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View Full Version : Roster Notes vs strength of top of draft



Generic Name
12-11-2011, 12:48 PM
The health and production of both our ILB's and OLB's could come into play in round 1 or 2 on draft day. I think they should give Misi another year to develop as college DE's often take 2-3 years to transition to a 3-4 outside backers but who knows maybe the Fins see a chance to get a bookend guy opposite Wake and pull the trigger. Pass rushers are at a premium for a reason.

Kevin Burnett's injury history could also make a guy like Boston College's Luke Kuechly interesting with the first pick.
Justin Blackmon would be a good selection as a real #2 and future #1 WR. I think Michael Floyd's off the field issues combined with the combustibility of Brandon Marshall make him a shaky pick for the Fins.

I just don't see Trent Richardson as a fit if Bush continues to play well.

The other spot that needs to be addressed, imo, is free safety but only a trade down would get us value in the case of the draft's best 2 FS prospects, TJ McDonald and Mark Barron


RG/RT is NOT a position that needs to be addressed in first three round of this draft. There is no value there

jim1
12-11-2011, 02:10 PM
How did you come up with the conclusion that there isn't value to be had at RG or RT in the first three rounds of this draft? I don't know anyone who objectively has a desire for the Dolphins to draft OL in the first round, but sometimes you're at the mercy of what the draft has to offer at any given juncture. And if we're picking 8-12 I'm thinking that David DeCastro is that value play. And barring a major showing by John Jerry above and beyond the 1 or two games that he looked good in, we need a Guard.

As to rounds 2 and 3, my guess is that OL will offer some of the best values in those rounds, it's a deep year for OL.

Generic Name
12-11-2011, 03:50 PM
Jim-taking a guard in top 15 would be stupid, flat out dumb and the kind of thing Sparano and Wannstedt would do

Get a guard or RT through free agency, the draft, especially the top of the draft is the best place to get play makers, something Miami hasn't done enough of

if its a deep year for OL get one in the fifth or sixth round

Long first over all
Pouncey-1st round
Carey-1st round
Incognito-free agent,nice money
Jerry-third round

there's enough there to work with, its time for this group and club to grow up, drafting Oline high all the time is the best way to be mediocre year after year

jim1
12-11-2011, 04:24 PM
Jim-taking a guard in top 15 would be stupid, flat out dumb and the kind of thing Sparano and Wannstedt would do

Get a guard or RT through free agency, the draft, especially the top of the draft is the best place to get play makers, something Miami hasn't done enough of

if its a deep year for OL get one in the fifth or sixth round

Long first over all
Pouncey-1st round
Carey-1st round
Incognito-free agent,nice money
Jerry-third round

there's enough there to work with, its time for this group and club to grow up, drafting Oline high all the time is the best way to be mediocre year after year

What playmaker would you draft, say #8-12? Which playmaker- who will be available there- is worth the pick? I don't care if Jerry was taken in the 3rd round, 1st round or 57th round- he's been a bust so far. Carey is adequate, Colombo still sucks. The point is, what player at #s 8-12 offers a need/value proposition? I think to avoid that issue would be, as you say, "stupid, flat out dumb". And to me, the player likely to be available there who most offers a need/value proposition is David DeCastro.

Are you watching the game today? How many sacks do the Eagles have so far? ? How does Miami look on 3rd or 4th and short? Looks to me that we sure could use some OL, playmakers, take your pick. But if I have to choose between David DeCastro and Alshon Jeffery for example, I'm taking DeCastro. Michael Floyd would at least make me think twice aobut it. So again, if you're picking at say #8, who do you take? And you can forget about Blackmon or Claiborne, they'll be long gone.

My focus as to this draft has been and will continue to be Brandon Weeden. Weeden aside, I'm looking for value in the 1st round, with an eye on need. To do otherwise would be, in my opinion, "stupid, flat out dumb".

Generic Name
12-11-2011, 05:52 PM
First off Sparano hand picked Columbo to come in and play RT and Nate Garner is no LT ever. those were the 2 guys giving up almost all the pressures and sacks today. The next coach and personnel guy have to do better in free agency about getting us a starting caliber RT and a better backup on the other side.

Second there is no value EVER in taking a RG at the top of the first round. EVER. its like taking a punter or PK there. Dumb.

I would take Richardson or Alshon Jeffrey over any RG at #8 or whereever we're picking which might be a little higher if Losman goes another start or two. i'd take the best safety prospect or TE prospect over a RG or RT. You're going to get a better player who can have a bigger impact for the team

Here's my main point- Miami has spent time and money on their o-line at the expense of drafting real playmakers. To me, Sparano's biggest failure is his inability to mold a great OL with all the high picks and fa money he's been given. its time to change the way Miami thinks and drafts.

My biggest proof for you is that NE, the Saints and the really good teams wouldn't take 4 OL as high as we have and they're certainly not taking a RG or RT in the top 10 of any draft.

ChambersWI
12-11-2011, 06:33 PM
depending on who declares. There will be a huge run on OTs (Kalil, Marten, and Reiff). And also LBs (Burfect, Teo, Kuechley). Now what will be interesting is if Barkley and RG3 don't declare.

jim1
12-11-2011, 06:47 PM
First off Sparano hand picked Columbo to come in and play RT and Nate Garner is no LT ever. those were the 2 guys giving up almost all the pressures and sacks today. The next coach and personnel guy have to do better in free agency about getting us a starting caliber RT and a better backup on the other side.

Second there is no value EVER in taking a RG at the top of the first round. EVER. its like taking a punter or PK there. Dumb.



I would take Richardson or Alshon Jeffrey over any RG at #8 or whereever we're picking which might be a little higher if Losman goes another start or two. i'd take the best safety prospect or TE prospect over a RG or RT. You're going to get a better player who can have a bigger impact for the team

Here's my main point- Miami has spent time and money on their o-line at the expense of drafting real playmakers. To me, Sparano's biggest failure is his inability to mold a great OL with all the high picks and fa money he's been given. its time to change the way Miami thinks and drafts.

My biggest proof for you is that NE, the Saints and the really good teams wouldn't take 4 OL as high as we have and they're certainly not taking a RG or RT in the top 10 of any draft.

It's amusing to read your posts while noting that you refer to my opinions as "dumb". I would define "dumb", or perhaps truly stupid, as hypothetically drafting any TE available in this draft over David DeCastro. Regardless of what Ireland/Sparano intended, the OL needs help, big time- the right side is a mess. If you want to grab any playmaker you can find at #s 8-12 as opposed to taking far closer to a sure thing at a need position on offense, have at it. If we end up at #6 as I guess we are standing now after the loss, I'm looking hard at Blackmon and Claiborne, I don't see passing either up although both will probably be gone at that point. If they're gone when we pick, in my opinion value is going to be hard to find, especially at an offensive playmaker position.

I have my doubts that Weeden will be available by our pick in the 2nd round- that's problematic. But in this hypothetical situation, if we end up picking say #8-12, I'm looking really hard at David DeCastro or better yet trading down and picking up Weeden later in the 1st. To force a pick on a playmaker high in the 1st when that player doesn't really justify the premium selection- that, in my opinion, transcends dumb and enters into the land of stupid, and is what the lesser teams and personnel departments would do. And taking any TE in this draft over DeCastro- that selection should come with a complimentary dunce cap, or at least one of those beanies with the propeller on top.

Generic Name
12-11-2011, 07:09 PM
Jim-

I'm calling the Dolphins stupid for their O-line first, second and last mentality that has cost us playmakers like Jimmy Graham and Matt Ryan for years.
It is truly stone age and moronic in its simplicity and its refusal to look at how good teams build their rosters vs what we've done. so yeah, taking DeCastro would be stupid at #8. flat out stupid. stone cold stupid.

Unfortunately I read the same thing over and over here every offseason. "we need to fix the o-line." Its a mantra that sounds like it should be coming from mental patients No right guard is ever picked top 10 except in here where it is deemed a great idea.

The right side of our line is not the biggest problem on the roster. fixing it wouldn't have the biggest impact. Go with Jerry and a FA.

