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View Full Version : "God" Honored As One of Man's Most Important Inventions By The Onion



Vaark
12-17-2009, 01:01 PM
It's truly not my intent to insult or dishonor any "true believers" but after looking at some of the thread titles here, irreverent tongue-in-cheek subjects appear to be taken in good-natured stride.

I have infrequently posted in this forum previously that as a Deist I do believe in a supernatural being/higher power but not in an organized-religion defined "God" per se. Nonetheless, I respect others faith-based beliefs, know a bunch of folks who have turned their lives around after embracing them, so although The Onion's description of God as a man-made device does closely overlap with my own, it's not my intention to offend anyone here who earnestly engages in passionate, often intellectual discussions and debates.

(How's THAT for a "disclaimer." :lol:)

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2009/12/5un7fn-1.jpg

aesop
12-23-2009, 12:38 PM
They've had a bunch of funny religion pieces on The Onion. I wish I could find some of them.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-23-2009, 05:45 PM
Funny folks, but what a waste of talent and time. Imagine that, if the so called believers are wrong they waste maybe a lifetime of what? Scorn from non believers, and a lifetime of trying to be morally good? And if the believers are right? The non believer lose what? Eternity of happiness and win a free ticket to hell.

aesop
12-25-2009, 11:37 AM
Funny folks, but what a waste of talent and time. Imagine that, if the so called believers are wrong they waste maybe a lifetime of what? Scorn from non believers, and a lifetime of trying to be morally good? And if the believers are right? The non believer lose what? Eternity of happiness and win a free ticket to hell.Another "just in case" believer.

JCane
12-25-2009, 11:45 AM
LMAO

I love it.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-27-2009, 02:11 AM
Another "just in case" believer.

Sorry...no such thing as just in case, either you're going to be with Jesus, or against Jesus. No put options, no call options, no futures.



I swear to God.....I would f*cking end your life. And have no remorse whatsoever.
Luke 12: 4-5 NIV
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

But I will show you whom you should FEAR:

FEAR him who after the killing of the body, has the POWER to throw you into HELL. Yes I tell you, FEAR him.


BTW Jesus didn't just say "turn the other cheek"...He also told us us to ARM ourselves...
The JEWS were the most fearless of warriors, why? Because if they die, they LIVE again.

tylerdolphin
12-27-2009, 04:07 AM
Luke 12: 4-5 NIV
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

But I will show you whom you should FEAR:

FEAR him who after the killing of the body, has the POWER to throw you into HELL. Yes I tell you, FEAR him.


BTW Jesus didn't just say "turn the other cheek"...He also told us us to ARM ourselves...
The JEWS were the most fearless of warriors, why? Because if they die, they LIVE again.
you have no idea how funny this post is to me :lol:. you dont know the joke behind his sig...

1Hawdolfin4L
12-27-2009, 04:53 AM
you have no idea how funny this post is to me http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif. you dont know the joke behind his sig...


I'm making a comment on his sig.(not the joke), which is that as a Christian, you are not afraid to die and that you are not afraid of anyone. The only person/entity that you are or should be afraid of is God period. I am NOT making a comment per say on the joke itself. Another point that I am trying to make people aware of is...and not many people know...is that Jesus gave the command to bear arms.

aesop
12-28-2009, 01:13 PM
Sorry...no such thing as just in case, either you're going to be with Jesus, or against Jesus. No put options, no call options, no futures.I'm neither for nor against Jesus. I never met the guy, don't believe he was the son of god.. but that doesn't mean I'm against him. It's not black and white like you think it is.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-28-2009, 03:53 PM
You never met Jesus, but he knows who you are. He knows everybody. Many people are afraid of Jesus, ask someone to come to church, or just share talking about Jesus, many will balk at the thought of submitting 30 minutes maybe to an hour of their time. Even some so-called Christians are afraid to mention his name, and even to their own relatives. That one fact or emotion alone gave thought to me, that just the name of “Jesus” was powerful. What name in all of earth’s history from time before till now evokes that reaction? And not just in America or Israel but the entire world. This is not something that was invented, it is real. So I tell you today, drive down the road, and say the name Jesus and see what happens. If nothing happens then do it tomorrow, and the next day and the next. All it takes is 1 (one) second. Many are even afraid to even do just that, but go ahead and try, because your life will depend on knowing Jesus, there will be no middle ground, only “for” and “against.”

All it takes is 1 (one) second, it doesn’t have to be black and white.

aesop
12-29-2009, 10:38 AM
You never met Jesus, but he knows who you are. He knows everybody. Many people are afraid of Jesus, ask someone to come to church, or just share talking about Jesus, many will balk at the thought of submitting 30 minutes maybe to an hour of their time. Even some so-called Christians are afraid to mention his name, and even to their own relatives. That one fact or emotion alone gave thought to me, that just the name of “Jesus” was powerful. What name in all of earth’s history from time before till now evokes that reaction? And not just in America or Israel but the entire world. This is not something that was invented, it is real. So I tell you today, drive down the road, and say the name Jesus and see what happens. If nothing happens then do it tomorrow, and the next day and the next. All it takes is 1 (one) second. Many are even afraid to even do just that, but go ahead and try, because your life will depend on knowing Jesus, there will be no middle ground, only “for” and “against.”

All it takes is 1 (one) second, it doesn’t have to be black and white.I don't really know where you are trying to go with this. Either way, I'm not for nor against Jesus. You can tell me I have to be one or the other, but I'm not.

Vaark
12-29-2009, 11:27 AM
You never met Jesus, but he knows who you are. He knows everybody. Many people are afraid of Jesus, ask someone to come to church, or just share talking about Jesus, many will balk at the thought of submitting 30 minutes maybe to an hour of their time. Even some so-called Christians are afraid to mention his name, and even to their own relatives. That one fact or emotion alone gave thought to me, that just the name of “Jesus” was powerful. What name in all of earth’s history from time before till now evokes that reaction? And not just in America or Israel but the entire world. This is not something that was invented, it is real. So I tell you today, drive down the road, and say the name Jesus and see what happens. If nothing happens then do it tomorrow, and the next day and the next. All it takes is 1 (one) second. Many are even afraid to even do just that, but go ahead and try, because your life will depend on knowing Jesus, there will be no middle ground, only “for” and “against.”

All it takes is 1 (one) second, it doesn’t have to be black and white.

I usually stay out of these things, but you do realize you can say the same thing about Mohammed if you're driving down most any street in the Middle East or North Africa. Jesus is meaningless to them as Mohammed is to you. Ditto, Yahwah if you're a Lubavitch or Hassid or orthadox Jew anywhere in the world who believe that using a spiritual middleman is the equivalent of buying retail. :lol:

Every one of the above are so inculcated and reinforced in their belief that they're the one true path that IMO, none can see the forest from the trees.

I have long observed, going back to my own grandfather whom I loved dearly, that the more devout and unquestioning someone is in their own religion, the less tolerant or accepting are they of other organized religions and others beliefs. I don't know if more blood over the centuries has been shed over religious beliefs and conquests than land grabs, but if not, it's pretty close. As a result, I have long soured on any one religion based on faith and doctrine that may or may not be questionable, passed down as fact from generation to generation.

However, anyone who's objective understands from nature alone that there is a master plan and a supreme being setting it in place. And that's why I'm a Deist which affords me a spirituality without the guilt, hell and damnation and recriminations from not accepting Mohammed, Jesus, Yahwah or any organized religious symbol and the hoops they make you jump through.

www.deism.com (http://www.deism.com)

Dolphan7
12-29-2009, 11:44 AM
I don't really know where you are trying to go with this. Either way, I'm not for nor against Jesus. You can tell me I have to be one or the other, but I'm not.What he is trying to tell you is this......

Because you are not "for" Jesus.....you are automatically against Him.

Jesus tells us this Himself.



MT 12:30 “ He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Dolphan7
12-29-2009, 11:48 AM
I usually stay out of these things, but you do realize you can say the same thing about Mohammed if you're driving down most any street in the Middle East or North Africa. Jesus is meaningless to them as Mohammed is to you. Ditto, Yahwah if you're a Lubavitch or Hassid or orthadox Jew anywhere in the world who believe that using a spiritual middleman is the equivalent of buying retail. :lol:

Every one of the above are so inculcated and reinforced in their belief that they're the one true path that IMO, none can see the forest from the trees.

