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VaPhinatic2
10-06-2010, 10:13 AM
I heard on Mike & Mike this morning that the Pats have 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 2 3rds, 2 4ths in the 2011 draft. Unbelievable! With so many draft picks, will they make a play for Vincent Jackson?

Tunaphish429
10-06-2010, 10:16 AM
Looks like they might make a play for him..

They have alot of fire power and the Pats are going to be good for years to come

ckparrothead
10-06-2010, 10:33 AM
If there's a strike in 2011 then the value of those draft picks diminishes heavily.

In the draft, teams generally ding a guy's value pretty significantly if the first time he'll suit up for you would be the first time he's suited up in like 20 months, because he had a year layoff for whatever reason. A 1st round prospect becomes a 2nd round prospect, a 2nd becomes a 3rd, etc. Gronkowski is a good example of a guy that probably would have gone 1st round if he'd played any football in 2009.

So while it's a boon for the Pats to have so many draft picks in this draft, they'd better hope there's no strike in 2011.

IHearJimi
10-06-2010, 10:36 AM
Man I hate the other teams in our division. I want to move to a division where every other team blows. Our division is TOUGH!

"In addition to their own picks, the Patriots now have Oakland's first pick next year, Carolina's second-round pick, Minnesota's third-round pick and Denver's fourth-round pick."

TedSlimmJr
10-06-2010, 10:37 AM
Apparently a strike is the ONLY thing that's going to stop these teams from trading all these ****ing draft picks to the Patriots constantly...

It's been beyond ridiculous for years... and they just keep doing it.

Tunaphish429
10-06-2010, 10:40 AM
Apparently a strike is the ONLY thing that's going to stop these teams from trading all these ****ing draft picks to the Patriots constantly...

It's been beyond ridiculous for years... and they just keep doing it.

Yup your exactly right..for some reason the Pats are always able to get top value for their players and trade peanuts to aquire other players with talent...

Ie Randy Moss..Corey Dillon

Only once have the Pats overpaid in the recent future and that was a 3rd and 5th for Derrick Burgess who did nothing for them than retired..

jree
10-06-2010, 10:45 AM
Doesn't surprise me one bit. Belichick does it every year. He is the draft guru

SpaceMountain16
10-06-2010, 11:16 AM
Vincent Jackson? Who cares. I'm more fearful of the fact that they can reload around Tom Brady (who is in his prime) and use the picks on solid players to help them for many years to come.

JerryD
10-06-2010, 11:29 AM
If there's a strike in 2011 then the value of those draft picks diminishes heavily.

In the draft, teams generally ding a guy's value pretty significantly if the first time he'll suit up for you would be the first time he's suited up in like 20 months, because he had a year layoff for whatever reason. A 1st round prospect becomes a 2nd round prospect, a 2nd becomes a 3rd, etc. Gronkowski is a good example of a guy that probably would have gone 1st round if he'd played any football in 2009.

So while it's a boon for the Pats to have so many draft picks in this draft, they'd better hope there's no strike in 2011.

Will the contract run out before the Draft? If so will there be NO DRAFT?

If there is No Draft, how will that work?? Do they just go on to the 2012 Draft??? ... or would they have a LATE 2011 Draft ... then a2012 Draft

Could the 2011 Draft disappear by having only 1 draft in 2012?? ... doesn't seem fair to the folks who accumulated picks.

MarinePhinFan
10-06-2010, 11:30 AM
When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick? You're giving the Pats FO too much credit. They have been in decline since 2007, and believe it or not are rebuilding just like us. Their defense is horrid. Their WR corps just lost their number 1 AND 2. (That's right, Moss demands double coverage so I count him as two WR's) and unless they get VJ their passing game is done. They have no running game. The Pats haven't hit on a draft pick in years. Albeit the jury is still out on some, but most don't look like they'll be anything special.

And to say that Brady is in his prime...LMFAO! Without Moss, Brady is average. Wait and see...

TedSlimmJr
10-06-2010, 11:47 AM
When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick? You're giving the Pats FO too much credit. They have been in decline since 2007, and believe it or not are rebuilding just like us. Their defense is horrid. Their WR corps just lost their number 1 AND 2. (That's right, Moss demands double coverage so I count him as two WR's) and unless they get VJ their passing game is done. They have no running game. The Pats haven't hit on a draft pick in years. Albeit the jury is still out on some, but most don't look like they'll be anything specia

And to say that Brady is in his prime...LMFAO! Without Moss, Brady is average. Wait and see...



Unbelievable....:lol: Could you be in any more denial? You must still be dizzy from that 41-14 blitzkrieg the Patriots just ran over Miami with...


Julian Edelman... Aaron Hernandez... Brandon Tate... Sebastian Vollmer....Jerod Mayo.... etc.. etc..

Did you happen to pay ANY attention whatsoever to Patrick Chung Monday night?

Hell, they don't even have to hit on picks when they can beat you with Danny ****ing Woodhead....

The fact that they keep accumulating the ammo gives them more chances to hit on picks and keep loading their roster...


I'm convinced.... some of you are suffering from Parcellsitis... I've seen it before..

Mr. Magoo
10-06-2010, 12:05 PM
Unbelievable....:lol: Could you be in any more denial? You must still be dizzy from that 41-14 blitzkrieg the Patriots just ran over Miami with...

Julian Edelman... Aaron Hernandez... Brandon Tate... Sebastian Vollmer....Jerod Mayo.... etc.. etc..

Did you happen to pay ANY attention whatsoever to Patrick Chung Monday night?

Hell, they don't even have to hit on picks when they can beat you with Danny ****ing Woodhead....

The fact that they keep accumulating the ammo gives them more chances to hit on picks and keep loading their roster...

I'm conviced.... some of you are suffering from Parcellsitis... I've seen it before..

Hernandez and Gronkowski are threats and only look to get better. Mayo is also a good player. Vollmer looked good his rookie year but has regressed this year IMO. But just because we were humiliated on Monday doesn't mean that the balance of the Patriots' roster is very good. We were just awful.

Patrick Chung played a great game on special teams, but he's still the guy who let the Bills complete a hole shot against him in cover 2 last week. Ron Brace has been just a guy. Spikes is over aggressive against the run and has no speed. Whatever they did against us, Banta Cain and Ninkovich are mediocre at best. Wilfork isn't the guy he was a few years ago. Teams have been able to single block him at times this season. And, of course, their situation at corner is an abomination, outside of McCourty's potential.

We shouldn't convince ourselves that just because they kicked our ***** on special teams that the Patriots are some kind of a great team. That's the wrong lesson to take from that game.

But the truth is I agree that their strategy is the right one, and their bounty on draft day is the envy of every team in the league. The only thing that can bring them down is the lockout. Every junior or redshirt sophomore -- the guys who really made up the elite talent every year -- will sit on his hands and play another year rather than go pro under those circumstances.

On the prospective talent alone next year's draft could be one of the best in the last 10 years, at least at the skill positions. But if those guys don't come out it could be one of the worst, at least since 2005.

TedSlimmJr
10-06-2010, 12:06 PM
Hernandez and Gronkowski are threats and only look to get better. Mayo is also a good player. Vollmer looked good his rookie year but has regressed this year IMO. But just because we were humiliated on Monday doesn't mean the Patriots' players are very good. We were just awful.

Patrick Chung played a great game on special teams, but he's still the guy who let the Bills complete a hole shot against him in cover 2 last week. But Ron Brace has been just a guy. Spikes is over aggressive against the run and has no speed. Whatever they did against us, Banta Cain and Ninkovich are mediocre at best. Wilfork isn't the guy he was a few years ago. Teams have been able to single block him at times this season. And, of course, their situation at corner is an abomination, outside of McCourty's potential.

