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Phin-Phan 66
04-01-2010, 02:00 AM
Yes, Dolphans, it's yet another thread about Dez. The guy has had a few issues. Some major, some minor. Is the this type of player you want to throw millions of dollars at and let loose on South Beach? Would you want him to be the face of this franchise for 2010?
Let's review the red flags we are aware of with Dez Bryant...

Cheating on test?
Deion Sanders lie / suspension
Hanging with Pacman
Bad hamstring / skips combine workouts
Forgot cleats for pro-day
Doesn't finish several drills at pro day
Just shy of illiterate
Late to meetings or games?
Hasn't played in a year
Immaturity
Speaks about himself in the 3rd person

Am I missing anything here? I think the guy was a beast in college, but is he worth the baggage? I think he's there at 12 and we pass. Just too many red flags.

Doctor Phibes
04-01-2010, 03:22 AM
+ he's chosen the same agent as Crabtree. This alone would be reason enough for me to pass at #12. I mean if we draft him and he holds out half the season - well it's not like we weren't warned

KillerJosh373
04-01-2010, 03:55 AM
Definitely all true and are legit reasons to be concerned...but that's still a whole lot of talent to pass on. We've seen guys like Randy Moss and Laverneous Coles come into the league with similar question marks and they've been very successful. Ultimately, Dez is a young man and could very well turn over a new leaf with the opportunity to play pro ball. He might have that drive (illiterate or not) to be a great player. Its really up to the management to figure out what type of person Dez really is. Sometimes young people make a lot of mistakes....that doesn't necessarily mean that they arent worth investing in.

3rdandinches
04-01-2010, 05:35 AM
Yes, Dolphans, it's yet another thread about Dez. The guy has had a few issues. Some major, some minor. Is the this type of player you want to throw millions of dollars at and let loose on South Beach? Would you want him to be the face of this franchise for 2010?
Let's review the red flags we are aware of with Dez Bryant...

Cheating on test?
Deion Sanders lie / suspension
Hanging with Pacman
Bad hamstring / skips combine workouts
Forgot cleats for pro-day
Doesn't finish several drills at pro day
Just shy of illiterate
Late to meetings or games?
Hasn't played in a year
Immaturity
Speaks about himself in the 3rd person

Am I missing anything here? I think the guy was a beast in college, but is he worth the baggage? I think he's there at 12 and we pass. Just too many red flags.

I'm not for or against drafting Dez but this list is pathetic.

Cheating on a test> wow send the kid to jail,
>later on you cry he's shy of illiterate but expect him to be smart enough for university exams

Dien Sanders Lie> he's a kid and made a mistake then on his own clarified to the NCAA of the lie, he didn't get caught lying he volunteered the info, great responsibility, he owned up

Bad hamstring> really?, I guess E.Thomas should be avoided and half of the rest of prospects.

Forgot his cleats> Clearly a red flag, lol!!!

Didn't finish drills> but what about that hamstring?

Shy of illiterate> half you heard three quarters of the league get interviewed

Late for meetings/games> Never heard that from his coaches just speculation.

Hasn't played in a year> so it didn't hurt Ricky, Vick etc....

Immaturity> he's a kid!!!!!

Speaks about himself in 3rd person> He's a immature kid!!!!!

I don't get it, majority of that is nothing but garbage. Let's get a few arrests or maybe a shooting or some drugs and throw up the red flags then but this list to me is weak, real weak.

datruth55
04-01-2010, 09:35 AM
We can put the illiterate stuff and stupid stuff to bed on Bryant. He was 2nd team Academic All-American in the Big 12 in 2008.
http://www.big12sports.com/pdf5/359244.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=10410

52CANES
04-01-2010, 09:52 AM
We can put the illiterate stuff and stupid stuff to bed on Bryant. He was 2nd team Academic All-American in the Big 12 in 2008.
http://www.big12sports.com/pdf5/359244.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=10410


But we're talking about the Big 12 here lol......

I wanna see all these guys who talk **** about Dez's speaking sit in front of a few hundred people with cameras in their faces and see how spectacular their oratory skills are.

Not to mention doing it while they are college aged....

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 09:55 AM
Let's break these up, shall we?

Valid Concerns:

Deion Sanders lie / suspension
(A perception expressed by a select few that he didn't) finish several drills at pro day
Hasn't played in a year
(A perception of) Immaturity

Ridiculously Overblown and Laughable:

Hanging with Pacman
Bad hamstring / skips combine workouts
Forgot cleats for pro-day
Speaks about himself in the 3rd person

Just Plain Untrue and Slanderous:

Cheating on test?
Just shy of illiterate
Late to meetings or games?


Am I missing anything here?

