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flynryan15
12-05-2009, 05:59 PM
Well here is to hoping we get a good look at our first round pick! :up:

COphinphan89
12-05-2009, 06:01 PM
I love Spikes, but he's gotten punked on a few plays here.

flynryan15
12-05-2009, 06:02 PM
I like McClain more, although my opinion of Florida LBs maybe clouded due to a certain one on our team!

MiZFiT
12-05-2009, 06:37 PM
mcclain has been more impressive today, even against a better offense in florida.

CedarPhin
12-05-2009, 06:39 PM
I'll take McClain.

flynryan15
12-05-2009, 06:49 PM
I just see to much of Crowder in Spikes, he is not getting off blocks, missing tackles. McClain is bigger stronger and even looks faster, moves very well lateral and makes tackles on faster RBs in the open field.

bobw999
12-05-2009, 06:49 PM
McClain.

Plus, Spikes is injured.

MP-Omnis
12-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Spikes is playing vs. Bama. Both backers are looking pretty good tonight.

Roman529
12-05-2009, 09:27 PM
McClain is better...I am not high on Spikes.

CedarPhin
12-05-2009, 09:31 PM
McClain may have played himself out of our draft range today.

JT-forpresident
12-05-2009, 10:13 PM
McClain may have played himself out of our draft range today.

:(

Phinatic8u
12-05-2009, 10:46 PM
McClain may have played himself out of our draft range today.

How. Were picking top 20 maybe even 15

JT-forpresident
12-05-2009, 10:50 PM
How. Were picking top 20 maybe even 15

the way McClain plays, his size, his brains, and now the way he plays in big time games ?

there's no argument IMO that he's a top 15-20 type of guy... it'll be a close one i think for the fins if they are indeed interested in drafting him

ChadHenne
12-05-2009, 10:55 PM
As a Gators fan, ya'll know its McClain and it really isn't even close.

But to everybody who is making the Spikes/Crowder comparisions, you really aren't even trying. I mean if you want to compare, be a little more original and go outside of the same school. Sorry, I just think you are taking the easy way. Spikes game is absolutely nothing like Crowder's.

McClain will be a very good MLB in the NFL, probably a Bart Scott kind of player.

Lord Of Miami
12-06-2009, 07:00 AM
Man McClain really looks like a top 10, top 15 pick.

And Spikes looks like a shadow of himself.

hooshoops
12-06-2009, 10:23 AM
mcclain vs spikes is no contest...mcclain all the way

ckparrothead
12-06-2009, 10:39 AM
I'll take Spikes for $2000, Alex.

hooshoops
12-06-2009, 10:42 AM
i just don't see it with spikes...i don't see how he's the pick over mcclain

please elaborate ck

TedSlimmJr
12-06-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm taking McClain, Alex...

Spikes cannot get off blocks well.....William Vlachos owned him yesterday....

Spikes can't touch McClain sideline to sideline.....shedding blocks.....I like McClain better in coverage...

I can understand the "Spikes is more physical" angle....but I don't think it's accurate...

I think Spikes APPEARS to be more physical because McClain is so athletic and smooth for his size....Smart....knows where to be and when to be there......Spikes version of "more physical" isn't as EFFECTIVE of a physical as McClain's....

MP-Omnis
12-06-2009, 12:09 PM
Also, Spikes looks like a wimp compared to McClain. McClain looks huge out there.

hooshoops
12-06-2009, 12:16 PM
and i think mcclain has much better instincts also...something that's vital for an impact ilb

i watched mcclain move down the los in a controlled yet very fast manner last night...didn't overpursue and leave himself susceptible to cut backs and always in the right position...

mcclain all the way

BobDole
12-06-2009, 08:11 PM
you guys have to keep in mind spikes has been playing injured this whole damn season - stupid ticky tacky stuff - if it's not one thing it's the other. take the whole 4 years into consideration people.

mcclain does seem to be more fluid changing direction and whatnot - but spikes IS more physical and hits much harder. besides that they're basically the same player.

i think they're both great and will both have incredible NFL careers. if they're both still there when we pick - i say pick one and be pumped. can't go wrong either way.

zach8111
12-06-2009, 09:23 PM
McClain for sure is the better player.

I would compare this two ILB in this draft to the 07 draft where there was two really good ILB in Willis and Beason, where the 2nd one taken is still very good

Clipse
12-06-2009, 10:01 PM
McClain for sure, not even close.

3rdandinches
12-07-2009, 02:17 AM
Spikes couldn't get off a block, what happens when pro Lineman get to him? McClain please and thank you.

t2thejz
12-07-2009, 04:52 PM
you guys have to keep in mind spikes has been playing injured this whole damn season - stupid ticky tacky stuff - if it's not one thing it's the other. take the whole 4 years into consideration people.

mcclain does seem to be more fluid changing direction and whatnot - but spikes IS more physical and hits much harder. besides that they're basically the same player.

i think they're both great and will both have incredible NFL careers. if they're both still there when we pick - i say pick one and be pumped. can't go wrong either way.

haha Spikes hits much harder? Doubt it. He is very physical and has been great for the Gators but Mclain is smarter and faster. Mclain makes every call for this Alabama D which is the best in the country and a very complicated system. There was an article last year on ESPN the stated that many scouts thought Mclain was the best pro prospect in the college games even though he was not eligible.

BobDole
12-08-2009, 11:05 PM
haha Spikes hits much harder? Doubt it. He is very physical and has been great for the Gators but Mclain is smarter and faster. Mclain makes every call for this Alabama D which is the best in the country and a very complicated system. There was an article last year on ESPN the stated that many scouts thought Mclain was the best pro prospect in the college games even though he was not eligible.

what does smarter and faster have to do with hitting harder? i've watched them both play every game in their collegiate careers and yes - spikes hits harder. not an opinion.

ArmyFin7
12-08-2009, 11:47 PM
I've seen mocks lately that have Spikes falling into the mid 2nd round....doubt it stays that way but I will just say...take them both.

t2thejz
12-10-2009, 08:21 PM
what does smarter and faster have to do with hitting harder? i've watched them both play every game in their collegiate careers and yes - spikes hits harder. not an opinion.

Because you said they are basically the same player besides a few small differences.

Spikes may hit harder....but it is not that big of a difference. I have seen Mclain knock plenty of runners helmets off, and he does not miss tackles. I like Spikes. He is a competitor and would love to see him on the Fins but Mclain is the type of Linebacker that only comes around every so often.

BobDole
12-11-2009, 12:53 AM
Because you said they are basically the same player besides a few small differences.

Spikes may hit harder....but it is not that big of a difference. I have seen Mclain knock plenty of runners helmets off, and he does not miss tackles. I like Spikes. He is a competitor and would love to see him on the Fins but Mclain is the type of Linebacker that only comes around every so often.

fair enough. i feel the same way about wanting either one with the 1st rounder - both will be impact NFL players. for me it's kind of pointless to debate who is better b/c they're both ballers - i just have to stand up for spikes when people knock him. i like them both equally to be honest - but i think mcclain has a better chance of being off the board when we pick so i'm going spikes.

hooshoops
12-11-2009, 12:56 AM
i see way better instincts and awareness with mcclain...we probably will have a shot at spikes and i sure as hell hope we pass...

ckparrothead
12-11-2009, 01:38 AM
Spikes is better in coverage and it's not even close.

BobDole
12-11-2009, 01:40 AM
Spikes is better in coverage and it's not even close.

wow i'm not the only one on the entire planet that thinks that. that makes me feel better. thanks guy.

ckparrothead
12-11-2009, 02:54 AM
I'm not sure how anyone could walk away having studied the pair, thinking that McClain is better in coverage.

Spikes doesn't GENERALLY get dominated by blockers. When he's at his worst, it's because he's over aggressive and prone to over pursuit. Or, he can also lose that aggression of his at times and this tends to get him in trouble when he does face blockers on these occasions. Those are probably instances where he doesn't quite read the play as well as usual and know where to go. It happens to every linebacker including Rolondo McClain.

Listen, everyone has their opinion. If I were to show you a cutup of Rolondo McClain's game against Auburn, you'd come away thinking the guy was a virtual waste of space. If I were to show up a cutup of Brandon Spikes against Alabama, then you'd come away thinking the guy can be taken out by linemen and he overpursues the ball.