We shouldn't convince ourselves that just because they kicked our ***** on special teams that the Patriots are some kind of a great team. That's the wrong lesson to take from that game.



Perfect example of the Parcellsitis I'm referring to... thank you Magoo.

FinKnight
10-06-2010, 12:08 PM
When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick? You're giving the Pats FO too much credit. They have been in decline since 2007, and believe it or not are rebuilding just like us. Their defense is horrid. Their WR corps just lost their number 1 AND 2. (That's right, Moss demands double coverage so I count him as two WR's) and unless they get VJ their passing game is done. They have no running game. The Pats haven't hit on a draft pick in years. Albeit the jury is still out on some, but most don't look like they'll be anything specia

And to say that Brady is in his prime...LMFAO! Without Moss, When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick? You're giving the Pats FO too much credit. They have been in decline since 2007, and believe it or not are rebuilding just like us. Their defense is horrid. Their WR corps just lost their number 1 AND 2. (That's right, Moss demands double coverage so I count him as two WR's) and unless they get VJ their passing game is done. They have no running game. The Pats haven't hit on a draft pick in years. Albeit the jury is still out on some, but most don't look like they'll be anything special

And to say that Brady is in his prime...LMFAO! Without Moss, Brady is average. Wait and see....





Unbelievable....:lol: Could you be in any more denial? You must still be dizzy from that 41-14 blitzkrieg the Patriots just ran over Miami with...


Julian Edelman... Aaron Hernandez... Brandon Tate... Sebastian Vollmer....Jerod Mayo.... etc.. etc..

Did you happen to pay ANY attention whatsoever to Patrick Chung Monday night?

Hell, they don't even have to hit on picks when they can beat you with Danny ****ing Woodhead....

The fact that they keep accumulating the ammo gives them more chances to hit on picks and keep loading their roster...

Couldn't have written a better response. Totally in denial. Patrick Chung is one of their recent draft picks.....he had a pretty good game against us if you don't remember. Brandon Tate = Return TD. I know our special teams was abysmal, but these guys made plays.And what did Brady do before he had Moss?? He just won super bowls. I hate the Pats just as much as every Fins fan, and I hate to say it, but none of us can deny their success.

Mr. Magoo
10-06-2010, 12:11 PM
Perfect example of the Parcellsitis I'm referring to... thank you Magoo.

So you honestly believe the Patriots are stocked with elite talent? Because all I'm saying is that we were worse, not that they are good. How that has anything to do with Parcells is beyond me. My thoughts on his ability to scout talent are on record and not particularly flattering.

TedSlimmJr
10-06-2010, 12:13 PM
Couldn't have written a better response. Totally in denial. Patrick Chung is one of their recent draft picks.....he had a pretty good game against us if you don't remember. Brandon Tate = Return TD. I know our special teams was abysmal, but these guys made plays.And what did Brady do before he had Moss?? He just won super bowls. I hate the Pats just as much as every Fins fan, and I hate to say it, but none of us can deny their success.


Brandon Tate was a guy that they knew was going to break out this year if you paid any attention to their camps.... they didn't just trade Randy Moss because Belichek is mad at him... he's not that stupid.

The Patriots know when the gettin' is good and when to get out of gettin' got...

miamiron
10-06-2010, 12:18 PM
When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick?

2010
#42..Rob Gronkowski...TE
#113...Aaron Hernandez...TE

Patrick Chung...34 tackles in 3 games
Brandon Tate the reason Moss is gone
Sebastian Vollmer

Jerod Mayo...16 tackles versus the Dolphins...43 tackles this season 3rd in the NFL

The Pats also have 35 players with 3 years or less experience
and the Dolphins have 30 players

They also have this to look forward to

1st Round
1st Round (OAK – Richard Seymour)
2nd Round (CAR – 2010 3rd Round)
2nd Round
3rd Round (MIN – Randy Moss (http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2010/10/patriots-trade-randy-moss-to-minnesota.html))
3rd Round
4th Round
4th Round (DEN – Laurence Maroney)
5th Round
6th Round (NO – David Thomas)

which Belichek will convert to more picks in 2011 and 2012

Regardless you have to give the man props with what he has accomplished

TedSlimmJr
10-06-2010, 12:19 PM
So you honestly believe the Patriots are stocked with elite talent? Because all I'm saying is that we were worse, not that they are good. How that has anything to do with Parcells is beyond me. My thoughts on his ability to scout talent are on record and not particularly flattering.


Parcellsitis isn't what you think it is... It affects you without you knowing it.. It makes you justify blowout losses to teams because "they're not that good"... "We're getting close"...

You start listing all of the "hits" that he's managed to make stick on your "talentless roster"...

It's even affecting his own coaching staff... they'll continue to hire and fire coaches and throw everyone under the bus until Ross finally holds THEM accountable... or at least the two that are left...


Don't let it get you Magoo!!.. There's no cure!!

WVDolphan
10-06-2010, 12:19 PM
This is why Belichick is a genius. Hell, without him Parcells may have never even won anything as a coach.

And HELL NO are they even thinking about Vincent Jackson. Why in the hell would they want him? They have good talent at good prices because Belichick knows how to work the draft unlike Parcells. What the hell is Jackson going to do for them.

Have you guys not seen Brady work with whoever at receiver before? They will be fine. Tate will step in and be their deep threat. No way in hell do they trade Moss only to turn around and give up more than they got for him to get Vincent ****ing Jackson. GET REAL. Who even thought of that ridiculous notion?

Belichick will just recycle the team like he always does and get the best out of what he has now. Thats why they win a bunch of games every year. After these 8 picks, he will have that defense ****ing roaring again and Im sure it wont be long till he gets a guy to be able to step in for Brady in 3-5 years.

And yep, he was smart enough to pick up Woodhead like I urged our FO to do. But, no. We cant waste our time with good football players at bargain basement prices. We have to get Bobbie Carpenter. What a joke.

WVDolphan
10-06-2010, 12:22 PM
Parcellsitis isn't what you think it is... It affects you without you knowing it.. It makes you justify blowout losses to teams because "they're not that good"... "We're getting close"...

You start listing all of the "hits" that he's managed to make stick on your "talentless roster"...

It's even affecting his own coaching staff... they'll continue to hire and fire coaches and throw everyone under the bus until Ross finally holds THEM accountable... or at least the two that are left...


Don't let it get you Magoo!!.. There's no cure!!


:sidelol: Dude you ****ing kill me. Classic. Parcellsitis. Operation mediocrity.

miamiron
10-06-2010, 12:26 PM
After these 8 picks, he will have that defense ****ing roaring again and Im sure it wont be long till he gets a guy to be able to step in for Brady in 3-5 years.
.

You must mean after these 10 picks

1st Round
1st Round (OAK – Richard Seymour)
2nd Round (CAR – 2010 3rd Round)
2nd Round
3rd Round (MIN – Randy Moss (http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2010/10/patriots-trade-randy-moss-to-minnesota.html))
3rd Round
4th Round
4th Round (DEN – Laurence Maroney)
5th Round
6th Round (NO – David Thomas)

Ilovemyfins4eva
10-06-2010, 12:26 PM
When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick? You're giving the Pats FO too much credit. They have been in decline since 2007, and believe it or not are rebuilding just like us. Their defense is horrid. Their WR corps just lost their number 1 AND 2. (That's right, Moss demands double coverage so I count him as two WR's) and unless they get VJ their passing game is done. They have no running game. The Pats haven't hit on a draft pick in years. Albeit the jury is still out on some, but most don't look like they'll be anything special.

