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View Full Version : John Clayton's Dec. 31st cap figures



Disgustipate
01-01-2004, 10:23 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=1510617


According to John Clayton/ESPN, we're currently over the salary cap for next season by 9.48 million, which is signifigantly less then most people have said.

Dolphins17-0
01-01-2004, 11:20 PM
Can anyone explain the discrepancies? maybe he already cut griese for us :)

It'd be nice if we were only 9.5 mil over, a lot easier to get down from that than the 17 mil I've seen elsewhere

Clumpy
01-02-2004, 03:32 PM
It all has to do with how the bonuses are applied to the cap. One thing I've not been able to get an answer for is how option payments apply to the cap. This would apply to Fiedler, who has a $2 million option payment due mid April. Does it count $2 million until exercised? Does it count now at all or not until exercised? I know option payments can be amortized but the original amount applies to the cap in some capacity.

NOTE about Clayton's numbers: They do not include any cap adjustments because they are not finalized until the Pro-Bowl is over and Ricky Williams' salary increase.

Disgustipate: The stuff you've seen have stated how much needs to be cleared in order to become cap compliant AND tender RFAs and EFAs. It will take about $4 million to extend the tenders to those players.

PhinsTD
01-03-2004, 05:56 PM
Clumped, the options do not count until excerised. So it would be that much more if his bonus is exercised.

Merman
01-04-2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by PhinsmissedFG
Clumped, the options do not count until excerised. So it would be that much more if his bonus is exercised.

How do you figure that???

Clumpy
01-04-2004, 10:37 AM
Some portion of the bonus must apply at all times

Merman
01-04-2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
Some portion of the bonus must apply at all times

Couldn't agree more. Whenever the Collective Bargainning Agreeemnt (CBA) speaks out to Salary it's to include it in Team Salary. The general rule is to include all salary and anything that coulld be deemed compensation. In Article XXIV Section 6: "Computation of Team Salary" they list everything they can think of as salary and the last subsection (g) states " Other Amounts. Any other Salary not listed above paid to players shall be included in Team Salary."

The intent of the CBA is to include all compensation when reporting salary so no team has an unfair advantage. This point is made clear with the provision that: loans guaranteed by the team or loans that may not be paid back are to be considered salary. Tender amounts when made are considered salary and when the decision is made, a new contract or withdrawal of tender, the consequences are recorded. This is a good analogy with an option.

The only sections that limit salary are very specific. Siging bonuses and anything that is considered a signing bonus, which they have a detailed list, is to be prorated. The present value of guarranteed second tier of two year signing bonus are to be included in team salary the year the contract is signed. All incentives except NLTBE are included in current Team Salary.

PhinsTD
01-04-2004, 06:39 PM
A roster bonus does not count against the cap until is given to the player. It is not guaranteed thus it doesn't count until exercised.

Merman
01-04-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by PhinsmissedFG
A roster bonus does not count against the cap until is given to the player. It is not guaranteed thus it doesn't count until exercised.

Again how do you figure that???

Clumpy
01-05-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by PhinsmissedFG
A roster bonus does not count against the cap until is given to the player. It is not guaranteed thus it doesn't count until exercised.


I disagree 110%. A team must account for the roster bonus on their salary cap in anticipation of paying the bonus even if they do not plan on paying it. The only bonuses that do not count on the salary cap are LTBE bonuses because these are not set until the final 53 man roster is set. This is one of the reasons the Pats had to release Milloy, they would have been over the cap without a restructure or release of some player on their roster. Milloy refused to restructure the way the Pats wanted and he was ultimately released saving more cap space than the Pats needed to free up.

PhinsTD
01-05-2004, 11:54 AM
I've always been under the impression that a team if it has not payed a roster bonus does not have it count against their cap space.

If this is untrue, it's stpuid and makes the incentive to pay any roster bonus to a player virtually nill. I'd almost never pay a roster bonus if I were a GM. I'd either re-structure it again or guarantee it.

If the thing is going to count anyway, might as well push it into the future when you either are rebuilding or don't need as much cap space.

Many teams in their rebuilding years do not use all their cap space anyway.

If they have to count an option bonus now that hasn't even been paid yet, that's just dumb. Why wouldn't it count when it was actually paid?

Clumpy
01-05-2004, 01:08 PM
Option bonuses count vs cap as salary as was explained by Merman.

Fielder's $2 million option for 2006 counts as $2 million RIGHT NOW!!

If exercised, then it's amortized over 2004-2006, if not, then any prior amortied bonus in 2006 is accelerated into 2004 and 2005

Merman
01-05-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet

The only bonuses that do not count on the salary cap are LTBE bonuses because these are not set until the final 53 man roster is set.

This doesn't seem right. Incentives is subsection (c) under Section 7 of Article XXIV.

