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Marc790
01-05-2010, 04:16 AM
Suppose with the 12th pick of the draft, Miami takes Dez Bryant to solve the wide receiver problem - or trades down to take a WR and safety, what would you want to do with the 44th pick?

Idealistically, at this point, QB Tim Tebow is still on the board - and because he'll probably be playing another position other than QB, how would you feel if the team drafted him as a TE?

The general belief in the NFL - Parcells not included, is that a team drafts the best player available, regardless of its needs. Parcells, however, says one has to draft a player who fits, based on a team's needs. That is, one player who is the best available on the board, while desirable, may not be the one the team truly needs.

That said, Miami clearly has a need to improve the tight end position - and if the best player available at 44 is Tebow, who could turn into a tight end, what are your opinions on taking him?

DolphinRay72
01-05-2010, 04:39 AM
no, enough with drafting average system QBs waste of pick.

DOLFAN_51
01-05-2010, 04:40 AM
I do believe Te is our biggest offensive need based on the type of offense I know Parcells would like to see us playing. One where the Te gets the ball about 70 times a season. If he could come in here and put up Jason Whitten numbers I don't think anyone would complain about that. But, unless Tebow plays Te in the senior bowl and puts up some outrageous numbers there is no way we draft him in the first three rounds. I would love to have him on our team though, I'm not even a Gators fan but I think there should be a picture of Tim Tebow in the dictionary next to football player.

3rdandinches
01-05-2010, 04:43 AM
No thanks, why not draft a guy that actually plays the position, just a thought!

Buff
01-05-2010, 04:52 AM
NO WAY.

we wasted our second pick 2 out of the past 3 years. Why waste it again.

Beck was a bust, as much as I wanted him to succeed. Henne is going well, & White will be a bust too.

Waste another pick on Tebow, (IMO he wont be around by the 44th anyways), no thanks.

Nick13
01-05-2010, 04:56 AM
realistically Dennis Pitta of BYU is still on the board then and he was a damn good TE in college. I love Tebow as a competitor and leader, but where has he shown he has the SKILLS to be a TE? can he catch? can he block 300 pound D-lineman? can he outrun NFL linebackers? too many questions for my liking when there is talent on the board who CAN do those things.

#1dolphinsfan
01-05-2010, 05:02 AM
if we were drafting the BPA ever year we wouldnt have drafted Pat White in the second round last year

Etuoo33
01-05-2010, 05:27 AM
Right team wrong player, Aaron Hernandez at #44

Lord Of Miami
01-05-2010, 05:53 AM
We could draft a real TE in the 4th round that could help us before 2012...........Get the point?

If Tebow comes into the draft saying he's going to be a TE in the NFL, he'll be lucky to be drafted before the 5th round.

Ozfin77
01-05-2010, 06:00 AM
Right from the top I was thinking Aaron Hernandez.....then I was impressed that someone, other than me, actually thinks the same.

I dont care what anyone says, Aaron Hernandez would be great for us as a pass catching TE. He can be taught the art of blocking as he matures into an elite TE for us, catching balls all day from Henne.

THAT would be my pick 44 asuming the kid comes out this year.

Clipse
01-05-2010, 08:05 AM
:lol: This is a joke right? I sure hope this ridiculous thread is. Tebow as a TE :lol::lol::lol::lol: Yea forget drafting real TE's like Jimmy Graham or Dennis Pitta when we can just draft Tebow who has shown the skillset of blocking 300 pound lineman, catching passes, running routes. :rolleyes2:

dr.jake
01-05-2010, 08:42 AM
miami dolphin second round qb picks:
2005 aj feeley
2006 culpepper
2007 beck
2008 henne
2009 pat white
NO WAY should we piss away another second rounder on the QB position!

Pinkboy
01-05-2010, 10:19 AM
I don't want anyone at #44 because the Dolphins don't pick there.

They pick earlier than 44.

Check the rules and the breakdown of the tie-breakers for subsequent rounds.

GeauxFinns3705
01-05-2010, 10:31 AM
No thanks, why not draft a guy that actually plays the position, just a thought!

ROFL...but why?

Some Fins fans make me laugh uncontrollably. I love the 3 paragraph and something insane post.

WelcomeBack
01-05-2010, 10:46 AM
If we're looking tight end in round 2, I'm looking towards Anthony McCoy. He's got it all in terms of what you look for, good size and decent speed. Good pass catching and blocking.

BARF
01-05-2010, 11:47 AM
part of me wants to trade down from 12 and pick up another 2nd rounder since all the good talent is there, i do not think we could afford a player at pick 12, but you never know

AphexPhin
01-05-2010, 12:08 PM
I'm hoping we can snatch Benn in the 2nd round but thats probably wishful thinking on my part.

Canadi-Phin
01-05-2010, 01:59 PM
Round 2 give me Jermaine Gresham, Brandon Graham, Ricky Sapp or Arrelious Benn if they fall. I wouldn't mind Nate Allen, Aaron Hernandez, depending on Ronnie maybe Jonathan Dwyer. Maybe even Greg Hardy, he had an off year but he is an impressive athlete.

MiamiDolfan85
01-05-2010, 02:32 PM
the only TE Im interested in is Jimmy Graham.

other than Gresham,no one is a clear cut player,and Jimmy would have the highest ceiling of all of 'em,being a 6'8" tight-end with 4.6 speed.

Tebow wouldnt be appealing to me in the 7th round,to be honest with you....

xxGrizzxx
01-05-2010, 02:47 PM
realistically Dennis Pitta of BYU is still on the board then and he was a damn good TE in college. I love Tebow as a competitor and leader, but where has he shown he has the SKILLS to be a TE? can he catch? can he block 300 pound D-lineman? can he outrun NFL linebackers? too many questions for my liking when there is talent on the board who CAN do those things.


He could out run ours...:ponder:

PhinsRDbest
01-05-2010, 02:56 PM
I'd be pissed off that once again they drafted a project qb in the 2nd round, thats how I feel.

ColonelJ
01-06-2010, 02:53 AM
Caz Piurowski TE. His daddy played for Bowden, and has played well. Go FSU! Undrafted.

