PDA

View Full Version : Universal Does The Sun Sentinel



Boomer
03-23-2010, 12:00 PM
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2010/03/_good_morning_the_pro.html

WelcomeBack
03-23-2010, 12:36 PM
Awesome job Simon, Chris and Richard!

The interview with Conte is great. I took the chance to look at the numbers he's posted at his pro day and how they would have ranked at the combine.

40 Yard Dash - 4.44 / Would have been 4th at the combine. Improved from 4.53 at his first pro day

20 yard shuttle - 4.09 / Would have been 2nd at the combine. Improved from 4.21 at his first pro day

3 Cone drill - 6.44 / Would have been 1st at the combine by a big margin.

He stood on his first pro day broad and vertical jumps of 10'7" (1st at combine) and 40.5" (tied for 2nd).

I don't know what the difference in the field is there, whether it's faster...but those numbers are very impressive either way. Such a good character kid. I want nothing but the best for this guy and would love to have him as a Miami Dolphin.

For some reason when I watch him, I think Brian Westbrook style football.

Aqua and Orange
03-23-2010, 12:37 PM
GREAT post on the WRs, a topic that everyone on this board cares more about than any other since...well...even before the Ginn selection.

The growing trend is seeing Damian Williams as our second rounder in these mocks. Interesting to know that all three of you don't see that as a wise pick.

ckparrothead
03-23-2010, 12:48 PM
I'm not sure Richard would agree that it's not a wise pick at #43. I think Simon and I would both be less than thrilled to say the least.

WelcomeBack
03-23-2010, 12:50 PM
I'm not sure Richard would agree that it's not a wise pick at #43. I think Simon and I would both be less than thrilled to say the least.

I'm a USC fan, but I got to agree. Damian Williams is not a bad player, but I don't think he's what the team needs.

finner
03-23-2010, 01:00 PM
You guys sure put in a HUGE amount of time + effort (= $$$) into your "hobby." You're fortunate to be able to follow your passion like that -- and of course the readers get the benefit...

I'm just really pissed off about the ungodly # of picks the Pats have -- it seems year in and year out. What can we do to screw-up their draft???

:)

ckparrothead
03-23-2010, 01:03 PM
My personal opinion on Damian Williams, and Richard should get every opportunity to pipe up about why he likes him, but I think that he's not near physical enough. He uses his hands and body well to get beyond the bump in space and present himself as an option for the QB. But he doesn't come back to the ball well, doesn't attack the ball in the air. He's passive, he lets the ball come to him and cups it instead of grabbing it, often letting it into his body when it's not necessary. He has no strength or leg drive. He may be a sneaky blocker because he plays through the whistle, but he's not in any way an effective one. He reminds me of a version of Mardy Gilyard that actually tries hard, when it comes to blocking. I don't know that he can get off the jam at the line, he's better with the bump in space. His upper and lower body are not well coordinated for making cuts on the move, you often see him stumble a little bit and get caught up when he has to make cuts at speed. He doesn't have the vertical speed to get open that way against man coverage. He doesn't burst out of his halt on his arrow routes.

What you have is a guy that can find spaces in zone and run through traffic well, can present himself to the QB as a target, passively accept an uncontested ball, and who has eyes in the back of his head when running with the ball in space. Whenever Keith Box talks about WRs being a "dime a dozen" he may misguidedly be attributing that to guys like Dez Bryant, but for me it's very true about Damian Williams. I don't know if you can get a guy to get tougher, more physical, attack the ball more, etc. Maybe you can and he can grow from being what he is now to being so much more...but I tend to doubt it, and you can say that about a lot of guys.

WelcomeBack
03-23-2010, 01:10 PM
My personal opinion on Damian Williams, and Richard should get every opportunity to pipe up about why he likes him, but I think that he's not near physical enough. He uses his hands and body well to get beyond the bump in space and present himself as an option for the QB. But he doesn't come back to the ball well, doesn't attack the ball in the air. He's passive, he lets the ball come to him and cups it instead of grabbing it, often letting it into his body when it's not necessary. He has no strength or leg drive. He may be a sneaky blocker because he plays through the whistle, but he's not in any way an effective one. He reminds me of a version of Mardy Gilyard that actually tries hard, when it comes to blocking. I don't know that he can get off the jam at the line, he's better with the bump in space. His upper and lower body are not well coordinated for making cuts on the move, you often see him stumble a little bit and get caught up when he has to make cuts at speed. He doesn't have the vertical speed to get open that way against man coverage. He doesn't burst out of his halt on his arrow routes.