What it gets down to when it comes to the differences between the two, is immediately I disagree with the notion that McClain has better instincts than Spikes, immediately I disagree with the notion that McClain is better in coverage than Spikes. I think that Spikes is not only the more physical player but he runs and plays with a sense of urgency and backyard brawlishness that too often Rolondo McClain lacks. I think that Spikes is a little bit better equipped at getting himself out of trouble, change of direction, etc. I think he reads the action better when tied up by linemen, reads the football and reacts to it instantly, where a LITTLE bit too often McClain will be late to reading what's going on with the football. I think that Spikes is a frisky blitzer where McClain uses his length more in the blitz and is a little more placid.

I have Spikes ahead of McClain. It's not a big deal. They're both very fine players. I haven't seen McClain close up but I have attended spring drills and seen Brandon Spikes up close and personal, felt him on the practice field. I know that football is his passion, that he goes 100 mph on the practice field just like he does during the games, and that he's every bit of whatever he's listed at because he's very large and beastly.

I'm not a Florida fan at all. If anything I'm anti-Florida. I practically jumped around exuberantly when I saw Tim Tebow crying and getting his head stroked after losing to Alabama. Oh I hate that Nick Saban won that game and I hope he eats a big bucket of sloppy post-Chinese food sh!t, but I also can't stand Florida fans at times. I have no dog in this race. I just like Spikes a little more right now. Sue me.

TedSlimmJr
12-11-2009, 04:25 AM
I'm not sure how anyone could walk away having studied the pair, thinking that McClain is better in coverage.

Spikes doesn't GENERALLY get dominated by blockers. When he's at his worst, it's because he's over aggressive and prone to over pursuit. Or, he can also lose that aggression of his at times and this tends to get him in trouble when he does face blockers on these occasions. Those are probably instances where he doesn't quite read the play as well as usual and know where to go. It happens to every linebacker including Rolondo McClain.

Listen, everyone has their opinion. If I were to show you a cutup of Rolondo McClain's game against Auburn, you'd come away thinking the guy was a virtual waste of space. If I were to show up a cutup of Brandon Spikes against Alabama, then you'd come away thinking the guy can be taken out by linemen and he overpursues the ball.

What it gets down to when it comes to the differences between the two, is immediately I disagree with the notion that McClain has better instincts than Spikes, immediately I disagree with the notion that McClain is better in coverage than Spikes. I think that Spikes is not only the more physical player but he runs and plays with a sense of urgency and backyard brawlishness that too often Rolondo McClain lacks. I think that Spikes is a little bit better equipped at getting himself out of trouble, change of direction, etc. I think he reads the action better when tied up by linemen, reads the football and reacts to it instantly, where a LITTLE bit too often McClain will be late to reading what's going on with the football. I think that Spikes is a frisky blitzer where McClain uses his length more in the blitz and is a little more placid.

I have Spikes ahead of McClain. It's not a big deal. They're both very fine players. I haven't seen McClain close up but I have attended spring drills and seen Brandon Spikes up close and personal, felt him on the practice field. I know that football is his passion, that he goes 100 mph on the practice field just like he does during the games, and that he's every bit of whatever he's listed at because he's very large and beastly.

I'm not a Florida fan at all. If anything I'm anti-Florida. I practically jumped around exuberantly when I saw Tim Tebow crying and getting his head stroked after losing to Alabama. Oh I hate that Nick Saban won that game and I hope he eats a big bucket of sloppy post-Chinese food sh!t, but I also can't stand Florida fans at times. I have no dog in this race. I just like Spikes a little more right now. Sue me.


CK....that "waste of space" was named the SEC Defensive Player of the Week after the Auburn game.....after racking up 12 tackles....a sack...a TFL...and a PBU...

He was also the one that got up and helped Woodall bat the ball down in the endzone on Auburn's hail mary at the end.....waste of space?

I know we each have our own opinions......and it's not as if McClain doesn't have things that he could work on....but c'mon man...

Basically, the only thing Auburn did at the beginning was use a bunch of misdirection plays to get McClain flowing in one direction....because Malzahn knows you can't block McClain and keep him blocked.....wasn't as successful after Kirby Smart made the adjustments...

McClain gets his hands on more footballs and tips them in coverage than Spikes....he's caused more INT's for his teammates by doing so....

They're both good linebackers....but I also think McClain has yet to peak as a football player....Spikes has already peaked IMO....and I think he could get stronger.....should help him defeat more blocks...

I think it's a mistake to misinterpret McClain's "controlled aggression" for lack of intensity or hustle.....Spikes intensity is obviously more visible....

McClain is an intense, smart football player and film junkie....he's a coach on the field....and I have seen him close up....and he can lay the wood....I've seen him get up shivering from a big hit in practice simply because he relishes the contact....but he's more interested in making the sure tackle than missing it due to poor technique looking for the highlight hit....he's coached that way.

I have a hard time even stamping a solid 1st round grade on Spikes....but it may all be insignificant anyway.....McClain is leaning towards coming back.

ckparrothead
12-11-2009, 11:14 AM
Having just watched every single snap of McClain's Auburn game, cut up with zero filler in between, I find the whole thing about "controlled aggression" to be rather hilarious.

The guy was slow to the plays, period. His SEC Defensive Player of the Week award was an empty accomplishment if you ask me.

hooshoops
12-11-2009, 11:48 AM
i only got to watch the first half of the bama auburn game but i will say i didn't see a whole lot from mcclain in that game...seemed like he wasn't around the ball much and was late in lateral pursuit...but it also looked like slimm said that auburn schemed a lot of misdirection to eliminate mcclains impact

but i loved what i saw in the sec championship game...

ckparrothead
12-11-2009, 12:31 PM
The thing about the misdirection is, it schemed him out because he was slower to read it than he could have been.

I'm telling you I put together a list of 28 plays from the game that stood out to me bad or good. I've done the same with Brandon Spikes. I have no dog in this race, I just let the plays come to me. The plays that I left out, the player didn't do anything notable but he didn't necessarily have the opportunity to do anything notable, nor did I see an error or flaw in his technique, or a particular positive in his technique that shows a good natural attribute. I don't know the exact numbers but of the 28 plays of McClain's from that Auburn game, I think something like 22 or 23 had a negative for me.

I don't care that the guy helped knock the ball down in the end zone on the hail mary. About the easiest thing in football is to take a 6'4" player and tell him to wait in the end zone for a hail mary, run up to the ball like it's a punt and knock the thing down.

I know this. Last night at the awards banquet they kept talking to Nick Saban and Mack Brown because of the upcoming championship. When Nick Saban talked about leadership on the team, and his leaders on defense, he didn't mention Rolondo McClain, if I remember correctly. And watching the games, I don't see overwhelming evidence that McClain is the guy that gets everyone lined up right and/or is in charge of the defense. He might be but I'm not sure I see it. It only takes a few minutes of watching a Florida game before you know for sure that the defense is being run on the field by Brandon Spikes.

t2thejz
12-12-2009, 02:20 AM
I know this. Last night at the awards banquet they kept talking to Nick Saban and Mack Brown because of the upcoming championship. When Nick Saban talked about leadership on the team, and his leaders on defense, he didn't mention Rolondo McClain, if I remember correctly. And watching the games, I don't see overwhelming evidence that McClain is the guy that gets everyone lined up right and/or is in charge of the defense. He might be but I'm not sure I see it. It only takes a few minutes of watching a Florida game before you know for sure that the defense is being run on the field by Brandon Spikes.

CK I always respect your opinion and appreciate all of the insight you give us on this board. But I have been following Saban a long time now since I am a Dolphins and Alabama fan and I have not seen him give more praise to a player than Mclain. Every player on this fantastic Crimson Tide defense would be the first to point to Mclain as not only the leader on D but the leader of the team. I do not know if you have watched any more film on him than just the Auburn game and I do not know what you are seeing. Watch the SEC championship game again. Every audible Tebow makes Mclain is countering. When a player makes a mistake on D you see Mclain running over to that player. There was an article where Saban called Mclain into his office and told him that he is one of the first players Saban has a hard time yelling at because when Mclain makes a mistake in practice he gets onto himself so much.

I understand people need to defend Spikes. He probably doesnt deserve most of these negative statements. Bottom line is Spikes is a warrior on the field. My only problem with him is he seems to have a hard time staying healthy.