Arsenal WV
01-06-2010, 09:49 AM
I honestly have no idea who we're going to get with the 44th

My predictions have us getting Eric Norwood,LB, South Carolina though

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Would I be crucified if I suggested that Miami look to give the #44 pick to a team in exchange for a first round pick in 2011?

Because that's probably the best option.

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 11:08 AM
If they can get a 2011 first round pick for the 44th, I'd be all for it.

mmitro55
01-06-2010, 11:21 AM
What should be done is for us to draft Tony Pike if he is available iin the 2nd. Henne is a good backup at best, and it wouldn't surprise me if we take another QB. Tebow shouldn't even be looked at until late 3rd and who knows what he will play.

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 11:23 AM
Pike over Henne? Really?

Henne did a good job as a first year starter.

GeauxFinns3705
01-06-2010, 11:24 AM
Would I be crucified if I suggested that Miami look to give the #44 pick to a team in exchange for a first round pick in 2011?

Because that's probably the best option.

Why is that the best option? We don't have any idea who is available. We don't know who we've signed as FAs, or what trades we have made.

If we sign Wilfork...and draft McClain....and the TE from OU is somehow unexpectedly there in the second, is it still the best option? I think not.

At some point, the future has to be now. In any case, to discuss the "best option" for April now is at best premature.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 11:31 AM
depending on what's there i wouldn't be opposed to trading the 2nd rounder for a 2011 1st

tony pike imo is garbage

Pinkboy
01-06-2010, 11:40 AM
Why is that the best option? We don't have any idea who is available. We don't know who we've signed as FAs, or what trades we have made.

If we sign Wilfork...and draft McClain....and the TE from OU is somehow unexpectedly there in the second, is it still the best option? I think not.

At some point, the future has to be now. In any case, to discuss the "best option" for April now is at best premature.

Well teams with foresight have done exactly that in recent memory. Trading a 2nd for a future first rounder.

I think where CK was coming from is the 2011 draft will be an excellent draft.

A better draft than this one. And with a top 32 pick instead of #43 there's better chances of getting an impact player.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 11:43 AM
i think this draft is gonna be loaded...but there also is some serious talent on the horizon next year

no doubt

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 12:02 PM
Why is that the best option? We don't have any idea who is available. We don't know who we've signed as FAs, or what trades we have made.

If we sign Wilfork...and draft McClain....and the TE from OU is somehow unexpectedly there in the second, is it still the best option? I think not.

At some point, the future has to be now. In any case, to discuss the "best option" for April now is at best premature.

Some of this to me seems like "we can't know that the earth revolves around the sun..."

I'm just saying that actually, yes we can know some of this stuff.

When it comes to the draft, I don't believe in the time value of draft picks. I don't believe there's a draft pick interest rate that makes a 2nd rounder in 2010 worth a 1st rounder in 2011. Winning in 2012 will mean just as much to us when we come to it in 2012, as winning in 2011 will mean to us in 2011. You can time things based on certain other factors like coaching tenure, the age of your best playmakers, even perhaps free agent contracts...but most people assume there's a default "interest rate" for draft picks and I don't see any proof of the validity of that, whatsoever.

Therefore, ANY time you can give up a 2nd rounder and get a 1st rounder in return, IMO you're just getting flat out free upgrade.

That said, there are a few reasons why draft picks in 2011 should be worth more, not less, than 2010 draft picks. In other words, if you had the #3 overall pick in 2010, and by some theoretical and inconceivable method you are able to trade the #3 in 2010 for a #10 in 2011, I believe you should do that. Here is why:

1. The pending wage scale. Everyone knows it will get done, what they don't know is just exactly what shape it will take. One thing that is CERTAIN, however, is that the inflation of rookie salaries at the top of the draft will stop. That means a #5 pick in 2011 will be worth more than a #5 pick in 2010 because in 2010 you're going to have to pay that guy a ton of money and in 2011 you will either be able to pay the guy much less money, which is what most people think will happen, or you'll at worst be paying him the same money as in 2010, which would still be a good deal because the salary cap tends to grow every year.

2. I've scouted the college players enough to know what is available in 2010, what will be available in 2011, and what could be available in 2011. And I can tell you right now, I'm salivating over the 2011 class. Everyone are obsessed with the idea that a record number of juniors will come out because of the wage scale and they assume this means that the 2010 draft will be deep and extremely talented. It's going to be what it's going to be, just because juniors come out that doesn't necessarily mean it's more talented. Fact of the matter is some of the best players in all of college football are second year players, not third year players. This would include the likes of QB Andrew Luck, WR Jonathan Baldwin, WR Julio Jones, WR Michael Floyd, WR A.J. Green, RB Mark Ingram, RB Ryan Williams, DE DaQuan Bowers, DE Robert Quinn, OLB Akeem Ayers, CB Patrick Peterson and FS Rahim Moore. And some of the really good draft eligibles have indicated that they're staying in school. This includes guys like QB Jake Locker, QB Ryan Mallett, QB Christian Ponder, TE Rob Gronkowski, WR Demaryius Thomas, OT Gabe Carimi, OT Nate Solder, OG Orlando Franklin, OG Rodney Hudson, OC Kris O'Dowd, the G/C Pouncey brothers, DE Cameron Heyward, DE Adrian Clayborn, DT Marvin Austin, DT Allen Bailey, DT Stephen Paea, LB Bruce Carter, LB Mark Herzlich, CB Amari Spievey, CB Ras-I Dowling, CB Kendric Burney, CB Charles Brown, FS Chad Jones, FS Deunta Williams and SS DeAndre McDaniel.

Sure you can just say that I don't know what I'm looking at, but that's convenient. Just because you don't do the research and look at these guys, know a lot about them, doesn't mean other people don't.

I believe wholeheartedly that trading the #44 for a first round pick in 2011 is the best strategy, and I don't have any problem saying it.