Other than minor things like 'perspective' and 'truth'? No, I think you've covered what you needed to cover.

eric1317
04-01-2010, 10:01 AM
It's sad that for a number of people inorder for your charactor to be called into question you have to break the law, do drugs, or be somehow involved in a homocide. I think this list at the very least show a pattern of poor judgement. It really doesn't matter what I think though. I beleive BP will have a number of unbias charactor references and if he has even the slightest hint that he maybe dealing with another TO type he'll pass.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 10:02 AM
I think it's sad that people make snap judgments about character without bothering to get or even hear the facts, and will take really minor things and treat them like he just murdered a baby. Sad, pathetic, dangerous.

TXFinFan
04-01-2010, 10:07 AM
I think it's sad that people make snap judgments about character without bothering to get or even hear the facts, and will take really minor things and treat them like he just murdered a baby. Sad, pathetic, dangerous.

Well said CK!

eric1317
04-01-2010, 10:08 AM
Who accused dez of murdering babies? I think they were accusing him of being immature and having poor judgement.

BassFin
04-01-2010, 10:16 AM
People were saying a lot of similar things about Vontae Davis last year and he not only played well but stayed out of trouble and has shown he takes his training and learning very seriously. He loves football and it shows.

I feel the same can be said about Bryant. The only thing that scares me about him is his agent. The rest I can live with. If he's there at 1.12, it's hard to pass up on him. He's the best player at his position and it's a major position of need for this team.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 10:22 AM
People were saying a lot of similar things about Vontae Davis last year and he not only played well but stayed out of trouble and has shown he takes his training and learning very seriously. He loves football and it shows.

I feel the same can be said about Bryant. The only thing that scares me about him is his agent. The rest I can live with. If he's there at 1.12, it's hard to pass up on him. He's the best player at his position and it's a major position of need for this team.

I agree, with Vontae Davis it was a giant snowball that formed around one tiny pebble, and I'm sensitive about it because I bought into it as heavily as anyone. I for one, learned from my mistake. The only thing anyone could solldly point to about Vontae was that he sounds a little unintelligent, he has a brother with a reputation, he had some lapses of concentration on the field, and that he got kicked out of one practice because his coach felt he was just playing around and he wanted to send him a message to get serious.

Same thing going on with Dez right now. He can sound a little unintelligent, he has some lapses of focus on the field at times, instead of a brother with a reputation he has an agent that has ONE client with a bad reputation (among dozens that have sterling reputations), and instead of having been kicked out of a practice he lied to NCAA investigators about a non-violation in their heavy handed sting operation to try and send Deion Sanders a message.

That's the pebble. Everything else is just snow.

Don't be worried about the agent. Eugene Parker is one of the most respected agents in the business. His client list includes guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Hines Ward, Emmitt Smith, etc. Bill Parcells and he are good friends according to Chris Mortenson. All of that stuff about the agent has been seriously overblown by people who generally have no perspective on these things.

enduro
04-01-2010, 10:31 AM
I agree, with Vontae Davis it was a giant snowball that formed around one tiny pebble, and I'm sensitive about it because I bought into it as heavily as anyone. I for one, learned from my mistake. The only thing anyone could solldly point to about Vontae was that he sounds a little unintelligent, he has a brother with a reputation, he had some lapses of concentration on the field, and that he got kicked out of one practice because his coach felt he was just playing around and he wanted to send him a message to get serious.

Same thing going on with Dez right now. He can sound a little unintelligent, he has some lapses of focus on the field at times, instead of a brother with a reputation he has an agent that has ONE client with a bad reputation (among dozens that have sterling reputations), and instead of having been kicked out of a practice he lied to NCAA investigators about a non-violation in their heavy handed sting operation to try and send Deion Sanders a message.

That's the pebble. Everything else is just snow.

Don't be worried about the agent. Eugene Parker is one of the most respected agents in the business. His client list includes guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Hines Ward, Emmitt Smith, etc. Bill Parcells and he are good friends according to Chris Mortenson. All of that stuff about the agent has been seriously overblown by people who generally have no perspective on these things.

someone is throwing alot of crap out there about him in an effort to get him to drop out of the top ten. I wonder, hhhhmmmm could it be bill. They send one stinkin scout to his workout. hhhmm showing no interest and making statements that would make you think they don't really have an interest in him. I think miami is playing coy.

datruth55
04-01-2010, 10:37 AM
People were saying a lot of similar things about Vontae Davis last year and he not only played well but stayed out of trouble and has shown he takes his training and learning very seriously. He loves football and it shows.

I feel the same can be said about Bryant. The only thing that scares me about him is his agent. The rest I can live with. If he's there at 1.12, it's hard to pass up on him. He's the best player at his position and it's a major position of need for this team.
Now that's a good argument. Although Vontae had a run in with the law IIRC and Bryant hasn't. Both had/have questions about character.

Bryant's question though are more about responsibility and accountability.

This crap about cheating on a test I had not heard of. Is that a rumor or is that factual? Anyone have a link?

