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View Full Version : MERGED: Its Over, Rams resign Atogwe



FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 01:10 PM
Updating the last story, the St. Louis Rams have re-signed free safety Oshiomogho Atogwe to multi-year contract. More to come on this developing story.

http://tinyurl.com/2btewn5

It is Clemons or bust.

bdmagnum
06-23-2010, 01:11 PM
TheRedzoneorg (http://twitter.com/TheRedzoneorg)

Rams re-sign Atogwe to multi-year deal http://tinyurl.com/2btewn5 (http://tinyurl.com/2btewn5)

hooshoops
06-23-2010, 01:12 PM
ha ha...much ado about nothing

chris clemons you better be MUCH IMPROVED

MadDog 88
06-23-2010, 01:13 PM
Thank god this is finally over.

bdmagnum
06-23-2010, 01:13 PM
Ahhh, you beat me to it by one minute. Mods, can you merge?

burger13
06-23-2010, 01:13 PM
...I'll believe it when Schefter tweets it!!!


;)

MadDog 88
06-23-2010, 01:13 PM
Thank god this is finally over

Mile High Fin
06-23-2010, 01:14 PM
Clemons will blossom.......

ckparrothead
06-23-2010, 01:16 PM
Clemons or Culver or bust. Can't forget Culver.

FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 01:18 PM
Clemons or Culver or bust. Can't forget Culver.

Agreed he has shown he can play when given the opportunity

madmic21
06-23-2010, 01:19 PM
I am kind of glad. We spent plenty of money this offseason on top tier players. Good teams that stay good through several years must get production from Clemons type players. If these players don't effectively contribute we don't have a chance of sustaining a long term run of being competitive. Learn from the colts, pats, ravens, models. They work. And ignore the Skins and Jests models because they don't.

hooshoops
06-23-2010, 01:20 PM
i don't know that culver has the speed to play an every down effective center field...but i won't put it past him either...he's a solid football player and a pretty sure tackler

Travis34
06-23-2010, 01:22 PM
I'm glad it's over. Hopefully this will be a sight we see often:

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2010/06/chris_clemons-1.jpg

madmic21
06-23-2010, 01:23 PM
Also it is nice to see him go to a non-contender. I would have been a little upset if someone like the Cowgirls or some team of that caliber.

hooshoops
06-23-2010, 01:24 PM
i'd like to know what the money was...if it was $5 mil or less per i think we should have been more aggressive...oh well

madmic21
06-23-2010, 01:27 PM
Can we please merge this with the other thread?

Prime
06-23-2010, 01:28 PM
As most of us has been saying all along, it was a long shot of him signing here from the start. You guys gotta stop overhyping guys when they become available. Its crazy. It should say something that no team was really interested in him while he was on the market for 2 weeks.

bdmagnum
06-23-2010, 01:29 PM
According to LaCanfora:


JasonLaCanfora (http://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora) OJ Atogwe's deal with the Rams is for 5 yrs. More details to come on NFL.com and NFL Network

hooshoops
06-23-2010, 01:31 PM
i'm gonna take a shot and say its at least $30 mil with at least $12 mil guaranteed

josekareh
06-23-2010, 01:32 PM
it's more like Clemons...

RobertHorry
06-23-2010, 01:35 PM
Best news I have heard since we traded for Brandon Marshall.

jree
06-23-2010, 01:39 PM
...I'll believe it when Schefter tweets it!!!


;)

I thought finatic was Schefter ;)

bdmagnum
06-23-2010, 01:40 PM
...I'll believe it when Schefter tweets it!!!


;)

Adam_Schefter (http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter)
Rams signed safety Oshiomogho Atogwe to a multi-year deal.

:)

bdmagnum
06-23-2010, 01:42 PM
I thought finatic was Schefter ;)

If not, they might be related :)

clownfish
06-23-2010, 01:50 PM
I'm so happy. Yet another unfounded rumor laid to rest. Now we can talk about players that are on the Miami Dolphins.

FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 01:53 PM
I'm so happy. Yet another unfounded rumor laid to rest. Now we can talk about players that are on the Miami Dolphins.

We have never stopped talking about players that are Fins, Atogwe was a possibility, now that he is not you won't hear his name again.

DphinBillkiller
06-23-2010, 01:53 PM
The Dolphins weren't going to pay him that kind of money anyhow.
Now the Atogwe rumors can fade away into the dust.

damanref10
06-23-2010, 01:56 PM
Good news is that the "saga" is finally over. Bad news, we are still unproven at FS. Hoping for the best.......

FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 02:15 PM
StullySTL When asked about rumors of hernia, OJ said there were some other "complications" he dealt w this offseason...but healthy now

The reason I believe a lot of teams did not show interest. Like I told you guys in the past OJ had major health concerns. Besides an apparent shoulder and hernia injury, it sounds like he was seriously banged up.

eger
06-23-2010, 02:20 PM
i'd like to know what the money was...if it was $5 mil or less per i think we should have been more aggressive...oh well

Easy to say when it's not your $$$..lol

Asicswrg85
06-23-2010, 03:04 PM
Clemons better step it up and command that secondary!!!

