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spiketex
04-13-2011, 11:31 AM
The other day I listened to Sirius NFL mock draft and they had Miami taking Clemson's DL Bowers because he was the best player available. I don't see it happening because our DL played well last year and we still have Jared Odrick to come back - he is like another first round addition to team. However, it got me thinking that if a team is just totally committed to the best player available philosophy, we could continue to add defensive linemen, irrespective of the other holes.
Surely the philosophy has to be modified so that priority is given to other team needs. Eg Bowers could be the best player available on our board but if we need a QB, a RB, an OL and a TE, it would be crazy to just pick him if that position is covered.
I think it is 90% likely we go Offense in round 1, irrespective of the BPA. Welcome your thoughts....

nyfinzfan
04-13-2011, 11:36 AM
If he made it that far I DO think theyd snap him up. He was going to be the first pick in the draft until the injury questions popped up. I agree it wouldnt make much sense as D Line is a strength but I dont think they could resist.

nyfinzfan
04-13-2011, 11:37 AM
That being said I dont think he'll drop that far. If he did maybe somebody would want to trade up with us for him!

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 11:40 AM
bowers got a bad grade in the medical recheck this last weekend...sounds like he's gonna drop out of round 1 cause there is major concern about his knee...some say you may get 2 years out of him max

not good...no way i'd take a 4-3 end only anyways to play in a 3-4...medical concerns or not

greasyObnoxious
04-13-2011, 11:46 AM
hm, another Clemson DE that doesn't fit in with the defense? no thanks. i'm a proponent of taking BPA, especially in a potentially shortened camp/pre-season, but taking players who don't fit isn't smart at all.

Aqua and Orange
04-13-2011, 11:49 AM
I think the mock draft folks are largely missing that the Dolphins do a fairly good job of telegraphing their picks with who they meet with several times. I think the list of names they could draft is already set, and is in the "who the dolphins have met with" thread.

spydertl79
04-13-2011, 11:53 AM
No way, why take a risky prospect at a position that we don't need?

Kdawg954
04-13-2011, 11:56 AM
ugh, eerily similar to Merling in the 3-4 . . . just doesn't really fit as an OLB . . . and if you are going to go 3-4 DE, why not JJ Watt or Cam Jordan.

Can Bowers play both positions . . . yea probably, but we don't need any projects that high, especially one with serious injury concerns. Expect him to tumble into the 2nd round where a team like Detroit could take a look.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:00 PM
bowers can't play olb or de in a 3-4...not a chance

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 12:11 PM
I don't think Bowers is better than Aldon Smith anyway. Neither exactly fit in Miami. Bowers is a good candidate to play 3-4 DE, and Smith isn't a good candidate to play 3-4 SOLB. I would, though, consider Smith if he fell. I know the immediate return isn't great, but you can bring him in on passing downs - when we go to the 4-3 looks. You can also bring him in to spell Wake. Also, I think you give yourself trade flexibility with Wake and bring in Wake's eventual successor. I know he doesn't have the best hips, but they are - to my eyes - better than Wake's; again, not saying a whole lot.

I, of course, would only consider Smith if I didn't believe in any of the available QB's.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:14 PM
i would take smith 10 times before i'd take daquan bowers if its for miami...although i still think neither is an ideal 3-4 olb fit...you wanna make a bust pick...draft a guy that doesn't fit your scheme and try to make him into something he's not

TedSlimmJr
04-13-2011, 12:21 PM
i would take smith 10 times before i'd take daquan bowers if its for miami...although i still think neither is an ideal 3-4 olb fit...you wanna make a bust pick...draft a guy that doesn't fit your scheme and try to make him into something he's not

You were a big Bowers proponent hoops, why the change?

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 12:24 PM
i would take smith 10 times before i'd take daquan bowers if its for miami...although i still think neither is an ideal 3-4 olb fit...you wanna make a bust pick...draft a guy that doesn't fit your scheme and try to make him into something he's not

I agree that neither is close to ideal. I only take Smith if it's under the special circumstances that I mentioned. Also, I wouldn't make him play SOLB ever. I would only let him play WOLB when spelling Wake. Again, if he's rushing almost all the time, he becomes more of a 4-3 DE anyway (like Dumervil or Wake). To begin, though, I'd bring him in for Nickel and Dime situations - let Misi and Dansby play as standing LB's (unless Edds takes that spot) - to rush the passer. In today's NFL, where you have teams like the Patriots, Colts, and Packers operating so often out of the shotgun, I think he'd play enough in those situations to be valuable enough initially to make the pick worthwhile (assuming there's no QB) to justify the long-term payout.

