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SR 7
03-19-2010, 01:55 PM
Which scenario seems to make more sense in terms of what this FO would do...

1) Bryant
2) Worlids or Hughes (if he fals)

OR:

1) Graham
2) Benn(Tate)

OR:

1)Thomas
2)Worlids

OR:

1) Thomas
2) Benn(Tate)

What I am getting at here is this...is Graham at 12 value where you can't get similar production in round 2 or 3 or is Thomas value you can't get in later rounds...I say this because remember when we could choose between Ryans and the other QBs and they said that they felt Ryan and Henne and Flacco were all on the same level and there wasn't another T that could be had in round 2 that was to Longs level.

So what do you say guys?

skipp2myloo13
03-19-2010, 02:09 PM
1 or 3 and i would be a happy man

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 02:10 PM
What would I prefer? Or what would the front office prefer? Two different questions. And as for the latter, none of us has a straight pipeline into Jeff Ireland's head so I don't think we'd be able to tell you the answer to that question.

My personal preference would be Bryant and Worilds, provided they're available. There's a hefty chance Bryant won't be available at #12 though. Hughes will not be available at #43. He won't come close to that IMO. Bryant and Worilds are somewhat plausible to be available at #12 and #43, I wouldn't go as far as saying likely, but they're my top preference.

From there, I would have to give very, very heavy consideration to Brandon Graham and then Regus Benn. I think that Benn will produce in his rookie season, and so will Graham. And they both have good potential.

SR 7
03-19-2010, 02:14 PM
I am almost certain Graham will produce very well off the bat.

Question is, can Worlids do what Graham can do? If so you take soemoene you can't get in round 2 in round 1 like Thomas for example or Bryant.

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 02:15 PM
I am almost certain Graham will produce very well off the bat.

Question is, can Worlids do what Graham can do? If so you take soemoene you can't get in round 2 in round 1 like Thomas for example or Bryant.

If he could then he would be in consideration for the #12 pick, like Graham.

ColonelJ
03-19-2010, 02:25 PM
I am concerned about Graham playing OLB. He's game is best suited for WOLB because he is a pure rusher, probably the best in the draft. And he can force things inside. But his LB instincts for the position are not there. To be a starter, he would need a very good instinctive WILB behind him, which we don't have. I like Taylor/Crowder combination better than Graham/Crowder. And I think he is the best OLB prospect. Worilds, I see as SOLB in a couple of years. Let me put it to you this way. If Patriots got Graham or Worilds, I would not be concerned. But if the Patriots got Benn or Thomas, I would be concerned.

hooshoops
03-19-2010, 02:32 PM
oh i'm concerned if the patriots get graham or hughes...might as well know that i think they're targets of the pats...

no reason they shouldn't be...

WelcomeBack
03-19-2010, 02:34 PM
Bryant and Worilds would be great pick ups. Graham and Benn as well.

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 02:36 PM
I am concerned about Graham playing OLB. He's game is best suited for WOLB because he is a pure rusher, probably the best in the draft. And he can force things inside. But his LB instincts for the position are not there. To be a starter, he would need a very good instinctive WILB behind him, which we don't have. I like Taylor/Crowder combination better than Graham/Crowder. And I think he is the best OLB prospect. Worilds, I see as SOLB in a couple of years. Let me put it to you this way. If Patriots got Graham or Worilds, I would not be concerned. But if the Patriots got Benn or Thomas, I would be concerned.

When we're talking about linebacker instincts, keep in mind that he was a linebacker all four years in high school, and a ridiculously productive and highly rated one at that. He was moved to the position he moved to by the Michigan staff simply because they thought he could do the most damage there...and they were right, he was ridiculously productive at Michigan.

I will say that I've seen Graham bump and then cover some talented TEs in man, and do really well. And I'm not talking about well for what he is, I'm talking about the pass couldn't be completed because he was on him like white on rice.

Don't get me wrong I do get where you're coming from here. Part of me wants to charge Graham with just getting to the QB and worry about nothing else because he was so good at penetrating at Michigan. But even that might not really be his game. If you really watch him, he's a pretty unpolished pass rusher. He plays that strange over-shifted 3-Technique position at Michigan where he's constantly rushing through the B gap instead of taking an outside rush like you would normally expect of a DE. His outside rush can still be pretty raw as a result. When we're talking about straight up rushing the outside, using your speed to bend the arc, go speed to power, or use an inside counter? Pretty choppy. He does it well sometimes, he looks unrefined other times.

