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hooshoops
01-23-2012, 11:08 AM
talk about it here...anybody get any height weight arm length etc results please post them...dvr she's a set

rrrrphin
01-23-2012, 11:44 AM
http://walterfootball.com/seniorbowl2012.php

He's promising live updates, but i haven't seen anything yet

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 11:48 AM
it will be interesting to see just how tall courtney upshaw comes in at...if he's a legit 6 ft 2 i'm saying its by the skin of his teeth..we'll see

insom187
01-23-2012, 11:50 AM
Brandon Wheedon begins his push into the first round this week, that's the story I'm looking at. If he test well I can see the 49ers going after him. Alex Smith is not the answer and that team is ready to win right now they just need a guy who can make a few throws. He should be available at pick 29, he'll just need to put in some good performances this week, a solid pro day and an impressive combine (all are most likely going to go well)

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 12:00 PM
There's obviously still some prospects that I want to get a look at this week, but the overall talent level has had a big dent put in it by all the prospects that have pulled out due to injury or other reasons. It's turning out to be one of the least talented Senior Bowls there's ever been.

Glad I won't be attending this one.

datruth55
01-23-2012, 12:06 PM
Brandon Wheedon begins his push into the first round this week, that's the story I'm looking at. If he test well I can see the 49ers going after him. Alex Smith is not the answer and that team is ready to win right now they just need a guy who can make a few throws. He should be available at pick 29, he'll just need to put in some good performances this week, a solid pro day and an impressive combine (all are most likely going to go well)
You're forgetting they drafted Colin Kaepernick last year. They won't take Weeden in the first round. Really their WRs have been a disappointment. Crabtree has not lived up to expectations but he falls in line with most guys that held out as rookies and never really got on track...I don't know the exact percentage but I would say 80% of first round picks that hold out for more money never live up to the hype...our very own Ronnie Brown was one of them.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 12:08 PM
There's obviously still some prospects that I want to get a look at this week, but the overall talent level has had a big dent put in it by all the prospects that have pulled out due to injury or other reasons. It's turning out to be one of the least talented Senior Bowls there's ever been.

Glad I won't be attending this one.

who's pulled out???

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 12:18 PM
who's pulled out???


Mark Barron, T.Y. Hilton, Ryan Tannehill, Devon Still, Brandon Mosley, Amini Silatolu, Mychal Kendricks, etc... all players that I'm particularly fond of, and some that I really needed to see in drills in a Senior Bowl setting.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 12:25 PM
Mark Barron, T.Y. Hilton, Ryan Tannehill, Devon Still, Brandon Mosley, Amini Silatolu, Mychal Kendricks, etc... all players that I'm particularly fond of, and some that I really needed to see in drills in a Senior Bowl setting.

would have been nice to see barrons hips in coverage one on one drills...see how much stiffness was there...

at least coples and upshaw will be there for us...

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 12:35 PM
I cannot wait to see what happens with the QB's.

I think Russell Wilson emerges and Cousins will impress.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 12:58 PM
damn...vick ballards 217 lbs...that better than i thought he would be

coples 6 ft 5 281 lbs...he looks it

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 01:02 PM
janoris jenkins 5 ft 9 and some change...thats gonna hurt

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 01:02 PM
Mark Barron, T.Y. Hilton, Ryan Tannehill, Devon Still, Brandon Mosley, Amini Silatolu, Mychal Kendricks, etc... all players that I'm particularly fond of, and some that I really needed to see in drills in a Senior Bowl setting.

And there are other guys that I haven't heard specifically pulled out, just curiously are not there or were not invited. It's disgusting.

I mean there are some guys there that I'll really love watching. In particular I think the QB class is going to be as good as I've seen it. Courtney Upshaw is there. Melvin Ingram is there. Quinton Coples is there.

But where the hell is Coby Fleener? Kendall Wright is out. As you say T.Y. Hilton is out. I'm not a huge fan but Nick Toon is out. Brandon Mosley is out. Devon Still is out. Josh Chapman obviously can't participate. Mark Barron not there.

---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------


I cannot wait to see what happens with the QB's.

I think Russell Wilson emerges and Cousins will impress.

Well you got half of that right. I'll let you guess which half.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 01:04 PM
definitely an underwhelming crop...just gonna have to make the best of it i guess...

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 01:08 PM
And there are other guys that I haven't heard specifically pulled out, just curiously are not there or were not invited. It's disgusting.

I mean there are some guys there that I'll really love watching. In particular I think the QB class is going to be as good as I've seen it. Courtney Upshaw is there. Melvin Ingram is there. Quinton Coples is there.

But where the hell is Coby Fleener? Kendall Wright is out. As you say T.Y. Hilton is out. I'm not a huge fan but Nick Toon is out. Brandon Mosley is out. Devon Still is out. Josh Chapman obviously can't participate. Mark Barron not there.

---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------



Well you got half of that right. I'll let you guess which half.



That's a fact. There's nothing Kirk Cousins can do at the Senior Bowl to "impress" me. I've seen enough of him.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 01:15 PM
upshaw just over 6 ft 1...gonna hurt him too

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 01:15 PM
Courtney Upshaw comes in 6014 (read: 6 feet, 1.5 inches) and 273 lbs.

I'm not bothered at all. For the player he is, that's a good size. Think how incredibly well he moves and accelerates at 270+ lbs of weight. That's a beast of a player. I have no issue drafting him at #8 or #9 but Jeff Ireland and his prototyping may disagree.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 01:17 PM
Some big winners so far include Mike Adams and George Iloka. Iloka came in 6035 (which will get him listed 6'4" on the program guides) and 222 lbs. HUGE. Shades of Kam Chancellor. And this is a guy that makes plays out there too, so teams will take note.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 01:21 PM
I think Kirk Cousins showing up at 6022 is a minor win for him. I thought there was a possibility he showed up under 6'2". But being only 209 lbs kind of re-emphasizes some size concerns I have for him, and as Slimm says, I've seen enough on tape to know: 1) He's not very likely to impress me in this setting, 2) Even if he does I'm not sure it matters.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 01:23 PM
Cam Johnson at 6036 and 267 lbs is a win. He has a linebacker build but a jumbo linebacker. There have been some complaints about a soft mid section but I think that you get him into an NFL program and that'll cure that quickly.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 01:23 PM
upshaw does move damn well for that 273 lbs...he carries that weight well...i still think the height is gonna hurt him though...and i definitely don't like using top 20 picks on a cbs to play the boundary who are 5 ft 9...thats a no go for me...all these jumbo wrs in the league 5 ft 9 is nickle cb size for me

i like tall boundary corners...

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 01:24 PM
Upshaw needs to shed about 10 pounds before the combine. Either way, he's a guaranteed stud.