---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

Slimm, I haven't heard you talk much about Aldon Smith. I remember you had him ranked behind Kerrigan as a 4-3 DE. Any thoughts?

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:25 PM
You were a big Bowers proponent hoops, why the change?

no...i said imo he would go top 3 but that wasn't because i liked him...i don't think he brings enough pass rush at the pro level to be worth the pick...if bowers knee wasn't an issue though for a 4-3 end i'd take a chance on him in the top 10 probably

but that guys not a 3-4 olb...i liked bowers when he was a freak 265 lb freshman...that kid then was an elite nfl prospect...this bloated 280 plus lb version has lost a lot of the quickness and fluidity that he used to have...he's too heavy imo and has lost a lot of the explosiveness

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 12:26 PM
i would take smith 10 times before i'd take daquan bowers if its for miami...although i still think neither is an ideal 3-4 olb fit...you wanna make a bust pick...draft a guy that doesn't fit your scheme and try to make him into something he's not

I actually think he could play OLB and De in a 34.

He has the size..and the intial punch to play 34 de...but really do we need another 34 de?

I could see him as an OLB too..But its kind of a waste to use him opposite Wake..Unless of course he spells wake which would not be a bad idea.
I really dont see how he lasts to 15 tho...Most think he is the best 4-3 end in the draft...They dont usually last...

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:27 PM
I agree that neither is close to ideal. I only take Smith if it's under the special circumstances that I mentioned. Also, I wouldn't make him play SOLB ever. I would only let him play WOLB when spelling Wake. Again, if he's rushing almost all the time, he becomes more of a 4-3 DE anyway (like Dumervil or Wake). To begin, though, I'd bring him in for Nickel and Dime situations - let Misi and Dansby play as standing LB's (unless Edds takes that spot) - to rush the passer. In today's NFL, where you have teams like the Patriots, Colts, and Packers operating so often out of the shotgun, I think he'd play enough in those situations to be valuable enough initially to make the pick worthwhile (assuming there's no QB) to justify the long-term payout.

---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

Slimm, I haven't heard you talk much about Aldon Smith. I remember you had him ranked behind Kerrigan as a 4-3 DE. Any thoughts?

so you are drafting a guy in the top 15 to be a situational pass rusher initially??? thats the read i'm getting...thats bad value with a pick that high...i want an impact starter from the get in the top 20...nothing short

and thats the problem with aldon smith for us...he's not an every down player in our scheme from jump

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:29 PM
I actually think he could play OLB and De in a 34.

He has the size..and the intial punch to play 34 de...but really do we need another 34 de?

I could see him as an OLB too..But its kind of a waste to use him opposite Wake..Unless of course he spells wake which would not be a bad idea.
I really dont see how he lasts to 15 tho...Most think he is the best 4-3 end in the draft...They dont usually last...

brian cox was killin the kid bout how stiff he was in lb drills at his pro day and you want to play that kid at olb??? no thanks...olb or 3-4 de

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 12:29 PM
no...i said imo he would go top 3 but that wasn't because i liked him...i don't think he brings enough pass rush at the pro level to be worth the pick...if bowers knee wasn't an issue though for a 4-3 end i'd take a chance on him in the top 10 probably

but that guys not a 3-4 olb...i liked bowers when he was a freak 265 lb freshman...that kid then was an elite nfl prospect...this bloated 280 plus lb version has lost a lot of the quickness and fluidity that he used to have...he's too heavy imo and has lost a lot of the explosiveness

I agree that he's not an explosive player in his current form. He's good, but a lot of his sacks were of the Joey Porter (while in Miami) variety - coverage sacks.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:34 PM
I agree that he's not an explosive player in his current form. He's good, but a lot of his sacks were of the Joey Porter (while in Miami) variety - coverage sacks.

the problem with bowers other than the knee is this version doesn't have the quick get off that he possessed when he was a freshman...i don't see explosive get off at the snap...your not just gonna go through nfl tackles you're gonna have to be able to gain the edge...to me he looks like a 5 sack guy in the nfl...its not worth a top 5 pick...add in the medical and its not worth talking about especially for a 3-4

not a fit at all

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 12:36 PM
brian cox was killin the kid bout how stiff he was in lb drills at his pro day and you want to play that kid at olb??? no thanks...olb or 3-4 de


Yea but think in terms of Miami's scheme..If he is just going to come off the edge in base 34 to spell Wake does it really matter how fluid his hips are? If he is asked to drop in coverage I think that comes into play? Then if we go to our base 43 look he can play strong side and spell wake again...Our pass rush was really lacking besides wake... Bowers also played alot of 3 tech in college...He could profile to a 5 tech in a 34...Tho he would have to add weight..and to me its really an ego thing..like Merling..Can he be the guy in the drenches play in and play out?

