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TerryTate
11-25-2003, 10:43 PM
vote people....

TerryTate
11-25-2003, 10:53 PM
Okay, this is why I want a change of president in next years election...this is what I have observed while Bush has been president....here are a few things that have pushed me over the edge....

US Troops continue to die in massive numbers in Iraq, and the combat phase supposedly ended many months ago, I was in support for the war initially, but now after watching the country monitor the situation and such, i dont feel it was a good idea...

He Signed a bill to ban partial birth abortions...now, granted I am pro-choice to a certain extent, and what he signed was a good law, (becasue if the baby is that far along in development, by no means should he/she be aborted), HOWEVER, there is no exemption on the bill that says that the Mother can abort if she is in danger healthwise, or the baby as well....so if you are the mother of this child, you are SCREWED......

The Economy still blows, 9-11 came and went 2 years ago, and now the economy should be improving, but its not....Bush had a tax cut go through, but as political analyst/humorist lewis black said, "There was NOTHING to cut!!!" its to the point where they made up figures of money to cut....and it didnt help the economy...

Its to the point that i miss slick president willie, there is no democrat at this point that has risen above the rest to challenge president bush, and i hope one does soon....

PhinPhan1227
11-26-2003, 10:07 AM
Three quick points...

1)Troops ARE dying in Iraq. But anyone who thought that no more casualties would occur after the major battles ended didn't think things through. This isn't Vietnam, and it never will be, but about 25% of the country was solidly behind Saddam, and until we get the other 75% up and running we're going to be facing this crap

2)Last time I checked, there IS a provision for performing the partial birth abortion if the mothers LIFE is at risk. They amended the law before it was passed if I remember correctly. The issue that remained was that people wanted it amended to the "health" of the mother. I somewhat agree, but the problem I have is that I just don't see how a mother is going to be saved by a partial birth abortion rather than just a full delivery. To do the Partial Birth, they have to deliver the fetus up to his shoulders. At that point the worst part is over and it's only one more push for full delivery.

3)The economy just had it's best quarter of growth in 20 years. What else do you want? We were coming off the biggest artificial bubble the country has seen since the 20's. Give it a little time to recover.



Originally posted by ultimateFINFAN
Okay, this is why I want a change of president in next years election...this is what I have observed while Bush has been president....here are a few things that have pushed me over the edge....

US Troops continue to die in massive numbers in Iraq, and the combat phase supposedly ended many months ago, I was in support for the war initially, but now after watching the country monitor the situation and such, i dont feel it was a good idea...

He Signed a bill to ban partial birth abortions...now, granted I am pro-choice to a certain extent, and what he signed was a good law, (becasue if the baby is that far along in development, by no means should he/she be aborted), HOWEVER, there is no exemption on the bill that says that the Mother can abort if she is in danger healthwise, or the baby as well....so if you are the mother of this child, you are SCREWED......

The Economy still blows, 9-11 came and went 2 years ago, and now the economy should be improving, but its not....Bush had a tax cut go through, but as political analyst/humorist lewis black said, "There was NOTHING to cut!!!" its to the point where they made up figures of money to cut....and it didnt help the economy...

Its to the point that i miss slick president willie, there is no democrat at this point that has risen above the rest to challenge president bush, and i hope one does soon....

Mr.Murder
11-30-2003, 05:07 AM
No net new jobs, revenues at all time lows, infrastructure and services being neglected, this is the first ever war to have a tax cut in moder era (post War of 1812) and the only war we had a tax break we had massive trade SURPLUS. This war we have trade AND budget deficit.
Latest casualty rate nearing tens of thousands(including wounded), despite destroyed infrastucutre and accurate hard target ordinance with satellite surveillance we have not even found a TRACE of a SINGLE VERIFIED WMD. From 45 minutes to 45 days to let's give the UN three more months to find it to REGIME CHANGE IS MORE IMPORTANT.And we had so much accurate hard evidence?
Oh and by the way Turks (whom we gave 60 billion to) are ethnically cleansing the Kurds who we armed and promised help to then abandoned in the desert to get gassed or shot. They are dying now with direct supervision of ops in the field or known indirect oversight by an ally of ours.
The economy has not recovered at all, the holidays have surged slight retail sales (the McRecovery meal deal for jobs please) and NO NET NEW JOBS. The GDP now includes DEFENSE SPENDING (86 Bill Afghan quarter, 87 Billion this quarter, and 400 Billion defense budget) minus those three included stats we have nothing for an economy. The DEFICIT INTEREST ALONE OUTGAINS ANY RECOVERY PAST THE INFLATED DEFENSE BUDGET DOLLARS. Funny fact, truckers in Iraq for subcontractors get 170,000 a year TAX FREE and somehow these dollars are counted as American GDP stats and economy numbers! My nephew came back and said CDL's (American and foreign) get 170 thou tax free. The numbers are included in OUR BUDGET and reflected for our GDP.

By the way the Bush league "medicare reform" has no price cielings for medicine and most of the people who need it most (for example a friend who is retired teacher) fall JUST UNDER THE CIELING FOR NO MAX COVERAGE UNDER MEDICARE AND THE MIN. LEVEL FOR THEM IS THE SAME MINUS THEIR PREMIUM, COPAY AND THE MONEY THEY HAVE TO SPEND FOR THE LAST FOUR MONTHS OF THE YEAR. Yeah that is great the market is sooooo up! Med companies and HMOs go through the roof now! By the way you lose the choice of doctors and if the doc you go to says you need no help well second opinions will be an entirely different category!
Dan Quayle the dumbest VP ever has a family whose Pharmacy empire made out like thieves off this "benefit for prescription drugs". More people than ever pay now as opposed to no flat rate costs under this if they have little or no current expense at bottom line, and people who do not get sick now find themselves paying for insurance at some level so medicine and insurance adds more dollars for less output in comparison. Some of the celebrated 95% category were going to be 100% covered previously and you can only choose ONE insuror to cover now for 2 insurance households (great for full time work families,huh?) before medicare kicks in. Basically it saves insurance companies expense and increases medicare covers for households with highest bills and cushions the private dollar for insurance in the meantime. Watch the wonderful Enron-style merging/acquisition helped by this bill also for insurance field especially the wonderful 2 coverage areas previously noted.

As for W, his last major speech mentioned "9-11" and terror more times than ever. He has rode that horse dead and still does. His trip to Russia while visiting Iraq has bombed as well and he now finds himself using another Cuban distraction for smokescreen to save tail on yet another failed foreign policy tour. A soldier at his thanksgiving trip mentioned W's AWOL Nam guard duty days to his face and he just nodded, smiled and said "thanks , you too" while Cspan did a nice tape delay edit and all you could hear was the soldier say "VietBush" to end it and then speak over others until shrub moved away from him.

Bush visited a base which issued a gag order for interviews the day before/after he went in the mainland states as well.Our soldiers opinions do not count in this now? That he even went to foreign soil in a combat zone (technically not so since we are not at war-mission accomplished) shows how bad his ratings are.


The economy recovered from what? The bush recession? Oil prices stayed high, his family is big in oil money foreign and domestic. That certainly helped the bush league's money and Cheney as well, but their outstanding conflict of interest is overlooked in this matter and prices stay high to affect production and delivery costs and force higher retail prices as well.
As stated previously get the GDP budget minus inflated defense dollars and see how bad things really are before you laud this so-called recovery.

t2thejz
12-06-2003, 08:38 PM
"US Troops continue to die in massive numbers in Iraq," I dont know what your ideas of massive are?

PhinPhan1227
12-08-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by t2thejz
"US Troops continue to die in massive numbers in Iraq," I dont know what your ideas of massive are?

Massive in comparison to not having gone into Iraq at all. Minimal in comparison to the cost of having to deal with Iraq in a few more years after they had fully rebuilt.

Mr.Murder
12-10-2003, 04:28 PM
Yeah real scary, they had a loaded camel that was learning to swim and Saddam had a guy with an AK who would snorkel with him and reach Florida some time next century with it.
That NO WMD's were found within days after the downfall DESPITE THE FACT that infrasctucture to such facilties was destroyed shows it was all a lie and bluff. With infrastructure decimated from the most accurate hard target ordinance in history we contained its relocation efforts and STILL our soldiers lives were proven a risk for a fraud. Bush was fraud, he has stolen the highest office, sold off our future via deficit and jobs via UNFAIR TRADE AGREEMENTS.

1)Troops ARE dying in Iraq. But anyone who thought that no more casualties would occur after the major battles ended didn't think things through.

You said it yourself, our leadership did not plan this through. So why defend those actions as valid ?

PhinPhan1227
12-11-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
Yeah real scary, they had a loaded camel that was learning to swim and Saddam had a guy with an AK who would snorkel with him and reach Florida some time next century with it.
That NO WMD's were found within days after the downfall DESPITE THE FACT that infrasctucture to such facilties was destroyed shows it was all a lie and bluff. With infrastructure decimated from the most accurate hard target ordinance in history we contained its relocation efforts and STILL our soldiers lives were proven a risk for a fraud. Bush was fraud, he has stolen the highest office, sold off our future via deficit and jobs via UNFAIR TRADE AGREEMENTS.

1)Troops ARE dying in Iraq. But anyone who thought that no more casualties would occur after the major battles ended didn't think things through.

You said it yourself, our leadership did not plan this through. So why defend those actions as valid ?

Clueless doesn't quite cover it. If the HIGHEST estimates of chemical and biological weapons production were correct, it would still only take 1-2 tanker/semi trucks to move ALL of it out of the country. It took more trucks than that to steal the money out of the Iraqi federal bank. And that doesn't even account for the months of time the Iraqi's had BEFORE the invasion when the UN was still dragging our feet. Facilities were found...but it's hardly surprising that the actual WMD's were not.

Mr.Murder
12-11-2003, 04:29 PM
1)Troops ARE dying in Iraq. But anyone who thought that no more casualties would occur after the major battles ended didn't think things through.

You said it yourself, our leadership did not plan this through. So why defend those actions as valid ?

Those WMD were used in 45 days' time. And nothing found so far indicates any of the program was resumed after the FIRST war with the US. Check back in with some relevance. The truck that was a "mobile lab" was a photo-op fraud and proven so. More faux news please.


The only thing terrorized of late is American jobs across the board. Suppose importing workers so their numbers count for our work force (?WTF?) numbers or counting money we give to foregin mulitnationals (Halliburton) are part of our "recovery". AFL-CIO spokesmen have already pointed out that we have outsourced American jobs for needful defense contracts inculding key things such as bomb component detonators. Bush league policies have made us less safe than ever.
Bermuda supplied so many soldiers to this war, where Hallibruton is headquartered. At least make the company pay taxes on these secured noncompetetive bids so the net result would be a competetive bid price. Do it quick before they file bankruptcy like Ken Lay and still donate to shrubya's cause for campaign finances. Why do you think Cheney's company has such a stock problem right now despite massive cash inflow business and invested? Cooked books of course.