Hanging out with Deion Sanders is not an issue either. Deion has always been a team player...boisterous, but a team player nonetheless. Hanging out with Pacman on the other hand is not good. Pacman is a character risk and a huge red flag. Any association with him looks bad.

Bad hamstring...we don't know if it was bad or not but we'll have to take his word for it. He couldn't workout at the combine because of that but he did do interviews. Skipping his pro day at school a couple of weeks later I think was a bad decision. Guys who skip the combine normally at least workout at the schools pro day.

The cleats....chaulk that one up to responsibility and accountability I mentioned before. Not something that should be overblown though.

Not finishing drills at his workout....that's his fault...again responsibility and accountability. I also blame his stupid agent. I don't care what kind of relationship he has with Parcells the guys an idiot. He kept Crabtree out of training camp and the first 4 or 5 games of the season, basically ruined his rookie season because he thought he should have been picked higher and therefore paid more (hello, idiot, he wasn't) and didn't get him any more money. Now he's really screwing Bryant over by advising him not to workout at his schools pro day, pushing his workout back twice and spreading rumors of running a 4.32 40 raising expectations before the workout....stupid. Not to mention not having him prepared for the workout which also falls on him as well as Bryant.

The illiterate thing I already posted he was 2nd team Academic All-American....give it a rest.

Late to games and meetings. Coach says no, players that played with him say yes. Hard to substantiate but if true then it's responsibility and accountability again. A character issue.

He played 3 games this year...this isn't an issue IMO. Same could be said for a few other draft picks like Jahvid Best who played 6 games this year I think and he missed because of a severe concussion.

Immaturity....there are a lot of immature players in this draft. Same was said of Vontae Davis last year. I suppose the real question will be if we're going to be waiting for him to mature as long as people have waited for T.O. to mature or Randy Moss.

Speaking about himself in the 3rd person....really? Is that a crime? I've not heard him do it and even if he did so what? Junior Seau spoke about himself in the 3rd person....it was weird but not an issue.

gdiaz0358
04-01-2010, 10:40 AM
I am one of those who are begining to worry about this kid...although his talet is like others have said "too good to pass on", all the other stuff worries me. now imagine what this kid could do in south beach with millions of dollars. Can he be handled and guided? YES. Do we want to deal with his BS? That for BP and CO....Could this all be a smoke screen and someone is trying to lower his stock to steal him? Probably yes....we wont know until April 22. I wouldnt hate the pick, but i would hate to pass on him and regret it 2-3 yrs from now.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 10:46 AM
someone is throwing alot of crap out there about him in an effort to get him to drop out of the top ten. I wonder, hhhhmmmm could it be bill. They send one stinkin scout to his workout. hhhmm showing no interest and making statements that would make you think they don't really have an interest in him. I think miami is playing coy.

It could be that Miami is contributing to this stuff, but more likely it's just a media firestorm centered around drama because that's where the entertainment value lies. It happens every year, and especially happens with a guy that everyone knows is talented and that still has high backing from NFL teams. See Vince Young, Andre Smith and Percy Harvin, all of which gave us a LOT more fuel to go on about character than Dez Bryant ever has. But, all of them were also supremely talented and had high backing from within NFL organizations as well as fan bases and so it was always a hot ticket debate...an easy score of web hits every time you say something about the guy.

As for Bryant's workout, Miami sent Schoen and Labadie there. Those are the two highest guys in the college personnel structure aside from Jeff Ireland. They sent significant representation, just not high profile representation.

TrinidadDolfan
04-01-2010, 10:52 AM
I think it's sad that people make snap judgments about character without bothering to get or even hear the facts, and will take really minor things and treat them like he just murdered a baby. Sad, pathetic, dangerous.

O.K, I agree with you.

I will attempt to back you in a corner though....

The draft goes pretty much vanilla, no major suprises....Berry is gone....Dez is there at 12.

You are Ireland...

Do you pull the trigger....or pass?

I pull the trigger.

Would you?

BassFin
04-01-2010, 10:53 AM
Don't be worried about the agent. Eugene Parker is one of the most respected agents in the business. His client list includes guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Hines Ward, Emmitt Smith, etc. Bill Parcells and he are good friends according to Chris Mortenson. All of that stuff about the agent has been seriously overblown by people who generally have no perspective on these things.

I'm only worried about the way Parker handled the Crabtree contract last year. And the situations are frighteningly similar. Talented WRs with "character" issues that get drafted lower than they should based on their talent. If we draft him at 1.12 are we going to have to pay him top 5 money since he has top 5 talent?

The way he handled the Crabtree contract last year left a bad taste in my mouth and I was surprised with Bryant taking him on as an agent.

Now I admit that I am an outsider to it all so I don't know all the details to what went down with Parker and the 49ers, but it was an extremely long hold out considering everyone else in the 1st round had already signed.