TedSlimmJr
04-13-2011, 12:38 PM
Health issues aside, Bowers was always the most overrated defensive line prospect in the draft in my opinion, even for a LDE in a 4-3. I just never saw much of what he accomplished during his "breakout" season translating into NFL production. College sacks and NFL sacks are two different things... Bowers was getting college sacks and TFL's...

Aldon Smith is a better prospect than Bowers in my opinion, but I don't like him as much as Quinn as a RDE, or making the switch to linebacker. I don't like either Aldon Smith or Kerrigan making the transition to linebacker, but I'd try Smith there before I would Kerrigan.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Yea but think in terms of Miami's scheme..If he is just going to come off the edge in base 34 to spell Wake does it really matter how fluid his hips are? If he is asked to drop in coverage I think that comes into play? Then if we go to our base 43 look he can play strong side and spell wake again...Our pass rush was really lacking besides wake... Bowers also played alot of 3 tech in college...He could profile to a 5 tech in a 34...Tho he would have to add weight..and to me its really an ago thing..like Merling..Can he be the guy in the drenches play in and play out?

i'm not taking wake off the field for daquan bowers...ever...wakes explosive as heck...your trying to fit a round peg in a square hole

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 12:40 PM
so you are drafting a guy in the top 15 to be a situational pass rusher initially??? thats the read i'm getting...thats bad value with a pick that high...i want an impact starter from the get in the top 20...nothing short

and thats the problem with aldon smith for us...he's not an every down player in our scheme from jump

Like I said, it's have to be under special circumstances. I don't see Prince falling, and Peterson obviously won't fall - not that we really need a CB that early anyway. I want a QB, but if Mallett gets gobbled up and they're not sold on Ponder (I like him, but I'd be nervous drafting him), where are we? Do we reach on Pouncey? I agree he's a stud, but I think most of us agree that it's hard to justify drafting a Guard THAT high. I don't see J. Jones as an ideal compliment to Marshall, and he won't be there anyway. I mean, I'd take him, but he won't be there. As much as I like Carimi, it's hard for me to justify the logic in drafting him - unless the regime truly believe that Carey is on the outs. I don't like the idea of kicking him inside. If he's that far gone, he's likely THAT far gone.

If Ingram is healthy, the bang for your buck is better with him in the short term - no question. But, that's still and if, and there are a ton of RB's in the draft who I like a lot. Hard for me to go RB that high - even though Ingram is an outstanding prospect. If I'm absolutely convinced he's healthy, and Mallett isn't there, and I'm not sold on Ponder, I go Ingram.

Next option would be trade down. But, I wouldn't trade completely out of the 1st, and I would only do it if the compensation is good.

So, in my mind, it's conceivable that Smith would be the best option at #15. You're talking about a guy who would play in some of the most critical situations - during 2-minute drives, etc., and a guy who would give Wake some rest. You're also talking about a guy would would play A LOT against some of the best teams in the league (teams who spread it out for their star QB's). I mean, J. Pierre-Paul went right around #15 last year based on his future payoff. Smith is much more polished and would see the field much more often (I believe), and you still have that future payoff.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:41 PM
Health issues aside, Bowers was always the most overrated defensive line prospect in the draft in my opinion, even for a LDE in a 4-3. I just never saw much of what he accomplished during his "breakout" season translating into NFL production. College sacks and NFL sacks are two different things... Bowers was getting college sacks and TFL's...

Aldon Smith is a better prospect than Bowers in my opinion, but I don't like him as much as Quinn as a RDE, or making the switch to linebacker. I don't like either Aldon Smith or Kerrigan making the transition to linebacker, but I'd try Smith there before I would Kerrigan.

slimm...remember bowers when he was a freshman...remember me talking to you about how rediculous that kid was??? that kid was premium pro talent...he spent way too much time in buffet lines and lost so much of what he was

i agree with kerrigan...no way 3-4 olb...robert quinn now thats some elite talent there...aldon smith has that explosive quality you look for in edge rushers...

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:45 PM
Like I said, it's have to be under special circumstances. I don't see Prince falling, and Peterson obviously won't fall - not that we really need a CB that early anyway. I want a QB, but if Mallett gets gobbled up and they're not sold on Ponder (I like him, but I'd be nervous drafting him), where are we? Do we reach on Pouncey? I agree he's a stud, but I think most of us agree that it's hard to justify drafting a Guard THAT high. I don't see J. Jones as an ideal compliment to Marshall, and he won't be there anyway. I mean, I'd take him, but he won't be there. As much as I like Carimi, it's hard for me to justify the logic in drafting him - unless the regime truly believe that Carey is on the outs. I don't like the idea of kicking him inside. If he's that far gone, he's likely THAT far gone.

