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j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 02:06 PM
1. J. Hughes
2. B. Graham
3. E. Griffen
4. D. Morgan
5. S. Kindle
6. R. Sapp
7. J. Pierre-Paul
8. J. Worilds
9. K. Misi
10. E. Norwood

. . .

Note: this is how I rank the players - not the order in which I see them being drafted. Also, I have a tough time with players 4-6. I have some questions about Morgan as a OLB, but I like him a good deal as a player, so I gave him the nod. Also, Hughes ranking reflects the state of the league and the premium on pass D. I don't think he's the most complete OLB prospect, but I think he'll be the best against the pass (combination of pass rush and coverage ability).

Post your own, comment, whatever sounds, etc.

#1dolphinsfan
03-08-2010, 02:15 PM
Hughes has been dropping down boards I am hoping that he is there in the second for us to grab

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 02:28 PM
I thought there was a slim chance he'd fall to the 2nd, but he's not. There will be some other very good OLB's in the 2nd, though.

hooshoops
03-08-2010, 02:42 PM
can't really argue with that order...although i have graham #1 and hughes #3 behind griffen

and i see norwood as a situational pass rusher in the pros...

justdev7
03-08-2010, 02:48 PM
I don't think Morgan is a 3-4 guy. Otherwise I like your board and I'm glad you have JPP were he belongs. I think Worilds will be a steal for whoever gets him. Most mocks have him going in the 4th or 5th but he's worth a 2nd or 3rd.

hooshoops
03-08-2010, 02:51 PM
if worilds goes in the 4th or 5th it won't be due to his not being talented enough to warrant a higher pick...he looked great in lb drills at the combine also...it will be due to lingering concerns about that shoulder of his...

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 03:12 PM
can't really argue with that order...although i have graham #1 and hughes #3 behind griffen

and i see norwood as a situational pass rusher in the pros...

The top three - as I see them - can really go in any order. It's about preference. So, I wouldn't have any problem with your order. And, both Graham and Griffen should be better against the run. I rate Hughes here for the same reason Mayock rates Thomas ahead of Berry. But, if I were Miami's GM, I'd definitely take one of the top three in the 1st and then either grab Kindle or Sapp in the 2nd or Misi or Worilds in the 3rd or 4th - depending on how things look to be shaking down.

The FO took advantage of a strong two rounds at CB last season. I expect them to do the same at OLB this season.

Troysif
03-08-2010, 03:14 PM
100% Agree with that. I Definitely think its all about which player 1 teams falls in love with that will determine the order they are drafted.

DeeAy3000
03-08-2010, 03:18 PM
I'm all about judging a player for what he does with pads on, not what he has done with pajamas on. With that being said, Brandon Graham is the most impressive guy for my money, and that is exactly who I want with the 12th pick.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 03:23 PM
I'm all about judging a player for what he does with pads on, not what he has done with pajamas on. With that being said, Brandon Graham is the most impressive guy for my money, and that is exactly who I want with the 12th pick.

Graham and Hughes had the best careers. Hughes is a better pass rusher, and I think he'll be better in coverage. Graham is better against the run. If you're looking at projections and similarities, Graham looks like he can be the next L. Woodley, and J. Hughes reminds me of D. Ware. Don't think either would be considered a "miss."

TXFinFan
03-08-2010, 03:24 PM
I'm still sorta undecided on who I like better at OLB, although I am leaning towards Graham. I do think that unless some top 5 player falls to us at 12, we will take an OLB, no question about it. Parcells & Ireland consider OLB to be one of the most important positions on the team, and considering we don't have ANY proven OLB's, they will double down on OLB this year in the draft.

Not to mention that there is no NT worth taking at #12 this year.

52CANES
03-08-2010, 03:27 PM
As of 3/2/2010, here is WalterFootball.com's 3-4 Rush OLB Linebacker ranking:

1. Jason Pierre-Paul (Top 10 Pick)
2. Sergio Kindle (Round 1-2)
3. Jerry Hughes (Round 1-2)
4. Ricky Sapp (Round 2)
5. Koa Misi (Round 2-3)
6. Jason Worilds (Round 3-4)
7. Eric Norward (Round 3-4)
8. George Selvie (Round 4-5)
9. Cameron Sheffield (Round 4-5)
0. Antonio Coleman (Round 5-6)

Obvious omission is Brandon Graham, who he lists as the #3 4-3 DE and not with the 3-4 OLB's.