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 01:25 PM
Cousins reminds me of another QB that people passed over that played in the same state. I know I know...just saying. I like the kid.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 01:27 PM
Cousins reminds me of another QB that people passed over that played in the same state. I know I know...just saying. I like the kid.

Brian Hoyer.

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 01:54 PM
Brian Hoyer.

LOL. Good one. That is funny.

Brian Hoyer could be a wanted man in FA this year though...Michael Lombardi likes him.

Back to Kirk Cousins...I LOVE his character. Been in a pro system. Has been through highs and lows. Ton of experience. He is a day three guy so do not get me wrong. However, I love both Big 10 QB's in Wilson and Cousins.

This will be a fun week to watch the QB's nonetheless.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 02:07 PM
Tony Bergstrom with those barely over 31" arms is getting kicked inside.

MiamiDolphin618
01-23-2012, 02:12 PM
Coples vs Upshaw at SOLB. Who you guys got?

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 02:15 PM
Right now IF we stay 3-4, I have come around to thinking Courtney Upshaw is the pick. I like Nick Perry, but Upshaw is better. Kendall Wright is an explosive threat I like...

Dwayne Allen is way too early, but what a threat for this team in the hash area.

beanh8er
01-23-2012, 02:19 PM
Coples is way too big to play LB in any scheme. 6'6 281?

MiamiDolphin618
01-23-2012, 02:20 PM
Right now IF we stay 3-4, I have come around to thinking Courtney Upshaw is the pick. I like Nick Perry, but Upshaw is better. Kendall Wright is an explosive threat I like...

Dwayne Allen is way too early, but what a threat for this team in the hash area.

I like Upshaw alot. I havent seen too much of Coples though that is why I asked. I really like Janoris Jenkins (not at 8-9), but his height measurement will certainly hurt his stock. Still, if he is there at Rd 2, I would run up the card.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 02:38 PM
Got the full breakdown of height, arms, etc.

Foles has a great 6050 and 244 lbs frame with huge 10.75 inch hands but his 33 inch arms are a little longer than ideal.

---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------


Coples vs Upshaw at SOLB. Who you guys got?

If we're talking a linebacker position I believe you have to go with Upshaw.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 02:40 PM
Coples is way too big to play LB in any scheme. 6'6 281?

If Mario Williams can do it so can he.

But not ideally.

He's not the guy you want having to chase an option from inside out. Not that he'll have to do that much at the next level but some of the run duties might approximate that.

On the other hand his frame and speed would be TERRIFIC in zone coverage. He could dominate passing lanes.

Austin Tatious
01-23-2012, 02:47 PM
Watching the NFC championship game and seeing the kid from Missouri, Aldon Smith, it reinforced my view of Upshaw at 9. Smith ended up going a bit higher than people thought last year (7th I believe). I think Upshaw may have a similar effect. Upshaw may not have the raw pass rush ability the Mizzou kid brings, but he is a more complete football player.

Also, look at the Giants, bringing pressure in waves. The Giants understand you need playmakers on both sides of the ball, something Miami is largely bereft of. Its time to solve it. The Giants have Osi Umenyiori and Tuck, and still bring in Kiwanuka. And then Pierre-Paul. Brilliant.

Upshaw would bring a playmaking element Miami needs. If we could figure out how to get Barron in here too, that would be amazing, although unlikely. I am hearing lower first for Barron. I need to see what other S possibilities are out there. You keep Soliai, get Upshaw and a safety in here, and this defense can get lethal in a hurry.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 02:54 PM
Coples vs Upshaw at SOLB. Who you guys got?

upshaw all the way...i think you can gain the edge too easy on coples if you ask him to stand up and flow down the los...i don't think thats the case with upshaw...he's got quick short area explosion and acceleration and he will run your *** down...but yeah coples would be murder in the passing lanes given that length...he's just a 43 de all the way for me though...with some kick inside package abilities

if i have a concern with upshaw its as a pass rusher...i'm just not sure i see high end edge rush abilities there...i see a lot of power and strength...but not top 10 pick pass rush tools

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 03:26 PM
I like Upshaw, but he isn't Aldon Smith. Aldon Smith was a different animal, as far as playing on the line of scrimmage as a pass rusher. Didn't really think Aldon should play OLB in a 3-4 but then again, I'm not sure he's really being asked to do that much in San Fran.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 03:27 PM
I like Upshaw, but he isn't Aldon Smith. Aldon Smith was a different animal, as far as playing on the line of scrimmage as a pass rusher. Didn't really think Aldon should play OLB in a 3-4 but then again, I'm not sure he's really being asked to do that much in San Fran.

agreed...

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 03:38 PM
Most of it comes down to lower body explosion. How these guys perform in the broad jump/vertical jump, etc. is what determines a potential elite pass rusher in the NFL from a potential JAG.

The game film is all on Upshaw's side. How well he tests in lower body explosion is going to give a more clear indication of his upside.

datruth55
01-23-2012, 04:06 PM
Weeden only has 9" hands...really small for a guy his size. Russell came in shorter than I thought but he has huge hands at 10".

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 04:34 PM
Actually Weeden's hands are 9.5 inches and yes Russell Wilson's hands are 10.0 inches. Half an inch difference not exactly earth shattering there.

Weeden is put together very well for a quarterback at 6034 and 219 lbs, 30.5 inch arms and 9.5 inch hands. His hands aren't small for a QB, they're normal sized. Could his hands be a little bigger? Sure. Does it matter on a guy that throws a 97 mph fast ball and puts smoke trails on the football? No.

Foles has a fantastic 6'5" and 244 lbs frame with hands nearly 11 inches but his 33 inch arms are a little longer than ideal for quick, compact, versatile and consistent mechanics.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 04:44 PM
weeden was only 219 lbs...he looks bigger than that to me...i was thinking 235 lbs...heh

SMadison29
01-23-2012, 05:08 PM
I think Russell Wilson emerges and Cousins will impress.

Wisconsin QB Russell Wilson measured 5-foot-10 5/8 and 203 pounds at Monday's Senior Bowl weigh-in.

He's not off to the best of starts.

SMadison29
01-23-2012, 05:12 PM
But where the hell is Coby Fleener? Kendall Wright is out. As you say T.Y. Hilton is out. I'm not a huge fan but Nick Toon is out. Brandon Mosley is out. Devon Still is out. Josh Chapman obviously can't participate. Mark Barron not there.


Fleener declined, so did teammate Delano Howell. Barron is hurt too.