Sins of omission and comission mount up. Bush had 29 pages of information hidden from 9-11 investigation. Bush was at a day care school while 9-11 happened after the FIRST PLANE had already hit the tower. What a photo op chimp he is! Almost smart enough to peel his own bananas.
The chemical ordinance was gift from us, when Cheney was his business subcontractor and handshake covert aid front during the Iran hostage crisis. World war one technology was a threat to our great nation, or a bunch of Kurds we promised help for and then stranded in the desert to die? Face it the backstabs of the everyday American worker and family are so numerous these overlooked/underreported facts are not as relevant anyways OUTSIDE of the FACT OUR BLOOD IS BEING SPILLED THERE STILL. Why are our soldiers there? To escort Halliburton or Brown and Root convoys with their 170,000-a-year-tax-free U.S. dollar truckers.Let the Iraqis fight their subgroups instead of uniting them vs. us which happens more every day.
Get arab nations to help with UN oversight, then anything that could go wrong with this democracy attempt would be addressed as the shortcomings of their own culture instead of the unwise or misappropriated US policy.
And get that one-term clown out! He has republican judges, congress, and cabinet/execs. A regular three ringed circus. Trained PR pigs that can balance bad press (no budgets though).
The key for evolution was the development of an opposable thumb. Opposition has its place in nature and is part what maintains balance. This group has lost budgetary balance and fallen into a deficit with tax payer's backs as a safety net. Nice to see free speech restrictions for commericals from private groups too, nicely ignored during the campaign of Haley Barber former RNC chair in a Southern state of Mississippi with its casino lobby. Repubs took governor and congress seats with a flood of commericals, dems commerical on bush are hitting home so hard the congress is moved to restrict free speech to avoid the spin of accountability. A dissenting justice called the decision "...a sad day for free speech..."

By the way big business still has its untaxable donation status and loopholes. Just shut the people up, the gov't is not of by or for them now. Sell your own soul on where we stand and what matters, you have that right.
Selling out other Americans on every issue we face across the board from jobs, and health care, and quality life, and education, and our security and the understanding of both how and why these things happened is something this American will voice against per issue.

PhinPhan1227
12-12-2003, 10:42 AM
Lol...you're a trip Murder. We'll be in the middle of an economic boom in 2004 and you'll still be complaining that Bush ruined the economy. As for this...

"1)Troops ARE dying in Iraq. But anyone who thought that no more casualties would occur after the major battles ended didn't think things through.

You said it yourself, our leadership did not plan this through. So why defend those actions as valid ?"

As I recall, every time GW or any of his people said anything about Iraq they stated that conflict was still ongoing and that troops were still in jeopardy. Can you produce a single quote which states that the troops are no longer, or WILL no longer be in jeopardy? Or are you still just talking out your butt?

Mr.Murder
12-12-2003, 01:18 PM
"Mission Accomplished"... the war is over... GWB. If our troops are placed in danger why is war officially over? Our guard units drive truck convoys of $ 170,000 halliburton truckers to do what?
And charging us three dollars a gallon for oil to ship it from Kuwait to Iraq is OK? That is the same business group shrubya's brother was with who subcontracted Kuwait drilling offshore lease rights in waters Iraq claimed. Nice to see that he did not forget to send our troops to die for his business interests . Perhaps the money spent to import oil could be used to buy flack jackets for every soldier in the field still? I wrote my congressman about such and my nephew's guard unit gets vests a month later...
WTF they only have 50 vests so each vest is "checked out" like a library book for field deployments. You prepare for the worst in times of war, a worst case scenario would be EVERY soldier needing vests for rescue/relief calls. There is no excuse for unpreparedness in this matter.
Hey you suppose maybe BASHCROFT is keeping dibs on who checks those jackets out?:rolleyes:

1227 you are very articulate, but to ignore deliberate double takes on our soldiers and citizens per day is making this person doubt your priorities. Sad true fact of the matter. I almost said loyalties but that would be divisive. You have put enough thought into this not question that, but to put their agenda over people is something to make one question both why and WTF... from a priorites standpoint.

Panama that you mentioned had a lot to do with Bush as well, his daddy was all over the central/south America politics and subtrefuge. His CIA work is something that still shows tremendous conflicts with matters that perhaps the world court should review that is another thread as well. Since it is after the fact such will not be the case. Custer was going to run for president until Lil' Big Horn... Bush just rode the coattails of victory for his ascent though. Others did the dirty work, he rode Reagan's coattails and a dirty ad compaign to beat a non-choice like Dukakis.
The guy's dad was so uncharismatic that BushJr. needed to rely on Jesse Jackson's operation PUSH to avoid the electoral college by getting enough swing voters to poll for minimum majoirty requirements (barely). Too bad it did not happen it would have prevented the FLorida BS to get his unelectable son in office.

canephin
12-14-2003, 01:46 PM
Get that bum out of office NOW! 7 50.00%

you guys need to stick to talkin about football.

DolphinDevil28
12-14-2003, 03:18 PM
The only president who was better than GW was Ronald Regan.

TerryTate
12-15-2003, 12:15 AM
I dunno, Reagan online tripled the national Debt, i dont even think Dummya has topped that yet...

Phishstix
12-15-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by ultimateFINFAN
I dunno, Reagan online tripled the national Debt, i dont even think Dummya has topped that yet...
did reagan even know he was president?;)

ohall
12-15-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by ultimateFINFAN
I dunno, Reagan online tripled the national Debt, i dont even think Dummya has topped that yet...

No good business or country runs without debt. You have to compare our debate to the national income. When you look into that info, I think you will be surprised.

You are drinking the wrong cool-aid.

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
12-15-2003, 09:36 AM
The government of Saddam was removed from power...that was the mission which was accomplished. Conflict with organized forces was over, that was also the mission accomplished. Dealing with a guerilla conflict still remained, but again, that was something which WAS stressed every time a Bush rep was speaking to the public. I read/saw/heard that repeatedly...how did you miss it?





Originally posted by Mr.Murder
"Mission Accomplished"... the war is over... GWB. If our troops are placed in danger why is war officially over? Our guard units drive truck convoys of $ 170,000 halliburton truckers to do what?
And charging us three dollars a gallon for oil to ship it from Kuwait to Iraq is OK? That is the same business group shrubya's brother was with who subcontracted Kuwait drilling offshore lease rights in waters Iraq claimed. Nice to see that he did not forget to send our troops to die for his business interests . Perhaps the money spent to import oil could be used to buy flack jackets for every soldier in the field still? I wrote my congressman about such and my nephew's guard unit gets vests a month later...
WTF they only have 50 vests so each vest is "checked out" like a library book for field deployments. You prepare for the worst in times of war, a worst case scenario would be EVERY soldier needing vests for rescue/relief calls. There is no excuse for unpreparedness in this matter.
Hey you suppose maybe BASHCROFT is keeping dibs on who checks those jackets out?:rolleyes:

1227 you are very articulate, but to ignore deliberate double takes on our soldiers and citizens per day is making this person doubt your priorities. Sad true fact of the matter. I almost said loyalties but that would be divisive. You have put enough thought into this not question that, but to put their agenda over people is something to make one question both why and WTF... from a priorites standpoint.

Panama that you mentioned had a lot to do with Bush as well, his daddy was all over the central/south America politics and subtrefuge. His CIA work is something that still shows tremendous conflicts with matters that perhaps the world court should review that is another thread as well. Since it is after the fact such will not be the case. Custer was going to run for president until Lil' Big Horn... Bush just rode the coattails of victory for his ascent though. Others did the dirty work, he rode Reagan's coattails and a dirty ad compaign to beat a non-choice like Dukakis.
The guy's dad was so uncharismatic that BushJr. needed to rely on Jesse Jackson's operation PUSH to avoid the electoral college by getting enough swing voters to poll for minimum majoirty requirements (barely). Too bad it did not happen it would have prevented the FLorida BS to get his unelectable son in office.

Mr.Murder
12-15-2003, 05:37 PM
Initially we were led to believe that Iraq would take control of its own country and such was hinted at early in the war buildup stages. Then shrubya's about face occurs. Saddam is out of power, more soldeirs have died. The people fighting now disliked Saddam as well, and even moderates are asking Americans to leave the place.

If Saddam is out why are we staying? From 45 minutes to 45 days to give the UN three more months after the fact to regime change/Saddam removal to what?
If holding free elections is so damned important why is Saudia Arabia not doing so? The 9-11 people were from there. Bush has a ton of ties to their money as well. The Carlysle group's defense profits and lobby had substantial money from Bin Laden's family in it why have their assets not been seized per fakeriot act?
As for supporting our troops, Halliburton had food service violations in 4 facilities at Iraq (including the sight of the turkey day turkey) and has overbilled us in the millions(more found if oversight would be allowed). Bush 's thankgsgiving visit featured troops being turned away from food access and screenings of any troops critical to shrubya(washington post/stars and stripes).

He was better than Clinton? How so? The economy was junk before 9-11 his approval ratings were in the mid 30s(CNN,CBS,NBC,ABC). Clinton had a recession helped by a Republican congress bought up with soft money and PAC dollars, helped with term limits so seniority for steering committees was compromised. Incumbents had to leave and suddenly unknown new faces with tons of ad money took over and have destroyed all we have built collectively since WW2.
Oh you say the dot.com boom was overrated? Clinton introduced oversight to prevent the tax equity fraud for over-evaluating stocks to prevent deflation. Bush's first financial policy was to do away with regulation of that and previous existing standards. The market is way overvalued as a result. Greenspan had to back up interest to the point where capital generation is a feasable risk now, while China gave Neil Bush (the pardoned felon) a lot of money for lobby votes in free trade. Clinton was heading it off after the fact (he should be scrutinized for such) but Bush will let it happen again and it already has(medicare deformed bill and prescription drug benefactors).
You still have answered why the terrorist regime of COlumbia that killed 2,000 union workers (AFL-CIO) is a landmark free trade recipient? Could it be that Bush's business ties there are in cahoots with said country leaders? They will perhaps be one of the next 9-11 crews trained in Jeb's state, trailed by authority and blocked from scrutiny by the same bunch of hanging judge thieves the Bush league has put in place. Third world business policy is inspiring more antiamerica hate than ever . Bush does not mind it will give him new places to invade. One more excuse why he cannot do a decent job, even average for that matter.

By the way Bush himself opposes any attempt by Taiwan for independance from China as well. Way to promote freedom Shrubya. Like Columbia it is a country where the business money matters more than freedom. Another problem in the making.

PhinPhan1227
12-16-2003, 11:19 AM
As I've said before Murder, you're ability to inundate an argument with sheer volume is impressive. Only problem is, your actual arguments have become quite a bit like cotton candy...they take up a ton of space, but there's little of substance. With Iraq, if we leave before they stabilize, than the lives we've spent would have been spent without justification. We need to stabilize the country so that we've got an anchor in the area...not just another problem.

Mr.Murder
12-16-2003, 05:20 PM
So where all thos WMD? Brief , to the point, and not depolyed within 45 minutes, 45 days, three months, or now. Hans Blix has fallen off the map for a reason- if he was brought back into the picture the Sham would be revealed.
Simply stated he lied about why we should hav been there and rushed in to make monetary lobby gain. Shame on you for backing him in such efforts and endangering our soldier's lives. You seem like a guy who is involved, why have you not signed up and gone over if their freedoms matter so much to yourself?