You know what team seems to walk into each draft with a ton of first day picks? The Patriots. Why? Because they're the most active team in football when it comes to trading present picks for a future, higher pick. They've done it a ton of times since Belichick joined. I have no doubt that Belichick, Pioli, and probably that mysterious Ernie Adams guy, decided long ago the same exact thing I have outlined...that present picks are worth approximately what future picks are and therefore any time you can get someone to give you a future pick that is a round higher than your present pick, it's probably a worthwhile trade because it's like free money in the long haul.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 12:21 PM
yeah that current 2nd year list of players is eye popping...premium talents available in 2011

not to mention the kids who stayed in school you listed

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 12:35 PM
I've never headed into a draft with such a clear picture of who I want in next year's draft and how this year's draft seems potentially disappointing in comparison.

I think there's a tendency to always think that this year's draft has disappointing talent, I seem to hear that every year, but it's usually not focused on what will be available in the future, it's usually in my experience backward-looking (e.g. "there's no Patrick Willis in this draft" etc)

GeauxFinns3705
01-06-2010, 01:03 PM
Well teams with foresight have done exactly that in recent memory. Trading a 2nd for a future first rounder.

I think where CK was coming from is the 2011 draft will be an excellent draft.

A better draft than this one. And with a top 32 pick instead of #43 there's better chances of getting an impact player.

How can he possibly know that? We need players NOW. I would be more interested in trading the 2011 first rounder for a pick in the 2010 draft.

I know, I know...we are building for the future, and the Sparano Supporters (SS Troops) have made it abundantly clear that he will have us good in 5-6 years if we just stay with him.

If thats the strategy, maybe its not bad.

But, if a projected top ten player is avail in the mid 20's, I would be all for trading back into the first round and using next year's first round pick as bait.

We need players that we can start developing. We have one good top-level player on this team...Jake Long. Everyone else is second rate.

I know everyone wants to trade down, but we need difference makers. I'll take one at any position on defense. Right now, we have two potentially good CBs, potentially a guy at FS who might develop, a backup NT, two DEs who have shown some potential (nothing to make us think either will be elite)...other than that, nothing!

Knowing my views vs most Fins fans, I am probably just no understanding DKParrot. He probably wants to build for the 2014 season, and I am thinking of 2010. Just difference in perspective, I suppose.

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 01:08 PM
I'm thinking of the long term success of the team, yes.

I do that with the full knowledge that in 2014, you will be talking about how we need to win football games in 2014, and how it's more important than winning games in 2017. And then in 2017, you will be talking about how we need to win games in 2017, and how it's more important than winning football games in 2021. And then in 2021...

GeauxFinns3705
01-06-2010, 01:09 PM
Some of this to me seems like "we can't know that the earth revolves around the sun..."

I'm just saying that actually, yes we can know some of this stuff.

When it comes to the draft, I don't believe in the time value of draft picks. I don't believe there's a draft pick interest rate that makes a 2nd rounder in 2010 worth a 1st rounder in 2011. Winning in 2012 will mean just as much to us when we come to it in 2012, as winning in 2011 will mean to us in 2011. You can time things based on certain other factors like coaching tenure, the age of your best playmakers, even perhaps free agent contracts...but most people assume there's a default "interest rate" for draft picks and I don't see any proof of the validity of that, whatsoever.

Therefore, ANY time you can give up a 2nd rounder and get a 1st rounder in return, IMO you're just getting flat out free upgrade.

That said, there are a few reasons why draft picks in 2011 should be worth more, not less, than 2010 draft picks. In other words, if you had the #3 overall pick in 2010, and by some theoretical and inconceivable method you are able to trade the #3 in 2010 for a #10 in 2011, I believe you should do that. Here is why:

1. The pending wage scale. Everyone knows it will get done, what they don't know is just exactly what shape it will take. One thing that is CERTAIN, however, is that the inflation of rookie salaries at the top of the draft will stop. That means a #5 pick in 2011 will be worth more than a #5 pick in 2010 because in 2010 you're going to have to pay that guy a ton of money and in 2011 you will either be able to pay the guy much less money, which is what most people think will happen, or you'll at worst be paying him the same money as in 2010, which would still be a good deal because the salary cap tends to grow every year.

2. I've scouted the college players enough to know what is available in 2010, what will be available in 2011, and what could be available in 2011. And I can tell you right now, I'm salivating over the 2011 class. Everyone are obsessed with the idea that a record number of juniors will come out because of the wage scale and they assume this means that the 2010 draft will be deep and extremely talented. It's going to be what it's going to be, just because juniors come out that doesn't necessarily mean it's more talented. Fact of the matter is some of the best players in all of college football are second year players, not third year players. This would include the likes of QB Andrew Luck, WR Jonathan Baldwin, WR Julio Jones, WR Michael Floyd, WR A.J. Green, RB Mark Ingram, RB Ryan Williams, DE DaQuan Bowers, DE Robert Quinn, OLB Akeem Ayers, CB Patrick Peterson and FS Rahim Moore. And some of the really good draft eligibles have indicated that they're staying in school. This includes guys like QB Jake Locker, QB Ryan Mallett, QB Christian Ponder, TE Rob Gronkowski, WR Demaryius Thomas, OT Gabe Carimi, OT Nate Solder, OG Orlando Franklin, OG Rodney Hudson, OC Kris O'Dowd, the G/C Pouncey brothers, DE Cameron Heyward, DE Adrian Clayborn, DT Marvin Austin, DT Allen Bailey, DT Stephen Paea, LB Bruce Carter, LB Mark Herzlich, CB Amari Spievey, CB Ras-I Dowling, CB Kendric Burney, CB Charles Brown, FS Chad Jones, FS Deunta Williams and SS DeAndre McDaniel.

Sure you can just say that I don't know what I'm looking at, but that's convenient. Just because you don't do the research and look at these guys, know a lot about them, doesn't mean other people don't.

I believe wholeheartedly that trading the #44 for a first round pick in 2011 is the best strategy, and I don't have any problem saying it.

You know what team seems to walk into each draft with a ton of first day picks? The Patriots. Why? Because they're the most active team in football when it comes to trading present picks for a future, higher pick. They've done it a ton of times since Belichick joined. I have no doubt that Belichick, Pioli, and probably that mysterious Ernie Adams guy, decided long ago the same exact thing I have outlined...that present picks are worth approximately what future picks are and therefore any time you can get someone to give you a future pick that is a round higher than your present pick, it's probably a worthwhile trade because it's like free money in the long haul.

