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View Full Version : Top 15 draft order as of 12/18/2011 - two games pending



datruth55
12-18-2011, 08:51 PM
We've got San Diego/Baltimore and San Francisco/Pittsburgh left. San Diego losing would help our SOS but it won't change our draft order.

1. 1-13 Indianapolis SOS .541
2. 2-12 Minnesota SOS .565
3. 2-12 St. Louis SOS .591
4. 4-10 Jacksonville SOS .502
5. 4-10 Cleveland SOS .530
6. 4-10 Tampa Bay SOS .543
7. 5-9 Washington SOS .466
8. 5-9 Carolina SOS .504
9. 5-9 Miami SOS .516
10. 5-9 Buffalo SOS .520
11. 6-8 Philadelphia SOS .498
12. 6-8 Kansas City SOS .511
13. 6-7 San Diego SOS .520
14. 7-7 Arizona SOS .468
15. 7-7 Tennessee SOS .468

DudeleBroski
12-18-2011, 09:02 PM
Looking at that order is depressing.

Silver lining? Maybe ****ty colts beat ****ty jags giving the rams, who have 80 mil invested in a QB, the first pick thus the possibility of trading for the first pick

Kistner10
12-18-2011, 09:44 PM
How are we ahead of Buffalo? We beat them twice

finomenal
12-18-2011, 09:52 PM
How are we ahead of Buffalo? We beat them twice

First tiebreaker is strength of schedule.

Hayden Fox
12-18-2011, 09:52 PM
How are we ahead of Buffalo? We beat them twice

Are wins are "worth" less than theirs. Their win by the Pats hurts them.

TheJetsBlow
12-18-2011, 10:25 PM
This win basically cost us 4 spots in the order. We really have to hope for a miracle to get back in the top 6 now.

datruth55
12-18-2011, 11:21 PM
How are we ahead of Buffalo? We beat them twice
Head-to-head doesn't matter in the draft order. First tie breaker, like finomenal said, is the strength of schedule.

kcbrown
12-19-2011, 12:53 AM
1. 1-13 Indianapolis SOS .541 - QB Need
2. 2-12 Minnesota SOS .565 -
3. 2-12 St. Louis SOS .591
4. 4-10 Jacksonville SOS .502
5. 4-10 Cleveland SOS .530 - QB Need
6. 4-10 Tampa Bay SOS .543
7. 5-9 Washington SOS .466 - QB Need
8. 5-9 Carolina SOS .504
9. 5-9 Miami SOS .516
10. 5-9 Buffalo SOS .520
11. 6-8 Philadelphia SOS .498
12. 6-8 Kansas City SOS .511
13. 6-7 San Diego SOS .520
14. 7-7 Arizona SOS .468
15. 7-7 Tennessee SOS .468


Looks good to me so far....only 3 teams before us need a QB, therefore, Luck, Barkley and RGIII will be gone. Either we move up to take RGIII (or Barkley - no way Colts give up on Luck), go for Peyton Manning, or take the fourth best/rated QB.

So who is that QB?

Cloudy
12-19-2011, 01:39 AM
I was afraid something like this would happen..

Valandui
12-19-2011, 01:52 AM
1. 1-13 Indianapolis SOS .541 - QB Need
2. 2-12 Minnesota SOS .565 -
3. 2-12 St. Louis SOS .591
4. 4-10 Jacksonville SOS .502
5. 4-10 Cleveland SOS .530 - QB Need
6. 4-10 Tampa Bay SOS .543
7. 5-9 Washington SOS .466 - QB Need
8. 5-9 Carolina SOS .504
9. 5-9 Miami SOS .516
10. 5-9 Buffalo SOS .520
11. 6-8 Philadelphia SOS .498
12. 6-8 Kansas City SOS .511
13. 6-7 San Diego SOS .520
14. 7-7 Arizona SOS .468
15. 7-7 Tennessee SOS .468


Looks good to me so far....only 3 teams before us need a QB, therefore, Luck, Barkley and RGIII will be gone. Either we move up to take RGIII (or Barkley - no way Colts give up on Luck), go for Peyton Manning, or take the fourth best/rated QB.

So who is that QB?
Tannehill or Weeden.

JCane
12-19-2011, 01:57 AM
Complete disaster season.

We'll have nothing left picking 9th. So we're basically forced to hand over a lot in this draft and future drafts in order to move up and get a QB.

Kistner10
12-19-2011, 03:23 AM
Thanks for the info. Surprised to see that even though we beat Buffalo twice that it's SOS first as a tiebreaker.

Kistner10
12-19-2011, 03:24 AM
Complete disaster season.

We'll have nothing left picking 9th. So we're basically forced to hand over a lot in this draft and future drafts in order to move up and get a QB.

So what. We don't have a ton of holes on this team so why not go all in this year and get Barkley/Luck/RGIII. We can fill in RT and a backup OLB in free agency and draft another G prospect in the middle rounds. Jerry seems like he should have the inside track on the RG spot if Carey leaves. It's time to go all in

Valandui
12-19-2011, 03:32 AM
Complete disaster season.

We'll have nothing left picking 9th. So we're basically forced to hand over a lot in this draft and future drafts in order to move up and get a QB.
What are you talking about? The win today against Buffalo's third stringers was awesome. Don't worry, the draft will take care of itself.

JCane
12-19-2011, 03:51 AM
So what. We don't have a ton of holes on this team so why not go all in this year and get Barkley/Luck/RGIII. We can fill in RT and a backup OLB in free agency and draft another G prospect in the middle rounds. Jerry seems like he should have the inside track on the RG spot if Carey leaves. It's time to go all in

I'm not saying that we shouldn't go all in. It's absolutely the best move to make and it's the right move.

My problem is, this season was, in my opinion, over with the loss to Cleveland. Now we've won five games. Most seasons, five wins is good enough to get you a top five pick. Unfortunately for us, there are A LOT of bad football teams this season. Now, we have to spend a lot to move up. Like you said, there's not a lot of holes on this team. So this is the perfect season for us to have a high draft pick because this is the year we could have gotten the franchise quarterback AND added depth. We can't really add a lot of quality depth now. We need more defensive lineman. That's how you build Super Bowl caliber defenses in this league now. If you can rotate a fresh set of legs in for every play, you can REALLY pin the ears back and get in the face of the QB.

rainmaker1313
12-19-2011, 05:04 AM
We can trade up with St Louis or Jax. I am also not sure both of them are happy with their QB'S. One might go for Barkley. But if not, we can trade up. I would only do it for Barkley or Luck!

Kistner10
12-19-2011, 05:17 AM
I'm not saying that we shouldn't go all in. It's absolutely the best move to make and it's the right move.

My problem is, this season was, in my opinion, over with the loss to Cleveland. Now we've won five games. Most seasons, five wins is good enough to get you a top five pick. Unfortunately for us, there are A LOT of bad football teams this season. Now, we have to spend a lot to move up. Like you said, there's not a lot of holes on this team. So this is the perfect season for us to have a high draft pick because this is the year we could have gotten the franchise quarterback AND added depth. We can't really add a lot of quality depth now. We need more defensive lineman. That's how you build Super Bowl caliber defenses in this league now. If you can rotate a fresh set of legs in for every play, you can REALLY pin the ears back and get in the face of the QB.

The good thing is that not too many teams ahead of us are going to take a QB in the first round so we should have plenty of trading options. It'd be nice to get another DL prospect in the 3rd or 4th round especially if we lose Langford. The good thing is that Merling is showing some potential so his loss shouldn't be that big.

JCane
12-19-2011, 05:27 AM
I dunno. We're 9th currently. We know Indianapolis will take Andrew Luck.

We need Matt Barkley.

Jacksonville, Washington, and Cleveland would all take Barkley if given the opportunity. Possibly Minnesota but I think they've seen enough of Ponder to give him another year. St. Louis is a tough partner to trade with. I think they're eying Blackmon and they're not going to want to deal to a spot behind Tampa because Freeman needs a weapon at receiver as well. Minnesota seems to be our best shot at trading up.

Valandui
12-19-2011, 06:04 AM
If we can't get Barkley or Luck, I think we should focus on someone like Courtney Upshaw and try to land Weeden or Tannehill in the second. I really doubt Tannehill lasts until the second round, though.

spiketex
12-19-2011, 09:46 AM
1. 1-13 Indianapolis SOS .541 - QB Need
2. 2-12 Minnesota SOS .565 -
3. 2-12 St. Louis SOS .591
4. 4-10 Jacksonville SOS .502
5. 4-10 Cleveland SOS .530 - QB Need
6. 4-10 Tampa Bay SOS .543
7. 5-9 Washington SOS .466 - QB Need
8. 5-9 Carolina SOS .504
9. 5-9 Miami SOS .516
10. 5-9 Buffalo SOS .520
11. 6-8 Philadelphia SOS .498
12. 6-8 Kansas City SOS .511
13. 6-7 San Diego SOS .520
14. 7-7 Arizona SOS .468
15. 7-7 Tennessee SOS .468


Looks good to me so far....only 3 teams before us need a QB, therefore, Luck, Barkley and RGIII will be gone. Either we move up to take RGIII (or Barkley - no way Colts give up on Luck), go for Peyton Manning, or take the fourth best/rated QB.

So who is that QB?

Your logic is solid but teams like Jacksonville and Minnesota might conclude that their 2011 QBs are not as good as projected and double down in the draft with the opportunity to draft a better QB prospect like Barkley or RGIII. Probably unlikely, but with limited opportunities to draft a franchise QB, they may let Gabbert and or Ponder go if they think that they made a mistake.

MRojas4
12-19-2011, 10:00 AM
I'm just going to laugh when RGIII falls into our lap. Everyone freaking out about Washington and Cleveland.