F DeCastro, to take him in any situation in round 1 would be stupid, the highest rated TE would be a better pick

jim1
12-11-2011, 07:21 PM
Jim-

I'm calling the Dolphins stupid for their O-line first, second and last mentality that has cost us playmakers like Jimmy Graham and Matt Ryan for years.
It is truly stone age and moronic in its simplicity and its refusal to look at how good teams build their rosters vs what we've done. so yeah, taking DeCastro would be stupid at #8. flat out stupid. stone cold stupid.

Unfortunately I read the same thing over and over here every offseason. "we need to fix the o-line." Its a mantra that sounds like it should be coming from mental patients No right guard is ever picked top 10 except in here where it is deemed a great idea.

The right side of our line is not the biggest problem on the roster. fixing it wouldn't have the biggest impact. Go with Jerry and a FA.

F DeCastro, to take him in any situation in round 1 would be stupid, the highest rated TE would be a better pick

Whatever dude. That last sentence, again, lets me know what I'm dealing with in responding to you. Jerry and a FA- good luck with that. FA allows a team more of a luxury in terms of picking and choosing, playmakers included. If DeCastro wasn't by all accounts one of the best Guards to come out in years, if there's a playmaker worthy of our selection that wouldn't be a reach- I'd be on board, who wouldn't? If Christian Ponder were available next draft at our selection I'd be all over it. But he's not, and our slot is probably gong to be a difficult one. So if your preference would be to reach on a playmaker and risk the chance that he's a bust or underachiever, with dual opportunity costs of both money being tied into him and not choosing a higher rated player at a need position, well then have at it. And if you want to enter the land of the galactically stupid, go ahead and draft a TE over David DeCastro- there's not a TE available who would be even remotely worth that selection.

Generic Name
12-11-2011, 07:29 PM
you like to pick and choose what you respond to but which team is galactically stupid enough to draft a RG with a top 10 pick??

Is he John Hannah and have the rules of the game changed back to the pre-1980's rules?

how have the Saints, Pats, Steelers and Pack built their rosters? with 4 first round OL??? Please have the guts to answer that one or tell me it isn't relevant because I have a feeling I'm dealing with a guy who can't really change his warped idea of what best player available means because he's so caught up in the idea that "it all starts up front"

The rating process has just begun, oh draft genius, there might be a TE or FS or pass rusher close to DeCastro's rating before next April. I pray the Fins aren't as prehistoric in their thinking as you are.

jim1
12-11-2011, 07:42 PM
you like to pick and choose what you respond to but which team is galactically stupid enough to draft a RG with a top 10 pick??

Is he John Hannah and have the rules of the game changed back to the pre-1980's rules?

how have the Saints, Pats, Steelers and Pack built their rosters? with 4 first round OL??? Please have the guts to answer that one or tell me it isn't relevant because I have a feeling I'm dealing with a guy who can't really change his warped idea of what best player available means because he's so caught up in the idea that "it all starts up front"

The rating process has just begun, oh draft genius, there might be a TE or FS or pass rusher close to DeCastro's rating before next April. I pray the Fins aren't as prehistoric in their thinking as you are.

Well, the Saints, Packers, Steelers and Patriots haven't had many top 10 picks of late that I can recall, and the last Guard that I can recall taken top 10 was Leonard Davis. THe question isn't if you'd rather take a playmaker with a premium 1st round pick, the question is what do you do in a weak year for playmakers, as this year seems to be. Of course the Dolphins would prefer a stud playmaker in the 1st rd with this high of a pick, given their needs. The question is, in this draft, what do you do when the truly quality playmakers will be gone by your pick, because there's a good chance that's what the Fins will be looking at in the 1st round. DeCastro is by all accounts one of the best Guards to come out in years. If he wasn't iI'd never bring him up in this context in the first place. Again, if you'd rather force a selection on a playmaker, have at it. Good luck on that high first round pick this year on a TE. Brilliant stuff.

nate52
12-11-2011, 07:55 PM
Well, the Saints, Packers, Steelers and Patriots haven't had many top 10 picks of late that I can recall, and the last Guard that I can recall taken top 10 was Leonard Davis. THe question isn't if you'd rather take a playmaker with a premium 1st round pick, the question is what do you do in a weak year for playmakers, as this year seems to be. Of course the Dolphins would prefer a stud playmaker in the 1st rd with this high of a pick, given their needs. The question is, in this draft, what do you do when the truly quality playmakers will be gone by your pick, because there's a good chance that's what the Fins will be looking at in the 1st round. DeCastro is by all accounts one of the best Guards to come out in years. If he wasn't iI'd never bring him up in this context in the first place. Again, if you'd rather force a selection on a playmaker, have at it. Good luck on that high first round pick this year on a TE. Brilliant stuff.



I believe Davis was drafted as a tackle and shifted to guard later in his career with Dallas.

PSU Cane
12-11-2011, 08:02 PM
you like to pick and choose what you respond to but which team is galactically stupid enough to draft a RG with a top 10 pick??

Is he John Hannah and have the rules of the game changed back to the pre-1980's rules?

how have the Saints, Pats, Steelers and Pack built their rosters? with 4 first round OL??? Please have the guts to answer that one or tell me it isn't relevant because I have a feeling I'm dealing with a guy who can't really change his warped idea of what best player available means because he's so caught up in the idea that "it all starts up front"

The rating process has just begun, oh draft genius, there might be a TE or FS or pass rusher close to DeCastro's rating before next April. I pray the Fins aren't as prehistoric in their thinking as you are.

Actually, the Pats have 2 x 1st round lineman (Solder and Mankins) starting along with 1 x 2nd round pick (Light).

The Packers have 2 x 1st round lineman (Sherrod and Buluaga) and 1 x 2nd round pick (Clifton).

The Steeler's have 1 x 1st (Pouncey), 1 x 2nd (Gilbert) and 1 x 3rd (Starks) starting on the oline.

I get your point b/c you can find good lineman in free agency, late in drafts, or even undrafted....but the key is drafting lineman that YOU have rated highy and at a position of need, especially if they are the BPA at that time. Playmakers at WR, RB, TE, DE, OLB and CB seem to be harder to find so you don't want to pass them up if a highly rated guy is there for you....but those guys bust too. And quite honestly, many games are won/lost upfront with the OLine/DLine....unless you have a freakish QB like Rodgers/Brady/Manning. I'm never against drafting a lineman if i think he is a stud. I think DeCastro is a STUD and i'd gladly take him in the late teens and 20's this year, but not in the top 12 where Miami will be picking....but i might look at a guy like Martin or Reiff if they are the BPA (they could start at RT and offer insurance if Long gets hurt at LT). I completely disagree with not picking a lineman until round 3 or 4....it's obvious we need help at that position and might not get a Day 1 starter that low in the draft.

Generic Name
12-11-2011, 08:47 PM
Actually, the Pats have 2 x 1st round lineman (Solder and Mankins) starting along with 1 x 2nd round pick (Light).

The Packers have 2 x 1st round lineman (Sherrod and Buluaga) and 1 x 2nd round pick (Clifton).

The Steeler's have 1 x 1st (Pouncey), 1 x 2nd (Gilbert) and 1 x 3rd (Starks) starting on the oline.

I get your point b/c you can find good lineman in free agency, late in drafts, or even undrafted....but the key is drafting lineman that YOU have rated highy and at a position of need, especially if they are the BPA at that time. Playmakers at WR, RB, TE, DE, OLB and CB seem to be harder to find so you don't want to pass them up if a highly rated guy is there for you....but those guys bust too. And quite honestly, many games are won/lost upfront with the OLine/DLine....unless you have a freakish QB like Rodgers/Brady/Manning. I'm never against drafting a lineman if i think he is a stud. I think DeCastro is a STUD and i'd gladly take him in the late teens and 20's this year, but not in the top 12 where Miami will be picking....but i might look at a guy like Martin or Reiff if they are the BPA (they could start at RT and offer insurance if Long gets hurt at LT). I completely disagree with not picking a lineman until round 3 or 4....it's obvious we need help at that position and might not get a Day 1 starter that low in the draft.


