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Boomer
03-30-2010, 07:21 PM
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2010/03/analyzing_the_dolphins_draft_w_3.html

ROADRUNNER
03-30-2010, 08:05 PM
good read and great work, keep it up...............

j-off-her-doll
03-30-2010, 08:11 PM
Great stuff.

Markcalius
03-30-2010, 08:11 PM
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2010/03/analyzing_the_dolphins_draft_w_3.html

Hadn't realized how many QB prospects the Dolphins have checked out.

You guys make anything of that in light of the fact that we are already sitting on 4? Those don't all look like QB-to-receiver converts.

j-off-her-doll
03-30-2010, 08:19 PM
I agree that Graham and Hughes are the top-two prospects at OLB. I go back and forth as to who I'd prefer at 12.

I love Worilds, but I wonder if we'll view him as too small. The injury concerns are also an issue.

Sapp is an interesting prospect to me. He's an amazing athlete with range and explosion, but it's never translated to much. If he falls to the 3rd (don't see it happening; think someone will overdraft him because of his athletic ability), the upside might be too much to pass up. If his knee checks out and Nolan is confident that he can coach him up, he's one of the two or three best looking OLB's in shorts, and our S & C programs is sure to fill out his frame.

Sapp and Kindle are more or less the same to me in this regard: they both need coaching; how well will they take to it? Both could be better pros than college players, but both could be busts.

dolfan_101
03-30-2010, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the read(:

ckparrothead
03-30-2010, 08:30 PM
Hadn't realized how many QB prospects the Dolphins have checked out.

You guys make anything of that in light of the fact that we are already sitting on 4? Those don't all look like QB-to-receiver converts.

I think they're looking to keep developing guys and flip them off to high bidders. I think the reason they got snagged on that no-trade clause with Chad Pennington is because they have it in mind to trade him to a team that suddenly discovers they have no QB during training camp or the regular season, either due to misguided personnel choices or due to injury. I think they also would look to trade Tyle Thigpen. They're stuck with Pat White, don't think anyone will trade for him. But if they're as high on him as they say all the time then maybe they don't think being stuck with him is such a bad thing.

Phin-Phan 66
03-30-2010, 08:34 PM
These guys show amazingly detailed work on our Dolphins. It really is a priveledge to have this type of information coming to us all.
I wonder if the front office thinks highly of Universal's assesments...

datruth55
03-30-2010, 08:38 PM
I agree that Graham and Hughes are the top-two prospects at OLB. I go back and forth as to who I'd prefer at 12.

I love Worilds, but I wonder if we'll view him as too small. The injury concerns are also an issue.

Sapp is an interesting prospect to me. He's an amazing athlete with range and explosion, but it's never translated to much. If he falls to the 3rd (don't see it happening; think someone will overdraft him because of his athletic ability), the upside might be too much to pass up. If his knee checks out and Nolan is confident that he can coach him up, he's one of the two or three best looking OLB's in shorts, and our S & C programs is sure to fill out his frame.

Sapp and Kindle are more or less the same to me in this regard: they both need coaching; how well will they take to it? Both could be better pros than college players, but both could be busts.
Kindle has the advantage of having played linebacker in college but he is a bit stiff in the hips and I question his coverage ability although I think he would be stout against the run as a SOLB.

Markcalius
03-30-2010, 08:41 PM
I think they're looking to keep developing guys and flip them off to high bidders. I think the reason they got snagged on that no-trade clause with Chad Pennington is because they have it in mind to trade him to a team that suddenly discovers they have no QB during training camp or the regular season, either due to misguided personnel choices or due to injury. I think they also would look to trade Tyle Thigpen. They're stuck with Pat White, don't think anyone will trade for him. But if they're as high on him as they say all the time then maybe they don't think being stuck with him is such a bad thing.

I considered that too, but that leaves them with no veteran backup. ...Actually, it not only leaves them with no veteran backup, but it leaves them with Pat White and a project. Doesn't that seem uncharacteristic for the kind of move this FO would make?