Shanny wont be drafting RGIII, doesnt fit his system and Cleveland will keep rolling with McCoy.

whodizking
12-19-2011, 10:31 AM
I think mccoy is done in Cleveland for sure, jaxs the only other team I think might give up on rookie gabbert that will shake up the draft......trade up with Voluntary becuz getting a C they prolly can drop down and still snatch him, unless they go Blackmon which I think they might. I give either those teams Marshall and our 1st and 3rd round pick to move up or next years 2nd....then go all out for a WR in free agency or trade for a disgruntledone and maybe draft a WR in 2nd round. (I love Marshall but QB triumphs WR sorry)

whodizking
12-19-2011, 10:34 AM
The Browns are the team that can prolly trade up for anyone but Luck becuz they have a ton of picks. Soooo Barkley will be hard to get. RG3 then will be in high demand. Or if they both decide to go back to school then I hope we take the best playa available that is a playmaker.

MRojas4
12-19-2011, 10:39 AM
Yeah! Lets trade our #1 WR for a rookie QB that might not make it.

And these are the same people complaining a few years ago that we need a big time WR.

Some of you guys just roll with the tide, ridiculous.

How about we keep Marshall, sign another big time WR like DeSean Jackson and trade some picks to move up in the draft or just take the BPA.

jlfin
12-19-2011, 10:45 AM
We can trade up with St Louis or Jax. I am also not sure both of them are happy with their QB'S. One might go for Barkley. But if not, we can trade up. I would only do it for Barkley or Luck!

If St Louis falls in love with Barkley, then offer our 1st for Bradford. It wouldn't hurt for our FO to put out some feelers for Bradford.

nyashfan
12-19-2011, 10:46 AM
The Browns won't win another game as they have Baltimore and Pittsburgh remaining. Jacksonville has Tennessee and Indy so it's barely possible that Jacksonville could win out (the Dolphins will lose the SOS tiebreaker if Jacksonville ends up with only 5 wins). Washington, however, plays Minnesota next week so they will likely have 6 wins. Of course the Dolphins will be highly motivated to knock the Jets out of the playoffs, so the Dolphins still have a chance of going 6-10 themselves.

whodizking
12-19-2011, 10:49 AM
No I really wanna keep Marshall but i rather have a franchise QB, if we can trade up with giving more picks I'm down. Jackson would be nice as a add on but don't know if Miami wants his drama but i can see Ross liking the big name....(hey I'm just talking football, I don't try to be offensive either so please let's just debate, don't take personal thanks)

I don't mind BPA either, but I'm not sold on Moore for one reason, I wanna see him do it when it matters and this year I don't think we can see that. Thanksgiving I think he was up and down becuz of nerves I feel But then he got hott but then died alittle at the end. That's why I like a new young prospect behind him

ChrisHanson
12-19-2011, 11:06 AM
I dunno. We're 9th currently. We know Indianapolis will take Andrew Luck.

We need Matt Barkley.

Jacksonville, Washington, and Cleveland would all take Barkley if given the opportunity. Possibly Minnesota but I think they've seen enough of Ponder to give him another year. St. Louis is a tough partner to trade with. I think they're eying Blackmon and they're not going to want to deal to a spot behind Tampa because Freeman needs a weapon at receiver as well. Minnesota seems to be our best shot at trading up.

If Manning is healthy I don't see the Colts taking Luck for anything other than trade bait.

ChrisHanson
12-19-2011, 11:10 AM
If St Louis falls in love with Barkley, then offer our 1st for Bradford. It wouldn't hurt for our FO to put out some feelers for Bradford.

Do you think the Dolphins are going to offer their 1st and agree to pay Bradfords $80 mil contract?! That's just crazy talk. There is NO WAY the Rams get rid of Bradford. With the new rookie wage scale Luck, Barkley, RGIII, etc etc will be had for a 1/4 of that money. The Rams are stuck with Bradford.

ChrisHanson
12-19-2011, 11:13 AM
I think mccoy is done in Cleveland for sure, jaxs the only other team I think might give up on rookie gabbert that will shake up the draft......trade up with Voluntary becuz getting a C they prolly can drop down and still snatch him, unless they go Blackmon which I think they might. I give either those teams Marshall and our 1st and 3rd round pick to move up or next years 2nd....then go all out for a WR in free agency or trade for a disgruntledone and maybe draft a WR in 2nd round. (I love Marshall but QB triumphs WR sorry)

I wouldn't say McCoy's done "for sure", but it wouldn't surprise me to see them attempt to trade him.

TedSlimmJr
12-19-2011, 11:57 AM
If St Louis falls in love with Barkley, then offer our 1st for Bradford. It wouldn't hurt for our FO to put out some feelers for Bradford.


Miami already has a Sam Bradford. His name is Matt Moore.

whodizking
12-19-2011, 12:18 PM
I wouldn't say McCoy's done "for sure", but it wouldn't surprise me to see them attempt to trade him.

I don't see how they wanna keep him. I don't think they feel he is a franchise QB. I mean Wallace played Sunday and made Little look good. Finally somebody got him the ball. Mccoy has some ability but i don't think he is a franchise changer. Unless they feel Trent richerson is more appealing since they might get rid of hillis (which i hope so and hope u are right.
But that's why i think they gather so many picks so this year after project Mccoy is over they can grab a new prospect.

On a second note, I would not take bradford on and his contract. But I think the Rams believe in the kid but they can't block so he is getting rocked this year. He had no WR to think of until Loyld and he is just trying to get in rythem with him. So I doubt they do anything else but blackmon or trade down if they get a offer they can't pass up.

whodizking
12-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Miami already has a Sam Bradford. His name is Matt Moore.


That I agree with, hopefully maybe Moore is the next big thing but do the football gods bless us with a hidden gem or fools gold like Fitzpatrick. I still draft a young prospect and be in the dilemma the Charger was in years ago with brees and rivers

SkapePhin
12-19-2011, 12:44 PM
We need to lose out to have a chance at the QBs....

Come on Patriots / Jets! DONT DISAPPOINT US!

datruth55
12-19-2011, 12:48 PM
We need to lose out to have a chance at the QBs....

Come on Patriots / Jets! DONT DISAPPOINT US!
Don't see us beating the Patriots but if beating the Jets means they don't make the playoffs then forget the draft, beat the freakin Jets. They used to do it do us in the 80's and 90's and it's about time we return the favor. We're going to have to trade up regardless if we want a QB. In 2007 6-10 got us the #9 overall pick (which Cameron/Mueller used on Ted Ginn), it very well could be the same pick.

Kistner10
12-19-2011, 01:32 PM
Jacksonville, Minnesota, and Tennessee will not be taking a QB in the first round.

Yes Gabbert looks awful, but it doesn't matter. They won't take a QB in the first round this year. They're not going to give up on him because he struggled his rookie year.

datruth55
12-19-2011, 02:24 PM
I don't see how they wanna keep him. I don't think they feel he is a franchise QB. I mean Wallace played Sunday and made Little look good. Finally somebody got him the ball. Mccoy has some ability but i don't think he is a franchise changer. Unless they feel Trent richerson is more appealing since they might get rid of hillis (which i hope so and hope u are right.
But that's why i think they gather so many picks so this year after project Mccoy is over they can grab a new prospect.

On a second note, I would not take bradford on and his contract. But I think the Rams believe in the kid but they can't block so he is getting rocked this year. He had no WR to think of until Loyld and he is just trying to get in rythem with him. So I doubt they do anything else but blackmon or trade down if they get a offer they can't pass up.
Little has been inconsistant since his days back in North Carolina. He may have a good game and come back with 3 or 4 drops in the next game. It didn't matter who was QB of that team, McCoy or Wallace, the result was the same. The offense needs to be retooled for the WCO and it needs to start with a receiving corp. There are a lot of QBs who have excelled in the WCO such as Matt Schaub and Matt Hasselbeck, two late round QBs, and others who have just flat out dominated in it like Brett Favre (2nd round pick), Aaron Rodgers (1st round pick), Joe Montana (3rd round pick) because of not only their skill set but the team that was put in place around them. If you put X QB in Clevelands WCO the results will be the same. They have nothing. Really if not for the 76 yard TD by Little he would have had another average, ho-hum day, same with Wallace. Their offense is just not good, they need a lot more talent on the offensive side of the ball before they give up on McCoy.

IMO St. Louis screwed up by switching from the WCO to Josh McDaniels offense. Bradford was much more effective last year then he is this year. You got two QBs who've been in the league two years with two different offenses and for Bradford next year it will be three years in the league with 3 different offenses in all likelihood. I just don't think you can fairly judge a QB, a rookie, who has to pick up all the nuances of the NFL and learn a new offense every year they're in the league.

whodizking
12-19-2011, 02:40 PM
Little has been inconsistant since his days back in North Carolina. He may have a good game and come back with 3 or 4 drops in the next game. It didn't matter who was QB of that team, McCoy or Wallace, the result was the same. The offense needs to be retooled for the WCO and it needs to start with a receiving corp. There are a lot of QBs who have excelled in the WCO such as Matt Schaub and Matt Hasselbeck, two late round QBs, and others who have just flat out dominated in it like Brett Favre (2nd round pick), Aaron Rodgers (1st round pick), Joe Montana (3rd round pick) because of not only their skill set but the team that was put in place around them. If you put X QB in Clevelands WCO the results will be the same. They have nothing. Really if not for the 76 yard TD by Little he would have had another average, ho-hum day, same with Wallace. Their offense is just not good, they need a lot more talent on the offensive side of the ball before they give up on McCoy.

IMO St. Louis screwed up by switching from the WCO to Josh McDaniels offense. Bradford was much more effective last year then he is this year. You got two QBs who've been in the league two years with two different offenses and for Bradford next year it will be three years in the league with 3 different offenses in all likelihood. I just don't think you can fairly judge a QB, a rookie, who has to pick up all the nuances of the NFL and learn a new offense every year they're in the league.