I find a lot of these statements about Mclain to be crazy though. Maybe it is just because I have seen every game he has played and I'm a bit of a homer but the guy has a great work ethic is a smart football player. Tough...has played hurt numerous times. To me he is the perfect Middle LBer

Namor
12-13-2009, 11:49 PM
Last year at a alumni dinner with my dad and friend Steadman Shealy,Saban
came by our table and talked football with us for about 20 minutes.
My dad told Nick I was a huge Dolphin fan.Nick had alot of good things to say
about the the Dolphins especially JT and Zach.
When the subject of Rolondo came up,Nick's eyes lit up...He said Rolondo was
the most intelligent and physically gifted defensive player he had ever coached.
He said Rolondo's film study and prep work rivaled Zach Thomas's.
Watch any Bama game and you can see who is calling the line shifts and backer
placements.

ticophin
12-14-2009, 07:59 PM
And which of the two would most adequately fit our Defensive scheme-other LBs? Would they be a major upgrade over Crowder-Ayodele, and would they start ahead of them? Is ILB our most Glaring need on Defense? Not a dominating NT, a great safety, or a QB hunting OLB-DE?

Namor
12-15-2009, 12:12 AM
And which of the two would most adequately fit our Defensive scheme-other LBs? Would they be a major upgrade over Crowder-Ayodele, and would they start ahead of them? Is ILB our most Glaring need on Defense? Not a dominating NT, a great safety, or a QB hunting OLB-DE?

McClain and Spikes both would start over our two inside linebackers.

Dolphin Dave
12-16-2009, 11:21 AM
I would take either one of them in a heart beat. I think there is a lot more hype right now on McClain and think that will make him a top 10 pick. There is a better chance that Spikes will be there when we pick and would be a HUGE upgrade to over Akin.

ckparrothead
12-16-2009, 11:25 AM
I think that Spikes is a better fit for our defense.

Lord Of Miami
12-16-2009, 02:47 PM
McClain is WAY better. McClain could go Top 10, Spikes is a 2nd Rounder. RT @BOLTHYPE (http://twitter.com/BOLTHYPE): Who's a better #NFL (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23NFL) prospect, Spikes or McClain? 11:12 AM Dec 10th (http://twitter.com/DraftCountdown/status/6540619872) from UberTwitter (http://ubertwitter.com/)

That's Scott Wrigh's take on it http://twitter.com/DraftCountdown.

Mine is very much the same, but i do think Spikes is worth a 1st round pick.

But after the eye gouging thing it's safe to say some teams would not even draft him, and their's a real good chance Miami would be one of them.

ckparrothead
12-16-2009, 05:21 PM
I guarantee that no team in the NFL will take Spikes off their board due to the eye gouging incident.

One of the most overblown incidents I've seen this year. And I hate the Gators, for the record.

Lord Of Miami
12-16-2009, 05:51 PM
I guarantee that no team in the NFL will take Spikes off their board due to the eye gouging incident.

One of the most overblown incidents I've seen this year. And I hate the Gators, for the record.

LOL get real ,No way you can prove that Spikes is off some teams boards or not.

Their are alot of teams that don't like or draft PUNKS and don't like or draft people with such bad judgement and that would do such a dumb thing when he should of known the world was watching.

We all know you "hate the Gators" but your also a HUGE Spikes fan.

ckparrothead
12-16-2009, 06:05 PM
LOL get real ,No way you can prove that Spikes is off some teams boards or not.

Their are alot of teams that don't like or draft PUNKS and don't like or draft people with such bad judgement and that would do such a dumb thing when he should of known the world was watching.

That kind of crap happens all the time. He just happened to get caught on video. A lot of coaches even like that stuff. It's just an annoyance, these players aren't necessarily trying to hurt one another. They just get under each others' skin.

I can't prove that teams didn't take him off their board because of the eye gouging thing, but I know with 100% certainty that you will never, ever prove that a single team took him off their board because of that incident. Never. Not one team.


We all know you "hate the Gators" but your also a HUGE Spikes fan.

Which perhaps should tell you just how good Spikes looked to my eyes when you consider that my becoming infatuated with him as a prospect in the first place was less likely due to my dislike for the Gators.

Lord Of Miami
12-16-2009, 06:31 PM
That kind of crap happens all the time. He just happened to get caught on video. A lot of coaches even like that stuff. It's just an annoyance, these players aren't necessarily trying to hurt one another. They just get under each others' skin.

I can't prove that teams didn't take him off their board because of the eye gouging thing, but I know with 100% certainty that you will never, ever prove that a single team took him off their board because of that incident. Never. Not one team.



Which perhaps should tell you just how good Spikes looked to my eyes when you consider that my becoming infatuated with him as a prospect in the first place was less likely due to my dislike for the Gators.

At this point were just talking to talk cuzz, i think he's a top 25 player just not top 15.

That may happen alot BUT he's the only player in my 30 years of watching football that was so dumb to do it in the open like that.

Again that shows he's a punk and not very bright and has very bad judgement skills to do that in the open so everyone could see ....................and their are teams that will not draft guys who do that, and that's just common sense, so theirs no need for me to prove it.

phinfan33
12-18-2009, 12:05 AM
well,i was doing some thinking last night about both these players,and i'll be honest,i've never watched McClain play...what i know about him is what i've read in here,football mags,and stats i've read on him...now i have watched Spikes play,and the guy's a baller...i've seen him make hard hitting tackles,tackles for losses,i've seen him get sacks,and INT's,which he's returned for TD's...now here's my thing about these 2...i know,or i'm pretty damn certain that McClain can play in a 3-4 Defense,being how he plays in Sabans 3-4 4-3 hybrid,but....if we end up drafting Spikes...can he make the transition to a 3-4? does he have the smarts to do that,or is he better suited for a 4-3? also...who's the more all around complete versatile ILB,and who'd be better suited for us?...just some thoughts i had last night that i wanted to share with my fellow phin fans while they're still fresh in my mind...

BobDole
12-18-2009, 06:19 AM
well,i was doing some thinking last night about both these players,and i'll be honest,i've never watched McClain play...what i know about him is what i've read in here,football mags,and stats i've read on him...now i have watched Spikes play,and the guy's a baller...i've seen him make hard hitting tackles,tackles for losses,i've seen him get sacks,and INT's,which he's returned for TD's...now here's my thing about these 2...i know,or i'm pretty damn certain that McClain can play in a 3-4 Defense,being how he plays in Sabans 3-4 4-3 hybrid,but....if we end up drafting Spikes...can he make the transition to a 3-4? does he have the smarts to do that,or is he better suited for a 4-3? also...who's the more all around complete versatile ILB,and who'd be better suited for us?...just some thoughts i had last night that i wanted to share with my fellow phin fans while they're still fresh in my mind...

the gators played a 3-3-5 on defense so spikes will have no problem playing in a 3-4. not to mention the fact the guy is 6'3" and almost 260 lbs - he's built for the 3-4.

3rdandinches
12-18-2009, 06:55 AM
I really want McClain but I doubt he's there and if Spikes happens to be it would be real tough for us to pass. I could see if J.Hughes or maybe a top FS is still available that we go in a different direction but I do believe Spikes will be the pick.

ckparrothead
12-18-2009, 05:26 PM
Well, I was going to wait for a big rollout of some sort for this stuff but I'll just go ahead and link you guys.

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwMCgaxKo

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5voTSl9uEI

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

BTW, Universal Draft is the draft evaluation website that myself, Boomer and Conuficus work on.

TedSlimmJr
12-18-2009, 06:21 PM
Well, I was going to wait for a big rollout of some sort for this stuff but I'll just go ahead and link you guys.

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwMCgaxKo

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5voTSl9uEI

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

BTW, Universal Draft is the draft evaluation website that myself, Boomer and Conuficus work on.


Several things that I have previously mentioned about both linebackers are clearly evident in this footage...

First....I don't see how anyone could watch both of these players in coverage and honestly come away with the observation that Spikes is better than McClain in coverage......McClain is very assignment sound in his responsibilities and has keen awareness....has a knack for tipping passes and/or just being in the right place....and shows good technique in man coverage...

Spikes almost looks to be playing a "spy" type role in mostly in coverage...staying close to the LOS scrimmage and reading the QB's eyes...waiting to jump up in the air and snag/tip the ball in the quarterbacks passing lane.....and was knocked flat on his *** on one play when he tried to knock the TE off his route....

As far as block shedding....McClain disengages from blocks with ease...you cannot block him and keep him blocked...especially at the second level.....which you can with Spikes (see the long screen pass to Ingram,etc.)

Spikes takes on blocks and fights THROUGH them better.....but often neutralizes himself by doing this....likes to take on blocks with his shoulder...but many times uses the wrong shoulder and takes himself out of the play....attitude and physicality are a plus...

Spikes is a very effective blitzer...which is due primarily to the way he fights through blocks at the LOS....McClain would rather go around the block on a blitz as opposed to fighting through it...which in turn keeps him free to remain in the play and chase down a ball carrier....

Spikes is a more aggressive blitzer...McClain is appears more ready to "react".....which IMO can be attributed to playing 2 gaps in Saban's scheme..