I have long observed, going back to my own grandfather whom I loved dearly, that the more devout and unquestioning someone is in their own religion, the less tolerant or accepting are they of other organized religions and others beliefs. I don't know if more blood over the centuries has been shed over religious beliefs and conquests than land grabs, but if not, it's pretty close. As a result, I have long soured on any one religion based on faith and doctrine that may or may not be questionable, passed down as fact from generation to generation.

However, anyone who's objective understands from nature alone that there is a master plan and a supreme being setting it in place. And that's why I'm a Deist which affords me a spirituality without the guilt, hell and damnation and recriminations from not accepting Mohammed, Jesus, Yahwah or any organized religious symbol and the hoops they make you jump through.

www.deism.com (http://www.deism.com)

So you believe there is a supreme being.:up:

What do you make of Jesus?

Vaark
12-29-2009, 12:38 PM
So you believe there is a supreme being.:up:

What do you make of Jesus?

I do believe in a grand design but one where the complex organism that evolved into a human (on its way to further evolution?) just as the higher power planned it, has the autonomous power to construct and follow his own life's blueprint, or not.

Jesus? If he was real and I was to believe all the information and mythology constructed around him, I'd classify him as an exalted emissary in the same way I would a Moses or a Mohammed, that's if what I've read and been told about them are true too. But I don't know any of this to be more real than the Easter Bunny. As a skeptic who has seen amazed people coming out of a Doug Henning, David Blaine or David Copperfield show marvel and wonderment over the unexplainable magic, I feel the same way about the mythology that surrounds any organized religion and its traditions and icons. People are impressionable, easily fooled and will believe or see what they want to. And that's if they're sincere, and not all are since there've been hucksters throughout history who deceive for personal gain and control of others, often having used the threat of a bullwhip to do so.

No offense intended; as mentioned when starting this thread, although I agree with Onion's tongue in cheek description, I respect others' faiths and beliefs so long as they don't try to foist them on me since I've seen people in crisis turn their lives around by embracing them.

That's about it. I do read these threads occasionally and understand and respect the kind of conviction which my grandfather had although I personally don't endorse it. I shall basically go back to lurking unless I see another post which purports that their way is the only true way.

aesop
12-29-2009, 01:09 PM
Jesus tells us this Himself."O con noi o contro di noi" - Mussolini

Funny how a devout atheist would say the same thing.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-29-2009, 01:26 PM
I usually stay out of these things, but you do realize you can say the same thing about Mohammed if you're driving down most any street in the Middle East or North Africa. Jesus is meaningless to them as Mohammed is to you. Mohammed was NOT the son of God. An angel made a visitation. Jesus is not meaningless, to them he is a great prophet.
However Jesus did say that he was the son of God.
Yahweh is the name of GOD in both Judaism and Christianity.


I don't know if more blood over the centuries has been shed over religious beliefs and conquests than land grabs, This is a failure of Man, NOT GOD. As long as you live and years beyond this will continue, but this excuse will not pass when judgment arrives, you will still be held accountable.

The Bible says ALL men fall short, in other words, no one is perfect, not your guru, Mohammed, nor the Pope. Thus over the years religion will become corrupt, BUT the message REMAINS, believe in Jesus.


passed down as fact from generation to generation. What is fact to you? I don’t believe that George Bush was president of America, because it was in the newspapers?, newspapers are full of liars, ABC, NBC, I won’t go there. Information changes over time. Really? The Bible from archeological finds have NOT changed despite being written over a 1,000 yrs ago.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-29-2009, 01:35 PM
mythology

Even if they found Noah's ark there still would be countless of unbelievers. Even if Jesus Christ himself would come down today, countless would still not believe.



BUT they STILL would be held accountable.

And we as Christians still must proclaim Jesus, for there still is time for a few more souls to be saved.

Vaark
12-29-2009, 02:32 PM
Mohammed was NOT the son of God. An angel made a visitation. Jesus is not meaningless, to them he is a great prophet.
However Jesus did say that he was the son of God.
Yahweh is the name of GOD in both Judaism and Christianity. As a Christian we do not believe that they are the same because the Islamic God wants to kill Jews and infidels, if they do not convert to Islam, with Christians you have the right to deny Jesus, but judgment nevertheless will be made at the end of times by Jesus himself and not by man.



This is a failure of Man, NOT GOD. As long as you live and years beyond this will continue, but this excuse will not pass when judgment arrives, you will still be held accountable.j

This is the kind of horse manure that alienates me against brainwashed holy rollers whether they're pimping Jesus, Mohammed or L Ron Hubbard. You've just lost me with the same kind of crap that the Taliban uses to dominate, control and mind bend their flock of followers.

Believe what you want, but, I believe it's ashes to ashes and dust to dust and a life long of self-righteous hail and brimstone baloney ill be for naught.

You should really look into Deism; this spirituality is populated by much greater minds and thinkers than you and me. What I know is a lot of the tight *** sphincters could unwind if not so obsessed worrying about an illusory afterlife and concentrate on enlightenment rather than fear of the unknown.

Bye .


What is fact to you? I don’t believe that George Bush was president of America, because it was in the newspapers?, newspapers are full of liars, ABC, NBC, I won’t go there. Information changes over time. Really? The Bible from archeological finds have NOT changed despite being written over a 1,000 yrs ago.

He was appointed President mostly because Katherine Harris worked for Jeb Bush...but that's another story and not germane, but go ahead, if you want to deride empiricism and champion "faith" it's certainly your prerogative like it's mine to consider it folly. Bye

I'm out of here

1Hawdolfin4L
12-29-2009, 03:13 PM
The truth is...you could be Marilyn Manson or Charles Manson and 1 (one) minute or a few seconds before you actually die...finally believe in Jesus...YOU will be saved.

And many of us who have believed in Jesus all of our lives will be denied.

Dolphan7
12-29-2009, 04:31 PM
"O con noi o contro di noi" - Mussolini

Funny how a devout atheist would say the same thing.And where do you think he got it from?

And you missed the point.

Dolphan7
12-29-2009, 04:45 PM
I do believe in a grand design but one where the complex organism that evolved into a human (on its way to further evolution?) just as the higher power planned it, has the autonomous power to construct and follow his own life's blueprint, or not.

Jesus? If he was real and I was to believe all the information and mythology constructed around him, I'd classify him as an exalted emissary in the same way I would a Moses or a Mohammed, that's if what I've read and been told about them are true too. But I don't know any of this to be more real than the Easter Bunny. As a skeptic who has seen amazed people coming out of a Doug Henning, David Blaine or David Copperfield show marvel and wonderment over the unexplainable magic, I feel the same way about the mythology that surrounds any organized religion and its traditions and icons. People are impressionable, easily fooled and will believe or see what they want to. And that's if they're sincere, and not all are since there've been hucksters throughout history who deceive for personal gain and control of others, often having used the threat of a bullwhip to do so.

No offense intended; as mentioned when starting this thread, although I agree with Onion's tongue in cheek description, I respect others' faiths and beliefs so long as they don't try to foist them on me since I've seen people in crisis turn their lives around by embracing them.

That's about it. I do read these threads occasionally and understand and respect the kind of conviction which my grandfather had although I personally don't endorse it. I shall basically go back to lurking unless I see another post which purports that their way is the only true way.
Thanks for your input. Good Luck the rest of the way, if it works out like you think it will.

Dolphan7
12-29-2009, 04:52 PM
The truth is...you could be Marilyn Manson or Charles Manson and 1 (one) minute or a few seconds before you actually die...finally believe in Jesus...YOU will be saved.

And many of us who have believed in Jesus all of our lives will be denied.What? Is this sarcasm?

Dolphan7
12-29-2009, 04:53 PM
Even if they found Noah's ark there still would be countless of unbelievers. Even if Jesus Christ himself would come down today, countless would still not believe.



BUT they STILL would be held accountable.

And we as Christians still must proclaim Jesus, for there still is time for a few more souls to be saved.Yes indeed....many are lost.......far too many. We focus on those that show an interest....of which there are probably very few of those on this board.