What you have is a guy that can find spaces in zone and run through traffic well, can present himself to the QB as a target, passively accept an uncontested ball, and who has eyes in the back of his head when running with the ball in space. Whenever Keith Box talks about WRs being a "dime a dozen" he may misguidedly be attributing that to guys like Dez Bryant, but for me it's very true about Damian Williams. I don't know if you can get a guy to get tougher, more physical, attack the ball more, etc. Maybe you can and he can grow from being what he is now to being so much more...but I tend to doubt it, and you can say that about a lot of guys.

I loved Damian Williams working in space, there's no doubt about that. But again, he's not anything Miami doesn't already have. There are already the guys that can work well in space. Miami needs a Dez Bryant type this year, or a Jonathan Baldwin type next year. But no more #2 and #3 receivers. And unfortunately, I think that's what Damian is.

hooshoops
03-23-2010, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure Richard would agree that it's not a wise pick at #43. I think Simon and I would both be less than thrilled to say the least.

so would i...meh

hooshoops
03-23-2010, 01:24 PM
i know slim has damian williams in his top 5 wrs...but not me

doesn't do much for me...

ColonelJ
03-23-2010, 01:29 PM
Great read. Thank you. I feel that if the receiver is first round talent, like Benn, or Thomas, or Tate, then that receiver is not a reach at 12. I agree with Chris (? I think) that we need that #1, the Bielitnikoff, the Moss, the Irvin. We need to draft or get that guy who Henne can count on and will get YACs and present problems for defenses. I feel that Thomas and Benn are that guy. We also need the #1 offensive line in the league. I want to feel that we can win every game on offense no matter how deep the hole is.

In addition to Benn, Thomas, I also like Shipley for #2 to complement Hartline and Bess. I also like Joe McKnight as a playmaking RB.

Finally, in your analysis, if I may suggest, it would be helpful to focus on hard numbers. For example, I feel that Bess is good for 600 yards per season. in our system he may get 50 catches for 12 yards per cathc. I see Hartline as a potential 800-900 yard. The #1 receiver is the guy who goes for #1200 yards in 60-70, maybe 80, catches. So in finding that guy who will get 1200 yards I would look for the elements you guys outlined, and I see those in Benn, Thomas, and to lesser extent Tate, for our system.

Again, thank you for that nice piece.

Mr. Magoo
03-23-2010, 01:36 PM
Good job once again. It was particularly nice to see Freddie Barnes get a mention. I think he would be a great guy to grab in the late rounds and have compete with Camarillo for the 4th receiver spot.

SC_PHIN-FAN
03-23-2010, 01:39 PM
Did we skip week 9? Or did I just miss it?

hooshoops
03-23-2010, 01:40 PM
i like freddie barnes also...but he doesn't have a whole lot of upside imo...#3 #4 wr as a pro to me...maybe a little jason avant there...

i haven't had a chance to read the article yet...i'm sure it's good...

ckparrothead
03-23-2010, 01:41 PM
I personally don't think that focusing on hard numbers is helpful to me in terms of describing how useful certain receivers are. Those numbers are going to be constantly changing according to the offense, the surrounding cast, the QB, etc.

In 2008 with Pennington throwing the ball, Bess and Camarillo both looked like 900 to 1,000 yard receivers. I mean, that's the pace they went. For the time Camarillo was a starter, he projected for nearly 1,000 yards over a 16 game season. For the time that Bess was starter in his place, he projected for nearly 1,000 yards over a 16 game season.

So does that mean they're both actually good WRs? I don't really think so. I think Bess is a slot that can make plays and help you win ball games, but I'd rather have two guys that are more talented sitting in front of him. I think Camarillo is virtually the same.

bdhock
03-23-2010, 01:54 PM
Thank you guys your work is amazing. I am starting to think that unless Benn somehow falls to us in the 2nd we may not draft a WR till rounds 6-7. I know a lot of fans will complain but we have enough ok recieivers we need a good one. My idea of a number 1 WR is someone that the defense will think they need to double coverage therefor making Bess and Hartline even more effective. What do guys make of the report that Bryant was at Pacmans workout. thanks again for your hard work

ColonelJ
03-23-2010, 01:56 PM
Chris, how much production improvement, if any, do you see if Bess is substituted with Tate?

newlownorder
03-23-2010, 02:08 PM
As I see it right now, if you have a "#1 WR" on the team there are two players that could explode in terms of value and presence on the field (Bess and Hartline). If you make the D worry about that "#1 WR" I think Bess and Hartline could see their stats increase exponentially.