McClain is clearly faster and plays better sideline to sideline....and makes more solo tackles...Spikes likes to clean up on an already "tackled" ballcarrier for lack of a better term.....

Malzahn did a good job in the Auburn game against McClain by not only using misdirection to get him flowing in one direction...but also sending a guy on a pass route to "threaten" McClain's zone....and sneaking a guy out of the backfield, etc. on the backside to keep McClain from being able to run and make plays...

Good stuff...

hooshoops
12-19-2009, 01:18 AM
wow...that's good stuff ck

watching that mcclain doesn't play as physical as i thought...doesn't play as physical as his measurables would suggest

i like the way he flows down the los though and i agree with slimm when he says mcclain shows better awareness and i think is more effective in coverage than spikes...i also think mcclain sheds/gets off of blockers better than spikes...an awful lot of spikes getting locked up by a lineman and driven out of the play or never getting off the block

i also like mcclains speed but i'd like to see him take on blockers with more physicality...an awful lot of finesse on that footage you posted

spikes is more physical and shows a better motor especially when in pursuit of the ball down field...mcclain at times looks a little bit like he's going half speed when the ball is already by him in pursuit

i think the upside has to go to mcclain though...but now i see why ireland told me spikes was a "physical player" and i do like how spikes attacks the play when it's in front of him...

please keep that kind of stuff coming...

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 01:48 AM
And of the two completely differing opinions, hooshoops is the winner.

Spikes is definitely better at reading the QB's eyes. That's not even a question. He's also much, much better as a blitzer. Also not even close to a question. Also the much more physical player. Also has a higher motor. Also Spikes gets off blocks much more consistently. I'm not even sure how anyone could come away watching the two and think otherwise.

And lastly, when you really watch a bunch of Rolondo McClain and a bunch of Brandon Spikes, what really strikes you is the discipline of the players surrounding them. Nick Saban once said about Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor that he would play a defense that is designed to let the two biggest playmakers (Zach and JT) make plays. Everyone else said Zach couldn't cut it in Nick's pseudo 3-4 defense. Then, when they actually played, Zach had statistically two of the finest years he's had in the pros. Afterwards Zach said he found that in Nick's scheme, he was way more protected than he had been in Wannstedt's schemes.

The defense was literally designed to free Zach up to the ball to make plays. What strikes me about the Bama defense is this defense is DEFINITELY designed to free McClain to the ball so he can make a play. You watch his defenders funnel the ball toward him, seal the edge, tie up blockers, etc. It was hard to find footage, at some points, of Rolondo McClain having to get off a block in order to make the play.

On the other hand, watch Florida, and you see a defense that is built much differently. On a defense, some guys are played in positions that are meant to disrupt, and some guys are played in positions that are meant to clean up. Brandon Spikes is definitely a guy that is put in position to disrupt. I think that's a position that is more kin to what Miami currently plays.

hooshoops
12-19-2009, 02:02 AM
i don't necessarily think that spikes gets off blockers all that effectively...i agree with slimm that he likes to drive the shoulder into the oncoming blocker but i don't really see him getting off blocks once engaged and in some of those clips i see him getting driven completely out of the play and never disengaging...

but i do agree that there's an awful lot of footage of mcclain roaming freely with no traffic to have to work through and not a whole lot of guys getting to the second level that he has to shed but for my eyes when someone does get to him he seems to get off the block easier and doesn't seem to take himself out of as many plays as spikes...

and i absolutely agree that spikes is the more effective blitzer...

one more thing...i absolutely trust mcclain more to maintain his responsibilities whether it be in coverage or as a run defender...i can see spikes being more of a freelance player but spikes may well be the bigger playmaker of the 2

and we really need a playmaker at ilb

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 04:50 AM
I have to fully disagree when it comes to getting off blocks. I watch the two sections side by side and in Rolondo McClain I see a guy that is very inconsistent in dealing with traffic. All too often he either waits for the blocker to deal the first blow, or throttles down and doesn't try and get off the block to make a play on the ball.

You can tell that the guy is just not as comfortable dealing with blockers. He's got a ton of physical ability, and so very often he's got his eyes on the ball instead of on the blockers, and he just feels his way through the blocks, reacting and using his strength, hands and feet to get off the block and get to the ball. The problem? You can't get away with that s much in the pros. You have to be aware of everything, both the ball and the blockers, and you have to have a plan for defeating blocks. You can't just wait for them to get into your body and then use your athleticism to get off the block. I say he's uncomfortable with blockers because on the occasions when he has to look at the blocker and figure out how to deal with him, he's highly indecisive and very uncomfortable.

Now, I'm not saying Brandon Spikes doesn't have his kinks. Against Bama he seemed to care more about dealing the blow to the blocker than about where the ball was, on at least two occasions. The announcer actually praised him on one but I thought Spikes should have ducked for the play on the ball instead of overshooting to hit a blocker.

Here are some examples of what I'm talking about with McClain. Fast forward to about 4:20 in the first McClain video, go High Def, and I'll take you through.

Play 1: If you watch at the end, he's much more absorbed in dealing the final blow to #5 than getting off to make a play on the ball.

Play 2: No blockers actually look for him on this one, he does an OK job fighting through traffic to push the ball. This play probably shouldn't be in here, some of these plays are a little bit filler simply because watching McClain play you don't find all that many instances of him having to fight blocks to the ball.

Play 3: He waits for the blocker to come in on him and make first contact, barely extending his arms in front of him.

Play 4: Again he waits for the OL get completely into his body for a bear hug before disengaging.

Play 5: This time he does an excellent job of moving his feet and extending his arms to prevent the block from ever forming.

Play 6: This is as much a confusing choice as one of the aforementioned Spikes plays, he gets into the hole and opts to hit the guard rather than hit the ball. The guard wasn't aware of him until just before McClain hit him, so he could have gone for the ball.

Play 7: He moved his way into the action instead of waiting, he just got tied up...his plan for getting through the blockers was ineffective.

Play 8: Truly confusing, obviously the receiver is running a pick route, but either he doesn't recognize it or the receiver is his long lost cousin and he really, really, really wanted to give him a bear hug to tell him how much he missed him. Sarcasm aside, another example of letting the blocker get into him instead of having a plan.

Play 9: Another good job of moving his feet into the block and extending his arms to get around it, all while keeping an eye on the ball. Very nice work.

Play 10: He does an good job here, using his feet to make sure the OL doesn't have a clean path on him, and using his hands to disengage.

Play 11: Stays tied up with the blocker for the entire play and then some. Shows good strength throwing the blocker to the ground after the play but what good did that do?

Play 12: An example of what I was talking about happens when he has to look at a blocker and plan how to defeat him. He decides to juke the block, but loses sight of the ball as he decided on his plan. His juke took him out of contention on the play and then he fell down, showing a little discomfort with heavy traffic.

Play 13: This is a perfect example of what he can expect in the pros if he keeps waiting for the blocks to come into him first before doing anything. He's not delivering the first blow, he's barely getting his arms up before the blocker gets into him. As a result, he's tied up indefinitely with the guard while the ball goes god knows where.

Play 14: Another example of waiting for the blockers to deal him blows and just using his size and athleticism to absorb the blows and move on while he keeps his eye on the ball.

Play 15: This is an awareness and negotiation of traffic issue, he isn't aware of the blocker to his side and can't negotiate through the bodies, falls down.

Play 16: He definitely delivers the blow this time, which is good, but in doing so he loses the ball.

Play 17: Mostly he just takes a bad angle to the ball, here...which is a separate issue.

Play 18: Does a pretty good job in this one stepping up to the blow, stoning the blocker and keeping an eye on the ball, an effective bottle cap.

Play 19: Heads into this block completely flat footed. Predictably gets tied up while the ball goes elsewhere.

Play 20: He moved into the block and extended his hands, he covered the outside lane and when Tebow cut inside he had no choice but to try and fight through the block and he fought with strength but just couldn't get by it. My one complaint is he lost sight of the ball while he engaged the blocker and he throttled down, kept his arms engaged while the ball went right under his nose at the end.

Play 21: Not a bad job here, filling the gap and tying up the fullback, forcing the ball elsewhere. Problem is, the fullback got the better of him and eventually knocked him to the ground. Again, not moving his feet enough.

Play 22: Another example of an almost complete non-willingness to use his hands to avoid the block. This block wouldn't look out of place if they were two mountain rams butting horns to fight for dominance, but using your hands avoids getting you tied up like this.

Play 23: Again, very slow to recognize the pick route, hesitating into paralysis while the pick develops. Obviously this is something Houston Nutt identified in his game and decided to use to his advantage in this game as it's happened a few times.