RobertHorry
06-23-2010, 03:14 PM
The reason I believe a lot of teams did not show interest. Like I told you guys in the past OJ had major health concerns. Besides an apparent shoulder and hernia injury, it sounds like he was seriously banged up.


You were downplaying every injury he had and was possibly his biggest advocate for signing him here.

X-Pacolypse
06-23-2010, 03:16 PM
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bF5bXSJMQl0AM8WjzbkF/SIG=12bial0r8/EXP=1277406939/**http%3a//img17.imageshack.us/img17/8784/redstripeugly.jpg


Hooray Chris Clemons!

FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 03:18 PM
You were downplaying every injury he had and was possibly his biggest advocate for signing him here.

I was not downplaying his injuries, yes I wanted him to sign, but I always said he had a shoulder injury and an apparent sports hernia. With that be said, I also said that as bad as I wanted Atogwe, I would also love to see our guys step up.

ckparrothead
06-23-2010, 03:23 PM
I'm trying to keep my mouth shut but what's wrong with just taking the hit for backing the wrong horse? Everyone's allowed to be wrong.

FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 03:27 PM
I'm trying to keep my mouth shut but what's wrong with just taking the hit for backing the wrong horse? Everyone's allowed to be wrong.

CK I admit I was wrong that Atogwe was coming to Miami, and me being a fan of his play probably had to do with some of my many post. But I was told by various sources that Miami was indeed interested and that it came down to how much they were willing to spend for him.

Vaark
06-23-2010, 03:42 PM
CK I admit I was wrong that Atogwe was coming to Miami, and me being a fan of his play probably had to do with some of my many post. But I was told by various sources that Miami was indeed interested and that it came down to how much they were willing to spend for him.

Could well have been accurate... but if he was angling for a 5-year contract elsewhere, the FO drew a definite line in the sand to the extent they'd commit to someone turning 29, not 25 or 26 coming off a season-ending injury. For all we know the boys upstairs might well have offered him a competitive 1-2 year contract that got rejected.

PhinzN703
06-23-2010, 04:19 PM
As most of us has been saying all along, it was a long shot of him signing here from the start. You guys gotta stop overhyping guys when they become available. Its crazy. It should say something that no team was really interested in him while he was on the market for 2 weeks.

I'll speak for the rest of the board on this one. I agree with you that when a guy is available you always see a post wanting to get him. I understand that part.

But Atogwe was mentioned as a potential fit for the Phins by all sorts of other media outlets. It was different with this guy.

Kdawg954
06-23-2010, 04:36 PM
We already spent big bread for Marshall and Dansby . . . we weren't gonna drop the bread for this guy. Were we interested . . . YES, but not at the price that St. Louis gave him. We need one of the youngsters to step up at FS or we are gonna bring a vet in before camp to add to the competition.

I am perfectly fine with that.

hooshoops
06-23-2010, 04:42 PM
lets hope we're all perfectly fine with it come week 6

NCFINFAN13
06-23-2010, 05:17 PM
Well I'm glad that's over with.

I wanted him in Miami but in the end, due to injuries and price I'm sure the FO did the right thing when assessing the risks/rewards of signing him. I'm hopeful Clemmons and/or Culver are up to the task.

BobDole
06-23-2010, 06:44 PM
errrrrr. i'm glad the staff thinks that clemons or culver could be the answer at FS - but i'm not sure i agree. clemons showed glimpses last year - but he was still a ways off if you ask me. culver is okay - doesn't do anything great or terrible - solid depth IMO. now i get to worry OLB and FS on D next year. oh joy.

FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 06:59 PM
JasonLaCanfora
OJ Atogwe's deal with the Rams worth a max of $32M over 5 years. We will be chatting about it ahead on NFL Total Access.

Makes perfect sense now, no way I wanted us to spend that much. Especially after all the reviews that came out from CK & PFF. Everyone admits Atogwe is good, but not for that much. That type of money needs to be saved for some of our key guys like Henne, Bess & Carpenter.

hooshoops
06-23-2010, 07:14 PM
Makes perfect sense now, no way I wanted us to spend that much. Especially after all the reviews that came out from CK & PFF. Everyone admits Atogwe is good, but not for that much. That type of money needs to be saved for some of our key guys like Henne, Bess & Carpenter.

ha ha...stick to the breaking news bro...if we paid kicker dan carpenter $32 mil over 5 years or any kicker for that matter anything in that stratosphere i would straight revolt...

for real...

FinAtic8480
06-23-2010, 10:55 PM
A few weeks ago Free Safety OJ Atogwe became an unrestricted free agent, and Miami were supposedly serious players to land his services. Clearly the asking price was too high, and Atogwe ended up resigning with the Rams. That was Miami's last opportunity to acquire a proven starter at the FS position. Clearly Miami is high on Clemons and he needs to prove them right by having a big coming out party in just his second season in the NFL.