And to say that Brady is in his prime...LMFAO! Without Moss, Brady is average. Wait and see...i wish we can decline like them. since 07. 08- 11-5, didnt make the playoffs but thats fluky and 09- win division at 10-6, losing last game bc they didnt care. bottom line, maybe they are not as explosive as they used to be, but they continue to win somehow witht the players they piece together, and they never win less than 9 games. i cant remember the last time they did. they will still be a good team for a while. i hope im wrong, but if they can win with wideouts such as branch, givens, brown, i dont see y they cant win now with these guys.

Mr. Magoo
10-06-2010, 12:32 PM
Parcellsitis isn't what you think it is... It affects you without you knowing it.. It makes you justify blowout losses to teams because "they're not that good"... "We're getting close"...

You start listing all of the "hits" that he's managed to make stick on your "talentless roster"...

It's even affecting his own coaching staff... they'll continue to hire and fire coaches and throw everyone under the bus until Ross finally holds THEM accountable... or at least the two that are left...

Don't let it get you Magoo!!.. There's no cure!!

Oh, okay. I should have guessed you were trying to make a joke rather than a serious point, because there's just no way to defend the notion that the Patriots are a team stocked with elite talent, which you'd frankly expect them to be given how brilliantly they've manipulated their ability to trade players for picks and picks for picks.

It's funny, though, the irony of all this. According to one side of this, anyone who thinks the Dolphins have talent and Sparano is a good coach has a "disease", and on the other side, anyone who criticizes our talent, our coaches or our FO isn't a "fan."

That's what funny about this. But by "funny," of course, I mean pathetic. There's seriously right now a group of posters who come on and crow when we win, and another group who come on and crow when we lose, as if they're not so much rooting for the team or analyzing what happens as they're rooting for their predictions to come true.

TedSlimmJr
10-06-2010, 12:35 PM
Oh, okay. I should have guessed you were trying to make a joke rather than a serious point.

It's funny, though, the irony of all this. According to one side of this, anyone who thinks the Dolphins have talent and Sparano is a good coach has a "disease", and on the other side, anyone who criticizes our talent, our coaches or our FO isn't a "fan."

That's what funny about this. But by "funny," of course, I mean pathetic. There's seriously right now a group of posters who come on and crow when we win, and another group who come on and crow when we lose, as if they're not so much rooting for the team or analyzing what happens as they're rooting for their predictions to come true.


It's absolutely not a joke... you'll see.


There's a fine line between analyzing what happens, making excuses, and complete denial...

MadDog 88
10-06-2010, 12:43 PM
I'm with Magoo here. Belichick is great at getting the picks but he is no where near as capable at using them in comparison to getting them. They have have been rebuilding the defense the last couple of years and come up blank. Their defense is terrible. Stop using the Monday night melt down of the Special Teams in the argument. If you insist, look at the Jets game as well. The defense shut that powerful offense down by pressuring Brady.

As WV points out, Brady can work with anyone. Think about that. Anyone.

MadDog 88
10-06-2010, 12:45 PM
And no I have not been diagnosed with Parcellitis. I got my booster shot.

Mr. Magoo
10-06-2010, 12:47 PM
It's absolutely not a joke... you'll see.

There's a fine line between analyzing what happens, making excuses, and complete denial...

And it's just as easy for a person with one agenda to explain away success as temporary and not indicative of the talent of the team or it's coaches as it is for a person with another agenda to explain away defeat as temporary and not indicative of the talent of the team, etc etc.

WVDolphan
10-06-2010, 12:48 PM
And no I have not been diagnosed with Parcellitis.

I think you have to check with Dr.Slimm before you can be cleared. We cant have this **** spreading. Its already an epidemic. FH may have to be quarentiened.

MadDog 88
10-06-2010, 12:52 PM
I think you have to check with Dr.Slimm before you can be cleared. We cant have this **** spreading. Its already an epidemic. FH may have to be quarentiened.:lol:

Ricky'sWeinerBong
10-06-2010, 01:02 PM
When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick? You're giving the Pats FO too much credit. They have been in decline since 2007, and believe it or not are rebuilding just like us. Their defense is horrid. Their WR corps just lost their number 1 AND 2. (That's right, Moss demands double coverage so I count him as two WR's) and unless they get VJ their passing game is done. They have no running game. The Pats haven't hit on a draft pick in years. Albeit the jury is still out on some, but most don't look like they'll be anything special.

And to say that Brady is in his prime...LMFAO! Without Moss, Brady is average. Wait and see...

didnt that same average Tom Brady win SB's without Randy Moss and some ragtag wr core?

hooshoops
10-06-2010, 01:28 PM
the pats have had some pretty average drafts of late...but the way our drafts of late are shaking out with most of these high picks so have we

the patriots though just keep reloading ammo and building the right way...just be glad they don't have ted thompson or ozzie newsome running their drafts...cause then we'd be royally screwed forever

oh and tom brady just "average" minus randy moss??? lol...you gotta be kidding me

Hayden Fox
10-06-2010, 01:29 PM
Dumb trade

hooshoops
10-06-2010, 01:30 PM
oh and if anyone takes my updated sig as me trying to prove an agenda that's not the case at all...the players i've listed there and the wildcat just royally suck

and i count the days til we replace them...

Mr. Magoo
10-06-2010, 02:28 PM
oh and if anyone takes my updated sig as me trying to prove an agenda that's not the case at all...the players i've listed there and the wildcat just royally suck

and i count the days til we replace them...

Four of the five guys you mention in your sig are backups, though. It's not hard to argue for the replacement of players who are only playing on account of injury -- or in Sean Smith and Bobby Carpenter's case -- only in certain situations against certain players. I fully believe Carpenter is only on the team anyway because AJ Edds got injured. Carpenter's role is the one they wanted Edds to play, and would probably be playing better. I know you're a believer in Micah Johnson but I doubt you would argue he should be on the field in obvious passing situations or against nickel personnel. And who else is on the roster? Spitler? I have my issues with Carpenter but I don't imagine he'd be worse than Spitler. Or Dobbins in that role.

People can talk all they want about Henne but the biggest problem with this offense right now is that we can't run consistently against cover 2. The Vikings, Bills and Patriots all dared us and we failed in each case. I knew the Patriots would go there and said so in my thread before the game.

Getting John Jerry back is vital and it seems fairly well clear Long has been playing with a bum wheel. Getting on track against Green Bay won't be easy, either. They were #2 against the run last year IIRC. Not sure if they're a cover 2 type of team or like the Jets -- stubborn enough to run their scheme whether the matchup works or not. Until we show we can beat it any team that doesn't sit back in soft cover 2 zones is dumber than cement.

Dolph N.Fan
10-06-2010, 04:17 PM
The 2011 draft will continue regardless if there is a strike or not.

Mr. Magoo
10-06-2010, 04:23 PM
The 2011 draft will continue regardless if there is a strike or not.

But it will change who comes out.

Dolph N.Fan
10-06-2010, 04:25 PM
But it will change who comes out.

True, but if you have a chance to be drafted in the 1st round I gotta think most kids would come out vs going back to school and possibly getting injured.

sharp
10-06-2010, 04:47 PM
Unbelievable....:lol: Could you be in any more denial? You must still be dizzy from that 41-14 blitzkrieg the Patriots just ran over Miami with...


Julian Edelman... Aaron Hernandez... Brandon Tate... Sebastian Vollmer....Jerod Mayo.... etc.. etc..

Did you happen to pay ANY attention whatsoever to Patrick Chung Monday night?

Hell, they don't even have to hit on picks when they can beat you with Danny ****ing Woodhead....

The fact that they keep accumulating the ammo gives them more chances to hit on picks and keep loading their roster...


I'm convinced.... some of you are suffering from Parcellsitis... I've seen it before..


Pretty sure chung has never and will never do anything like that again in his life.

Hernandez is very quick but didnt do much. Tate is a good KR. We had one but why keep one of the fastest players in the league who can be explosive when you can have cobbs.