jim1
03-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Thank you guys your work is amazing. I am starting to think that unless Benn somehow falls to us in the 2nd we may not draft a WR till rounds 6-7. I know a lot of fans will complain but we have enough ok recieivers we need a good one. My idea of a number 1 WR is someone that the defense will think they need to double coverage therefor making Bess and Hartline even more effective. What do guys make of the report that Bryant was at Pacmans workout. thanks again for your hard work

It kind of goes back to the same problem- if you're not able to trade down or draft Bryant at #12 what do you do? Take Earl Thomas or Spiller? I don't know, but Benn, Tate and DT should be gone by #43. If we get one of them there we'll be lucky.

bdhock
03-23-2010, 02:21 PM
As I see it right now, if you have a "#1 WR" on the team there are two players that could explode in terms of value and presence on the field (Bess and Hartline). If you make the D worry about that "#1 WR" I think Bess and Hartline could see their stats increase exponentially.
I think you have a good point .Bess and Hartline would be so much more effective with a decent number 1 WR. A decent receiving TE would help them to.

bdhock
03-23-2010, 02:35 PM
It kind of goes back to the same problem- if you're not able to trade down or draft Bryant at #12 what do you do? Take Earl Thomas or Spiller? I don't know, but Benn, Tate and DT should be gone by #43. If we get one of them there we'll be lucky.
I think the problem you are talking about could well happen , no bryant at 12 and the Benn Tate and DT going in the 25-40 range leaving us with very few options.

hooshoops
03-23-2010, 03:05 PM
I think the problem you are talking about could well happen , no bryant at 12 and the Benn Tate and DT going in the 25-40 range leaving us with very few options.

it could shake out that way and if it does we just need to focus on a different position and not reach...

should be a good player at a position of need for us on the board at #43...

WelcomeBack
03-23-2010, 03:09 PM
If no Earl Thomas in Rd 1, Morgan Burnett stands out to me at 43

Minnphin
03-23-2010, 03:11 PM
Did we skip week 9? Or did I just miss it?

Yeah did you skip a number or did I miss a week? Can't seem to find week 9 on the site. Enjoy these very much, so I want to make sure I didn't miss one.

Boomer
03-23-2010, 03:33 PM
Did we skip week 9? Or did I just miss it?

I think Dave got the weeks screwed up.

WelcomeBack
03-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Hey Boom...I really hope Dolphins were there at Conte's second pro day. His numbers improved by a large margin.

Minnphin
03-23-2010, 03:43 PM
While you're on the topic of receivers. What's your opinion on Eric Decker? Beyond the "we already have Brian Hartline." What, in your eyes, is he in the NFL? Seems to me that before the foot injury he was discussed as a 2nd round guy.

Boomer
03-23-2010, 03:43 PM
Waiting to see mate.

Boomer
03-23-2010, 03:46 PM
While you're on the topic of receivers. What's your opinion on Eric Decker? Beyond the "we already have Brian Hartline." What, in your eyes, is he in the NFL? Seems to me that before the foot injury he was discussed as a 2nd round guy.

He's a good player, runs a lot of very strong routes, but he's held together with tape. Can he stay healthy?

Chubby
03-23-2010, 04:06 PM
Great Read!

My Definition of what a #1 WR is:

Someone who demands the respect of double teams.
Someone who makes the play even while being double teamed.
Someone who will make the play in crucial times.
Someone who makes every other skill position better, wr's, TE's, RB's & QB.
Chubbs

hooshoops
03-23-2010, 04:07 PM
i don't think eric decker has #1 potential...and i have concerns about will he get open in the pros...

possession and red zone wr imo...with that big body

Minnphin
03-23-2010, 04:22 PM
i don't think eric decker has #1 potential...and i have concerns about will he get open in the pros...

possession and red zone wr imo...with that big body

Thanks to you and Simon for your opinions. I can definitely see where Simon is coming from on the injury front. He's tough and will play hurt, but he's had serious injury issues pretty much every year. Part of this might be due to the fact that he's a two sport athlete and is going pretty much year round. Probably won't change much in the NFL, though.