All that being said, I still wouldn't pass on Bryant if he's there.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:01 AM
Now that's a good argument. Although Vontae had a run in with the law IIRC and Bryant hasn't. Both had/have questions about character.

Bryant's question though are more about responsibility and accountability.

This crap about cheating on a test I had not heard of. Is that a rumor or is that factual? Anyone have a link?

Hanging out with Deion Sanders is not an issue either. Deion has always been a team player...boisterous, but a team player nonetheless. Hanging out with Pacman on the other hand is not good. Pacman is a character risk and a huge red flag. Any association with him looks bad.

Bad hamstring...we don't know if it was bad or not but we'll have to take his word for it. He couldn't workout at the combine because of that but he did do interviews. Skipping his pro day at school a couple of weeks later I think was a bad decision. Guys who skip the combine normally at least workout at the schools pro day.

The cleats....chaulk that one up to responsibility and accountability I mentioned before. Not something that should be overblown though.

Not finishing drills at his workout....that's his fault...again responsibility and accountability. I also blame his stupid agent. I don't care what kind of relationship he has with Parcells the guys an idiot. He kept Crabtree out of training camp and the first 4 or 5 games of the season, basically ruined his rookie season because he though he should have been picked higher and therefore paid more (hello, idiot, he wasn't) and didn't get him any more money. Now he's really screwing Bryant over by advising him not to workout at his schools pro day, pushing his workout back twice and spreading rumors of running a 4.32 40 raising expectations before the workout....stupid. Not to mention not having him prepared for the workout which also falls on him as well as Bryant.

The illiterate thing I already posted he was 2nd team Academic All-American....give it a rest.

Late to games and meetings. Coach says no, players that played with him say yes. Hard to substantiate but if true then it's responsibility and accountability again. A character issue.

He played 3 games this year...this isn't an issue IMO. Same could be said for a few other draft picks like Jahvid Best who played 6 games this year I think and he missed because of a severe concussion.

Immaturity....there are a lot of immature players in this draft. Same was said of Vontae Davis last year. I suppose the real question will be if we're going to be waiting for him to mature as long as people have waited for T.O. to mature or Randy Moss.

Speaking about himself in the 3rd person....really? Is that a crime? I've not heard him do it and even if he did so what? Junior Seau spoke about himself in the 3rd person....it was weird but not an issue.

1. Never, even once, heard of cheating on a test. It's not factual. Clear it from your mind. This is how the "where there's smoke, there's fire" perceptions come from. Someone on the internet says something once and even if it's completely uncorroborated and non-factual, we remember it. It gets tossed in the pot whether we like it or not because that's how our brains work sometimes.

2. One problem is that language gets screwed up. He doesn't "hang out" with Pacman Jones. Pacman happens to train at the same facility as Dez. Should he avoid him like the plague? Why? I mean, Tony Dungy's a very forgiving person. He will consort with the likes of Mike Vick and others, trying to be a positive influence. So because Dez is willing to forget Pacman's past to the extent that he OK's training in the same gym as him, now he's at strip clubs making it rain with Pacman? I don't get that. It's a non-issue.

3. I just don't get the cleats thing. We're talking about the equivalent of forgetting your lucky hat to a baseball game. How is that a responsibility or accountability issue? Dez specifically stated he doesn't think having those cleats would have helped his performance. It's a non-story that became a story ONLY because of the public's hunger for drama. I guarantee scouts don't even care one iota.

4. He should have knocked those drills out of the park, looked like he was trying his hardest on every one, etc. No excuses there. This is a perception game so it's really hard to weed out who exactly had the perception that he "didn't finish" and what they're basing that on. As Simon pointed out, Mike McCarthy and Tony Pauline raved about Colt McCoy's pro day the other day, McCarthy even saying he thought it was more impressive than Bradford's, and yet others say that McCoy looked only so-so and struggled to drive the ball further than 15-20 yards. A perception game. Still, it's up to Dez to give everyone the right perception one way or another and he didn't do that. Some guys knock out their pro day, some guys don't. But you'll find whether they do or don't does not necessarily correlate very well with pro success.

5. Why is it that Eugene Parker is blamed for Michael Crabtree's decisions? Crabtree and his family were the ones driving the insistance on being paid as the best WR in the draft. He was the one that was super stunned and insulted when DHB was taken over him. Eugene Parker is a respected agent that has represented a ton of respectable clients and as you say is a friend of Bill Parcells.

6. What players that played with him have said that he was late to games and meetings (plural)? Dez says one meeting as a freshman, his coaches corroborated, that's enough for me.

7. The reputation for being a little immature, and the not having played much in 2009...those to me are actually kind of valid concerns. I've heard the immature thing suggested enough even from his staunchest supporters to think there's something to that even though I haven't seen it directly. I agree a lot of players are immature. It doesn't constitute a "red flag" it's more the absence of a potential positive. This is a weird year, so many of the elite prospects didn't play in 2009. But normally sitting out most of your last year would be a concern.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:03 AM
O.K, I agree with you.