Section 7 "Valuation of Player Contracts:"


The CBA states
Section 7 Notwithstanding any provision in a Player Contract to the contrary or when such payments are actually made, the following rules shall apply in determining the amount of a player’s Salary that is to be included in Team Salary in a particular League Year for purposes of the Salary Cap:

The first subsection (a) is the 51 man rule. Then (b) is signing bonus and (c) is incentives.


the CBA states
(i) Any and all incentive amounts, including but not limited to performance bonuses, shall be included in Team Salary if they are “likely to be earned” during such League Year based upon the player’s and/or Team’s performance during the prior year. In the case of a Rookie, or a Veteran who did not play during the prior season, in the event that the NFL and the NFLPA cannot agree as to whether such performance bonus is “likely to be earned,” such disputes shall be referred to the Impartial Arbitrator. Any incentive within the sole control of the player (e.g., non‑guaranteed reporting bonuses, off‑season workout and weight bonuses) shall be deemed “likely to be earned.”

Now this definitely contradicts the idea that incentive bonuses do not count until the 53 man squad is set. The only thing that would limit this would be some side letter. I will look again but I don't remember seeing one.
Seems to me you may have been discussing a special case with one player.

Merman
01-05-2004, 02:19 PM
This is interesting. :)


The CBA staes
* Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Pre-season roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”

*Side Letter 5/24/95: Sec. 8

Clumpy
01-05-2004, 02:30 PM
Thus, all the roster bonuses count vs cap

Clumpy
01-05-2004, 02:31 PM
It upsets me that the NFL and NFLPA cannot be more clear :mad:


LOL

Merman
01-05-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
Thus, all the roster bonuses count vs cap


No, it implies that some roster bonuses may be NLTBE, which is surprising, and that LTBE incentives are part of the cap during the whole league year. ;)

Clumpy
01-05-2004, 04:00 PM
This cap stuff confuses me ;)

Just found out that option bonuses may NOT count vs cap until exercised.

I'm not happy :mad:

Merman
01-05-2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
This cap stuff confuses me ;)

Just found out that option bonuses may NOT count vs cap until exercised.

I'm not happy :mad:


Duh. :lol:

PhinsTD
01-05-2004, 06:35 PM
I've always thought a roster bonus was an option bonus. These I've been told by people in sports agencies (my major) that the option bonuses do not count until exercised.

If this is not true, he's got some splaining to do.

Clumpy
01-06-2004, 12:28 AM
Signing, option, roster,

All are different but somewhat the same ;)

Section126
01-06-2004, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
Signing, option, roster,

All are different but somewhat the same ;)

Hey Clump, how does the cap account for the paper bags full of cash that we will give free agents this off-season to sign with us?

Uh...wait...did I say too much?......never mind....I was just joking...


:chuckle: :couch:

Aqua
01-06-2004, 11:08 AM
Nothing counts against the cap until March 1st, which is the first day of the new league year.

These cap numbers are computed now to let teams anticipate where they will stand on March 1st and can change greatly between now and then depending on a player getting cut.

As for Fiedler, until Miami picks up the option bonus it does not count against the cap. The same applies to any other roster or workout bonuses. Until they are paid they do not count against the cap.

I'm sure the FO has a cap sheet showing Fiedler getting the bonus and Fiedler not getting the bonus along with about 20 others in anticipation of getting under the number by March 1st.

Merman
01-06-2004, 11:26 AM
The CBA

* Any amount specified to be paid for the exercise of an option by a Club to extend the term of a Player Contract shall be treated as signing bonus, prorated over the remaining term of the contract commencing in the League Year in which it is exercised or the last League Year in which the option may be exercised, whichever comes first. Such an option amount shall, immediately upon execution of the contract, renegotiation or extension, be included in any calculation for purposes of the 25% Rule for Rookies, set forth in Article XVII, Section 4(e) of the CBA, and/or the 30% Rule, set forth in Article XXIV, Section 8 of the CBA, prorated over the remaining term of the contract commencing in the last League Year in which the option may be exercised. Notwithstanding the foregoing: (i) if a Club renounces its right to exercise the option, the option amount shall not be included in Team Salary as of the date of such renunciation; and (ii)

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if the club does not renounce, but nonetheless does not exercise the option, the full amount of the option amount previously counted against Team Salary shall be credited to the Club's Salary Cap in the next League Year.

*Side Letter 10/21/96: Sec. 4

Merman
01-06-2004, 11:46 AM
The CBA

* Compensation to players for participation in the off-season workout programs or classroom instruction sessions of a Club at the minimum amount set forth in Article XXXV of the CBA shall be included in Team Salary on the first day of such program, calculated by multiplying: (i) the minimum amount set forth in Article XXXV, Section 3; (ii) the number of players scheduled to participate in such program at said minimum amount; (iii)

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the number of days per week scheduled for such program; and (iv) the number of weeks scheduled for such program. For example, without limitation upon any other example, a Club having a nine-week workout program in the 1994 League Year for sixty players to be paid at the minimum amount will include $108,000 in its Team Salary on the first day of such program ($50 per day x four workout days per week x nine weeks x sixty players). At the conclusion of a club’s off-season workout program, any such minimum amounts which are unearned and unpaid shall be subtracted from Salary and Team Salary.

*Side Letter 5/24/95: Sec. 3