You were also the one gloating about how you called Sean Smith the second best corner in last years draft. So, you obviously be wrong. But thanks anyway. I am assuming that you don't make a living doing this? Otherwise, you would have it in your bio. If you were all you seem to want to be, do you think someone might hire you? IOW, you are just like the rest of us here...you guess.

I guess you are wrong more than you are right. I also guess that you and I just have different standards for the team. To me, the 2010 season is what matters, not 2013 or 2014 or 2020. You and I just disagree.

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 01:15 PM
You were also the one gloating about how you called Sean Smith the second best corner in last years draft. So, you obviously be wrong. But thanks anyway. I am assuming that you don't make a living doing this? Otherwise, you would have it in your bio. If you were all you seem to want to be, do you think someone might hire you? IOW, you are just like the rest of us here...you guess.

I guess you are wrong more than you are right. I also guess that you and I just have different standards for the team. To me, the 2010 season is what matters, not 2013 or 2014 or 2020. You and I just disagree.

We still have no idea who the second best corner in the 2009 NFL Draft is/was. And yes, I take it with a little bit of pride that a guy that got drafted in the late 2nd round was a day one starter just like I said he could be. Those guys do not typically start from day one.

You think you have some kind of point by claiming that I can be wrong? That's pretty dumb. Mel Kiper is wrong a lot. Bill Polian is wrong a lot.

You're GUESSING that I'm wrong more than I'm right? Based on what?

And yes, I am just like any of you. If, that is, any of you were to spend years looking at college film 20 hours a week, 9 months of the year, doing draft evaluations for websites.

I never claimed to be different from anyone else. I just claim to work harder and have more experience than most people which I do not consider to be a knock on anyone.

Pinkboy
01-06-2010, 01:17 PM
CKParrothead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GeauxFinns

dahlmarino
01-06-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm thinking of the long term success of the team, yes.

I do that with the full knowledge that in 2014, you will be talking about how we need to win football games in 2014, and how it's more important than winning games in 2017. And then in 2017, you will be talking about how we need to win games in 2017, and how it's more important than winning football games in 2021. And then in 2021...

That's crazy talk! I will have died of a heart attack during a Dolphins game long before 2021. Possibly even before 2017!

Besides, I thought that teams with the same record rotated picks in each round, so wouldn't we have pick #42 or 43, seeing as we're the last 7-9 team to pick in round 1?

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 01:47 PM
We have the 12th pick in the first round, and therefore we'll have the 11th pick in the second round.

You're right that should be the #43 pick.

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 01:51 PM
But you get my point, Dahl. Winning is always important every year. Therefore, to me a 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick...so long as you're maintaining a strong enough pick selection in any given year that you don't have a big gap.

For instance you don't want to give away your entire 2010 draft for upgrades in 2011. That would leave you a gap among your drafting and that can be detrimental in other ways. The flow of contracts would be affected, and also it's like putting all your eggs in one draft basket when you should be looking to diversify with prospects from different years, because you don't want to end up with three years' worth of draft picks focused into one draft, and then that entire draft turn out to have crappy players.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 02:09 PM
it's ok ck...

i enjoy your analysis and breakdowns of prospects and the dolphins roster...

and i enjoy getting a different perspective or outlook on players also...

i'm not afraid to disagree with you as i'm sure you know but even though i can't speak for you i'm sure you enjoy people who bring more to the table than just taking your word as gospel

i wouldn't spend so much time talking players with you and what not if i

1. didn't think you were knowledgeable
2. didn't feel like i could learn something
3. didn't feel like you were putting in the homework to base your opinions on

that's why i enjoy talking with slimm so much also...and a few others on here i think really know their stuff

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 02:15 PM
it's ok ck...

i enjoy your analysis and breakdowns of prospects and the dolphins roster...

and i enjoy getting a different perspective or outlook on players also...

i'm not afraid to disagree with you as i'm sure you know but even though i can't speak for you i'm sure you enjoy people who bring more to the table than just taking your word as gospel

i wouldn't spend so much time talking players with you and what not if i

1. didn't think you were knowledgeable
2. didn't feel like i could learn something
3. didn't feel like you were putting in the homework to base your opinions on

that's why i enjoy talking with slimm so much also...and a few others on here i think really know their stuff

Some people feel that if you're not getting paid, you don't know your stuff and that's not the case.

If you know the game of football, know what to look for and put enough time and effort into it, you can scout talent very well.

CK does this. He knows what to look for. Knows who to watch and what they should be doing. I can say the same for Boomer, Con, Slimm and hoops as well.

RonnieB23
01-06-2010, 02:26 PM
I don't want anyone at #44 because the Dolphins don't pick there.

They pick earlier than 44.

Check the rules and the breakdown of the tie-breakers for subsequent rounds.

So, will it be the 10th or 11th pick in the 2nd ?

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 02:27 PM
that being said i don't know if any of you guys are gonna get me to come around on derrick morgan as a solb...lol

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 02:35 PM
that being said i don't know if any of you guys are gonna get me to come around on derrick morgan as a solb...lol

Your opinion is a valid one. He may, or may not. And you should only change your mind based on what you see, should you do so.

After watching Morgan last night, I do believe he can transition to SOLB. He was playing well in space. Pretty much all of the big run plays went opposite of him. He displayed a great bull rush and his spin move is pretty clean as well. When I did see him drop into coverage, he was right there with his man (even though they ran it away from him). He's not the fastest, but he's got pretty good speed and a relentless motor. When I saw them rush 3, and Morgan tried to get through 3 people to get to Stanzi, I was impressed. Stanzi scrambled and Morgan still broke off the blocks to catch him after a few yards.

TedSlimmJr
01-06-2010, 02:43 PM
I've read through all this twice and I'm still not sure what the hell I read....

Bottom line is the Patriots are the best in the league at stockpiling future draft picks.....especially 2nd rounders....that's where the VALUE is...even over 1st rounders in the latter part of the round....