Danny Woodhead, stupid move by the jets to cut him. Hes a good little quick player. Edelman eh.

Mayo is good, Merriweather is good, Wilfork is good.

That game was about as fluke as i've ever seen. We got thromped but under the most ridiculous of circumstances.

Also we can all say that vontae shut down moss and kicked him out of new england

Phinatic8u
10-06-2010, 04:48 PM
:lol: FH has a ****ing plague, Parcellsitis :lol: ****ing classic.

JiF
10-06-2010, 04:51 PM
When's the last time the Pats have hit on a draft pick? You're giving the Pats FO too much credit. They have been in decline since 2007, and believe it or not are rebuilding just like us. Their defense is horrid. Their WR corps just lost their number 1 AND 2. (That's right, Moss demands double coverage so I count him as two WR's) and unless they get VJ their passing game is done. They have no running game. The Pats haven't hit on a draft pick in years. Albeit the jury is still out on some, but most don't look like they'll be anything special.

And to say that Brady is in his prime...LMFAO! Without Moss, Brady is average. Wait and see...

Agreed...they swing and miss all the time.

That offense will be very average with out Moss, he makes it click. All that underneath stuff isnt going to be wide open any more and a bunch of undersized white dudes are going to learn what its like to have a safety pinning their ears back and blasting them trying to go over the middle without Moss.

VA_Finfan
10-06-2010, 05:02 PM
LOL to whoever said Brady is average

hemidemon
10-06-2010, 05:16 PM
Doesn't surprise me one bit. Belichick does it every year. He is the draft guru

No he's not!!! The draft guru went to KC. Pioli is the draft guru. The Chiefs will only get better while the Pats start missing on picks.

miamiron
10-06-2010, 05:22 PM
:lol: FH has a ****ing plague, Parcellsitis :lol: ****ing classic.

Definition
Parcellsitis

The ability to have no super bowl wins since 1983...and be considered a football genius

The ability to have 3 playoff wins since 1983...and be considered a football genius

The ability to have .529 winning percentage since 1983 and be considered a football genius

The ability to run away from a team when things don't go your way...and be considered a football genius

The ability to leave the last 2 teams he was with before us the Jets and Cowboys
with worse records than when he took over...but still considered a football genius

The ability to scam owners into paying him $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ because he is a football genius

miamiron
10-06-2010, 05:33 PM
No he's not!!! The draft guru went to KC. Pioli is the draft guru. The Chiefs will only get better while the Pats start missing on picks.

God help us Dolphin fans if Belichek learns how to draft considering his team has
90 wins and 26 losses in the previous 7 plus seasons

won-loss
3-1
10-6
11-5
16-0
12-4
10-6
14-2
14-2

and to think New England only has 10 total draft picks next season
8 picks in the first 4 rounds that Belichek will turn into a windfall of picks for
2012

hooshoops
10-06-2010, 10:18 PM
Four of the five guys you mention in your sig are backups, though. It's not hard to argue for the replacement of players who are only playing on account of injury -- or in Sean Smith and Bobby Carpenter's case -- only in certain situations against certain players. I fully believe Carpenter is only on the team anyway because AJ Edds got injured. Carpenter's role is the one they wanted Edds to play, and would probably be playing better. I know you're a believer in Micah Johnson but I doubt you would argue he should be on the field in obvious passing situations or against nickel personnel. And who else is on the roster? Spitler? I have my issues with Carpenter but I don't imagine he'd be worse than Spitler. Or Dobbins in that role.

People can talk all they want about Henne but the biggest problem with this offense right now is that we can't run consistently against cover 2. The Vikings, Bills and Patriots all dared us and we failed in each case. I knew the Patriots would go there and said so in my thread before the game.

Getting John Jerry back is vital and it seems fairly well clear Long has been playing with a bum wheel. Getting on track against Green Bay won't be easy, either. They were #2 against the run last year IIRC. Not sure if they're a cover 2 type of team or like the Jets -- stubborn enough to run their scheme whether the matchup works or not. Until we show we can beat it any team that doesn't sit back in soft cover 2 zones is dumber than cement.

dobbins and jason allen are starters...

anyways...its pretty painfully obvious watching what i have so far of the pats game over that the pats were giving us 7 in the box looks and we just couldn't muster to gash them enough running the ball...we'd get blockers to the lbs at the second level but it was like all we wanted to do was make contact...we couldn't sustain anything

and i've got a new nickname for pat mcquistan...he's the "zamboni" as much time as he spends mopping up the floor...guys on the ground all the damn time...can't sustain or even make solid contact when pulling...his balance sucks...another straight ahead only guy playing guard and being asked to pull...ugh

john jerry being out has really hurt us...teams are daring us to just line up and run the ball and we just can't do it consistently enough

like you said we're gonna see a lot of soft coverages from soft fronts until we do...

luduporcu
10-07-2010, 12:14 AM
The PATRIOTS have done well in accumulating a lot of draft picks over the last few years, but it seems they've done little w/them. As a footnote, has anyone noticed that since N.E. has been unable to steal opponents' signals, N.E. hasn't been close to winning a SB? Makes you wonder whether talent and coaching won those SBs, or cheating did.

NE has NOT replaced SEYMOUR, or BRUSCHI, or VRABLE, or LAW, or MILLOY, or even BRANCH. And they've done little to replenish their OL talent. It's beginning to show on both lines and the DBs especially! They have NOT done well recently w/their ton of 1st Day Draft Picks. Just because MIAMI's S/Ts literally handed them a victory doesn't change that: in fact, it changes NOTHING. Now, MOSS is gone: good for discipline, bad for the talent level.

No,sir! This is NOT the same N.E. PATRIOTS. Given that their SB victories came while they were cheating, maybe they NEVER WERE all that. Or maybe they were. Either way, they will be "past tense" soon, unless some of their presently-mediocre players REALLY develop, and quickly.

hemidemon
10-07-2010, 12:19 AM
God help us Dolphin fans if Belichek learns how to draft considering his team has
90 wins and 26 losses in the previous 7 plus seasons

won-loss
3-1
10-6
11-5
16-0
12-4
10-6
14-2
14-2

and to think New England only has 10 total draft picks next season
8 picks in the first 4 rounds that Belichek will turn into a windfall of picks for
2012

Pioli has been there drafting the entire time. Most fans like to give Belichek the credit, but they're wrong. I don't know if you've noticed, but N.E. is not as good this year and the Chiefs are much better. The Pats WILL NOT draft as well without Pioli.

Mr. Magoo
10-07-2010, 12:43 AM
dobbins and jason allen are starters...

anyways...its pretty painfully obvious watching what i have so far of the pats game over that the pats were giving us 7 in the box looks and we just couldn't muster to gash them enough running the ball...we'd get blockers to the lbs at the second level but it was like all we wanted to do was make contact...we couldn't sustain anything

and i've got a new nickname for pat mcquistan...he's the "zamboni" as much time as he spends mopping up the floor...guys on the ground all the damn time...can't sustain or even make solid contact when pulling...his balance sucks...another straight ahead only guy playing guard and being asked to pull...ugh

john jerry being out has really hurt us...teams are daring us to just line up and run the ball and we just can't do it consistently enough

like you said we're gonna see a lot of soft coverages from soft fronts until we do...

Dobbins is Crowder's backup, and has played like a backup so far. It's sad, really, because I was hoping for more. And this from someone who's in the minority on here and actually likes Crowder, even though he always strikes the eye as eminently upgradeable (and will have to be, I'd say, before we get serious about the Big Dance).