Earlier in the Off Season, Miami tried, and failed, to acquire two big time players in Ryan Clark and Antrel Rolle. While they never made a very big push for Rolle, they did make a strong push for Clark. Ultimately Rolle went to NY and Clark resigned with Pittsburgh, (a sucker punch right to the gonads for Jeff Ireland and the rest of the front office). Then Miami had some organized team activities; practices in after which everyone raved about Chris Clemons. The Dolphins then did draft a safety in April, but it was just a 5th round pick in Reshad Jones who, while I like a lot and I think has a bright future in the NFL, is better suited for Strong Safety. Miami passed on several very good prospects in rounds 2 and 3 leaving everybody scratching their heads.

Passing on Atogwe was the icing on the cake for me. Clearly the Dolphins think Clemons is ready to step up to the plate, and I'm excited about having his speed, range, ball skills and no-regard-for-human-life type attitude out in center field.



http://www.phinfever.com/newsite/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=478

Gofish1331
06-23-2010, 11:06 PM
I think he's still available!


Jarrad Page | #44 | FS Kansas City

Height: 6-0 Weight: 225 Age: 25
Born: 10/19/1984 Oakland , CA
College: UCLA
Experience: 5th season

CANDolphan
06-24-2010, 12:37 AM
So much for those sources I see

hemidemon
06-24-2010, 12:59 AM
Finally over! It took way too long. Talk about a worn out topic.

JFoxx
06-24-2010, 01:38 PM
Whether it was the additional injury or just that they made it clear he was interested in signing with the Rams first, interesting that nobody made a play for him at all. Not an invite to come down for a physical, talks or even a tour. So whether the injury, price or hometown preference, he likely wasn't going anywhere other than St. Louis the whole time. Hopefully our FO knows what they are doing here and their confidence in the current FS options is going to be good enough.

34miami23
06-24-2010, 01:53 PM
What? no Atgowe?????


http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2010/06/ohnowesuckagain-1.jpg


haha just kidding ... Let's go Clemons / Culver / Jones!

Lord Of Miami
06-24-2010, 02:37 PM
I bet FinAtic8480 has kld-naped him and is making him play out his make believe contract he has with the Miami Dolphins in his Basement on Madden.

Has anyone even heard from Atgowe in the pass 24 hours.............................? I haven't, nuff said.

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 02:59 PM
LOL. We all have our binkies I guess. ;)

Incidentally this Clemons/Culver stuff is starting to remind me of the Merling/Starks situation a year ago.

Back then even though it was clear (to me) that Randy Starks was the best Defensive End on the roster in 2008, it seemed like eeeeeeeeeeveryone was talking about Phil Merling. I remember a position breakdown article I think written by the Miami Herald that basically talked about Langford and Merling and didn't mention Randy Starks even once. I said back then, that's just plain stupid. You can't talk about the DE position and not talk about Randy Starks. Of course that looks silly now but back then it was common. I remember one poster argued with me to the bone that based on Randy Starks' stat sheet, it was impossible for him to continue to get better and have a breakout year. Impossible. Otherwise he'd have already done it. I don't even remember who that was but whoever he is that looks pretty stupid now I'm sure.

Anyway, seems like the same thing is going on here. Everything is about Chris Clemons. But a year ago, the best safety not named Yeremiah Bell, was Tyrone Culver...not Chris Clemons. I realize that Clemons took all the starting reps at Mini Camp and OTAs but that's not unlike Merling taking the reps with the 1's at the same time a year ago. Clemons is obviously the guy that this coaching staff would LIKE to see step up and take over the job. Why? Obvious, he's like 205 lbs, built solid, and somehow he has 4.35 speed. If you can rep up his mental game you have one heck of a safety. Unfortunately in the NFL, that's a monumental "IF". The guy whose mental game is already repped up and who might continue to get even better in that regard, is Tyrone Culver. I realize he's not that fast. But how fast is Jairus Byrd? He's slow enough to make Tyrone Culver look fast.

I did a speed study on a few secondaries and I found some interesting results. Look at the Jets. Is Jim Leonhard fast? No, he's a 4.60 guy. Is Donovan Warren? No way. What about Eric Smith? Not unless you call a Combine 4.63 fast. Kerry Rhodes was no better than a 4.56 at the Combine back in 2005. And James Ihedigbo...don't even get me started. He ran a 4.77 at his Pro Day. He took over 100 snaps with the Jets last year. This was the #1 defense in football, and they didn't have any speed in their safeties. They didn't need it. Sure, they had Darrelle Revis, but their other corners were the torchable Lito Sheppard and the slow Dwight Lowery.

What matters is the anticipation and getting everyone lined up, being in the right spot and then responding when you have your feet put to the fire. I don't trust Chris Clemons to do any of that yet, not until I see it. But I think I could trust Tyrone Culver to do it. Even if he did run a 4.62 in the 40 yard dash.

RobertHorry
06-24-2010, 03:07 PM
LOL. We all have our binkies I guess. ;)

Incidentally this Clemons/Culver stuff is starting to remind me of the Merling/Starks situation a year ago.