Geforce
01-23-2012, 05:19 PM
* The Dolphins interviewed several prospects yesterday at the Senior Bowl, and I know of one: Houston WR Patrick Edwards, a speedy slot receiver who had 89 catches for 1,752 yards and 20 touchdowns last year. Hes only 5-9 and 175 pounds, but the Dolphins are still looking for more speed on offense. One of the players that should be at the top of their draft board, speedy Baylor WR Kendall Wright, dropped out of the Senior Bowl because of an ankle injury.
http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2012/01/23/miami-dolphins-notebook-updates-on-the-qb-and-coaching-search-from-the-senior-bowl/

http://www.phins-spotlight.com/2012/01/dolphins-interview-houston-wr-patrick.html

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 05:20 PM
good grief...stop talkin so damn much and show us some damn drills...

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 05:33 PM
i think tj grahams a pro...he's quick twitch and explosive...not seeing a whole lot from these north wrs and dbs in one on one drills...

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 05:45 PM
weeden was only 219 lbs...he looks bigger than that to me...i was thinking 235 lbs...heh

He's been slowly losing weight since he joined the team, getting quicker, more agile. When he first showed up if you've ever seen him interviewed back then he was actually big, pretty cut up, one of those Muscle Milk guys.

Already impressing. Fumbled his first exchange from under Center, which you expect especially on the first day, but has the quickest release, already unleashed a beautiful deep ball to Juron Criner over Ryan Steed, and another 17 yard out with great touch after going through progressions in 7 on 7's.

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

Sounds like Ryan Lindley is struggling mightily. He's missing "inexcusably" low all day, on about half his throws.

BTW Jeff Ireland is at South practice, the one with Lindley, Weeden and Foles.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 05:54 PM
A lot of my guys getting good reviews so far. Brandon Weeden getting great reviews. Brandon Thompson and Cam Johnson getting good reviews. Dwight Jones getting good reviews.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 05:58 PM
Quinton Coples getting good reviews, dominating Zebrie Sanders in pass rush and looking great during drills.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 06:02 PM
I've never understood the hype with either of the FSU offensive tackles. Both very overrated.

Hell, I don't get the hype for any of the offensive tackles in this draft. Matt McCants is as good as any of them from what I've seen.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 06:04 PM
You could be right about this OT class. I watched Columbia's Jeff Adams during the latter part of the Shrine week and during the game, and he looked about as good as any tackle I've seen in this Draft. Needs to put on some weight but highly athletic, very coachable, got better as the week went on and sealed up the weakness he showed early in the week with power rushers.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 06:10 PM
not much to take out of that north practice broadcast...not much at all...cam johnson looked good in the limited reps i saw...zeitler looked good in oline one vs one drills but for me at least he loses pop at the second level...russell wilson shpwed off an nfl arm imo...ball comes out quick and with something on it...

frankly i'm underwhelmed with what i saw from this roster as a whole...

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 06:14 PM
Outside of Kalil, any tackle taken in the top 10 picks is a significant reach.

There's more quality depth to this tackle class than it is strong at the top.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 06:33 PM
From what I can tell...

Kirk Cousins shows off the best arm in North camp. Weeden had the best day of South camp. Foles had some issues during practice holding onto the ball, not being able to find anyone to throw to, bad timing. Lindley (of course) had problems with accuracy. Kellen Moore has people doubting him up and down.

Isaiah Pead looked the most creative and quickest in North camp. He ought to, he's like 190 lbs. He faked a few guys out of their shorts.

Mike Adams struggled with Vinny Curry early but began dominating toward the middle part of practice. Zebrie Sanders struggled. Senio Kelemete dominated pass rushers, including Curry. Mitchell Schwartz was forced to take snaps as a center and actually held his own, surprisingly. William Vlachos struggling, Ben Jones looking far better.

Brian Linthecum (whom I always liked more than Charlie Gantt) and Mike Egnew stood out in North camp.

Alamaeda Ta'amu knocking people around, showing quick hands and great strength off the snap, pushing offensiv elinemen backwards, but gets too high and that can limit him, and he's not pass rushing worth a damn. Brandon Thompson on the other hand is getting off the ball very well and pressuring the passer, looking very good. Mike Martin had some epic battles with Mike Brewster.

Gerrell Robinson struggled to catch the ball, and McNutt struggled a little as well. Brian Quick struggled early but I hear he caught a big one for a long TD after running by Asa Jackson. DeVier Posey looked decent. Marvin Jones (one of the guys I like) might be the best route runner on the North, may have quietly had the best practice of any WR in North camp. Juron Criner caught at least one nicely thrown deep ball on the sideline from Weeden and Joe Adams got in some decent work from Weeden. Dwight Jones looked good.

Cam Johnson looked real good, as I said Vinny Curry had a good start to practice in North camp. Quinton Coples looked dominant. Melvin Ingram struggled. No reports on Upshaw doing anything of note. Jake Bequette not a guy you want in space (which I could've predicted). Shea McLellin adjusting well to OLB.

George Iloka looked very good. Janoris Jenkins looked good in battles with Jeff Fuller and covered him well. Jenkins, Boykin and Steed are the most physical on the jam. Alfonzo Dennard can run well but struggling to get his footing with his back pedal and transition.

Sean Spence getting some rave reviews from scouts.

That's about it so far.

greasyObnoxious
01-23-2012, 06:37 PM
thx ck, anything on Doug Martin or Patrick Edwards?

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 06:49 PM
Ta'amu is more of a true nose tackle and most likely a 2-down player, but he's a helluva talent. Most college defensive lineman do have a tendancy to get upright in their stance too quickly and lose leverage. I think it's due to the style of offenses they typically face nowdays. They're not coached to maintain proper leverag and play the position the way Josh Chapman does....especially in conferences that throw it 50-60 times a game.

I've watched Michael Brockers closely. The first thing that I notice is he tends to get upright immediately and lose leverage. He's on skates half the time and can't anchor. It's because LSU is playing with a big lead half the time and kids like Brockers are trying to rack up sacks.

Jason Pierre-Paul was one of the worst cases of this I've seen when he was coming out of South Florida, he's turned into a pretty good player.

The difference is, when it's time to get down and dirty and a true war breaks out at the line of scrimmage, Brockers' technique suddenly gets much, much better. SEC defensive lines tend to have it when they need it.



I'm not particularly interested in how well or poorly any of the QB's perform in this setting, it's not going to change much in terms of how I view them anyway. The best QB's at the Senior Bowl usually end up being failures in the NFL, and the worst one's end up starting and outperforming their draft position.

It's all about what's on film. If you've done your homework, you already have a pretty good idea of what translates and what doesn't.... who can play and who can't.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 06:57 PM
Ta'amu is more of a true nose tackle and most likely a 2-down player, but he's a helluva talent. Most college defensive lineman do have a tendancy to get upright in their stance too quickly and lose leverage. I think it's due to the style of offenses they typically face nowdays. They're not coached to maintain proper leverag and play the position the way Josh Chapman does....especially in conferences that throw it 50-60 times a game.