If Ingram is healthy, the bang for your buck is better with him in the short term - no question. But, that's still and if, and there are a ton of RB's in the draft who I like a lot. Hard for me to go RB that high - even though Ingram is an outstanding prospect. If I'm absolutely convinced he's healthy, and Mallett isn't there, and I'm not sold on Ponder, I go Ingram.

Next option would be trade down. But, I wouldn't trade completely out of the 1st, and I would only do it if the compensation is good.

So, in my mind, it's conceivable that Smith would be the best option at #15. You're talking about a guy who would play in some of the most critical situations - during 2-minute drives, etc., and a guy who would give Wake some rest. You're also talking about a guy would would play A LOT against some of the best teams in the league (teams who spread it out for their star QB's). I mean, J. Pierre-Paul went right around #15 last year based on his future payoff. Smith is much more polished and would see the field much more often (I believe), and you still have that future payoff.

its a no brainer for me...if mallet is gone and ingrams knee checks out i'm taking ingram...game set match...that guys fits what we want to do on offense...every down value from jump street...pouncey or ponder i like pouncey more but i think i would lean the qb...but either at #15 is overdrafting...no question in my mind

if i can trade down into the early 20's i'd be on it

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 12:45 PM
Health issues aside, Bowers was always the most overrated defensive line prospect in the draft in my opinion, even for a LDE in a 4-3. I just never saw much of what he accomplished during his "breakout" season translating into NFL production. College sacks and NFL sacks are two different things... Bowers was getting college sacks and TFL's...

Aldon Smith is a better prospect than Bowers in my opinion, but I don't like him as much as Quinn as a RDE, or making the switch to linebacker. I don't like either Aldon Smith or Kerrigan making the transition to linebacker, but I'd try Smith there before I would Kerrigan.

I would only tolerate Smith as a 3-4 OLB if he were playing a position like Wake. I think he's a much better tackler in the open field than Wake, and I think his hips are a little better. Not ideal, but if you're telling him to go get the QB the vast majority of the time, I think he's athletic enough. I think Quinn is a better OLB convert prospect. To my eyes, though, Smith gets to the QB quicker than Quinn. I see a guy who tests an O-lineman's ability to change direction and who has devastating hands to take advantage of any issues with balance. I also see the best inside move I have in a long time. His inside move is almost as impressive - again, to me - as Von Miller's burst. Why do you like Quinn better at RDE?

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 12:47 PM
its a no brainer for me...if mallet is gone and ingrams knee checks out i'm taking ingram...game set match...that guys fits what we want to do on offense...every down value from jump street...pouncey or ponder i like pouncey more but i think i would lean the qb...but either at #15 is overdrafting...no question in my mind

I think I'd have to agree. I like him as a prospect better than I did A. P. I think he'll do more good for your team. I haven't heard Slimm rag on A. P., but I'd imagine his fumbling issues would give him ulcers if A. P. played for 'Bama or Miami.

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 12:50 PM
its a no brainer for me...if mallet is gone and ingrams knee checks out i'm taking ingram...game set match...that guys fits what we want to do on offense...every down value from jump street...pouncey or ponder i like pouncey more but i think i would lean the qb...but either at #15 is overdrafting...no question in my mind

if i can trade down into the early 20's i'd be on it

I would like Ingram...He def does fit what we wanna do....Its too early to give up on Jerry as a guard prospect too...Taking pouncy at 15 would not be ideal..

I too would love to trade down and see whats left..I would like to see that happen.. Ingram has everything you want in a back plus he is a winner..Gotta love that in a ball carrier.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:50 PM
I would only tolerate Smith as a 3-4 OLB if he were playing a position like Wake. I think he's a much better tackler in the open field than Wake, and I think his hips are a little better. Not ideal, but if you're telling him to go get the QB the vast majority of the time, I think he's athletic enough. I think Quinn is a better OLB convert prospect. To my eyes, though, Smith gets to the QB quicker than Quinn. I see a guy who tests an O-lineman's ability to change direction and who has devastating hands to take advantage of any issues with balance. I also see the best inside move I have in a long time. His inside move is almost as impressive - again, to me - as Von Miller's burst. Why do you like Quinn better at RDE?

why the heck you gonna take someone in the top 15 to play the same position as the guy you have in house in his prime who's worst case top 5 in the league of 3-4 wolbs??? i agree that if smith came to miami i would plug him at wolb but dang...you got a bell cow there already...not to mention smith at olb is quite a projection

go fill another need with the pick

TedSlimmJr
04-13-2011, 12:54 PM
slimm...remember bowers when he was a freshman...remember me talking to you about how rediculous that kid was??? that kid was premium pro talent...he spent way too much time in buffet lines and lost so much of what he was

i agree with kerrigan...no way 3-4 olb...robert quinn now thats some elite talent there...aldon smith has that explosive quality you look for in edge rushers...