Play 24: While he's still not using his hands and arms adequately, at least on this one he didn't get caught flat-footed by the block and was able to have success bouncing off it toward the ball.

Play 25: How did you get blocked out of making this play Rolondo? I don't know, sir. Where are your hands? Down here at my waist. Is that where they should be? No, sir. End of lesson.

Play 26: No complaints here. He had to fight through a lot of trash to try getting to the ball and he kept his feet moving, his arms extended, and he used his hands to move beyond blockers.

Play 27: Does a good job, again, keeping his arms extended and not giving anything on the blocker. The ball sort of walks into Rolondo, but you can't fault him for that. One does wonder what would have happened if the ball went to McClain's left, would he have gotten off the block?

Play 28: Barely belongs in this section, I'll be honest there weren't that many plays where blockers got a good look at Rolondo and then engaged him, so this play is in here mostly to fill out the section as all he had to do was dodge a speed bump.

Now, I could be JUST as critical of Brandon Spikes...and indeed, I am...but the fact of the matter is when I do the same exercise I find that Spikes more consistently deals the blow, keeps his feet moving, keeps eyes on both the blocker and the ball before the block, etc.

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 04:51 AM
Just so you don't think I'm being unfair, here's a critique of Spikes' tape.


Play 1: Has his feet moving and uses his arms before the block, on the move.

Play 2: Same thing as McClain, doesn't get his arms up to keep the blocker off his body. He's got his eyes on the ball, not dealing with the blocker properly.

Play 3: This one still confuses me. He does everything proper from the standpoint of handling the blocker, delivering the blow, using his hands, keeping on the move, etc...and he's effectively setting the edge of the defense. But, at the expense of straight up choosing not to make a play on the ball carrier? This kind of shows his role in the defense a little bit. He's more of a disrupter than a collector of tackles.

Play 4: I didn't fault Rolondo for doing this and I won't fault Brandon for it, either. He moved beyond the block and into a gap, forcing the runner to the inside where there should be more help. But, #40 and #94 didn't really do an adequate job backing him up. There is some question of whether he overran the play, depending on his responsibilities, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable saying for sure.

Play 5: He does a good job of keeping an eye on the ball, recognizing a blocker and delivering the blow. He didn't use his hands as well as he could have in his blow, but he delivered the first strike and that's why he was able to stay free enough to come at the ball.

Play 6: This is really an excellent job dealing with a blocker. There's no hesitation and he keeps his feet moving, uses his hands to get beyond the blocker on the move and give himself the best chance of getting into the play.

Play 7: He tends to strike the first blow on blockers but if there's a complaint, it's that he's not using his hands well enough and relying on shoulders instead.

Play 8: Another fantastic job of moving into the block, extending his arms, making first impact, being aggressive and keeping an eye on the ball. As many have noticed in the past, he plays a little out of control sometimes with his aggression and in this case once he saw the ball go down, he shouldn't have thrown the blocker to the ground so blatantly, and he also has to watch his hands to the facemask.

Play 9: Leans into the block well and gets his arms out before contact, keeping his spot and forcing the ball inside to where there is help (unfortunately the help doesn't do so good a job again). Doesn't do a good enough job disengaging as the ball came through the gap.

Play 10: Another example of him choosing to set the edge instead of making a play on the ball. This has to be schematic. It's so out of sorts. I really do disagree with the notion that he's a freelancer. What you see on this play and the other play isn't the mark of a selfish player. It's the mark of a selfless player, erring on the side of setting up his teammates to make the play. Spikes does more things that are selfless in nature, which basically means accomplishing something so that someone else can make the play on the ball, than Rolondo McClain. No doubt in my mind.

Play 11: Really an excellent job keeping his eye on the ball through a block, disengaging and making a play on the ball. Fine job.

Play 12: This play might not really belong in this section, he only dealt with traffic at the very end of the play as he was making a play on the ball.

Play 13: He found the gap and he ran to it, didn't allow an OL to move him out of it, leaving the blocker looking like a shovel that ran into a rock.

Play 14: Confused as to where the blow was coming from. He thought he had a blocker identified but then someone else got him and Spikes allowed the OL to get right into him. He had to, not unlike McClain, rely on his natural talent to get off the contact but in the pros if you let a guy get into you first, you're often just plain done, regardless of your physical ability.

Play 15: Truly an excellent job. Stays on the balls of his feet, extends his arms, delivers the blow, and then runs by the blocker to make a play on the ball.

Play 16: Negotiating heavy traffic, he ends up leaving himself open for a blocker to get right into him and deliver the first blow. This happened because he had to knife close in on an engaged blocker and defender and he used his arms to swim by the two without losing speed, but he couldn't recover in time to get a good plan going on the next obstacle.

Play 17: Gets his hands up adequately as he moves into the first strike, but most importantly he keeps his arms fully extended, keeping the blocker off his body, and his feet moving, which allows him to dominate the block.

Play 18: Another example of finding the right gap and filling it, then not allowing a blocker to move you out of it, forcing the ball carrier away from where he should be and (hopefully) into help. Problem is his first strike is more of a shoulder blow which only guarantees that you're not going to have much maneuverability out of the block. He gets the blocker on the ground of course but that's just his physical gifts doing the talking.

Play 19: The story here isn't how he dealt with the blocker. That was actually really tremendous work. The story here is about false steps. Try as I might, I can't figure out what he saw that made him take a few steps to the left. He barely missed making a play on the ball but it was a function of his false steps at the beginning of the play, not his dealing with an OL who was aiming to pummel him...he dealt with the OL fantastically but he was already just a little too far out of the play.

Play 20: He lets I believe it's Vlachos get right into him without using his hands, which again is a pet peeve. But, much like McClain, physical gifts will get you out of fully engaged blocks that a lack of technique got you into in the first place.

Play 21: Truly a superb job when you consider he had to deal with two OLs that were separately aimed at him during this play. He really kept his head on a swivel, his feet moving, his arms extended, and he got around both blocks. What's the rest of the defense doing? Two OLs lock onto one LB and someone else can't make a play?

Play 22: Only an adequate job keeping his feet moving before the block and getting his hands up, but excellent use of hands and feet after the initial strike. That's sort of a bad/good overall grade.

Play 23: Much like the play where McClain found the hole and took on the FB in the hole, that is what Spikes does on this play. Except where the FB dominated McClain and eventually got him on the ground, Spikes is physically dominating the lead blocker (which happens to be a TE) in the hole. Unfortunately, he doesn't do a very good job getting his hands extended.

Play 24: A really good job here keeping his left arm extended in traffic to keep everyone off him, allowing him to stay off blocks and get after the ball. He overpursued a little which left his tackle looking a little speed bump-ish, but that's really a separate issue from dealing with blockers.

Play 25: Doesn't do a good job of getting his arms up before this block, but met the blow with an aggressive blow of his own, for sort of a stalemate, which allowed him to keep one hand free to get after the ball. Not a good technique, but not a total fail.

Play 26: I sort of knew someone was going to bite on this one. He actually did a really good job dealing with the blocker on this screen play. He kept his arms extended and his feet moving, had a plan to deal with the blocker, everything you could ask for IMO. Two things you have to keep in mind on this play. One is, he started out on the back side of this play with coverage responsibility on the left side of the field. That's a long way to come over, from the middle of the hash marks to the sideline, to chase a screen, while negotiating an aimed OL on the way. I think he did a good job even threatening the play to begin with. The second thing is, he was blatantly held on the play! The OL has his shoulder grabbed, and turns it from Spikes' side, and then to top it off he dives straight at the back of Spikes' legs and clips him. Should have been a penalty.

Play 27: Again, excellent work here. He's poised on the balls of his feet, leaning into the blow and delivering with his hands and arms extended, keeping his feet moving and this allows him to get off the block and head toward the ball.

Play 28: On this play, he does a little bit more of avoiding traffic and blocks than he does taking them on. He gets to the side of the blocking and lunges at the runner from the side, making the tackle.

jim1
12-19-2009, 07:48 AM
Well, I was going to wait for a big rollout of some sort for this stuff but I'll just go ahead and link you guys.

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwMCgaxKo

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5voTSl9uEI

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

BTW, Universal Draft is the draft evaluation website that myself, Boomer and Conuficus work on.

Great work. Actually the one guy who really seemed to catch my eye in those clips is Carlos Dunlap. I like the way that he sheds blockers, and he moves around like a big cat. Great movement for a guy of his size, surprising lateral movemnt. He seems to give good effort, I'm surprised that his stats don't reflect that. Seems like a boom or bust type, but the talent is there.