You might be right about the Browns, I just felt watching some of the game that it look alittle better with Wallace. But in all actuality I hope you are right lol. I'm just not sure their FO is sold on the kid. But just my opinion


Now with Bradford I truly agree, he did so good last year and i didn't even like him. Mcdaniels offense might take a while for him to get and a while until they have the talent to run that offense. That's if the staff doesn't get wiped out.

fitskin
12-19-2011, 04:43 PM
Jacksonville, Minnesota, and Tennessee will not be taking a QB in the first round.

Yes Gabbert looks awful, but it doesn't matter. They won't take a QB in the first round this year. They're not going to give up on him because he struggled his rookie year.

Don't sleep on Jacksonville, a new regime couldn't care less about when and where Gabbert was drafted.

Ed Norton
12-19-2011, 04:53 PM
Seeing it listed now really makes this a tough win to swallow. The Dolphins could have been 5th in the draft! Any trade up is so much easier from that spot or you could at least probably get Weeden if you don't do anything. I'm worried about other teams trading up as well as the teams in front. Especially after last year it seems like even the slowest front offices are figuring out that you need a QB.

Kistner10
12-19-2011, 04:59 PM
Don't sleep on Jacksonville, a new regime couldn't care less about when and where Gabbert was drafted.

They'll have a new coach, but they just gave their GM who drafted Gabbert a extension. They won't be drafting a QB in the first round.

JEDIJ007
12-19-2011, 05:25 PM
They'll have a new coach, but they just gave their GM who drafted Gabbert a extension. They won't be drafting a QB in the first round.

Doesnt mean **** Ross gave Moran-0 an extention....How did that work out?

Kistner10
12-19-2011, 05:51 PM
Doesnt mean **** Ross gave Moran-0 an extention....How did that work out?

They just gave the GM an extension 3 Weeks ago. It does mean something. It means he's not going anywhere for the next year.

The extension for Sparano was a different scenario. It was an attempt to give him more power over his players since he'd been casterated by Ross during the whole Harbaugh fiasco.

Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Totally different things. So AGAIN, Jacksonville will NOT be drafting a QB in the first round. There is no way the GM is hiring anyone who is going to discard Gabbert right away. They might bring in a veteran to compete with him, but they won't be drafting a QB in the first round.

datruth55
12-19-2011, 06:31 PM
You might be right about the Browns, I just felt watching some of the game that it look alittle better with Wallace. But in all actuality I hope you are right lol. I'm just not sure their FO is sold on the kid. But just my opinion


Now with Bradford I truly agree, he did so good last year and i didn't even like him. Mcdaniels offense might take a while for him to get and a while until they have the talent to run that offense. That's if the staff doesn't get wiped out.

Well Holmgren did draft McCoy and he showed a lot of patience with Favre...we'll see what happens but I think they look to address the receiving corp with Blackmon or Jeffery. They have New Englands first round pick as well which could end up being Fleener, a RT or possibly Tannehill if they want insurance against McCoy.

Kistner10
12-19-2011, 06:49 PM
Well Holmgren did draft McCoy and he showed a lot of patience with Favre...we'll see what happens but I think they look to address the receiving corp with Blackmon or Jeffery. They have New Englands first round pick as well which could end up being Fleener, a RT or possibly Tannehill if they want insurance against McCoy.

Cleveland is a wildcard IMO. I think they definately need a QB, but some teams like CLE and WAS might be willing to go the veteran route. CLE could go with a vet and let Mccoy develop longer behind him and draft Blackmon in the first. Might be wishful thinking but you never know.

houtz
12-19-2011, 11:17 PM
Let's keep in mind some of those teams in front of us will fill their need for a QB in FA. And others (Jax,Cle,Min) might feel like it would be better to draft playmakers for their young, rookies.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 12:07 AM
**** me

cleveland now is in front of us likely for good and has the ammo of an extra 1st rounder to trade up if need be...

if its not luck or barkley i'd be looking to get sam bradford from st louis...he's better than freakin matt moore...he needs protection and weapons and health at this stage...he's more talented than any qb in this draft not named luck or barkley

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 12:13 AM
Jacksonville, Minnesota, and Tennessee will not be taking a QB in the first round.

Yes Gabbert looks awful, but it doesn't matter. They won't take a QB in the first round this year. They're not going to give up on him because he struggled his rookie year.

how the hell you know that??? he looks like dog ****...and its a much bigger problem than the oline and wrs like some of these clueless cats want to believe...much bigger...he's scared ****less of contact yet won't get rid of the ball as soon as there's a hint of inside pressure his eyes go down he wants to bail every time laterally instead of climbing the pocket...i'm sorry but if you're a teammate of his and you see how much of a ***** he is on tape every week there's no way you get behind that guy...you might throw out some bull**** publicly but privately your all sayin this kid is not the guy...and the staff has to see it as well...the only thing thats saving jax from taking a qb is that new owner having no damn clue about the american game and players...and i guess thats possible...cause the tape BLOWS DICK

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 12:58 AM
They're not replacing Blaine Gabbert after his rookie year. Not while Gene Smith is their General Manager and last I checked he got a contract extension immediately upon agreement for Shahid Khan to buy the team. I don't care what you think of Gabbert. It doesn't matter. They're not replacing him.

AZStryker
12-20-2011, 01:03 AM
CK, in your opinion, are there any other franchise QB's outside of Luck/Barkley in this draft???

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 01:05 AM
well then that pick for jax needs to be de opposite mincey who can play...coples of unc...blackmons not getting there

ck just for exercise purposes you are staring at matt barkley as jax with your top pick your the gm you've seen a years worth of gabberts tape...you passing???

Kistner10
12-20-2011, 01:19 AM
well then that pick for jax needs to be de opposite mincey who can play...coples of unc...blackmons not getting there

ck just for exercise purposes you are staring at matt barkley as jax with your top pick your the gm you've seen a years worth of gabberts tape...you passing???

It's not what you, I, or CK would do. It only matters what Gene Smith is going to do. He's not going to give up on a QB he drafted in the 1st round a year ago. They also traded up to get him. They have a lot of needs, WR being the biggest.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 01:27 AM
It's not what you, I, or CK would do. It only matters what Gene Smith is going to do. He's not going to give up on a QB he drafted in the 1st round a year ago. They also traded up to get him. They have a lot of needs, WR being the biggest.

gene smith is gonna pull the rug over the owners eyes then...i feel bad for that foreign fella...he's gonna get took by smith...i agree that wr a big need but blackmons not getting to them so the next big need if its not damn qb which should be the top priority but i digress is pass rushing edge player or cb...after they win against indy week 17 i think its coples all the way

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 01:34 AM
I did a pretty in depth study of the strength of schedules, remaining opponents across the board, etc.

I think if Miami loses these next two, which they should, then we should expect them to pick #7 overall behind the Colts, Rams, Vikings, Jaguars, Browns and Buccaneers, most likely in that order.

There are some breaks Miami could catch that would put them higher. For instance if the Bucs somehow come away from the Panthers game with a victory, and then the Panthers get a victory in Week 17 from the Saints because the Saints know they're out of bye week contention, we could jump from #7 to #6 overall. If the Steelers know by Week 17 that they're out of AFC North division champion contention with the Ravens (who swept them in head to head) then they could start pulling their starters against the Browns and hand the Browns an unexpected victory. If that and the above Bucs/Panthers/Saints scenario all play out...then Miami could be picking #5.

But I wouldn't count on that. Essentially, we're already picking #8 overall because the Bucs and Panthers play one another next week and whichever one wins will get scooted behind us in the pecking order. I expect to be picking #7 overall once the Redskins find a way to win one more game, probably against the hapless Vikings. And I expect St. Louis to be picking #2 after the hapless Vikings find a win against the even-more-hapless Caleb Hanie/Nate Enderle/Josh McCown Bears.

The Bills could leap ahead of us on a Strength of Schedule tie, which would induce division tiebreakers, and since we swept them they'd get ahead of us.

But for that to happen, some combination of four of the following would need to happen:

Cardinals beat Bengals
Ravens beat Bengals
Browns beat Ravens
Browns beat Steelers
Texans beat Colts
Jaguars beat Titans
Texans beat Titans (double points)

The "(double points)" means that if the Titans beat the Texans in Week 17, then the Bills would need five of the other six outcomes to happen in their favor...in order to end up with a tiebreak over us.

And I just don't see that happening.

And even if Cleveland is picking ahead of us I don't see that big a deal. They could go after a QB in free agency or by trade. Mike Holmgren has to be feeling the pressure to win pretty soon. He's been there a couple of years and the team just seems to get worse. Colt McCoy was purely his call in the 3rd round and that's not panning out. Maybe he doesn't feel like he has the time for a young guy, especially a non-Luck young guy.

And let's say he doesn't take a veteran...I think he will end up taking Robert Griffin over Matt Barkley. Matt Barkley and Colt McCoy would be fast friends on that team (they already are acquaintances and Barkley lists McCoy as one of the people he'll speak to as he decides whether to come out or not) and that's not a good thing, because I sense a rift developing between the McCoy Family (his dad gets too involved, see BCS Championship Game) and the Browns especially over this whole concussion fiasco. Even before that, Colt has made some curious statements to the press about how he's been handled by the Browns since he's been there. Whoever they take in the 1st round isn't going to understudy Colt McCoy, IMO. He's going to understudy Seneca Wallace. And do you think Matt Barkley is more likely to gain valuable insight from understudying Seneca Wallace, or Robert Griffin III? If they have RG3 sitting behind Seneca then they don't have to change offenses according to who is going to play. They can feel free to get RG3 live reps at his own pace to get his feet wet, and they don't have to run anything special or unpredictable. He'll be learning the offense the way Seneca Wallace runs it, and that offense fits RG3 pretty well. Lots of screens, lots of short stuff, some quarterback movement, and then deep ball. I realize that the last QB that people saw Holmgren being successful with was Matt Hasselbeck, and that looks a little Matt Barkley-ish. But in Green Bay, where Holmgren won a championship, it was Brett Favre...and that's DEFINITELY more Robert Griffin-ish. That's what keeps drawing Holmgren to Seneca Wallace, and that's why he drafted McCoy who has wheels and ran a lot of spread-option at Texas.

