he's still in the NFL. What about all of the great college football players over the years who didn't make it in to the pros because they were too short, too light, not fast enough? How does your philosophy mesh with that? And although i agree with you that straight line speed is not all important, why would you say that it's considered so important to a praospects draft rating?

We're both beating this to a pulp. Round one was Tebow, this is round two. Let's save it for round three, because we're not really getting anywhere on this one. And yes, you can have the last word. Fire away.

FinsFanatic777
11-27-2009, 05:44 PM
Here's how I see it: size is pointless if you can control it. If you can control your size, it will be one of your greatest strengths.

finfan54
12-08-2009, 10:05 PM
wow.....gilyard just scored another touchdown.

finfan54
12-08-2009, 10:08 PM
True, but that's dancing around the obvious. The goal is to get a big, strong WR with explosion. It's the same thing that I've been saying- Austin and Colston showed that it can be done in a later round, even FA. Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson- what, 2nd and 4th rd picks? That's fine, too. I know that these values come along rarely, but I'm hoping that we find a guy like these WRs. I have a feeling that Danario Alexander would be to close to Pat Turner. For all the times that I was wrong- I liked John Beck a lot- I was right in my hunch about Miles Austin. Which means nothing, except that I'm looking for another guy like that. That's probably why I'm locked on to Arrelious Benn.

The goal is to score TD's.

jim1
12-10-2009, 09:06 AM
The goal is to score TD's.

Thanks for the clarification. Nothing like a stupid post to reduce an issue to its essence. Maybe we should take it a step further and say that the goal is to win games. Then, because the issue is so clear thanks to your laser like focus on the obvious, we can fire the scouting staff and have a monkey throw darts at our draft board to choose players.

Yes, the goal is to score touchdowns. The question is what players, and what qualities in players that we may draft, will help us to score touchdowns.