Vaark
12-29-2009, 05:01 PM
Thanks for your input. Good Luck the rest of the way, if it works out like you think it will.

TY and likewise

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

1Hawdolfin4L
12-29-2009, 05:31 PM
What? Is this sarcasm? No, no sarcasm, just a reminder, lest we get proud and haughty of ourselves puffed up with pride and self righteousness.


Matt. 7: 22-23 LB
At the Judgment many will tell me, “Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.” But I will reply, “You have never been mine. Go away for your deeds are evil.

Also related
Matt. 19:30 KJV
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Translation –
For some C. Manson will make it or get to Heaven before them, (that is if he repents and believe in Jesus) (last shall be 1st) and for others, he (C. Manson) will get there, but they themselves won’t make it(You have never been mine).

emeraldfin
12-29-2009, 06:03 PM
No, no sarcasm, just a reminder, lest we get proud and haughty of ourselves puffed up with pride and self righteousness.


Matt. 7: 22-23 LB
At the Judgment many will tell me, “Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.” But I will reply, “You have never been mine. Go away for your deeds are evil.

Also related
Matt. 19:30 KJV
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Translation –
For some C. Manson will make it or get to Heaven before them, (that is if he repents and believe in Jesus) (last shall be 1st) and for others, he (C. Manson) will get there, but they themselves won’t make it(You have never been mine).

If Charles Manson makes it to Heaven then I will gladly go to hell.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-29-2009, 06:22 PM
God and Jesus gives the gift of life to everyone who asks and repents.

The angels in heaven rejoices with everyone who becomes a believer and if you are a Christian and so should you. You become the last out of respect for the youngest. At a party or any festive celebration, the children are 1st to eat, and the elders or host goes last.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-29-2009, 07:12 PM
The Kingdom of God cannot be bought. God/Jesus knows our thoughts and heart.
Also, if after all these years of praising God then at the end you deny Jesus, .....I'm sorry my friend, then maybe you didn't know Jesus, hence "You have never been mine."

Be on guard...ALWAYS!

poornate
12-29-2009, 11:44 PM
Another point that I am trying to make people aware of is...is that Jesus gave the command to bear arms.

I DEMAND enlightenment... :lol:

1Hawdolfin4L
12-30-2009, 01:30 AM
I DEMAND enlightenment... Living Bible Version
Luke 22: 36 LB
“But now,” he said, “take a duffle bag if you have one, and your money. And if you don’t have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one!
Luke 22:38 LB
“Master,” they replied, “we have two swords among us.” “Enough!” he said.

New International Version
Luke 22:36 NIV
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Luke 22:38 NIV
The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

The Amplified Bible
Luke 22:36
Then He said to them, But now let him who has a purse take it, and also(his provision) bag; and let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy a sword.
Luke 22:38
And they said, Look, Lord! Here are two swords. And He said to them, It is enough.



Translation from NIV Life Application Bible

Here Jesus reversed his earlier advice regarding how to travel. The disciples were to bring bags, money, and swords. They would be facing hatred and persecution and would need to be prepared. When Jesus said “That is enough,” he may have meant it was not time to think of using swords. In either case, mention of a sword vividly communicated the trials they were soon to face

emeraldfin
12-30-2009, 06:39 AM
The Kingdom of God cannot be bought. God/Jesus knows our thoughts and heart.
Also, if after all these years of praising God then at the end you deny Jesus, .....I'm sorry my friend, then maybe you didn't know Jesus, hence "You have never been mine."

Be on guard...ALWAYS!

The problem with your statement that Charles Manson will enter into Heaven if he believes in Jesus in the last remaining moments of his life is that you clearly subscibe to the faith alone path. From reading you previous posts I can see you have good knowledge of scripture, therefore you will be aware that there is verses in the Bible supporting faith with good works. And sure I will find passages supporting faith alone, but what then?

Clearly neither of us is going to solve a 600 year old theological debate on a football forum, but I'm more curious to see how you can believe one over the other when both are supported in scripture.

aesop
12-30-2009, 11:25 AM
And where do you think he got it from?

And you missed the point.No, I got the point. What I was saying is that it's funny that a fascist dictator would say the same thing. It's fear mongering. There can't be middle ground.

So because I was never 'enlightened' about Jesus, I am against him? I have no anger or disdain towards him.. how does that make me against him? Like Vaark said, it's just like what extremist terrorist groups do to people. Just because it's packaged differently doesn't make it a different product.

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 11:47 AM
No, I got the point. What I was saying is that it's funny that a fascist dictator would say the same thing. It's fear mongering. There can't be middle ground.

So because I was never 'enlightened' about Jesus, I am against him? I have no anger or disdain towards him.. how does that make me against him? Like Vaark said, it's just like what extremist terrorist groups do to people. Just because it's packaged differently doesn't make it a different product.And George Bush used it too. While some may use words to strike fear into people, I don't think Jesus was doing that...if that is what you mean.

It is simply a statement of fact. Jesus wasn't going to say it was ok to "kinda follow him, sometimes believe in him, sit on the fence". He wants you to commit to Him your entire heart, just like your wife expects from you.

Jesus is just stating it in the simplest of terms.

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 12:02 PM
No, no sarcasm, just a reminder, lest we get proud and haughty of ourselves puffed up with pride and self righteousness.


Matt. 7: 22-23 LB
At the Judgment many will tell me, “Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.” But I will reply, “You have never been mine. Go away for your deeds are evil.

Also related
Matt. 19:30 KJV
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Translation –
For some C. Manson will make it or get to Heaven before them, (that is if he repents and believe in Jesus) (last shall be 1st) and for others, he (C. Manson) will get there, but they themselves won’t make it(You have never been mine).Ok I understand what you are implying. I am well aware of deathbed confessions and repentance. And I am aware that there are those within the church who are simply going through the motions and their hearts are far from God. I get that. No problem here.

But I do make an issue of being in the position to say with absolute certainty who will make it and who won't. That is a matter of ones own heart, and only God really knows where each of our hearts is at any given time. So...while I understand the "possibility" of Manson getting into heaven....I leave that up to God.

Many play the odds and think that they can live their life anyway they want....and at the last minute convert to Christianity and be saved. My guess is that God is aware of this game that people play....and will judge it accordingly.

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 12:05 PM
If Charles Manson makes it to Heaven then I will gladly go to hell.LOL...why?

aesop
12-30-2009, 12:21 PM
And George Bush used it too. While some may use words to strike fear into people, I don't think Jesus was doing that...if that is what you mean.

It is simply a statement of fact. Jesus wasn't going to say it was ok to "kinda follow him, sometimes believe in him, sit on the fence". He wants you to commit to Him your entire heart, just like your wife expects from you.

Jesus is just stating it in the simplest of terms.What other purpose would there be in saying it? He could have said "Follow me if you so choose or take your chances without me". It's presented as all or nothing. An obvious fear mongering tactic. There's really no other way to interpret it.

I'm not on the fence about Jesus. Was he really that arrogant to say that you are with him or against him? It probably would've been a great tactic to gain followers back in the day of flawed logic and science.

poornate
12-30-2009, 01:24 PM
Living Bible Version
Luke 22: 36 LB
“But now,” he said, “take a duffle bag if you have one, and your money. And if you don’t have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one!
Luke 22:38 LB
“Master,” they replied, “we have two swords among us.” “Enough!” he said.

New International Version
Luke 22:36 NIV
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Luke 22:38 NIV
The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

The Amplified Bible
Luke 22:36
Then He said to them, But now let him who has a purse take it, and also(his provision) bag; and let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy a sword.
Luke 22:38
And they said, Look, Lord! Here are two swords. And He said to them, It is enough.



Translation from NIV Life Application Bible

Here Jesus reversed his earlier advice regarding how to travel. The disciples were to bring bags, money, and swords. They would be facing hatred and persecution and would need to be prepared. When Jesus said “That is enough,” he may have meant it was not time to think of using swords. In either case, mention of a sword vividly communicated the trials they were soon to face

Your arms must look like country miles to be able to make this big of a reach...

1Hawdolfin4L
12-30-2009, 02:35 PM
Like Vaark said, it's just like what extremist terrorist groups do to people. If you do not follow the extremist, they will kill you, HERE on earth, and according to their values they will not be judged.