Bowers didn't produce as a freshman either... he had 1 sack, and that was against the Citadel. He never lived up to he recruiting hype at Clemson until this year..

I've never been fond of Clemson defensive ends (Merling, Gaines Adams, Ricky Sapp, Bowers, etc.) I've never liked any of them.

Clemson defensive tackles are a different story... I've always like some of their defensive tackles, you can get some good players there (Chester McGlockton, Trevor Pryce, etc.) Hell, I like Jarvis Jenkins..

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 12:54 PM
why the heck you gonna take someone in the top 15 to play the same position as the guy you have in house in his prime who's worst case top 5 in the league of 3-4 wolbs??? i agree that if smith came to miami i would plug him at wolb but dang...you got a bell cow there already...not to mention smith at olb is quite a projection

go fill another need with the pick

Wake is 29 tho right? He aint getting any young..If he goes down..Misi is our primary pass rusher..That aint good news...Nothign wrong with stock piling pass rusher's..Value wise to me its not great since we do have alot of needs..

foozool13
04-13-2011, 12:55 PM
The BPA philosophy is a very good way to go...Now at the same time you dont HAVE to pick the highest rated player if for instance the gap between them and the next person is minimal. You could take the 2nd BPA and get a quality player especially at 15.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Bowers didn't produce as a freshman either... he had 1 sack, and that was against the Citadel. He never lived up to he recruiting hype at Clemson until this year..

I've never been fond of Clemson defensive ends (Merling, Gaines Adams, Ricky Sapp, Bowers, etc.) I've never liked any of them.

Clemson defensive tackles are a different story... I've always like some of their defensive tackles, you can get some good players there (Chester McGlockton, Trevor Pryce, etc.) Hell, I like Jarvis Jenkins..

what??? so you don't recall us talking about how impressive bowers was...whatever...i know i liked him an awful lot when i first saw him at clemson before he carbo loaded

greasyObnoxious
04-13-2011, 12:57 PM
Wake is 29 tho right? He aint getting any young..If he goes down..Misi is our primary pass rusher..That aint good news...Nothign wrong with stock piling pass rusher's..Value wise to me its not great since we do have alot of needs..

go pick Chris Carter in round 4 if you want to add depth and a developmental player at OLB. i'm with hoops here. there's room for only one pass-rushing specialist in Nolan's scheme. that's Wake. he's not coming off the field no matter what. i would love to get some depth, too, but round 1 isn't the place to look for that IMO.

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 12:59 PM
why the heck you gonna take someone in the top 15 to play the same position as the guy you have in house in his prime who's worst case top 5 in the league of 3-4 wolbs??? i agree that if smith came to miami i would plug him at wolb but dang...you got a bell cow there already...not to mention smith at olb is quite a projection

go fill another need with the pick

Wake is about 30. I think you'd truly be taking BPA, and Wake is a hot commodity - or at least should be. He could potentially help you snag a top-tier QB next year. Say Miami is drafting around 15 or worse next year (likely if they don't get a QB). If Barkley is there around 4 or 5 (or even 2 or 3) and a team doesn't need a QB (maybe a team that drafted Gabbert or Newton in the '11 draft), if you have A. Smith, you could feel good about packaging Wake and some picks to move up and get your franchise QB. A lot of conjecture, I know.

Bottom line: at 15, assuming we don't get Mallett and that Ingram's knee does not check out, Smith is going to be BPA on my board, and we're going to either reach for a position of need or stand by our board and go BPA. If "our" board is like mine, Smith is likely BPA (if he's there). With the way the league is going to a spread passing attack so often and the way we go 4-down in our Nickel sets, I think you can justify the pick.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 01:00 PM
Wake is 29 tho right? He aint getting any young..If he goes down..Misi is our primary pass rusher..That aint good news...Nothign wrong with stock piling pass rusher's..Value wise to me its not great since we do have alot of needs..

wakes got 5 more years of high end play in him...he's a pup by nfl terms...i know misi as the primary pass rusher is bad news...i shouted from the dang mountain tops that the guys a one trick pony as a pass rusher prior to the draft last year and at pick #40 he was overdrafted cause he didn't provide enough high end pass rush talent...you guys thought i was crazy

so now look you've got a top 40 pick just last year who can't take heat off of wake and provide consistent pressure you drafted to set the edge and cover...but you don't ask the solb to cover the te down the field anyways...mostly drop into zones and cover the flats

color me not surprised it shook out this way

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 01:00 PM
go pick Chris Carter in round 4 if you want to add depth and a developmental player at OLB. i'm with hoops here. there's room for only one pass-rushing specialist in Nolan's scheme. that's Wake. he's not coming off the field no matter what. i would love to get some depth, too, but round 1 isn't the place to look for that IMO.