Back then even though it was clear (to me) that Randy Starks was the best Defensive End on the roster in 2008, it seemed like eeeeeeeeeeveryone was talking about Phil Merling. I remember a position breakdown article I think written by the Miami Herald that basically talked about Langford and Merling and didn't mention Randy Starks even once. I said back then, that's just plain stupid. You can't talk about the DE position and not talk about Randy Starks. Of course that looks silly now but back then it was common. I remember one poster argued with me to the bone that based on Randy Starks' stat sheet, it was impossible for him to continue to get better and have a breakout year. Impossible. Otherwise he'd have already done it. I don't even remember who that was but whoever he is that looks pretty stupid now I'm sure.

Anyway, seems like the same thing is going on here. Everything is about Chris Clemons. But a year ago, the best safety not named Yeremiah Bell, was Tyrone Culver...not Chris Clemons. I realize that Clemons took all the starting reps at Mini Camp and OTAs but that's not unlike Merling taking the reps with the 1's at the same time a year ago. Clemons is obviously the guy that this coaching staff would LIKE to see step up and take over the job. Why? Obvious, he's like 205 lbs, built solid, and somehow he has 4.35 speed. If you can rep up his mental game you have one heck of a safety. Unfortunately in the NFL, that's a monumental "IF". The guy whose mental game is already repped up and who might continue to get even better in that regard, is Tyrone Culver. I realize he's not that fast. But how fast is Jairus Byrd? He's slow enough to make Tyrone Culver look fast.

I did a speed study on a few secondaries and I found some interesting results. Look at the Jets. Is Jim Leonhard fast? No, he's a 4.60 guy. Is Donovan Warren? No way. What about Eric Smith? Not unless you call a Combine 4.63 fast. Kerry Rhodes was no better than a 4.56 at the Combine back in 2005. And James Ihedigbo...don't even get me started. He ran a 4.77 at his Pro Day. He took over 100 snaps with the Jets last year. This was the #1 defense in football, and they didn't have any speed in their safeties. They didn't need it. Sure, they had Darrelle Revis, but their other corners were the torchable Lito Sheppard and the slow Dwight Lowery.

What matters is the anticipation and getting everyone lined up, being in the right spot and then responding when you have your feet put to the fire. I don't trust Chris Clemons to do any of that yet, not until I see it. But I think I could trust Tyrone Culver to do it. Even if he did run a 4.62 in the 40 yard dash.

There is only one thing I am worried about with Culver, and that is his range. His range when he plays centerfielder is not the best, but not bad by any means. Can he float middle and get to the sidelines in time?

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 03:08 PM
Ty Culver is 6'1" and he had almost a 40 inch vertical, almost an 11 foot broad jump. The guy is explosive. Running a 4.62 is not really all that uncommon for safeties in the NFL.

I just don't see why this has to be about Clemons.

The only reason Culver's not taking reps with the 1's right now is because they're still using nickel packages with Yeremiah Bell coming up and Culver coming onto the field. If Tyrone were to take reps with the 1's in addition to that, there would be an imbalance in the reps. Though, in camp, I do expect at some point they'll try Clemons in Culver's nickel position and Culver in Clemons' starting position.

FinAtic8480
06-24-2010, 03:36 PM
Ty Culver is 6'1" and he had almost a 40 inch vertical, almost an 11 foot broad jump. The guy is explosive. Running a 4.62 is not really all that uncommon for safeties in the NFL.

I just don't see why this has to be about Clemons.

The only reason Culver's not taking reps with the 1's right now is because they're still using nickel packages with Yeremiah Bell coming up and Culver coming onto the field. If Tyrone were to take reps with the 1's in addition to that, there would be an imbalance in the reps. Though, in camp, I do expect at some point they'll try Clemons in Culver's nickel position and Culver in Clemons' starting position.

Great stuff as always you are the best at what you do.

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 04:00 PM
There is only one thing I am worried about with Culver, and that is his range. His range when he plays centerfielder is not the best, but not bad by any means. Can he float middle and get to the sidelines in time?

The fast guys can't do that either unless they anticipate the pass first

Let's take a look at some free safeties.

Jets: Kerry Rhodes - 4.56
Bills: Jairus Byrd - 4.68
Patriots: Brandon Meriweather - 4.47
Dolphins: Gibril Wilson - 4.47
Ravens: Ed Reed - 4.57
Bengals: Chris Crocker - 4.55
Browns: Brodney Pool - 4.52
Steelers: Ryan Clark - 4.48
Texans: Eugene Wilson / Dominique Barber - 4.48 / 4.68
Colts: Antoine Bethea - 4.39
Jaguars: Reggie Nelson - 4.48
Titans: Michael Griffen - 4.45
Broncos: Renaldo Hill - 4.68
Chiefs: Jarrad Page - 4.63
Raiders: Michael Huff - 4.34
Chargers: Eric Weddle - 4.48
Cowboys: Ken Hamlin - 4.61
Giants: Aaron Rouse / CC Brown - 4.58 / 4.52
Eagles: Sean Jones / Macho Harris - 4.63 / 4.68
Redskins: LaRon Landry - 4.35
Bears: Danieal Manning / Kevin Payne - 4.48 / 4.60
Lions: Louis Delmas - 4.52
Packers: Nick Collins - 4.36
Vikings: Madieu Williams - 4.48
Falcons: Thomas DeCoud - 4.50
Panthers: Charles Godfrey - 4.43
Saints: Darren Sharper - Unknown but certainly in the 4.6 range at this age
Buccaneers: Tanard Jackson - 4.52
Cardinals: Antrel Rolle - 4.48
49ers: Dashon Goldson - 4.60
Seahawks: Jordan Babineaux - Unknown
Rams: O.J. Atogwe - 4.52