I will attempt to back you in a corner though....

The draft goes pretty much vanilla, no major suprises....Berry is gone....Dez is there at 12.

You are Ireland...

Do you pull the trigger....or pass?

I pull the trigger.

Would you?

I wouldn't even hesitate. Dez is one of the top 6 talents in this draft. I have Suh and Bradford clustered together, then McCoy, Berry, Spiller and Bryant. After that, there's a dropoff.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:05 AM
I'm only worried about the way Parker handled the Crabtree contract last year. And the situations are frighteningly similar. Talented WRs with "character" issues that get drafted lower than they should based on their talent. If we draft him at 1.12 are we going to have to pay him top 5 money since he has top 5 talent?

The way he handled the Crabtree contract last year left a bad taste in my mouth and I was surprised with Bryant taking him on as an agent.

Now I admit that I am an outsider to it all so I don't know all the details to what went down with Parker and the 49ers, but it was an extremely long hold out considering everyone else in the 1st round had already signed.

All that being said, I still wouldn't pass on Bryant if he's there.

I understand but what I don't think people think about is that Crabtree and his family were the driving force behind that whole episode. They were the ones that were insulted that DHB went above him in the draft.

The perception that an agent bosses around a player and the player just does whatever the agent says...is often false. The agent ultimately has to listen to what the player has to say on these things and a player can at ANY time whatsoever, call his agent and say "do the deal".

52CANES
04-01-2010, 11:13 AM
Who accused dez of murdering babies? I think they were accusing him of being immature and having poor judgement.


holy ****... are you telling me a college freshman/sophmore/junior is somewhat immature and sometimes shows poor judgement?

OMG break out the twitter accounts, we have breaking news here!

Phin-Phan 66
04-01-2010, 11:15 AM
If you go back and read the post - it says there have been issues - some major, other minor. I didn't create them - I merely laid them all out in one place for us to see.

MadDog 88
04-01-2010, 11:16 AM
Let's break these up, shall we?

Valid Concerns:


Ridiculously Overblown and Laughable:


Just Plain Untrue and Slanderous:




Other than minor things like 'perspective' and 'truth'? No, I think you've covered what you needed to cover.The only one I disagree on is his cleats. Although I don't believe it is a reason to not draft him, it is a concern for his ability to prepare.

If you showed up for a job interview with me unprepared, you better believe that will be part of my evaluation on your ability.

victacious
04-01-2010, 11:17 AM
You are dead on....my friend. Not to bash Phin-Phan 66. If you were under the microscope between 17 and 22 years of age what would be found? Give the man a break!!! It sounds and smells like hating to me. Everyone can't be Tim tebow, and I bet my bottom dollar if the looked at everyone equally. What do I mean:
-Make all their behavioral records transparent
-factor in their up-bringing
-interview behind the the curtain. (don't just ask questions or get quotes from the obvious people)
Think about this .....these kids are generally trying to find their way....this man got caught up for listening to one of the best NFL players of all time, got scared and lied about it. Don't judge him because he lied give him some credit because he came clean and accepted him punishment. (think about what you would have done, at that age)

Very soon the draft will be here and I hope WE draft a player with some nuts to say publicly "If you don't draft me...Everyone will pay.....I'm going to tear this league up" Those kind of statment are usually made by studs, the big man on campus, people who demand greatness, etc. This is what we need.

I was so turned off by Ted Ginn even before the season started... I remember a reporter asked him how has he improved his game and will we see it translate to a better training camp? His reply was, we have some very good Wr's and Im trying to pull a little bit of their game into mine game. My mouth dropped and I was like....I didn't know Jeryy rice or randy moss was on our team!!!! I went from being a fan because of his potential to this dude is not smart. You learn from the best period! SORRY FOR THE RANT BUT....This kids has the goods.

victacious
04-01-2010, 11:18 AM
You are dead on....my friend. Not to bash Phin-Phan 66. If you were under the microscope between 17 and 22 years of age what would be found? Give the man a break!!! It sounds and smells like hating to me. Everyone can't be Tim tebow, and I bet my bottom dollar if the looked at everyone equally. What do I mean:
-Make all their behavioral records transparent
-factor in their up-bringing
-interview behind the the curtain. (don't just ask questions or get quotes from the obvious people)
Think about this .....these kids are generally trying to find their way....this man got caught up for listening to one of the best NFL players of all time, got scared and lied about it. Don't judge him because he lied give him some credit because he came clean and accepted him punishment. (think about what you would have done, at that age)

Very soon the draft will be here and I hope WE draft a player with some nuts to say publicly "If you don't draft me...Everyone will pay.....I'm going to tear this league up" Those kind of statment are usually made by studs, the big man on campus, people who demand greatness, etc. This is what we need.