The Pats and Pack have picked OL at the bottom of round 1 because they could afford to. we can not. They have maybe 2 guys taken in round 1 on their OL, if we were to go DeCastro or Martin or Reiff in round 1 that would be 4 guys on one unit with first round pedigree.

that's way too much on a team with few playmakers



what really galls me about the Parcells/Sparano mentality is that they'll tell you they liked Jimmy Graham but not ahead of a right guard named John Jerry, You almost get the feeling they'd make the same pick all over again because it fits their philosophy.

it's a outdated philosophy that might have worked in the 80's but doesn't work now. We've had a series of administrations from Wannstedt to the current dopes who've passed on Drew Brees (twice) Jimmy Graham, Connor Barwin, and a whole host of better players because they weren't offensive linemen or didn't fit their outdated draft criteria.

when do we get a TE who can threaten defenses like the Pats, Pack and Saints have? Or a QB who can make plays when things break down?

The O-line first philosophy has hurt this team and its time to get a HC and unit coach who can do better w.o three or four first round picks up front

Generic Name
12-11-2011, 09:50 PM
Well, the Saints, Packers, Steelers and Patriots haven't had many top 10 picks of late that I can recall, and the last Guard that I can recall taken top 10 was Leonard Davis. THe question isn't if you'd rather take a playmaker with a premium 1st round pick, the question is what do you do in a weak year for playmakers, as this year seems to be. Of course the Dolphins would prefer a stud playmaker in the 1st rd with this high of a pick, given their needs. The question is, in this draft, what do you do when the truly quality playmakers will be gone by your pick, because there's a good chance that's what the Fins will be looking at in the 1st round. DeCastro is by all accounts one of the best Guards to come out in years. If he wasn't iI'd never bring him up in this context in the first place. Again, if you'd rather force a selection on a playmaker, have at it. Good luck on that high first round pick this year on a TE. Brilliant stuff.

You know what's brilliant, Jimmy? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So go ahead and draft DeCastro at #8 and see what it gets you.

Also brilliant is telling us in December that all the playmakers will likely be gone when we pick. Genius stuff.

You're a really smart guy, Jimmy. No wonder you advocate taking guards with the #8 overall selection. That's brilliant. DeCastro will catch tons of TD's and get lots of sacks, And to think, we all thought he was a right guard.

dolfan91
12-11-2011, 11:26 PM
The Pats and Pack have picked OL at the bottom of round 1 because they could afford to. we can not. They have maybe 2 guys taken in round 1 on their OL, if we were to go DeCastro or Martin or Reiff in round 1 that would be 4 guys on one unit with first round pedigree.

that's way too much on a team with few playmakers



what really galls me about the Parcells/Sparano mentality is that they'll tell you they liked Jimmy Graham but not ahead of a right guard named John Jerry, You almost get the feeling they'd make the same pick all over again because it fits their philosophy.

it's a outdated philosophy that might have worked in the 80's but doesn't work now. We've had a series of administrations from Wannstedt to the current dopes who've passed on Drew Brees (twice) Jimmy Graham, Connor Barwin, and a whole host of better players because they weren't offensive linemen or didn't fit their outdated draft criteria.

when do we get a TE who can threaten defenses like the Pats, Pack and Saints have? Or a QB who can make plays when things break down?

The O-line first philosophy has hurt this team and its time to get a HC and unit coach who can do better w.o three or four first round picks up front

It is apparent that when Moore got protection he played well and the TE's became a factor in the offense .. In this upcoming draft (2012) there is NOT a TE worthy of a top 8-12 pick .. I'm sorry I don't agree in drafting a player just to draft a player WHO a FAN thinks is a play maker!!! DeCastro is widely considered to be 1 of the best OG prospects to come out of the college ranks in a very long time ... all too often the protection broke down during late game attempts to come back ... It's very obvious the O-line NEEDS another stud on the inside .. Decastro fit's the bill ... the only 2 play makers I'd draft between 8-12 would be Blackmon or Claiborne .. no one else!!! and both will probably be gone ...

ChambersWI
12-11-2011, 11:31 PM
I believe Davis was drafted as a tackle and shifted to guard later in his career with Dallas.

yes and no. He spent his first 3 seasons at guard then was kicked out to LT (which was the plan from the beginning). People forget that in the past, teams always would draft guys at tackle, but season them at guard, before pushing them to LT... or they'd play RT before being pushed over.

But we are not drafting a guard in the top 10.

jim1
12-11-2011, 11:39 PM
You know what's brilliant, Jimmy? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So go ahead and draft DeCastro at #8 and see what it gets you.

Also brilliant is telling us in December that all the playmakers will likely be gone when we pick. Genius stuff.

You're a really smart guy, Jimmy. No wonder you advocate taking guards with the #8 overall selection. That's brilliant. DeCastro will catch tons of TD's and get lots of sacks, And to think, we all thought he was a right guard.


Colin Lindsay of Great Blue North Draft Report must be a really big dummy as well:

http://www.gbnreport.com/2012projection.html

Funny, I still haven't seen a mock draft anywhere with a TE going in the first round, much less ahead of DeCastro. Maybe I should take a look at another draft site- galacticallystupiddraft.com. I'm thinking that's the best bet to find a mock draft that has a TE going ahead of DeCastro in the upcoming draft.

SF Dolphin Fan
12-11-2011, 11:39 PM
I'd do everything in my power to trade up for Andrew Luck or Matt Barkley. But if the top qb's are off the board, I might go Michael Floyd. The guy is a force, a great red-zone threat and would make it very hard for opposing defenses to key on only Brandon Marshall in the red zone. Two legit #1 receivers in an era when passing the ball is the way to win makes sense to me. Also, if I'm Miami's GM I love Marshall on the field but have to be concerned that he could pull a Ricky Williams off the field. Take Marshall out of the lineup and you've got Hartline and Bess and trouble scoring points. Even more of an argument for adding another top flight receiver. Trade back in to the first and get Ryan Tannehill or take Brandon Weeden in round 2.

Valandui
12-12-2011, 01:00 AM
What playmaker would you draft, say #8-12? Which playmaker- who will be available there- is worth the pick? I don't care if Jerry was taken in the 3rd round, 1st round or 57th round- he's been a bust so far. Carey is adequate, Colombo still sucks. The point is, what player at #s 8-12 offers a need/value proposition? I think to avoid that issue would be, as you say, "stupid, flat out dumb". And to me, the player likely to be available there who most offers a need/value proposition is David DeCastro.

Are you watching the game today? How many sacks do the Eagles have so far? ? How does Miami look on 3rd or 4th and short? Looks to me that we sure could use some OL, playmakers, take your pick. But if I have to choose between David DeCastro and Alshon Jeffery for example, I'm taking DeCastro. Michael Floyd would at least make me think twice aobut it. So again, if you're picking at say #8, who do you take? And you can forget about Blackmon or Claiborne, they'll be long gone.

My focus as to this draft has been and will continue to be Brandon Weeden. Weeden aside, I'm looking for value in the 1st round, with an eye on need. To do otherwise would be, in my opinion, "stupid, flat out dumb".
Courtney Upshaw.

madridfinfan
12-12-2011, 09:44 AM
"good teams" don't draft a G in the top 10" because "good teams" pick in the mid-late 20s.

What would be interesting to see though is how present day "good teams" and organizations like NE, Balt, Pitt, GB have historically drafted (need vs BPA) in the first round in rebuilding years.

Throw in the luck (or is it just great scouting) that may bring you a Brady or
a Rodgers.

I'm all for drafting impact skill positions. I'm tired of mediocrity as much as the next finfan, but I'd take deCastro (read no other guard in this draft) before any TE. I'd consider Floyd before Castro as that's a risk that'd be worth taking. We
can pick up a solid TE in the second and maybe even in the third (where a value of Castro won't be there).

Both are need positions, and I'd say of equal need), so in a draw you have to choose the value pick in that case, which would be Castro over any TE in this draft.

But in the end it all depends on the teams big draft board and where they have players graded (which is what really scares me).

I agree with you Jim that you can't keep doing he same thing and expect different results. I think the asterisk here is that the Dolphins not only have a prehistoric philosophy on drafting, but are horrid
At evaluating (and developing) talent. If they weren't so bad in that department, I'd be more comfortable
Taking a risk with a lower rated player (eg TE in this draft).