The average there is 4.52, and Tyrone Culver is a 4.62. His presence would have given the Dolphins the 5th slowest Free Safety position in the league last year. But, how much does that matter? The defenses with equivalent speed free safeties (guys that ran worse than 4.58 in the 40 yard dash) include the Saints, 49ers, Cowboys, Bills, Eagles and Broncos. The only defense that was really bad and also had a slow free safety was the Chiefs.

What it suggests to me is that it wouldn't be a huge problem. Plenty of those names at free safety have great speed but are bigger liabilities overall.

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 04:06 PM
yeah ck but with culvers speed he's gonna have to show some pretty good instincts and the ability to read the play in front of him...i'd be more keen on culver at free safety (not that i'm not ok with the idea anyways) if culver on all those passing downs he played last year made more plays on the ball...

but i think he's a solid open field tackler and will be in the right position especially against the run when called to give run support...it's the plays on the ball in the air that i would like to see more of...

dolpns13
06-24-2010, 04:06 PM
Thank god its over... end all the pointless speculation on a player we wouldnt have picked up

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 04:15 PM
you can add malcolm jenkins to that list...he's slow as heck and the saints have moved him to fs...i figured that would happen in not too long

i thought louis delmas played ss in detroit....huh

edit: i think malcolm was being moved to fs if sharper left in free agency so maybe they're waiting on the free safety move with jenkins now...

RobertHorry
06-24-2010, 04:18 PM
yeah ck but with culvers speed he's gonna have to show some pretty good instincts and the ability to read the play in front of him...i'd be more keen on culver at free safety (not that i'm not ok with the idea anyways) if culver on all those passing downs he played last year made more plays on the ball...

but i think he's a solid open field tackler and will be in the right position especially against the run when called to give run support...it's the plays on the ball in the air that i would like to see more of...

Culver shows good instincts. Thats not his problem at all. He was a zone free safety in college and has above average feet, but his hip flexibility seems to cause him to be a tad slow in transition time and coming out of his breaks with a burst. Not that he has bad hips, but they are around the below average area. He also seems to get flushed out by blockers a bit too easily when coming up for run support or shadowing the screen.

Culver seemed to read the plays pretty well last year. He didn't allow that many players to get behind him or disrupt him in his zone/coverage. He can hit with some authority too. On top of that he seems to know where the ball is when the opposing player catches it. He has a knack for breaking up the pass even if the player has the ball in his hands.

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 04:20 PM
^^^ yeah but he didn't make many plays on the ball either...

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 04:29 PM
you can add malcolm jenkins to that list...he's slow as heck and the saints have moved him to fs...i figured that would happen in not too long

i thought louis delmas played ss in detroit....huh

edit: i think malcolm was being moved to fs if sharper left in free agency so maybe they're waiting on the free safety move with jenkins now...

Malcolm Jenkins is actually above average in speed for a free safety. As I recall he ran something like a 4.50 and that's not "slow as heck". Jairus Byrd at 4.68 is "slow as heck".

Far as I know Delmas played FS for the Lions. And yeah Jenkins was moved to FS while they were still in limbo with Sharper.

My list was purely off last year's action and snap counts.

RobertHorry
06-24-2010, 04:32 PM
^^^ yeah but he didn't make many plays on the ball either...

Thats not really true. He had a couple breakups against one of the best tight ends of all time in the Atlanta Game. He was able to do the same against Antonio Gates and the Saints game as well. He is able to anticipate the ball location and where its being caught and effectively slap the ball out.

I didn't really know those were the 40 times of the safeties. Man, if Clemons can put it together mentally and vocally, he can be a special player. 205 pounds, 6 foot, loves to hit and is physical, and would be one of the fastest safeties in the game. Essentially top 2 fastest.

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 04:38 PM
Hooshoops is referring to the fact that Tyrone Culver only had two potential interceptions in 2009. One went through his hands.

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 04:41 PM
Malcolm Jenkins is actually above average in speed for a free safety. As I recall he ran something like a 4.50 and that's not "slow as heck". Jairus Byrd at 4.68 is "slow as heck".

Far as I know Delmas played FS for the Lions. And yeah Jenkins was moved to FS while they were still in limbo with Sharper.

My list was purely off last year's action and snap counts.

i meant slow as heck for a cb...and that 4.5 flat where did you get that??? i could have sworn he was almost if not a 4.6 guy at the combine last year...