Troysif
03-08-2010, 03:30 PM
As of 3/2/2010, here is WalterFootball.com's 3-4 Rush OLB Linebacker ranking:

1. Jason Pierre-Paul (Top 10 Pick)
2. Sergio Kindle (Round 1-2)
3. Jerry Hughes (Round 1-2)
4. Ricky Sapp (Round 2)
5. Koa Misi (Round 2-3)
6. Jason Worilds (Round 3-4)
7. Eric Norward (Round 3-4)
8. George Selvie (Round 4-5)
9. Cameron Sheffield (Round 4-5)
0. Antonio Coleman (Round 5-6)
Apparently they don't see Brandon Graham as a 3-4 OLB?

EDIT: Your that being an obvious omission wasn't there when i read it originally Lol

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 03:36 PM
Apparently they don't see Brandon Graham as a 3-4 OLB?

EDIT: Your that being an obvious omission wasn't there when i read it originally Lol

Yeah, they have Graham, Morgan, and Griffen listed as 4-3 DE's.

newlownorder
03-08-2010, 03:42 PM
Worilds>Sapp, watch the tape, you'll see the difference.

DeeAy3000
03-08-2010, 03:42 PM
Graham and Hughes had the best careers. Hughes is a better pass rusher, and I think he'll be better in coverage. Graham is better against the run. If you're looking at projections and similarities, Graham looks like he can be the next L. Woodley, and J. Hughes reminds me of D. Ware. Don't think either would be considered a "miss."

Precisely. I'm real high on Hughes as well. If we decide to look elsewhere with the 12th pick, say, Dan Williams. I'd blow a gasket if we got Hughes in the 2nd. Mike Nolan would have the shiniest toys on the playground.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 03:44 PM
Precisely. I'm real high on Hughes as well. If we decide to look elsewhere with the 12th pick, say, Dan Williams. I'd blow a gasket if we got Hughes in the 2nd. Mike Nolan would have the shiniest toys on the playground.

If I thought Hughes would fall to the 2nd, I wouldn't think twice about drafting Graham and Hughes back-to-back. But, I just can't see it happening.

52CANES
03-08-2010, 03:46 PM
Apparently they don't see Brandon Graham as a 3-4 OLB?

EDIT: Your that being an obvious omission wasn't there when i read it originally Lol

Yeah I edited it... in his yearly summary of the player he lists him as a possible 3-4 OLB though, so maybe it was just an oversight.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 03:47 PM
Worilds>Sapp, watch the tape, you'll see the difference.

I like Worilds, and you can definitely make the case that he was the better player in college, but I think Nolan would utilize Sapp's explosion. Outside of Hughes, I see Sapp as having the most burst. It's still a bit untapped, but I think the value's there in the 2nd.

52CANES
03-08-2010, 03:48 PM
If I thought Hughes would fall to the 2nd, I wouldn't think twice about drafting Graham and Hughes back-to-back. But, I just can't see it happening.

I think Hughes can definitely be there in the 2nd.... What about Sapp there if he isnt?

52CANES
03-08-2010, 03:50 PM
I kinda like Koa Misi if we wait till 3rd or 4th round for OLB. I haven't seen tape of him though. Its a good sign that he had already lost 10 or 15lbs by the SENIOR BOWL so he could transition to Linebacker from DE.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 03:53 PM
I think Hughes can definitely be there in the 2nd.... What about Sapp there if he isnt?

I just don't see a scenario in which the best pass rusher in the draft falls out of the 1st. But, if we went Graham in the 1st - strong possibility - Sapp would still be an option (in my eyes) in the 2nd. Sapp probably compliments Graham better than he does Hughes.

52CANES
03-08-2010, 04:08 PM
I just don't see a scenario in which the best pass rusher in the draft falls out of the 1st. But, if we went Graham in the 1st - strong possibility - Sapp would still be an option (in my eyes) in the 2nd. Sapp probably compliments Graham better than he does Hughes.