A true Christian/JESUS will not do that. You have your free will to choose.

Now if you do not believe...why are you so worried about what we are saying that will happen in an after life that you do not believe in?

Unless of course...you really do believe.

I cannot judge you, nor can any other human, we are all tainted and imperfect. As a Christian all we are saying is that... this being (JESUS) claimed to be the son of God and he claimed that there is an after life and this will happen. After hearing the story, I believe, and now I will tell the story to someone else. We told it to you. If you want to believe...good and fine. If you don't want to believe, that's up to you, and we will move on to the next.

But we will not hold you up for ransom, kill you, subject you to torture, nor kill your relatives, and if you follow us for a little, then change your mind, we will still NOT kill you, nor your relatives, etc.

The extremist will, the Christian will not.

poornate
12-30-2009, 05:03 PM
All religions have extremists... wasn't Reverend Jim Jones a Christian? He did some killing... inquisitions, much? The far right Christian culture in America is no different than the Taliban, they just don't have the authority to impose their will on a secular nation...

1Hawdolfin4L
12-30-2009, 05:41 PM
The far right Christian culture in America is no different than the Taliban,Really?

The Koran does indeed say to KILL the infidels, thus if the Muslims fail to kill the infidels they are not following their leader. The EXTREMIST are the ones that are following their leader.

Now tell me where does Jesus say to kill the infidels.

Enlighten me on any far right Christian leader who wants to kill any infidel.

Name me leaders from the Christian right who have BEHEADED infidels.


BTW Rev. Jim is not following our leader Jesus by his actions, and YES by their actions the Taliban are engaged in following the actions of their leader.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-30-2009, 05:44 PM
If Charles Manson makes it to Heaven then I will gladly go to hell.

PAUL – From the Book: Who’s who in the Bible
Although he was the leading persecutor of Christians in the first years of the new faith, Paul became a believer in Jesus and the most influential voice…after Jesus himself…in the history of the church.
Excerpt from the article below:
Apostle Paul was also guilty of murdering the innocent. He was primarily responsible for the stoning of Stephen in Acts 8. Later, after Paul was converted, he wrote of himself, "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." 1 Tim 1:15-16 Paul was acutely aware that he had committed a terrible crime by murdering Stephen.


http://www.bible.ca/s-Dahmer.htm
Could convicted mass murder Jeffrey Dahmer get to heaven before you?
Jeffrey Dahmer will definitely go down in history as a very wicked man. Being a homosexual who abducted, raped, tortured, murdered and cannibalized his many victims, he is ranked among the worlds worst men in the minds of most. Now I want you imagine a difficult thing; that Dahmer went straight into the arms of Jesus the moment he died. "Impossible", you might snort with indignation! "Why this guy was a real sicko, an evil savage. The Devil incarnate! This boy will surely burn in hell for eternity!"
Well, I would like to tell you a true story about Dahmer which was reported in the "Christian Chronicle" and "The Daily Oklahoman" newspapers.

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 07:24 PM
What other purpose would there be in saying it? He could have said "Follow me if you so choose or take your chances without me". It's presented as all or nothing. An obvious fear mongering tactic. There's really no other way to interpret it.

I'm not on the fence about Jesus. Was he really that arrogant to say that you are with him or against him? It probably would've been a great tactic to gain followers back in the day of flawed logic and science.It isn't fear mongering....but more like Truthmongering.

Jesus simply stated the Truth. Instead of saying - choose me or choose death.....as you think he is saying....he simply says.....you are already dead....come to me if you want to live...I will save you..I will redeem you. Those who choose him, are with him, will be on one side,,,, and those who don't take up His offer...will be on the other side.

I don't know of many other ways to put it, but if you continue to insist that Jesus is no more than a terrorist using fear tactics......this will be a very short conversation.....and I will have no continued part in it.

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 07:29 PM
Your arms must look like country miles to be able to make this big of a reach...Actually .....it isn't a reach at all. Jesus wasn't a pacifist, contrary to popular secular belief. That doesn't mean he was a war monger either, but he did teach that you have the right to defend yourself...he also taught about many many ways to avoid conflict and love your brother as yourself and be the salt and the light of the world etc....

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 07:38 PM
All religions have extremists... wasn't Reverend Jim Jones a Christian? He did some killing... inquisitions, much? The far right Christian culture in America is no different than the Taliban, they just don't have the authority to impose their will on a secular nation...Nate, your comments are either ignorant.... or purposely inflammatory.

Depending on the criterion..I would be considered part of the far right beliefs.

Am I a terrorist? Would you associate me with someone who wants to force you to live your life according to biblical standards? I would hope not. The far right doesn't seek to mandate anything of the sort...but that does not mean they won't have opinions on what is happening in our country, and try to stop some of the abhorrent changes it is embracing at break neck speed. At the end of the day..we all have one voice...our vote...and let each vote according to his own conscience...wherever that conscience came from, or what it is based on. It is a free country still Nate....and I would never seek to force anyone to follow my morality, and would never belittle nor attempt to minimize anyone else's voice or opinion....and I hope you aren't either.

HansMojo
12-30-2009, 07:50 PM
What other purpose would there be in saying it? He could have said "Follow me if you so choose or take your chances without me". It's presented as all or nothing. An obvious fear mongering tactic. There's really no other way to interpret it.

I'm not on the fence about Jesus. Was he really that arrogant to say that you are with him or against him? It probably would've been a great tactic to gain followers back in the day of flawed logic and science.

I think that to understand why Jesus sometimes spoke in such absolutes, one must consider how Jesus views the importance of His relationship to us (and the context He was speaking in).

Fear mongering. I remember back when I learned to SCUBA dive (many years ago) the instructor kept telling us to follow his instructions (i.e. keep breathing!!, stay within depth limits, don't ascend faster than him, etc.). He would also harp on the idea that if we didn't follow his instructions, that we could end up seriously injured or even dead. I remember thinking that the instructor was exaggerating and just trying to scare us so that we wouldn't give him too much trouble (fear mongering). I was just a kid back then but now I understand that the instructor was just trying to keep us alive and that the rules really were necessary for keeping us alive on a dive.

IMHO...Jesus viewed and continues to view Himself as the source and sustainer of all life (the life we currently have as well as the one that is yet to come). The Bible teaches that before Jesus came to earth as a human, He was actually the one who made all things...the Creator God. For the sake of analogy, He is kind of like oxygen to us. We can choose to stop breathing, but we can't choose to stop breathing and still expect to live...not for very long anyway. In that sense, we are either for or against breathing. It doesn't matter whether or not we understand why oxygen is an important component of the air we suck into our lungs or not. It just matters that we continue to breath. There is no middle ground. Breath or die (and that is not fear mongering).

Since Jesus views Himself as the source and sustainer of all life, there is no middle ground in His mind. We are either connected to or disconnected from our source of life (which in a spiritual sense is Jesus), and IMHO, this is why He speaks in such absolutes. For the time being we all die, but disconnected from God, we will die permanently. The Bible warns that God will not continue to sustain life on this planet forever and if we are to continue living beyond the course of this life, it will only be because we return to Heaven with Jesus. There will be nothing left behind after it is all said and done. And no, I do not believe in an eternally burning Hell, though I do believe in the permanent (eternal) destruction of everything left behind.

Thankfully, God gives us all a choice though and the lives we currently have our ours to live as we choose. He wants to give us so much more, but He isn't going to drag us into Heaven kicking and screaming. IMHO.

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 08:29 PM
I think that to understand why Jesus sometimes spoke in such absolutes, one must consider how Jesus views the importance of His relationship to us (and the context He was speaking in).

Fear mongering. I remember back when I learned to SCUBA dive (many years ago) the instructor kept telling us to follow his instructions (i.e. keep breathing!!, stay within depth limits, don't ascend faster than him, etc.). He would also harp on the idea that if we didn't follow his instructions, that we could end up seriously injured or even dead. I remember thinking that the instructor was exaggerating and just trying to scare us so that we wouldn't give him too much trouble (fear mongering). I was just a kid back then but now I understand that the instructor was just trying to keep us alive and that the rules really were necessary for keeping us alive on a dive.

