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ChambersWI
03-09-2010, 07:02 PM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d816d2ea9&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

couple things that stick out.

1.Demaryious Thomas as the number 2 WR.
2.Sean Lee the number 2 ILB
3.Earl Thomas still number 1 safety over Berry
4.Tyson Alualu in the top 5 DTs

Mayock IMO is the best in the business so these are interesting rankings.

Ikema
03-09-2010, 08:04 PM
Wow, makes Thomas a little more intresting.

52CANES
03-09-2010, 08:07 PM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d816d2ea9&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

couple things that stick out.

1.Demaryious Thomas as the number 2 WR.
2.Sean Lee the number 2 ILB
3.Earl Thomas still number 1 safety over Berry
4.Tyson Alualu in the top 5 DTs

Mayock IMO is the best in the business so these are interesting rankings.

Too bad Alualu probably not going to be able to be a good NT....at least I don't think so... why not NT on his 3-4 playing college team?

MoctoMom
03-09-2010, 08:14 PM
I like/trust Mayock but when he goes too far out of the box (like ranking Robert Ayers so high last year and with Earl Thomas over Eric Berry this year), then I'm not so sure...
:ponder:

hooshoops
03-09-2010, 08:24 PM
tyson alualu has a luis castillo look to me...an underrated 3-4 de prospect imo...

like him

ChambersWI
03-09-2010, 08:25 PM
I like/trust Mayock but when he goes too far out of the box (like ranking Robert Ayers so high last year and with Earl Thomas over Eric Berry this year), then I'm not so sure...
:ponder:

well even the draft experts here love Earl Thomas, so that's not too farfetched. Both are damn good players. Only thing about Thomas is you have to wonder if his height will hold him back.

Now the Robert Ayers thing is a inexcusable. The guy did absolutely jack his entire career.

ChadHenne
03-09-2010, 08:27 PM
Having JPP the #1 OLB is absolutely insane. I bet he bought into the Aaron Maybin hype last year as well.

Anyway, I'm glad he moved Trent Williams to #3 OT, I've had him as a guy who should go in the top 10 for a while now, glad to see he's finally back in that discussion.

Still absolutely disagree with Earl Thomas over Eric Berry. I still see Berry as the best overall player in this entire draft.

Patrick Robinson is way too soft at CB, I wouldn't rank him in the top 5 CB's personally.

Good to see Mayock is one of the few guys who recognizes Major Wright's ability at the next level.

Other than that, no earth shattering complaints or comments.

ChambersWI
03-09-2010, 08:33 PM
Having JPP the #1 OLB is absolutely insane. I bet he bought into the Aaron Maybin hype last year as well.

Anyway, I'm glad he moved Trent Williams to #3 OT, I've had him as a guy who should go in the top 10 for a while now, glad to see he's finally back in that discussion.

Still absolutely disagree with Earl Thomas over Eric Berry. I still see Berry as the best overall player in this entire draft.

Patrick Robinson is way too soft at CB, I wouldn't rank him in the top 5 CB's personally.

Good to see Mayock is one of the few guys who recognizes Major Wright's ability at the next level.

Other than that, no earth shattering complaints or comments.

1.JPP is the number 1 DE. Mayock has Kindle the number 1 OLB. The only 3-4 OLBs he ranks as OLBs are Kindle and Jerry Hughes. Everybody else is ranked as a 4-3 prospect.

2.Williams has been impressive, but he raised because Davis has been equally unimpressive.

3.Me neither, but to each his own.

4.It's a weak CB class. If Donovan Warren was faster, and if Dominique Franks didn't look so hesitant they'd be up there. But really, only Wilson and McCourty have looked good in the workouts. Kareem Jackson is building steam too. Haden is still the number 1 CB, but his slow 40 has got people re-evaluating him.

5.I like Wright, but I'm more interested in true deep safeties.

hooshoops
03-09-2010, 08:52 PM
i don't see wright as a safety with good range...looks like a in the box guy to me...doesn't flip his hips all that well either...i see issues in coverage

ChambersWI
03-09-2010, 08:53 PM
thus I don't even look at him as an option for us. He'd do good in a place like Philly or Cincy though.

finfan54
03-09-2010, 09:04 PM
I like/trust Mayock but when he goes too far out of the box (like ranking Robert Ayers so high last year and with Earl Thomas over Eric Berry this year), then I'm not so sure...
:ponder:

How bout this one:

"Not sure Jake Long is a Left Tackle. He is a better right tackle".