Well we know that no one before us is likely to take Hughes. After us it doesnt really match up with team need that much, but you never know what some of the teams at the end of the 1st round will do. On Walter Football he has both Kindle AND Hughes falling to round 2, with Kindle getting picked ahead of Hughes and us taking Hughes.

52CANES
03-08-2010, 04:24 PM
I emailed Walter to ask him about Brandon Graham. Maybe he will reply before the draft lol...

If anyone personally knows him send him and email and ask lol.

NY8123
03-08-2010, 04:44 PM
All I can say is with the addition of Dansby and Clark expected to sign, this takes the pressure off the first round of this draft. There is no reason that Miami couldn't trade down and pick up an extra pick or two and still fill the needs at OLB and NT with the same degree of certainty at the 12th spot.

NT can be addressed in the mid or later first round and OLB is stacked and looks to be loaded even in the 2nd. Miami will be in a great shape if they land Clark this afternoon.

NT,OLB and WR all can be addressed and there is still the possibility of Bryant signing.

Whoever thinks that Bill Parcels and Co. do not know what the **** they are doing when it comes to turning a franchise around they should be dragged into the street and shot.

The Ghost
03-08-2010, 04:55 PM
Ya, he and Terrence Cody. Everytime I see either going in the second round I dream just a little.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 04:59 PM
Well we know that no one before us is likely to take Hughes. After us it doesnt really match up with team need that much, but you never know what some of the teams at the end of the 1st round will do. On Walter Football he has both Kindle AND Hughes falling to round 2, with Kindle getting picked ahead of Hughes and us taking Hughes.

I think both the Pats and Jets would LOVE to have the best pass rusher in the draft. The Ravens and Packers could easily see him as too good to pass up. Some 4-3 team might even see his pass-rush ability too substantial to pass. There's a tiny chance he falls - with the flood of talent at the position - but if he's our guy, I wouldn't risk it.

footsteps falco
03-08-2010, 05:01 PM
how about AJ edds anyone put him up there?

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 05:01 PM
All I can say is with the addition of Dansby and Clark expected to sign, this takes the pressure off the first round of this draft. There is no reason that Miami couldn't trade down and pick up an extra pick or two and still fill the needs at OLB and NT with the same degree of certainty at the 12th spot.

NT can be addressed in the mid or later first round and OLB is stacked and looks to be loaded even in the 2nd. Miami will be in a great shape if they land Clark this afternoon.

NT,OLB and WR all can be addressed and there is still the possibility of Bryant signing.

Whoever thinks that Bill Parcels and Co. do not know what the **** they are doing when it comes to turning a franchise around they should be dragged into the street and shot.

If a team wants to move up for a specific player, and we don't fall too far, I'm all for picking up an extra 2nd.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 05:03 PM
how about AJ edds anyone put him up there?

Think he's more of an ILB in the 3-4. But, at the right spot, I'd check him out.

Clipse
03-08-2010, 05:11 PM
1. Derrick Morgan - Best DE/OLB prospect in the draft. Very good all around player. Whether he can convert to a rush backer is a big question mark though, and considered leaving him off the list altogether because I see him as a 4-3 DE at the next level.

2. Brandon Graham - Total beast. A great pass rusher with several moves, and very good in run defense as well. Size/arm length is a concern. Great work ethic. Great motor. Has Experience as a backer.

3. Everson Griffen - Like Graham, a beast who does it all. Has experience as a rush backer.

4. Jason Pierre-Paul - Possibly the best pass rusher in the draft. Problem is, only 1 year of college experience, so very raw. You also have to question how good he really is with George Selvie on the other side as well. One of the biggest boom or bust players in the draft.

5. Jerry Hughes - Doesn't offer much else other than pass rushing (poor run defender, but is the best/second best pass rusher in the draft imo. Has a great first step and speed off the edge.

6. Sergio Kindle - Very good pass rusher. Not very good vs. the run and has character issues. Has experience at LB

7. Ricky Sapp - Good all around player

8. Jason Worilds - Very good all around player who looks to be better as a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 DE. Possibly one of the best OLB prospects vs. the run.