Was I also the only one to see Sean Smith getting some serious looks at strong safety Moday night? I got so disgusted I deleted the game right after it was over, then stumbled out into the street and killed the first thing I saw, which unfortunately was a paraplegic social worker (ok, so not that part). But I'm pretty sure I saw him at safety last night. I have never liked that idea as Sean's forte is and always will be bump and run and his burst and COD in zone leave much to be desired, but it was certainly interesting to see. If you get a chance, take a peek and tell me what you see, and try to pretend for a minute that you don't actually want Sean Smith's arms and legs amputated, infected with syphillis, and reattached (to steal a joke from SNL).

I agree about McQuistan. They say beauty is only skin deep, but ugly's to the bone. Well, Pat McQuistan is both ugly and talentless. A straight up Flounder. "Fat, stiff and clueless is no way to go through the NFL, son." Makes you wonder how bad Cory Proctor must be, and just what the hell's wrong with Donald Thomas (seriously, was he bitten in half by a shark or something? Did he de-foul Parcells' private commode? One of these days someone is going to have to explain it to me. Hopefully they speak very slowly and use visual aids).

I want to take a look at Green Bay's defense and see what they run. For our sake I hope they run a defense similar to the Jets. We seem to know what to do with that. Also it seems like Nick Barnett's out for the year, which makes him and Morgan Burnett pretty key recent losses that Washington is probably too inept to exploit. People on here are freaking out and spouting off idiocy in very unattractive and stupid ways, but I haven't seen more than a few posts recognizing the fact that the key problem with our offense isn't Henne, but the fact that we can't run consistently against cover 2. You need an elite quarterback, years of timing and some specialized personnel to beat that kind of defense throwing the ball (the Saints, for one, have all three).

We don't. We beat cover 2 by forcing teams not to run cover 2. And you can only do that by averaging like 7 yards a carry against it. Which we're not. It wouldn't shock me to learn that 80% of Henne's preparation for this season was based around getting single high looks consistently throughout games. It probably never occurred to them they wouldn't be able to gash every 7 man front they were faced with.

hooshoops
10-07-2010, 09:49 AM
good post magoo...i'll take a look for you and see if smith did in fact play some ss...although my initial reaction to that is an auto fail

but i have to say that while the press may be smiths strength i don't consider it much of one given how much he gives guys free inside releases at the los and has average at best cod

anyways...i'll check it out

TedSlimmJr
10-07-2010, 12:18 PM
Dobbins is Crowder's backup, and has played like a backup so far. It's sad, really, because I was hoping for more. And this from someone who's in the minority on here and actually likes Crowder, even though he always strikes the eye as eminently upgradeable (and will have to be, I'd say, before we get serious about the Big Dance).

Was I also the only one to see Sean Smith getting some serious looks at strong safety Moday night? I got so disgusted I deleted the game right after it was over, then stumbled out into the street and killed the first thing I saw, which unfortunately was a paraplegic social worker (ok, so not that part). But I'm pretty sure I saw him at safety last night. I have never liked that idea as Sean's forte is and always will be bump and run and his burst and COD in zone leave much to be desired, but it was certainly interesting to see. If you get a chance, take a peek and tell me what you see, and try to pretend for a minute that you don't actually want Sean Smith's arms and legs amputated, infected with syphillis, and reattached (to steal a joke from SNL).

I agree about McQuistan. They say beauty is only skin deep, but ugly's to the bone. Well, Pat McQuistan is both ugly and talentless. A straight up Flounder. "Fat, stiff and clueless is no way to go through the NFL, son." Makes you wonder how bad Cory Proctor must be, and just what the hell's wrong with Donald Thomas (seriously, was he bitten in half by a shark or something? Did he de-foul Parcells' private commode? One of these days someone is going to have to explain it to me. Hopefully they speak very slowly and use visual aids).

I want to take a look at Green Bay's defense and see what they run. For our sake I hope they run a defense similar to the Jets. We seem to know what to do with that. Also it seems like Nick Barnett's out for the year, which makes him and Morgan Burnett pretty key recent losses that Washington is probably too inept to exploit. People on here are freaking out and spouting off idiocy in very unattractive and stupid ways, but I haven't seen more than a few posts recognizing the fact that the key problem with our offense isn't Henne, but the fact that we can't run consistently against cover 2. You need an elite quarterback, years of timing and some specialized personnel to beat that kind of defense throwing the ball (the Saints, for one, have all three).

We don't. We beat cover 2 by forcing teams not to run cover 2. And you can only do that by averaging like 7 yards a carry against it. Which we're not. It wouldn't shock me to learn that 80% of Henne's preparation for this season was based around getting single high looks consistently throughout games. It probably never occurred to them they wouldn't be able to gash every 7 man front they were faced with.


Totally agree with you about Sean Smith's best technique being bump-and-run.... Hell I've said from the beginning that Smith is best suited to play certain technique's... But you have to have TWO things above all else in order to play the bump-and-run technique effectively... Recovery speed and ball skills...

Sean Smith has both of these... you don't have to worry so much about what type of release you give the receiver in bump-and-run (something Smith struggles with anyway)... Instead, you let the receiver guide you.. but you have to be extremely sound in your technique and consistency to play this game in and game out... Most of all, your pass rush has to effectively get to the quarterback...


The problem with the offense is.... the offense...


It's all based on controlling the line of scrimmage... and Miami isn't doing that. Miami's offense has to run the football and be in 3rd down and short-manageable situations with Chad Henne... no matter what type of defense the opposition is playing..

As I've said all along, Henne is stuck between being a game manager and playing like Penny-Lite (which doesn't fit his style), nor is he able to do it effectively when Miami can't run the football well enough to get themselves in these 3rd down and short-manageable situations...

Which leads to my second point...., when Henning opens up the offense and puts Henne in the shotgun and forces him to be a gunslinger, it's not something they've practiced, nor the philosophy that they've preached to him...


Basically, myself and my good friend Fish-Head dedicated an entire thread back before the season started to the notion that these guys COULD NOT PANIC when Henne struggles and throw the Pennington band-aid on the offense in order to save Sparano's job... he's overmatched no matter who his quarterback is... but they at least have to find out if Henne is the guy or not... above all else.

I'm already convinced about what is and what ain't reguarding most things involved with this team.. the only thing left for me personally to figure out.. is Chad Henne.. and I need to see him play in order to do that... not Chad Pennington or Tyler ****ing Thigpen.


The problems with this team in order of significance are...

1. Dan Henning

2. Tony Sparano

3. Chad Henne




Henning has to go... period.

hooshoops
10-07-2010, 02:41 PM
i don't agree that sean smith has recovery speed...not at all

what baffles me regarding the offense is that we run play action into cover 2 fronts where the only option for henne minus forcing the ball into coverage is throwing the ball into the flat to the rb for short gains...

why doesn't henne have the freedom to check out of some of these calls by now??? and why aren't we sending fasano down the seam into the weakness in cover 2 to sit down between the lbs and the safeties more often...

i agree with the point slimm made about shotgun and henne being unfamiliar with it...it goes against everything that this oc and coaching staff is preaching to him...

and something has got to give...my vote is dan henning

Tailgater
10-07-2010, 03:18 PM
Oh, okay. I should have guessed you were trying to make a joke rather than a serious point, because there's just no way to defend the notion that the Patriots are a team stocked with elite talent, which you'd frankly expect them to be given how brilliantly they've manipulated their ability to trade players for picks and picks for picks.

It's funny, though, the irony of all this. According to one side of this, anyone who thinks the Dolphins have talent and Sparano is a good coach has a "disease", and on the other side, anyone who criticizes our talent, our coaches or our FO isn't a "fan."

That's what funny about this. But by "funny," of course, I mean pathetic. There's seriously right now a group of posters who come on and crow when we win, and another group who come on and crow when we lose, as if they're not so much rooting for the team or analyzing what happens as they're rooting for their predictions to come true.