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 04:44 PM
Hooshoops is referring to the fact that Tyrone Culver only had two potential interceptions in 2009. One went through his hands.

what i'm really referring to is that for me if you play that many snaps on passing downs you should make some plays on the ball...a few ints...i don't think its too much to ask

but at the same time i didn't study culver to see if it was more a product of the role he was playing in that defense or if he just didn't make plays cause he didn't have the instincts etc to get there...or if the ball for that matter was thrown at him much...

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 04:54 PM
let me go ahead and say something else...i don't think for one second that jairius byrd is gonna play up to the level int's wise he did last year...dudes uber slow and when i reviewed his tape at oregon i believe it was he was like watching a snail move coming out of his breaks back to the ball...

enjoy your great rookie year mr byrd...i don't think you've got a prayer of getting 7 ints i think it was you picked off last year again...

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 04:56 PM
Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.51/2.62/1.47 at the Combine according to NFL Draft Scout.

That's pretty much what I said. Culver only got his hands on the ball twice. I'm not counting plays where he tomahawked a ball down to prevent it being caught. He had two potential interceptions, he let one slip by him. And I agree, you play a certain number of snaps you should get your hands on the ball a few more times.

But, I will say this.

1. He only played 304 snaps. Darren Sharper, for example, played three times that many snaps. I don't know how many interceptions Darren let slip through his hands but he did have 9 total picks. Same with Nick Collins, I don't know how many slipped through his paws but he got 6 picks in three times as many snaps as Culver. Had Culver snagged that ball that went through his fingers I believe against Carolina...then you start wondering how much impact the snap count had on his potential for making plays on the ball.

2. On the other hand, one does also have to keep in mind that he had 252 plays in pass coverage on those 304 snaps, because his role was in the pass-heavy nickel. So, going back to previous example, Nick Collins had 609 plays in coverage (2.4x) and Darren Sharper had 665 (2.6x). So, IF Culver had snagged that second interception and you insisted on projecting his numbers outward (which is always a questionable activity) the real number of interceptions we're talking about is 5 interceptions, not 6 interceptions.

3. Even so, that suggests he does have SOME potential for making more plays on the ball if he just goes from being a 300 snap guy to being a 1000 snap guy. Stands to reason, no?

4. Since I did review literally every single play of his in order to make a video I can tell you that the answer to your latter question is a little bit of both. The position itself didn't really give him a ton of opportunities to make those plays, nor was he honestly challenged that much. But, at the same time, I saw plenty of opportunities where he could have been reading the quarterback or the play and he wasn't, so there is room for improvement.

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 05:00 PM
let me go ahead and say something else...i don't think for one second that jairius byrd is gonna play up to the level int's wise he did last year...dudes uber slow and when i reviewed his tape at oregon i believe it was he was like watching a snail move coming out of his breaks back to the ball...

enjoy your great rookie year mr byrd...i don't think you've got a prayer of getting 7 ints i think it was you picked off last year again...

He actually had 9 interceptions. Incredible. I think at least 3 or 4 of them were tip-ups. But still. I generally agree he was a lot more liability than people think and there was a reason the Bills insisted on making him just a role player even after he was lighting it up with interceptions. I also agree he's a snail. I had pretty fierce arguments with his supporters about that heading into the draft. It was clear to me on the tape that his 4.68 was not a fluke. It wasn't a bad day. It was just him. There were a lot of people that wanted to make him a corner in Miami's system and I just insisted that would be absolutely tragic. He's a safety at best and probably a nickel safety which is how the Bills used him.

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:01 PM
i'm gonna do some research on malcom jenkins...i could have sworn slimm and i were like ugh when we saw his combine #...maybe it was his pro day at ohio st or something but i could have sworn i saw a number that i was like that is a concern...

ck, how do you have these snap #s so handy??? it's impressive but how do you do it??? you must have some serious spreadsheets on dolphins players and the nfl in general...

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:04 PM
He actually had 9 interceptions. Incredible. I think at least 3 or 4 of them were tip-ups. But still. I generally agree he was a lot more liability than people think and there was a reason the Bills insisted on making him just a role player even after he was lighting it up with interceptions. I also agree he's a snail. I had pretty fierce arguments with his supporters about that heading into the draft. It was clear to me on the tape that his 4.68 was not a fluke. It wasn't a bad day. It was just him. There were a lot of people that wanted to make him a corner in Miami's system and I just insisted that would be absolutely tragic. He's a safety at best and probably a nickel safety which is how the Bills used him.

honestly...i thought he'd never make it period...i didn't think there was a shot in haiti at cb and i didn't think he'd be a sure enough tackler etc to play safety and with that speed i thought he'd get exposed vs the pass if he did play safety...

i also saw the ball seem to find him an awful lot last year...tips, thrown almost right to him, etc...

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 05:05 PM
I got skills (http://www.profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=17&stype=a&stats=d).

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:09 PM
I got skills (http://www.profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=17&stype=a&stats=d).

i see modesty is a strength as well... ha ha

RobertHorry
06-24-2010, 05:09 PM
He actually had 9 interceptions. Incredible. I think at least 3 or 4 of them were tip-ups. But still. I generally agree he was a lot more liability than people think and there was a reason the Bills insisted on making him just a role player even after he was lighting it up with interceptions. I also agree he's a snail. I had pretty fierce arguments with his supporters about that heading into the draft. It was clear to me on the tape that his 4.68 was not a fluke. It wasn't a bad day. It was just him. There were a lot of people that wanted to make him a corner in Miami's system and I just insisted that would be absolutely tragic. He's a safety at best and probably a nickel safety which is how the Bills used him.