Yea, I agree if you think there is someone that can contribute in the later rounds and can also develop I would not mind us going that route....

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 01:00 PM
go pick Chris Carter in round 4 if you want to add depth and a developmental player at OLB. i'm with hoops here. there's room for only one pass-rushing specialist in Nolan's scheme. that's Wake. he's not coming off the field no matter what. i would love to get some depth, too, but round 1 isn't the place to look for that IMO.

Not true. If you remember correctly, we played a lot of 4-down with Misi and Wake playing DE.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 01:01 PM
go pick Chris Carter in round 4 if you want to add depth and a developmental player at OLB. i'm with hoops here. there's room for only one pass-rushing specialist in Nolan's scheme. that's Wake. he's not coming off the field no matter what. i would love to get some depth, too, but round 1 isn't the place to look for that IMO.

exactly

TedSlimmJr
04-13-2011, 01:03 PM
what??? so you don't recall us talking about how impressive bowers was...whatever...i know i liked him an awful lot when i first saw him at clemson before he carbo loaded

I remember you liking him, although I've never been impressed with Bowers. He's on my overrated list of defensive line prospects I made back in August even prior to the start of this season...

When I look at the film of his "breakout" season, I don't see a guy who can beat NFL offensive tackles with his first step or with speed. I think he's a 5-7 sack guy in the NFL. I wouldn't take a healthy Bowers in the top 20 picks..

greasyObnoxious
04-13-2011, 01:03 PM
Not true. If you remember correctly, we played a lot of 4-down with Misi and Wake playing DE.

every team will play 4-down with two DE's occasionally. to be honest, i don't know how much we did it. Denver didn't do it a lot under Nolan, but i guess if we got another premier pass-rusher, Nolan would figure out a way to get him involved.

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 01:03 PM
wakes got 5 more years of high end play in him...he's a pup by nfl terms...i know misi as the primary pass rusher is bad news...i shouted from the dang mountain tops that the guys a one trick pony as a pass rusher prior to the draft last year and at pick #40 he was overdrafted cause he didn't provide enough high end pass rush talent...you guys thought i was crazy

so now look you've got a top 40 pick just last year who can't take heat off of wake and provide consistent pressure you drafted to set the edge and cover...but you don't ask the solb to cover the te down the field anyways...mostly drop into zones and cover the flats

color me not surprised it shook out this way

Yea he but he was asked to face the LT more often than not...You really cant expect him to win that battle a whole heck of alot. At least not yet..
He he can develop some more pass rush moves then you never know..He was stonewalled alot by those LT's tho..Big concern...I think he just died out..He lost that quickness...So did Wake too tho...He was shut down the last 4 games or so if I do recall correctly...

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 01:07 PM
Yea he but he was asked to face the LT more often than not...You really cant expect him to win that battle a whole heck of alot. At least not yet..
He he can develop some more pass rush moves then you never know..He was stonewalled alot by those LT's tho..Big concern...I think he just died out..He lost that quickness...So did Wake too tho...He was shut down the last 4 games or so if I do recall correctly...

wake hit the wall trying to carry this pass rush on his back...misi was figured out by week 3...bull rush or nothing...same thing he had at utah...initial move stopped drop back off the block and wait for the ball to come his way and pursue...nothing high end about that guy as a pass rusher college or pro...spin move absolutely worthless...he doesn't have high end edge rush tools...sure pray for him to develop...just don't hold your breath

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 01:08 PM
I remember you liking him, although I've never been impressed with Bowers. He's on my overrated list of defensive line prospects I made back in August even prior to the start of this season...

When I look at the film of his "breakout" season, I don't see a guy who can beat NFL offensive tackles with his first step or with speed. I think he's a 5-7 sack guy in the NFL. I wouldn't take a healthy Bowers in the top 20 picks..

yeah...he looks like a 5 sack guy to me on tape...i can see not worth a top 20 pick there...top 10 i agree too pricey given the lack of pass rush high end qualities for the next level

but really i never paid him too much attention cause he doesn't fit us at all...its pretty obvious

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 01:13 PM
every team will play 4-down with two DE's occasionally. to be honest, i don't know how much we did it. Denver didn't do it a lot under Nolan, but i guess if we got another premier pass-rusher, Nolan would figure out a way to get him involved.