Oh wait republicans always hawk war and shy away from active service. par for the course, you have won this argument hands down, go back to playing golf like shrubya the three months leading to 9-11 when he was warned of the matter in Senate INTEL briefings. A month's fair warning and no action. the first plane struck the towers and shrubya did NOTHING but read a book to a schoolkids that he planned to leave behind. WTF is his resolve for disaster response and security?

It would be a sin of omission to say nothing on this citizen's behalf. If information in volumes of merit are too much for you stick to Bush press events. The budget and our soldier's efforts are sheer volume and to address such in those terms is part of addressing the issues.
Oh wait FOX soundbites are barley balanced, and the brevity of their style merits no disclosure. Bush disclosure failures are nothing new, par for course.
To make this a golf post is so Republican of me, a regular Jerry Ford theme. On this note I will pardon your shortcomings 1227 and leave you with a warning . On approaching this one-termer's final year, with so many credited and worthy challengers, the warning to approaching the final hole can also describe the length of your stay... "FOUR".

Touchee in the fore! Four years and after that he was driven out .

PhinPhan1227
12-17-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
the first plane struck the towers and shrubya did NOTHING but read a book to a schoolkids that he planned to leave behind. WTF is his resolve for disaster response and security?
"FOUR".



Wow...just....wow!! Now GW is at fault for not acting until after the 2nd plane hit? When EVERYONE thought that it was an accident after the 1st plane, he was suppossed to be the only person in America who knew it was a terrorist act? What planet are you from?????

Mr.Murder
12-17-2003, 05:33 PM
It was a DISATER RESPONSE dillweed. And he showed no resolve in the issue. Just another reason he is a one termer.

PhinPhan1227
12-18-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
It was a DISATER RESPONSE dillweed. And he showed no resolve in the issue. Just another reason he is a one termer.

You're sitting in front of a group of school children...and an accident just occured miles away of which there are little or no details as yet. What exactly was he suppossed to do? Run around like a headless chicken? Scare the kids? Call for a press conference so he can tell America that he doesn't know anything more than what CNN is broadcasting? How about maintaining calm? How about keeping a cool demeanor to help alleviate panic? Resolve? What resolve is there to show when there are no details yet? How many Presidents have you seen drop everything when there's a plane crash? Have you ever even seen a White House press conference for a plane crash? Pull your head out of your rump for once and apply just a MODICUM of objectivity.

Mr.Murder
12-18-2003, 11:43 AM
How about REMEMBERING THAT HE WAS WARNED A MONTH PREVIOUS OF POSSIBLE TERROR ATTACK ON THE WTC WITH AIRLINERS SINCE THE BOMBING DID NOT DO THE JOB PREVIOUS.Senate INTEL briefings told him as much and he decides to continue the chimp photo op?

Every time Bush farts you burp your head is far up his ***.

PhinPhan1227
12-18-2003, 02:51 PM
Well gee...a man who recieves dozens of threat briefings each DAY is suppossed to have put that together based on ONE briefing from a month ago, when his security people who are PAID to remember these things did not. Perhaps you could tell us what he SHOULD have done? Do you think he could have ordered the planes shot down? Do you think ANY President would have ordered an American airliner shot down without coroborating evidence? Again, pull your head out and tell us what he SHOULD have done.

Mr.Murder
12-18-2003, 11:30 PM
The plane in Pennsylvania was done so, the networks had people on cell phones speaking including a congressional member's wife. Someone else on phone's last words were "It's ok now there'a plane outside..."
As for the first plane you suppose a warning that threatening would be overlooked and forgotten? Just goes to show two things about the incident : 1- An incompetent man was the leader at said time. 2- That you would overlook such a matter after being so studious in other matter of this event suggests you do not think objectively.

PhinPhan1227
12-19-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
The plane in Pennsylvania was done so, the networks had people on cell phones speaking including a congressional member's wife. Someone else on phone's last words were "It's ok now there'a plane outside..."
As for the first plane you suppose a warning that threatening would be overlooked and forgotten? Just goes to show two things about the incident : 1- An incompetent man was the leader at said time. 2- That you would overlook such a matter after being so studious in other matter of this event suggests you do not think objectively.

My question remains....if the people around him who were paid to manage threats weren't calling it a terrorist act, why should I blame him for not doing so? You have the benefit of hindsight. Sorry...once again, no other President would have done anything differently.

Mr.Murder
12-19-2003, 09:27 PM
Benefit of hindsight? He had the benefit of being warned about it a month previously. it isnt like his other job duties were in the way. He spent quite a while working on his golf games and obviously ignoring his morning briefings.
Running things from Crawford was really showing leadership. In every possible phase. One term work if ever there was.

P4E
12-19-2003, 11:52 PM
Guys... keep up the spirited debate, -- it's what this forum is here for. Please remember not to take personal shots, though. Thanks.

As you were.

Regards,

P4E

PhinPhan1227
12-22-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
Benefit of hindsight? He had the benefit of being warned about it a month previously. it isnt like his other job duties were in the way. He spent quite a while working on his golf games and obviously ignoring his morning briefings.
Running things from Crawford was really showing leadership. In every possible phase. One term work if ever there was.


What the heck...I'm an optimist. Solve this discussion simply. Take us through the morning of 9/11 with Mr Murder as President of the US and tell us what YOU would have done differently. Otherwise, you're REALLY wasting everyone time.

Mr.Murder
12-24-2003, 07:38 AM
September_11:_Minute_by_Minute

by Paul Thompson.
See forums to discuss 9/11 and this timeline
Go here and see it it ties together every major media source and statements of the Bush oval office and note discrepencies in FAA and military policy while also adding reporter observations/sidenotes including quoted statements by security authorites near the president on that day and how their assessments seem to have been overlooked by the chimp.
The guy was clueless. His being a pilot was a farce as his initial reactions reveal, inlight of later Senate Intelligence disclosures Bush and Rice BOTH let key elements go overlooked doubly so in light of previous terror warnings. The head of the present investigating committee is a long time Republican who is calling for resignations by key Bush staff/cabinet members in light of what he has seen aside from the 29 pages of blocked information Bush has hidden and Bashcroft continues to ignore subpoenae for despite court orders saying otherwise.

Bush was wasting all of our time, he was not elected to office and the test of TRUE leaders is how they respond at times like this and he FAILED MISERABLY LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE HE HAS EVER DONE.
His name got him where he is, all of his brothers have scandal over them as well, it seems to me they must have learned this from SOMEONE, and Bill Moyers a noted conservative reporter of years with unquestioned integrity has stated himself that George Sr. is unscrupulous and only "Makes stands in the name of political expediency..."

Get this scourge of values out of office. We were world leaders a short while ago having outlasted Russia's communists and becoming the only superpower. Now countries hate or ridicule us and most allies criticize our policies.
And before you use the "then you are Unamerican like them..." line of FOX news swill note what was said, countries we had working with for inroads of true leadership hate us and they were in a position to be "won over" peacefully to our system. Countries that were ALLIED and supporters have criticised our POLICIES and not our people...
The PEOPLE of America are still loved, the POLICIES of America are NOT and they are DIRECT reflection our current leadership. With each branch being republiclowns right now it removes all doubt of blame.
Now Cheney is still hiding energy task force documents and his appointment of ENRON's Ken Lay to a cushy 75-86,000 a year post for ENERGY policy that even has terror oversight.
And you still have not given a sensible explanation why the American taliban John Walker Lynch was represented by Arthur Andersen attorney James Brosnehan (AA is the ENRON accounting firm).
This stuff all ties together off each of these sordid posts and you have yet to respond in convincing fashion about any of these topics expect for some whiny crybaby Bill screwed up thing. That BS worked for young SHrubya when he went to Barb or George and pointed out a brother but it doesnt cut the cake now.

They let us down every step of the way
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/dayof9111.html


Oh. My. God.

There it is again because this thing should not be forgotten.


I can’t think of one thing that went right on that fateful day save for the efforts of passengers on board the doomed flights.



Read this. It’s the most detailed timeline I’ve seen of the morning of 9/1l. Over the last two years I’ve read those sanitized versions the media put up at their websites; I'm sure many of you have too. They are wholly inadequate

Mr.Murder
12-24-2003, 07:56 AM
Ten thousand wounded is no massive casualtie number to you? Buy me ten thousand American flags made in china from the local Wal mart and tell me that number is not a "massive amount".
I'm thankful they are alive but severe wounds are a death of sorts from both physical and psychological perspective.
'Spose the girl who was shot in each leg and gangraped deserves 50% disability now? She was great photo op collateral damage now she is expenadable and nobody gives her interviews on network news now. Collateral Damage is a bull**** term the kind of stuff said by people whose sons or daughters do not serve.
One death is a loss of immense proportion, and those who have lost theirs in such fashion feel it when it happens to others and recall their loss again. Combat is over... amended half a year after the fact on the white house website to MAJOR combat is over... thos PR types have the advantage of hindsight though.

So when are you deployed 1227 you seem to believe this is the thing to do?

PhinPhan1227
12-24-2003, 10:08 AM
Ten thousand? There have been 2679 Americans wounded in this war. Bad math is one thing but SHEESH!! Here are the month by month stats, although August is inclusive of previous months obviously.

The Wounded: US Military by Month
Month Hostile Non Hostile Total Avg Days
DECEMBER 188 19 207 9.86 21
NOVEMBER 332 12 344 11.47 30
OCTOBER 422 11 433 13.97 31
SEPTEMBER 244 26 270 9 30
AUGUST 1124 301 1425 8.64 165
Total 2310 369 2679 9.57 277

And what you're obviously unaware of is that "wounded" includes everything from a serious wound, to a cut that requires a single stitch. Casualties are a part of war. And yes, one dead soldier is a tragedy. But so are the attrocities perpetrated on the Iraqi people by Saddam. So are the weapons which he was developing, and which he would have developed if left to his own designs. I served in the US Army Infantry...11H, heavy weapons. I was fortunate that I was never deployed into a combat zone. Had I been however, I would have gone and done what was asked of me. And had I been wounded or killed I would have had one request...avenge me, and make my death count for something. If Iraq is made into an island of stability in that Mid-East mess, those deaths/wounds will have meant something. Tell me, what did the deaths on the US Cole mean? What purpose did they serve? What revenge was exacted? THOSE were lives thrown away. THOSE were lives which ended in a meaningless fashion. I was a soldier. And like the vast majority of the US military I asked only that if I was going to be used, I wanted to be used for a purpose. GW has used his troops for a purpose, and they love him for it. When I was in the service, we had nothing but scorn for our Commander in Chief. We were willing to obey him, but we had little or no respect for him. Every serving member of the military that I've spoken to however has nothing but respect for GW. You can decry his use of the military all you want...but the people who matter agree with him.

Mr.Murder
12-24-2003, 04:38 PM
Then sign up and go mr gun-ho... no liberal pascifists are holding ya' back big fella... put your money where your mouth is.

And almost six thousand total wounded, with deliberate stalls for further casualty updates, seems with with most conservative of depolyment projections those numbers will be near where the ten thousand total is. Hope to god such is not the case but for all we know such could be there is such a double speak of media already happening there.The only time Bush is liberal it's with the tenure of soldier's deployments, how ironic since he never even showed up to sign his own discharge papers.
CLinton had two SAC airbases in his state of Arkansas and it was strange that Viet Nam was never election issue despite the military personnel active duty deployments at the time of his tenure who were Nam vets.
State repuke lies enough and people believe them had such been the case he would have never been a candidate in the state, but enough Faux news posts and it becomes a given.