Listen I like Matt Barkley and I know Slimm likes Matt Barkley and I know hoops you like him as well. But I don't think this pool of talking opinions is indicative of what you generally find out there about him. Just in the Universal Draft trio by itself, I like him, Simon hates him, and Richard is mixed but thinks he's probably worth a 1st rounder (but more toward the middle or bottom). THAT in my opinion is more indicative of what you find in the league as far as opinion on Barkley.

And this draft process is not made for a Matt Barkley. He's a guy that goes out and wins you football games, takes control of a huddle, leads players, operates an offense and hits you with superb accuracy and fundamentals. He's not going to raise any eyebrows when he gets off the bus. He's not going thoroughly impress you and set your tongue wagging about how incredibly thoughtful and smart he was in his interview. He's not going to leave smoke trails on the ball when he throws at his Pro Day (seriously doubt he throws at the Combine). He's not going to cause any scouts or decision makers to splutter their coffee when they see their stopwatch at the Combine. What he does best, he does during the games, and by the time he gets drafted he'll have not had an opportunity to show that in about 5 months. That's almost half a damn year.

I'm not saying he's falling out of the 1st round or to the bottom of it or anything. I'm just saying that by the time we get to Draft day I'll be surprised if a lot of teams are creaming all over themselves trying to package up a heavy amount of picks to move up and get the guy that hasn't given you anything new to be super impressed with in half a year.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 01:41 AM
what the hell does simon hate about matt barkley??? i understand that he's not gonna wow anyone with his arm in workouts or run in the 4.4's like griffin is likely to do but imo at least and i've watched every game luck and barkley had this season barkley put out the most consistent tape of any qb in this draft...

anyways...the scenarios in the last 2 weeks you present ck sound logical and likely to me...seems like we're out of any top 5 consideration at this point

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 01:42 AM
well then that pick for jax needs to be de opposite mincey who can play...coples of unc...blackmons not getting there

ck just for exercise purposes you are staring at matt barkley as jax with your top pick your the gm you've seen a years worth of gabberts tape...you passing???

After the year Gabbert's had? Hell no I'm not passing on Matt Barkley to keep Blaine Gabbert! I'm with you all the way there.

But I'm not Gene Smith. I didn't send a 2nd round pick to trade up for Blaine Gabbert at #10 overall even though my Head Coach didn't like him that much. I didn't have my Head Coach fired for benching Blaine in the 4th quarter of a game because I worried that he might mess with Blaine's development.

Gene Smith has all his eggs in the Gabbert basket. He put those eggs there himself. You say he's got to choose a defensive end to go opposite Mincey. That could happen, but I don't expect it to. Smith is taking on water for the Blaine Gabbert thing and his hands are tied, he can't (and likely has zero inclination to) replace Gabbert immediately but he sure can give him more than the dog meat they have at receiver trying to catch passes for Blaine. I agree that all of Blaine's problems are not exclusive to the awful receivers unit...but a LOT of them certainly are. That is by far the worst receivers unit in the league and it's not even close.

Not. Even. Close. I honestly don't think I have ever seen a receivers unit that bad. I'm trying to think, I haven't seen one.

Justin Blackmon PROBABLY won't make it to #4 overall...but I truly believe that Michael Floyd is going to blow the doors of the Combine, interview well making teams forget about the DUIs, make some teams question whether he's legitimately better than Justin Blackmon (the way some wondered whether Julio Jones was legitimately better than A.J. Green), and he could very well end up that #4 overall pick. He's a very good player. They've had sh-t for QB play since Jimmy Clausen left, but when Clausen was there, Floyd was a HUGE deep threat and a far better player than Golden Tate.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 01:50 AM
you can't blame the wrs for the kid over and over being unwilling to just get rid of the damn ball and throw the ball away...how many times have i seen him pump once pump twice and then go into the fetal position while the rush has just engulfed him...how many times have i seen him have an edge rusher in his vision take him down for big losses that all he's got to do is dump the damn ball or throw it into the stands...i can't count em...how many times have i seen him on short yardage bailing on throws in the slot even against a unaccounted edge rusher and missing the throw when he needs to stand in and deliver to move the sticks...

like i said earlier i am damn glad we aren't wasting our time with that garbage...cause thats all he is...a waste of time...you can't even depend on that guy as a backup down the road...

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 01:51 AM
what the hell does simon hate about matt barkley??? i understand that he's not gonna wow anyone with his arm in workouts or run in the 4.4's like griffin is likely to do but imo at least and i've watched every game luck and barkley had this season barkley put out the most consistent tape of any qb in this draft...

anyways...the scenarios in the last 2 weeks you present ck sound logical and likely to me...seems like we're out of any top 5 consideration at this point

Simon's gripe has to do with deep ball accuracy and arm strength. He also sees instances of Barkley getting confused by coverages and making the wrong decision. Essentially it boils down to the physical argument, he watches Barkley and he's underwhelmed. He's not seeing big throws, he's not seeing big plays made under pressure, not seeing the 30 to 40 yard rockets you need to be comfortable with at the NFL level, etc.

I see a lot of what Simon's talking about but I also see a lot of what he says he doesn't see...so it's just a big difference of opinion the two of us have.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 01:54 AM
deep ball accuracy??? i take issue with that very much...the big arm...i understand that argument...but its plenty good enough...i can understand the kid lacks the physical tools to be drafted with a top 5 pick but i think what he lacks in that regard he makes up for with intangibles and fantastic feet

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 01:54 AM
you can't blame the wrs for the kid over and over being unwilling to just get rid of the damn ball and throw the ball away...how many times have i seen him pump once pump twice and then go into the fetal position while the rush has just engulfed him...how many times have i seen him have an edge rusher in his vision take him down for big losses that all he's got to do is dump the damn ball or throw it into the stands...i can't count em...how many times have i seen him on short yardage bailing on throws in the slot even against a unaccounted edge rusher and missing the throw when he needs to stand in and deliver to move the sticks...

like i said earlier i am damn glad we aren't wasting our time with that garbage...cause thats all he is...a waste of time...you can't even depend on that guy as a backup down the road...

Basically I look at those wide receivers and I see zero separation, lots of dropped, balls, play calling that has ZERO faith in the wide receivers' ability to get open, and of course no real run after the catch skills to speak of. The unit needs a serious talent enema. I think they picked up a decent talent in Taylor Price, off waivers. He's got issues but he's also probably the one guy that can create separation on the outside. Mike Thomas is a slot receiver, a #3 guy, always should have been just that.

Miami put in a claim for Taylor Price but the Jaguars got first priority. Too bad. I still think he could be good and New England could be sorry to have cut him. But right now in Jacksonville he's still learning the offense and getting very, very few reps during games.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 01:57 AM
taylor price can play in this league...that was a nice get by jax...he just needs time and someone who believes in him...i know i do

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 02:08 AM
deep ball accuracy??? i take issue with that very much...the big arm...i understand that argument...but its plenty good enough...i can understand the kid lacks the physical tools to be drafted with a top 5 pick but i think what he lacks in that regard he makes up for with intangibles and fantastic feet

Well to be honest he completes about 30% of his deep passes (I've verified all these numbers by hand, of course) and considering it's the college level and his receivers are Robert Woods and Marqise Lee...those guys can bail you out of some under throws and also turn that 30% figure into more like a 45% figure when you count up all the defensive pass interference calls they draw.

If I'm being honest with myself his deep ball accuracy isn't great for an NFL player. It's about the average to above average level for an NFL starter, and mostly needs better timing in order to be better. The passes themselves can flutter or not get great spin. I don't think his deep ball is as accurate as T.J. Yates' was, as a for instance.

But there's a key point to note about Barkley's deep ball and that is the decision making. It tends to be NEARLY flawless, which makes up for any accuracy/timing issues that cause passes to go incomplete. There are still probably four games or so I never got round to cataloging but one thing that I could see right away is that there was pretty much only two instances (I think) of him throwing a deep ball that went incomplete because a safety got over and helped the coverage out. Some might say that's a small thing, but maybe it's not. It points to the decision-making on the deep throw. Before you even throw that ball, if you're using your pre-snap and post-snap reads to ensure that you're throwing the ball into single coverage, to a spot where no safety is really going to get involved in the play, then it doesn't matter what your accuracy is like, it doesn't matter how many revolutions you get on the ball or whether it flutters, you've already significantly increased your chances of success on the play purely by decision-making. And when you consider that the rate at which Barkley throws the deep ball is very HIGH on an NFL comparative basis, he's not accomplishing the decision-making record simply by hardly ever throwing it.

How many times have we seen a QB, especially Chad Henne, come off play-action with his back turned to the defense, get his head around, then throw a shot into a crowd of defensive backs that weren't fooled by the play-action?

As for the arm strength stuff...myself, yeah sometimes I am a little disturbed by the sheer lack of numbers when it comes to those 30-40 yard rifle shots. Even more disturbed that if I'm tracking the success/catch percentage of the ones he does throw, they're lower than the success/catch percentage of the "deep ball".

I think Slimm brought up the best point in that regard...in that his arm is still maturing. He's only 3 years out of high school.

TedSlimmJr
12-20-2011, 02:09 AM
I did a pretty in depth study of the strength of schedules, remaining opponents across the board, etc.

I think if Miami loses these next two, which they should, then we should expect them to pick #7 overall behind the Colts, Rams, Vikings, Jaguars, Browns and Buccaneers, most likely in that order.