I was so turned off by Ted Ginn even before the season started... I remember a reporter asked him how has he improved his game and will we see it translate to a better training camp? His reply was, we have some very good Wr's and Im trying to pull a little bit of their game into mine game. My mouth dropped and I was like....I didn't know Jeryy rice or randy moss was on our team!!!! I went from being a fan because of his potential to this dude is not smart. You learn from the best period! SORRY FOR THE RANT BUT....This kids has the goods.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:20 AM
The only one I disagree on is his cleats. Although I don't believe it is a reason to not draft him, it is a concern for his ability to prepare.

If you showed up for a job interview with me unprepared, you better believe that will be part of my evaluation on your ability.

It's the equivalent of showing up to a baseball game without your lucky hat. He brought six pairs of cleats. If you watch the NFL Network video, he had a set of cleats for every kind of drill he was going to do. He showed up prepared, he just forgot his binky. That is NOT an 'unprepared' thing.

BassFin
04-01-2010, 11:21 AM
I understand but what I don't think people think about is that Crabtree and his family were the driving force behind that whole episode. They were the ones that were insulted that DHB went above him in the draft.

The perception that an agent bosses around a player and the player just does whatever the agent says...is often false. The agent ultimately has to listen to what the player has to say on these things and a player can at ANY time whatsoever, call his agent and say "do the deal".

I just can't put it all on Crabtree. Parker has been doing this for over 20 years and he has a law degree. Any good lawyer has to be able to convince his client when it's time to hold 'em and when it's time to fold 'em. That's what they are paid for.

Parker should've told him "Listen son, I've been doing this since you were in diapers and I've represented some of the best players to ever suit up in the NFL. I'm one of the most influential minorities in sports. I know you think you should've been taken higher and I agree but the fact is you weren't. All you're doing now is tarnishing my reputation and making yourself look like a clown! Sign the contract and play your butt off. The next contract you sign will be the big money one anyway. "

I'm sure most players drafted thinks they should've gone higher and have family who want to be involved in the contract details. But it's been a long time since I've seen one played out like the Crabtree situation was. Parker deserves some of that blame.

MadDog 88
04-01-2010, 11:22 AM
+ he's chosen the same agent as Crabtree. This alone would be reason enough for me to pass at #12. I mean if we draft him and he holds out half the season - well it's not like we weren't warned

Crabtree's cousin, who has no financial background, was the problem. Crabtree listened to him over his agent.

I don't see this as a problem.

victacious
04-01-2010, 11:22 AM
I agree CK, and this is why we can't score in bunches ....a lack of top teir talent. Some one that's going to scare the mess of players, coaches, etc.

Phin-Phan 66
04-01-2010, 11:22 AM
once again - I didnt make these up - I merely laid them out for all to see and consider.

Maybe he's the pick - maybe he's not, but when hiring a guy for millions of dollars - these have to be considered.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:25 AM
Parker has been doing this for over 20 years and he has a law degree.

Which is precisely WHY I think we should chalk this one up to Crabtree being unreasonable.


Any good lawyer has to be able to convince his client when it's time to hold 'em and when it's time to fold 'em. That's what they are paid for.

Parker should've told him "Listen son, I've been doing this since you were in diapers and I've represented some of the best players to ever suit up in the NFL. I'm one of the most influential minorities in sports. I know you think you should've been taken higher and I agree but the fact is you weren't. All you're doing now is tarnishing my reputation and making yourself look like a clown! Sign the contract and play your butt off. The next contract you sign will be the big money one anyway. "

I'm sure most players drafted thinks they should've gone higher and have family who want to be involved in the contract details. But it's been a long time since I've seen one played out like the Crabtree situation was. Parker deserves some of that blame.

Parker could tell Crab whatever he wants, if Crab and his family aren't going for it then Parker's only choices are to ditch Crabtree, losing a million dollars of revenue for Eugene Parker's organization, and that move would be a veritable disaster for his future business prospects recruiting players...or just go with the player's wishes, keep working on him, and hope for the best.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:26 AM
once again - I didnt make these up - I merely laid them out for all to see and consider.

Maybe he's the pick - maybe he's not, but when hiring a guy for millions of dollars - these have to be considered.

You're merely laying out things that are blatantly false and trying to absolve yourself of responsibility. That's what you're doing.

datruth55
04-01-2010, 11:26 AM
1. Never, even once, heard of cheating on a test. It's not factual. Clear it from your mind. This is how the "where there's smoke, there's fire" perceptions come from. Someone on the internet says something once and even if it's completely uncorroborated and non-factual, we remember it. It gets tossed in the pot whether we like it or not because that's how our brains work sometimes.

That's what I thought.