Mr.Murder
12-24-2003, 04:54 PM
Nice reply to the 9-11 timeline and bush's chimplogic ineptness also...

PhinPhan1227
12-29-2003, 09:47 AM
I did sign up, and I did my time. As for the figures, I'm not remotely surprised that you are willing to deny reality when slapped in the face with it. Those are the latest figures, and their taken from a website that's AGAINST the war. 2679....that's the figure as of that date in December. Not 10, not 6...2,679. That's TOTAL US wounded. And there are reporters from every news source on hand to verify the figures...as well as the Red Cross which is allowed unlimited access by law. So when you decide to come back down to reality, and deal with REAL figures, and not your daily trips to have lunch with Tinkerbell in the Magic Kingdom, get back in touch with me.

Mr.Murder
12-29-2003, 07:57 PM
The numbers stated on a newscast at the time I was typing was the post stated...the person stated that total casualty numbers were not being disclosed... so it was their estimate... I am wrong for listening to CNBC.


And you volunteered upon reading this and returned to service as well, just to show that adamant war hawking is something you back in action not just words.... NOT.
Sorry the Non Hostile # I added was in fact the total number wounded, so the total should be less considerably.... thank goodness. Fewer losses than originally counted , the numbers listing was staggered and I followed a total number by oversight.

And the time line for 9-11 you have yet to respond to. Guess those great kid's books take up too much time for photo ops. Must be stories for sixth graders, leave them behind in funding while you are at it! Their uselfulness is expendable now he has bigger fruits to forage... he has been stated as being lucky enough "to hit the trifecta" at post 9-11 fundraising events when discussing his use of social security budget funds for current issues involving security/war/defense spending approriations... how luck we are to have him as a stolen leader.

The people who matter agree, POW/MIA agrees with his policy? Perhaps the the MIA pilot from the first conflict could be accounted for now finally since his whereabouts were not a priotity of the first Bush regime's postwar terms.
He was a slight oversight to the republiclowns. You were there at the time and find such policy to be okay?

Now back to the recruit office Mr. Gung-Ho...or another post of photo-op gleanings!

PhinPhan1227
12-30-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder

And you volunteered upon reading this and returned to service as well, just to show that adamant war hawking is something you back in action not just words.... NOT.
The people who matter agree, POW/MIA agrees with his policy? Perhaps the the MIA pilot from the first conflict could be accounted for now finally since his whereabouts were not a priotity of the first Bush regime's postwar terms.
He was a slight oversight to the republiclowns. You were there at the time and find such policy to be okay?

Now back to the recruit office Mr. Gung-Ho...or another post of photo-op gleanings!

Sorry, but I'm outside the age limit right now. They wouldn't take me. There's also not a lot of need for a heavy anti-armor infantryman in a conflict where the enemy has no armor. Had the call come when I WAS in service however, I would have gone. Unless you've served at ALL however, kindly keep your "why don't you re-up" comments to yourself since you never had the stones to serve at all. As for the MIA pilot, Bush sr did crop the ball there. But then Bill Clinton had EIGHT years to go looking for him and never bothered, so why is GW held to a higher standard? Lastly, as for 9/11, again, hindsight is 20/20. If you honestly think that ANY American President would have ordered any of those planes shot down without blatant evidence you're crazy. And if you think he could have done so on the spur of the moment you have no concept of logistics. Just the time ot would have taken to fully identify exactly WHICH airplanes were a hazard in the most congested airspace in the world, again, you have no clue. Or are you suggesting that he should have just started shooting every aircraft out of the sky?

Mr.Murder
12-30-2003, 11:49 PM
The four planes that were listed as being off course/not responing, and the plane with a the talk/squelch button on that allowed for others to hear the conversation of the hijackers...
If Bush was a pilot why would the fool think a modern jet would make an offcourse mistake like that? He just kept reading kids stories for a photo op. You act like he did somthing great post 9-11, he knew the country needed more revenue to respond to such event, pushed tax cuts, troops deployments and service rollbacks across the board.
Yeah he really brought Americans together by spying on them and having his branch of gov't speak out on dissent in all areas. Bush took the real high road there, what a uniter he is. The only thing he has helped unite is republicans against his policies as well, including the Republican head of the 9-11 investigative committee...

Mr.Murder
12-30-2003, 11:57 PM
Well a relative of mine who served in central america with the 101st advised me not to join... wish I had at the time, the recruit man here promised anything as most do.
Tis too late to sign so now myself, then again I'm no war hawk. Have enough family serving now that I pray for now.Fortunatley most of them are stationed mainland or train current soldier to be. They deserve to have someone voice concern for them. If shrubya was an active service vet himself instead of a guard flunkie I'd perhaps bait criticism for him, but such is not the case.
The same standard you hold others to for their right to voice you do not apply to the commander in chief... how ironic.

PhinPhan1227
12-31-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
Well a relative of mine who served in central america with the 101st advised me not to join... wish I had at the time, the recruit man here promised anything as most do.
Tis too late to sign so now myself, then again I'm no war hawk. Have enough family serving now that I pray for now.Fortunatley most of them are stationed mainland or train current soldier to be. They deserve to have someone voice concern for them. If shrubya was an active service vet himself instead of a guard flunkie I'd perhaps bait criticism for him, but such is not the case.
The same standard you hold others to for their right to voice you do not apply to the commander in chief... how ironic.

Well...the Commander in Chief never suggested that my support for the war was contingent on my RE-upping for service...you did. My suggestion to you follows the thought process of a certain Marine Colonel in a certain movie. If you're going to be the moral voice of our service men and women, I suggest that you walk at least one mile in their boots. Service men and women do not speak with one voice...they speak with a million different voices. And they are more than capable of speaking for themselves. I raised my hand as did every other serviceman and woman, and said that it was ok for someone to shoot at me if my superiors felt that it was warranted. If they feel misused, they will not re-up, and they will allow their opinions to be expressed at the polls. That's the American way. As someone who DID walk in those boots for much more than just one mile...let me express to you one of the biggest concerns that a soldier DOES have. As a soldier I didn't mind being used so long as I was used inteligently. Going into Iraq NOW while it's weak is smart. Waiting until it rebuilt it's strength and developed USABLE stockpiles of WMD's would have been stupid. War-Hawks sometimes needlessly cost lives. But the worst War-Hawks in history have never cost 1/10th the lives of the worst Doves. Imagine how many lives might have been saved had Hitler been confronted after he took Austria, rather than waiting for him to annex Europe and North Africa. Saddam probably never would have reached the level of a Hitler...but he was certainly someone who had already spent more than a million lives, and he was certainly someone who would have spent many more than that if given the chance. As a soldier, I'd expect my superiors to send me in when my enemy was at his weakest, and that's what GW did.

Mr.Murder
12-31-2003, 11:51 PM
And Bush walked how far in their Boots? How many family members did you lose during vietnam? Have serve there?
What was Bush doing then? Serving in guard unit that included other politicians kids and a few Dallas Cowboys players? WOW! He is so much qualified to make the decision to go to to war!
The same logic you apply to anyone who excercises first amendment speech does not apply to the commander in chief? he is "ABOVE STANDARDS!"
The only ground for going to war in the constitution are those who are threat to US soil and the citizens on it, or those who threaten the constitution itself. So far the only person under Bush's watch to fit this category aside from dead hijackers( some of those names were aliases and are in fact alive) is JOHN ASHCROFT!
Bin Laden has ties to CHeney and Bush, has been stated previously, his brothers were in DC on 9-11 meeting papa Bush... why is Carlysle not having its assets seized and why were other business ties to Al Queida given time to move funds/personnell who may should have AT LEAST been questioned?

OK then, if Saddam was a threat with third world capability and as many diverse resistance movements as loyalists why is the country still fighting our soldiers? Saddam is out, the REPUBLICAN GUARD that Bush league helped arm is calling its own shots with other leadership that is not loyal to Hussein, many of whom never were.

It seems that for a soldier to placed in harm's way with objectives not clearly defined is a fine thing to ask. Ask the soldiers who they fight now....shrugged shoulders, stammers, or requests to have superiors answer is the number one reply. They are sending ours to be targets in the meantime. There is now no political structure to make peace with so our people take the brunt of fire. We have Saddam, bring our home, let the UN supply the strucure and move on from there.
Oh wait the US and Israel always vote against the UN , they are not problem solvers accoring to neocons, our soldiers will stay there and be the object of violence.
And the marine colonel in a movie becomes your political science thesis for what citizens should feel obligated to say? And indians were always so bad in those cowboys movies, no wonder their women deserved to be raped and people deserved slaughter. Enough of the Reaganesque comparisons.

First in class OK university 67, US Navy, casualty... mekong river patron US navy, walking wounded, psych flashback casualty... 101st central america/panama,flight deck coord. Nimitz2-Libya0 mediterranean theatre, southeast europe noncom90s, white horse hill Korea, corps of engineers vietnam, Panama ealry 1900's, Shiloh.
You are correct I have no room to talk, the blood of mine who have served secured that right for me. If you don't like so take it up with any of them, they have laid their *** on the line for me damned well enough and I thank god for their contributions.

When their contributions helped make America great to say nothing when others detract from this greatness would be a sin of omission. I have blood in Iraq now, and as much as he hates being there he knows he has to watch for those he is stationed with and we pray he'll be home healthy soon.

And he does not feel noble for going there, he knows we are presently unwanted there by the majority. If there was an election there today whoever ran on the "AMERICA LEAVE" platform would win hands down... but to put him in the situation where they face hostile fire and have to make tough judgement decisions is something BUSH is not qualified to do.
Bush did not even show up to sign his discharge guard papers, as damned close to desertion grounds as one can get. Maybe you want to take the piss test for W since he did not?
Saddam was a never a threat to our soil/constitution... Ashcroft can only say half as much. He has already stepped down from investigation of the leak of a CIA operative's name... in the line of tracing atomic grade materials. He is just waiting until Bush last lame duck month for the pardon for doing so. A true patriot.

PhinPhan1227
01-05-2004, 11:41 AM
The majority of our US Presidents have had little or no combat military experience, and I never said that military experience was a requirement for expressing your opinion on the war. What I did say was that YOUR attacking ME for not RE-upping was insulting to everyone who HAS served their country. Comment all you like on the war, but before you call ME a war monger, serve a day in the freaking military. Comment all you like on whatever war we're fighting or should be fighting. But again, before you claim to be "looking out for the interests of our service men and serivce women", volunteer to help cover thier butts. Speak for yourself, and for your own opinions. If you're a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief, feel free to expres your opinions as a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. But don't represent yourself as standing shoulder to shoulder with our servicemen when you have never taken the oath.

Any individual who takes the Presidential oath of office must be willing to deploy our troops as the need requires, regardless of their won service record. That doesn't mean that enemy troops are about to land on our beach, that only means that our interests are threatened. The last war we fought in which our actual borders were threatened was the War of 1812. Every war since then has been strictly about our world interests, not protecting our borders. While you're signing up for ECON 101, maybe you should squeeze in AMER HIST 101 as well...sheesh.