But, one of his big strengths is the fact that he locks on with his hands very well and is very strong. He's also very athletic. I think he is more suited for the strong side right away.

ColonelJ
03-19-2010, 02:36 PM
Of the three guys, Graham at WOLB, Worilds at SOLB, and Hughes at SOLB, I see Worilds as the biggest headache at his natural spot SOLB. I think Graham can be neutralized by a good LT, and Vernon Carey will eat Hughes for breakfast. But Worilds has the strength speed combination that may present problems.

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 02:37 PM
Hughes is the guy that would probably play WOLB.

ColonelJ
03-19-2010, 02:44 PM
Hughes is the guy that would probably play WOLB.

Good point CK. He's a speed rusher, and has great quickness to drop back and run around. I am not sure that he can set the edge at WOLB though.

As far as Graham, I am not disagreeing that Graham can eventually learn to read offenses, and learn when to pull back and cover--to play balanced--to know when to rush and when to cover and how to cover. I just don't think he's a starter next year for that type of duty.

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 02:51 PM
Good point CK. He's a speed rusher, and has great quickness to drop back and run around. I am not sure that he can set the edge at WOLB though.

As far as Graham, I am not disagreeing that Graham can eventually learn to read offenses, and learn when to pull back and cover--to play balanced--to know when to rush and when to cover and how to cover. I just don't think he's a starter next year for that type of duty.

Setting the edge is a lot more difficult on the Tight End's side than it is the Weak Side.

SR 7
03-19-2010, 02:58 PM
If he could then he would be in consideration for the #12 pick, like Graham.

Yea but saying thaat is also saying if Henne could do what Ryan can he would have been the #2 pick or whatever it was. But at the end, he kind of is if not has a higher ceiling.

ColonelJ
03-19-2010, 03:00 PM
Yeah, I just don't see it with Hughes on either side. I love his quick feet, I just don't see it at OLB. He reminds me of Larry English.

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 03:05 PM
Yea but saying thaat is also saying if Henne could do what Ryan can he would have been the #2 pick or whatever it was. But at the end, he kind of is if not has a higher ceiling.

So you're assuming I had Chad Henne rated a top 10 pick in 2008?

I didn't.

And I don't have Jason Worilds in consideration at #12.

SR 7
03-19-2010, 03:07 PM
So you're assuming I had Chad Henne rated a top 10 pick in 2008?

I didn't.

And I don't have Jason Worilds in consideration at #12.

No. I said Ireland felt that Henne can do what Ryan can do so that is why Ryan at #1 wasn't value when you can get the same thing from another guy later in the draft.

Now that doesn't mean he is a #1 pick player (Henne) but means someone in round 2 can do what Ryan at #1 can do...hence the question, can Worilds do what Graham does at 43 instead of at #12, if so, he then becomes the more likely pick and someone like Thomas or Bryant if on board becoems the more obvious pick at #12.

ColonelJ
03-19-2010, 03:14 PM
It's about value. Antonio Coleman and Cameron Sheffield can not do What Brandon Graham does. But for Graham you are giving up a 1st round pick, and for Coleman or Sheffield you are giving a sixth round pick. Is the difference in projected production in the first year and development beyond first year really worth that 1st round pick? I say no.

But when you have Rejus Benn in the second and David Gettis in the seventh, the difference is glaring. Or if you are considering Jahvid Best/Ryan Mathews in the first compared to Javaris James or Lex Hilliard in the seventh. But if Ben Tate or Joe McKnight are available in the third, then you absolutely wait until the third round to pick value.

bdhock
03-19-2010, 03:17 PM
I really like Hughes ,everything you see about him says he will go in the 25-40 range so we probably wont get him anyway. My only problem with someone like him is if he is just a WOLB because of his short comings sitting the edge and coverage. How is he different then Wake, I know you can never have enough pass rushers but do we really want to pick someone at 12 who might end up behind wake or just a pass rusher from the SOLB on third downs. I live in PA so it is hard to watch my Dolphins so maybe you guys can tell me is Wake really that bad in coverage and against the run I know he played some LB at Penn state.