9. Eric Norwood

10. Austin Scheffield

skipp2myloo13
03-08-2010, 05:43 PM
Morgan really scares me. If The FO decides that Hughes can play SOLB than i think he is the guy because of his many facets-pass rush, coverage, ect. Graham would be a great run stopper as well. I dont think either one will flop, its more preference for system.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 05:43 PM
1. Derrick Morgan - Best DE/OLB prospect in the draft. Very good all around player. Whether he can convert to a rush backer is a big question mark though, and considered leaving him off the list altogether because I see him as a 4-3 DE at the next level.

2. Brandon Graham - Total beast. A great pass rusher with several moves, and very good in run defense as well. Size/arm length is a concern. Great work ethic. Great motor. Has Experience as a backer.

3. Everson Griffen - Like Graham, a beast who does it all. Has experience as a rush backer.

4. Jason Pierre-Paul - Possibly the best pass rusher in the draft. Problem is, only 1 year of college experience, so very raw. You also have to question how good he really is with George Selvie on the other side as well. One of the biggest boom or bust players in the draft.

5. Jerry Hughes - Doesn't offer much else other than pass rushing (poor run defender, but is the best/second best pass rusher in the draft imo. Has a great first step and speed off the edge.

6. Sergio Kindle - Very good pass rusher. Not very good vs. the run and has character issues. Has experience at LB

7. Ricky Sapp - Good all around player

8. Jason Worilds - Very good all around player who looks to be better as a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 DE. Possibly one of the best OLB prospects vs. the run.

9. Eric Norwood

10. Austin Scheffield

Hughes is a much better pass rusher than Pierre-Paul at this point and probably always will be. Rushing the passer is as contingent upon skill as it is physical ability. Hughes has the best pass rush moves in the draft; Pierre-Paul doesn't have much in the way of moves. Graham's a better pass rusher than Pierre-Paul at this point.

Also, Hughes looked great in the coverage drills. And, he's not as good against the run as the players you have ahead of him. He gives up at least 10 lbs to each of them. But, I like what I've seen in that department. He's quick, agile, uses his burst when needed, and his agility to track down the ball. If you're looking for a SSOLB to set the edge, the others are more attractive. But, I think Hughes' dynamic ability as a pass rusher and his potential to move in space more than makes up for him not being an elite run stuffer.

I'm not saying your order is wrong. I like all the prospects you have listed ahead of Hughes, but I have to stick up for my guy a bit :^p

Clipse
03-08-2010, 05:50 PM
Morgan really scares me. If The FO decides that Hughes can play SOLB than i think he is the guy because of his many facets-pass rush, coverage, ect. Graham would be a great run stopper as well. I dont think either one will flop, its more preference for system.
Hughes is too bad in run support to be a SOLB imo. He's strictly a pass rusher, albeit a very good one. I think WOLB would be best for him.

Pat-London
03-08-2010, 05:51 PM
No matter the order, I really do hope that there isnt an early run on OLB's... I see Worlids as a perfect fit for us at SOLB and great value at 43. If however there is an early run, we may not get any and I personally dont see us taking one at 12.

If anything, we trade down a few spots to try and pick up an extra 3rd. Dan Williams is now a strong consideration for round 1 what with Ferguson being a numpty, if we could manage to package that extra 3rd and something else to get an extra second, id then go with Worlids and Spikes. Should we pick up Ryan Clark then our D has take some major strides. All speculation of course.

Clipse
03-08-2010, 05:52 PM
Hughes is a much better pass rusher than Pierre-Paul at this point and probably always will be. Rushing the passer is as contingent upon skill as it is physical ability. Hughes has the best pass rush moves in the draft; Pierre-Paul doesn't have much in the way of moves. Graham's a better pass rusher than Pierre-Paul at this point.

Also, Hughes looked great in the coverage drills. And, he's not as good against the run as the players you have ahead of him. He gives up at least 10 lbs to each of them. But, I like what I've seen in that department. He's quick, agile, uses his burst when needed, and his agility to track down the ball. If you're looking for a SSOLB to set the edge, the others are more attractive. But, I think Hughes' dynamic ability as a pass rusher and his potential to move in space more than makes up for him not being an elite run stuffer.

I'm not saying your order is wrong. I like all the prospects you have listed ahead of Hughes, but I have to stick up for my guy a bit :^p
I love Hughes. I just think we need a SOLB, and that Wake is our guy at WOLB.