Mr.Murder
01-05-2004, 10:12 PM
Veterans have even returned war medals to the current regime here perhaps what they have to say is more important in these matter.
Delpeted uranium ordinance does wonders for buirth defects, and is being ignored. Desert storm syndrome was hushed up as wwll. We should take it that all of the soldiers are happy since you are having formerly served.
And Shrubya failed to show up and sign his discharge papers. As for needing to go there, no WMD deployed within A)45 minutes to B)45days to C) "give us three more months" to D) "regime change" has made us so much safer.

Hawaii was our 'territory" at said time of WW2, and as such was part of the constitutionally required grounds for war originally stated.

Try American History class before you throw college class curriculum/terminology at people.

PhinPhan1227
01-06-2004, 09:40 AM
A protectorate is not the same thing as an invasion. Further, are you suggesting that our involvment in WWI was an illegal act by our President? What about Bosnia? Should Bill Clinton be brought up on a war crimes tribunal for our intervention there?

Mr.Murder
01-06-2004, 10:37 PM
The Bosnia effort had nato's backing in full. The arab league did not fully condone this latest action, nor did every nato state. In fact the only votes we got to do so recieved massive monetary aid from us as a result, such as Turkey.

Mr.Murder
01-07-2004, 06:04 PM
www.veteransforcommonsense.org :troops:
As much or more service than you, THEY are against the present deployment 1227. Tell them they have no right, tell me I have no right.

PhinPhan1227
01-08-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
The Bosnia effort had nato's backing in full. The arab league did not fully condone this latest action, nor did every nato state. In fact the only votes we got to do so recieved massive monetary aid from us as a result, such as Turkey.

Nice double speak Orwell. You didn't mention NATO in your comment about the Constitution(and neither does the Constitution). You SAID "The only ground for going to war in the constitution are those who are threat to US soil and the citizens on it, or those who threaten the constitution itself." Bosnia posed NO threat to the US, its Constitution, OR it's people. In point of fact it posed much LESS of a threat than Iraq since the US doesn't even have any economic interests there. So explain yourself Orwell...why isn't Bill Clinton deserving of a war crimes trial?

PhinPhan1227
01-08-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
www.veteransforcommonsense.org :troops:
As much or more service than you, THEY are against the present deployment 1227. Tell them they have no right, tell me I have no right.

Keep lying Murder. Keep lying. I never said you didn't have the right to comment. In point of fact, I swore to defend that right when I served. I DID say that you had no right to tell ME that I had no right to my opinion unless I re-upped. I also pointed out that as someone who had NEVER served, you don't have the right to tell ANYONE that they should RE-up, when they already HAVE served their country. Jesus man, at least try to keep REMOTELY factual. As for the web-site, I ALSO already stated that those who serve each have their own opinions. But the fact is, the vast majority of those who serve and HAVE served strongly support GW.

Mr.Murder
01-09-2004, 08:02 PM
You want to see us there, you are not there, I get it now... Bush was the same way during Nam.

Mr.Murder
01-09-2004, 08:38 PM
War crimes for stopping a million from being ethnically cleansed? Great idea! Seems that Europe was blocked from pipeline interests in this matter as well, so the oil league kept its market advantage also... Clinton had more backing from private dollars than anyone was led to believe in this, many of those have larger ties to Shrubya. But it perhaps saved southeast europe from years of civil war, and it had support of NATO which were prime factors. The initial ethnic suppression is what was not fully addressed and probably never will, justice in such matter will always be less than the crimes committed by wrongdoers on each side.

NATO was a reason we initially went the Nam, to secure France's standing in it, which never transpired... another story as well, and no reason to escalate was really justified, had Kennedy not been killed we would have gotten out of there...he already signed a plan to get out early that LBJ undid as one of his first acts in office.

How many Iraqis did we arm to kill, have attack other civilians to cause unrest, and then cause retaliation upon other inncoents while James Baker was at the State Dept' before he retired to chair Kerr-McGhee oil interests in Morrocco?
A lot of those quells were put down with our help as well with Rumsfeld's chemical weapons and GPS targeting assistance...
And before you say things are better now, the 90s war destroyed infrastructure, sanctions turned thier rebuild efforts into third world disparity, and the current "ARMY' of Iraq is private funding groups along the lines of halliburton and Kellogg Brown and Root. Those "soldiers" are committing war crimes that lead to more anti-US violence and discredit the American soldiers by guilt of association which is unfair but easily concluded to by the average person who is under fire almost daily there from both sides.


Bush is still enforcing some terrific Saddam measures and laws as well, especially its anti-labor unions stance... no big shock to those who know the anti-labor bush league motif.

PhinPhan1227
01-10-2004, 02:59 AM
Murder...are you actually Howard Dean? You both have a common trait. He ignore his prior comments as well whenever they are shown to be erroneous. You said that there was NO justification for war unless our borders were threatened. Clinton fought a war which did not threaten our borders. Make up your mind. Were you wrong, or was Clinton? You set the rules...now live with them.

PhinPhan1227
01-10-2004, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
You want to see us there, you are not there, I get it now... Bush was the same way during Nam.


Again...it would take a hard right wing Liberal like yourself to declare in one sentence that YOUR rights to expression are absolute, regardless of your lack of service...but in order to express MY opinion I have to RE-up for the military. Damn man...you're a walking stereotype.

Mr.Murder
01-10-2004, 03:34 AM
Well if your intial statement that the only people who can say either way would be in service would lend to the logical conclusion of 1- Bush did not serve, and 2- you do not serve currently so the standard you hold would not hold up to self first...

Jefferson said dissent was a key to sound policy, especially at times of war.Everyone should examine the how and why for warfare... but your standard remark was to me, I simply applied the same merits to yourself and the chimp for active service, did not mean to ruffle your feathers... smooth the panties back out and give us a great cheer for war. Bush was great at that, just follow his cheerlead form!
You asked me the difference this war and kosovo and I gave it, one war staibilized the region and gave Islamic extremists less ammo to criticise us, the other DESTABILIZED and inspired terror against us... I would have rather we went to neither, but the minimal damage for the Europe deployment and fiscal effectiveness of such moves in comparison once again show the current conflict was ill planned and unwise.

PhinPhan1227
01-10-2004, 09:47 AM
My first quote on the matter....

"You can decry his use of the military all you want...but the people who matter agree with him."


Your first quote on the matter...

"Then sign up and go mr gun-ho... no liberal pascifists are holding ya' back big fella... put your money where your mouth is."

My comment said NOTHING about limiting your right to express yourself. It meresly stated that the soldiers opinions of THEIR fate count for more than yours...OR mine for that matter. YOUR comment however stated that in order for me to express MY opinion, I should have to sign up. And that's indicative of a clueless, pedantic, and candy-assed method of thinking. You EPITOMIZE the mindset of those hollywood jacka$$es who think that THEIR rights of self expression preclude everyone ELSES rights to ignore them. As for Kosovo...I did NOT ask the difference, because by YOUR definition there WAS no difference. You were very clear...the ONLY legal use of force by the PResident is in defense of our borders or the Constitution. Iraq at least has an economic impact on our country and therefore CAN be said to impact our borders. Kosovo didn't even have a hint of that impact, and yet Clinton fought it anyway. So by YOUR definition, he committed a crime. Again, WHY do you find it so impossible to stick to a single statement once it's challenged? Or do you need to revue Bush's voting record again?

Mr.Murder
01-13-2004, 10:54 PM
Iraq had no economic impact on America ... SANCTIONS prevented their impact... it did not stop Condie Rice from buying their oil third party for Chevron, so perhaps her business efforts should be investigated in this matter.
O'neil has shown documents proving Bush wanted Iraq from day one despite it being proven Saddam and Bin laden were enemies by the CIA.
The Constituion limits wars to those which threaten our soil, this had none. Your Iraq misrepresentation of impact was also proven wrong in the first paragraph.
The soldiers I know of there want to come home, even if their jobs were sold away in free trade. Their opinions count more than yours to me, thanks anyways. Many vets have returned their medals in response to the current leadership we have right now. Their opinion counts more than mine in this matter.
They happen to agree with me, and disagree with you as well.
Which hollywood jackass? Michael Moore? You know he won an election after registering for the draft while he was in college (take note Ashcroft) and was the youngest person to win elected office in his state's history. You are correct he is a 'know it all 'with no idea of the workings of government.
Seems like a correct reply is not what merits a response for you... fine, stick to reading school kids stories while planes hit towers you were warned about. Very Bush-like of ya. Stick to kid's stories and you might win an argument with yourself.
Final note- Kosovo was a challenge to sovereignty, Iraq was not... theirs was internal strife not external which is the standard for international response to a conflict.

PhinPhan1227
01-15-2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
The Constituion limits wars to those which threaten our soil, this had none. Final note- Kosovo was a challenge to sovereignty, Iraq was not... theirs was internal strife not external which is the standard for international response to a conflict.

Once again....Demonstrate how Kosovo threatened our borders, or admit that Bush didn't do anything Clinton didn't do. You can't have it both ways. Then again, I'm dealing with somone who thinks that pay scales are a function of arbitrary values, so why does this non-response surprise me? As for Kosovo, that WAS internal strife. Refugees may have moved across borders, but the actual fighting was all internal. Iraq on the other hand was the continuation and conclusion of a war of aggression against Kuwait. Saddam was allowed to stay in power in return for certain concessions on his part. He failed to complete those concessions, and recent actions are the logical conclusion. You want International legal grounds? THOSE are International legal grounds. Those are the same grounds we used to justify the European theater of WWII. Bottom line however, is that according to your definition of our legal justification for war, Clinton was JUST as wrong for Kosovo, as GW would be for Iraq. Either admit that or face the fact that you look like an idiot. As for O'Niell, it's hardly surprising that you would ignore his explanation the next day. Actually, it fits perfectly with YOUR m.o..

"Suskind's book, "The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House and the Education of Paul O'Neill," was published Tuesday. It has drawn attention in large part because O'Neill said Iraq was on the president's agenda from his first days in office.

But O'Neill said his comments have been distorted to suggest last year's invasion of Iraq was being planned from the beginning of the administration.

"I was surprised, as I've said in the book, that Iraq was given such a high priority," he told NBC. "But I was not surprised that we were doing a continuation of planning that had been going on and looking at contingency options during the Clinton administration."

Again...nothing Clinton wasn't doing as well.

Mr.Murder
01-16-2004, 08:40 PM
So it is still Clinton's fault that Bush made false presentations for the war. The fact of the matter that Iraq was not challenging anyone's sovereignty,and was in full compliance of the heaviest inspections in UN history are the only issues that hold merit.
Bosnia-Kosovo was outside interference of sovereign land. Simple enough.
Blix stated Iraq was compliant to the point of using helicopters to inspect since roadways, bridges and infrastructure were so damaged.
O'Neil stood by his statement that intent was obvious day one and complicit after 9-11. And others aides have since confrimed these facts. No spin you try will change that fact. Go back to faux news 1227.

Why borders were brought up initially- you said the country represented a threat to America. [i]Reply showed that Iraq was not capable of reaching us with WMD. Border threat was constitutional grounds for war and congress' sanction of such as a means to avoid dictatorship situation we now have here and there.