I'll just about trade you my 25th overall pick for your 45th overall pick (and pick up extra picks in the process) every time....the Patriots are the best at doing this....they know how to do business...

The talent in 2011 is extremely rare....especially at positions that are perceived positions of need for Miami....(and positions that will be soon)..

If you expect Miami to do well in 2010....then their 2nd round pick is going to be late in the 2nd round anyway...

I'd rather have two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick in 2011..... than a 1st and 2nd round pick in 2010....

Hell, if you want you can even trade down with one of those extra 1st rounders and have a 1st rounder...two 2nd rounders....and two 3rd rounders, etc...

The draft is a game played by 32 teams in 32 different war rooms 32 different ways......you need all the ammunition you can get to manipulate it in your teams favor...

Picks = Ammunition

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 02:47 PM
Not if you draft players like Pat Turner :chuckle:

Still don't know how he'll turn out.

RealDriscoll
01-06-2010, 02:48 PM
Three tight ends on this draft I would want Jermaine Gresham of Oklahoma, Jimmy Graham of Miami, or Tony Moeki of Iowa

TedSlimmJr
01-06-2010, 02:50 PM
Not if you draft players like Pat Turner :chuckle:


Exactly...and they made up for it with Hartline in the 4th...

It's why you double up on draft picks at the same position....it's a strategy....to increase your odds of hitting on a position that you're trying to upgrade...

You break even on your picks in that scenario....but you come out with at least ONE player at the position that can contribute.....which was your only goal in the first place....

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 02:51 PM
Three tight ends on this draft I would want Jermaine Gresham of Oklahoma, Jimmy Graham of Miami, or Tony Moeki of Iowa

I'd still add McCoy to that list. Isn't spectacular, but does everything well.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 02:55 PM
Your opinion is a valid one. He may, or may not. And you should only change your mind based on what you see, should you do so.

After watching Morgan last night, I do believe he can transition to SOLB. He was playing well in space. Pretty much all of the big run plays went opposite of him. He displayed a great bull rush and his spin move is pretty clean as well. When I did see him drop into coverage, he was right there with his man (even though they ran it away from him). He's not the fastest, but he's got pretty good speed and a relentless motor. When I saw them rush 3, and Morgan tried to get through 3 people to get to Stanzi, I was impressed. Stanzi scrambled and Morgan still broke off the blocks to catch him after a few yards.

i'm gonna rewatch that 4th quarter when ck said morgan was showing olb skills

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 02:57 PM
i'm gonna rewatch that 4th quarter when ck said morgan was showing olb skills

He actually came out more in the 4th quarter in terms of showing his pass rush skills imo.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 02:57 PM
I am with you, 100%. I do feel, however, that if Dez Bryant is available at 12, we don't need to double up on WRs and we can focus on defense the remainder of the draft. This would be the ideal situation IMO.

yep...barring oline or rb i agree

you get dez you don't need another wr

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 03:00 PM
He actually came out more in the 4th quarter in terms of showing his pass rush skills imo.

point taken...i'm gonna rewatch the whole game

RealDriscoll
01-06-2010, 03:02 PM
Derrick Morgan can certainly translate to a SOLB. His pass rushing technique's are beautiful. He uses his hands, bends well, has solid closing speed. Needs work in coverage but that's why coaches get paid

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 03:02 PM
point taken...i'm gonna rewatch the whole game

Since I wasn't able to record the game, I'd actually like to see all your opinions after re-watching it. It's good input to read.

dahlmarino
01-06-2010, 03:03 PM
I do get your point, CK. A 2011 first round pick is worth as much as a 2010 first round pick, except that the talent field looks ridiculously deep next year.
I guess the next question would be this: How do you determine what positions to cover this year vs next year? And do you see players falling to the 3rd-4th round this year that could contribute quickly at a position of need?

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 03:03 PM
I appreciate the sentiments guys. I've come to respect a lot of peoples' opinions and a lot of peoples' eyes. I've had hundreds of people over the years come out acting like an *** hat, thinking they're suddenly going to prove in one sitting that I have no clue what I'm talking about. It's nothing new.

Above all just keep in mind that what I respect most of all is work, the work people put in to know what they're talking about. I'm a believer that if you're going to do something you might as well be good at it and with this stuff there's one pretty good way to be good at it and that's to work on it and care about it.

And as the the 2010 vs 2011 thing, Slimm put it very well and to the point. The 2011 draft looks like a rare gem to me right now and yes I'd give up 2010 picks to get a bigger piece of that pie. And absolutely the draft is a war game and you're much more maneuverable with more ammunition.

One thing I'm trying to communicate though is that winning in 2011 is going to seem just as important to us all in 2011 as winning in 2010 feels to us now...and so I question why a 2010 draft pick should by default be more coveted than a 2011 draft pick.

Pinkboy
01-06-2010, 03:03 PM
yep...barring oline or rb i agree

you get dez you don't need another wr

Or if you sign Antonio Bryant you don't need to draft a WR at all.

And concentrate on other areas of need.

RockyMtnPhinfan
01-06-2010, 03:05 PM
Would I be crucified if I suggested that Miami look to give the #44 pick to a team in exchange for a first round pick in 2011?

Because that's probably the best option.

I understand the thgouth process, i also think that the current regime sees this next year as a critical production year....you know- the time to win is now or else someone is going to the chopping block fast kind of situation. Year three of rebuilding, time to see some progress in the win column.

RealDriscoll
01-06-2010, 03:06 PM
Antonio Bryant gives us a good player who can start but does not answer our questions at Receiver. I think if we could start opening day with our receivers being Dez Bryant, Antonio Bryant, Davone Bess, Brian Hartline, and Patrick Turner we would be sitting pretty. This would move that we moved Ted Ginn and Greg Camarillo for some draft picks

RealDriscoll
01-06-2010, 03:07 PM
I could see Yeremiah Bell, Ted Ginn, Phillip Merling, Will Allen, Greg Camarillo and possibly Ronnie Brown being dangled for trade.

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 03:07 PM
I appreciate the sentiments guys. I've come to respect a lot of peoples' opinions and a lot of peoples' eyes. I've had hundreds of people over the years come out acting like an *** hat, thinking they're suddenly going to prove in one sitting that I have no clue what I'm talking about. It's nothing new.