I've watched Michael Brockers closely. The first thing that I notice is he tends to get upright immediately and lose leverage. He's on skates half the time and can't anchor. It's because LSU is playing with a big lead half the time and kids like Brockers are trying to rack up sacks.

Jason Pierre-Paul was one of the worst cases of this I've seen when he was coming out of South Florida, he's turned into a pretty good player.

The difference is, when it's time to get down and dirty and a true war breaks out at the line of scrimmage, Brockers' technique suddenly gets much, much better. SEC defensive lines tend to have it when they need it.



I'm not particularly interested in how well or poorly any of the QB's perform in this setting, it's not going to change much in terms of how I view them anyway. The best QB's at the Senior Bowl usually end up being failures in the NFL, and the worst one's end up starting and outperforming their draft position.

It's all about what's on film. If you've done your homework, you already have a pretty good idea of what translates and what doesn't.... who can play and who can't.

That's certainly not been my experience tracking these things over the last decade.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 07:08 PM
That's certainly not been my experience tracking these things over the last decade.


It happened last year. Kaepernick was the best QB all week last year and Andy Dalton was the worst. Dalton just started from day 1 and led his team to the playoffs while Harbaugh is still trying to break Colin Kaepernick of reaching back all the way to Salt Lake City to throw the football.

Pat White was the best QB in Mobile, along with the MVP of the game itself. Chad Henne looked terrific at the Senior Bowl.

Hell I remember Cade McNown winning the MVP at the Senior Bowl.

There's several, several more examples that I'm leaving out. I'm not saying it's the case 100% of the time. Just saying that it's the case a lot of times.

Certain type QB's are always going to standout in this type of setting, and certain types are always going to struggle. But in no way does it determine who can play and who can't.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 07:29 PM
I've never heard any report that said that Kaepernick was the best QB all week. The best I heard about him was that he was showing up Jake Locker (not hard to do) and looking surprisingly good. Never heard any report that said Dalton was the worst all week, either. The guy who clearly had the best game was Christian Ponder. Kaepernick did not have a good game.

And Pat White was not the best passer in Mobile by a long shot. He got the MVP of the game, but that was for his work running the ball. He completed something like 4 of 12 passes during the game.

I think it's like seeing shapes in cloud formations. If you're intent to see it a certain way then that's what you'll do. But Phil Rivers and Carson Palmer absolutely killed the Senior Bowl, and they went on to good careers. I know from my own experiences having watched Shrine practices up close the last three years that a lot of what you see out there translates.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 07:46 PM
Carson Palmer and Phillip Rivers were already outstanding quarterbacks on film and in games before they ever went to Mobile. They didn't become good quarterbacks because of the Senior Bowl. They were already good quarterbacks.

People can place whatever significance you want on a week of Senior Bowl practice, along with any hype that comes via the Tom Condon hype train (Blaine Gabbert, etc.) Be my guest.

I'd assume the Titans are satisfied with Jake Locker. Hell, they had a 2nd string rookie that can outperform Sam Bradford and Blaine Gabbert.

An outstanding Senior Bowl performance can't keep Christian Ponder healthy.


Andy Dalton was bad all week. Colin Kaepernick was excellent all week. If it's necessary to go back and read a wide range of Senior Bowl reports from last year to refresh you memory, do so.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 07:49 PM
Some thoughts on North practice from a draftnik that admittedly I do not know and cannot vouch for:

- Russell Wilson overall shined the most, strong arm, ability to drive football, not perfect accuracy but good
- Kirk Cousins inconsistent, up and down accuracy, but did a good job driving ball outside the numbers
- Kellen Moore no power in his throws

- Most impressive was Chris Polk but hard position to look at, at this stage in practice

- Brian Quick not a good day, slow, sloppy routes, no burst
- Gerrell Robinson good athleticism
- DeVier Posey good but doesn't have the speed to make big plays deep
- Michael Egnew looked athletic as a receiver over the middle

- Mike Adams the best OL today, dominated pass rush drills
- Mike Brewster had good battles with Mike Martin, came away as winner
- Zeitler started slow but finished strong, doing well in pass pro second time around
- Kelechi Osemele showed a lack of lateral agility that should see him moving inside
- Garth Gerhart outclassed today

- Defensive Line winners were Derek Wolfe and Mike Martin
- Wolfe great pass rush, motor, get-off, pad level
- Martin a pitbull, good strength, great leverage at point of attack
- Vinny Curry good agility off the snap but no pass rush moves, Mike Adams dominated at point of attack
- Alamaeda Ta'amu definitely a two-down plugger
- Kendall Reyes surprising, good quickness and agility
- Billy Wynn may slide in draft, does most things well but nothing really well
- Cam Johnson impressive, one of the best bursts off the ball of any player, agility and quickness, needs better hands

-

beanh8er
01-23-2012, 07:53 PM
Yea I recall Kaep was lighting it up while Dalton wasn't. Here's a question I never got answered. Why was Gabbert rated so highly with such bad collegiate stats? He barely had more TDs thrown in his career than Chase Daniels did in one season.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 08:09 PM
Yea I recall Kaep was lighting it up while Dalton wasn't. Here's a question I never got answered. Why was Gabbert rated so highly with such bad collegiate stats? He barely had more TDs thrown in his career than Chase Daniels did in one season.


The Tom Condon hype train. That's it, and 95% of the people that bought into Blaine Gabbert went purely off the hype and never actually watched the kid play. Otherwise, I find it hard to believe that so many would've been mislead.

There's no way you could watch him without seeing him bail from clean pockets while the defense was only sending a 3 man rush. His lack of accuracy and ball placement on throws beyond 10 yards.

His "stock" took off because Andrew Luck went back to Stanford and Gabbert was the underclassman who's flaws hadn't been put under the microscope yet.

That's why I don't like how QB's shoot up draft boards based on another QB or two staying in school. Blaine Gabbert nor Christian Ponder should've been 1st round picks.

datruth55
01-23-2012, 08:19 PM
Actually Weeden's hands are 9.5 inches and yes Russell Wilson's hands are 10.0 inches. Half an inch difference not exactly earth shattering there.

Weeden is put together very well for a quarterback at 6034 and 219 lbs, 30.5 inch arms and 9.5 inch hands. His hands aren't small for a QB, they're normal sized. Could his hands be a little bigger? Sure. Does it matter on a guy that throws a 97 mph fast ball and puts smoke trails on the football? No.

Foles has a fantastic 6'5" and 244 lbs frame with hands nearly 11 inches but his 33 inch arms are a little longer than ideal for quick, compact, versatile and consistent mechanics.
It's pretty significant when one guy is 6'3.5" and the other is only 5'10". Wilson has huge hands for a guy his size.