IMHO...Jesus viewed and continues to view Himself as the source and sustainer of all life (the life we currently have as well as the one that is yet to come). The Bible teaches that before Jesus came to earth as a human, He was actually the one who made all things...the Creator God. For the sake of analogy, He is kind of like oxygen to us. We can choose to stop breathing, but we can't choose to stop breathing and still expect to live...not for very long anyway. In that sense, we are either for or against breathing. It doesn't matter whether or not we understand why oxygen is an important component of the air we suck into our lungs or not. It just matters that we continue to breath. There is no middle ground. Breath or die (and that is not fear mongering).

Since Jesus views Himself as the source and sustainer of all life, there is no middle ground in His mind. We are either connected to or disconnected from our source of life (which in a spiritual sense is Jesus), and IMHO, this is why He speaks in such absolutes. For the time being we all die, but disconnected from God, we will die permanently. The Bible warns that God will not continue to sustain life on this planet forever and if we are to continue living beyond the course of this life, it will only be because we return to Heaven with Jesus. There will be nothing left behind after it is all said and done. And no, I do not believe in an eternally burning Hell, though I do believe in the permanent (eternal) destruction of everything left behind.

Thankfully, God gives us all a choice though and the lives we currently have our ours to live as we choose. He wants to give us so much more, but He isn't going to drag us into Heaven kicking and screaming. IMHO.Oxygen. What a great analogy! :up:

HansMojo
12-30-2009, 08:54 PM
Oxygen. What a great analogy! :up:

:thanks:

poornate
12-30-2009, 09:06 PM
Nate, your comments are either ignorant.... or purposely inflammatory.

Depending on the criterion..I would be considered part of the far right beliefs.

Am I a terrorist? Would you associate me with someone who wants to force you to live your life according to biblical standards? I would hope not. The far right doesn't seek to mandate anything of the sort...but that does not mean they won't have opinions on what is happening in our country, and try to stop some of the abhorrent changes it is embracing at break neck speed. At the end of the day..we all have one voice...our vote...and let each vote according to his own conscience...wherever that conscience came from, or what it is based on. It is a free country still Nate....and I would never seek to force anyone to follow my morality, and would never belittle nor attempt to minimize anyone else's voice or opinion....and I hope you aren't either.

I have never considered you far right... that doesn't in any way lessen your perceived conviction and faith in my eyes, but serves as a comment and compliment on your application of that faith... there are plenty here in the United States who would realign this nation according to their faith... who would tear down art, destroy music and literature, who would consider a march backwards into the shadows of religious leadership progress... who would eject people of other faiths from our nation, who would restrict free speech... who use fear to control others... I went to those churches.... I know those people... they are promoters of fear and intolerance... they are terrorists who kill doctors, who march with signs that say God hates this person and that person is going to hell... who replace God as judge... they impose their version of morality on others... they advocate the denial of others rights and freedoms... they are just a prayer cloth and an extra prophet from the some of the people they most loathe...

Fundamentalism is fundamentalism... extremism is extremism... promoting fear to intimidate and control others is terrorism...

Dolphan7
12-30-2009, 09:13 PM
I have never considered you far right... that doesn't in any way lessen your perceived conviction and faith in my eyes, but serves as a comment and compliment on your application of that faith... there are plenty here in the United States who would realign this nation according to their faith... who would tear down art, destroy music and literature, who would consider a march backwards into the shadows of religious leadership progress... who would eject people of other faiths from our nation, who would restrict free speech... who use fear to control others... I went to those churches.... I know those people... they are promoters of fear and intolerance... they are terrorists who kill doctors, who march with signs that say God hates this person and that person is going to hell... who replace God as judge... they impose their version of morality on others... they advocate the denial of others rights and freedoms... they are just a prayer cloth and an extra prophet from the some of the people they most loathe...

Fundamentalism is fundamentalism... extremism is extremism... promoting fear to intimidate and control others is terrorism...There are always a few bad apples in the barrel. Doesn't mean the entire barrel should be discarded.

Careful with your labels......

promoting fear to intimidate and control others is terrorism

......as this could apply to our current President.

poornate
12-30-2009, 09:22 PM
...I can't see that... but I know the churches I grew up in D7... and I think that saying a few bad apples is reducing the issue... I saw deacons threaten to burn a church down when a black man came to it if the preacher didn't tell him not to return... I've seen tiny children berated into weeping for their sins... I've seen violent indoctrinations... people striking themselves in religious fits until blood is drawn... not at one church, either... not at one place or at one time... or in one state even... My upbringing is why my children have never been into a church... I wouldn't run the risk of exposing them to all of that insanity... church, religion, and faith all occupy distinctly separate places in my mind....

HansMojo
12-30-2009, 09:51 PM
...I can't see that... but I know the churches I grew up in D7... and I think that saying a few bad apples is reducing the issue... I saw deacons threaten to burn a church down when a black man came to it if the preacher didn't tell him not to return... I've seen tiny children berated into weeping for their sins... I've seen violent indoctrinations... people striking themselves in religious fits until blood is drawn... not at one church, either... not at one place or at one time... or in one state even... My upbringing is why my children have never been into a church... I wouldn't run the risk of exposing them to all of that insanity... church, religion, and faith all occupy distinctly separate places in my mind....

Dang Nate, that's some crazy stuff. Where did you grow up? What kind of churches were these? I want to make sure I avoid them at all costs...

poornate
12-30-2009, 09:56 PM
Southern Baptist and Assembly of God... (I also went to a really good church when I was a child that was wholesome, welcoming, and inclusive... under a pretty famous preacher named Criswoll sp?)

HansMojo
12-30-2009, 10:09 PM
Southern Baptist and Assembly of God... (I also went to a really good church when I was a child that was wholesome, welcoming, and inclusive... under a pretty famous preacher named Criswoll sp?)

Sorry you had those experiences man. There is really no excuse for that kind of stuff. I've been to some dead churches, but nothing like what you experienced. There are some pretty great ones too and I'm glad you also went to Pastor Criswoll's church as a child so that you could at least experience the other side of church life as well.

To me, church is a wonderful experience that I look forward to. It sickens me that you and many others have had to experience what you did.

poornate
12-30-2009, 10:12 PM
I've briefly talked to D7 about it before... a year ago at least... i am religiously conflicted...

HansMojo
12-30-2009, 10:19 PM
I've briefly talked to D7 about it before... a year ago at least... i am religiously conflicted...

I can see why... My hope for you is that you can somehow avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water, but I don't blame you for being upset about your experiences. I would be upset too.

Vaark
12-30-2009, 10:19 PM
Yes indeed....many are lost.......far too many. We focus on those that show an interest....of which there are probably very few of those on this board.

you know D7, you seem like a pretty nice guy who's totally enmeshed in your thing. I've been involved for many years in a business where after the fact, in debriefing business people who've met, it never ceased to amaze me how at odds each of their reality and perceptions were compared to the other party's. I'm not saying that either was right, although sometimes that was the case. In this case I know you don't mean to be supercilious or insulting, but that's the way you're coming off.

Long way of saying that despite your conviction, yours is not necessarily the way compared to someone else and their conviction. If radical Islamists are ready to kill if unable to convert because (falsely) they believe it's a rudimentary tenet of the Koran, I'd say they've got as much commitment, conviction and fervor about their religion being the only true way, as do people deeply immersed in their own other religions.

The point I'm trying to make, and probably poorly, is that I'm sure your intent is not to be insulting although your above quote surely is based on the perceptions of folks like me who don't necessarily prescribe to your views. You're coming off as an instrument of "the only way" to be "saved" when as an example, folks like me, respect what you believe but think it's more fairytale than spiritual roadmap. It would be insulting to Jews who know they properly worship whom they believe to be the real god directly without need for a middleman, and of course to even moderate Islamics who do their good works and look forward to what they believe is a real afterlife reward by following the tenets of their true religion.

So you should really tone it down when you're essentially commiserating with your fellow practitioners that essentially anyone who doesn't share the Jesus path is doomed to eternal peril. You may be well-meaning but your perception of reality is not my perception and while you think you've got the definitive answer, I'm just one of many who empirically suspects that you probably don't.

I know you don't mean to disparage, but when you talk about "us" inferring true way enlightenment and "them" for all intents and purposes being all the majority of us FH'ers being too hardheaded or dense to see things your way, well hell, it is damn insulting!