Actually he had all 9 of his interceptions off of tip-ups or terrible overthrows/behind the wideout throws.

#1 (Preseason) - Brooks Bollinger off a terribly thrown ball behind his intended wideout on a slant. the wideout sank his hips and created separation on the goal-line , but Bollinger threw it behind him. Ball was tipped up right to Byrd waiting there.

#2 - Mark Sanchez off a deep bomb into double coverage that was hanging for 4-5 seconds and Byrd was just waiting there.

#3 - Vince Young off a MASSIVE overthrow. Young threw it 5 yards beyond his wideout who was running a seam. Byrd was just sitting there.

#4 - Matt Schaub threw it directly to Byrd who was 5-8 yards off the wideout. He literally threw it right to him.

$5 - Matt Cassel threw it into coverage on 4th down and it was tipped up and Byrd was sitting at the right place again.

#6 - Derek Anderson threw a fade to his wideout, but overthrew it by 4-6 yards and too far inside. Byrd was sitting right there.

#7 - Jake Delhomme overthrew the deep dagger by 5-6 yards and Byrd was sitting there again.

#8 - Mark Sanchez overthrew the bullet pass and Braylon Edwards tipped it right to Byrd.

#9 - Matt Schaub threw it way behind his wideout and the wideout tipped it in the air. Byrd was sitting there again.

#10 - Jake Delhomme overthrew the ball by 3-4 yards and it was tipped right to Byrd again.

Jairus Byrd had literally 0 interceptions where he made a break on the ball with a good read for the interception. ALL of his interceptions were tipped balls or terribly overthrown balls. Add to the fact he picked off the worst QBs in the NFL.

Byrd had an EXTREMELY lucky year.

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:10 PM
i'm gonna bookmark that site...cool

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 05:16 PM
i see modesty is a strength as well... ha ha

Hey at least I didn't try and keep the site in my back pocket, lol.

A&O
06-24-2010, 05:19 PM
Oh well. Everything happens for a reason: That's my belief.

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 05:20 PM
i'm gonna bookmark that site...cool

Worth bookmarking, definitely. Worth spending hours on, even.

But DO NOT trust the ratings. Stats, ok but not always reliable. Participation, gold. Ratings, crap. Maybe as the most trivial of supporting points in an argument but the South Florida media has started to use their ratings definitively saying something like "So and so was the #13 rated safety in the NFL." and that is just wrong.

Their ratings overly simplistic mathematical treatments of subjective evaluations. They watch a play and give a guy a plus or a minus on the play, and then just slap it all together into a rating and it's all just really wreckless. Evaluating is an art, not a science. They have no appreciation for that and so that's how you get things like Takeo Spikes being a much more highly rated ILB in 2008 than his teammate Patrick Willis, who was only just a little bit better than Channing Crowder.

TedSlimmJr
06-24-2010, 05:20 PM
i'm gonna do some research on malcom jenkins...i could have sworn slimm and i were like ugh when we saw his combine #...maybe it was his pro day at ohio st or something but i could have sworn i saw a number that i was like that is a concern...

ck, how do you have these snap #s so handy??? it's impressive but how do you do it??? you must have some serious spreadsheets on dolphins players and the nfl in general...


It wasn't the combine numbers that I was concerned with... it was watching him get burned over the top in man coverage.... especially against LSU in a game that I studied the film on. And he wasn't getting burned by speedsters either....Early Doucet was one of them.

The concern with Jenkins was with how stiffed hipped he was.... and you and I discussed at length that we just didn't think he could survive at corner in the NFL.... only to hear as the draft neared, that in fact some teams were flat out telling Jenkins that he was a safety on their board.

Personally, I think Jenkins best chance at corner in the NFL would've been in a Cover-2 defense...

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:24 PM
yeah slimm but wasn't he slow??? wasn't there a number that you and i didn't like...

i agree at cb cover 2 made the most sense but i keep thinking we didn't like his speed either...

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:25 PM
Worth bookmarking, definitely. Worth spending hours on, even.

But DO NOT trust the ratings. Stats, ok but not always reliable. Participation, gold. Ratings, crap. Maybe as the most trivial of supporting points in an argument but the South Florida media has started to use their ratings definitively saying something like "So and so was the #13 rated safety in the NFL." and that is just wrong.

Their ratings overly simplistic mathematical treatments of subjective evaluations. They watch a play and give a guy a plus or a minus on the play, and then just slap it all together into a rating and it's all just really wreckless. Evaluating is an art, not a science. They have no appreciation for that and so that's how you get things like Takeo Spikes being a much more highly rated ILB in 2008 than his teammate Patrick Willis, who was only just a little bit better than Channing Crowder.

great...so now i have to pick thru the info

lol...don't worry if patrick willis is listed anywhere on the same page as channing crowder i'll KNOW to disregard the ratings...ha ha

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 05:28 PM
Personally I was a big Malcolm Jenkins fan at CB. He's not slow. He's big, he has adequate speed, and great agility. Can really stick his nose in there. I think he'll be OK in time. Whether it be CB in a Cover 2 or CB in something else, or moving over to safety. His versatility is a source of value, to me.