There are some breaks Miami could catch that would put them higher. For instance if the Bucs somehow come away from the Panthers game with a victory, and then the Panthers get a victory in Week 17 from the Saints because the Saints know they're out of bye week contention, we could jump from #7 to #6 overall. If the Steelers know by Week 17 that they're out of AFC North division champion contention with the Ravens (who swept them in head to head) then they could start pulling their starters against the Browns and hand the Browns an unexpected victory. If that and the above Bucs/Panthers/Saints scenario all play out...then Miami could be picking #5.

But I wouldn't count on that. Essentially, we're already picking #8 overall because the Bucs and Panthers play one another next week and whichever one wins will get scooted behind us in the pecking order. I expect to be picking #7 overall once the Redskins find a way to win one more game, probably against the hapless Vikings. And I expect St. Louis to be picking #2 after the hapless Vikings find a win against the even-more-hapless Caleb Hanie/Nate Enderle/Josh McCown Bears.

The Bills could leap ahead of us on a Strength of Schedule tie, which would induce division tiebreakers, and since we swept them they'd get ahead of us.

But for that to happen, some combination of four of the following would need to happen:

Cardinals beat Bengals
Ravens beat Bengals
Browns beat Ravens
Browns beat Steelers
Texans beat Colts
Jaguars beat Titans
Texans beat Titans (double points)

The "(double points)" means that if the Titans beat the Texans in Week 17, then the Bills would need five of the other six outcomes to happen in their favor...in order to end up with a tiebreak over us.

And I just don't see that happening.

And even if Cleveland is picking ahead of us I don't see that big a deal. They could go after a QB in free agency or by trade. Mike Holmgren has to be feeling the pressure to win pretty soon. He's been there a couple of years and the team just seems to get worse. Colt McCoy was purely his call in the 3rd round and that's not panning out. Maybe he doesn't feel like he has the time for a young guy, especially a non-Luck young guy.

And let's say he doesn't take a veteran...I think he will end up taking Robert Griffin over Matt Barkley. Matt Barkley and Colt McCoy would be fast friends on that team (they already are acquaintances and Barkley lists McCoy as one of the people he'll speak to as he decides whether to come out or not) and that's not a good thing, because I sense a rift developing between the McCoy Family (his dad gets too involved, see BCS Championship Game) and the Browns especially over this whole concussion fiasco. Even before that, Colt has made some curious statements to the press about how he's been handled by the Browns since he's been there. Whoever they take in the 1st round isn't going to understudy Colt McCoy, IMO. He's going to understudy Seneca Wallace. And do you think Matt Barkley is more likely to gain valuable insight from understudying Seneca Wallace, or Robert Griffin III? If they have RG3 sitting behind Seneca then they don't have to change offenses according to who is going to play. They can feel free to get RG3 live reps at his own pace to get his feet wet, and they don't have to run anything special or unpredictable. He'll be learning the offense the way Seneca Wallace runs it, and that offense fits RG3 pretty well. Lots of screens, lots of short stuff, some quarterback movement, and then deep ball. I realize that the last QB that people saw Holmgren being successful with was Matt Hasselbeck, and that looks a little Matt Barkley-ish. But in Green Bay, where Holmgren won a championship, it was Brett Favre...and that's DEFINITELY more Robert Griffin-ish. That's what keeps drawing Holmgren to Seneca Wallace, and that's why he drafted McCoy who has wheels and ran a lot of spread-option at Texas.

Listen I like Matt Barkley and I know Slimm likes Matt Barkley and I know hoops you like him as well. But I don't think this pool of talking opinions is indicative of what you generally find out there about him. Just in the Universal Draft trio by itself, I like him, Simon hates him, and Richard is mixed but thinks he's probably worth a 1st rounder (but more toward the middle or bottom). THAT in my opinion is more indicative of what you find in the league as far as opinion on Barkley.

And this draft process is not made for a Matt Barkley. He's a guy that goes out and wins you football games, takes control of a huddle, leads players, operates an offense and hits you with superb accuracy and fundamentals. He's not going to raise any eyebrows when he gets off the bus. He's not going thoroughly impress you and set your tongue wagging about how incredibly thoughtful and smart he was in his interview. He's not going to leave smoke trails on the ball when he throws at his Pro Day (seriously doubt he throws at the Combine). He's not going to cause any scouts or decision makers to splutter their coffee when they see their stopwatch at the Combine. What he does best, he does during the games, and by the time he gets drafted he'll have not had an opportunity to show that in about 5 months. That's almost half a damn year.

I'm not saying he's falling out of the 1st round or to the bottom of it or anything. I'm just saying that by the time we get to Draft day I'll be surprised if a lot of teams are creaming all over themselves trying to package up a heavy amount of picks to move up and get the guy that hasn't given you anything new to be super impressed with in half a year.


I pointed all that out about Colt McCoy's dad right after Bama knocked him out of the national championship game. I've listened to Texas BOT's talk about what went on with Mack Brown and Colt's dad then, and they didn't paint a pretty picture. Who would've ever thought Colt's dad would be more of a headache than Cecil Newton? So far anyway...

One of the main issues I see with Griffin is the lack of mesh, shallow crossing routes, etc. that he'll have to make in the NFL against tight man coverage. They don't exist in Briles offense. The insane spacing Briles uses with his receivers don't allow for those type of routes. He's running the 4-verticals concept and tagging receiver routes by stressing the seams (safeties) with the vertical stretch.

Griffin checks the box to see how many defenders are in it, and checks to the bubble or smoke screen. I don't see the throws into tight coverage on stick routes in the middle of the field.

His footwork is awkward because of all this. He has a "hop" when he sets up... it's an all arm throw with no footwork. He's never dropped back from under center a day in his life. He has no idea what it means to get depth on his drop from under center, and create seperation from line of scrimmage as quickly as possible. It's the same flaw that Mariucci was working with Gabbert on last year during his workout with him and Ponder. Ponder knew how to do it, he was experienced with it.

Griffin has trouble seeing over the line now playing from the Gun... how's he going to see over it when he isn't able get the proper depth on his drop from under center? He's not. He's going to bail from the pocket early just like Gabbert.

RG3 needs some work in my opinion.

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 02:14 AM
I pointed all that out about Colt McCoy's dad right after Bama knocked him out of the national championship game. I've listened to Texas BOT's talk about what went on with Mack Brown and Colt's dad then, and they didn't paint a pretty picture. Who would've ever thought Colt's dad would be more of a headache than Cecil Newton? So far anyway...

One of the main issues I see with Griffin is the lack of mesh, shallow crossing routes, etc. that he'll have to make in the NFL against tight man coverage. They don't exist in Briles offense. The insane spacing Briles uses with his receivers don't allow for those type of routes. He's running the 4-verticals concept and tagging receiver routes by stressing the seams (safeties) with the vertical stretch.

Griffin checks the box to see how many defenders are in it, and checks to the bubble or smoke screen. I don't see the throws into tight coverage on stick routes in the middle of the field.

His footwork is awkward because of all this. He has a "hop" when he sets up... it's an all arm throw with no footwork. He's never dropped back from under center a day in his life. He has no idea what it means to get depth on his drop from under center, and create seperation from line of scrimmage as quickly as possible. It's the same flaw that Mariucci was working with Gabbert on last year during his workout with him and Ponder. Ponder knew how to do it, he was experienced with it.

Griffin has trouble seeing over the line now playing from the Gun... how's he going to see over it when he isn't able get the proper depth on his drop from under center? He's not. He's going to bail from the pocket early just like Gabbert.

RG3 needs some work in my opinion.

I'm 100% agreeing with you on Robert Griffin. He's not my guy. I'm just saying, I wouldn't be surprised if he IS Mike Holmgren's guy. There are a lot of NFL scouts and decision-makers buzzing about him right now. Some are trying to say he could even challenge Andrew Luck for #1 status. But most are telling guys like Tony Pauline that he's a top 10 pick at the worst.

TedSlimmJr
12-20-2011, 02:19 AM
Matt Barkley can overcome any slight deficiencies he has. He's accurate with exceptional ball placement. His arm strength is fine. He gets the ball out where it's supposed to go when it has to be out... particularly in the 3 step passing game, where the ball has to be out the second his back foot hits. In the 5 and 7 step passing game where he's allowed to hitch and gather while going through his progressions, the ball velocity and placement is perfect from opposite hash to sideline.

He's a better prospect than Andy Dalton, who has a weak arm. Dalton was a guy who could only play in a WCO, and couldn't make the required throws in the NFL. All he did was whiff the entire week of the Senior Bowl.

Barkley isn't a physical beast by any stretch, but he'll make a fine quarterback for whoever drafts him. He understands how to play the position.

TedSlimmJr
12-20-2011, 02:24 AM
I'm 100% agreeing with you on Robert Griffin. He's not my guy. I'm just saying, I wouldn't be surprised if he IS Mike Holmgren's guy. There are a lot of NFL scouts and decision-makers buzzing about him right now. Some are trying to say he could even challenge Andrew Luck for #1 status. But most are telling guys like Tony Pauline that he's a top 10 pick at the worst.


Don't doubt it at all. Hell, if Gabbert can go #11, RG3 can go #1. He's outproduced Gabbert virtually 2 to 1 against the same Big-12 defenses that inflate every other Big-12 QB's stats.

datruth55
12-20-2011, 10:44 AM
I pointed all that out about Colt McCoy's dad right after Bama knocked him out of the national championship game. I've listened to Texas BOT's talk about what went on with Mack Brown and Colt's dad then, and they didn't paint a pretty picture. Who would've ever thought Colt's dad would be more of a headache than Cecil Newton? So far anyway...

One of the main issues I see with Griffin is the lack of mesh, shallow crossing routes, etc. that he'll have to make in the NFL against tight man coverage. They don't exist in Briles offense. The insane spacing Briles uses with his receivers don't allow for those type of routes. He's running the 4-verticals concept and tagging receiver routes by stressing the seams (safeties) with the vertical stretch.