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 08:23 PM
I found it interesting tonight on NFL32 that they were talking the importance of hand size. Dilfer mention that it is an important measurement and Mort quoted Mike McCarthy has saying it is indicator off being able to play in all weather conditions wet and cold included.

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 08:25 PM
I bet Foles steals the show for QB's. Foles and Tannehill will push for the 3rd QB in the draft.

Foles size is impressive and loved him as a junior. He did not get much help this year and was in the middle of a coaching change.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 08:26 PM
mike adams is one massive dude...and for that size he looked pretty darn athletic to me...

count me as an isiah pead fan...

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 08:29 PM
mike adams is one massive dude...and for that size he looked pretty darn athletic to me...

count me as an isiah pead fan...

I am hoping some RT prospects can emerge for the 2nd or 3rd round. He might be one.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 08:35 PM
I found it interesting tonight on NFL32 that they were talking the importance of hand size. Dilfer mention that it is an important measurement and Mort quoted Mike McCarthy has saying it is indicator off being able to play in all weather conditions wet and cold included.


The issues with small hands for a quarterback surface long before playing in the elements is even a factor. It begins with taking the snap from under center, and Weeden did fumble his first one today.

The proper way to receive a snap from under center is your hand on the meat of the football. If you have trouble getting your hand around the meat of the football, the center has to compensate for it by turning the football a full 90 degrees as opposed to a 'stock' 1/4 turn. It can lead to a long term issue that will always affect being able to take snaps from under center without mishandled snaps creeping in at times.

Inclement weather or high pressure situations magnify it.


It's just something to pay attention to.....

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 08:38 PM
if he continues to look the way he looked to me today in full pads when the men separate from the boys tomorrow and wednesday i'm thinking mike adams might be a 1st rounder...he towers over people and like i said i didn't see a waist bender despite that size...

i don't know...i know this...this draft to me is not the same level as the last 2 years...i think this drafts depth is lacking...i see a lot of guys who i don't think will help anyone in 2012...shrine bowl for my eyes was loaded with meh talent...senior bowl roster and north practice i saw few and far between...hopefully it will get better tomorrow...

dennard struggled with transitioning to his pedal and i think he lacks long speed...he was off balance all day...no wonder the guys so hands on...he has to be...quite overrated imo...amukamura last year had way better feet balance and hips...

leonard johnson is someone i've had my eye on but i thought today he had average feet and burst...i wanna see these guys in press mirror these wrs...and the north wrs...ehhhh...awful lot of guys running crap routes and lacking burst imo...

devier posey just the next garbage pro wr to come out of ohio st...the quick kid i thought was interesting til i saw him run routes...no burst or explosion there

stiff hips and meh prospects all over the place

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 08:50 PM
if he continues to look the way he looked to me today in full pads when the men separate from the boys tomorrow and wednesday i'm thinking mike adams might be a 1st rounder...he towers over people and like i said i didn't see a waist bender despite that size...

i don't know...i know this...this draft to me is not the same level as the last 2 years...i think this drafts depth is lacking...i see a lot of guys who i don't think will help anyone in 2012...shrine bowl for my eyes was loaded with meh talent...senior bowl roster and north practice i saw few and far between...hopefully it will get better tomorrow...

dennard struggled with transitioning to his pedal and i think he lacks long speed...he was off balance all day...no wonder the guys so hands on...he has to be...quite overrated imo...amukamura last year had way better feet balance and hips...

leonard johnson is someone i've had my eye on but i thought today he had average feet and burst...i wanna see these guys in press mirror these wrs...and the north wrs...ehhhh...awful lot of guys running crap routes and lacking burst imo...

devier posey just the next garbage pro wr to come out of ohio st...the quick kid i thought was interesting til i saw him run routes...no burst or explosion there

stiff hips and meh prospects all over the place



We talked about exactly that with Dennard several weeks ago after the Nebraska/South Carolina bowl game.

Devier Posey isn't even on my draft board. I literally like nothing about him. On or off the field.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 08:54 PM
where is that explosive ready to give you 8 sacks as a rookie at least impact pass rush prospect in this draft??? i can't find it...cam johnson today to me looked like he had the best get off of the ball and i thought he redirected nicely back inside but he was wearing out a guy kisemele to me i think his name was who needs to be kicked inside...

where's the damn top 10 pass rush talent you find in pretty much every draft??? coples...ehhh...love the length love the frame but don't love the lack of hand use to get off blocks as a pass rusher or the relatively average explosion i see...could be a monster but he's definitely not a can't miss guy...and i don't care what anyone says i'm not taking that guy to play 34 olb...he'll give up soft corners all day long against speed imo...i'm taking him to play in 4 man fronts and shift inside in some packages...

not a fan of the ingram kid in the top 10...sure looks like a guy to me who is most effective with a hand in the dirt...and most comfortable...

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 09:02 PM
where is that explosive ready to give you 8 sacks as a rookie at least impact pass rush prospect in this draft??? i can't find it...cam johnson today to me looked like he had the best get off of the ball and i thought he redirected nicely back inside but he was wearing out a guy kisemele to me i think his name was who needs to be kicked inside...

where's the damn top 10 pass rush talent you find in pretty much every draft??? coples...ehhh...love the length love the frame but don't love the lack of hand use to get off blocks as a pass rusher or the relatively average explosion i see...could be a monster but he's definitely not a can't miss guy...and i don't care what anyone says i'm not taking that guy to play 34 olb...he'll give up soft corners all day long against speed imo...i'm taking him to play in 4 man fronts and shift inside in some packages...

not a fan of the ingram kid in the top 10...sure looks like a guy to me who is most effective with a hand in the dirt...and most comfortable...


Ingram is better from a 2-point stance than he is with his hand in the dirt. The thing about Ingram is that you don't have to pencil him in as "this" or "that". He can play a variety of roles because he has a rare combination of speed, athletic ability, weight, frame and strength. I think he can literally play 5 different roles in a front 7.

Keep in mind that we're not seeing guys like Nick Perry and Ronnell Lewis either until the combine.

If Upshaw doesn't get 8 sacks as a rookie I'll eat my hat. Somebody is going to surprise you and end up being as good as they appear to be in games.

Like I said, once you see the broad jump/vertical jump numbers from the combine, you'll be able to narrow down who the 10 sack candidates are.

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 09:08 PM
admittedly i don't have much exposure to ingram other than the bowl game...and i swear he played the whole thing pretty much in a 3 point stance...i couldn't tell at all if he could play 34 olb...i'm guessing you think he can...

that 10 yard split number matters to me also...its not an end all be all but if a guy shows he gets off the ball well like that wilber kid did in the shrine game and backs it up with a fast 10 yard split tells me i have a pretty good initial quickness edge rusher...at least he's got tools

slimm if you have seen evidence of upshaw showing something other than pure power edge pass rusher wearing out tackles point me in the direction of it...thats what i'm looking for

hooshoops
01-23-2012, 09:36 PM
i tell ya one thing though...i think upshaw will destroy blocking schemes if they try to get away with blocking him with a te...he's way too strong for that...i think he'll toss them around the room

that said if you take upshaw and make him your 3 down solb that 2nd round pick 2 years ago on misi becomes bust mode...i guess you could shift him inside to lb in some packages and get some run from him there...i still say that guy can play ilb in a 34 in some packages...