Above all just keep in mind that what I respect most of all is work, the work people put in to know what they're talking about. I'm a believer that if you're going to do something you might as well be good at it and with this stuff there's one pretty good way to be good at it and that's to work on it and care about it.

And as the the 2010 vs 2011 thing, Slimm put it very well and to the point. The 2011 draft looks like a rare gem to me right now and yes I'd give up 2010 picks to get a bigger piece of that pie. And absolutely the draft is a war game and you're much more maneuverable with more ammunition.

One thing I'm trying to communicate though is that winning in 2011 is going to seem just as important to us all in 2011 as winning in 2010 feels to us now...and so I question why a 2010 draft pick should by default be more coveted than a 2011 draft pick.

Honestly, looking at the 2011 draft, the possible talent is amazing. As well as the seniors. I want to draft Dez Bryant this year, but I won't be upset if we went a different direction. Looking at next year, Jonathan Baldwin is looking amazing!

A 2nd rounder this year for a 1st rounder next year wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

Pinkboy
01-06-2010, 03:08 PM
Antonio Bryant gives us a good player who can start but does not answer our questions at Receiver. I think if we could start opening day with our receivers being Dez Bryant, Antonio Bryant, Davone Bess, Brian Hartline, and Patrick Turner we would be sitting pretty. This would move that we moved Ted Ginn and Greg Camarillo for some draft picks


Let's be realistic here. I do not see Parcells and Ireland spending a first rounder on a WR if they spend good money on Antonio Bryant.

No way no how.

Not with this crappy defense. And knowing how they value having a very good D.

Pinkboy
01-06-2010, 03:14 PM
Let me follow that up by saying if they sign a couple LB's in free agency (and not Antonio Bryant), then, and only then do I see them possibly picking Dez Bryant (if he falls to 12)

A lot of this will factor in when we see what they do when the FA period starts - and what moves they make with trades etc.

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 03:16 PM
I do get your point, CK. A 2011 first round pick is worth as much as a 2010 first round pick, except that the talent field looks ridiculously deep next year.
I guess the next question would be this: How do you determine what positions to cover this year vs next year? And do you see players falling to the 3rd-4th round this year that could contribute quickly at a position of need?

Your first question, honestly that seems like a question for Bill Parcells. You're talking about championship building, right there. I've never worked in the industry I've just sort of buzzed around it like a gnat. Doing that, you do learn some things, but you don't necessarily know them. From what I've seen over the years I think that Parcells has a plan of what positions to fix and when, my sense is that he seems to always work on the offensive and defensive lines first, simultaneously with quarterback. If last year is any indication, what they want to do after that is add skill guys on the perimeters. All I know is that you should probably go with what's available, and that there's no sense figuring you need a WR when there are none, or whatever...you just plan according to availability. That's one lesson you learn if you're a New England fan. The playbooks, both offensive and defensive, get thrown out basically every year. If they have RBs and TEs available to them then they'll run an attack that features them. If suddenly a glut of WRs become available they'll scrap the RB/TE thing and go 4-Wide. If the defensive talent availability works out a certain way, they're 4-3 right now more than they are 3-4. They plan ahead, according to availability...and I like that.

As for guys falling into the 3rd and 4th area that could contribute quickly at a position of need...my experience has generally been that when I'm convicted about guys like that in January, by the time April rolls around, they're not 3rd or 4th round guys anymore, they're 1st or 2nd round guys...so it's hard to say.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 03:19 PM
Or if you sign Antonio Bryant you don't need to draft a WR at all.

And concentrate on other areas of need.

true...but i don't necessarily consider antonio bryant a legit like top 10 wr in the league

better than what we have...absolutely

and i wouldn't give bryant $20 plus mil guaranteed off of 1 really good season...last year

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 03:21 PM
Let me follow that up by saying if they sign a couple LB's in free agency (and not Antonio Bryant), then, and only then do I see them possibly picking Dez Bryant (if he falls to 12)

A lot of this will factor in when we see what they do when the FA period starts - and what moves they make with trades etc.

absolutely

i'm just sticking to my theory over looking at most of these highly rated players on tape and watching them in games that for our current needs dez bryant is the bpa imo

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 03:23 PM
Just keep in mind that the benefit of a 2010 draft is generally felt more in 2011 and 2012 than in 2010. So when I mention that I'd trade 2010 picks for 2011 picks it means I'm sacrificing potential 2011-2012 benefits for 2012-2013 benefits.

I do believe we need to win now. That's one reason I believe we should focus on free agency for some of our biggest need positions like LB and WR.

I think if you do that, AND you use 2010 draft picks to acquire 2011 draft picks, you're sort of running a balance between trying to win now and being smart for the future.

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 03:24 PM
true...but i don't necessarily consider antonio bryant a legit like top 10 wr in the league

better than what we have...absolutely

and i wouldn't give bryant $20 plus mil guaranteed off of 1 really good season...last year

I wouldn't call him top 10, absolutely not. But that's being picky.

I'd certainly give him Justin Smiley/Gibril Wilson money though.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 03:25 PM
moreso...i'm looking at it now and off of game tape and the games i've watched if we're sitting at #12 and bryant is gone when we pick and most the guys we all like who we have rated higher are gone ie berry mcclain etc i'm leaning trade down...

i don't think jerry hughes for me right now warrants the #12 pick i don't think for me right now derrick morgan if he was there warrants the #12 pick at solb i don't think dan williams warrants is the more i look at players...

trade down and get a very good player in the 16-20 range and pick up picks...

of course trading down is much easier said than done...

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 03:26 PM
I wouldn't call him top 10, absolutely not. But that's being picky.