Griffin checks the box to see how many defenders are in it, and checks to the bubble or smoke screen. I don't see the throws into tight coverage on stick routes in the middle of the field.

His footwork is awkward because of all this. He has a "hop" when he sets up... it's an all arm throw with no footwork. He's never dropped back from under center a day in his life. He has no idea what it means to get depth on his drop from under center, and create seperation from line of scrimmage as quickly as possible. It's the same flaw that Mariucci was working with Gabbert on last year during his workout with him and Ponder. Ponder knew how to do it, he was experienced with it.

Griffin has trouble seeing over the line now playing from the Gun... how's he going to see over it when he isn't able get the proper depth on his drop from under center? He's not. He's going to bail from the pocket early just like Gabbert.

RG3 needs some work in my opinion.
You took the words right out of my mouth. I have seen everything on Griffin that you just wrote but I didn't write it here because I didn't feel like arguing with all the Griffin bandwagon people. I mentioned that I thought he bailed from a clean pocket on a video and nearly got stoned for it before ck and hoops backed me up.

Anyway, I'm sure that if Griffin declares and the GMs start to delve into his game tape they'll see the same things and he'll be all over the board. Some GMs will love him some won't but it only takes one. I get the feeling though that Griffin and Landry Jones will be back for their senior seasons...Barkley, I feel, is leaning towards coming out.

finsfanjay13
12-20-2011, 10:49 AM
From the beginning of RG3's hype this year I said I didn't want him over Luck (obviously) or Barkley. That feeling has yet to change. I still want Kendall Wright, though. :)

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 10:55 AM
I pointed all that out about Colt McCoy's dad right after Bama knocked him out of the national championship game. I've listened to Texas BOT's talk about what went on with Mack Brown and Colt's dad then, and they didn't paint a pretty picture. Who would've ever thought Colt's dad would be more of a headache than Cecil Newton? So far anyway...

One of the main issues I see with Griffin is the lack of mesh, shallow crossing routes, etc. that he'll have to make in the NFL against tight man coverage. They don't exist in Briles offense. The insane spacing Briles uses with his receivers don't allow for those type of routes. He's running the 4-verticals concept and tagging receiver routes by stressing the seams (safeties) with the vertical stretch.

Griffin checks the box to see how many defenders are in it, and checks to the bubble or smoke screen. I don't see the throws into tight coverage on stick routes in the middle of the field.

His footwork is awkward because of all this. He has a "hop" when he sets up... it's an all arm throw with no footwork. He's never dropped back from under center a day in his life. He has no idea what it means to get depth on his drop from under center, and create seperation from line of scrimmage as quickly as possible. It's the same flaw that Mariucci was working with Gabbert on last year during his workout with him and Ponder. Ponder knew how to do it, he was experienced with it.

Griffin has trouble seeing over the line now playing from the Gun... how's he going to see over it when he isn't able get the proper depth on his drop from under center? He's not. He's going to bail from the pocket early just like Gabbert.

RG3 needs some work in my opinion.

yep...and that scares me...griffen is gonna want to bail laterally just like gabbert and with that body i just don't think he'll hold up to contact

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 11:03 AM
I'm 100% agreeing with you on Robert Griffin. He's not my guy. I'm just saying, I wouldn't be surprised if he IS Mike Holmgren's guy. There are a lot of NFL scouts and decision-makers buzzing about him right now. Some are trying to say he could even challenge Andrew Luck for #1 status. But most are telling guys like Tony Pauline that he's a top 10 pick at the worst.

thats just crazy to me...i mean i could see a physical specimen like cam newton giving scouts some pause maybe to luck being the #1 pick if they were head to head as prospects...but not rg3

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 12:09 PM
thats just crazy to me...i mean i could see a physical specimen like cam newton giving scouts some pause maybe to luck being the #1 pick if they were head to head as prospects...but not rg3

There's some cognitive dissonance going on here. A lot of NFL decision makers hated Cam Newton because of the personality, legal histor, etc...but now they see him absolutely tearing up the league and already looking like a top 10 quarterback even as a rookie. Robert Griffin is the version of Cam Newton that doesn't have those personality issues, so getting behind him would be sort of an opportunity to show that you're not behind the times and don't have an archaic way of thinking about QB prospects, you just appreciate the intangibles that an RG3 brings to the table that Cam Newton supposedly did not.

ChrisHanson
12-20-2011, 12:14 PM
There's some cognitive dissonance going on here. A lot of NFL decision makers hated Cam Newton because of the personality, legal histor, etc...but now they see him absolutely tearing up the league and already looking like a top 10 quarterback even as a rookie. Robert Griffin is the version of Cam Newton that doesn't have those personality issues, so getting behind him would be sort of an opportunity to show that you're not behind the times and don't have an archaic way of thinking about QB prospects, you just appreciate the intangibles that an RG3 brings to the table that Cam Newton supposedly did not.

Great post! I'd also like to add that IMO RGIII is smarter than Luck. In fact, I think he's the better athlete too. He's not, at this time, the better QB, but I see no reason whatsoever why he couldn't one day be equal or better than Luck. Good coaching and exerience would be the two things RGIII needs to get there. Again, IMO.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 12:18 PM
There's some cognitive dissonance going on here. A lot of NFL decision makers hated Cam Newton because of the personality, legal histor, etc...but now they see him absolutely tearing up the league and already looking like a top 10 quarterback even as a rookie. Robert Griffin is the version of Cam Newton that doesn't have those personality issues, so getting behind him would be sort of an opportunity to show that you're not behind the times and don't have an archaic way of thinking about QB prospects, you just appreciate the intangibles that an RG3 brings to the table that Cam Newton supposedly did not.

absolutely...but there's a clear difference physical tools wise in newtons favor...head to head...ones got a body that can handle contact at the position at the nfl level the other doesn't despite both being duel threats...among other things

people are just looking for the next cam newton and rg3 isn't that level...he's not a once a every 10 years or so physical freak who can redefine the game with his legs and his arm...newton was

ChrisHanson
12-20-2011, 12:34 PM
absolutely...but there's a clear difference physical tools wise in newtons favor...head to head...ones got a body that can handle contact at the position at the nfl level the other doesn't despite both being duel threats...among other things

people are just looking for the next cam newton and rg3 isn't that level...he's not a once a every 10 years or so physical freak who can redefine the game with his legs and his arm...newton was

After 13 games you're proclaiming Newton a "redefiner of the game"? You realize that A LOT of QB's have a few years where they look great only to eventually fade away, right? I'm not saying that Newton will be one of those QB's, but making him some sort of legend after only 13 games is asinine. He's completing less than 60% of his passes, has one more passing TD than he does INT's and a QBR of 82. Fora rookie on that Panthers team he's playing great. Assuming that he's going to the HoF before his first season is over is crazy. Defenses will figure him out and if he can't adapt or change he will fade away.

hooshoops
12-20-2011, 12:53 PM
After 13 games you're proclaiming Newton a "redefiner of the game"? You realize that A LOT of QB's have a few years where they look great only to eventually fade away, right? I'm not saying that Newton will be one of those QB's, but making him some sort of legend after only 13 games is asinine. He's completing less than 60% of his passes, has one more passing TD than he does INT's and a QBR of 82. Fora rookie on that Panthers team he's playing great. Assuming that he's going to the HoF before his first season is over is crazy. Defenses will figure him out and if he can't adapt or change he will fade away.

i said when newton was a prospect that he has the kind of duel threat abilities with his legs and his arm that could redefine the game...and so far i'd say that takes been pretty damn money...this isn't me coming on here and talkin jibberish like you after i got to see the kid for 13 weeks this was my take when he was a prospect...

and you guys with the ints...look up peyton mannings rookie int #'s...cam newton has over 30 tds that he's accounted for himself this season...as a rookie with no damn offseason and minicamps to get ready and a defense that blows worse than your takes...this kids legit

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 12:59 PM
Great post! I'd also like to add that IMO RGIII is smarter than Luck. In fact, I think he's the better athlete too. He's not, at this time, the better QB, but I see no reason whatsoever why he couldn't one day be equal or better than Luck. Good coaching and exerience would be the two things RGIII needs to get there. Again, IMO.

I also see no reason whatsoever why we should assume that he will one day be equal or better than Luck.

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 01:00 PM
absolutely...but there's a clear difference physical tools wise in newtons favor...head to head...ones got a body that can handle contact at the position at the nfl level the other doesn't despite both being duel threats...among other things

people are just looking for the next cam newton and rg3 isn't that level...he's not a once a every 10 years or so physical freak who can redefine the game with his legs and his arm...newton was

Preaching to the choir. Size/playing style/vision has been the biggest issue for me with Griffin since the start...aside from the rocky mechanics.

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 01:06 PM
After 13 games you're proclaiming Newton a "redefiner of the game"? You realize that A LOT of QB's have a few years where they look great only to eventually fade away, right? I'm not saying that Newton will be one of those QB's, but making him some sort of legend after only 13 games is asinine. He's completing less than 60% of his passes, has one more passing TD than he does INT's and a QBR of 82. Fora rookie on that Panthers team he's playing great. Assuming that he's going to the HoF before his first season is over is crazy. Defenses will figure him out and if he can't adapt or change he will fade away.

Defenses will start to get a grip on how to defend him better but I don't think they will ever really "figure him out". There's just too many natural tools there to figure out. As a runner, he can hit you with speed, elusiveness, or power. As a thrower, he can hit any throw on any part of the field. It's too much.

I'm not buying this downplaying of the rookie year he's having. The guy has 30 freaking touchdowns in his rookie year. And you know what? He's not going to get credit for that Annexation of Puerto Rico touchdown this Sunday, but the execution of that play was really all on him, and you can't do that with just any quarterback. His experiences at Auburn, the control he has on the football with his big hands, his body control and agility, coordination, athletic concentration, all made that play happen.

nyashfan
12-20-2011, 01:10 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that the Colts have secured the #1 overall pick provided that they don't win their last two games. Indy plays Houston and Jacksonville which have 14 combined wins; the Vikings play Washington and Chicago which have 12 combined wins. But the assumption is that the Vikings lose out, meaning that Washington and Chicago will have at least 14 combined wins. The Rams play Pittsburgh and San Francisco so their SOS will only strengten.