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 09:48 PM
Hoops, you have to understand the responsibilies of force and contain. Saban's defense is designed to defend from the inside out. Upshaw is often the "force" player on runs that come to his side. His priority is to maintain proper outside leverage and "force" the runner back inside to where the meat and strength of the defense is at. That's why Bama's defense doesn't give up long runs.

He can't tee off on every play. On 3rd downs, he can usually let it go a little more.


Aldon Smith didn't beat any tackles with a flat out speed rush last year. He only had 4.5 sacks in 10 games, and 2 of those came in the first game against Illinois. He whipped up on Nate Solder the year before, but Solder couldn't even get out of his stance against Cam Jordan.

Aldon Smith is allowed to come in for the 49ers strictly in pass rush situations and throw responsibility to the wind and tee off on QB's while he has fresh legs. If he becomes a full time starter and has to play the run on 1st and 2nd down every game, his sack totals are going to go down... but he's actually going to be a better football player.

Upshaw is immediately going to make the defense better for whichever team he goes to. He's not Von Miller, Derrick Thomas, or Terrell Suggs as a pure college pass rusher, but who is?

I just don't think it's possible to tell yet who's going to be racking up double digit sacks as a rookie. A lot of it is going to depend on how they're used, and whether or not they're starting players and required to play disciplined football on 1st and 2nd down, as opposed to strictly being a fresh legged pass rusher.

Go back and look at Upshaw's game last year against Cam Newton, and then the bowl game against Michigan St. Look at any of his games this year against Florida, Ole Miss, LSU, and Auburn. The guy can flat out get after the quarterback when the situation calls for it and he's allowed to cut loose.

Hayden Fox
01-23-2012, 09:54 PM
Upshaw might not shine in this Senior Bowl setting. However, when he is put into a setting and a scheme he could thrive...

All this Upshaw talk is irreverent if we go 4-3.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 10:24 PM
Yea I recall Kaep was lighting it up while Dalton wasn't. Here's a question I never got answered. Why was Gabbert rated so highly with such bad collegiate stats? He barely had more TDs thrown in his career than Chase Daniels did in one season.

A number of reasons. I don't agree with Slimm that it's just the Condon hype train. I don't think a plethora of professional scouts, coaches and GMs, guys that have been doing this longer and at a higher level than Slimm or myself could ever hope to, end up making these evaluations and decisions because of an agent.

Simply put, it's the dreaded 'P' word...potential.

Blaine Gabbert is a tall, clean and accurate thrower. You can get him in a practice setting and he'll pit the ace from 40 yards. He's got a photographic memory and a clean character profile. He's got athletic ability on that frame that is uncommon at the position. He sees the field well enough and can think quickly enough, has the confidence in his own throwing ability to throw players open.

When it comes to the offense and his lack of great games, you could certainly point to the lack of help, and a system that I think maybe some scouts hoped more than thought, just wasn't suited for him. Those receivers were pretty bad at times.

I think scouts envisioned him as a guy that maybe came out a year too early, but they were also pretty sure that if he returned for that year he'd end up looking a lot better.

I'm not trying to feed you any gimmicks or hype or anything like that. I'm just relating to you what the scouts actually thought about him, which I know through various contacts.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 10:26 PM
I found it interesting tonight on NFL32 that they were talking the importance of hand size. Dilfer mention that it is an important measurement and Mort quoted Mike McCarthy has saying it is indicator off being able to play in all weather conditions wet and cold included.

I agree it can be pretty important. But I don't believe there's any prototype that says 10 inch hands are a must. 9.5 inch hands are considered plenty big for the QB position.

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 PM ----------


I bet Foles steals the show for QB's. Foles and Tannehill will push for the 3rd QB in the draft.

Foles size is impressive and loved him as a junior. He did not get much help this year and was in the middle of a coaching change.

Foles may steal the show but the QB darling from day, unanimous across pretty much all reports that saw him, was Weeden.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 10:30 PM
The issues with small hands for a quarterback surface long before playing in the elements is even a factor. It begins with taking the snap from under center, and Weeden did fumble his first one today.

You could blame that on hands which are, in fact, not small for a quarterback.

Or you could pay attention to the elephant standing next to you in the room, the fact that he played in a shotgun offense at Oklahoma State and this is the first real practice setting where he's taken a lot of snaps from under Center...

Just sayin...


The proper way to receive a snap from under center is your hand on the meat of the football. If you have trouble getting your hand around the meat of the football, the center has to compensate for it by turning the football a full 90 degrees as opposed to a 'stock' 1/4 turn. It can lead to a long term issue that will always affect being able to take snaps from under center without mishandled snaps creeping in at times.

Inclement weather or high pressure situations magnify it.

It's just something to pay attention to.....

I definitely agree with your greater point, that hand size is going to show up a lot more than just in inclement weather. It's definitely something to keep an eye on. But never in my years paying attention to all this have I ever heard the idea put forward that 9.5 inch hands are "small" for a quarterback. This thread is, quite literally, the very first time I've heard that. Ever.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 10:32 PM
if he continues to look the way he looked to me today in full pads when the men separate from the boys tomorrow and wednesday i'm thinking mike adams might be a 1st rounder...he towers over people and like i said i didn't see a waist bender despite that size...

i don't know...i know this...this draft to me is not the same level as the last 2 years...i think this drafts depth is lacking...i see a lot of guys who i don't think will help anyone in 2012...shrine bowl for my eyes was loaded with meh talent...senior bowl roster and north practice i saw few and far between...hopefully it will get better tomorrow...

dennard struggled with transitioning to his pedal and i think he lacks long speed...he was off balance all day...no wonder the guys so hands on...he has to be...quite overrated imo...amukamura last year had way better feet balance and hips...

leonard johnson is someone i've had my eye on but i thought today he had average feet and burst...i wanna see these guys in press mirror these wrs...and the north wrs...ehhhh...awful lot of guys running crap routes and lacking burst imo...

devier posey just the next garbage pro wr to come out of ohio st...the quick kid i thought was interesting til i saw him run routes...no burst or explosion there

stiff hips and meh prospects all over the place

You have to keep in mind that both Dennard and Johnson were put in position to be uncomfortable today, playing techniques they are not used to, asked to do things differently than they've generally ever done them before. That's the source of awkwardness you see out of guys like Johnson, Dennard and Fleming today. It's not really lack of ability, IMO.

ckparrothead
01-23-2012, 10:35 PM
Ingram is better from a 2-point stance than he is with his hand in the dirt. The thing about Ingram is that you don't have to pencil him in as "this" or "that". He can play a variety of roles because he has a rare combination of speed, athletic ability, weight, frame and strength. I think he can literally play 5 different roles in a front 7.