TedSlimmJr
06-24-2010, 05:29 PM
yeah slimm but wasn't he slow??? wasn't there a number that you and i didn't like...

i agree at cb cover 2 made the most sense but i keep thinking we didn't like his speed either...


Yeah I think it was his first run... some scouts had him timed as high as 4.59ish or something..... got it down into the low 4.5's on his second attempt...

But like I said, it was his transition out of his backpedal that's what was getting him into trouble..

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:32 PM
yeah but versatility can also get you in trouble...see jason allen

i have a tough time getting excited about guys that i perceive as tweeners...not a cb not a safety...in between

i don't have high praise for guys that i rate that way...

i kind of had that rating on sean smith last year...

Roman529
06-24-2010, 05:35 PM
Good!!!! Why overspend when we have a future star in Clemons. Gotta give it time.

RobertHorry
06-24-2010, 05:37 PM
Yeah I think it was his first run... some scouts had him timed as high as 4.59ish or something..... got it down into the low 4.5's on his second attempt...

But like I said, it was his transition out of his backpedal that's what was getting him into trouble..


Same problem with Reshad Jones. His transition time blows.

hooshoops
06-24-2010, 05:40 PM
reshad jones at free safety is not good...not from what i've seen...i think he'll make a good ss...provided he stops going for the kill shot every time and learns to not go head hunting...seems like he's gonna get a lot of 15 yard personal foul penalties otherwise

772Fin
06-24-2010, 05:56 PM
Byrd had an EXTREMELY lucky year.

I mean, I'm not saying that he's one of the best safeties out there, but you're being silly if you think he got NINE interceptions in eleven starts, fourteen games via luck.

#2 - Incorrect, Byrd got to the ball and reached out to snatch it away from Braylon JUST before it reached his hands.

#3 - Looks more like a 2-3 yard overthrow that his receiver was in stride with. Byrd expanded his zone to get it once he made his read.

#5 - It's a good grab. That ball was spinning like crazy, and once again he RAN to the right place.

#6 - Byrd runs and makes a DIVING CATCH. You think it was right to him?

#8 - Deflected bullet passes aren't very easy to catch within two yards. Good eyes on the ball to secure it.

#9 - He catches it far and wide on the left side of his body after it's tipped. Good eyes.

There are actually six interceptions that are primarily from great ball hawking.

He was known as a ball hawk coming out of school. It's not like it should be hard to believe that the starting FS in one of the best secondaries in football is good.

RobertHorry
06-24-2010, 06:05 PM
I mean, I'm not saying that he's one of the best safeties out there, but you're being silly if you think he got NINE interceptions in eleven starts, fourteen games via luck.

#2 - Incorrect, Byrd got to the ball and reached out to snatch it away from Braylon JUST before it reached his hands.

#3 - Looks more like a 2-3 yard overthrow that his receiver was in stride with. Byrd expanded his zone to get it once he made his read.

#5 - It's a good grab. That ball was spinning like crazy, and once again he RAN to the right place.

#6 - Byrd runs and makes a DIVING CATCH. You think it was right to him?

#8 - Deflected bullet passes aren't very easy to catch within two yards. Good eyes on the ball to secure it.

#9 - He catches it far and wide on the left side of his body after it's tipped. Good eyes.

There are actually six interceptions that are primarily from great ball hawking.

He was known as a ball hawk coming out of school. It's not like it should be hard to believe that the starting FS in one of the best secondaries in football is good.

Expanding his zone? Ball spinning like crazy? Good Eyes? Diving Catch? You know this is the NFL we are talking about. A Diving catch is not hard at all, even on the college level. It sounds like your are making excuses for his ridiculous lucky interceptions. He made ZERO breaks on any of his interceptions.

ckparrothead
06-24-2010, 07:11 PM
yeah but versatility can also get you in trouble...see jason allen

i have a tough time getting excited about guys that i perceive as tweeners...not a cb not a safety...in between

i don't have high praise for guys that i rate that way...

i kind of had that rating on sean smith last year...

Versatility is the reason Jason Allen is still in this league. He's dumb as a lamp post and he tends to fall apart under pressure.

abyzmul
06-24-2010, 07:30 PM
Oh well. Everything happens for a reason: That's my belief.

What was the reason the Dolphins chose Culpepper over Brees?

A&O
06-24-2010, 07:58 PM
good point.

Tigers2003
06-25-2010, 12:42 AM
What was the reason the Dolphins chose Culpepper over Brees?

It is maddening to contemplate just how much of an effect that decision had on us and how with are just recovering; assuming Henne will be the ultimate answer. The decision to hang our hopes on Clemmons and Culver better pay off. Ironic how much safety has been an achilles heel the past few years.