2. One problem is that language gets screwed up. He doesn't "hang out" with Pacman Jones. Pacman happens to train at the same facility as Dez. Should he avoid him like the plague? Why? I mean, Tony Dungy's a very forgiving person. He will consort with the likes of Mike Vick and others, trying to be a positive influence. So because Dez is willing to forget Pacman's past to the extent that he OK's training in the same gym as him, now he's at strip clubs making it rain with Pacman? I don't get that. It's a non-issue.

Good info. Training at the same facility is not the same as hanging out.

Tony Dungy hanging with Vick is not a good comparison though. Dungy built his character in this league for 10+ years and I think he approached Goodell with the idea of being a "mentor" to Vick prior to his reinstatement. Because of Dungy's reputation he's having a positive effect on Vick's character rather than the other way around.


3. I just don't get the cleats thing. We're talking about the equivalent of forgetting your lucky hat to a baseball game. How is that a responsibility or accountability issue? Dez specifically stated he doesn't think having those cleats would have helped his performance. It's a non-story that became a story ONLY because of the public's hunger for drama. I guarantee scouts don't even care one iota.

You don't run with your hat on your feet, lol. I think making sure you have everything you need for what is basically a job interview is being responsible. You don't forget your suit before showing up to an interview. It's a simple thing, get your ducks in a row. Not a big deal though but it may have more to do with maturity than anything else.


4. He should have knocked those drills out of the park, looked like he was trying his hardest on every one, etc. No excuses there. This is a perception game so it's really hard to weed out who exactly had the perception that he "didn't finish" and what they're basing that on. As Simon pointed out, Mike McCarthy and Tony Pauline raved about Colt McCoy's pro day the other day, McCarthy even saying he thought it was more impressive than Bradford's, and yet others say that McCoy looked only so-so and struggled to drive the ball further than 15-20 yards. A perception game. Still, it's up to Dez to give everyone the right perception one way or another and he didn't do that. Some guys knock out their pro day, some guys don't. But you'll find whether they do or don't does not necessarily correlate very well with pro success.

Agree, and good points.


5. Why is it that Eugene Parker is blamed for Michael Crabtree's decisions? Crabtree and his family were the ones driving the insistance on being paid as the best WR in the draft. He was the one that was super stunned and insulted when DHB was taken over him. Eugene Parker is a respected agent that has represented a ton of respectable clients and as you say is a friend of Bill Parcells.

As his agent he needs to inform his client with the most information possible to make a good decision. Whether Crabtree and his family thought they should have been paid more or not Parker should have given him enough info, historical fact and any other tool necessary to advise against holding out for top 5 or 7 money when he was picked 10th. That decision will never make sense to me.


6. What players that played with him have said that he was late to games and meetings (plural)? Dez says one meeting as a freshman, his coaches corroborated, that's enough for me.

Heard it on NFL Radio around the time the combine was getting ready to happen. Think it was Pat Kirwan that reported it. Could have been just the one meeting you're talking about. Like I said, not enough evidence to substantiate it for me so I can't really hold it against him or so say that it's an issue.


7. The reputation for being a little immature, and the not having played much in 2009...those to me are actually kind of valid concerns. I've heard the immature thing suggested enough even from his staunchest supporters to think there's something to that even though I haven't seen it directly. I agree a lot of players are immature. It doesn't constitute a "red flag" it's more the absence of a potential positive. This is a weird year, so many of the elite prospects didn't play in 2009. But normally sitting out most of your last year would be a concern.
I would be concerned if he had missed the entire season because of injury but he was healthy. I kind of see it as a positive because he has less wear and tear on his body because of missing the majority of the season. He's probably been playing football since pop warner, he's not going to forget how to play. He may be rusty at first but nothing a few mini camps and training camp won't resolve IMO.

MadDog 88
04-01-2010, 11:27 AM
I wouldn't even hesitate. Dez is one of the top 6 talents in this draft. I have Suh and Bradford clustered together, then McCoy, Berry, Spiller and Bryant. After that, there's a dropoff.
Even over SOLB? That has to be the priority but do you think there is enough talent to get a solid SOLB and Safety in rounds 2 and 3 if they go that route?

Phin-Phan 66
04-01-2010, 11:28 AM
I'm not backing off of any of them - they have all been out there - I just didn't see the entire list out there anywhere and when I started looking at them I thought it would be nice to see them all laid out in one place.
I stand by my post.

BassFin
04-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Which is precisely WHY I think we should chalk this one up to Crabtree being unreasonable.



Parker could tell Crab whatever he wants, if Crab and his family aren't going for it then Parker's only choices are to ditch Crabtree, losing a million dollars of revenue for Eugene Parker's organization, and that move would be a veritable disaster for his future business prospects recruiting players...or just go with the player's wishes, keep working on him, and hope for the best.