Keep in mind that we're not seeing guys like Nick Perry and Ronnell Lewis either until the combine.

If Upshaw doesn't get 8 sacks as a rookie I'll eat my hat. Somebody is going to surprise you and end up being as good as they appear to be in games.

Like I said, once you see the broad jump/vertical jump numbers from the combine, you'll be able to narrow down who the 10 sack candidates are.

I agree with this. When you told me to take a look at Ingram more and I did, I saw Adalius Thomas. That's who I liken him to at the next level. He doesn't have the arms or the frame to be a consistent pass rusher, and we have disagreements about the source of his incredible slowness off the snap, but if it's something structural and not something fixable, then once again I point to Adalius Thomas and Melvin's future as a large, versatile linebacker.

And 100% agreed on Upshaw. You and I talked about Pernell McPhee a lot last year. Upshaw is Pernell McPhee as a pass rusher but with Von Miller's linebacker skills added in. He's going to be a good player.

beanh8er
01-23-2012, 10:55 PM
A number of reasons. I don't agree with Slimm that it's just the Condon hype train. I don't think a plethora of professional scouts, coaches and GMs, guys that have been doing this longer and at a higher level than Slimm or myself could ever hope to, end up making these evaluations and decisions because of an agent.

Simply put, it's the dreaded 'P' word...potential.

Blaine Gabbert is a tall, clean and accurate thrower. You can get him in a practice setting and he'll pit the ace from 40 yards. He's got a photographic memory and a clean character profile. He's got athletic ability on that frame that is uncommon at the position. He sees the field well enough and can think quickly enough, has the confidence in his own throwing ability to throw players open.

When it comes to the offense and his lack of great games, you could certainly point to the lack of help, and a system that I think maybe some scouts hoped more than thought, just wasn't suited for him. Those receivers were pretty bad at times.

I think scouts envisioned him as a guy that maybe came out a year too early, but they were also pretty sure that if he returned for that year he'd end up looking a lot better.

I'm not trying to feed you any gimmicks or hype or anything like that. I'm just relating to you what the scouts actually thought about him, which I know through various contacts.

I wasn't doubting you on anything you said. I get that potential has a huge role in where people are drafted, and Gabbert looks the part, but at a certain point production has to come into it, and he had pretty close to no production at all given that offense. So you're view is that scouts were looking for something that wasn't there, but they so were convinced it was there that they just thought they were missing it? Pretty foolish on their part.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 11:18 PM
A number of reasons. I don't agree with Slimm that it's just the Condon hype train. I don't think a plethora of professional scouts, coaches and GMs, guys that have been doing this longer and at a higher level than Slimm or myself could ever hope to, end up making these evaluations and decisions because of an agent.

Simply put, it's the dreaded 'P' word...potential.

Blaine Gabbert is a tall, clean and accurate thrower. You can get him in a practice setting and he'll pit the ace from 40 yards. He's got a photographic memory and a clean character profile. He's got athletic ability on that frame that is uncommon at the position. He sees the field well enough and can think quickly enough, has the confidence in his own throwing ability to throw players open.

When it comes to the offense and his lack of great games, you could certainly point to the lack of help, and a system that I think maybe some scouts hoped more than thought, just wasn't suited for him. Those receivers were pretty bad at times.

I think scouts envisioned him as a guy that maybe came out a year too early, but they were also pretty sure that if he returned for that year he'd end up looking a lot better.

I'm not trying to feed you any gimmicks or hype or anything like that. I'm just relating to you what the scouts actually thought about him, which I know through various contacts.



I don't think as many scouts were sold on Blaine Gabbert as the Tom Condon hype indicated. I don't believe scouts are that stupid, but scouts have very little say come draft day. The only NFL person I know for sure liked Gabbert was the one who drafted him and just fired his head coach.

I know Mike Shanahan and Washington wasn't sold on him. If they were they would've drafted him. Along with the Tennessee Titans, who were intelligent enough to take that "bum" Jake Locker instead.

Blaine Gabbert was a terrible quarterback at Missouri, which is why he didn't even make an All Big-12 team, and he's a terrible quarterback in the NFL for the same exact reasons he was a terrible quarterback at Missouri. He couldn't even produce in a system (and conference) designed to inflate his stats. That alone was a huge red flag, much less his lack of anything resembling pocket presence and accuracy.


Evaluating talent and coaching it are two completely different things. Evaluating talent is essentially projecting and guesswork. Anybody with two eyeballs can see "elite physical tools" in a football player. Knowing how to coach fundamentals and molding a football player with your own hands involves no guesswork or projection.

If you can't spot the things that a guy is doing wrong as opposed to what he's doing right, that's the difference between a football coach and a sportswriter. A sportswriter only knows what somebody else tells them.

The half a dozen little things that a center and quarterback have to get right in the tenth of second it takes to snap the football.... well.. there's only one way to know that... and that's by being on the field teaching it.

I'd refrain from speaking on behalf of what Slimm has done and at what level if I were you. You don't learn what I know from surfing stat websites.

TedSlimmJr
01-23-2012, 11:35 PM
I agree with this. When you told me to take a look at Ingram more and I did, I saw Adalius Thomas. That's who I liken him to at the next level. He doesn't have the arms or the frame to be a consistent pass rusher, and we have disagreements about the source of his incredible slowness off the snap, but if it's something structural and not something fixable, then once again I point to Adalius Thomas and Melvin's future as a large, versatile linebacker.

And 100% agreed on Upshaw. You and I talked about Pernell McPhee a lot last year. Upshaw is Pernell McPhee as a pass rusher but with Von Miller's linebacker skills added in. He's going to be a good player.



I didn't say Melvin Ingram has an ideal combination, I said he has a rare combination. You don't come across many 275 pound defensive lineman with the athletic ability, speed and open field running skills that Ingram possesses, or even get very close to it often. Obviously he has short arms and he'd have a little more length to him if he was an ideal combination. The point is, don't mistake rare for ideal.

Some guys just have a knack for making plays because instinct and football IQ. The right coach with the right plan for Melvin Ingram should be rewarded.

hooshoops
01-24-2012, 12:03 AM
mayock just said something interesting about weeden...he said he'll be a 29 year old rookie in october how do you feel as a general manager about a kid who by the time he gets to his second contract will be a 33-34 year old guy...

i think its a valid point...

bigvince75
01-24-2012, 12:19 AM
One player who I'm definitely starting to get intrigued by is Jack Crawford. Good balance of size and strength and a huge wingspan.