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 10:58 AM
I'm a firm believer in finding guards in the middle-rounds and avoiding the scenario where you're tempted to draft an interior offensive lineman too high in the 1st round.

However, I reserved an exception for David DeCastro during his sophomore season.

The value of DeCastro's position simply isn't a cornerstone position, but DeCastro is a cornerstone talent. He's more rare at his position than Andrew Luck is at his.

I haven't seen an offensive lineman as flawless and dominant as DeCastro in many years. Whoever gets him is getting the best offensive lineman in the country for 2 years running, regardless of position.


As for Mark Barron, he's a S/S, not a F/S.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 11:46 AM
I am not usually a fan of a tailback in the 1st round especially high in the 1st round but Trent Richardson is probably the best tailback I've seen since Adrian Peterson, for whatever that's worth. He's going to have a HIGH impact for whichever team drafts him.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 12:06 PM
Given that the defense has turned itself around in a pretty big way, it's interesting to take a look at what this team needs other than quarterback.

You really have to get Paul Soliai back. It all starts with him up front, IMO. Incidentally, when the hell did Phil Merling become the next Shane Burton? Not entirely relevant, but interesting nonetheless. I love Randy Starks and Jared Odrick has started to play really well this year. Kendall Langford plays a good role on the defense.

I'm not crazy about Tony McDaniel, I thought he only had the year he had in 2010 because he wanted to get paid in the off season, he got that money and now he's not looking as good again. Then again if I remember the contract he signed, 2012 will be another contract year for him so once again his motivation will be sky high and he'll probably have another good year. For that reason alone I think it would be foolish to part with him or replace him.

Despite his Shane Burton-ness, I think it's about time for Phil Merling to exit stage right.

Hard to say if Kevin Burnett just needed time to get chemistry with Karlos Dansby, or if he's just going through a good streak...but he's played well the last 7 games and between he and Dansby it's good enough that it makes me want to potentially keep the 3-4 and keep those two on the inside of it. And Cameron Wake of course should always have a spot.

I think that Sean Smith is finally ready to take over the free safety job. You can keep him at corner if you've got the safety position nailed down and you lack depth at corner, but I'm not sure that's the situation Miami is in. He was new to the defensive side of the ball when Miami drafted him, had only been playing there for 2 years. He's not new to it anymore. That interception he had against Michael Vick while covering Brent Celek, I think he could potentially do that a lot as a free safety. And I think he's a communicator. Finding a free safety with his hips and his range isn't easy to do. The only problem is it opens up a big hole at corner and you have to be certain you can fill it. Is Jimmy Wilson that guy? Do you sign or draft someone? It's an option I would like to explore.

Vontae Davis though...I'm not sure if this guy is salvageable or not. Another week, another game he lets up big completions and even worse, can't stay on the field. What's concerning is that just when you think the coaching staff had gotten through to him and exorcised the Vontae-ness that made him so inconsistent and at times unreliable at Illinois...he regresses. I'm not saying you cut him or anything, but at this point, the dashboard warning lights are going on...and between he and Sean Smith's potential move to safety, that makes the all-important cornerback position probably the position on defense that still needs the most work.

Will Allen I've been very happy with as our slot corner, the whole year. Consummate pro. Should never have cut him and I see absolutely no reason to part with him in 2012. I'm glad to see he genuinely put the injuries behind him. He could even resume a starting job if Miami finds a slot cornerback worth a damn (Jimmy Wilson?).

If for whatever reason you're looking at a position other than QB at #7 overall...then I think Quinton Coples or Courtney Upshaw should probably be the main guys you look at, with an outside possibility of Alfonzo Dennard.

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 12:23 PM
decastro is terrific...sure looks like a once every decade guard talent to me...so even though i think #7 is a little rich there i'd be ok throwing him in the mix for consideration with coples and upshaw if qb is not to be with our top pick...

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 12:33 PM
in some ways i think courtney upshaw at #7 is a little rich also...just cause i don't think he's one of those guys who's gonna test off the charts or wow you with his workouts etc...but i see an awful lot of lamar woodley when i watch him...very powerful strength player...very strong hands...

talent wise though i think ideally he falls somewhere in the teens...not top 10

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 12:34 PM
I'd take DeCastro in the top 10 before I'd take any of these tackles in the top 10. Kalil has long been the best of that lot, but when I compare him to what makes a left tackle worthy of a top 10 pick in my opinion, he's just on the outside looking in.


1. Barkley

2. Claiborne

3. Blackmon

4. Upshaw

5. DeCastro



That's basically how I'd be looking at it if I'm picking between the 6-8 range. I'm drafting vertically at that spot, and in that order.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 12:36 PM
I think all three of us are in agreement that Dave DeCastro is a special player and if Miami satisfied the QB position in some other manner I'm not shedding a tear over taking DeCastro at #7 overall.

Not a particularly inspiring position pick to me, but an inspiring player. Actually, a lot like the Pouncey pick which I gave a C grade because I hated the position choice/need but loved the player and predicted he'd be better than his brother which IMO he has been already even as a rookie.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 12:38 PM
in some ways i think courtney upshaw at #7 is a little rich also...just cause i don't think he's one of those guys who's gonna test off the charts or wow you with his workouts etc...but i see an awful lot of lamar woodley when i watch him...very powerful strength player...very strong hands...

talent wise though i think ideally he falls somewhere in the teens...not top 10

I see what you're saying, but personally I'm not going to worry about a player that should have the kind of impact he does, especially now that the rookie wage scale got slammed into place.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 12:40 PM
I'd take DeCastro in the top 10 before I'd take any of these tackles in the top 10. Kalil has long been the best of that lot, but when I compare him to what makes a left tackle worthy of a top 10 pick in my opinion, he's just on the outside looking in.


1. Barkley

2. Claiborne

3. Blackmon

4. Upshaw

5. DeCastro



That's basically how I'd be looking at if I'm picking between the 6-8 range. I'm drafting vertically at that spot, and in that order.

...wow. That's almost exactly I'd have it although I'd swap out DeCastro for Coples, and I'd personally just assume not even get my hopes up about Blackmon or Claiborne being there.

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 12:41 PM
in some ways i think courtney upshaw at #7 is a little rich also...just cause i don't think he's one of those guys who's gonna test off the charts or wow you with his workouts etc...but i see an awful lot of lamar woodley when i watch him...very powerful strength player...very strong hands...

talent wise though i think ideally he falls somewhere in the teens...not top 10



Upshaw's 'value' would ideally probably fall in the teens somewhere, but there's not a more dominant defensive player in the country... and very few that can do what Upshaw can do in terms of fitting in perfectly within a 3-4. I think he legitimately makes his defense better the instant he steps on the field, much like Von Miller or Clay Matthews in that respect.

I think I'm getting a better player if I take Upshaw in the top 10 as opposed to Coples, for example... and I like Coples as a prospect.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 12:48 PM
The scheme fit is the only reason I'd put Coples below Upshaw, but that's a pretty significant factor so I don't feel bad about doing that. Coples though, if you want to pick out the next Jason Pierre-Paul, that's him.

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 12:49 PM
I think all three of us are in agreement that Dave DeCastro is a special player and if Miami satisfied the QB position in some other manner I'm not shedding a tear over taking DeCastro at #7 overall.

Not a particularly inspiring position pick to me, but an inspiring player. Actually, a lot like the Pouncey pick which I gave a C grade because I hated the position choice/need but loved the player and predicted he'd be better than his brother which IMO he has been already even as a rookie.

i think mikes got more upside than maurkice...mike's a terrific athlete...outstanding move player and he's got better feet than his brother but not quite the same level strength at this stage

Generic Name
12-12-2011, 12:50 PM
Wow, you really know how to argue your point "go clean out your ears" - how do I defend myself on that poetic line!

Let's talk out of both sides of our mouth too why don't you - "I don't think drafting a TE in the first round at #7 is the best thing but you rather select a TE than another OL." So you'll draft a 2nd rate TE over a potential stud OG just because he plays OL... watch out CK/TedSlimm there's a new draft sheriff in town, lol!

Can't wait to see what you come up with next, meanwhile I'll be cleaning my toes!