I'd certainly give him Justin Smiley/Gibril Wilson money though.

heck yeah so would i...but i doubt he's take it

but heck yeah i would do that

TedSlimmJr
01-06-2010, 03:26 PM
Your first question, honestly that seems like a question for Bill Parcells. You're talking about championship building, right there. I've never worked in the industry I've just sort of buzzed around it like a gnat. Doing that, you do learn some things, but you don't necessarily know them. From what I've seen over the years I think that Parcells has a plan of what positions to fix and when, my sense is that he seems to always work on the offensive and defensive lines first, simultaneously with quarterback. If last year is any indication, what they want to do after that is add skill guys on the perimeters. All I know is that you should probably go with what's available, and that there's no sense figuring you need a WR when there are none, or whatever...you just plan according to availability. That's one lesson you learn if you're a New England fan. The playbooks, both offensive and defensive, get thrown out basically every year. If they have RBs and TEs available to them then they'll run an attack that features them. If suddenly a glut of WRs become available they'll scrap the RB/TE thing and go 4-Wide. If the defensive talent availability works out a certain way, they're 4-3 right now more than they are 3-4. They plan ahead, according to availability...and I like that.

As for guys falling into the 3rd and 4th area that could contribute quickly at a position of need...my experience has generally been that when I'm convicted about guys like that in January, by the time April rolls around, they're not 3rd or 4th round guys anymore, they're 1st or 2nd round guys...so it's hard to say.


And this is why they feel like they don't have to overpay for their own free agents, or free agents period and can still win 9-16 games every year and be a playoff threat....

The stockpiling of 2nd round picks also goes back to your point of the flow of contracts......2nd round pick contracts are a lot easier to negotiate....they're cheaper...less binding 4 year deals, etc....as opposed to 5 year deals with all this guaranteed money....

They trade guys off that they don't want to overpay or need (Cassell, Seymour, Branch, etc.) for 1st round picks and/or multiple picks...

They never had that invested in the players in the first place most of the time...:lol:

And these stupid GM's around the league just keep helping the Patriots stay there by giving them even MORE picks....it's amazing to me...

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 03:28 PM
Just keep in mind that the benefit of a 2010 draft is generally felt more in 2011 and 2012 than in 2010. So when I mention that I'd trade 2010 picks for 2011 picks it means I'm sacrificing potential 2011-2012 benefits for 2012-2013 benefits.

I do believe we need to win now. That's one reason I believe we should focus on free agency for some of our biggest need positions like LB and WR.

I think if you do that, AND you use 2010 draft picks to acquire 2011 draft picks, you're sort of running a balance between trying to win now and being smart for the future.

i think that's sound thinking also

at lb get me karlos dansby at wr get me bryant...

AND CHEAP...lol

RealDriscoll
01-06-2010, 03:30 PM
Free agency comes first and I expect us to go after our defensive needs there. Not saying we will get them all accomplished but I think we will find ourselves with a new Inside Linebacker and a New Outside Linebacker. Joey Porter won't be a Dolphin come April.... Book it

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 03:48 PM
And this is why they feel like they don't have to overpay for their own free agents, or free agents period and can still win 9-16 games every year and be a playoff threat....

The stockpiling of 2nd round picks also goes back to your point of the flow of contracts......2nd round pick contracts are a lot easier to negotiate....they're cheaper...less binding 4 year deals, etc....as opposed to 5 year deals with all this guaranteed money....

They trade guys off that they don't want to overpay or need (Cassell, Seymour, Branch, etc.) for 1st round picks and/or multiple picks...

They never had that invested in the players in the first place most of the time...:lol:

And these stupid GM's around the league just keep helping the Patriots stay there by giving them even MORE picks....it's amazing to me...

It pisses me off to no end. It particularly pisses me off when teams continue to give up a future 1st for a present Patriots 2nd rounder...which has to have happened at least three times since Belichick took over. They also regularly give him a future 2nd for a present 3rd, that has to have happened about four times.

When will the other teams learn that this is a continual source of their draft wealth? If I were a GM that would be my first order of business...never, under any circumstance, give up a round by trading a future pick for a present pick. Second order of business, whenever an opportunity presents itself, and provided you have plenty of draft picks left in the hopper, do not hesitate to trade away a present pick for someone else's higher future pick.

Luckily, I don't think the Pats have drafted so hot over the last three or four years.

Unluckily, Belichick stumbled into a small boon when he asked for Al Davis' 2010 1st round pick for Richard Seymour, and Davis actually insisted it be the 2011 pick. Ugh.

hooshoops
01-06-2010, 03:50 PM
yep that 2011 pick the raiders gave for a 1 year loan possibly of richard seymour has top 10 written all over it

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 04:00 PM
Not only that, but top 10 in a year where there will probably be a rookie wage scale, and in a draft where the talent looks downright rare.

Do you know how much my year will be ruined if they're able to parlay that pick into someone like Jonathan Baldwin or Patrick Peterson? Or my god, what if Mark Herzlich makes some kind of miracle comeback from cancer and he looks the same as he did pre-cancer? **** me. I get pissed off just thinking about it.

3rdandinches
01-06-2010, 04:02 PM
It pisses me off to no end. It particularly pisses me off when teams continue to give up a future 1st for a present Patriots 2nd rounder...which has to have happened at least three times since Belichick took over. They also regularly give him a future 2nd for a present 3rd, that has to have happened about four times.

When will the other teams learn that this is a continual source of their draft wealth? If I were a GM that would be my first order of business...never, under any circumstance, give up a round by trading a future pick for a present pick. Second order of business, whenever an opportunity presents itself, and provided you have plenty of draft picks left in the hopper, do not hesitate to trade away a present pick for someone else's higher future pick.

Luckily, I don't think the Pats have drafted so hot over the last three or four years.

Unluckily, Belichick stumbled into a small boon when he asked for Al Davis' 2010 1st round pick for Richard Seymour, and Davis actually insisted it be the 2011 pick. Ugh.


Last draft killed me when Carolina gave up their 1st pick in 2010 to SF for their 2nd right in front of our pick. Why not us!!!!!! Then to top it off we select P.White but thats not here nor there.

I truely hope we trade back this year from early in the first to the early 20's. We have to many needs especially for depth and the more picks the better.

ckparrothead
01-06-2010, 04:04 PM
The only trade like that, that I may have actually approved, was when Carolina traded away a future 1st in order to get a crack at Jeff Otah. I just thought Otah was THAT good. Still do.