As a postscript: I do like Dolphan7's secular postings and even in threads in this section, he seems to be more accepting that not everyone shares his beliefs and less heavy handedly judgmental about the fate of those who don't. Consequently, as someone who spent 20 years observing the often huge schism between two party's perception of reality springing from the same meeting, I'm offering this up specifically to him a heads-up about the signals he emitting....and really am not interested in any self-righteous, resentful or lecturing responses from anyone else as they directly pertain to the subject matter of this thread, thank you.

poornate
12-30-2009, 10:23 PM
I looked him up... it was WA Criswell... he has his own Bible :lol:

HansMojo
12-30-2009, 10:40 PM
I looked him up... it was WA Criswell... he has his own Bible :lol:

http://www.amazon.com/Criswell-Study-Bible-Authorized-version/dp/B000O2KA2W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262227056&sr=1-3

There you go. :lol:

It's a KJV, but he wrote the study notes. Very cool. :up:

Dolphan7
12-31-2009, 02:05 PM
you know D7, you seem like a pretty nice guy who's totally enmeshed in your thing. I've been involved for many years in a business where after the fact, in debriefing business people who've met, it never ceased to amaze me how at odds each of their reality and perceptions were compared to the other party's. I'm not saying that either was right, although sometimes that was the case. In this case I know you don't mean to be supercilious or insulting, but that's the way you're coming off.

Vaark! I thought you were done with this thread man? Welcome back. Look, I am sorry that you feel I was being insulting, I certainly don't intend to insult, nor make fun or comical humor of others beliefs. The quoted post of mine was intended for a fellow believer and was not related to any specific user, so I am sorry if you felt offended by it. The fact is, many are not interested in the Christian God, and it is not our job to chase those individuals around and try to convince them, or even respond to their never ending questions, of which the answers are not even listened to. There are those who do show an interest in God, or are at least capable of offering a good debate, as long as it is civil and respectful.


Long way of saying that despite your conviction, yours is not necessarily the way compared to someone else and their conviction. If radical Islamists are ready to kill if unable to convert because (falsely) they believe it's a rudimentary tenet of the Koran, I'd say they've got as much commitment, conviction and fervor about their religion being the only true way, as do people deeply immersed in their own other religions.I am very well aware that there are other beliefs in the world. And their constituents are just as devout, and in many cases more so, than others.


The point I'm trying to make, and probably poorly, is that I'm sure your intent is not to be insulting although your above quote surely is based on the perceptions of folks like me who don't necessarily prescribe to your views. You're coming off as an instrument of "the only way" to be "saved" when as an example, folks like me, respect what you believe but think it's more fairytale than spiritual road map. It would be insulting to Jews who know they properly worship whom they believe to be the real god directly without need for a middleman, and of course to even moderate Islamics who do their good works and look forward to what they believe is a real afterlife reward by following the tenets of their true religion.Well...I am sorry you feel insulted by the Christian Faith. I try to explain my faith as best I can, and I think I do a fairly good job at it. It is all I can do. I am only the messenger. If people of other beliefs feel insulted by the tenets of Christianity, well.....there really isn't anything I or anyone else can do about that....it is what it is and I can't change the Bible. I find it rather interesting that you consider my comments and what the bible teaches as insulting....yet....I refer you to the original post in this thread and ask you if you think that some would perceive your post as insulting? Or comments such as "more fairytale"? I think it is hypocritical in a sense. Do you see me or anyone else making fun of "Deism"?


So you should really tone it down when you're essentially commiserating with your fellow practitioners that essentially anyone who doesn't share the Jesus path is doomed to eternal peril. You may be well-meaning but your perception of reality is not my perception and while you think you've got the definitive answer, I'm just one of many who empirically suspects that you probably don't. Well....thank you for your suggestion...I certainly hope that I can be more sensitive to others feelings, but.....there are lines I simply won't cross, or compromise my faith in any way. I try to follow what the bible says, knowing full well it won't be received well by many...it is for those few whom are interested. I speak the truth of what the bible teaches. I don't try to disguise it to make it sound more appealing, I don't try to sugar coat it to make it easier on the palate. The simple fact of Christianity is that those who reject Jesus are indeed doomed to hell. It doesn't give me any pleasure to say that, but it is the truth, according to the bible. And I will tell anyone and everyone I can not to go down that road, and pray they will listen, but in the end it is up to them.


I know you don't mean to disparage, but when you talk about "us" inferring true way enlightenment and "them" for all intents and purposes being all the majority of us FH'ers being too hardheaded or dense to see things your way, well hell, it is damn insulting!Well....you haven't been around the religion forum then for very long. Despite the poll in the other thread...most who "post" in here are not really interested in the Christian God. I certainly would love to see more believers post here, but alas...there are only a handful of us...thus my comment. That does not mean that there aren't a majority of believers in all of FH, there just may be...(refer to the poll again)..they simply don't post in here.


As a postscript: I do like Dolphan7's secular postings and even in threads in this section, he seems to be more accepting that not everyone shares his beliefs and less heavy handedly judgmental about the fate of those who don't. Consequently, as someone who spent 20 years observing the often huge schism between two party's perception of reality springing from the same meeting, I'm offering this up specifically to him a heads-up about the signals he emitting....and really am not interested in any self-righteous, resentful or lecturing responses from anyone else as they directly pertain to the subject matter of this thread, thank you.Thanks Vaark. I highly value your input and your contribution to the site, especially your mastery of satirical comedy!

I understand your point regarding two differing views of the same meeting, or event. That is what I call relative perception. In regards to religion and faith it would be called relative truth. I don't believe truth is relative, although it permeates our society and indeed our planet. I believe truth is absolute. I believe there is only one truth. There is only one way to look at it and it is this ....there can only be one true religion, or they are all false.....nothing in between. Now the next logical question would be ...which one is it? Which religion is the one true religion? I believe it is the Christian God. I believe it because it is true, not simply because I believe it is true. That's existentialism. I believe it because it is true, not because "it works for me". That is just practicality.

Truth creates belief, not belief creates truth. But this is a topic we can take up in another thread if you want.

And if all religion is false, including yours and mine, then we are all just random chance lifeforms that miraculously just happened to survive on this planet, and some day will become extinct....and then we are back to nothing again. Kind of a harrowing thought actually.

Dolphan7
12-31-2009, 02:08 PM
Southern Baptist and Assembly of God... (I also went to a really good church when I was a child that was wholesome, welcoming, and inclusive... under a pretty famous preacher named Criswoll sp?)I have been in a Southern Baptist church, as well as an Assembly of God. In fact I know of some pretty good ones of each....and some pretty bad ones of each...in fact terrible representations of what the Christian Church should be all about.

It gets back to my point Nate.....there are some bad apples in every barrel. Don't discard the entire barrel, simply remove the bad apples.

1Hawdolfin4L
12-31-2009, 02:45 PM
and I think that saying a few bad apples is reducing the issue... I saw deacons threaten to burn a church down when a black man came to it if the preacher didn't tell him not to return... I've seen tiny children berated into weeping for their sins... I've seen violent indoctrinations... people striking themselves in religious fits until blood is drawn... not at one church, either... not at one place or at one time... or in one state even... 3 Things

1st , This verse may be speaking about some of the preachers that you may have come across. They may fool you and me, but they won’t fool Jesus.

Matt. 7: 22-23 LB
At the Judgment many will tell me, “Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.” But I will reply, “You have never been mine. Go away for your deeds are evil.

2nd Check on yourself

2Corinthians 13:5 LB
Check up on yourselves. Are you really Christians? Do you pass the test?

3rd Check on them

1Thessalonians 5:21
Do not scoff at those who prophesy but TEST EVERYTHING that is said to be sure it is true

If any right wing preacher should advocate beheading people I can assure you fellow Christians(not the media or gov.) who are well versed in the Bible WILL speak out and expose the folly.
Now that you have gone through all of your experiences, it should not be kept inside but should be exposed, so that fellow relatives, friends and people should not be deceived. If your Dad or yourself were well- read in the scriptures, some of this could have been avoided, and maybe your Dad was well-read and that is why you changed church often but things happen for a reason.
I urge you to read the story of Joseph in the Book of Genesis. This looks bad at first, but it isn’t.
But for the thread I will summarize it quickly.
Joseph brothers wanted to kill him because in a dream he saw himself ruling over them.
After capturing him, they by guilt...could not kill him, so they threw him down a large hole to die a natural death.
He is eventually rescued by strangers, after… he ends up in Egypt where he becomes the 2nd highest in command and saves his brothers from starvation.
The dream was correct because he became very powerful, and if his brothers didn’t throw him in the hole, he would not have gone to Egypt.