I'm a Pats fan and I agree with you...to a point. Loaded with elite talent? Not really. Hard to get elite talent when the team is selecting at the bottom of the draft, year after year.

None of the recent picks on defense are elite, though Mayo might become elite (coincidently their only top 10 pick since 2001) but many are or will be solid players for years to come.

This defense will get better as the season progresses. The players just need to learn to do their jobs, and only their jobs, and not try to do more - thats what's leaving those huge gaps in the middle. They showed a bit of the on MNF, with Ninkovich in the right spot to make the picks, spots the coaches told him to be in. That's why their D was so good for years, even with 'old, slow' players. They need that disipline now or the season will go down the drain quickly.

I don't think there's a chance in hell that they go after Jackson. Too much money and one more DUI from a year long suspension.

Tailgater
10-07-2010, 03:34 PM
No he's not!!! The draft guru went to KC. Pioli is the draft guru. The Chiefs will only get better while the Pats start missing on picks.

Pioli was responsible for the Pats drafts from 2005 - 2007. I think there's one player left on the roster from those years (Gostkowski). Their selections have improved since he left. I expect them to be even better now that they'll have a pick in the top 10 (Raiders) and hopefully trade up with the ammo they have. If there's a rookie salary cap in place, that will happen.

Tailgater
10-07-2010, 03:37 PM
2007 ring a bell? 16-0 regular season? Lost the SB in the final 2 minutes on a fluke pay?

Mr. Magoo
10-08-2010, 02:28 AM
Totally agree with you about Sean Smith's best technique being bump-and-run.... Hell I've said from the beginning that Smith is best suited to play certain technique's... But you have to have TWO things above all else in order to play the bump-and-run technique effectively... Recovery speed and ball skills...

Sean Smith has both of these... you don't have to worry so much about what type of release you give the receiver in bump-and-run (something Smith struggles with anyway)... Instead, you let the receiver guide you.. but you have to be extremely sound in your technique and consistency to play this game in and game out... Most of all, your pass rush has to effectively get to the quarterback...

The problem with the offense is.... the offense...

It's all based on controlling the line of scrimmage... and Miami isn't doing that. Miami's offense has to run the football and be in 3rd down and short-manageable situations with Chad Henne... no matter what type of defense the opposition is playing..

As I've said all along, Henne is stuck between being a game manager and playing like Penny-Lite (which doesn't fit his style), nor is he able to do it effectively when Miami can't run the football well enough to get themselves in these 3rd down and short-manageable situations...

Which leads to my second point...., when Henning opens up the offense and puts Henne in the shotgun and forces him to be a gunslinger, it's not something they've practiced, nor the philosophy that they've preached to him...

Basically, myself and my good friend Fish-Head dedicated an entire thread back before the season started to the notion that these guys COULD NOT PANIC when Henne struggles and throw the Pennington band-aid on the offense in order to save Sparano's job... he's overmatched no matter who his quarterback is... but they at least have to find out if Henne is the guy or not... above all else.

I'm already convinced about what is and what ain't reguarding most things involved with this team.. the only thing left for me personally to figure out.. is Chad Henne.. and I need to see him play in order to do that... not Chad Pennington or Tyler ****ing Thigpen.

The problems with this team in order of significance are...

1. Dan Henning

2. Tony Sparano

3. Chad Henne

Henning has to go... period.

You forgot about the other necessary skill needed to play in bump and run: good tackling skills. Jason Allen is teaching us that lesson every Sunday.

As for Henne being "stuck," this kind of touches on something I've been going back and forth on in my mind... whether having Pennington as a mentor is really helping or hurting him. On the one hand it's tantalizing to give the guy a role model who's his opposite in every way. In some ideal world where that relationship works to combine them you could be talking about a guy who's a Pennington with superior arm strength (ie, Peyton Manning).

On the other hand you have the adage that sometimes it's not so much better to work on your weaknesses so much as it is to perfect your strengths. I remember having this debate about Cameron Wake this offseason. Pretend for a minute we're his coach. Do we advise him to spend most of his time working on his coverage skills or on perfecting his pass rush moves? Which do we think is going to have the bigger impact?

I think it's the latter. I wasn't really sure at the beginning of the offseason but I was eventually brought along by the logic of the situation.

The notion with Henne is not quite so cut and dried but it is similar. As steady as he played in Michigan's ho-hum offense, which was so similar to pro-offenses in it's reliance on the running game and play action it made him easy to spot as a relatively sure thing as at least a competent QB, it's impossible to ignore his best game as a collegian was his final bowl game against Florida, where he orchestrated a wide open offense and gashed a Florida defense full of multiple pro-ready prospects. He took all kinds of chances in that game, and succeeded against that defense because he's blessed with great arm strength, bravery and underrated accuracy.

This idea: to Pennington-ify his game... it's a tantalizing prospect to say the least. But at the end of the day we might be trying to hit too much of a home run. Every quarterback in the league has basic and unfixable flaws. Any knowledgeable fan can point them out without any trouble. Henne certainly has his. I don't go along with the opinion that just because he's awkward and slow in front of the camera he's a dullard. Being that way in public certainly never slowed down Joe Montana. But I don't think even in an idealized situation we're talking about a guy who's going to go out there and beat a defense into submission with his mind, the way Drew Brees or Peyton Manning can.

I still go back and forth on this... on what exactly to do with him. Thankfully I'm not a coach. But I'm certainly concerned we could be breeding the aggressiveness out of his game, which given his natural daring and arm strength should be a great equalizer for his flaws. It's certainly got to be confusing for him to be coached to be one quarterback on first and second down and on third and short, and then on third and long, when you really need an elite QB -- and where Chad Pennington certainly has very little ground to be authoritative -- he's put in a situation where he has to cut it loose and that's simply not what they spend a lot of time on.

As for the notion that we have to get rid of Henning, I dismiss that out of hand. The offensive coordinator is the easiest person on the team to scapegoat, and their firing generally accomplishes nothing. Take a look at San Francisco, who just jettisoned their long tenured OC. Anyone want to make a bet whether that offense improves appreciably? You and hoops are too well informed to use the term I'd generally reserve for the bumpkins who resort to this knee jerk opinion but the basic idea is I consider it to me poor statesmanship, for lack of a better word. The precedent here is well formed and long standing.

Henning has proved his worth to me. Look what his loss did to the Carolina Panthers and the performance of Jake Delhomme. Look at the basic stats and points per game his offenses have put up. The guy basically runs a simple offense, I agree, but he does so out of unpredictable formations and personnel groups and 95% of the time calls an intelligent, slightly off kilter kind of game. Sometimes he outsmarts himself but I'll take that every day over a blockhead like Kippy Brown.

I'll never understand the Wildcat call on third and six but he also made a beautifully timed screen pass call to Ricky Williams for a TD. We were driving against cover 2 and he anticipated the moment when Belichick would lose patience and go for the jugular brilliantly. I've seen the Dolphins waste that kind of opportunity too many times to watch it seized and not appreciate it.

TedSlimmJr
10-08-2010, 05:16 PM
You forgot about the other necessary skill needed to play in bump and run: good tackling skills. Jason Allen is teaching us that lesson every Sunday.

As for Henne being "stuck," this kind of touches on something I've been going back and forth on in my mind... whether having Pennington as a mentor is really helping or hurting him. On the one hand it's tantalizing to give the guy a role model who's his opposite in every way. In some ideal world where that relationship works to combine them you could be talking about a guy who's a Pennington with superior arm strength (ie, Peyton Manning).

On the other hand you have the adage that sometimes it's not so much better to work on your weaknesses so much as it is to perfect your strengths. I remember having this debate about Cameron Wake this offseason. Pretend for a minute we're his coach. Do we advise him to spend most of his time working on his coverage skills or on perfecting his pass rush moves? Which do we think is going to have the bigger impact?