How do YOU know who is a second rate TE and who isn't? It is December. what happens if Orson Charles or Dwayne Allen run a 4.6 or better like Vernon Davis did at his workout?

could somebody please explain how taking a guard at #7 ever makes sense?

do teams not factor in value of position? is that maybe not the main reason why a pure guard has not been selected in the top 10 of the draft in forever?

Your hunger for deCastro is almost as ridiculous as your passion for DeSean Jackson who has as much chance of playing for Miami as you do.

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 12:53 PM
Upshaw's 'value' would ideally probably fall in the teens somewhere, but there's not a more dominant defensive player in the country... and very few that can do what Upshaw can do in terms of fitting in perfectly within a 3-4. I think he legitimately makes his defense better the instant he steps on the field, much like Von Miller or Clay Matthews in that respect.

I think I'm getting a better player if I take Upshaw in the top 10 as opposed to Coples, for example... and I like Coples as a prospect.

i think its a safer choice...upshaw over coples...and i think i agree with the better player bit also...but upside wise coples has the kind of talent and measurables that get drafted in the top 5...but there's also a buyer beware element there that bothers me

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 12:55 PM
i think mikes got more upside than maurkice...mike's a terrific athlete...outstanding move player and he's got better feet than his brother but not quite the same level strength at this stage

That's how I see it as well, but I prefer Mike's skill set at the Center position to Maurkice's skill set, which isn't as rare. You can find/develop a guy that looks and plays similar to Maurkice Pouncey in the later rounds. If you want a guy that looks and plays similar to Mike Pouncey you do usually have to draft him fairly high (not necessarily 1st round). My gripe was mainly that the impact of the position itself is not high and there's a reason so many of the best ones come from the 7th round, etc.

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 12:58 PM
The scheme fit is the only reason I'd put Coples below Upshaw, but that's a pretty significant factor so I don't feel bad about doing that. Coples though, if you want to pick out the next Jason Pierre-Paul, that's him.

you think he's a move player on the level of jpp??? i mean jpp runs down stuff on the backside that he has no damn business getting to...if there's a 43 de in football that covers more ground than that kid i'd like to know who it is...cause i haven't seen it

i'm left with an open mouth when i watch jpp cover ground...he does stuff than you can't even prepare for blocking scheme wise on the backside...you can still run downhill at him when you run directly at him but in time i'm not sure you'll be able to do that either...he's cat quick and explosive as all get out

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 12:59 PM
Coples is significantly better than Pierre-Paul was, particularly in terms of being an all around better player with a more complete game. Coples looks like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams. Lot bigger and stronger than JPP was, without sacrificing the athletic talent.

Another guy that I would consider is Melvin Ingram. I think he's the best athlete in the entire country on the defensive side of the football, and knows how to make plays. Extremely versatile.

I don't know that I've ever seen a kid his size with that level of athletic ability, and have movement skills that coordinated. He's a more natural runner in the open field than 60% of the skill position talent.

datruth55
12-12-2011, 01:04 PM
Coples is significantly better than Pierre-Paul was, particularly in terms of being an all around better player with a more complete game. Coples looks like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams. Lot bigger and stronger than JPP was, without sacrificing the athletic talent.

Another guy that I would consider is Melvin Ingram. I think he's the best athlete in the entire country on the defensive side of the football, and knows how to make plays. Extremely versatile.

I don't know that I've ever seen a kid his size with that level of athletic ability, and have movement skills that coordinated. He's a more natural runner in the open field than 60% of the skill position talent.

I've had my eye on Melvin Ingram...I've seen him rush the passer from a two point stance and I think he could be a strong side OLB in the 3-4. He's an extremely athletic guy for someone that big. Don't know that he'd be a great pass rusher but he could certainly set the edge and make plays against the run.

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 01:07 PM
yeah mario williams or julius peppers is what i see when i watch coples also...and its hard not to get excited about that kind of talent and upside...very hard

Generic Name
12-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Which specific player makers that are likely to be available at #8-12 have similar grades to DeCastro? Please specify. As to the importance of acquiring playmakers in this draft, as I said on the first page of this thread:

"My focus as to this draft has been and will continue to be Brandon Weeden. Weeden aside, I'm looking for value in the 1st round, with an eye on need."

I don't know who will be available at #7 (our current position) Nor do you. I would take any number of players from Barkley to Claiborne to Blackmon over De Castro You can tell me "theyt won't be there" but you don't know any of that yet including where we'll pick. We don't know how kids are going to test, who is even declaring etc and to put a right guard on a pedestal to me is ridiculous.

how many of you even understand line play or have watched game film on DeCastro? Not many, yet people in here are calling him a special player?? based on what? a scouting report from someone who doesn't work for an NFL team?

I like Weeden as well but not in the first round unless they can trade down. I like our odds of getting a playmaker better if we stay in the top 10 and don't draft another offensive lineman.

can it not be argued that since Wannstedt, Miami has devoted more free agent dollars and high draft picks to the offensive line than any other unit? That focus has come at a tremendous price, imo, a lack of difference makers in the draft.

If you ask me, Parcells and Co overdid it with the defensive line as well. It boggles my mind that we're year 4 into this regime and we don't have anything close to a franchise QB or a Jermaine Gresham or an Aaron Hernandez much less a Graham or Gronkowski

I think the focus should be less on acquiring more linemen in the draft and more on developing the players we have now. I like Pouncey but should it take a year for him to learn how to shotgun snap? You ever notice that Matt Moore looks like he's trying to catch a wet watermelon on every third and long? why can't they get John Jerry to the point where he isn't making mental mistakes? he's obviously physically talented. or find a real RT or get Vernon Carey's fat *** in shape so he isn't always hurt or getting beat?

Part of my problem with this "O-line all the time" draft mantra is that it ignores the fact that these players have to be developed and Tony S was supposed to be an O-line guru who has had all the time and resources needed to put together a good line and he hasn't. meanwhile we're sitting with Bills like talent at the skill positions.

3rdandinches
12-12-2011, 01:09 PM
How do YOU know who is a second rate TE and who isn't? It is December. what happens if Orson Charles or Dwayne Allen run a 4.6 or better like Vernon Davis did at his workout?

could somebody please explain how taking a guard at #7 ever makes sense?

do teams not factor in value of position? is that maybe not the main reason why a pure guard has not been selected in the top 10 of the draft in forever?

Your hunger for deCastro is almost as ridiculous as your passion for DeSean Jackson who has as much chance of playing for Miami as you do.

There it is, another great point "what if they run a 4.6 or better", that might just make them a #1 overall possibility. I didn't realize the combine time made a player even better. I guess you were on the Vernon Gholston band wagon over J.Long, lol.

If "hunger for DeCastro" you mean I'd take a potential great guard over a 2nd rate TE that runs a fast 40 time then you nailed it.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 01:35 PM
Coples is significantly better than Pierre-Paul was, particularly in terms of being an all around better player with a more complete game. Coples looks like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams. Lot bigger and stronger than JPP was, without sacrificing the athletic talent.

Another guy that I would consider is Melvin Ingram. I think he's the best athlete in the entire country on the defensive side of the football, and knows how to make plays. Extremely versatile.

I don't know that I've ever seen a kid his size with that level of athletic ability, and have movement skills that coordinated. He's a more natural runner in the open field than 60% of the skill position talent.

I agree that Coples is more developed at this point than Jason Pierre-Paul was coming out. I had a pretty clear vision for what Pierre-Paul would become once he grew into his own body, but Quinton Coples has already grown into his significant body to some extent and is playing better, more consistent football at UNC than Pierre-Paul did at USF.

Mario Williams is another comparison I like, although the thing I dislike about that comparison is to me Mario Williams was even less consistent than Coples is.

Interesting thoughts about Melvin Ingram. I can honestly say I've not even once sat down to look at him.

Generic Name
12-12-2011, 01:41 PM
There it is, another great point "what if they run a 4.6 or better", that might just make them a #1 overall possibility. I didn't realize the combine time made a player even better. I guess you were on the Vernon Gholston band wagon over J.Long, lol.

If "hunger for DeCastro" you mean I'd take a potential great guard over a 2nd rate TE that runs a fast 40 time then you nailed it.