Then you brough Kosovo as a comparison which had the following difference - NATO support, international support, and challenged sovereignty which is the initial grounds for outside intervention in any war effort where diplomacy has failed.


This war was not a threat to our soil- FACT.
The intervention was not a result of sovereign encroachment-FACT.
The standards for American intervention on our behalf were proven lies. The standard for world intervention as part of the UN were disregarded procedurally when Saddm burned Cheney's oil well subcontract equpiment made us attack 2 days early despite compliance, and we had less than a majority of countries supporting such action.
So there you have it, we went to war for special interests and risk our soldier's lives as a result. Your final defense is that CLinton's action was wrong also- CLinton's action was protested by many Liberals but the media was too busy frying those big ol' blo-job fish to pay attention. The world was not against such action as it had NATO's blessing and further allowed Cheney to prevent a EURO pipeline from the caspain to hedge his and other's oil interests. The side affect was that SE Europe was stabilized after shaky post communist start. Cheney had his hand in said action via halliburton whome he chaired being the number one contractor there.
Meanhwile the Mideast is now less secure by said action. Iran War has spilled over to Iran insurgent problems, Assyria has war refugees, and Turkey is fighting against/cleansing ethnic Kurds who also oppose SHiites as iraq's majoirty. What a mess. No structure whatsoever, an intermn gov't seen as outsider puppets of 'Ameri-oil' interests, continued sanction for months after regimes to secure unrest and antiprov sentiment.

PhinPhan1227
01-17-2004, 11:42 PM
WHERE did I say that Iraq presented a direct threat to America? YOU said that NO war was justified unless it threatened our borders. I then asked you to show how KOSOVO presented that threat. You've evaded that point over and over. Once again however, facts really aren't your forte. LEts go over a few you've ignored at best, and lied about at worst.

1)There was and IS evidence of WMD production. The ONLY evidence that was disputed was the nuke evidence. Bio and Chem evidence was NEVER disputed. So when you say that the evidence on WMD's was false, you are blatantly lying.

2)Iraq was NOT in full compliance. The rules of the agreemement state that IRaq must PROVE that they got rid of all WMD's, and failed to pursue any more. Having to threaten them at gun point to get every ounce of cooperation is NOT proving their compliance.

3)Iraq invaded Kuwait, launched missiles at Israel, and slaughtered it's civilians by the hundreds of thousands. Hussein CONSISTANTLY asserted that if given the chance he would do so all over again. But then it's clear thinking like yours that allowed Poland, the Chech's, and the rest of Europe to be rolled over.

Section126
01-19-2004, 10:09 PM
psssssst......The UN didn't authorize the Bosnia/kosovo expedition either....................

I like politics but I would never participate in one of these debates...

it goes like this:

The Bush supporter states a fact, then the Liberal/democrat/bush hater/ etc. resorts immediately to calling the president a chimp, a nazi, shrubya, dumbya, etc........

Kind of kills the fun of politics......The hatred that some feel for the president is irrational and scary......Some boards on the internet actually openly talk about assasination.......It is sick.......

I have voted 4 times for Bob Graham (D) here in florida, I have voted for alot of liberals/democrats for alot of local offices (mayor, councilmen/commisioner).

This hatred I see from the left has driven me further away from center and making me a straight ticket Pub......don't think I am the only one.

Mr.Murder
01-21-2004, 01:58 AM
Irrational- oh an AWOL idiot runs our country , wrecks the economy and the structure of gov't itself. I am so happy! While that chimp was AWOL and not even showing up for military evaluations my family was fighting in Nam. They didnt make tons off of the war either(LIKE THE WAR LOBBY). Some gave all. Bush gave nothing.
He didnt get a majority, was out-voted by a half million, and the top donor to the Bush/Cheney recall fund for Florida was Ken lay of ENRON who is on Cheney's energy task force right now. You like power bills going up 250% ?

Section126
01-21-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Murder
Irrational- oh an AWOL idiot runs our country , wrecks the economy and the structure of gov't itself. I am so happy! While that chimp was AWOL and not even showing up for military evaluations my family was fighting in Nam. They didnt make tons off of the war either(LIKE THE WAR LOBBY). Some gave all. Bush gave nothing.
He didnt get a majority, was out-voted by a half million, and the top donor to the Bush/Cheney recall fund for Florida was Ken lay of ENRON who is on Cheney's energy task force right now. You like power bills going up 250% ?


Blah, Blah, Blah

:rolleyes:

PhinPhan1227
01-21-2004, 11:33 AM
Lol...standard stuff. I'm not completely happy with GW...in fact I'm very much opposed to many of his policies. But one thing you have to say for him...at least he inspires a reaction. Bill Clinton was so low key that you couldn't love OR hate him. He just went with the prevailing winds. I may dislike many of GW's policies and opinions, but I can at least respect that he HAS an opinion.

Mr.Murder
01-30-2004, 12:55 AM
Clinton had opinons, he had a locked and then a republican majority congress so he ended up doing 'middle of road' policies. Bush has congress on his side in matter, he has no excuse.
That is the difference.

PhinPhan1227
01-30-2004, 10:25 AM
And that's what's got you so pissed. GW is able to get things done.

Mr.Murder
01-30-2004, 02:04 PM
That he has done something is no problem if the effect net was positive. Enough of your schoolkid replies, stop talking down on me and get back in the peanut gallery.
He is so great, states and local gov't are legistlating anti-patriot act material. The economy is the worst it has been since the depression.
"Why don't you mentor a child how to read?", St.Louis,MO Jan.5 ,2004.
"Then you wake up at the high-school level and find out the illiteracy level of our children are appalling." DC, Jan 23, '04.
The only thing he has done(to this point) is butcher our economy, our education, our health care, our standing as a global leader for peace, AND THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE WE SPEAK.

PhinPhan1227
01-30-2004, 05:51 PM
That was a bold faced lie. Our economy was worse than it is now several times over the last few decades. I know facts aren't a big issue for you, but JESUS!! As for "our standing as a global leader for peace", since when have we been seen as a global leader for peace? What fantasy world have you been living in? And you want a positive net effect? We've got two fascist governments taken down already, and a third(Libya) has made great strides, and a fourth(Iran) is moving closer to a democratic/secular government rather than it's totalitarian regime. Seems to be a net gain already.

DolphinDevil28
01-30-2004, 05:53 PM
I'd vote for GW 100 times more all over again if I could. He is a great president.

Mr.Murder
02-01-2004, 05:44 AM
Bush was not why Libyia did that, they were already on the UN council, they have made those strides over time, and diplomatically. I'm relly sure Khadaffhi was so worried when our military is stretched to its limits now.
It would be years before that came up as an issue if military action is what makes you think he changed on this. If anything the triumph of dilpmacy as opposed to war is what makes the libyia model stand out seperate, hans Blix said as much himslef.

PhinPhan1227
02-01-2004, 11:44 AM
ROFL!! Do me a favor, look up all the articles that hinted to the fact that Libya was going to abaondon its WMD and terrorist activites prior to Kadaffi's announcment. Whatever you want to say about sabre rattling, it was effective in Libya. Anyone with a shred of objectivity would admit THAT success for Bush if no other, but that would exclude you anyway, so I'm far from surprised.

Marino1983
02-01-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by TerryTate
vote people....


IF I was a RICH entrepreneur I would have voted :laughat: "the best President of all time".. :lol:

But the reality IS that being the aformentioned has or had about as much chance happening as W letting the Florida votes be counted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

Marino1983

Marino1983
02-01-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by DolphinDevil28
I'd vote for GW 100 times more all over again if I could. He is a great president.



:hmmm: :rolleyes2

:crazy:

Marino1983

PhinPhan1227
02-01-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Marino1983



IF I was a RICH entrepreneur I would have voted :laughat: "the best President of all time".. :lol:

But the reality IS that being the aformentioned has or had about as much chance happening as W letting the Florida votes be counted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

Marino1983

Florida votes were counted and recounted by several independant agencies after the election and every one of them gave the state to GW.

Mr.Murder
02-01-2004, 04:40 PM
Targeting Diebold with Electronic Civil Disobedience
Prepared by STAFF for Why War?
Why are these memos controversal? Read the excerpts and see for yourself, then read the campaign update or the most recent press release. You may also want to see where Diebold machines are used (pdf) and find out why they’re getting sued.
EDonkey/Overnet: How to get the files:

Browse the documents: http://chroot.net/s/lists/, http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~ping/diebold/lists.html
Search the documents: http://diebold.f-451.net/search/search.php
BitTorrent: http://cscott.net/Activism/lists.tgz.torrent
EDonkey/Overnet: [ed2k://|file|list.tar.bz2|7762005|c53855d1c5da1fec2da1548905bc689f|/]
Freenet:
CHK@sgOjWAy4g-0bf0m5biyqnEzWloENAwI,OXw8OfHPfsmLd068BtICKg/lists.tgz
CHK@fsatUAqLqJP91UTrCoReT3qciVYNAwI,whenOQbgnMLSo84zg1~~aA/lists.tar.bz2
Newsgroup postings: Help us do this
Archived file (tarred and gzipped):
here
here (checksum, sig)
On a Windows PC, use WinZip or WinRAR; on a Mac just double-click the file
.edu hosts of the documents (both archived and full-text):
Campaign Update
[ed2k://|file|list.tar.bz2|7762005|c53855d1c5da1fec2da1548905bc689f|/]
Freenet:
CHK@sgOjWAy4g-0bf0m5biyqnEzWloENAwI,OXw8OfHPfsmLd068BtICKg/lists.tgz
CHK@fsatUAqLqJP91UTrCoReT3qciVYNAwI,whenOQbgnMLSo84zg1~~aA/lists.tar.bz2
Newsgroup postings: Help us do this
Archived file (tarred and gzipped):
here
here (checksum, sig)
On a Windows PC, use WinZip or WinRAR; on a Mac just double-click the file
.edu hosts of the documents (both archived and full-text):


Campaign Update
Dec. 2: We won! Diebold has backed down from its legal threats. Future updates will be posted on the new, independent coalition website. An analysis of the campaign is also being written.

Day Seventeen, Nov. 6: Please refer to the new, independent coalition website for this campaign. All future updates will appear on that page and we will begin moving content from this feature onto that server.

Day Sixteen, Nov. 5: Off-year elections occurred in a handful of states and municipalities yesterday, and the results for electronic voting machines were decidedly mixed. In Northern Virginia, Republicans are filing a lawsuit after electronic voting machines manufactured by Advanced Voting Solutions malfunctioned and were removed from polling sites.



Diebold, on the other hand, was having more legal problems than anything else. In Alameda County, Calif., Diebold once again installed software that had never been certified by election officials, violating elections law:

State and county officials were dismayed last week to learn that Diebold Elections Systems Inc. altered the software running in Alameda County's touchscreen voting machines yet neither submitted it for state testing nor even notified state authorities of the change.
Diebold broke election law in a similar situation during the 2002 Georgia elections.