I think it's the latter. I wasn't really sure at the beginning of the offseason but I was eventually brought along by the logic of the situation.

The notion with Henne is not quite so cut and dried but it is similar. As steady as he played in Michigan's ho-hum offense, which was so similar to pro-offenses in it's reliance on the running game and play action it made him easy to spot as a relatively sure thing as at least a competent QB, it's impossible to ignore his best game as a collegian was his final bowl game against Florida, where he orchestrated a wide open offense and gashed a Florida defense full of multiple pro-ready prospects. He took all kinds of chances in that game, and succeeded against that defense because he's blessed with great arm strength, bravery and underrated accuracy.

This idea: to Pennington-ify his game... it's a tantalizing prospect to say the least. But at the end of the day we might be trying to hit too much of a home run. Every quarterback in the league has basic and unfixable flaws. Any knowledgeable fan can point them out without any trouble. Henne certainly has his. I don't go along with the opinion that just because he's awkward and slow in front of the camera he's a dullard. Being that way in public certainly never slowed down Joe Montana. But I don't think even in an idealized situation we're talking about a guy who's going to go out there and beat a defense into submission with his mind, the way Drew Brees or Peyton Manning can.

I still go back and forth on this... on what exactly to do with him. Thankfully I'm not a coach. But I'm certainly concerned we could be breeding the aggressiveness out of his game, which given his natural daring and arm strength should be a great equalizer for his flaws. It's certainly got to be confusing for him to be coached to be one quarterback on first and second down and on third and short, and then on third and long, when you really need an elite QB -- and where Chad Pennington certainly has very little ground to be authoritative -- he's put in a situation where he has to cut it loose and that's simply not what they spend a lot of time on.

As for the notion that we have to get rid of Henning, I dismiss that out of hand. The offensive coordinator is the easiest person on the team to scapegoat, and their firing generally accomplishes nothing. Take a look at San Francisco, who just jettisoned their long tenured OC. Anyone want to make a bet whether that offense improves appreciably? You and hoops are too well informed to use the term I'd generally reserve for the bumpkins who resort to this knee jerk opinion but the basic idea is I consider it to me poor statesmanship, for lack of a better word. The precedent here is well formed and long standing.

Henning has proved his worth to me. Look what his loss did to the Carolina Panthers and the performance of Jake Delhomme. Look at the basic stats and points per game his offenses have put up. The guy basically runs a simple offense, I agree, but he does so out of unpredictable formations and personnel groups and 95% of the time calls an intelligent, slightly off kilter kind of game. Sometimes he outsmarts himself but I'll take that every day over a blockhead like Kippy Brown.

I'll never understand the Wildcat call on third and six but he also made a beautifully timed screen pass call to Ricky Williams for a TD. We were driving against cover 2 and he anticipated the moment when Belichick would lose patience and go for the jugular brilliantly. I've seen the Dolphins waste that kind of opportunity too many times to watch it seized and not appreciate it.



I was under the assumption that the observation "you have to be extremely sound in your technique and consistency to play this technique game in and game out" covered the basic fundamental aspect of tackling... I apologize...


Pennington has done more for Chad Henne than this coaching staff is even capable of... Having Pennington serve as a mentor to Henne is only beneficial if they're not tempted to pull Henne when he struggles and insert Pennington in an attempt to save the Bifecta's ***...

The quarterback position is unique and different from any other position... you're not asked to defeat only the guy in front of you, or win one-on-one battles... you're required to beat 3 separate units, and all 11 guys on defense... every single play.. whether it be physically (all the aspects of a required throw) or mentally (checking out of bad play calls)...

At the quarterback position, it's about minimizing your flaws first and foremost over improving your strengths... negative plays from the QB position are always going to be more detrimental to the team than positive plays are going to be beneficial... If you can't improve your weaknesses enough first to the point that you can execute a drive (much less a game plan) without killer mistakes, you're not going to playing enough to improve your strengths anyway... your *** is going to be on the bench..


Henne's performance against Florida was by far the best of his career in a big game.... but it was also against a secondary full of freshmen and youngsters... where were the pro-ready prospects? Derrick Harvey? Laughable...





The bottom line is, Henning needs to go because he's not getting it done... nor is he going to be the guy that gets this offense over the hump in the long run.. He costs the team momentum CONSTANTLY... not SUDDENLY.. but CONSTANTLY... with his playcalling. It's the OC's responsibility to work in conjunction with the position coaches and ensure that HIS offense is executing.. from the blocking, to the timing, to the route running, to the receivers not dropping passes... to calling plays that work...

The 49ers didn't fire their OC because it was going to make their offense immediately better, but because they could've paid a monkey $6/hour and achieved the same results...

Miami has already fired everyone else over the past 2 seasons, now there's only 2 guys left to fall on the sword..

...but glad to hear myself and whoever else have somehow managed to avoid the dreaded "bumpkin" label of Magoo... I consider it an overwhelming success...

Mr. Magoo
10-08-2010, 06:09 PM
I was under the assumption that the observation "you have to be extremely sound in your technique and consistency to play this technique game in and game out" covered the basic fundamental aspect of tackling... I apologize...

Pennington has done more for Chad Henne than this coaching staff is even capable of... Having Pennington serve as a mentor to Henne is only beneficial if they're not tempted to pull Henne when he struggles and insert Pennington in an attempt to save the Bifecta's ***...

The quarterback position is unique and different from any other position... you're not asked to defeat only the guy in front of you, or win one-on-one battles... you're required to beat 3 separate units, and all 11 guys on defense... every single play.. whether it be physically (all the aspects of a required throw) or mentally (checking out of bad play calls)...

At the quarterback position, it's about minimizing your flaws first and foremost over improving your strengths... negative plays from the QB position are always going to be more detrimental to the team than positive plays are going to be beneficial... If you can't improve your weaknesses enough first to the point that you can execute a drive (much less a game plan) without killer mistakes, you're not going to playing enough to improve your strengths anyway... your *** is going to be on the bench..

Henne's performance against Florida was by far the best of his career in a big game.... but it was also against a secondary full of freshmen and youngsters... where were the pro-ready prospects? Derrick Harvey? Laughable...

The bottom line is, Henning needs to go because he's not getting it done... nor is he going to be the guy that gets this offense over the hump in the long run.. He costs the team momentum CONSTANTLY... not SUDDENLY.. but CONSTANTLY... with his playcalling. It's the OC's responsibility to work in conjunction with the position coaches and ensure that HIS offense is executing.. from the blocking, to the timing, to the route running, to the receivers not dropping passes... to calling plays that work...

The 49ers didn't fire their OC because it was going to make their offense immediately better, but because they could've paid a monkey $6/hour and achieved the same results...

Miami has already fired everyone else over the past 2 seasons, now there's only 2 guys left to fall on the sword..

...but glad to hear myself and whoever else have somehow managed to avoid the dreaded "bumpkin" label of Magoo... I consider it an overwhelming success...

That Florida defense also had Brandon Spikes, Major Wright, Jermaine Cunningham, Joe Haden and Carlos Dunlap on it. None came out after that season but those are some pretty talented players right there. I was imprecise to use the term "pro ready," but the idea was to separate it from lighting up a defense full of players destined to ask people if they want fries with that.

Either way the important part was that he played his best game against a talented defense in a big situation using an offensive approach that he never really used at Michigan or has with the Dolphins. They spread the ball into four and five wides all game, counting on Henne to make quick reads and good decisions. He also did a great job checking off at the line of scrimmage. At least one run check led to a touchdown.

Anyway the idea is that we all conceptualize Henne has a game manager type who's best off of play action in favorable situations to throw the ball. But it's odd that his best performance in college was running an offense like the Saints run now.