Does seem like someone is trade bait, but I wonder if they aren't preparing for the possible release of Pat White.

j-off-her-doll
03-30-2010, 08:44 PM
I considered that too, but that leaves them with no veteran backup. ...Actually, it not only leaves them with no veteran backup, but it leaves them with Pat White and a project. Doesn't that seem uncharacteristic for the kind of move this FO would make?

Does seem like someone is trade bait, but I wonder if they aren't preparing for the possible release of Pat White.

Don't see them trading Thigpen and Pennington. Unless I misread CK, I think he was saying that could trade either - not both.

Markcalius
03-30-2010, 08:47 PM
Don't see them trading Thigpen and Pennington. Unless I misread CK, I think he was saying that could trade either - not both.

Then the question remains: why bring in a project when you have 3 QBs?

j-off-her-doll
03-30-2010, 08:49 PM
Then the question remains: why bring in a project when you have 3 QBs?

We'll see what they do with White.

Mr. Magoo
03-30-2010, 09:01 PM
Great work once again. But I've got to ask, why do you guys not consider AJ Edds to be a SOLB prospect? I recognize that he doesn't have the experience rushing the passer as some of the other guys, but if he's going to be covering half of the time I don't know why pure pass rushing ability would trump both movement ability in the passing game and strength against the run.

Looking at all these guys I don't see a prospect out there this year that we can be sure has all three of those attributes (pure pass rushing, movement/coverage in space, run defense). But when you look at guys like Calvin Pace who they tried to bring in for that position, what he lacked was the pure pass rushing ability, not the other two things.

At 6'4, 240+, Edds has the size they like (and overall I think you guys are minimizing the important of pure height to this regime. Guys like Hughes and Graham don't even stand 6'2. If Keith Butler had been hired away from Pittsburgh I could see it. But it's not in Nolan's history), good strength against the run, and the ability to cover. With a free lane to the quarterback he certainly has the straight line speed to get there.

Maybe there's something I'm missing. All these guys are conversion projects. I see no reason why a 4-3 defensive end can make the transition but not a 4-3 outside linebacker, particularly one of Edds' size, strength and intelligence.

ckparrothead
03-30-2010, 09:09 PM
I strongly disagree with that assessment of Calvin Pace, first off. I do believe that ultimately they will want a guy who can rush the passer to play SOLB. Manny Lawson was the guy that Nolan tabbed for the position in San Fran and Robert Ayers was the guy they tabbed for it in Denver, and both guys were DE converts that were athletic and skilled enough to be everything guys.

If a guy is rushing the passer 50-60% of the time from a certain formation then he needs to be a good pass rusher, otherwise he's useless. There's no easy way to get to the QB, but there are easy ways to cover in zone.

j-off-her-doll
03-30-2010, 09:10 PM
Great work once again. But I've got to ask, why do you guys not consider AJ Edds to be a SOLB prospect? I recognize that he doesn't have the experience rushing the passer as some of the other guys, but if he's going to be covering half of the time I don't know why pure pass rushing ability would trump both movement ability in the passing game and strength against the run.

Looking at all these guys I don't see a prospect out there this year that we can be sure has all three of those attributes (pure pass rushing, movement/coverage in space, run defense). But when you look at guys like Calvin Pace who they tried to bring in for that position, what he lacked was the pure pass rushing ability, not the other two things.

At 6'4, 240+, Edds has the size they like (and overall I think you guys are minimizing the important of pure height to this regime. Guys like Hughes and Graham don't even stand 6'2. If Keith Butler had been hired away from Pittsburgh I could see it. But it's not in Nolan's history), good strength against the run, and the ability to cover. With a free lane to the quarterback he certainly has the straight line speed to get there.

Maybe there's something I'm missing. All these guys are conversion projects. I see no reason why a 4-3 defensive end can make the transition but not a 4-3 outside linebacker, particularly one of Edds' size, strength and intelligence.