Lastly teach your children the Bible…so that they won’t get fooled.

Vaark
12-31-2009, 03:04 PM
Vaark! I thought you were done with this thread man? Welcome back.

What can I tell ya D7, I've probably got less impulse control than the average bear. Also, don't discount that FH'ers are my "flock" and I'd be doing a disservice to everything Shula, if I didn't step in to help, eh?

Look, I am sorry that you feel I was being insulting, I certainly don't intend to insult, nor make fun or comical humor of others beliefs. Believe me, if I think you did, I wouldn't have returned. I'm just sensitive to the unintentional signals that would surprise people if they knew how they were received.


The quoted post of mine was intended for a fellow believer and was not related to any specific user, so I am sorry if you felt offended by it. The fact is, many are not interested in the Christian God, and it is not our job to chase those individuals around and try to convince them, or even respond to their never ending questions, of which the answers are not even listened to. There are those who do show an interest in God, or are at least capable of offering a good debate, as long as it is civil and respectful.

I am very well aware that there are other beliefs in the world. And their constituents are just as devout, and in many cases more so, than others.

Well...I am sorry you feel insulted by the Christian Faith. I try to explain my faith as best I can, and I think I do a fairly good job at it. It is all I can do. I am only the messenger.
Please understand the distinction between being insulted by the Christian Faith per se versus being insulted by the absolute, heavy handed, less-than-tolerant threatening know-it-all, often stifling attitude pervading many practitioners of all organized religions....and often hypocrisy! I certainly did not mean to infer that I take particular issue with any one of them, although I guess I do, but not the Christian one. Remember, I'm a Deist who believes in a supernatural being, is accepting of many of the results of his/her handiwork. I'm just not a fan of any organized one.


If people of other beliefs feel insulted by the tenets of Christianity, well.....there really isn't anything I or anyone else can do about that....it is what it is and I can't change the Bible. I find it rather interesting that you consider my comments and what the bible teaches as insulting....yet....I refer you to the original post in this thread and ask you if you think that some would perceive your post as insulting? Or comments such as "more fairytale"? I think it is hypocritical in a sense. Do you see me or anyone else making fun of "Deism"?

Well....thank you for your suggestion...I certainly hope that I can be more sensitive to others feelings, but.....there are lines I simply won't cross, or compromise my faith in any way. I try to follow what the bible says, knowing full well it won't be received well by many...it is for those few whom are interested. I speak the truth of what the bible teaches. I don't try to disguise it to make it sound more appealing, I don't try to sugar coat it to make it easier on the palate. The simple fact of Christianity is that those who reject Jesus are indeed doomed to hell. It doesn't give me any pleasure to say that, but it is the truth, according to the bible. And I will tell anyone and everyone I can not to go down that road, and pray they will listen, but in the end it is up to them.

Well....you haven't been around the religion forum then for very long. Despite the poll in the other thread...most who "post" in here are not really interested in the Christian God. I certainly would love to see more believers post here, but alas...there are only a handful of us...thus my comment. That does not mean that there aren't a majority of believers in all of FH, there just may be...(refer to the poll again)..they simply don't post in here.

Thanks Vaark. I highly value your input and your contribution to the site, especially your mastery of satirical comedy!Thanks D7, I appreciate that and don't hold the fact that I'm a heathen against me when it comes to voting in the upcoming FH awards and March Madness events. :thanks::d-day:


I understand your point regarding two differing views of the same meeting, or event. That is what I call relative perception. In regards to religion and faith it would be called relative truth. I don't believe truth is relative, although it permeates our society and indeed our planet. I believe truth is absolute. I believe there is only one truth. There is only one way to look at it and it is this ....there can only be one true religion, or they are all false.....nothing in between. Now the next logical question would be ...which one is it? Which religion is the one true religion? I believe it is the Christian God. I believe it because it is true, not simply because I believe it is true. That's existentialism. I believe it because it is true, not because "it works for me". That is just practicality. See, there ya go again. This is my main issue but I'm not gonna belabor it other than to say that there are people who think the words of L Ron Hubbard are prescient and instructive. But to each his own so long as one's beliefs or faiths make them a better person in this life, who am I to be judgmental or to say, eh?


Truth creates belief, not belief creates truth. But this is a topic we can take up in another thread if you want.It's a matter of the material and "proof" you are willing to accept as the baseboard of "truth" We differ there bro and always will.


And if all religion is false, including yours and mine, then we are all just random chance lifeforms that miraculously just happened to survive on this planet, and some day will become extinct....and then we are back to nothing again. Kind of a harrowing thought actually.It is a harrowing thought D7, and one I've pondered for many years. I think it's human nature to reject or overlook that thought despite what some of us empirically believe. But that's the easy way out. I have lost several people, including someone tragically very close to me before she turned 30 who I sure hope still exists in the netherregions out there but that's really just wishful thinking unless you choose to delude yourself or persuade yourself otherwise despite knowing better. To me, it is what it is, and if our existence is temporal, well that's the master plan too unless we come back as a lizard or something. :lol: . Personally as someone who has hurt people who hurt animals..since that's one of my few big hot buttons, I hope those tormentors get reincarnated as fighting pitbulls.

In any event, I guess I'm officially disengaged now and back to arguing with new york junk about the illegitimacy of the Jest sneaking in the back door. Thanks for indulging me.

Dolphan7
12-31-2009, 03:20 PM
Vaark...I fixed your post. You should really look into how to quote text. Oh...and it's D7....not F7. Maybe you have a very large index finger?

Thanks for your response..


I voted for you last March.....and probably will again ...unless a better candidate suddenly emerges......

rev kev
12-31-2009, 03:47 PM
Vaark...I fixed your post. You should really look into how to quote text. Oh...and it's D7....not F7. Maybe you have a very large index finger?

Thanks for your response..


I voted for you last March.....and probably will again ...unless a better candidate suddenly emerges......

Shameless Vaark's already pushing votes...?

Vaark
12-31-2009, 03:57 PM
Shameless Vaark's already pushing votes...?

Well Kev, according to Palin and Huckabee it's "the Christian thing to do" eh?

Vaark
12-31-2009, 04:04 PM
Vaark...I fixed your post. You should really look into how to quote text. Oh...and it's D7....not F7. Maybe you have a very large index finger?

Thanks for your response..


I voted for you last March.....and probably will again ...unless a better candidate suddenly emerges......

Thanks for the vote belatedly. But who could possibly be better??? :crazy:

A few other things before you send me on my way:
1) If you've run across my many posts in the main forum, (some say "too many"), especially when mocking Jest fans, you would know that I'm well aware how to insert quotes between the quote tags. In this instance to make selectively semphatic statement, I purposely elected to format it in the manner I did. You sir, are monkeying with my artistic expression!

2) Since we're now buds, I have arbitrarily nicknamed you "fins7" just as I refer to the team.....ergo the endearingly-intended shortened name. You should be flattered.

Dolphan7
12-31-2009, 04:34 PM
Thanks for the vote belatedly. But who could possibly be better??? :crazy:

A few other things before you send me on my way:
1) If you've run across my many posts in the main forum, (some say "too many"), especially when mocking Jest fans, you would know that I'm well aware how to insert quotes between the quote tags. In this instance to make selectively semphatic statement, I purposely elected to format it in the manner I did. You sir, are monkeying with my artistic expression!

2) Since we're now buds, I have arbitrarily nicknamed you "fins7" just as I refer to the team.....ergo the endearingly-intended shortened name. You should be flattered.
My humblest apologies to you sir.....may I never attempt to modify your Blue font again...!!!!:lol:

aesop
01-01-2010, 02:01 PM
It isn't fear mongering....but more like Truthmongering.