As for the "bumpkin" label. Yes, congratulations. It's indeed dreaded... almost as bad as being diagnosed with "Parcellitis."

TedSlimmJr
10-08-2010, 06:56 PM
Haden, Dunlap and Major Wright were freshmen Magoo... Spikes was a sophomore...as was Cunningham..

That wasn't a good Florida defense, they were young... they averaged giving up almost 30 points per game to D-1 opponents (27.3)..

Henne played well in that game though (finally)... I remember it well.. I remember the attempt to throw a quick screen pass to Jake Long on a tackle eligible play....:lol:

I watched Henne and Flacco both throw in person at the Senior Bowl in Mobile that year... I could go into a semi long-winded, detailed post about my personal evaluations of Henne coming out of college, but to sum it up quickly, it basically falls in the range of "solid"... nothing spectacular...

Although, I liked him better than Flacco due to playing in that pro style offense for 4 years that ingrained BASIC fundamentals under Mike DeBord that would help his transition... (didn't have a ton of film on Flacco due to level of competition, and had questions about him adjusting the to the pro game coming out of that primarily Shotgun offense)... I felt like Henne was the 2nd best quarterback in the draft behind Ryan... and had a significant gap between the two...


Henne has flaws that are the same as they were as a sophomore.... I want to see him overcome those and see significant progress in the next 12 starts that he NEEDS to get in order to decide which way we need to go as a football team...

hooshoops
10-13-2010, 04:40 PM
hey magoo...smith did line up opposite chris clemons in the 2 minute drill defense when we were showing some very soft coverage looks ...y bell taken off the field

i guess that would qualify as ss...

lf911sc
10-17-2010, 12:24 AM
Doesn't surprise me one bit. Belichick does it every year. He is the draft guru

Really? You think he's a draft guru? Since he's taken over the draft, how many studs has he drafted? Especially players that come from out of the named players, those 4th, 5th round unknowns that the better GMs find?

Why is it that since he's run the draft and been in charge of player personnel have the Pats lost their luster? Are they as good as the team Pioli left when he gave up those duties?

lf911sc
10-17-2010, 12:34 AM
Only six of 30 AFC East draftees from 2007 still are with the team that drafted them: two New York Jets, two Miami Dolphins, one New England Patriot and one Bill.

David Harris
Jets traded second-, third- and sixth-round choices to move up and select David Harris.
The Jets were most effective. They drafted just four players. Their first two have been stars, and the last pick helped them acquire a standout receiver. They traded up to select star cornerback Darrelle Revis 14th overall and top inside linebacker David Harris 47th. Seventh-round pick Chansi Stuckey was sent to the Cleveland Browns in the trade that landed receiver Braylon Edwards.

The Patriots were the least efficient on nine picks, their lone keeper was Pro Bowl safety Brandon Meriweather in the first round.

The Dolphins made 10 selections in what was the final draft class for general manager Randy Mueller and the only one for rookie head coach Cam Cameron. They famously misfired on ninth overall pick Ted Ginn, who was traded for a fifth-round pick this offseason, and second-round quarterback John Beck. Still around are defensive tackle Paul Soliai and punter Brandon Fields.

The last man standing from Buffalo's seven-man 2007 draft class is second-round linebacker Paul Posluszny.

Miami Dolphins

Round (Pick)
1st (9) WR Ted Ginn Traded for 2010 5th-rounder
2nd (40) QB John Beck Released 2009
2nd (60) C Samson Satele Traded for 2009 6th-rounder
3rd (71) RB Lorenzo Booker Traded for 2008 4th-rounder
4th (108) DT Paul Soliai Still on team
6th (181) FB Reagan Mauia Released 2008
6th (199) G Drew Mormino Released 2008
7th (219) LB Kelvin Smith Released 2009
7th (225) P Brandon Fields Still on team
7th (238) DE Abraham Wright Released 2008

New England Patriots

Round (Pick)
1st (24) S Brandon Meriweather Still on team
4th (127) DT Kareem Brown Released 2007
5th (171) OT Clint Oldenburg Released 2007
6th (180) LB Justin Rogers Released 2007
6th (202) DB Mike Richardson Released 2009
6th (208) RB Justise Hairston Released 2007
6th (209) OT Corey Hilliard Released 2007
7th (211) LB Oscar Lua Released 2008
7th (247) G Mike Elgin Released 2007

New York Jets

Round (Pick)
1st (14) CB Darrelle Revis Still on team
2nd (47) LB David Harris Still on team
6th (177) OT Jacob Bender Released 2008
7th (235) WR Chansi Stuckey Traded in package for WR Braylon Edwards

dtwisy12
10-18-2010, 12:47 PM
The PATRIOTS have done well in accumulating a lot of draft picks over the last few years, but it seems they've done little w/them. As a footnote, has anyone noticed that since N.E. has been unable to steal opponents' signals, N.E. hasn't been close to winning a SB?

Not a Patriot fan but they went to a Super Bowl undefeated after Spygate. That is pretty close.

Cytheria
10-18-2010, 12:49 PM
Not a Patriot fan but they went to a Super Bowl undefeated after Spygate. That is pretty close.

it was the same year as Spygate.

Tailgater
10-19-2010, 06:49 AM
Pioli was picking the players thru the 2008 draft, then he went to KC in 2009.

It's no coincidence that they cut so many draft picks up until 2009 - they had a roster loaded with savvy vets, and the kids couldn't beat them out for a roster spot. Then, beginning in 2009, when Vrabel & Seymour were traded, Harrison & Bruschi retired, etc, more guys made the roster. Big surprise.

In 2010, the trend continued, with the Pats deciding to keep the kids & cutting a bunch of S/T & backups, like Woods, Alexander, Aiken, etc, going with the young guys. it's working out so far. The defense seems to be getting better game by game.


Really? You think he's a draft guru? Since he's taken over the draft, how many studs has he drafted? Especially players that come from out of the named players, those 4th, 5th round unknowns that the better GMs find?

Why is it that since he's run the draft and been in charge of player personnel have the Pats lost their luster? Are they as good as the team Pioli left when he gave up those duties?

satz
10-20-2010, 11:57 AM
I think its real bizzare when he mentions Seventh-round pick Chansi Stuckey was sent to the in the trade that landed receiver EDWARDS as good
but does not mention
2nd and 7th for Wes Welker
4th Moss

lf911sc
10-21-2010, 05:58 PM
I think its real bizzare when he mentions Seventh-round pick Chansi Stuckey was sent to the in the trade that landed receiver EDWARDS as good
but does not mention
2nd and 7th for Wes Welker
4th Moss

Whats so bizarre? The article is about how the picks that teams used have worked out. The Pats had another 4th round pick, which they used and he is reporting how that picked turned out for NE.

The Stuckey deal was noted because the Jets used an actual pick on Stuckey and he was eventually traded, so it was reported. Again the article deals with players drafted and how they turned out.

Whats the issue there?

zackmandude63
12-16-2010, 10:59 PM
I guess Brady's game really was effectedby losing Moss...

Tailgater
12-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Really? You think he's a draft guru? Since he's taken over the draft, how many studs has he drafted? Especially players that come from out of the named players, those 4th, 5th round unknowns that the better GMs find?

Why is it that since he's run the draft and been in charge of player personnel have the Pats lost their luster? Are they as good as the team Pioli left when he gave up those duties?

Better. Much better.

Does he get s studs left & right? Nope. Hard to do in the bottom of each round, but the two drafts since Pioli left are heads & shoulders above the 2005 - 2008 drafts with Pioli picking the groceries.

With the Pats playing the packers this week, the media have been talking about the Pats 2009 draft day trade with the Packers. The Pack ended up with Clay Mathews, and the Pats ended up with Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and Rob Gronkowski. I'll take that bunch any day. 3 will be starting this Sunday.