An interesting side note is that the 1986 Colts started 0-13 and won their last 3. They missed out on the Suck For Testaverde sweepstakes to the 2-14 Bucs. I think they drafted Cornelius Bennett instead.

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 02:13 PM
The Colts could win these final two games. When a team finally gets a win after losing so much, they often win in spurts. Miami did. Kansas City did. When the Rams finally got a win, the piled on a second win two weeks later, and haven't won since.

This is the perfect opportunity for the Colts to stack a win on top of a win. They face the Texans on Thursday night, only two nights from now. This is an extreme short week and the Texans have to travel for the game. The Texans were on a 7 game win streak, clinched the division title, and then let up off the gas against the Panthers. It's going to be hard to come back and play hard traveling on a short week coming off that loss and knowing you've got the division title in the bag. They'll be playing hard for the bye week still, but they have zero time to correct whatever problems they had that resulted in the Panthers loss. The Colts on the other hand are still riding the high from their first win and have way more confidence than they did previously, especially in Dan Orlovsky, who is playing well for them.

And the bottom line is, you're going up against a rookie, and his name is not Cam Newton. Rookies can be baited into bad decisions. I love Yates, but he had two of those bad decisions the other day. He could make more. Or worse, he could use those bad mistakes as an excuse to go into a conservative shell a little bit and not push the ball up the field as much. Wade Phillips is still recovering from surgery and that defense got demolished by the Panthers without Phillips guiding them.

And let me tell you if the Colts beat the Texans this Thursday, they're not losing to the Jaguars in Week 17. Peyton Manning will make sure of that. And I bet half those Jaguars players wouldn't exactly mind screwing their division rivals out of Luck, either.

SMadison29
12-20-2011, 02:28 PM
1. 1-13 Indianapolis SOS .541 - QB Need
2. 2-12 Minnesota SOS .565 -
3. 2-12 St. Louis SOS .591
4. 4-10 Jacksonville SOS .502
5. 4-10 Cleveland SOS .530 - QB Need
6. 4-10 Tampa Bay SOS .543
7. 5-9 Washington SOS .466 - QB Need
8. 5-9 Carolina SOS .504
9. 5-9 Miami SOS .516
10. 5-9 Buffalo SOS .520
11. 6-8 Philadelphia SOS .498
12. 6-8 Kansas City SOS .511
13. 6-7 San Diego SOS .520
14. 7-7 Arizona SOS .468
15. 7-7 Tennessee SOS .468


Looks good to me so far....only 3 teams before us need a QB, therefore, Luck, Barkley and RGIII will be gone. Either we move up to take RGIII (or Barkley - no way Colts give up on Luck), go for Peyton Manning, or take the fourth best/rated QB.

So who is that QB?


I'm not too worried about the Browns, I think Holmgren will stick with Colt & surround him with weapons but we need to get back ahead of the Redskins.

ChrisHanson
12-20-2011, 02:33 PM
I also see no reason whatsoever why we should assume that he will one day be equal or better than Luck.

That wasn't an assumption. An assumption is based off of faith or factless thought. I'm not assuming that he will be Luck's equal. I'm making a statement that he could be. Big difference.

brains-- check
athletic--- check
accurate--- check
arm--- check
personality--- check
character--- check

Again, the only thing he doesn't have that Luck has is the experience or games played...yet. Thus he's still pretty raw. However, when you factor in all the things I wrote above I see no reason as to why he couldn't be as good as Luck. Again, I'm not assuming that he will be.

ChrisHanson
12-20-2011, 02:40 PM
i said when newton was a prospect that he has the kind of duel threat abilities with his legs and his arm that could redefine the game...and so far i'd say that takes been pretty damn money...this isn't me coming on here and talkin jibberish like you after i got to see the kid for 13 weeks this was my take when he was a prospect...

and you guys with the ints...look up peyton mannings rookie int #'s...cam newton has over 30 tds that he's accounted for himself this season...as a rookie with no damn offseason and minicamps to get ready and a defense that blows worse than your takes...this kids legit

So far? Hell, one time I made a hole in one...I haven't since. Again, I too see greatness in Cam, but do I think he's redefined anything? Nope. He's done nothing compared to Tarkenton, Young, Cunningham, McNabb, Rogers, or any of the other scrambling QB's that have ever played. You sound like a Bills fan after the first 5 games of this season. :chuckle:

ckparrothead
12-20-2011, 02:46 PM
That wasn't an assumption. An assumption is based off of faith or factless thought. I'm not assuming that he will be Luck's equal. I'm making a statement that he could be. Big difference.

brains-- check
athletic--- check
accurate--- check
arm--- check
personality--- check
character--- check

Again, the only thing he doesn't have that Luck has is the experience or games played...yet. Thus he's still pretty raw. However, when you factor in all the things I wrote above I see no reason as to why he couldn't be as good as Luck. Again, I'm not assuming that he will be.

If that's the only thing you think he has that Luck doesn't have, then we're just going to disagree. You have every right to your opinion. You also have every right to be wrong.

ChrisHanson
12-20-2011, 02:47 PM
Defenses will start to get a grip on how to defend him better but I don't think they will ever really "figure him out". There's just too many natural tools there to figure out. As a runner, he can hit you with speed, elusiveness, or power. As a thrower, he can hit any throw on any part of the field. It's too much.

I'm not buying this downplaying of the rookie year he's having. The guy has 30 freaking touchdowns in his rookie year. And you know what? He's not going to get credit for that Annexation of Puerto Rico touchdown this Sunday, but the execution of that play was really all on him, and you can't do that with just any quarterback. His experiences at Auburn, the control he has on the football with his big hands, his body control and agility, coordination, athletic concentration, all made that play happen.


Downplaying? Are you reading my posts? I ask because you at first said I was making assumptions, when I clearly was not, and now you're saying that I downplayed Cam's season? No. I called his play thus far "great". Is there a better adjective you'd rather have me used?

My point is that I will withhold any "Cam has redefined the game" talk until he's "redefined" something and done so for more than 13 games.

ChrisHanson
12-20-2011, 02:51 PM
If that's the only thing you think he has that Luck doesn't have, then we're just going to disagree. You have every right to your opinion. You also have every right to be wrong.

Let me guess...you don't have that same right? Although, I love the way you too provide so much reasoning for your opinion. Wait...you realize you're just giving an opinion too, right?

Locke
12-20-2011, 03:45 PM
If that's the only thing you think he has that Luck doesn't have, then we're just going to disagree. You have every right to your opinion. You also have every right to be wrong.

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2011/12/imagesqtbnANd9GcQCYDbJ5d9mfiefIOjCVNnH1n-1.jpg

ChrisHanson
12-20-2011, 04:37 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2011/12/imagesqtbnANd9GcQCYDbJ5d9mfiefIOjCVNnH1n-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2011/12/cnnfmemegeneratorhahadamnhestillmadd7641-1.jpg

Kistner10
12-20-2011, 06:21 PM
I don't see RGIII passing Luck especially if Indy holds onto the number 1 pick. After years of having the classic drop back passer in Manning, I think they'll lean that way after all the success it has brought them.

I do think RGIII has the chance to pass Barkley though. With the success Newton/Vick/Tebow have had these last 2 years, I think teams might shift their way of thinking and target duel threat QB's. RGIII should also look better in combine/individual workout showings than Barkley with his speed and arm strength.

I think Miami will still have to trade up to guarantee Barkley, but it shouldn't cost too much more than what JAC gave up for Gabbert last year. We are still sitting in a good position imo.

TedSlimmJr
12-20-2011, 06:39 PM
That wasn't an assumption. An assumption is based off of faith or factless thought. I'm not assuming that he will be Luck's equal. I'm making a statement that he could be. Big difference.

brains-- check
athletic--- check
accurate--- check
arm--- check
personality--- check
character--- check

Again, the only thing he doesn't have that Luck has is the experience or games played...yet. Thus he's still pretty raw. However, when you factor in all the things I wrote above I see no reason as to why he couldn't be as good as Luck. Again, I'm not assuming that he will be.


RG3 started as a true freshman at Baylor. He's started 2 more games than Luck has.... 39 to 37.

DudeleBroski
12-20-2011, 06:49 PM
Does anyone remember what the jets gave Cleveland when they traded up for dirty?

datruth55
12-20-2011, 10:06 PM
In exchange for the fifth pick, the Jets gave up the 17th pick, their second-round selection and three players: defensive end Kenyon Coleman, safety Abram Elam and quarterback Brett Ratliff.
Quite a bit but they were moving up from 17th.

Kistner10
12-21-2011, 12:31 AM
Quite a bit but they were moving up from 17th.