SR 7
03-19-2010, 03:18 PM
It's about value. Antonio Coleman and Cameron Sheffield can not do What Brandon Graham does. But for Graham you are giving up a 1st round pick, and for Coleman or Sheffield you are giving a sixth round pick. Is the difference in projected production in the first year and development beyond first year really worth that 1st round pick? I say no.

But when you have Rejus Benn in the second and David Gettis in the seventh, the difference is glaring. Or if you are considering Jahvid Best/Ryan Mathews in the first compared to Javaris James or Lex Hilliard in the seventh. But if Ben Tate or Joe McKnight are available in the third, then you absolutely wait until the third round to pick value.

thast exactly what I am saying/asking.

I think we will get someone at #12 that we can't get in later rounds. A NT at 12 can do what a NT at 4,5,6,7 can do as evident by the Ratlif and Fergie picks.

I am not sure we can get a guy like Thomas with his instincts, ball skills, and nose for the ball and speed at a later round or a guy like Bryant. The more you look into it the more you see 12 becomes a spot for Thomas and Bryant if there rather than Graham. When they sit and watch game film of lets say Graham and Worilds and see 2 similar players, they wil ask does he justify a pick in round 1 as opposed to round 2...answer is no then he is off the target list.

SR 7
03-19-2010, 03:20 PM
I love Graham but if Worilds at 43 can do what Graham can do at 12 then I'd rather go with Thomas or Bryant then Worilds as opposed to Graham than Benn at 43. Either way, it seems to be a win win situation only diff is that Bryant is the clear cut best WR prospect in a couple years and Benn isn't on that level. There is a huge difference between the two as opposed to Graham and Worilds I believe.

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 03:21 PM
No. I said Ireland felt that Henne can do what Ryan can do so that is why Ryan at #1 wasn't value when you can get the same thing from another guy later in the draft.

Now that doesn't mean he is a #1 pick player (Henne) but means someone in round 2 can do what Ryan at #1 can do...hence the question, can Worilds do what Graham does at 43 instead of at #12, if so, he then becomes the more likely pick and someone like Thomas or Bryant if on board becoems the more obvious pick at #12.

I think it's a bad assumption. I don't think Jeff Ireland had Chad Henne rated as highly as Matt Ryan. Dan Henning did but Dan Henning doesn't run the personnel department.

You're asking me a question that assumes something that is just wrong to me. You're not asking me if Jason Worilds is a good player. You're asking me if he can do the same thing Brandon Graham could. The answer is obviously no. If he could, he'd be considered at #12 overall right with Graham. If you would have asked me in 2008 if I think Chad Henne can do what Matt Ryan can do, I'd have said obviously not or he'd be considered for the #1 overall like Matt Ryan was.

Sorry man I just think it's a bad question.

JT-forpresident
03-19-2010, 03:25 PM
When we're talking about linebacker instincts, keep in mind that he was a linebacker all four years in high school, and a ridiculously productive and highly rated one at that. He was moved to the position he moved to by the Michigan staff simply because they thought he could do the most damage there...and they were right, he was ridiculously productive at Michigan.

I will say that I've seen Graham bump and then cover some talented TEs in man, and do really well. And I'm not talking about well for what he is, I'm talking about the pass couldn't be completed because he was on him like white on rice.

Don't get me wrong I do get where you're coming from here. Part of me wants to charge Graham with just getting to the QB and worry about nothing else because he was so good at penetrating at Michigan. But even that might not really be his game. If you really watch him, he's a pretty unpolished pass rusher. He plays that strange over-shifted 3-Technique position at Michigan where he's constantly rushing through the B gap instead of taking an outside rush like you would normally expect of a DE. His outside rush can still be pretty raw as a result. When we're talking about straight up rushing the outside, using your speed to bend the arc, go speed to power, or use an inside counter? Pretty choppy. He does it well sometimes, he looks unrefined other times.

But, one of his big strengths is the fact that he locks on with his hands very well and is very strong. He's also very athletic. I think he is more suited for the strong side right away.

that's exactly what i see in Brandon Graham ...

and when i take a look at your article on the Nolan defence, when i look at other succesful OLBs in this league, i don't see why Brandon Graham wouldn't be a perfect fit for this defence... I see him as a 3-4 SOLB, he could play DE in our 4-2 nickel defence if needed (injuries, etc.)