Son, you have a lot to learn. Is Vernon Davis a second rate TE? He went from nowhere in December to top 10 by draft day. Running a fast 40 opened the door for him to rise up the draft boards.

You should look into Dwayne Allen and Orson Charles before dismissing them. I guess that's what amateur Kipers do. They make all their picks in December and if you dare to question them, you're dead wrong.

Taking any guard top 10 is silly. Especially when your team has so much invested in the rest of their O-line. You can't defend it

as for Gholston I wasn't in his corner. I was a Matt Ryan guy. Guess i was wrong there, too.

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 01:50 PM
I agree that Coples is more developed at this point than Jason Pierre-Paul was coming out. I had a pretty clear vision for what Pierre-Paul would become once he grew into his own body, but Quinton Coples has already grown into his significant body to some extent and is playing better, more consistent football at UNC than Pierre-Paul did at USF.

Mario Williams is another comparison I like, although the thing I dislike about that comparison is to me Mario Williams was even less consistent than Coples is.

Interesting thoughts about Melvin Ingram. I can honestly say I've not even once sat down to look at him.


If you decide to sit down once to look at Melvin Ingram, be prepared to keep sittin' there a while.

The first thing that will make you gasp is the caliber of athlete he is for that size. It's indeed very, very rare.

Furthermore, you won't knock his motor or consistency.

The biggest question you'll come away asking yourself is, "Where do I play this guy"?

DE? DT? OLB?



Running back? :d-day:

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 01:53 PM
If you decide to sit down once to look at Melvin Ingram, be prepared to keep sittin' there a while.

The first thing that will make you gasp is the caliber of athlete he is for that size. It's indeed very, very rare.

Furthermore, you won't knock his motor or consistency.

The biggest question you'll come away asking yourself is, "Where do I play this guy"?

DE? DT? OLB?



Running back? :d-day:

LOL. Great. Another 7+ gamer on the horizon. You know that's what always happens to me. I see a guy I like and I'm compelled by some sort of OCD to just keep watching more and more.

jim1
12-12-2011, 02:06 PM
I don't know who will be available at #7 (our current position) Nor do you. I would take any number of players from Barkley to Claiborne to Blackmon over De Castro You can tell me "theyt won't be there" but you don't know any of that yet including where we'll pick. We don't know how kids are going to test, who is even declaring etc and to put a right guard on a pedestal to me is ridiculous.

how many of you even understand line play or have watched game film on DeCastro? Not many, yet people in here are calling him a special player?? based on what? a scouting report from someone who doesn't work for an NFL team?

I like Weeden as well but not in the first round unless they can trade down. I like our odds of getting a playmaker better if we stay in the top 10 and don't draft another offensive lineman.

can it not be argued that since Wannstedt, Miami has devoted more free agent dollars and high draft picks to the offensive line than any other unit? That focus has come at a tremendous price, imo, a lack of difference makers in the draft.

If you ask me, Parcells and Co overdid it with the defensive line as well. It boggles my mind that we're year 4 into this regime and we don't have anything close to a franchise QB or a Jermaine Gresham or an Aaron Hernandez much less a Graham or Gronkowski

I think the focus should be less on acquiring more linemen in the draft and more on developing the players we have now. I like Pouncey but should it take a year for him to learn how to shotgun snap? You ever notice that Matt Moore looks like he's trying to catch a wet watermelon on every third and long? why can't they get John Jerry to the point where he isn't making mental mistakes? he's obviously physically talented. or find a real RT or get Vernon Carey's fat *** in shape so he isn't always hurt or getting beat?

Part of my problem with this "O-line all the time" draft mantra is that it ignores the fact that these players have to be developed and Tony S was supposed to be an O-line guru who has had all the time and resources needed to put together a good line and he hasn't. meanwhile we're sitting with Bills like talent at the skill positions.

I haven't seen any poster on this thread come close to espousing an "O-line all the time draft mantra". You're either not reading the posts carefully enough, or you have what seems to be a significant problem with reading comprehension. Any subtlety, any nuance as to the rationale behind drafting one of the best Guard draft prospects in a decade in the top ten- in a year in which top playmakers are scarce and Blackmon/Caliborne will most likely be gone by the time we pick- has consistently gone right over your head. Your belief that a TE (seriously, Orson Charles?) would be a better pick than DeCastro speaks volumes and reeks of ignorance.

In the NFL draft you can't always get what you want- that's the way it goes. But sometimes, if you try real hard, and look at tremendous players who would provide value at need positions like David DeCstro, you get what you need. It's an anomaly, it doesn't happen very often at all. Everyone who follows the draft to any significant degree knows this, there's no mystery there. Props, of course, to Keith and Mick. "Life" by KR, btw, was a heck of a read.

So, to sum up- no one is promoting "O-line, all the time", so get that out of your head. DeCastro is a once in a blue moon OG prospect. We need an OG. Quality playmakers will most likely be scarce by the time the Dolphins pick in the first round. My focus is on Brandon Weeden. I don't think that Weeden will be available by the time we pick in the second round. I'd like to see the Fins trade down in the 1st and secure Weeden- despite the ever present age issue, I think that he's simply THAT good. I don't want to go defense with the 1st pick, but I'd rather go D than select Alshon Jeffery. Michael Floyd would give me something to think about. Whether or not you take Weeden with a hight 1st rd pick, given his age, has been troubling me for some time. And if we end up picking at #7 I think that David DeCastro would be a solid pick because, as I've said from the beginning, he's a tremendous prospect who, despite the less than ideal position that he plays in terms of being a high draft pick, offers a need/value proposition that's quite a bit higher than the playmakers who are likely to be available at #7. Including Orson Charles.

3rdandinches
12-12-2011, 02:17 PM
Son, you have a lot to learn. Is Vernon Davis a second rate TE? He went from nowhere in December to top 10 by draft day. Running a fast 40 opened the door for him to rise up the draft boards.

You should look into Dwayne Allen and Orson Charles before dismissing them. I guess that's what amateur Kipers do. They make all their picks in December and if you dare to question them, you're dead wrong.

Taking any guard top 10 is silly. Especially when your team has so much invested in the rest of their O-line. You can't defend it

as for Gholston I wasn't in his corner. I was a Matt Ryan guy. Guess i was wrong there, too.

Right back to the insults, great debating skills.

Vernon Davis do not rise up the draft boards because of his 40 time, it's really sad that I have to point that out to you.

You keep making your hindsight comparisons and I'll go by BPA along with the rest of the NFL. The funny thing about you're arguement with Jim1 and I is neither us said anything about having to draft an OL in the top ten. You made your arguement about drafting a TE that may not be worth a top 10 pick but since we've invested in OL before we shouldn't draft the next great guard and over draft a player because of the position they play.

IMHO, outside of QB there is zero positions in football that you should "reach" for, BPA and this year it will not be a TE - no matter his 40 time, lol.

3rdandinches
12-12-2011, 02:19 PM
I haven't seen any poster on this thread come close to espousing an "O-line all the time draft mantra". You're either not reading the posts carefully enough, or you have what seems to be a significant problem with reading comprehension. Any subtlety, any nuance as to the rationale behind drafting one of the best Guard draft prospects in a decade in the top ten- in a year in which top playmakers are scarce and Blackmon/Caliborne will most likely be gone by the time we pick- has consistently gone right over your head. Your belief that a TE (seriously, Orson Charles?) would be a better pick than DeCastro speaks volumes and reeks of ignorance.

In the NFL draft you can't always get what you want- that's the way it goes. But sometimes, if you try real hard, and look at tremendous players who would provide value at need positions like David DeCstro, you get what you need. It's an anomaly, it doesn't happen very often at all. Everyone who follows the draft to any significant degree knows this, there's no mystery there. Props, of course, to Keith and Mick. "Life" by KR, btw, was a heck of a read.