Jesus simply stated the Truth. Instead of saying - choose me or choose death.....as you think he is saying....he simply says.....you are already dead....come to me if you want to live...I will save you..I will redeem you. Those who choose him, are with him, will be on one side,,,, and those who don't take up His offer...will be on the other side.

I don't know of many other ways to put it, but if you continue to insist that Jesus is no more than a terrorist using fear tactics......this will be a very short conversation.....and I will have no continued part in it.'Truth-mongering' is fear-mongering when the alleged truth is an eternity in hell. You can dance around the quote all you want, it is meant to strike fear or at least make you think twice.

Dolphan7
01-01-2010, 02:52 PM
'Truth-mongering' is fear-mongering when the alleged truth is an eternity in hell. You can dance around the quote all you want, it is meant to strike fear or at least make you think twice.

I'll take "Make you think twice" for $200 Alex........

:lol:

aesop
01-02-2010, 12:48 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

CaSh
01-02-2010, 02:36 PM
Evolution FTW.

Dolphan7
01-02-2010, 04:53 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2010/01/picardfacepalm2-1.jpghttp://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif
(http://media.photobucket.com/image/picard/Blaze138/BlogStuff/picard-facepalm2.jpg?o=3)

Bumpus
01-30-2010, 02:45 PM
Vote Bumpus.

72champagne
01-31-2010, 12:39 AM
the entire thread = :facepalm:

Mazinator1027
01-31-2010, 12:52 AM
I usually stay out of these things, but you do realize you can say the same thing about Mohammed if you're driving down most any street in the Middle East or North Africa. Jesus is meaningless to them as Mohammed is to you. Ditto, Yahwah if you're a Lubavitch or Hassid or orthadox Jew anywhere in the world who believe that using a spiritual middleman is the equivalent of buying retail. :lol:

Every one of the above are so inculcated and reinforced in their belief that they're the one true path that IMO, none can see the forest from the trees.

I have long observed, going back to my own grandfather whom I loved dearly, that the more devout and unquestioning someone is in their own religion, the less tolerant or accepting are they of other organized religions and others beliefs. I don't know if more blood over the centuries has been shed over religious beliefs and conquests than land grabs, but if not, it's pretty close. As a result, I have long soured on any one religion based on faith and doctrine that may or may not be questionable, passed down as fact from generation to generation.

However, anyone who's objective understands from nature alone that there is a master plan and a supreme being setting it in place. And that's why I'm a Deist which affords me a spirituality without the guilt, hell and damnation and recriminations from not accepting Mohammed, Jesus, Yahwah or any organized religious symbol and the hoops they make you jump through.

www.deism.com (http://www.deism.com)


Im Muslim and i get what your saying but we actualy do believe in jesus. Jesus' name is mentioned more in the qoran than Mohammed actualy. We dont believe Mohammed is the son of God or anything eiither. I know that wasnt what your argument was about but i just wanted to make sure you understood.:up: Peace.

Mazinator1027
01-31-2010, 01:14 AM
Really?

The Koran does indeed say to KILL the infidels, thus if the Muslims fail to kill the infidels they are not following their leader. The EXTREMIST are the ones that are following their leader.

Now tell me where does Jesus say to kill the infidels.

Enlighten me on any far right Christian leader who wants to kill any infidel.

Name me leaders from the Christian right who have BEHEADED infidels.


BTW Rev. Jim is not following our leader Jesus by his actions, and YES by their actions the Taliban are engaged in following the actions of their leader.

Muslims are not supposed to kill people that are not Muslim. It says nowhere in the Qoran that your supposed to kill a random Jew or Christian off the street. Muslims are supposed to spread their knowledge to non muslims and if they dont except thats their fault. If a muslim does that then theyve done all they can do.
The only time going into war is exusable is if the rival force is occupying or taking land away from you. A perfect example would be what israel is doing to Palestine. Hamas is fighting back because israel is occupying palestine and killing palestinians.

1Hawdolfin4L
02-01-2010, 05:26 AM
Is Islam at WAR?

Islam has been dutifully following this mandate for 1,400 years, since the time Muhammed left Mecca for Medina. What we are facing is nothing less than an ISLAMIC WORLD WAR that rages on every continent except Antarctica, against everyone and everything “non-Islamic”.

Let’s look at the FACTS. Islam against:
- the Catholics in the Philippines (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Christians in Indonesia (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- Australian tourists in Bali (blown up…twice)
- the Buddhists in Thailand (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Hindus & Sikhs in India (hundreds of years battling the Islamic Jihad)
- the Jews in Mumbai (slaughtered)
- the Zoroastrians & Baha’i in Iran (virtually exterminated)
- Islamic converts to Christianity in Afghanistan (death fatwa)
- ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan (blown up)
- the Chaldean Christians in Iraq (routine persecution, slaughter & church burnings)
- the Jews in Israel (routine attacks against civilians, threat of 2nd genocide)
- the Jews in Yemen (nearly exterminated)
- S. Korean & German tourists in Yemen (blown up)
- the Coptic Christians in Egypt (routine persecution, slaughter & church attacks)
- the Christians & animists in Sudan (genocide)
- the Christians in Kenya (constant Jihadist threat from Obama’s homies)
- the Christians in Nigeria (routine Jihadist attacks)
- U.S. embassies in Tanzania & Kenya (blown up)
- the athiests in Europe (the prime target)
- the native French in Paris (torched car terrorism)
- Jews in Paris (read the grisly story of Ilan Halimi, a Jewish shop clerk who was kidnapped, tortured and killed in 2006)
- the native Swedes in Malmo (Islamic rape brigades)
- the native Dutch in Amsterdam (routinely terrorized)
- Dutch politicians (Geert Wilders & Ayyan Hirsi Ali – death fatwa)
- Dutch cinematographers (Theo vanGogh savagely murdered by an Islamist in broad daylight)
- Dutch cartoonists (Kurt Westergaard – death fatwa)
- Dutch newspaper editors (Flemming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s culture editor – death fatwa)
- Train commuters in Spain (blown up)
- Tube commuters in London (blown up)
- Airports in Scotland (blown up)
- Jews in Argentina (blown up)
- Jews in Caracas (blown up)
- Twin Tower office workers in N.Y. (blown up – twice)
- Defense workers in the Pentagon (blown up – airliner jihad)
- Army/Navy military recruiters in Little Rock (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Soldiers in F.t Hood Texas (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Pedestrians at the U. of N. Carolina (run down with an SUV by Islamist)
- Journalists like Daniel Pearl (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Nick Berg, Kim Sung-il, Piotr Stanczyk, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Paul Johnson (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Jewish centers in Seattle (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
- Jewish centers in Toronto (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
- Infidel Delta Airlines passengers (underwear bomber)

1Hawdolfin4L
02-01-2010, 05:27 AM
Please verify

1. Qur'an:47:4 "So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."
2. Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
3. Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
4. Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."
5. Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." (version?)
6. Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." (version?)
7. Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
8. Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission.

Vaark
02-01-2010, 10:41 AM
Muslims are not supposed to kill people that are not Muslim. It says nowhere in the Qoran that your supposed to kill a random Jew or Christian off the street. Muslims are supposed to spread their knowledge to non muslims and if they dont except thats their fault. If a muslim does that then theyve done all they can do.
The only time going into war is exusable is if the rival force is occupying or taking land away from you. A perfect example would be what israel is doing to Palestine. Hamas is fighting back because israel is occupying palestine and killing palestinians.

I'm gonna stay out of the political thing after this, but I do believe that if there were no organized religions there'd a lot less wholesale slaughter.

As far as Palestine is concerned, the comments I'd make is that they do have some traction in their territorial arguments against Israel until you look at the history of bloody crusades by Islamic forces over Christianity. I see no inclination for them to cede back any of the following land masses. The Palestinians have a valid cause but when fat ladies dance in the street over bombings, families get rewarded for bombers' dirty deeds, and write off innocent children sitting in a Sbarros in the middle of a large city as collateral damage, I for one have no problem with the Israelis systematically destroying the homes of the bombers' families. I also advocate wrapping the bombers' bodies in shrouds of pork but then again, I've always advocated that if you gouge out my eye, I'll take off your head.. screw "measured responses."

There are no innocents in that unfortunate conflict no matter how you care to depict it.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html