MP-Omnis
12-19-2009, 08:12 AM
Great work. Actually the one guy who really seemed to catch my eye in those clips is Carlos Dunlap. I like the way that he sheds blockers, and he moves around like a big cat. Great movement for a guy of his size, surprising lateral movemnt. He seems to give good effort, I'm surprised that his stats don't reflect that. Seems like a boom or bust type, but the talent is there.

I'd rather have Jerry Hughes than Carlos Duncelap.

RustyGator
12-19-2009, 08:57 AM
I'm not as high on Carlos Dunlap as the scouts are. Sometimes these "scouts" just look at physical stats and that's it (i.e., DHB last year). Don't get me wrong, Dunlap is built for success...but he's kind of a premadona. He's definitely boom or bust...per game. It's obvious that he's a selfish person, given that he got piss-*** drunk just a few days before SECCG...he only cares about the "green" and once he gets it, I question his motivation afterward.

I love Spikes. I think it's lazy for people to compare him to Crowder though (since they both come from UF). The intensity and leadership that Spikes brings is 3-fold over Crowder. Crowder never showed the type of leadership that Spikes shows...not now, and not when at UF a few years back. Spikes will be a much more successful linebacker in the NFL than Crowder. Whether or not Spikes is the answer for the Dolphins, however, that's a different story.

I don't have much of a comparison to McClain though. I've heard great things about him, but haven't seen him play enough to draw a comparison. Obviously, he's very talented though.

MP-Omnis
12-19-2009, 11:05 AM
Yeah, we can't afford a JaMarcus Russel type of player.

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 12:10 PM
Great work. Actually the one guy who really seemed to catch my eye in those clips is Carlos Dunlap. I like the way that he sheds blockers, and he moves around like a big cat. Great movement for a guy of his size, surprising lateral movemnt. He seems to give good effort, I'm surprised that his stats don't reflect that. Seems like a boom or bust type, but the talent is there.

I agree, he stands out to me even when I'm not trying to watch him at all.

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 12:11 PM
I love Spikes. I think it's lazy for people to compare him to Crowder though (since they both come from UF).

VERY lazy.

However, one thing they have in common aside from being from UF, being african american, and having dreads, is they're both unselfish players. They both do the dirty work that sets other people up to make the play.

phinfan33
12-19-2009, 12:27 PM
CK,after reading your posts..i'm giving you a direct order to quit your job in equities,and go take a job as a scout with our beloved Dolphins...do you understand me?

TedSlimmJr
12-19-2009, 12:59 PM
As good as these cutups are....they're still only a sample....there's still much more evidence out there....

Maybe both players games against Kentucky.... (where McClain single handedly forced 3 turnovers....2 INT's and a forced fumble)....Miss St....and Tennessee (where Spikes was run through straight up by Montario Hardesty, etc.)....would make a nice addition?

Spikes is a grunt work linebacker....McClain is a playmaking linebacker...

While it may be unfair to make a sweeping generalization and lump Spikes in with Crowder....it's not as far off as you think either...

Miami needs an upgrade at ILB by acquiring one that is adept at playing in a 3-4 defense and making plays.....McClain is that guy IMO...

If by our own admission Spikes and Crowder are grunt work linebackers....then basically it's not that far fetched to assume that we'd only be changing the name on the back of the jersey with the addition of Spikes as opposed to really upgrading the position...

McClain is the guy that's more equipped to match up with TE's in man coverage and backs out of the backfield etc....which is what kills Miami's defense...

Personally, I find it hard to give Spikes a 1st round grade....the athletic upside, and upside as a football player certainly favors McClain as well IMO...

I think a team can get essentially a very comparable player to Spikes in Micah Johnson.....in fact....I really like Johnson.....I don't see any Rolando McClain's in college football...

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 01:29 PM
I think there's a certain amount of objectivity that's been lost when a guy who has 6 interceptions, 4 Touchdowns and 7 sacks over the last two years is referred to as a "grunt work linebacker".

Since you're the one bringing up the games we DIDN'T see, and then talking about how McClain is a bigger playmaker, I would think that you would be interested in seeing a statistical analysis, since the statistics tally up the games we didn't see and give us ratios as opposed to just a view of three games.

I don't know how to make a table on this code but this should work, even though it ends up reading sort of diagonal down...


Statistic
Brandon Spikes
Rolondo McClain

Tackles Per Game:
6.5
7.3

Games Per TFL:
1.3
1.1

Games Per Sack:
3.4
3.9

Games Per Interception:
4.0
9.0

Games Per Touchdown:
6.0
None

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 01:35 PM
Honestly I do see tons of physical potential in Rolondo McClain. He's very big and VERY strong. He also has good straight line speed.

On the other hand, Spikes is not quite as strong and not quite as big, though big and strong in his own right, and he has without question the better agility, motor and physicality.

Instincts and ability to read the ball and quarterback are up for debate. You know where I come out, I know where you come out.

The thing that gets me about this breakdown is, in the NFL...players get bigger and they get stronger. They don't necessarily get more agile and they don't necessarily get better motor, or more physical.

So while I agree that McClain is going to be pegged as the guy with more physical potential, I think that Spikes is the better player right now and with added strength, he could stay the better player.

And I also think that there isn't any question that while Spikes has the physicality and the comfort with blockers to play in the 3-4, Rolondo McClain is much better suited to a 4-3 Under like what Saban runs, which protects him better from blockers and funnels the ball to him, allowing him to use his size, strength, length and explosiveness to make a certain percentage of the "normal" plays turn into "big" plays.

TedSlimmJr
12-19-2009, 02:24 PM
Rather than go around in circles.....lets talk linebackers...

So exactly WHAT linebackers do you personally like inside for Miami other than Spikes?

Micah Johnson? Joe Pawelek? Sean Lee? Ryan D'Imperio? Josh Bynes? A.J. Edds? Alex Wujciak? Jared Norton? Roderick Muckelroy?

And what are your thoughts on K.J. Wright and Quan Sturdivant? Although Wright is most likely to stay in school IMO....I really like this kid....along with Josh Bynes...

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 02:42 PM
Right at this moment, I like A.J. Edds a lot...but also Bruce Carter. There's actually another Carter that has my attention, Reggie Carter of UCLA.

Then there's Dexter Davis of Arizona State, a run stopping defensive end at only 6'2" and 255 lbs or so. I keep complaining about how McClain and Spikes don't use their hands at times, well as an undersized yet effective, high motor, run stopping defensive end...Dexter knows how to keep his hands up and keep himself balanced. Balance is a big key with him, sometimes you wonder how the guy is able to stay off the ground with some of the double teams he faces. Not a big pass rusher, so I don't know if he'd be good for SOLB or not...but he drops back into zone coverage very naturally and fluidly.

I like Sturdivant but not for this defense. A lot of the guys you name, I'm not sure I like for this defense. I think I'm the only guy that isn't particularly in love with Penn State's linebackers...but I suppose I've got at least four more games of their to evaluate before I can say that for sure.

Josh Bynes I feel like could be a flatter to deceive kind of player. He's at his best when his jersey is kept clean from blockers...and he's very limited in coverage.

hooshoops
12-19-2009, 03:47 PM
hey ck, can we expect more of these cutups on other players??? like especially the ones you hear thru sources miami has interest in???

that essentially big play chart comparison surprises me as well but i still like mcclain more...more upside imo and i think he can be taught to use his hands more and use a more physical approach when engaging blockers by a good linebacker coach

a lot of those cutups of spikes in coverage were spikes basically playing at the los and reading the qbs eyes and jumping things...not much of him having to turn and run down the field with a te and handle backs down the field...

i think mcclain is much more sound in coverage both in technique and awareness but that's just me

hooshoops
12-19-2009, 03:53 PM
b/t i like bruce carter also...but is he a fit for the 3-4??? he looks like a 4-3 guy to me

ckparrothead
12-19-2009, 04:17 PM
Yes, you can expect a whole slew of cutups....available on Universal Draft. You'll have to keep checking in with UD to see the player reviews and the accompanying videos.

Right now those aren't up because I was saving them for a big writeup Boomer was going to do on Spikes and McClain. I cut those videos as a visual aid for that writeup so I didn't want to roll out with them before Boomer was ready.

Right now I've cut video on the following players...