I don't know the % that Misi played as a rusher with his hand in the dirt, but I think it's pretty high, and I think it'd be higher if Misi were a better pass rusher. In the Nickel - unless I was imagining things - we went almost exclusively 4-down. And, we played a good amount of Nickel. Again, if you don't like the QB, and Ingram doesn't check out, I think you can justify drafting Aldon Smith if he's your BPA.

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 01:15 PM
I agree 100% about Bowers. 5-7 sack guy. Most NFL tackles would have less than no problem with him.

greasyObnoxious
04-13-2011, 01:23 PM
I don't know the % that Misi played as a rusher with his hand in the dirt, but I think it's pretty high, and I think it'd be higher if Misi were a better pass rusher. In the Nickel - unless I was imagining things - we went almost exclusively 4-down. And, we played a good amount of Nickel. Again, if you don't like the QB, and Ingram doesn't check out, I think you can justify drafting Aldon Smith if he's your BPA.

yeah, i guess. i wouldn't be upset with Aldon Smith but i'd still prefer to trade out if Ingram/Mallett/Ponder are gone

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 01:26 PM
if aldon smith is there at #15 i think some 4-3 team is gonna be trying to come up for him...especially now that bowers knee is not checking out...i wouldn't sleep on st louis at #14 with him also if jones and green are gone

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 01:29 PM
yeah, i guess. i wouldn't be upset with Aldon Smith but i'd still prefer to trade out if Ingram/Mallett/Ponder are gone

If Newton, Mallet , Ponder and Gabbert are gone..We are gonna have alot of options..Some really good options..And alot of teams are def gonna try to move up.

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 01:30 PM
if aldon smith is there at #15 i think some 4-3 team is gonna be trying to come up for him...especially now that bowers knee is not checking out...i wouldn't sleep on st louis at #14 with him also if jones and green are gone

I think St. Louis and Jacksonville are the two most likely landing spots for Smith. Jones would have to be off the board for St. Louis to go with Smith, but I think they'd be stupid to pass if Jones isn't there. Honestly, if I'm Cleveland, I'm either looking at WR or Aldon Smith. I have Smith as a top-10 player, but I don't think he goes that high.

greasyObnoxious
04-13-2011, 01:33 PM
if aldon smith is there at #15 i think some 4-3 team is gonna be trying to come up for him...especially now that bowers knee is not checking out...i wouldn't sleep on st louis at #14 with him also if jones and green are gone

i wouldn't sleep on St. Louis trying to land Julio Jones, even if that meant trading up. but if they stay at #14 and Julio Jones is gone, they're a wildcard to go just about anywhere with that pick.

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 01:47 PM
i wouldn't sleep on St. Louis trying to land Julio Jones, even if that meant trading up. but if they stay at #14 and Julio Jones is gone, they're a wildcard to go just about anywhere with that pick.


Draft needs to hurry up and get here..My bday is 4/29 but do you think I care about that?

Hell no, I need the draft..

Krush
04-13-2011, 01:52 PM
Well, I think that if you want to provide competition for Henne then a QB is the best pick, if you want Henne to win the job by default then you go an get a running back, the dolphins can not come out of this draft without competition for Henne period!, a player that has a legitimate chance of playing significant minutes. Hell bring in DeAngelo Williams to carry the rock, I believe the pick will be Qb

Krush
04-13-2011, 01:55 PM
The fins had 39 or 40 sacks last season, pressure on the Qb wasn't a problem. This team needs to score points.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 02:02 PM
I think St. Louis and Jacksonville are the two most likely landing spots for Smith. Jones would have to be off the board for St. Louis to go with Smith, but I think they'd be stupid to pass if Jones isn't there. Honestly, if I'm Cleveland, I'm either looking at WR or Aldon Smith. I have Smith as a top-10 player, but I don't think he goes that high.

cleveland is switching to 4-3 right??? if so i would take quinn over smith but not by much

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 02:08 PM
cleveland is switching to 4-3 right??? if so i would take quinn over smith but not by much

Yeah, they are. I'd take Smith over Quinn. But, I can definitely see the argument for Quinn.

j-off-her-doll
04-13-2011, 02:10 PM
The fins had 39 or 40 sacks last season, pressure on the Qb wasn't a problem. This team needs to score points.

Sacks aren't the best measure of pressure. I think we pressure the QB well enough. I think we could do it better out of 4-down sets. Odrick's return should help.