3 quick hints tell me he's the pick

1- the make up
2- built strong, plays physical. That's exactly what this regime looks for
3- football résumé: pass rushing ability, experience at PURE linebacker, experience as a DE, etc.


the ONLY guy i see who can cause headaches for jeff ireland on draft day is if dez bryant is available... the second he's taken, i'm penciling graham as the 12th pick

bdhock
03-19-2010, 03:29 PM
I really like J Hughes but everything you read says he will go 25-40 so we probably wont get him anyway. MY only question with some like him isnt he just like C Wake , a WOLB that can really rush the passer but we dont know about sitting edge or coverage.Sorry if this is a dumb question I live in PA and only get to watch a few of my Dolphin games a year, but is C Wake really that bad at sitting the edge and in coverage. I know he played some LB at Penn ST.

SR 7
03-19-2010, 03:30 PM
I think it's a bad assumption. I don't think Jeff Ireland had Chad Henne rated as highly as Matt Ryan. Dan Henning did but Dan Henning doesn't run the personnel department.

You're asking me a question that assumes something that is just wrong to me. You're not asking me if Jason Worilds is a good player. You're asking me if he can do the same thing Brandon Graham could. The answer is obviously no. If he could, he'd be considered at #12 overall right with Graham. If you would have asked me in 2008 if I think Chad Henne can do what Matt Ryan can do, I'd have said obviously not or he'd be considered for the #1 overall like Matt Ryan was.

Sorry man I just think it's a bad question.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. :up:
I am just trying to find a way to slim down the options and see where we might be headed with our picks.

When I watch tape of Graham, I see more of a dominant and explosive play maker as opposed to Worilds. Not saying Worilds doesn't make plays but obviously like you said, not to the point of Graham or else he would be considered at #12 as well. I love Graham but I want Thomas, Spiller, or Bryant as well and I don't know how to make up my mind so figured this might make it easier as well.

SR 7
03-19-2010, 03:32 PM
I really like J Hughes but everything you read says he will go 25-40 so we probably wont get him anyway. MY only question with some like him isnt he just like C Wake , a WOLB that can really rush the passer but we dont know about sitting edge or coverage.Sorry if this is a dumb question I live in PA and only get to watch a few of my Dolphin games a year, but is C Wake really that bad at sitting the edge and in coverage. I know he played some LB at Penn ST.

Hughes to me has WOLB not SOLB written all over him.

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 03:50 PM
that's exactly what i see in Brandon Graham ...

and when i take a look at your article on the Nolan defence, when i look at other succesful OLBs in this league, i don't see why Brandon Graham wouldn't be a perfect fit for this defence... I see him as a 3-4 SOLB, he could play DE in our 4-2 nickel defence if needed (injuries, etc.)

3 quick hints tell me he's the pick

1- the make up
2- built strong, plays physical. That's exactly what this regime looks for
3- football résumé: pass rushing ability, experience at PURE linebacker, experience as a DE, etc.


the ONLY guy i see who can cause headaches for jeff ireland on draft day is if dez bryant is available... the second he's taken, i'm penciling graham as the 12th pick

Pretty much same here. That's the way I've been thinking about this for a while now. Before the Combine I laid down my mock draft at Universal Draft and I had the Dolphins taking Brandon Graham on the assumption that Dez Bryant just won't be there. Too many teams could take him and he's too talented...that combination finds a way of getting a guy off the board more often than not.

If I were to re-do my mock draft I think I would change a few of the particulars, but I think I would also still have Brandon Graham going to the Dolphins at #12.

Graham just seems like a Nolan guy. He has that experience in high school playing linebacker, and he has told teams that he would prefer to move back there and play in space again. Michigan didn't drop him back much but when they did he looked really good, not as good from a pure direction change standpoint as Everson Griffen, but better in coverage than him.

He's always been a star football player, and it seems like football is his life.

bdhock
03-19-2010, 04:07 PM
CK if we take Graham does he play WOLB to take advantage of his pass rush . Then we sign someone like Jeantry as free agent to play the strongside with Wake replacing as a pass rusher. Or I am I way off . Seems like Graham is one of the only top LB who can play either side.

PhinsTD
03-19-2010, 04:24 PM
CK, does it seem completely crazy for the Phins to take JPP? He is an explosive athlete, and he is amazingly quick at rushing the passer, but does he have the instincts and intelligence to play the position is the question. I know you have said that you can't be in Ireland's head to know what he's thinking, but has this regime ever taken a LB'er similar to JPP before?