Speaking of Georgia, Diebold election officials in Macon apparently forgot to program the election computers to accept more than one write-in candidate:

The new touch-screen machines were counting the total number of votes for write-in candidates ... but were not breaking down that number by individual. ... Caldwell attributed the problem to officials with Diebold, the maker of the machines, who programmed the voting machines this week but were unaware there was more than one write-in candidate.
Are you comfortable trusting your vote to this company?


Paul Roberts at IDG News Service explains what the EFF lawsuit could mean for colleges and universities:

According to the DMCA, ISPs must address allegations in a copyright claim immediately, regardless of whether the person or persons responsible for the alleged violations have had a chance to respond to the charges ... the problem gets even thornier when the information universities are being asked to suppress is contributing to an intellectual or political debate, as the Diebold documents are, said [John Palfrey, executive director for the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard Law School]. "Universities are struggling with the question of whether they are ISPs first and universities second, or whether its the other way around," Palfrey said. "At some point we need to stand up in support of academic freedom."


Day Fifteen, Nov. 4: The Electronic Frontier Foundation’s suit against Diebold will go forward on Nov. 17 (press release). This means that further takedown notices from Diebold could be issued before then. Also see this coverage from the Associated Press.

Following the national media attention of the campaign and the subsequent lawsuit, Swarthmore College is now publicly supporting challenging Diebold’s suppression. We hope this will mean ever greater exposure of these documents. SCDC will be sponsoring a symposium at Swarthmore, “Choosing Clarity,” about the controversy surrounding electronic voting.

Max Keiser, the founder/chairman of KarmabanQue, writes:

No balance sheet is immune to dissent-risk. Diebold’s shareholders should start thinking about how this hot-button topic of voting fraud could negatively impact the price of the stock.

The business community is watching Diebold. Which makes now a perfect time to join the KarmabanQue campaign against Diebold.

We’d like to thank Jim March for his efforts which led to California suspending certification of Diebold’s machines.

We continue to receive more offers of mirroring from educational institutions, including our first international education mirror from Monash University in Australia. Thanks again to everyone who is participating.

Day Fourteen, Nov. 3: Read our most recent press release: Diebold Documents Spark International Campaign: Will Your Vote Count?

Students from the Swarthmore Coalition for the Digital Commons and the San Francisco Indymedia ISP Online Policy Group have filed suit against Diebold Elections Systems for abuse of copyright law (press release).

"Diebold's blanket cease-and-desist notices are a blatant abuse of copyright law," said [Electronic Frontier Foundation] Staff Attorney Wendy Seltzer. "Publication of the Diebold documents is clear fair use because of their importance to the public debate over the accuracy of electronic voting machines."


A list of counties that use Diebold voting machines is available thanks to BlackBoxVoting.org. Compare it with the list of presidential election primary dates.

The campaign has broken into two major venues today. The first article, from the Christian Science Monitor, has a good overview of the controversy from its beginning. In it, David Dill, a Stanford computer science professor, explains why the issue is so important:

"If you look at the consequences for democracy, it's terrifying. If we had a way to make [computerized voting] safe, believe me, we would. There's no way to run a reliable election without a verifiable paper trail — that's what these machines don't have."
(You can, of course, ask Congress to change this.)

The second article, by John Schwartz of the New York Times, includes this choice quote from computer scientist Rebecca Mercuri:

"Are these companies staffed by folks completely ignorant of computer security, or are they just blatantly flaunting that they can breach every possible rule of protocol and still sell voting machines everywhere with impunity?"


Day Thirteen, Nov. 2: Stephen Ansolabahere, a voting analyst at MIT, is quoted in an Associated Press story as saying:

The computer science community has pretty much rallied against electronic voting. A disproportionate number of computer scientists who have weighed in on this issue are opposed to it.
This is certainly borne out by this campaign — we now have 50 schools involved, including recent additions from Stanford, Grinnell, Princeton, Georgetown, Chicago, Rensselaer and two high schools. The mirrors are staying well ahead of Diebold’s takedown requests.

Why War? will soon be moving this information to a new website in order to allow the electronic civil disobedience campaign to prosper under its own momentum, and in acknowledgement of the vast number of students beyond our own group now engaged in this activity. Check back here for more information in the near future.


Day Nine, Oct. 29: The following is a statement by Why War? member Micah White, a senior in philosophy and a minor in interpretation theory at Swarthmore College in Swarthmore, Pa.:

Diebold can’t win! Each takedown request is simply met with more mirrors. We are willing and able to continue this campaign until the 2004 presidential elections. We will not allow Diebold’s faulty voting machines to replace democracy.
Why War? has now received a second takedown request (first letter, second letter). Diebold’s use of the DMCA is absurd and their actions are irrelevant. Nearly 100,000 people have now read this website. We estimate that at least 30,000 people have downloaded the entire collection of 13,000 memos directly from just three of the mirrors above. The memos are on peer-to-peer file trading systems. They are in Freenet.
Diebold is, by its corporate nature, providing proof for the suspicions of millions of people world wide who are now beginning to hear about this controversy. Diebold, we will not stop until there is an open examination of your misdeeds. (Will they put that line in their next takedown request?)
What will Diebold do when they cannot stop the movement from posting their memos? How will they retailiate?
The response thus far has been amazing. If Why War? doesn’t respond immediately to your e-mail we apologize, but we do need your mirrors. Directions are available.

Day Eight, Oct. 28: Amherst and MIT have received takedown requests (copy of MIT takedown request). New mirrors are now up at UNC, Duke, Berkeley, NCSU and U Penn.

Diebold has publicly admitted that leaked memos do not meet DMCA standards for copyright infringement. In the Associated Press article, a Diebold representative declares:


... the fact that the company sent the cease-and-desist letters does not mean the documents are authentic — or give credence to advocates who claim lax Diebold security could allow hackers to rig machines.


"We're cautioning anyone from drawing wrong or incomplete conclusions about any of those documents or files purporting to be authentic," Jacobsen said.

Ernest Miller explains that the DMCA requires that documents be authentic; if the documents aren’t authentic, it isn’t copyright infringement. Our position is that even if the memos are authentic (which we believe they are, or Diebold would be pursuing a libel campaign), they are not copyright infringment as they are covered under DMCA fair use guidelines.


Since some of you have been asking, yes, Swarthmore College is still enforcing its policy of cutting off network access to students who link to information about the memos (or the memos themselves). There have been many discussions of this absurd policy — see, for instance, LawMeme’s analysis — and we appreciate the letters that are being sent to Dean Gross and The Phoenix (e.g. Seth Finkelstein’s). We hope that by expanding to other colleges and universities we can broaden the campaign while minimizing the impact of our own institution’s refusal to take a stand. (If other educational institutions encounter such policies, this script may be of help.)

Day Seven, Oct. 27: The movement is winning. The story is spreading (Associated Press). Diebold’s actions are being thrust into the light. How long can they pursue the sepression of evidence that links them directly to election fraud? Every lawsuit is simply another admission of guilt. Thus, we are pleased to announce that students at Indiana University, Harvard, and Berkeley have now joined this campaign against Diebold.


Today Andrea Foster authored an excellent article about this battle in the Chronicle for Higher Education. She writes:

[A spokesperson] said Diebold will continue to send copyright-infringement notices to Internet service providers that host the company documents, including the four other institutions — the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Purdue University, the University of Southern California, and the University of Texas–Pan American. The materials were first obtained by Bev Harris, who is writing a book about modern-day ballot-tampering. According to published accounts, she found the materials on an unprotected Web site while doing a Google search.

Why War? asks that the movement call their bluff. Together, we can create a permanent, public, and easily accessible location for these memos. Those unable to mirror should use their talents in other ways. We need people to be deep-reading these memos and sharing exerpts. Others need to be calling their election officials and demanding that they address your concerns (one request could be this bill). And, of course, others need to be sharing with us all how to short sell Diebold’s stock so that when its price decreases the movement will prosper. Investors, now is your chance to join the struggle.

Day Six, Oct. 26: Three additional schools have been added to the list. There are now eleven .edu mirrors.

Day Five, Oct. 25: Students from four more universities, along with a second mirror at MIT, have joined the campaign.


Day Four, Oct. 24: Students from four American universities have joined the civil disobedience: MIT, USC, Purdue and the University of Texas–Pan American. Check out Black Box Voting for a startling expose on Diebold’s connection to the debacle in Florida. This is from the individual who broke the whole story about Diebold.

A visitor wrote an e-mail of support and noted:

While doing some research about electronic voting and the Diebold machines in particular, I came across this story alleging widespread vote skimming by Diebold systems in the recent California Recall election.
I think these allegations merit wider distribution and further investigation. It is important to note that these allegations include Diebold optical scan results, allowing for the possibility of a manual recount to substantiate or refute the claims made.
More information is available here.


Day Three, Oct. 23: Just as the civil disobedience campaign is starting to break into the mainstream press, Swarthmore College has decided to further their suppression of the Diebold memos. College policy is now that any links to why-war.com with the intention of providing information about Diebold will result in termination of that student’s Internet connection. Therefore, it is now a punishable offense for any Swarthmore student to link to the page you are now reading! Because of the wide support that this issue is receiving from the students, faculty, and staff of Swarthmore — including many e-mails of support and a positive editorial in the campus newspaper — we are confused by Swarthmore’s refusal to take a pro-democracy stance on this issue. Swarthmore’s latest repression turns this act of civil disobedience into one protecting both fair elections and free speech — the ability to link to websites.


We encourage you to send letters voicing your opinions directly to Swarthmore’s student newspaper, The Phoenix (phoenix_letters@swarthmore.edu). You may want to reference some of the excerpts we’ve selected from the college’s literature (see below).

The good news is that the civil disobedience continues and we are receiving massive amounts of support from both the press and the Internet-at-large. This is in addition to reports that have already appeared in Slashdot, Wired News, Philadelphia Daily News, Infoshop, The Inquirer and elsewhere.

We thought it might be informative to reference Swarthmore’s own stated mission. The following are quotes from their “Mission Statement”:


Foremost among these principles is the individual’s responsibility for seeking and applying truth and for testing whatever truth one believes one has found.
A college draws strength from tradition and energy from the necessity of change. Its purposes and policies must respond to new conditions and new demands. By being open to change, Swarthmore tries to provide for its students, by means appropriate to the times, the standard of excellence it has sought to maintain from its founding.
The purpose of Swarthmore College is to make its students more valuable human beings and more useful members of society.
The following quotes are from the admissions website:


The purpose of Swarthmore’s liberal arts curriculum is to help students fulfill their responsibilities as citizens and grow into cultured and versatile individuals.
Swarthmore is about making a difference in the world. There’s a real emphasis on making things better—not just identifying problems or theorizing about solutions, but actually rolling up your sleeves and improving some corner of your community.
Day Two, Oct. 22: Today Why War? and the Swarthmore Coalition for the Digital Commons held a public meeting with Dean Bob Gross of Swarthmore College. Overnight, word had spread of this action and Gross had received over 250 emails of support from individuals throughout the world including “tech celebrities” and Swarthmore alumni.
Swarthmore College, unfortunately, is not willing to take a strong stand against Diebold, and is systematically disabling the network access of any student who hosts the files. “We can’t get out in front in this fight against Diebold,” Gross said during the meeting with over fifty students, staff, and faculty. Gross, apparently, did not see that by taking an active stance against Why War’s actions Swarthmore was aiding Diebold’s suppression.