Kdawg954
04-13-2011, 03:22 PM
You would like a better pass rusher in Quentin Moses spot as well as a Koa Misi with a few added moves. Our DLine is more than capable of creating pressure with Starks, Odrick and Merling. Even Langford came around last year and so did Soliai. With the addition of Edds, I am expect more of a "pass rush" presence from Karlos Dansby as well. Plus our DB's do a damn good job of getting pressure . . . they have since the "Trifecta" came. Definitely not a pressing need but it would be nice to get one more solid OLB to go with Wake, Misi and Francis (unless Moses comes in camp and kills it . . . finally). Not much more is needed from a pass rush perspective on this defense.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 03:30 PM
we need a situational pass rusher to supplement the outside rush...chris carter fits the bill and could be had in the mid rounds...of course i haven't heard where we've shown him any attention...instead we are talkin to ricky elmore who sucks...another if you defeat his initial move guy he can't disengage and gets owned...awful pick

spiketex
04-13-2011, 03:33 PM
You would like a better pass rusher in Quentin Moses spot as well as a Koa Misi with a few added moves. Our DLine is more than capable of creating pressure with Starks, Odrick and Merling. Even Langford came around last year and so did Soliai. With the addition of Edds, I am expect more of a "pass rush" presence from Karlos Dansby as well. Plus our DB's do a damn good job of getting pressure . . . they have since the "Trifecta" came. Definitely not a pressing need but it would be nice to get one more solid OLB to go with Wake, Misi and Francis (unless Moses comes in camp and kills it . . . finally). Not much more is needed from a pass rush perspective on this defense.
Q Moses lights it up in training camp every year. I thought that he played his best football for us last season. Don't write him off.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Q Moses lights it up in training camp every year. I thought that he played his best football for us last season. Don't write him off.

we've been waiting on quentin moses about as long as we've been waiting on channing crowder...good luck with that

Kdawg954
04-13-2011, 03:39 PM
Q Moses lights it up in training camp every year. I thought that he played his best football for us last season. Don't write him off.

I'm not writing him off . . . I wonder if the Fins are going to even offer him a contract . . . I believe he is a UFA. They looked hard at Merriman last year and put in a claim, you gotta think his time may be over here in Miami.

vaneasy2338
04-13-2011, 03:56 PM
I think you are selling Misi a little short, Hoops. I agree that other than the bull rush he didn't have much of a pass rush. But in this defense, he is asked to do a lot of things, many of which he does well. Improved setting the edge as the season went on (remember how worried we were in the preseason about this), and he is pretty good in coverage. Not to mention he is a very intelligent kid with a good work ethic. I expect improvement this offseason from him.

Kdawg954
04-13-2011, 04:01 PM
I think you are selling Misi a little short, Hoops. I agree that other than the bull rush he didn't have much of a pass rush. But in this defense, he is asked to do a lot of things, many of which he does well. Improved setting the edge as the season went on (remember how worried we were in the preseason about this), and he is pretty good in coverage. Not to mention he is a very intelligent kid with a good work ethic. I expect improvement this offseason from him.

I like Koa Misi, I really do . . . he is a bit of a "one trick pony" on the pass rush, but he is a 3 down OLB and does a good job opposite of Wake doing the "other" things that get unnoticed. Best case scenario, Misi spent the offseason with Wake learning how to get to the QB.

Tunaphish429
04-13-2011, 04:07 PM
I like Koa Misi, I really do . . . he is a bit of a "one trick pony" on the pass rush, but he is a 3 down OLB and does a good job opposite of Wake doing the "other" things that get unnoticed. Best case scenario, Misi spent the offseason with Wake learning how to get to the QB.

You cant teach explosion...Hoops is right to a point..Wake has that..Misi does not..He needs to learn some new pass rush moves..The bull rush just got ate up..
Misi has to get to the qb with determination and motor...He reminded me alot of Porter last year at times..If Misi didnt beat the tackle with the intial pass rush move then it was like he gave up and danced with the tackle..Thats not acceptable..He needs to fight to get to the qb or get off the field if he is winded.. Misi was not in man coverege alot...I dont recall him making alot of plays in the open field..He needs to improve his pass rush for Miami to be succesful..Thats why were talking about taking another pass rusher.

hooshoops
04-13-2011, 04:26 PM
I think you are selling Misi a little short, Hoops. I agree that other than the bull rush he didn't have much of a pass rush. But in this defense, he is asked to do a lot of things, many of which he does well. Improved setting the edge as the season went on (remember how worried we were in the preseason about this), and he is pretty good in coverage. Not to mention he is a very intelligent kid with a good work ethic. I expect improvement this offseason from him.

ok...i'm fine with that...my point is though with pick #40 me personally would like more than a jack of all trades master of none...