ChambersWI
03-09-2010, 09:11 PM
How bout this one:

"Not sure Jake Long is a Left Tackle. He is a better right tackle".

that was a lot of people though not just Mayock. Mayock even said that at worst, Jake would be an All-Pro RT for years. Problem is, everybody based the RT argument off Jake Long giving up one sack to Vernon Gholston on a day Gholston had 3 sacks. (Only one was Jake, but people didn't want to focus on that). And because Jake looked a bit awkward going against speed rushers.

Of course, another thing was trying to find a weakness in Jake before the draft since he was so dominant his entire career at both LT and RT, and he showed up and just dominated the combine. I remember people even commenting how at 300+ lbs he had a six-pack. They found one thing to criticize him on and made a mountain out of a mole hill.

The mistake was people comparing Jake to Jumbo Elliot; a really good RT from Michigan that Parcells drafted. Jake is Jake; one of the greatest offensive linemen to ever play at Michigan.

hooshoops
03-09-2010, 09:14 PM
i'll put my hand up...i said worst case scenario jake long is an all pro right tackle...i had a few concerns about his feet and how he'd handle speed rushers off the edge...

but i also thought he'd be a bit more of a mauler than i've seen to date...i think he'll only get better though...cornerstone tackle for us

sphincter
03-09-2010, 11:09 PM
i'll put my hand up...i said worst case scenario jake long is an all pro right tackle...i had a few concerns about his feet and how he'd handle speed rushers off the edge...

but i also thought he'd be a bit more of a mauler than i've seen to date...i think he'll only get better though...cornerstone tackle for usMy thoughts exactly.

#1dolphinsfan
03-09-2010, 11:26 PM
Hopfully other people put thomas above benn that way we have a shot at him in the second round

JCfinfan
03-09-2010, 11:32 PM
Wow, makes Thomas a little more intresting.

I listen to Sirius all the time and Pat Kirwin has been talking about this kid. He states that the buzz from alot of the scouts is that Thomas may be better that Calvin Johnson.

Fin_Frenzy_84
03-09-2010, 11:41 PM
Yeah IMO I hope other teams think this too. If they do then I can see draft going like this no joke...

1. Dez Bryant
2. Jerry Hughes
3. Cam Thomas
4. Nate Allen

Cam and Nate or not in top 5 at all so maybe 4th round and if so I will be super happy...

Fin_Frenzy_84
03-09-2010, 11:45 PM
Well then lets take Thomas!!!

Zounds
03-10-2010, 12:01 AM
I like Thomas but I'm worried about his size in the NFL

Fin_Frenzy_84
03-10-2010, 12:03 AM
What you mean his size lol

JCane
03-10-2010, 12:04 AM
LOL @ Earl Thomas over Eric Berry.

malzacher
03-10-2010, 01:01 AM
I like Thomas but I'm worried about his size in the NFL
What the **** do you mean his size? He is 6'3 223.PFFT..Dumbest ****ing thing I have ever heard.

malzacher
03-10-2010, 01:02 AM
We are talking about Demaryious Bay Bay Thomas..correct?

Zounds
03-11-2010, 12:49 AM
We are talking about Demaryious Bay Bay Thomas..correct?

Earl Thomas. 5'10".

BobDole
03-11-2010, 01:07 AM
i think some people make too big a deal about earl's size to be honest - especially given the fact that he couldn't be any better in coverage - which is exactly the kind of player we need lined up next to bell. if he's got serious issues with bringing ball carriers down that'd be one thing - but who cares if he's only 5'10". bob sanders is all of what - 5'8"? (not making a comparison - just sayin)

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 10:22 AM
The thing that continues to kill me about Mayock's rankings this year: how do you rate Kindle ahead of Hughes? Swear to Baby Jesus, I've been wracking my brain. Hughes is the far superior pass rusher, he's faster, quicker, more agile, and he weighed in 7 lbs heavier.

I've never even heard Mayock feel the need to justify the ranking.

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 10:25 AM
At any rate, Mayock would place Hughes in the 2nd.

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 10:31 AM
I listen to Sirius all the time and Pat Kirwin has been talking about this kid. He states that the buzz from alot of the scouts is that Thomas may be better that Calvin Johnson.


Totally disagree with that......he's closer to former 6-3, 220 pound Georgia Tech wide receiver Damarius Bilbo than he is to Calvin Johnson as a prospect...

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 10:38 AM
The thing that continues to kill me about Mayock's rankings this year: how do you rate Kindle ahead of Hughes? Swear to Baby Jesus, I've been wracking my brain. Hughes is the far superior pass rusher, he's faster, quicker, more agile, and he weighed in 7 lbs heavier.