Although Why War? acknowledges Swarthmore’s position, we will continue to explain the importance of this issue to the administration. We had hoped that an institution once praised for allegiance to the pursuit of truth would have taken a more forceful stance in defense of information. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the college would be under no liability after informing a student that s/he should not be hosting the file. Yet Swarthmore is choosing to act counter to the spirit of both its traditions and rules, the latter of which requires that students be given three days to take down work challenged as an infringement of copyright. There is no provision under either the DMCA or Swarthmore’s own rules to allow for shutting down a student’s network access when no challenge has been made against that specific student. Why War? is deeply distressed by Swarthmore’s inability, or unwillingness, to understand that the magnitude of this situation: a fair presidential election!


After consultation with SCDC, the two groups have decided to work independently of each other. SCDC will now issue statements on their website. Why War? will continue to provide access to the memos by listing mirrors provided by individuals worldwide.

If you would like to join this campaign of electronic civil disobedience by hosting the memos please e-mail ecd-info@why-war.com. For those unable to host the documents, we encourage you to send letters expressing your disappointment about Swarthmore’s lack of principle directly to the college newspaper, at phoenix_letters@swarthmore.edu (and please cc your letters to us).


Representatives of the media should contact media@why-war.com.

Why War? believes that what we are doing is legal; though we see it as an issue of electronic civil disobedience we believe it is Diebold which is abusing copyright law in an attempt to shut down free speech and the democratic process. The four criteria of “fair use” copyright law are the purpose of the use, the nature of the copyrighted work, the substantiality of the portion used and the effect of the use upon the potential market of the copyrighted work. We believe the publication of these documents is integral to the function of the democratic process. The memoranda themselves are not marketable products, and in this case we believe the nature of the work, which threatens elections occurring in 37 states, outweighs the need to selectively excerpt portions of the documents. If there is anything the American people have a right to know, it is how their votes are being counted.


Read our earlier press release.

Excerpts from the Diebold Documents
“Elections are not rocket science. Why is it so hard to get things right! I have never been at any other company that has been so miss [sic] managed.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/announce.w3archive/200110/msg00002.html ]


In response to a question about a presentation in El Paso County, Colorado: “For a demonstration I suggest you fake it. Progam them both so they look the same, and then just do the upload fro [sic] the AV. That is what we did in the last AT/AV demo.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archive/199903/msg00098.html ]

“I have become increasingly concerned about the apparent lack of concern over the practice of writing contracts to provide products and services which do not exist and then attempting to build these items on an unreasonable timetable with no written plan, little to no time for testing, and minimal resources. It also seems to be an accepted practice to exaggerate our progress and functionality to our customers and ourselves then make excuses at delivery time when these products and services do not meet expectations.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/announce.w3archive/200110/msg00001.html ]


“I feel that over the next year, if the current management team stays in place, the Global [Election Management System] working environment will continue to be a chaotic mess. Global management has and will be doing the best to keep their jobs at the expense of employees. Unrealistic goals will be placed on current employees, they will fail to achieve them. If Diebold wants to keep things the same for the time being, this will only compound an already dysfunctional company. Due to the lack of leadership, vision, and self-preserving nature of the current management, the future growth of this company will continue to stagnate until change comes.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/announce.w3archive/200112/msg00007.html ]


“[T]he bugzilla historic data recovery process is complete. Some bugs were irrecoverably lost and they will have to be re-found and re-submitted, but overall the loss was relatively minor.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archive/200207/msg00090.html ]

“28 of 114 or about 1 in 4 precincts called in this AM with either memory card issues "please re-insert", units that wouldn't take ballots - even after recycling power, or units that needed to be recycled. We reburned 7 memory cards, 4 of which we didn't need to, but they were far enough away that we didn't know what we'd find when we got there (bad rover communication).” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archive/200003/msg00034.html ]

“If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archive/200009/msg00109.html ]


“I need some answers! Our department is being audited by the County. I have been waiting for someone to give me an explanation as to why Precinct 216 gave Al Gore a minus 16022 when it was uploaded. Will someone please explain this so that I have the information to give the auditor instead of standing here "looking dumb".” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archive/200101/msg00068.html ]

“[...] while reading some of Paranoid Bev’s scribbling.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archive/200302/msg00069.html ]

“Johnson County, KS will be doing Central Count for their mail in ballots. They will also be processing these ballots in advance of the closing of polls on election day. They would like to log into the Audit Log an entry for Previewing any Election Total Reports. They need this, to prove to the media, as well as, any candidates & lawyers, that they did not view or print any Election Results before the Polls closed. However, if there is a way that we can disable the reporting functionality, that would be even better.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/rcr.w3archive/200202/msg00051.html ] (emphasis added)

“4K Smart cards which had never been previously programmed are being recognized by the Card Manager as manager cards. When a virgin card from CardLogix is inserted into a Spyrus (have tried CM-0-2-9 and CM-1-1-1) the prompt "Upgrade Mgr Card?" is displayed. Pressing the ENTER key creates a valid manager card. This happens in Admin mode and Election mode.” [source: http://chroot.net/s/lists/bugtrack.w3arch

[B]There's your diebold scam shown to what it is including intercompany memos...

Mr.Murder
02-01-2004, 04:46 PM
As for the economy- a record number of unemployment recipients maxed out thier funds, the faux news spin will "unemployment has gone down! Jobless recovery!"


We have recieved an IMF warning, if you do not believe that google search it. Our interest rate is too low for capital generation. Our nation's dollar is so low it is a risk to world economy.

"National debt is really not a good indication of how much we owe..." G. W. bush...

PhinPhan1227
02-01-2004, 09:29 PM
1)If you think anyone is going to read that 10 page post which(at a glance), has nothing to do with the Bush/Gore election, you're crazy.

2)The interest rate was what carried us through the worst part of the downturn. New home and new vehicle purchases kept us afloat during the downtime following the dot.com burst. They can now begin to bring it back up slowly(which they've already said they would), to more reasonable levels.

Here's a question for you Murder. Why didn't Bill Clinton do more to cushion the country from the Dot.Com burst which EVERY economist knew was coming?

Mr.Murder
02-02-2004, 12:52 AM
Check how much of his budget was struck down by the repuke congress. And by the way, nice to see bush promised accountability for ENRON and cheney put their chair on the energy task force.

The structring he did as an adjustment to prevent market overvaluation was one of the first things Bush dismantled.
And how many new homes will be built with everyone's jobs sold off?
And that entire diebold post included interoffice emails of theirs and evidence of election laws violations. Because there is so much volume of their intent to damage democracy you think it makes it too long to read and therefore not of relevance.
just goes to show how ignoring the trruth is your M.O. and makes sense to you.

The interest rate carried us? You laud low interest rates but ignore a deficit. Ya know , just counting interest alone it is the 30,000 plus per household now. Three hundred per kid equals thirty thousand a house, I love repugnant-con mathmatics and how the numbers never add up as promised . "Reagn proved deficits didn't matter..." well not to Cheney or Reagan, they didn't pay the deficit bills, we did.

PhinPhan1227
02-02-2004, 01:05 AM
Wartime + bubble burst = deficit. The war alone probably would have run into deficit spending as it has with every other war America has fought. And yes, the interest rate DID carry us. Go back and check the numbers and see where America was spending money for the last 2 years. Cars and homes. Those were the only two industries that sustained growth over the last two years, and they did so because of interest rates. Those are facts. Lastly....

"The structring he did as an adjustment to prevent market overvaluation was one of the first things Bush dismantled"

The overvaluation was ongoing throughout Clintons 2nd term. Bush took over a GROSSLY inflated economy. Clinton had a full term to do something about it and left it for the next guy to take care of so he could say he had a budget surplus and a great stock market, when both were illusory.

Mr.Murder
02-03-2004, 05:40 PM
Bankruptcies hitting high all time rates as well.
So to solve a bubble burst you sell off jobs and cut taxes for the richest...the tax cuts were nowhere near fair on a dollar amount.
As for the rich paying more it is part of the vested interest in society, a fact our nation was built on and the return on dollar of a stable secure dollar is what makes this work.
That is gone now, voodoo economics and voodoo tax cuts are all that is left. And we are still .4% under that growth rate of GDP per year from when he took over... you should get what you pay for, we have yet to see Bush's policies work.
His latest budget plans were deficit. His latest deficit reduction plans were shown to be inaccurate as well. As long as whoever they get to present the info lies for sound bite the news will rarely follow up replies by reporters who follow business close enough to have grounded understanding of the policy and principles of the subject they report.
Next time Rove will be sure to restrict their press crendentials to stop such discrepancies with the facts.

We are no longer the number one market in the world, the EU is taking that over because their jobs pay enough to make for high end purchases.

And the foreclosure rate is becoming a benchmark of recession as well. Despite the low interest rates... something will have to give on this matter soon.

So it's all CLinton's fault, a blow job years ago made us sell off jobs, import workers to lower wage rates, and let current stock market overvaluations return to puch the DOW bubble with less business oversight from polciy/structure standpoints.

Thanks for letting us know this 1227. We can all blame it on on someone whose best speeches actually support the chimp of late...lol... all those CLinton bashers kind of look funny with his speech in support of free trade agreements going now.
Seems like the shrub has asked for help in this matter and begs BillGlobalist to do damage control for war and economy.
Never mind the war information is based on pre-inspection evaluations which proved its open-ended worst case statements false before the war even occurred (thanks to Mr.Ritter). As for trade, the pace and oversight to make it occur in constructive fashion was ignored and in this matter even Billy Boy said it should be assessed further before acted upon.
Seems like some people wanna run all over that big ol' economic progress model and make it all happen in a flash so profit margins overcome wise fiscal pace that would lead to viable trade and avoid one sided deficits.

PhinPhan1227
02-03-2004, 05:52 PM
"the tax cuts were nowhere near fair on a dollar amount. As for the rich paying more it is part of the vested interest in society, a fact our nation was built on and the return on dollar of a stable secure dollar is what makes this work."

Again, you're clueless. Our nation was built on taxation of the rich? Care to see how long this country functioned without an income tax? The wealthy pay more, so they deserve to get more back. They also invest more, thus putting more money back into the economy. Fair? The only thing you would find fair is someone else supporting you're socialist butt. I've worked for small business owners. All of them were what you'd call wealthy. I didn't like all of them, but at least I recognized the fact that without them I wouldn't have had a job. As such, I also recognize that if they pay more up front, they deserve to get more back. You however think that they somehow owe you something just for breathing. Oh, as for the EU, those nifty socialized medicine programs over in france and Germany that Dean wanted to emulate? They're almost bancrupt. You might also want to check out the unemployment levels in Germany and France before you tout them as examples. But that would require you to actually consider facts.

Mr.Murder
02-03-2004, 06:28 PM
Almost bankrupt medicine prgorams= our tillions of deficit... thanks for clarifying. That is the fact that you need to clarify...

Taxation is not an evil, taxation without representation is what is evil...this current administration is not representative of the majority, 550,000 votes less as a matter of fact.

PhinPhan1227
02-03-2004, 06:50 PM
Lol...the last gasp of the desperate...running back to the elcetion. If you don't like the electoral college, change it. Until then, deal with it.