RealDriscoll
01-06-2010, 04:20 PM
The Raiders trade for Seymour is why the team suchs on a yearly basis. I know they are going to take a big-time Receiver to play with Moss and Welker.

BARF
01-06-2010, 05:16 PM
remember we don't need to get all of our players from college, we are also getting players from canada, so if we don't trade down and get more picks it will not suprise me, we need a playmaker at pick 12

Quadfather
01-06-2010, 05:34 PM
I say we go defense with the first pick, linebacker or safety, preferably rolondo mclain if hes still there, and then take a wide out with the 44th pick. i like demaryius thomas or desmond briscoe if they are there.

WelcomeBack
01-06-2010, 05:51 PM
I say we go defense with the first pick, linebacker or safety, preferably rolondo mclain if hes still there, and then take a wide out with the 44th pick. i like demaryius thomas or desmond briscoe if they are there.

Thomas said he was returning for his senior season.

MiamiDolfan85
01-06-2010, 07:13 PM
What should be done is for us to draft Tony Pike if he is available iin the 2nd. Henne is a good backup at best, and it wouldn't surprise me if we take another QB. Tebow shouldn't even be looked at until late 3rd and who knows what he will play.
if we take another QB,were gonna set our franchise back and 5 years,so no thank you.....Henne is good enough to win in January w/

GeauxFinns3705
01-07-2010, 01:10 AM
CKParrothead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GeauxFinns

LOL...Yes, of course he is!:lol2:

GeauxFinns3705
01-07-2010, 01:13 AM
That's crazy talk! I will have died of a heart attack during a Dolphins game long before 2021. Possibly even before 2017!

Besides, I thought that teams with the same record rotated picks in each round, so wouldn't we have pick #42 or 43, seeing as we're the last 7-9 team to pick in round 1?

CK cares so much about 2021...LOL...he spends 80 hours a week looking at film...which is why he projected we would take the OLB from GT with our first pick...a guy that went in the third round to Cincy. All that film and all those hours really pay off, eh? ROFLMAO. What a tool.

GeauxFinns3705
01-07-2010, 01:16 AM
Some people feel that if you're not getting paid, you don't know your stuff and that's not the case.

If you know the game of football, know what to look for and put enough time and effort into it, you can scout talent very well.

CK does this. He knows what to look for. Knows who to watch and what they should be doing. I can say the same for Boomer, Con, Slimm and hoops as well.

Exactly. But if you don't get paid, you are just like everyone else that watches football. I've seen CK around. His knowledge is nothing special. He is wrong more than he is right. But he acts like, and he gets treated like, he is something special. He is not.

GeauxFinns3705
01-07-2010, 01:22 AM
I've read through all this twice and I'm still not sure what the hell I read....

Bottom line is the Patriots are the best in the league at stockpiling future draft picks.....especially 2nd rounders....that's where the VALUE is...even over 1st rounders in the latter part of the round....

I'll just about trade you my 25th overall pick for your 45th overall pick (and pick up extra picks in the process) every time....the Patriots are the best at doing this....they know how to do business...

The talent in 2011 is extremely rare....especially at positions that are perceived positions of need for Miami....(and positions that will be soon)..

If you expect Miami to do well in 2010....then their 2nd round pick is going to be late in the 2nd round anyway...

I'd rather have two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick in 2011..... than a 1st and 2nd round pick in 2010....

Hell, if you want you can even trade down with one of those extra 1st rounders and have a 1st rounder...two 2nd rounders....and two 3rd rounders, etc...

The draft is a game played by 32 teams in 32 different war rooms 32 different ways......you need all the ammunition you can get to manipulate it in your teams favor...

Picks = Ammunition

I agree that it may be a good strategy. But the Patriots didn't start doing that until after they had already assembled alot of talent. I think right now, we have to start assembling talent for 2010. Every draft has talent if you pick the right players.

And, if we don't see value at our pick at 43, then it may make perfect sense to trade for 2011. But to say now that its the best strategy for April, thats speculative at best.

IMO, there needs to be a sense of urgency on this team. Not worried about 2014. 2010 is hopefully what the FO is focused on.

GeauxFinns3705
01-07-2010, 01:36 AM
The only trade like that, that I may have actually approved, was when Carolina traded away a future 1st in order to get a crack at Jeff Otah. I just thought Otah was THAT good. Still do.

This is my point. You don't know who will be avail so you don't know what the best strategy will be. Slimm made a good point...second round is where the talent is that is cheap to sign. So, if you have a first round grade on a player and its early second round, and its a position of need it might be a good thing to trade next years pick for a player that you can get now.

Now, if this FO drafts like I think they will and coaches like I think they will, it won't matter, because we'll be bad in 2010 anyway.

PALMA
01-07-2010, 01:49 AM
This regime plays not lose and I fear that they also draft not to lose. Ireland comes on after each draft day spouting about how the draft is a complicated process, and they did the best they could with what they had. In reality they were too scared to move around the draft for fear that they'd lose a 'Patrick Turner' or a token reach.

GeauxFinns3705
01-07-2010, 10:34 AM
This regime plays not lose and I fear that they also draft not to lose. Ireland comes on after each draft day spouting about how the draft is a complicated process, and they did the best they could with what they had. In reality they were too scared to move around the draft for fear that they'd lose a 'Patrick Turner' or a token reach.

Exactly. They didn't start with the wildcat until we were 0-2 and facing NE on the road. They didn't start playing Henne (allegedly the QB of the future) until Chad went down. There isn't a hint of boldness in this staff or FO, in anything they do. Except for picking Pat White.

RockyMtnPhinfan
01-07-2010, 12:42 PM
This regime has has more contribution from their draftees than any other that i can recall, so i trust them to hit on a minimum of half their draftees and they have so far.
Arrelious Benn for our 43rd pick in the 2010 draft.
If he is gone i think they will draft the best WR out there at that point in the draft.
#12 Rolando McClain (or someone defensive if he is gone)
#43 Arrelious Benn (or best WR available)
#74 Dan Williams (hopefully Norwood drops to us here)

This is my wish list, as unrealisticas it may seem. :)