So, to sum up- no one is promoting "O-line, all the time", so get that out of your head. DeCastro is a once in a blue moon OG prospect. We need an OG. Quality playmakers will most likely be scarce by the time the Dolphins pick in the first round. My focus is on Brandon Weeden. I don't think that Weeden will be available by the time we pick in the second round. I'd like to see the Fins trade down in the 1st and secure Weeden- despite the ever present age issue, I think that he's simply THAT good. I don't want to go defense with the 1st pick, but I'd rather go D than select Alshon Jeffery. Michael Floyd would give me something to think about. Whether or not you take Weeden with a hight 1st rd pick, given his age, has been troubling me for some time. And if we end up picking at #7 I think that David DeCastro would be a solid pick because, as I've said from the beginning, he's a tremendous prospect who, despite the less than ideal position that he plays in terms of being a high draft pick, he offers a need/value proposition that's quite a bit higher than the playmakers who are likely to be available at #7. Including Orson Charles.

Ya but O.Charles might run a fast 40, lol!

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 02:29 PM
vernon davis got into the top 10 cause he blew away the combine...that 40 time he floated absolutely helped him get up to where he was drafted which i want to say it was #6 overall if i recall correctly...that and those jaw dropping test #s

do i see a similar rise in orson charles during the draft eval process??? i can see him testing very well and working his way up yes but into the top 10...doubtful...dwayne allens the guy at te who probably goes in round 1 if anyone provided he doesn't come in at less than 6 ft 3...he's a first round talent in my book...and coby fleener probably is another guy who's gonna test really damn well and go pretty high...maybe top 50...orson charles could fall in that category if he test as well as i think many expect him to

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 02:30 PM
LOL. Great. Another 7+ gamer on the horizon. You know that's what always happens to me. I see a guy I like and I'm compelled by some sort of OCD to just keep watching more and more.


I don't know that you'll ever run across a guy that's more fun to sit down and watch than Melvin Ingram. He does so many things that you just don't hardly ever see.

He's so good and so coordinated with his eyes/hands, he plays on the 'hands team' on special teams. He jumped up in the air and snagged the onside kick to secure the win against Georgia.

He played tailback in highschool... along with quarterback, receiver, linebacker, safety, punter, kicker, and long snapper.

He's intercepting passes dropping into coverage... including one against Auburn where he jumped in front of Lutzenkirchen to pick it off on a fake field goal attempt.

He's rushing from 3-point stance lined up at DE and DT... along with standing up and playing in space from a 2-point stance.

He's scoring 68 yard touchdowns on fake punts. You really need to watch that play. He looked like a Heisman Trophy candidate at RB on that play. Unbelievable athletic ability.

It seemed like there was 3 of him on the field against Bama last year. He was all over McElroy in that game where we gave up 7 sacks. He's the only guy I've ever seen beat James Carpenter straight up to the inside of his post leg.

Ingram led his team in sacks last year and 2nd on the team in TFL's despite playing only around half the defensive snaps.

He's worth the price of a ticket all by himself for South Carolina fans.

jim1
12-12-2011, 02:33 PM
Ya but O.Charles might run a fast 40, lol!

I hear you. I like Orson Charles. He has some compelling skills, but I have some doubts as to his blocking ability. But the issue at hand is where do you look to draft him- I'm thinking that an aggressive position would be in the 3rd round. I'm also on record as having interest in Dwayne Allen. But in the first round, ahead of David DeCastro? 'Nuff said.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 02:43 PM
I don't know that you'll ever run across a guy that's more fun to sit down and watch than Melvin Ingram. He does so many things that you just don't hardly ever see.

He's so good and so coordinated with his eyes/hands, he plays on the 'hands team' on special teams. He jumped up in the air and snagged the onside kick to secure the win against Georgia.

He played tailback in highschool... along with quarterback, receiver, linebacker, safety, punter, kicker, and long snapper.

He's intercepting passes dropping into coverage... including one against Auburn where he jumped in front of Lutzenkirchen to pick it off on a fake field goal attempt.

He's rushing from 3-point stance lined up at DE and DT... along with standing up and playing in space from a 2-point stance.

He's scoring 68 yard touchdowns on fake punts. You really need to watch that play. He looked like a Heisman Trophy candidate at RB on that play. Unbelievable athletic ability.

It seemed like there was 3 of him on the field against Bama last year. He was all over McElroy in that game where we gave up 7 sacks. He's the only guy I've ever seen beat James Carpenter straight up to the inside of his post leg.

Ingram led his team in sacks last year and 2nd on the team in TFL's despite playing only around half the defensive snaps.

He's worth the price of a ticket all by himself for South Carolina fans.

I can't declare anything without having sat down and watched him, but the guy you're describing has top 10 potential.

Just the fact that he's on the hands team on special teams already had me piqued, but the all-around versatility you describe is pretty uncommon and speaks extremely well for him.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 02:47 PM
LOL I just watched the fake punt 68 yard touchdown. That's pretty surreal. He looked like Brandon Jacobs out there. I mean seriously, I might actually think about a guy like that taking goal line hand-offs on offense.

Favorite part about that was the two announcers, one I think was Millen, in shocked disbelief that this was Melvin Ingram, and actually convincing themselves that they were watching the 6'0" and 193 lbs DeAngelo Smith until Ingram showed them the back of his jersey with his name written on it. LOL.

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 03:03 PM
LOL I just watched the fake punt 68 yard touchdown. That's pretty surreal. He looked like Brandon Jacobs out there. I mean seriously, I might actually think about a guy like that taking goal line hand-offs on offense.

Favorite part about that was the two announcers, one I think was Millen, in shocked disbelief that this was Melvin Ingram, and actually convincing themselves that they were watching the 6'0" and 193 lbs DeAngelo Smith until Ingram showed them the back of his jersey with his name written on it. LOL.


Looked like a Heisman Trophy run you'd see for a running back... I believe that's Brandon Boykin he's juking and giving the stiff arm in the open field...

I think he does have top 10 ability.


If I were to knock him, it would be his first step when he's in a 3-point stance. He's a little slow off the snap and doesn't anticipate the snap well.

However, I don't think it's any slower than Andre Branch's first step, which is terribly slow for such a hyped DE.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 03:35 PM
Alright this is just YouTube watching, not a substitute for real film watching, but on the other hand a lot of these YouTube videos that are going up have patterned a lot after the old videos I started making two years ago where you're seeing guys on every play not just highlights. Among the videos is his entire 2011 Auburn game, I believe every snap.

Couple of thoughts:

1. What he did against Alabama is all the more impressive considering how consistently slow he was off the snap, as well as his read responsibilities which saw him putting his hand on the ground a full helmet more off the ball than the rest of his line mates.

2. If you can beat Onterrio McCalebb to the off tackle lane and force him to bounce it further outside, you're a fast human.

3. All the stuff you mentioned stands out. The burst to the ball when he pulls the trigger, the hand use, the vicious spin, athleticism, awareness to peel off and chase the tailback before the QB even gets the ball out, or to find Lutzenkirchen on that fake FG, very impressive. Very strong player, great 2nd and 3rd steps. Not unlike Graham, has some trouble getting all gumby-like and cutting back up the field to chase a guy that cut inside of him. Might have a better top line than Upshaw.

4. I think I know why I haven't heard much about him yet. That slowness off the snap persists throughout the tape both years. The thing I'm not sure other people may understand is that it probably has to do with his responsibilities. If he played in a more attacking role, he'd be even more productive from a pass rushing standpoint, like Brandon Graham was at Michigan.

5. That said, I'm not all that conflicted about where I'd put him. He's a more mobile version of Brandon Graham. I'd put him at OLB in a 3-4. I like the look of him from a stand up position. You're always going to be able to find him some snaps where he can just pin his ears back and be an attack dog. But he's trained to be a more aware player and I'd want to take advantage of that, as well as his ability to hoof it. The trigger and burst to the football from a standing position is special. If he's always got his hand in the dirt, he's not really using that.

ckparrothead
12-12-2011, 03:39 PM
Looked like a Heisman Trophy run you'd see for a running back... I believe that's Brandon Boykin he's juking and giving the stiff arm in the open field...

I think he does have top 10 ability.


If I were to knock him, it would be his first step when he's in a 3-point stance. He's a little slow off the snap and doesn't anticipate the snap well.

However, I don't think it's any slower than Andre Branch's first step, which is terribly slow for such a hyped DE.