Think you make some good points about Edds. My concerns would be that 240+. I don't know that he has the weight to set the edge at SOLB. Wouldn't mind him in the 3rd, though. Think he has a lot of versatility.

SR 7
03-30-2010, 09:18 PM
I strongly disagree with that assessment of Calvin Pace, first off. I do believe that ultimately they will want a guy who can rush the passer to play SOLB. Manny Lawson was the guy that Nolan tabbed for the position in San Fran and Robert Ayers was the guy they tabbed for it in Denver, and both guys were DE converts that were athletic and skilled enough to be everything guys.

If a guy is rushing the passer 50-60% of the time from a certain formation then he needs to be a good pass rusher, otherwise he's useless. There's no easy way to get to the QB, but there are easy ways to cover in zone.

so with taht being said, who are the strongest possibilities for OLB for us? I see Graham as one, hughes as he is a great pass rusher, Worilds, Cunningham but they sort of make it hard because again, each one goes in a different round almost. I thnk its impossible ot figure out who they really would go for at 12. I give up loll

datruth55
03-30-2010, 09:21 PM
Great work once again. But I've got to ask, why do you guys not consider AJ Edds to be a SOLB prospect? I recognize that he doesn't have the experience rushing the passer as some of the other guys, but if he's going to be covering half of the time I don't know why pure pass rushing ability would trump both movement ability in the passing game and strength against the run.

Looking at all these guys I don't see a prospect out there this year that we can be sure has all three of those attributes (pure pass rushing, movement/coverage in space, run defense). But when you look at guys like Calvin Pace who they tried to bring in for that position, what he lacked was the pure pass rushing ability, not the other two things.

At 6'4, 240+, Edds has the size they like (and overall I think you guys are minimizing the important of pure height to this regime. Guys like Hughes and Graham don't even stand 6'2. If Keith Butler had been hired away from Pittsburgh I could see it. But it's not in Nolan's history), good strength against the run, and the ability to cover. With a free lane to the quarterback he certainly has the straight line speed to get there.

Maybe there's something I'm missing. All these guys are conversion projects. I see no reason why a 4-3 defensive end can make the transition but not a 4-3 outside linebacker, particularly one of Edds' size, strength and intelligence.

Good point about this regimes height "requirement". Although I believe the height thing will be somewhat minimized by the fact that Nolan is running this defense and he's not as reluctant to draft someone under 6'3" to play the linebacker position. He did take Patrick Willis #1 and Willis stands only 6'1".

I like Edds a lot but I would put him inside next to Dansby. I think he would be the perfect compliment to Dansby especially with his coverage ability. I think he has the versatility to play all linebacker spots in the 3-4 though.

Mr. Magoo
03-30-2010, 09:34 PM
I strongly disagree with that assessment of Calvin Pace, first off. I do believe that ultimately they will want a guy who can rush the passer to play SOLB. Manny Lawson was the guy that Nolan tabbed for the position in San Fran and Robert Ayers was the guy they tabbed for it in Denver, and both guys were DE converts that were athletic and skilled enough to be everything guys.

If a guy is rushing the passer 50-60% of the time from a certain formation then he needs to be a good pass rusher, otherwise he's useless. There's no easy way to get to the QB, but there are easy ways to cover in zone.

But you just said this about Ayers in the story today:

“They got a lot of snaps out of the kid, they had him playing a real standing up role again, he was dropping back into coverage and doing well with it, everything shouldn't just be about sacks especially the way that defense is set up.”

I agree with that completely. I'm working my way through all of Denver's games right now and while pass rushing is certainly a big part of what they want that guy to do, it's not the only thing.

Edds doesn't have the experience right now going forward and getting after the quarterback. But I think he's big enough, strong enough and skilled enough to learn, especially since he won't be asked to do it nearly all the time the way Pasqualoni would have had him do it.

Is it your assessment that it's harder to teach a guy to be a pass rusher than it is to teach him to cover both in space and man to man, assuming he has the ability?