DT Terrence Cody
DT Marvin Austin
DT Cam Thomas (was thinking of you when I did him up)
DT Brian Price
DE Dexter Davis
DE Antonio Coleman
DE Brandon Lang
DE Cameron Sheffield
DE C.J. Wilson
DE Willie Young
DE Austen Lane
DE Carlos Dunlap
DE Jermaine Cunningham
LB Brandon Spikes
LB Rolondo McClain
LB Reggie Carter
CB Alterraun Verner
CB Kareem Jackson
CB Javier Arenas
CB Joe Haden
FS Ahmad Black
FS Taylor Mays
FS Josh Pinkard
SS Major Wright
SS Justin Woodall
OT Charles Brown
OG Mike Johnson
OG Mike Pouncey
OC Markice Pouncey
TE Dennis Pitta
TE Jimmy Graham
TE Colin Peek
TE Aaron Hernandez
TE Anthony McCoy
RB Ben Tate
WR Riley Cooper
WR Damian Williams
WR Brandon LaFell
WR Taylor Price
WR Jeremy Williams
WR Chris McGaha

This is still very much at its bare infant stage, though. I don't necessarily have finished videos for all of these guys.

hooshoops
12-19-2009, 04:40 PM
what was your thoughts on antonio coleman and austen lane???

TedSlimmJr
12-19-2009, 04:43 PM
I've been watching some tape on Austen Lane and he looks like a real potential gem.....mainly his game against FBS competition vs. N.C. State..

To me he looks like he could make the transition to strongside OLB in a 3-4.....a little raw in his pass rush moves (which I attribute to lack of having to develope pass rush moves due to level of competition) but he's got a very nice bull rush...

Gets very good depth on his drops in zone coverage....in fact...a few times he dropped clear out of the screen...so it was hard to tell exactly how assignment sound he was...but it was impressive to watch..

Any player that's 6-6, 260 and runs a 4.6 is going to get my attention....and his stats over the last 2 seasons speak for themselves (127 tackles....41.5 TFL's....23 sacks...and 5 forced fumbles)...and give a strong indication of a player with some talent...

He looks like a bulkier version of Jason Taylor to me....nice upside and good motor...

He's also in some pretty good company when it comes to being nominated for the Buck Buchanan Award...given to the nations most outstanding defensive player (Jared Allen, Rashean Mathis, Dexter Coakley, Ed Hartwell, Chris Gocong, etc.)..

I'd really be interested in seeing the cuts of Sheffield and Lang...

hooshoops
12-19-2009, 04:47 PM
i went to the site yesterday...maybe i didn't go to the right places but i was looking for cutups on players and i couldn't find any...

but i only had a minute to browse

hooshoops
12-19-2009, 04:51 PM
slimm what's your thoughts on coleman???

JT-forpresident
12-19-2009, 04:55 PM
VERY lazy.

However, one thing they have in common aside from being from UF, being african american, and having dreads, is they're both unselfish players. They both do the dirty work that sets other people up to make the play.

then, why would you rather have a "disruptive" player like you call spikes that is pretty similar to what we have in channing, than having McClain, a player you know if the defence is schemed around him, he'll make a lot of plays and tackles for you ?

IMHO i'd much rather have a crowder-McClain combo than Crowder-Spikes ... and i'm just talking about the combo here, if we had another ILB than channing, playing differently, i might prefer the selection of Spikes...

TedSlimmJr
12-19-2009, 05:09 PM
slimm what's your thoughts on coleman???

I think he's the best pass rusher in the SEC along with Eric Norwood...

Although Coleman looks to be more of a 4-3 defensive end IMO....I think he's very reminiscent of Quentin Groves.....explosive off the ball and bends the arc well getting to the quarterback...

I'd love it if all these guys could project standing up....but that simply may not be the case....It'll be very interesting to watch a lot of these guys in LB drills...

j-off-her-doll
12-20-2009, 02:56 AM
Yes, you can expect a whole slew of cutups....available on Universal Draft. You'll have to keep checking in with UD to see the player reviews and the accompanying videos.

Right now those aren't up because I was saving them for a big writeup Boomer was going to do on Spikes and McClain. I cut those videos as a visual aid for that writeup so I didn't want to roll out with them before Boomer was ready.

Right now I've cut video on the following players...

DT Terrence Cody
DT Marvin Austin
DT Cam Thomas (was thinking of you when I did him up)
DT Brian Price
DE Dexter Davis
DE Antonio Coleman
DE Brandon Lang
DE Cameron Sheffield
DE C.J. Wilson
DE Willie Young
DE Austen Lane
DE Carlos Dunlap
DE Jermaine Cunningham
LB Brandon Spikes
LB Rolondo McClain
LB Reggie Carter
CB Alterraun Verner
CB Kareem Jackson
CB Javier Arenas
CB Joe Haden
FS Ahmad Black
FS Taylor Mays
FS Josh Pinkard
SS Major Wright
SS Justin Woodall
OT Charles Brown
OG Mike Johnson
OG Mike Pouncey
OC Markice Pouncey
TE Dennis Pitta
TE Jimmy Graham
TE Colin Peek
TE Aaron Hernandez
TE Anthony McCoy
RB Ben Tate
WR Riley Cooper
WR Damian Williams
WR Brandon LaFell
WR Taylor Price
WR Jeremy Williams
WR Chris McGaha

This is still very much at its bare infant stage, though. I don't necessarily have finished videos for all of these guys.


Do you take requests? From what I've seen of Micah Johnson - granted, it's been limited - I like him every bit as much as Spikes and McClain. McClain doesn't look like he enjoys tackling, and Spikes - maybe due to some of his injuries - looks a little slow. Johnson wraps up and punishes the ball carrier, and he has a suddenness that I find very impressive.

SR 7
12-20-2009, 05:10 AM
i am almost 100% sure we wont go for either one.
1) won't be in our reach/range.
2) someone can be had in the 2nd that most likely compares to them but same value can't be found in TE or NT or OLB.

Ricky4Life
12-20-2009, 10:51 AM
I like signing Karlos Dansby and drafting Micah Johnson.

RHoffman
12-21-2009, 01:06 PM
Wow, I really respect your opinion CK and I will take a look at the cutups, but I think Rolando McClain is a head and shoulders better prospect based on what I have seen as a linebackers coach than Brandon Spikes. But again, let me take a look at the film. Film doesn't lie.

hooshoops
12-21-2009, 01:48 PM
hey ck, can you put some cutups together on jermaine gresham soph and junior stuff like you did mcclain and spikes???

i'd like to see some of his stuff broken down like you did the mcclain spikes work

ckparrothead
12-21-2009, 04:20 PM
I can try.

ckparrothead
12-21-2009, 04:22 PM
Wow, I really respect your opinion CK and I will take a look at the cutups, but I think Rolando McClain is a head and shoulders better prospect based on what I have seen as a linebackers coach than Brandon Spikes. But again, let me take a look at the film. Film doesn't lie.

If you scrutinize the YouTube videos, I'd love to know what you think, especially with respect to the handling blockers sections.

phintim
12-21-2009, 04:47 PM
Hasn't Spikes been a bit injured in his college career? That would make me hesitant unless McClain has the same issue!

BobDole
12-21-2009, 05:26 PM
Hasn't Spikes been a bit injured in his college career? That would make me hesitant unless McClain has the same issue!

not until this year. he's had ticky tacky stuff all year long - nothing to be worried about though. none of it was substantial.

jlfin
12-22-2009, 12:35 AM
As a Gators fan, ya'll know its McClain and it really isn't even close.

But to everybody who is making the Spikes/Crowder comparisions, you really aren't even trying. I mean if you want to compare, be a little more original and go outside of the same school. Sorry, I just think you are taking the easy way. Spikes game is absolutely nothing like Crowder's.

McClain will be a very good MLB in the NFL, probably a Bart Scott kind of player.

Then he's not worth a top 20 pick.
I'm sorry, but Bart Scott does not impress me. He's had several games this season where he has been invisible. He was more impressive when offenses were focused on Ray Lewis and Terrell Suggs.
If the Phins were to draft McClain I would hope he is a true impact player who makes everyone around him better, not a guy (like Scott) whose play improves when he plays alongside an impact player.

bigchub22
12-23-2009, 05:29 PM
The cutups of them making and missing tackles actually made me like Mclain more than Spikes even more....to each his own I guess but I just dont agree with your analysis of these guys and this is one position I know a ton about as I played it for a long time

Namor
12-23-2009, 06:26 PM
Rolondo McClain has never played in a 4-3 alignment.
Saban runs and has always run a 3-4 with a Jack
linebacker.
In the the SECCG was only time time a extra DL man was
added to contain Tebow.
Rolondo can play the inside and go play the jack linebacker
on the outside.