Let's be honest. Brandon Boykin had absolutely zero interest in making that tackle. It wasn't quite the Sebastian Janikowski we saw the other weekend where he "tried" to tackle Clyde Gates...but it wasn't a meaty attempt, either. Still, hell of an impressive run by Ingram. Looked like Mark Ingram, but faster. ;)

That's funny I just got done talking about the first step in the psot above. I see we agree on that. But are you with me that his first step is more a function of his role and responsibilities? I watch him and I think that if you pare down his responsibilities and allow him to attack, he'd be a lot quicker off the ball. There are some snaps when you see that.

3rdandinches
12-12-2011, 03:51 PM
vernon davis got into the top 10 cause he blew away the combine...that 40 time he floated absolutely helped him get up to where he was drafted which i want to say it was #6 overall if i recall correctly...that and those jaw dropping test #s

do i see a similar rise in orson charles during the draft eval process??? i can see him testing very well and working his way up yes but into the top 10...doubtful...dwayne allens the guy at te who probably goes in round 1 if anyone provided he doesn't come in at less than 6 ft 3...he's a first round talent in my book...and coby fleener probably is another guy who's gonna test really damn well and go pretty high...maybe top 50...orson charles could fall in that category if he test as well as i think many expect him to

V.Davis was considered the best TE prospect in college football and one of the best TE prospects in a while. He was already a mid 1st round prospect, the combine just proved the `hype`and pushed him up to a top 10 pick. There is not a single TE prospect this year in that same boat, they are at best graded 2nd round and a great combine might sneak them into the bottom of the 1st. That is considerably different then what feltch is trying to argue.

Generic Name
12-12-2011, 04:02 PM
V.Davis was considered the best TE prospect in college football and one of the best TE prospects in a while. He was already a mid 1st round prospect, the combine just proved the `hype`and pushed him up to a top 10 pick. There is not a single TE prospect this year in that same boat, they are at best graded 2nd round and a great combine might sneak them into the bottom of the 1st. That is considerably different then what feltch is trying to argue.

I don't think Davis was ever considered "one of the best TE prospects in awhile" and he rose from higher than mid-first from December to April of that year. Dwayne Allen is considered one of the best TE prospects this year so it is possible, no, that he or Charles could experience a similar meteoric rise up the charts that Davis did. Point is you do not know enough to grade the tight end prospects right now. It is ignorant and arrogant to think you can put final draft grades on these guys in December.

what am I trying to argue? You keep trying to point out that I'd take Charles or Allen with the #7 pick. Never said that. I'd try like hell to get one of the QB's and short of that or Blackmon I'd take the best available defender. all I'm saying to you flat Earthers is that there's no way in hell Miami should take your guy deCastro this year in the top 10. I don't care what his draft grade is, it is irrelevant if Miami wants to become a good team again.

I will argue that a good TE has more value than a great guard does these days and I'd rather trade down and take either TE than pick a guard in the first round.

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 04:08 PM
Let's be honest. Brandon Boykin had absolutely zero interest in making that tackle. It wasn't quite the Sebastian Janikowski we saw the other weekend where he "tried" to tackle Clyde Gates...but it wasn't a meaty attempt, either. Still, hell of an impressive run by Ingram. Looked like Mark Ingram, but faster. ;)

That's funny I just got done talking about the first step in the psot above. I see we agree on that. But are you with me that his first step is more a function of his role and responsibilities? I watch him and I think that if you pare down his responsibilities and allow him to attack, he'd be a lot quicker off the ball. There are some snaps when you see that.


Not really. Although I do agree that I like what I see out of Ingram from a 2-point stance more than I do with his hand on the ground.

Ellis Johnson's base defense is more of a nickel package in the 4-2-5 variety. He doesn't like to blitz. South Carolina isn't a blitzing defense.

They rely solely on the front 4 to attack every snap and get into the backfield to get after the quarterback. He likes his linebackers to have the responsibility in run support and underneath coverage. It's not really a gap control scheme.

The 'spur' linebacker is actually more of a safety who's dropped down, which is what you see a lot in most 4-2-5 base defenses. Different coaches call it different things (rover, spur, etc.) but he's the guy responsible for the alignment of the defensive front and getting the numbers correct.

If his lack of an elite first step was a responsibility cap, he wouldn't stay in his stance so long after the ball has been snapped... he'd be playing more of a 4i technique.


I think his lack of a first step is essentially what kept him off the field, and from becoming a full time starter as a Junior in Ellis' defense, and I think you touched on why we haven't heard more hype in Ingram's favor from the talking heads.

I'd line him up on the strongside at OLB in a base 3-4 and move him around in 4 man fronts, nickel packages, etc. He's too talented, too athletic, and too disruptive to keep off the field on 3rd downs.

He's probably going to end up a surprise for somebody. I'd take him.

TedSlimmJr
12-12-2011, 04:14 PM
Probably sneak in a few packages where he gets some carries and catches out of the backfield also, lined up at RB and/or H-back. Special teams is a given.

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 04:14 PM
V.Davis was considered the best TE prospect in college football and one of the best TE prospects in a while. He was already a mid 1st round prospect, the combine just proved the `hype`and pushed him up to a top 10 pick. There is not a single TE prospect this year in that same boat, they are at best graded 2nd round and a great combine might sneak them into the bottom of the 1st. That is considerably different then what feltch is trying to argue.

my point being that vernon davis got drafted at #6 cause he ran a almost 4.4 flat 40 at that size...he never sniffs top 6 if he doesn't run that rediculous number...

if any of these te's coming out in this draft want to even approach the top 10 they better float down that line...i'm talkin at or better than 4.5 flat...thats the kind of stuff that gets you top 10 attention

3rdandinches
12-12-2011, 04:36 PM
my point being that vernon davis got drafted at #6 cause he ran a almost 4.4 flat 40 at that size...he never sniffs top 6 if he doesn't run that rediculous number...

if any of these te's coming out in this draft want to even approach the top 10 they better float down that line...i'm talkin at or better than 4.5 flat...thats the kind of stuff that gets you top 10 attention

Any of this years TE`s run close to a 4.5 they may break into the 1st round. Feltch is arguing to take a TE in the top ten over an OL, in this years class it makes no sense, the year V.Davis came out maded a tonne of sense.

dolfan91
12-12-2011, 04:41 PM
Lets draft Decastro and end the debate!!! I'm all in for plugging up the leak that has been The Miami Dolphins Offensive Line in 2011 ... 42 sacks given up and counting!!! Long, Decastro, Pouncey, Incognito and Murtha .. I can live with that .. and I'm hope Whoever is the starting QB in 2012, likes that too!!! that line would seriously road grade the hell out of most D-lines!!

hooshoops
12-12-2011, 05:40 PM
Any of this years TE`s run close to a 4.5 they may break into the 1st round. Feltch is arguing to take a TE in the top ten over an OL, in this years class it makes no sense, the year V.Davis came out maded a tonne of sense.

i would agree with that...in this years class i'm not seeing te being in play at all that high...but outside of decastro oline wouldn't be in consideration for me either

Generic Name
12-12-2011, 05:58 PM
Any of this years TE`s run close to a 4.5 they may break into the 1st round. Feltch is arguing to take a TE in the top ten over an OL, in this years class it makes no sense, the year V.Davis came out maded a tonne of sense.

I guess you feel you have to lie about what I said to make your point about deCastro or whatever OL you want to take. Guess it doesn't matter as you don't have any of your facts right

how much is a "tonne" btw?

Generic Name
12-12-2011, 06:02 PM
Lets draft Decastro and end the debate!!! I'm all in for plugging up the leak that has been The Miami Dolphins Offensive Line in 2011 ... 42 sacks given up and counting!!! Long, Decastro, Pouncey, Incognito and Murtha .. I can live with that .. and I'm hope Whoever is the starting QB in 2012, likes that too!!! that line would seriously road grade the hell out of most D-lines!!

so, let's keep drafting OL no matter what? is that the thought process here? Geez, are you boys simplistic. If you think RG is the biggest need on this team you don't understand football or how it is played in 2011.

I'm glad you mentioned Murtha. Maybe we won't need to pick up another linemen 'til the 3rd round. Or should we take the best available OL in round 2 as well?

Liil U-street
12-13-2011, 01:03 AM
robert griffin