BobDole
03-30-2010, 10:56 PM
I strongly disagree with that assessment of Calvin Pace, first off. I do believe that ultimately they will want a guy who can rush the passer to play SOLB. Manny Lawson was the guy that Nolan tabbed for the position in San Fran and Robert Ayers was the guy they tabbed for it in Denver, and both guys were DE converts that were athletic and skilled enough to be everything guys.

If a guy is rushing the passer 50-60% of the time from a certain formation then he needs to be a good pass rusher, otherwise he's useless. There's no easy way to get to the QB, but there are easy ways to cover in zone.

agreed. except OLB's - who i assume you were talking about - in the 3-4 - including ours - rush the QB more like 75-80% of the time. that's what they're there for.

Pat-London
03-30-2010, 11:07 PM
As per usual, outstanding info. I also, really do enjoy the conversational/debate style, just adds to it a wee bit.

Guys.. do you know if there has been any interviews/work outs with Cumberland, TE, Illinois?

Loving - J. Worlids at 43 and Scofield in the 6th.

ckparrothead
03-30-2010, 11:16 PM
But you just said this about Ayers in the story today:

“They got a lot of snaps out of the kid, they had him playing a real standing up role again, he was dropping back into coverage and doing well with it, everything shouldn't just be about sacks especially the way that defense is set up.”

That's a little bit out of context. In the chat when I was bringing that up, I was bringing up the fact that Robert Ayers made 22 plays on the QB which included 17 Pressures and 5 Hits, and in 250 pass rushes, those are pretty good numbers for a rookie pass rusher. Sometimes you're a good pass rusher but you just don't get the opportunity to dot the i with the sack. If sacks were the all-important indicator, then Jason Taylor would have been out of the league after 1999. If sacks were the all-important predictor of success, Tony Brackens would have been tossed out of the league after 1998 and nobody would have maintained any semblance of faith in Tamba Hali after 2008. But these guys all put a lot of pressure on the QB, and all became some of the best pass rushers in football.

Robert Ayers did well as a pass rusher and as an all-around player, and I just found that Simon and Richard weren't giving him enough credit for that. That's what that quote was about.


Edds doesn't have the experience right now going forward and getting after the quarterback. But I think he's big enough, strong enough and skilled enough to learn, especially since he won't be asked to do it nearly all the time the way Pasqualoni would have had him do it.

I just don't think he has the explosion for it.


Is it your assessment that it's harder to teach a guy to be a pass rusher than it is to teach him to cover both in space and man to man, assuming he has the ability?

Yes, absolutely one hundred times over yes. I'm saying that when you're pass rushing, it's pretty rare for you to get an easy way to the QB unless the play is planned that way for a specific reason. It's harder to make noise and be an effective pass rusher than it is to be an effective cover guy.

Aqua and Orange
03-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Awesome article as always guys.

What do you make of the fact that the team has not brought Dez in for a visit? Is the team writing him off, or is it nothing to worry about?

Mr. Magoo
03-31-2010, 01:31 AM
Yes, absolutely one hundred times over yes. I'm saying that when you're pass rushing, it's pretty rare for you to get an easy way to the QB unless the play is planned that way for a specific reason. It's harder to make noise and be an effective pass rusher than it is to be an effective cover guy.

I get that it's harder to find pass rushers than cover guys. My question was -- assuming you have the physical ability -- whether you think it's harder to learn the techniques of pass rushing than the techniques of coverage and playing in space.

You don't think Edds has the explosion. All right then, fine. I think he wasn't given many opportunities to show whether he does and his raw numbers suggest that he might.

Blend of combine/pro day: 1.60 10 yard split. 35.5 inch vertical. 10 foot broad jump. At 6'304 and 246 pounds, those are pretty good "explosion" numbers. Certainly those are numbers you can work with, though of course they don't prove anything.