I think Decker can be an Anquan Boldin at the next level. Like you said, he's big and he's strong. If he could have run, I suspect he would have run in the 4.5 - 4.6 range. As Boomer said, he runs good routes, and he showed the ability in college to go up and get the jump ball. He also got open plenty downfield and put up great numbers with an awful quarterback. Its a legit question whether or not he can do the same in the pros. Very good hands and good athleticism. IMO the big concern is injury and its a legit concern, but if we don't get Dez at 12 and the value isn't there at 43, he could bring some things we very badly need at a low cost (4th-5th round). Now I'm not a great draft analysis mind and I'm a gopher homer, but I just love the kid and my money is on the Patriots stealing him late and him killing us for the next decade.

ROADRUNNER
03-23-2010, 04:36 PM
10/10 boys well done...............

BillParFan
03-23-2010, 05:25 PM
I personally don't think that focusing on hard numbers is helpful to me in terms of describing how useful certain receivers are. Those numbers are going to be constantly changing according to the offense, the surrounding cast, the QB, etc.


:clap:

showstopper
03-23-2010, 11:03 PM
Great job guys, awesome read, can't wait for next week's! Don't know how you guys find the time to make this happen.

BlueFin
03-24-2010, 09:20 PM
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2010/03/_good_morning_the_pro.html

Outstanding work you three, I have been quite busy of late with new ventures, and haven't posted much, but have been blown away by your analysis.

My two cents on what a #1 receiver is in my perception is a guy that 90+ % of the time requires double coverage to prevent a secondary from being embarrassed. A guy that makes big plays even when the opponent anticipates them.

hooshoops
03-24-2010, 09:48 PM
i just got to read this...well done once again...

my definition of a #1 wr is dez bryant...

ckparrothead
03-24-2010, 10:09 PM
Does this strike you as a #1 WR hooshoops?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj_tB1hSVqU

hooshoops
03-25-2010, 04:53 PM
Does this strike you as a #1 WR hooshoops?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj_tB1hSVqU

ha ha...i'm gonna watch this when i get a chance and let you know...

you didn't speed up the tape or anything to make him look even better did you??? lol

ckparrothead
03-25-2010, 05:05 PM
No, Demaryius Thomas' agent told me how to do it but then I forgot so we're stuck with Miles Austin at actual speed.

DOC33
03-25-2010, 06:23 PM
There are middle round guys that have some real potential to be a number 1 maybe not a Larry Fitzgerald number 1 but a number 1 in combo with what we already have similar to M. Colston and the Saints. B.White and M Easley where mentioned in the draft pre-view. White's numbers in the SS, 3-Cn and 10 yd dash are outstanding and he has very good size at 6-2 210 and has enough long speed to get deep running a high 4.4. In addition he is the most pro-ready WR in the draft and would come in as the top choice to be a PR and play special teams. The knock on him is that he is to much like Hartline/ Camarillo but he is 20 heavier than Hartline and much faster than Camarillo. Easly and I would throw Scott Long into the same group are both big WR's with speed and the mentality that the trifecta really like. Both would take a year or two to develop but frankly Benn and Thomas are going to take some time as well. From what I saw in El Paso neither is overly physical but they are not pushovers either and that part of their game can be developed. I will throw one more name out there and that is Joe Webb. There has not been a whole lot of discussion about him either but his numbers are off the charts and he is as big and as physical as D Thomas. He has position flexability which we know the trifecta loves and BP has always liked the QB-WR converts. I am certain he is as raw as they come but he wasnt totally out of place at the SR Bowl either.

Danny
03-25-2010, 09:29 PM
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2010/03/_good_morning_the_pro.html

Great work mate.With you and Chris the offseason is much better, specially at this time of the year.Keep up the good work.

Ozzy rules!!

clashcityrocker
03-26-2010, 04:16 PM
Does this strike you as a #1 WR hooshoops?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj_tB1hSVqU


I would love the Miles Austin pickup. Hell, I wanted us to go get him last offseason. But if we didn't trade for him when he only would have cost us a second (cough, Pat White pick, cough), I'm not so sure that we'd give up a first and third for him now. Just my opinion.

RUDEbyallMEANS
03-28-2010, 11:27 AM
I would love the Miles Austin pickup. Hell, I wanted us to go get him last offseason. But if we didn't trade for him when he only would have cost us a second (cough, Pat White pick, cough), I'm not so sure that we'd give up a first and third for him now. Just my opinion.

It seems as though Parcells is confident in being able to find WR talent later in drafts. Crayton and Austin are examples.... Not only did Parcells draft Austin, he also tried to have Austin added to the trade made with Dallas when Ferguson and Fasano were picked up... Nothing much was made of it then... Austin was #4 on the Cowboys depth chart at that point.

I say the FO should just do their thang... Draft talented football grunts high, and select small school athletes in later rounds.