I hope we draft Bryant and that you're right on all accounts. Dude is gonna be a beast and if he falls to the Jets or Patriots and they nab him I'm going to puke like Linda Blair in the Exorcist!

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:35 AM
You don't run with your hat on your feet, lol. I think making sure you have everything you need for what is basically a job interview is being responsible. You don't forget your suit before showing up to an interview. It's a simple thing, get your ducks in a row. Not a big deal though but it may have more to do with maturity than anything else.

He had everything he needed though. He didn't run barefoot. He had a different set of cleats set up for every type of drill. If you watch the video he changed his cleats at least four times. He forgot his 'binky'. Yes, it is the equivalent of forgetting your lucky hat. Or maybe if you're hung up on a hat not being function, your lucky batting gloves. Like forgetting your lucky batting gloves but having six other pairs that are just as good. That's 'unprepared'? Color me unconcerned.


As his agent he needs to inform his client with the most information possible to make a good decision. Whether Crabtree and his family thought they should have been paid more or not Parker should have given him enough info, historical fact and any other tool necessary to advise against holding out for top 5 or 7 money when he was picked 10th. That decision will never make sense to me.

And the decision that will never make any sense to you, was Michael Crabtree's decision, not Eugene Parker's. As Ted says, Crab has family chewing his ear off and he listened to them instead of Parker. At that point Parker's only choice would have been to ditch Michael which would have cost his organization a million dollars of revenue, and REALLY hurt his reputation in recruiting players.


I would be concerned if he had missed the entire season because of injury but he was healthy. I kind of see it as a positive because he has less wear and tear on his body because of missing the majority of the season. He's probably been playing football since pop warner, he's not going to forget how to play. He may be rusty at first but nothing a few mini camps and training camp won't resolve IMO.

I dunno, I'm old school on the layoff thing. Layoffs just aren't conducive to being sound. I'm not saying he's going to forget how. It's just something of small concern.

52CANES
04-01-2010, 11:38 AM
The only one I disagree on is his cleats. Although I don't believe it is a reason to not draft him, it is a concern for his ability to prepare.

If you showed up for a job interview with me unprepared, you better believe that will be part of my evaluation on your ability.

Well put yourself at ease, because NFL teams employ people to make sure his cleats will be in his locker.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:38 AM
Even over SOLB? That has to be the priority but do you think there is enough talent to get a solid SOLB and Safety in rounds 2 and 3 if they go that route?

I think this is a fairly deep OLB class and Safety class, yeah.

I like Brandon Graham a lot but you have to keep in mind there's a layer of question mark over any guy like Graham or Derrick Morgan that just isn't there for a guy like Dez Bryant. Dez Bryant would be playing the same position he's always played. Brandon Graham and Derrick Morgan would be moving to a new position. Although to be fair to Graham, he played the linebacker position for 11 years before moving to DE for the Wolverines for 4 years.

ckparrothead
04-01-2010, 11:40 AM
I'm not backing off of any of them - they have all been out there - I just didn't see the entire list out there anywhere and when I started looking at them I thought it would be nice to see them all laid out in one place.
I stand by my post.

Define "out there" because some of them sure as hell look new and original, layered with innuendo and commentary coming straight from you and nobody else.

MadDog 88
04-01-2010, 11:40 AM
Well put yourself at ease, because NFL teams employ people to make sure his cleats will be in his locker.:lol:

datruth55
04-01-2010, 11:41 AM
He had everything he needed though. He didn't run barefoot. He had a different set of cleats set up for every type of drill. If you watch the video he changed his cleats at least four times. He forgot his 'binky'. Yes, it is the equivalent of forgetting your lucky hat. Or maybe if you're hung up on a hat not being function, your lucky batting gloves. Like forgetting your lucky batting gloves but having six other pairs that are just as good. That's 'unprepared'? Color me unconcerned.
Point taken.



And the decision that will never make any sense to you, was Michael Crabtree's decision, not Eugene Parker's. As Ted says, Crab has family chewing his ear off and he listened to them instead of Parker. At that point Parker's only choice would have been to ditch Michael which would have cost his organization a million dollars of revenue, and REALLY hurt his reputation in recruiting players.
Agree, at that point Parker is caught between a rock and a hard place but this is two high profile WRs in a row he's having some issues with. He has to bare some responsibility.


I dunno, I'm old school on the layoff thing. Layoffs just aren't conducive to being sound. I'm not saying he's going to forget how. It's just something of small concern.
It's a small concern but not a deal killer. Receivers from spread offenses take time to adjust to the NFL anyway.

TrinidadDolfan
04-01-2010, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't even hesitate. Dez is one of the top 6 talents in this draft. I have Suh and Bradford clustered together, then McCoy, Berry, Spiller and Bryant. After that, there's a dropoff.

I agree. Pull that trigger

TrinidadDolfan
04-01-2010, 11:59 AM
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