Now obviously the guy isn't a top pick. Probably somewhere in the 4th or 5th. But I think he might potentially be outstanding value there.

JCfinfan
03-31-2010, 01:36 AM
Great read! Brandon Graham is our man.

hooshoops
03-31-2010, 01:36 AM
i don't see edds as a 3-4 olb fit at all...

hooshoops
03-31-2010, 01:41 AM
i watched the cuts i believe that you put together ck of adrian tracy and i didn't come away all that impressed...i think a guy who's gonna do damage in the pros as an olb should dominate that level of competition...and i didn't see it...

i did see some nice straight line acceleration to the ball when he had a clean look but i didn't think as an edge rusher he displayed explosive qualities...

ckparrothead
03-31-2010, 07:26 AM
Adrian Tracy is certainly not a premium prospect, but he moves around well and is built well, I believe he dominated Texas vs Nation. All of these guys have to get better and be taught to be cleaner players.

Dolfan1000
03-31-2010, 08:17 AM
For all the talk of this being such a strong class of conversion guys, I find myself struggling to find that perfect fit for Miami. It seems that the best players dont necessarily fit the size prototype, and the players who fit the size prototype have a significant weakness in their game. Going into this offseason, I would have bet anything that our top pick would be either an ILB or an OLB, and after signing Dansby, I just assumed it would be an OLB. Even though I believe that Parcells would love nothing more than to add a Demarcus Ware type talent to this defense, I just don't see that premium 3-4 OLB prospect in this draft. It seems to me like you guys would agree.

Pat-London
03-31-2010, 10:00 AM
We'll soon see, because Nolan clearly has no issues with shorter 3-4 OLBs (Parys Haralson and Elvis Dumervil). If Brandon Graham is the pick, we will be throwing the Parcells prototype out the window.

Indeed... the thing is, Parcells was brought in to re-build the organisation and part of that was bringing in Ireland and Sparano, and as much as they are his guys, they are also their own men with their own opinions and I would think that brining in Nolan, you have to let him run the defense the way he wants to... and again.. no point in going square peg round hole with someone else's prototypes...

As you say.. we shall see and Im very interested in seeing the dynamics in all this.

Pat-London
03-31-2010, 02:06 PM
Ahh.. but whose prototype are we talking about? Parcells? or Nolans?

Considering this is really Jeff Ireland's team now and the draft is his baby... taking an old Parcells saying about being able to shop for the groceries if you're going to cook the meal... will Ireland allow Nolan to influence on what could be a different prototype requirement?

Boomer
03-31-2010, 03:14 PM
These guys show amazingly detailed work on our Dolphins. It really is a priveledge to have this type of information coming to us all.
I wonder if the front office thinks highly of Universal's assesments...

Very kind of you mate.

In all honesty, I'd be a) amazed if they knew and b) if they did, that they gave a hoot!

Mr. Magoo
03-31-2010, 05:17 PM
We'll soon see, because Nolan clearly has no issues with shorter 3-4 OLBs (Parys Haralson and Elvis Dumervil). If Brandon Graham is the pick, we will be throwing the Parcells prototype out the window.

Wrong. Nolan does care about short LBs. Dumervil was there before he got there and guys like Haralson and Willis are exceptions that more than anything prove the rule.

Go back in his history and look at the linebackers that were drafted while he was the DC or HC.

Oh wait. I already did.

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271786

In 17 years, there was like 4 or 5 of them. That's it.

Dolfan1000
03-31-2010, 05:28 PM
Ahh.. but who's prototype are we talking about? Parcells? or Nolans?

Considering this is really Jeff Ireland's team now and the draft is his baby... taking an old Parcells saying about being able to shop for the groceries if you're going to cook the meal... will Ireland allow Nolan to influence on what could be a different prototype requirement?

We'll soon see, because Nolan clearly has no issues with shorter 3-4 OLBs (Parys Haralson and Elvis Dumervil). If Brandon Graham is the pick, we will be throwing the Parcells prototype out the window.