What are the main differences to him and Ware out of college? I'm firmly against taking JPP, and I wouldn't be happy if they did. However, what I want on draft means zilch, so I'm trying to educate myself on what the Phins will most likely do, moreso than what I would actually do, perhaps in addition to what I would actually do.

The Phins have made stunning draft picks before, on a yearly basis quite frankly, so I'm exploring this from all angles. He seems to be the white elephant in the room. Everyone talks about Graham, Griffen and Morgan, but the explosive athlete of all of them might be there as well, so would the Phins do something like that? What numbers would JPP check off of your checklist for our defense?

DcRy82
03-19-2010, 04:53 PM
I'm sorry if this has already been answered or explained in more words, but I think the main question from the original poster is; What would be the best combination of talent that we could get out of the first 2 rounds?

PhinsTD
03-19-2010, 05:32 PM
I'm sorry if this has already been answered or explained in more words, but I think the main question from the original poster is; What would be the best combination of talent that we could get out of the first 2 rounds?

It was answered. The best possible one is Bryant and Worilds, which isn't likely, due to Bryant being gone.

The more likely combo is Graham and Thomas, or Graham and Benn.

BillParFan
03-19-2010, 05:32 PM
As far as Graham, I am not disagreeing that Graham can eventually learn to read offenses, and learn when to pull back and cover--to play balanced--to know when to rush and when to cover and how to cover. I just don't think he's a starter next year for that type of duty.

well.....:ponder:

The Cowboys DWare sucked his first year+ when he had to drop back and cover. But now.........

ckparrothead
03-19-2010, 05:43 PM
CK, does it seem completely crazy for the Phins to take JPP? He is an explosive athlete, and he is amazingly quick at rushing the passer, but does he have the instincts and intelligence to play the position is the question. I know you have said that you can't be in Ireland's head to know what he's thinking, but has this regime ever taken a LB'er similar to JPP before?

What are the main differences to him and Ware out of college? I'm firmly against taking JPP, and I wouldn't be happy if they did. However, what I want on draft means zilch, so I'm trying to educate myself on what the Phins will most likely do, moreso than what I would actually do, perhaps in addition to what I would actually do.

The Phins have made stunning draft picks before, on a yearly basis quite frankly, so I'm exploring this from all angles. He seems to be the white elephant in the room. Everyone talks about Graham, Griffen and Morgan, but the explosive athlete of all of them might be there as well, so would the Phins do something like that? What numbers would JPP check off of your checklist for our defense?

I would personally be surprised if they took JPP based on what I have heard about his work ethic, and what I know about his intelligence level.

There's no doubt he is a freak athletically and unlike some "freaks" like Carlos Dunlap, you consistently see JPP's freakishness show up on the tape. He just looks like a manchild out there. I've said before he reminds me of either a Simeon Rice, or (and I realize this one's a stretch, but...) a football version of a young Dwight Howard. I say that because JPP just looks kind of awkward and gangly like he hasn't grown into his significant body yet or become fully comfortable with his athletic abilities and what they could do for him on the football field.

Though I would be surprised at Jason Pierre-Paul's selection, I would not be upset by it. At some point we have to recognize that their ability to research things like character, work ethic, intelligence, etc. is just so vastly superior to our own that if they take a guy at #12, and we KNOW how strongly they adhere to taking guys with what they consider "the makeup"...then we just have to defer. I mean, *I* have heard some things that suggest his work ethic is not good, and *I* have heard things that suggest he's not very intelligent. But, what the hell do *I* know about those things? I'm not doing a thorough background check, interviewing everyone that's had contact with the guy since junior high.

DcRy82
03-19-2010, 06:34 PM
It was answered. The best possible one is Bryant and Worilds, which isn't likely, due to Bryant being gone.

The more likely combo is Graham and Thomas, or Graham and Benn.

I'm a huge fan of B. Graham and D. Thomas.
Can anybody tell me what the big knock on Everson Griffen is? I have looked at him a lot and wonder why couldn't he be our pick at 12? By all means, correct me if i'm wrong, but I think he would transition nicely to OLB in the NFL. I know he played in a two-point a little bit at USC.

NoblePhin
03-19-2010, 06:50 PM
do you think there is a chance worlids drops to the 3rd and we take both?