Dogbone34
03-08-2010, 05:57 PM
i'm still taking sean weatherspoon. i know some have declared him 4/3 but i'm not buying it. he's a fast smart instinctive linebacker who can cover.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 05:58 PM
I love Hughes. I just think we need a SOLB, and that Wake is our guy at WOLB.

That's fair. I also see Hughes as WOLB. I love Wake, but I think we should draft a SOLB and a WOLB. The draft will tell us how confident we are in Wake's ability to play three downs. Like I said, I love Wake - one of my two or three favorite Dolphins.

Even if we think Wake could well be the answer at WOLB, I think Hughes is a good get. He reminds me of a more agile Wake. And, I don't think you can have too many pass rushers.

Clipse
03-08-2010, 06:00 PM
i'm still taking sean weatherspoon. i know some have declared him 4/3 but i'm not buying it. he's a fast smart instinctive linebacker who can cover.
He's not a 3-4 OLB...

hooshoops
03-08-2010, 06:00 PM
hughes is not a solb...no chance...hughes is also more than just strictly a pass rusher...he's a perfect wolb fit...of course in that role pass rush is paramount

his weakness is run support and poa strength...his strengths are many

Clipse
03-08-2010, 06:02 PM
That's fair. I also see Hughes as WOLB. I love Wake, but I think we should draft a SOLB and a WOLB. The draft will tell us how confident we are in Wake's ability to play three downs. Like I said, I love Wake - one of my two or three favorite Dolphins.

Even if we think Wake could well be the answer at WOLB, I think Hughes is a good get. He reminds me of a more agile Wake. And, I don't think you can have too many pass rushers.
If we could trade down and get Hughes in round 1 and Worilds in round two I'd be ecstatic.

hooshoops
03-08-2010, 06:05 PM
ricky sapp has a ton of upside but he's very raw...needs a lot of work...could develop into something special...needs better awareness though also...i've seen the ball go right by him on many occasions on tape and he has no clue where it is...

but when he finds it he has that quick acceleration and burst to the ball in a straight line similar to sergio kindle...also similar to kindle in that he doesn't display much of a pass rush arsenal at this stage

could mold him into a perennial pro bowler...2nd round value imo

hooshoops
03-08-2010, 06:19 PM
something that always makes me nervous about pass rushers when projecting them as pros is guys who don't have an array of pass rush moves...the one trick ponies...nfl offensive tackles figure guys out who don't have a plus pass rush arsenal of moves...

guys who i think fit that bill in this years potential 3-4 wolb draft class at least at this stage of their development ...kindle and sapp

pass rush is paramount when it comes to wolbs...kindle and sapp also have issues getting off blocks when engaged...in other words tackle stones their first and primarily only move they're just along for the ride going wherever the tackle wants to take them...raw in their hand usage also to combat tackles

not saying they can't develop as pass rushers just a major concern for me...you can't just beat nfl athletes by running around them...

Yessir
03-08-2010, 06:22 PM
If we go OLB, It's gotta be Brandon Graham. Guy is a flat out beast. If not Graham, I'll take Kindle.

I'm personally never an advocate of taking a guy who doesn't have much linebacker experience. Jason Morgan is going to be a pretty player, but he sort of reminds of a Vernon Gholston. Guy is a 4-3 rush end. That's the system he's been productive in. I think it'll take quite some type for him to get "it". We need a guy to make the transistion NOWWWWWWW.

Graham and Kindle fit the bill.

Roman529
03-08-2010, 06:33 PM
Hughes has been dropping down boards I am hoping that he is there in the second for us to grab

Remember how everyone had Rey Malauga of USC as a first round pick last year....most had him going between 10-15, and he dropped to the 2nd round where the Bengals grabbed him. I think Hughes could drop to the 2nd round.

Clipse
03-08-2010, 06:38 PM
Remember how everyone had Rey Malauga of USC as a first round pick last year....most had him going between 10-15, and he dropped to the 2nd round where the Bengals grabbed him. I think Hughes could drop to the 2nd round.
Mauluga fell because he was immature and had an alcohol problem though. Hughes is the best pass rusher in the draft, I very highly doubt he falls out of round 1.