TedSlimmJr
12-23-2009, 06:47 PM
Rolondo McClain has never played in a 4-3 alignment.
Saban runs and has always run a 3-4 with a Jack
linebacker.
In the the SECCG was only time time a extra DL man was
added to contain Tebow.
Rolondo can play the inside and go play the jack linebacker
on the outside.


Yes...the SECCG Saban had Eric Anders on the field to contain Tebow and shadow Hernandez on the inside shovel pass to the tight end...

Hightower also moves over and plays the Jack before he got hurt....and I think he's actually a little better at the Jack than McClain....we're going to be talking about Hightower as a 1st round pick this time next year...

Namor
12-24-2009, 02:19 AM
Yes...the SECCG Saban had Eric Anders on the field to contain Tebow and shadow Hernandez on the inside shovel pass to the tight end...

Hightower also moves over and plays the Jack before he got hurt....and I think he's actually a little better at the Jack than McClain....we're going to be talking about Hightower as a 1st round pick this time next year...

I actually think Hightower will be better than McClain,and I really think Rolondo
is one bad mamba jamma.

rushfinfan85
12-24-2009, 03:44 PM
Mcclain will not be there when we draft unless we move up which in my opinion would not be worth it and spikes is just not worth a 1st round draft pick to go into our system. to me spikes looks more of a 4-3 to where the d line takes up most of the linemen and the linebackers jerseys are clean. we need someone who can get off the blocks with good awareness. if you watched the video you see spikes running through the LOS and the ball carrier was on a sweep. i would really like to see hughes in our system someone wh gets off blocks good and can rush the passer and the johnson in 2nd round. that would give us crowder(who i personally like) johnson, hughes, and probably wake depending if we get someone through FA(morrison or dansby) that would change the lineup but that looks good to me . i think that would be a great linebackers core for years to come and with playmakers at the linbacker spot i think crowder has a more productive year next year. Also we need to bring in a coverage FS which will really help us out.

Phinatic8u
12-26-2009, 12:46 AM
I think free agency is gonna determine who we go with in the draft IMO. If we get a ILB in FA we wont get it in the 1st round. Or go S (Otgwe (sp?)) then we'll go ILB 1st round

hooshoops
12-26-2009, 12:50 AM
for my money once mcclain goes there's not another ilb worth considering with our first round pick...including spikes

MP-Omnis
01-02-2010, 03:46 AM
Spikes looked darn good tonight. Thoughts?

Ozfin77
01-02-2010, 04:04 AM
Spikes looked darn good tonight. Thoughts?

I agree. I have the game here to watch again, but I actually started thinking again about this guy....I'd written him off.

ckparrothead
01-02-2010, 01:35 PM
Spikes looked very good against Cincinnati. It was a game that highlighted two of his strengths, which are pass rushing and reading the quarterback's eyes in zone.

baseballcb95
01-02-2010, 03:07 PM
He definitely didnt have a bad game but i didnt notice him in on too many plays? maybe i just wasnt paying attention.. Mardy Gilyard was MIA most of the game.. Carlos Dunlap Has soo much potential but i think he will come back for senior year.. CK, correct me if im wrong, dunlap is a 4-3 DE right? i saw someone say we should turn him into an olb and draft him in the first :rolleyes: I like ryan stamper alot also Major wright and Ahmad Black.. Jeff Demps Is going to be great (that injury wus disqusting) Imagine trading ronnie for a second, using a 3rd on Geheart, and drafting rainey or demps next year?

ckparrothead
01-02-2010, 05:46 PM
Well, it's not as crazy an idea as it sounds, moving Carlos Dunlap to a space position. The reason I say that is he is a player that plays small, stays on his feet and hustles to the play. There have been a few plays when I'm trying to focus on Brandon Spikes and there's Carlos Dunlap getting out of trouble on his feet, hustling deep down the field (and I mean running at full bore) to help make a play on a receiver or something along those lines.

SRM
01-03-2010, 12:51 AM
I can't help but come with away with liking Spikes more after watching all that film. It seemed like McClain would never get off the blocks, but he seemed like that linebacker that will always do what he has to do, but maybe not do more than that (turnovers, basically)

Spikes, however, showed more of a tenacious, hard-nosed attitude to me. He hits very hard, and takes on blocks with an attitude. When he wouldn't get to the ball carrier, he showed he could fight off the block and keep himself in the play, and possibly tackle the ballcarrier still. It seemed like in these situations McClain would be out of the play, and stay out of it.

I'm fine with either one of them though. And while I like Spikes more, I think McClain is more the kind of linebacker we need. One that actually does what he's supposed to do. I think Spikes is someone we'd take if we already had a linebacker that does the things McClain does.

baseballcb95
01-03-2010, 01:10 AM
Imagine if spikes falls to us in the 2nd and mcclain falls to us in the 1st? :lol: id go for that. send crowder packing and squeeze another year out of JT/JP

hooshoops
01-03-2010, 01:12 AM
Imagine if spikes falls to us in the 2nd and mcclain falls to us in the 1st? :lol: id go for that. send crowder packing and squeeze another year out of JT/JP

another year of no pass rush from jt and porter while wake gets limited reps on 3rd and the football field :(

SRM
01-03-2010, 01:21 AM
Imagine if spikes falls to us in the 2nd and mcclain falls to us in the 1st? :lol: id go for that. send crowder packing and squeeze another year out of JT/JP

I'd literally need a new set of pants.

MP-Omnis
01-03-2010, 01:24 AM
I can't help but come with away with liking Spikes more after watching all that film. It seemed like McClain would never get off the blocks, but he seemed like that linebacker that will always do what he has to do, but maybe not do more than that (turnovers, basically)

Spikes, however, showed more of a tenacious, hard-nosed attitude to me. He hits very hard, and takes on blocks with an attitude. When he wouldn't get to the ball carrier, he showed he could fight off the block and keep himself in the play, and possibly tackle the ballcarrier still. It seemed like in these situations McClain would be out of the play, and stay out of it.

I'm fine with either one of them though. And while I like Spikes more, I think McClain is more the kind of linebacker we need. One that actually does what he's supposed to do. I think Spikes is someone we'd take if we already had a linebacker that does the things McClain does.

Yeah, the way I see it is McClain is Mr. Insurance whereas Spikes is more of a Mr. Gung-ho. McClain will let his team mates make the plays while making sure his responsibility is not compromised. But if he gets caught out it seems like he just gives up and floats after the ball merely observing what happened. Spikes is more of a go-getter like a Channing Crowder with killer pass rush and 1st round talent. It looks like Spikes has a better motor and will pursue with more tenacity even though his angles aren't always good. But that can be coached.

I think Spikes has more to gain from coaching than McClain does. That's a compliment to both of them. The issue is really about how they would fit into the linebacking corps and what their identities would be if they were starting next to Channing. It's kind of funny because McClain and Spikes would be perfect teammates. They complement each other's style of play very well.

And there's also the possibility of bringing in Dansby and drafting someone like Dez Bryant or another player if all of these guys are off the board by then. As of now, there's still the ever-so-slight possibility of us making playoffs so you never know.

hooshoops
01-03-2010, 01:38 AM
i look at it as spikes may make more big plays but he's also gonna give up an awful lot of them...

i trust mcclain to be where he's supposed to be and to stay true to his responsibilities whether it be vs the run or pass and i also trust mcclain in coverage more down the field and i think he has better instincts...

i see spikes as a loose cannon

and i think upside without a doubt goes to mcclain

SRM
01-03-2010, 01:38 AM
Yeah, the way I see it is McClain is Mr. Insurance whereas Spikes is more of a Mr. Gung-ho. McClain will let his team mates make the plays while making sure his responsibility is not compromised. But if he gets caught out it seems like he just gives up and floats after the ball merely observing what happened. Spikes is more of a go-getter like a Channing Crowder with killer pass rush and 1st round talent. It looks like Spikes has a better motor and will pursue with more tenacity even though his angles aren't always good. But that can be coached.

I think Spikes has more to gain from coaching than McClain does. That's a compliment to both of them. The issue is really about how they would fit into the linebacking corps and what their identities would be if they were starting next to Channing. It's kind of funny because McClain and Spikes would be perfect teammates. They complement each other's style of play very well.

And there's also the possibility of bringing in Dansby and drafting someone like Dez Bryant or another player if all of these guys are off the board by then. As of now, there's still the ever-so-slight possibility of us making playoffs so you never know.

Yeah, I agree completely. Especially with the fact that they complement each other very well. That's why in my post above, I said I'd need a new set of pants if both of them somehow fell to us, in the 1st and 2nd round. We'd be SET at linebacker for 10+ years!

And yeah, but if the CBA agreement isn't reached, that pretty much eliminates any FA for us, right?