I've never even heard Mayock feel the need to justify the ranking.


I don't have near the problem with Kindle over Hughes as I do with JPP as his #1 DE....over Derrick Morgan?

Just like last year he had one-year wonder Robert Ayers as a top 3 player in the draft and felt like he was going to be the best defensive player to come out of last year's draft in a few years...

I'd love to hear him justify Pierre-Paul.....he'd be like Dillinger....full of holes when I got through with him...

..and it doesn't stop there with his rankings for me either...

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 11:00 AM
I don't have near the problem with Kindle over Hughes as I do with JPP as his #1 DE....over Derrick Morgan?

Just like last year he had one-year wonder Robert Ayers as a top 3 player in the draft and felt like he was going to be the best defensive player to come out of last year's draft in a few years...

I'd love to hear him justify Pierre-Paul.....he'd be like Dillinger....full of holes when I got through with him...

..and it doesn't stop there with his rankings for me either...

I don't agree with rating Pierre-Paul over Morgan, but I can understand and predict his reasoning. J. Pierre-Paul is like K. Garnett coming out of high school. Huge risk, huge reward . . . that or he's like Kwame Brown . . . but the argument is production vs. potential. It's clear.

I honestly don't know how someone justifies Kindle as the better player than Hughes. I'm not being a smart-***. It makes no sense to me. If you could explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 11:11 AM
i don't see kindle over hughes either...i think the whole only 6 ft 1 vs 6 ft 3 plus with kindle is in play...

cause on tape and in lb drills for me it's not close...hughes

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 11:31 AM
i don't see kindle over hughes either...i think the whole only 6 ft 1 vs 6 ft 3 plus with kindle is in play...

cause on tape and in lb drills for me it's not close...hughes

Maybe those two inches are it. But, I'm really scratching my head.

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 11:36 AM
I don't agree with rating Pierre-Paul over Morgan, but I can understand and predict his reasoning. J. Pierre-Paul is like K. Garnett coming out of high school. Huge risk, huge reward . . . that or he's like Kwame Brown . . . but the argument is production vs. potential. It's clear.

I honestly don't know how someone justifies Kindle as the better player than Hughes. I'm not being a smart-***. It makes no sense to me. If you could explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.


Pierre-Paul isn't even that much of "freak" is what I'm getting at....production, experience wise, it's not even a comparison with Morgan.

So when you move on the combine performances....where is Pierre-Paul superior to Derrick Morgan? I don't see it there either....

The tape? Well....that's even more detrimental to Pierre-Paul when you compare him to Morgan in my opinion...

Obviously I can't speak for Mayock on the Kindle/Hughes issue....and I have no problem with one over the other here to be honest...I like both players...

..but it's probably something to do with the height (as hoops mentioned)...and the fact that Kindle has athletic ability in spades....which is something Mayock has always placed a high priority on in his rankings....at certain positions.

Kindle is the only "conversion" guy out of the top bunch that has linebacker experience in college....he's the most experienced in coverage....and he's played both DE and stand-up linebacker in Will Muschamp's hybrid scheme...

Kindle made a lot of impact on plays that didn't show up on the stat sheet IMO....they showed up on Sam Acho's instead....

As far as a pure pass rusher, Hughes is superior IMO...but all around....Kindle over Hughes isn't something that really stands out to me as ridiculous...

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 11:48 AM
i'm not saying that i like jpp with this but for the stand up lb reps i got to see of his at the combine i thought he changed direction pretty well and looked pretty smooth for a 270 lb man...

it's the tape that i don't like...that and the way his arms swing wildy when he runs...strange to me

between i just got to see the mcclain lb drills at the bama pro day....i thought he looked very good

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 11:49 AM
Pierre-Paul isn't even that much of "freak" is what I'm getting at....production, experience wise, it's not even a comparison with Morgan.

So when you move on the combine performances....where is Pierre-Paul superior to Derrick Morgan? I don't see it there either....

The tape? Well....that's even more detrimental to Pierre-Paul when you compare him to Morgan in my opinion...

Obviously I can't speak for Mayock on the Kindle/Hughes issue....and I have no problem with one over the other here to be honest...I like both players...

..but it's probably something to do with the height (as hoops mentioned)...and the fact that Kindle has athletic ability in spades....which is something Mayock has always placed a high priority on in his rankings....at certain positions.

Kindle is the only "conversion" guy out of the top bunch that has linebacker experience in college....he's the most experienced in coverage....and he's played both DE and stand-up linebacker in Will Muschamp's hybrid scheme...

Kindle made a lot of impact on plays that didn't show up on the stat sheet IMO....they showed up on Sam Acho's instead....