Elliott 1
03-08-2010, 06:53 PM
In four years from now I would wager that Arthur Moats is a more successful pro than any of these highly touted guys.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 07:02 PM
In four years from now I would wager that Arthur Moats is a more successful pro than any of these highly touted guys.

How much would you wager? I'll take you up on that. Don't dislike Moats either.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 07:08 PM
something that always makes me nervous about pass rushers when projecting them as pros is guys who don't have an array of pass rush moves...the one trick ponies...nfl offensive tackles figure guys out who don't have a plus pass rush arsenal of moves...

guys who i think fit that bill in this years potential 3-4 wolb draft class at least at this stage of their development ...kindle and sapp

pass rush is paramount when it comes to wolbs...kindle and sapp also have issues getting off blocks when engaged...in other words tackle stones their first and primarily only move they're just along for the ride going wherever the tackle wants to take them...raw in their hand usage also to combat tackles

not saying they can't develop as pass rushers just a major concern for me...you can't just beat nfl athletes by running around them...

I don't see Kindle falling to the 2nd, but if he does, he has to be one of the players we're targeting. Sapp is a little more of a maybe in the 2nd, but he's as physically talented as they come, and I can see Nolan loving his athletic ability. But, I'll be disappointed if we don't draft two OLB's in the first four rounds.

Clipse
03-08-2010, 07:12 PM
In four years from now I would wager that Arthur Moats is a more successful pro than any of these highly touted guys.
I'll take you up on that as well. I've seen him play in person. I've watched a lot on him. I like him, but I don't see him being being a better pro than most of these highly touted guys.

j-off-her-doll
03-08-2010, 07:12 PM
Sorry, forgot the point I was making. I agree with you in regard to being wearisome about pass rushers with limited arsenals. It's one of the reasons I love Hughes. At this point, I see Sapp and Kindle as players who would apply pressure almost strictly based upon scheme and athleticism. It's why I see them as second round values. They're not going to be primary players right away, but with Nolan's creativity as a DC and their athleticism, he can use them as very effective complimentary pass rushers.

Clipse
03-08-2010, 07:16 PM
Sorry, forgot the point I was making. I agree with you in regard to being wearisome about pass rushers with limited arsenals. It's one of the reasons I love Hughes. At this point, I see Sapp and Kindle as players who would apply pressure almost strictly based upon scheme and athleticism. It's why I see them as second round values. They're not going to be primary players right away, but with Nolan's creativity as a DC and their athleticism, he can use them as very effective complimentary pass rushers.
I agree. When you look at guys like Hughes and Graham, they have several pass rush moves at their disposal. Pass rushers are a lot like post players in basketball. If you don't have many post moves, you're not going to be a good post scorer. If you don't have many pass rush moves, you're not going to be a very good pass rusher. You can't rely on one move.

52CANES
03-08-2010, 07:30 PM
I think if one of the top tier dont fall to us in the 2nd, then we need to get one of the other positions(NT,FS,WR,TE we need and get OLB a couple rounds later.

Actually, I'm starting to think it makes more sense to go BPA in round 2 than in round 1. Someone with a 1st round grade is dropping to us in the 2nd...we should take them unless its a QB.

Pinkboy
03-09-2010, 04:11 AM
I'm all about judging a player for what he does with pads on, not what he has done with pajamas on. With that being said, Brandon Graham is the most impressive guy for my money, and that is exactly who I want with the 12th pick.

I totally agree with you.

He's my guy too.

Aqua and Orange
03-09-2010, 01:42 PM
Graham would be my pick. I do like what I'm seeing from Everson Griffen though...

I honestly think that the team is going to do EVERYTHING in their power to trade down unless someone like Berry falls in their laps, which could muck up all of these mocks.

52CANES
03-09-2010, 01:43 PM
Graham would be my pick. I do like what I'm seeing from Everson Griffen though...

I honestly think that the team is going to do EVERYTHING in their power to trade down unless someone like Berry falls in their laps, which could muck up all of these mocks.

It will muck up everyone's pants too...

dr.jake
03-09-2010, 01:51 PM
OLB.my own preference would be hughes in the 2nd.or norwood in the 3rd .or selvie 4th.