Actually they didn't give up very much at all. Mangini was the coach there so he let them move up for a discout. They traded the 17th and 52nd pick plus QB Brett Ratliff, DE Kenyon Coleman, and S Abraham Elam.

hooshoops
12-21-2011, 12:46 AM
Actually they didn't give up very much at all. Mangini was the coach there so he let them move up for a discout. They traded the 17th and 52nd pick plus QB Brett Ratliff, DE Kenyon Coleman, and S Abraham Elam.

yeah that was peanuts...but the jets also picked up a top 5 pick qb contract in the old cba...which meant big money...the new cba will make the price of moving up even higher given the limited financial risk for that high a pick...teams are gonna ask for a bounty to move out

Kistner10
12-21-2011, 01:17 AM
yeah that was peanuts...but the jets also picked up a top 5 pick qb contract in the old cba...which meant big money...the new cba will make the price of moving up even higher given the limited financial risk for that high a pick...teams are gonna ask for a bounty to move out

I think it depends on how far we want to trade up. If we're trading from 7 to 4 I don't think it'll cost too much. A lot of teams in front of us aren't going to be drafting QB's so they might be willing to drop a couple of spots for a couple extra draft picks. It's all going to matter on how the draft order ends up.

hooshoops
12-21-2011, 01:24 AM
I think it depends on how far we want to trade up. If we're trading from 7 to 4 I don't think it'll cost too much. A lot of teams in front of us aren't going to be drafting QB's so they might be willing to drop a couple of spots for a couple extra draft picks. It's all going to matter on how the draft order ends up.

you want to assure yourself matt barkley...you better trade up to #2 and not try and get cute...cause if you leave yourself space to be trumped you are playing with fire...not a chance i'd take

to move from #7 which is where i think its very likely we end up to #2 say with minnesota should it shake out that way you probably could get it done for your first this and next year...you aren't sniffing the top pick with andrew luck the carrot for that though...i will guarantee you that...and you better hope minnesota doesn't love a claiborne or a blackmon so much they don't want to play ball...

given our situation i'm not sitting at #7 and hoping a barkley comes to me...i'm makin calls to get to where i need to...or at least i'm going all in an attempt to get up there...i don't give a **** if barkley doesn't have the bazooka arm or ideal measurables you look for in the top 5...

Kistner10
12-21-2011, 01:35 AM
you want to assure yourself matt barkley...you better trade up to #2 and not try and get cute...cause if you leave yourself space to be trumped you are playing with fire...not a chance i'd take

to move from #7 which is where i think its very likely we end up to #2 say with minnesota should it shake out that way you probably could get it done for your first this and next year...you aren't sniffing the top pick with andrew luck the carrot for that though...i will guarantee you that...and you better hope minnesota doesn't love a claiborne or a blackmon so much they don't want to play ball...

given our situation i'm not sitting at #7 and hoping a barkley comes to me...i'm makin calls to get to where i need to...or at least i'm going all in an attempt to get up there...i don't give a **** if barkley doesn't have the bazooka arm or ideal measurables you look for in the top 5...

I agree with you. I want to trade up and draft Barkley. We just have no idea what the cost is going to be until the draft order is finalized and see what some teams do in free agency. Who knows maybe CLE and WAS decide they want to go the veteran route.

hooshoops
12-21-2011, 01:48 AM
I agree with you. I want to trade up and draft Barkley. We just have no idea what the cost is going to be until the draft order is finalized and see what some teams do in free agency. Who knows maybe CLE and WAS decide they want to go the veteran route.

yeah i guess thats true...

3rdandinches
12-21-2011, 09:03 AM
you want to assure yourself matt barkley...you better trade up to #2 and not try and get cute...cause if you leave yourself space to be trumped you are playing with fire...not a chance i'd take

to move from #7 which is where i think its very likely we end up to #2 say with minnesota should it shake out that way you probably could get it done for your first this and next year...you aren't sniffing the top pick with andrew luck the carrot for that though...i will guarantee you that...and you better hope minnesota doesn't love a claiborne or a blackmon so much they don't want to play ball...

given our situation i'm not sitting at #7 and hoping a barkley comes to me...i'm makin calls to get to where i need to...or at least i'm going all in an attempt to get up there...i don't give a **** if barkley doesn't have the bazooka arm or ideal measurables you look for in the top 5...

Doesn't that mean the 3rd pick is where M.Barkley is available so it changes nothing, except maybe a little less compensation. Unless you think St.Louis will take a QB then your no worse off. Draft day is going to be real interesting this year!

datruth55
12-21-2011, 10:29 AM
I agree with you. I want to trade up and draft Barkley. We just have no idea what the cost is going to be until the draft order is finalized and see what some teams do in free agency. Who knows maybe CLE and WAS decide they want to go the veteran route.
Matt Flynn is a free agent next year and he's been in the WCO for 3 years now I think. He would be a fit for either team if they wanted to go that route.

hooshoops
12-21-2011, 11:11 AM
Doesn't that mean the 3rd pick is where M.Barkley is available so it changes nothing, except maybe a little less compensation. Unless you think St.Louis will take a QB then your no worse off. Draft day is going to be real interesting this year!

the only way i see st louis maybe trading out is if they get the top pick and even if they do i'd bet money they only want to go so far as to guarantee themselves blackmon or claiborne...

datruth55
12-23-2011, 12:38 AM
Colts beating the Texans helps us more than you know. Keeps us ahead of Buffalo. Need to root for Cincy and Tennessee to win to ensure we stay ahead of Buffalo in the draft.

hooshoops
12-23-2011, 12:39 AM
Colts beating the Texans helps us more than you know. Keeps us ahead of Buffalo. Need to root for Cincy and Tennessee to win to ensure we stay ahead of Buffalo in the draft.

who do cincy and tennessee play???

datruth55
12-23-2011, 12:44 AM
who do cincy and tennessee play???

Arizona plays Cincy at home and Tennessee plays Jacksonville at home.

hooshoops
12-23-2011, 12:46 AM
Arizona plays Cincy at home and Tennessee plays Jacksonville at home.

who who...we can get both those...nice

Kistner10
12-23-2011, 01:05 AM
Jacksonville winning should help us out as well right?? That would get them up to 5 wins. I don't know what their SOS would be though.

datruth55
12-23-2011, 01:08 AM
Jacksonville winning should help us out as well right?? That would get them up to 5 wins. I don't know what their SOS would be though.

Jacksonville's SOS is .500, really low. They'd have to win the last two for us to move in front of them but that would mean Indy gets the first pick. At this point we need Jacksonville to lose out.

finomenal
12-23-2011, 01:09 AM
the only way i see st louis maybe trading out is if they get the top pick and even if they do i'd bet money they only want to go so far as to guarantee themselves blackmon or claiborne...

We can offer Long or Vontae along with the draft picks. Other teams who would trade up don't have players close to their talent except Cleveland. I'd hate to do it, but because of the new CBA and the type of prospect Luck is, the Rams will ask for plenty to move out. I want that guy at all costs.

hooshoops
12-23-2011, 01:13 AM
We can offer Long or Vontae along with the draft picks. Other teams that would trade up don't have the caliber at those positions except Cleveland. I'd hate to do it, but because of the new CBA and the type of prospect Luck is, the Rams will ask for plenty to move out. I want that guy at all costs.

i don't think the rams would be on jake long...they'd love vontae though...minnesota would be the ones on jake long and vontae both

finomenal
12-23-2011, 01:25 AM
i don't think the rams would be on jake long...they'd love vontae though...minnesota would be the ones on jake long and vontae both

Why don't you think they'd like Long? They could use an upgrade on the OL.

hooshoops
12-23-2011, 01:30 AM
Why don't you think they'd like Long? They could use an upgrade on the OL.

cause they got a left tackle they drafted with the first pick of the 2nd round rodger saffold 2 years ago they like very much...and the year prior they drafted right tackle jason smith with the like #2 overall pick...i seriously doubt they want to invest another whatever jake has left on his contract in a tackle...

datruth55
12-24-2011, 05:44 PM
Well we moved up one spot because Washington choked against Minnesota. Cleveland is 5th though and they have two 1st round picks and are sitting pretty to move up and take Luck should Indy beat Jacksonville in the last game and they lose to the 49ers.

hooshoops
12-24-2011, 05:55 PM
damn...i thought we moved up 2 spots cause carolina won also...i guess buffalo was behind us before today...damn

that top pick if indy wins against jax is the rams...still a good trade opportunity for us

datruth55
12-24-2011, 06:03 PM
damn...i thought we moved up 2 spots cause carolina won also...i guess buffalo was behind us before today...damn

that top pick if indy wins against jax is the rams...still a good trade opportunity for us
Yeah I think most were expecting Washington to win which would have had us move up 2 spots to #7. Buffalo was already behind us.

And yes the loss today was on Moore. Way too inaccurate today...like most days. He's nothing more than a caretaker. We're still in good shape so we'll see what happens. Best we can hope for is a Washington (at Philly) and Cleveland (home against Pitt) win and we'd move up 2 spots but it's highly unlikely and I really want to knock the Jets out of the playoffs so I'm torn.

J. David Wannyheimer
12-24-2011, 06:08 PM
Jacksonville is playing dreadful ball right now. Blaine Gabbert is so bad I almost feel sorry for the guy. I think the Colts have to be the favorites to win that game unless they start Painter.

datruth55
12-24-2011, 06:13 PM
Jacksonville is playing dreadful ball right now. Blaine Gabbert is so bad I almost feel sorry for the guy. I think the Colts have to be the favorites to win that game unless they start Painter.
Or lay down to secure the #1 pick. If they lose that game you would have to think they're doing it on purpose.

J. David Wannyheimer
12-24-2011, 06:15 PM
Or lay down to secure the #1 pick. If they lose that game you would have to think they're doing it on purpose. Well, I think there's a good chance that Jacksonville might take some steps to try to lose that game, I honestly do. I don't think the Colts can get away with starting Painter and I'm willing to bet that Reggie Wayne, Jeff Saturday, etc. will want to win it for Peyton. Reggie in particular must think he's going to be done in Indy if Peyton is released.

datruth55
12-24-2011, 06:17 PM
Well, I think there's a good chance that Jacksonville might take some steps to try to lose that game, I honestly do. I don't think the Colts can get away with starting Painter and I'm willing to bet that Reggie Wayne, Jeff Saturday, etc. will want to win it for Peyton. Reggie in particular must think he's going to be done in Indy if Peyton is released.
I don't think Jacksonville will be trying to lose the game, I know their interim coach wants a permanent job so they're going to be trying to win the game I just don't think they have anything on offense, outside of MJD, to win.

hooshoops
12-24-2011, 06:18 PM
its gonna be hard for the colts to lose with their wrs against the jax corners...i mean that should be a field day