As far as a pure pass rusher, Hughes is superior IMO...but all around....Kindle over Hughes isn't something that really stands out to me as ridiculous...

The thing is: Hughes is the better athlete - faster, quicker, more explosive, more agile, and he looked much better in space than Kindle at the combine. Height and experience playing LB are the only advantages I see Kindle having.

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 11:51 AM
hughes looks much better in space on tape also...better awareness better ability to get off blocks...

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 11:55 AM
hughes looks much better in space on tape also...better awareness better ability to get off blocks...

I couldn't disagree more with that to be honest....

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 11:58 AM
I couldn't disagree more with that to be honest....

that's what it looks like to me...hughes sheds better...kindle gets locked up and doesn't get off...if he doesn't beat you with his athletic ability he doesn't bring a whole lot to the table with hand usage or pure pass rush moves to get off...when he's got a straight line to the ball is when i like him the most...he gets there in a real hurry...

hughes always to me seems to have his head up and eyes on the ball...whether he pursues the ball on a every down basis is another story...

PhinsTD
03-11-2010, 12:02 PM
I've read more than once that teams were more scared, and had to game plan more for Washington off of that defense than Jerry Hughes. Hughes might be a great pass rusher, but the rest of his game must not be up to par.

Hughes sounds an awful lot like Cameron Wake to me. That's not a bad thing, as the athleticism and tools are off the charts, but i'd suspect we're looking for a player who sets the edge better, as well as can cover. Is that Kindle? I'm not saying it is, but when it comes to a 3-4 OLB, there is a lot of projection involved.

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 12:03 PM
that's what it looks like to me...hughes sheds better...kindle gets locked up and doesn't get off...if he doesn't beat you with his athletic ability he doesn't bring a whole lot to the table with hand usage or pure pass rush moves to get off...when he's got a straight line to the ball is when i like him the most...he gets there in a real hurry...

hughes always to me seems to have his head up and eyes on the ball...whether he pursues the ball on a every down basis is another story...


I see it totally different....Kindle is the player that gets off blocks better.....I see Hughes get rode backwards for 10 yards at a time....

Pass rusher - advantage Hughes

All around - advantage Kindle

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 12:09 PM
The thing is: Hughes is the better athlete - faster, quicker, more explosive, more agile, and he looked much better in space than Kindle at the combine. Height and experience playing LB are the only advantages I see Kindle having.



Kindle - 6-2 7/8", 250

Hughes - 6-1 3/4", 255



Kindle - 33 1/4" arms

Hughes - 33" arms



Kindle - 10" hands

Hughes - 9 3/4" hands




Kindle - 4.71 (40 yard dash)

Hughes - 4.69 (40 yard dash)



Kindle - 25 reps of 225

Hughes - 26 reps of 225



Kindle - 9'10" broad jump

Hughes - 9'10" broad jump




I'm not seeing the superior athletic ability....which is why they did all this....

Hughes looked a little smoother in drills....Hughes is a smooth player....

Kindle is wound a little tighter....there's basically nothing on tape or anywhere else that leads me to believe one is a superior football player to the other.....

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 12:09 PM
the only weakness i see in hughes game is as a run defender...gets moved pretty easily...

as far as an olb convert the weaknesses i see in kindle is lack of pass rush lack of hand usage lack of fluid hips and cod...i also don't think that kindle sustains pressure at this stage...

give me the better pass rusher and the guy with good hips all day long

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 12:13 PM
of course for me keep in mind i'm talking 1st round grade hughes vs 2nd round grade kindle...

so it's not like i hate kindle...i just think hughes game translates better and will be the guy who contributes earlier...i think he's nfl ready right now as a pass rusher...

and kindles off the field stuff definitely bothers me...

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 12:16 PM
Kindle - 6-2 7/8", 250

Hughes - 6-1 3/4", 255



Kindle - 33 1/4" arms

Hughes - 33" arms



Kindle - 10" hands

Hughes - 9 3/4" hands




Kindle - 4.71 (40 yard dash)

Hughes - 4.69 (40 yard dash)



Kindle - 25 reps of 225

Hughes - 26 reps of 225



Kindle - 9'10" broad jump

Hughes - 9'10" broad jump




I'm not seeing the superior athletic ability....which is why they did all this....

Hughes looked a little smoother in drills....Hughes is a smooth player....

Kindle is wound a little tighter....there's basically nothing on tape or anywhere else that leads me to believe one is a superior football player to the other.....

Hughes put up better numbers. They weren't much better, but the argument that Kindle is the better athlete - which is what I was addressing - holds no weight. I'm not down on Kindle. I just don't see many if any areas he looks better than Hughes. Going into the combine, I expected Kindle to be a little better in space - withe the experience edge - but that just isn't what happened. Hughes looked like the guy that played standing up for a year. And, if we're comparing them at WOLB - don't think Kindle has enough weight to play SOLB - pass rush ability is a big deal, and the two aren't even close.

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 12:18 PM
of course for me keep in mind i'm talking 1st round grade hughes vs 2nd round grade kindle...

so it's not like i hate kindle...i just think hughes game translates better and will be the guy who contributes earlier...i think he's nfl ready right now as a pass rusher...

and kindles off the field stuff definitely bothers me...

Exactly. I don't think he'll last to the Phins in the 2nd, but if he's there, I'd strongly consider drafting him.

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 12:24 PM
if hughes makes it to #43 i'm taking him...it doesn't matter what we do at pick #12...graham griffen etc...

i want that guy playing lb for my team...period...and i want that pass rush off the edge

no matter what cameron wake is viewed as long term...

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 12:25 PM
that's what it looks like to me...hughes sheds better...kindle gets locked up and doesn't get off...if he doesn't beat you with his athletic ability he doesn't bring a whole lot to the table with hand usage or pure pass rush moves to get off...when he's got a straight line to the ball is when i like him the most...he gets there in a real hurry...

hughes always to me seems to have his head up and eyes on the ball...whether he pursues the ball on a every down basis is another story...


Hughes is the guy that doesn't use his hands well....and it's why he doesn't disengage from blocks as you would like....he's going to be a liability in the run game in the NFL especially until/unless he works this out.....he doesn't use his hands or arms well in pass rush mode either...

Kindle had 12.5 TFL's and 10 sacks as a junior.....playing stand-up OLB....that's instincts and recognition skills right there...

But playing as a DE with his hand on the ground as a senior...he only had 5.5 sacks.....he's not the pure pass rusher than Hughes is with their hand on the ground..

..but he also had a whopping 22 TFL's as a senior playing with his hand on the ground as a DE.....he's doing a lot of things right...

TedSlimmJr
03-11-2010, 12:29 PM
Hughes put up better numbers. They weren't much better, but the argument that Kindle is the better athlete - which is what I was addressing - holds no weight. I'm not down on Kindle. I just don't see many if any areas he looks better than Hughes. Going into the combine, I expected Kindle to be a little better in space - withe the experience edge - but that just isn't what happened. Hughes looked like the guy that played standing up for a year. And, if we're comparing them at WOLB - don't think Kindle has enough weight to play SOLB - pass rush ability is a big deal, and the two aren't even close.

Neither is a superior athlete to the other....Mayock simply sees the plays that Kindle makes with his athletic ability, as opposed to being polished in the pass rush area was my point....I think stuff like that factors into his evaluations just from what I see....I'm guessing though...

"Looking" better in space and "playing" better in space are two different things......we'll get to the bottom of it eventually though...

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 12:33 PM
if hughes makes it to #43 i'm taking him...it doesn't matter what we do at pick #12...graham griffen etc...

i want that guy playing lb for my team...period...and i want that pass rush off the edge

no matter what cameron wake is viewed as long term...

Assuming we get the veteran FS we obviously want, I can see a two-round scenario like this:

1. B. Graham/E. Griffen
2. J. Hughes/S. Kindle/R. Sapp
3. D. Thomas/D. Pitta

. . .

Think it's likely we don't address NT until the 6th. So, we can spend the first couple rounds LOADING up on OLB's, and we can spend the 3rd and 4th on a player like D. Thomas were he to fall or D. Pitta.

But, I do doubt that Hughes or Kindle are there in the 2nd. Sapp isn't a sure thing, but he's a huge talent, and I think he's a risk worth taking in the 2nd.

hooshoops
03-11-2010, 12:43 PM
wes bunting said that he's heard from many teams ricky sapps knee still is not right...as such i can't justify pick #43 on him...

he's in the jason worilds range value wise for me due to injury...pick #74

j-off-her-doll
03-11-2010, 12:49 PM
wes bunting said that he's heard from many teams ricky sapps knee still is not right...as such i can't justify pick #43 on him...

he's in the jason worilds range value wise for me due toi injury...pick #74

Hadn't heard that. I'd have to agree.

But, Sapp is a superstar athlete. And, for someone with a bum knee, he absolutely blew up the combine.

tcdrover
03-11-2010, 03:53 PM
I don't see any way that Kindle makes it to the 2nd round.

He will be drafted on day 1.