I'm warming up to Cam Johnson as well.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 12:20 AM
It's a valid question, always has been a valid question. The follow up question should be, "How do you feel as a general manager knowing that you may be fired before Brandon Weeden can reach his 2nd contract, wherever he ends up, because you don't win in this league without a quarterback?"

That would be my follow up question.

Lord Of Miami
01-24-2012, 12:24 AM
Brandon Weeden's age should only keep him out of the top 20 in my mind.

bigvince75
01-24-2012, 12:26 AM
I'm starting to become a fan of Audie Cole. I've ben reading a lot of good things leading up to the Senior Bowl and sofar he's been off to a good start at the senior bowl. I was hoping Lavonte David would weight in heavier than 225; i love how he plays but I can't see him as a LB at the next level.

insom187
01-24-2012, 01:16 AM
At this point from what I'm reading around the web Upshaw sounds like a solid impact defensive player at the 9 spot which is fine by me. At this point though I really want Fleener out of Stanford. The league still hasn't adjusted to big, fast TEs and he could become the next one in line.

Hayden Fox
01-24-2012, 06:59 AM
mayock just said something interesting about weeden...he said he'll be a 29 year old rookie in october how do you feel as a general manager about a kid who by the time he gets to his second contract will be a 33-34 year old guy...

i think its a valid point...

It has been the question I and many others have said all year. He is too damn old.

A GM has better chance of getting his *** fired for drafting an old quarterback as a franchise's answer to the quarterback than vice-versa.

Hayden Fox
01-24-2012, 07:09 AM
Go sign Matt Flynn and be done with this argument for at least awhile. Flynn, who is slightly younger than Weeden, makes this argument of Weeden obsolete.

Flynn has been in a pro system...Joe Philbin's nonetheless and he is ready to become a NFL starter. He has compete against actual NFL D's and has been around the professional game.

In terms of Weeden HOWEVER, I will still keep an open mind and see how he competes during this week. I am interested to see if he (or whomever) makes the most progress.

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 10:40 AM
mayock just said something interesting about weeden...he said he'll be a 29 year old rookie in october how do you feel as a general manager about a kid who by the time he gets to his second contract will be a 33-34 year old guy...

i think its a valid point...


This was the question I brought up to CK in another thread which lead to a longer discussion. & not to rehash it, there were only two starting QBs in the NFL this past year that were that age or older; Tom Brady & Matt Hasselbeck (I'll throw Peyton in there too). Next year you can add Brees & Palmer, so in short you have to be damn near elite to start at that age. Will Weeden be at that level, more than likely not.

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 11:05 AM
Go sign Matt Flynn and be done with this argument for at least awhile. Flynn, who is slightly younger than Weeden, makes this argument of Weeden obsolete.

If you can't get Luck, RGIII, or Peyton you keep Moore. He deserves a shot more than spending a pick on Weeden. He's younger, developed as the season went on like you expect, & has proven he can win with this team. He finished the season 6-3, 15 Tds, 5 Ints, 61% completion. Over their final nine games that's better numbers than every starting QB not named Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Stafford, & Ryan, THAT'S IT. His numbers were better than Eli (16 TDs, 11 Ints, 58%, Rec 4-5), Big Ben (12 TDs, 8 Ints, 64%, Rec 7-2), & arguably Rivers (20 TDs, 9 Ints, 62%, Rec 4-5) over that time span.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 11:48 AM
This was the question I brought up to CK in another thread which lead to a longer discussion. & not to rehash it, there were only two starting QBs in the NFL this past year that were that age or older; Tom Brady & Matt Hasselbeck (I'll throw Peyton in there too). Next year you can add Brees & Palmer, so in short you have to be damn near elite to start at that age. Will Weeden be at that level, more than likely not.

Your methodology here is a little bit flawed. There's an obvious survivor's bias in looking at QBs that start over a certain age. They've all been in the league so long that if they're not talented, they've already been found out, and so they bit the dust long ago. The mere fact that there are really good QBs at that age every year that continue starting and playing well shows that IF Brandon Weeden is a good quarterback, then you can fully expect him to continue playing well into that age range.

It's the opposite of what you're trying to imply. It's evidence that your PRIMARY question on Brandon Weeden is, how talented is he? Because, if he's talented, he's going to keep playing into his mid 30's and maybe even beyond. You just showed that by bringing up all those examples.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 11:50 AM
Go sign Matt Flynn and be done with this argument for at least awhile. Flynn, who is slightly younger than Weeden, makes this argument of Weeden obsolete.

Flynn has been in a pro system...Joe Philbin's nonetheless and he is ready to become a NFL starter. He has compete against actual NFL D's and has been around the professional game.

In terms of Weeden HOWEVER, I will still keep an open mind and see how he competes during this week. I am interested to see if he (or whomever) makes the most progress.

An interesting measure considering Weeden went out there on Monday already and observers pretty much unanimously agreed that he showed himself to be head and shoulders above the rest of the quarterbacks in his squad. If progress is what you're looking for, does that mean that if Ryan Lindley improves during the week to where by the end he's looking nearly as impressive as Weeden, you'll take Lindley over Weeden because in your eyes Lindley was the one that made progress?

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 12:26 PM
Your methodology here is a little bit flawed. There's an obvious survivor's bias in looking at QBs that start over a certain age. They've all been in the league so long that if they're not talented, they've already been found out, and so they bit the dust long ago. The mere fact that there are really good QBs at that age every year that continue starting and playing well shows that IF Brandon Weeden is a good quarterback, then you can fully expect him to continue playing well into that age range.

It's the opposite of what you're trying to imply. It's evidence that your PRIMARY question on Brandon Weeden is, how talented is he? Because, if he's talented, he's going to keep playing into his mid 30's and maybe even beyond. You just showed that by bringing up all those examples.

I don't follow your logic. My facts back up my point. Weeden will have to be damn near elite to survive as a starter. It's not like he's been resting for years & just decided to play football. He still has a lot of wear & tear on his arm from playing baseball. That's another test he'll have to pass at the combine, how sound is his shoulder which caused the end to his baseball career. But I'm done arguing this point, time will tell.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 12:40 PM
I don't follow your logic. My facts back up my point. Weeden will have to be damn near elite to survive as a starter. It's not like he's been resting for years & just decided to play football. He still has a lot of wear & tear on his arm from playing baseball. That's another test he'll have to pass at the combine, how sound is his shoulder which caused the end to his baseball career. But I'm done arguing this point, time will tell.

I guess you must have lost me right around the point where you insinuated that Matt Hasselbeck is "damn near elite"...

Hayden Fox
01-24-2012, 01:23 PM
The discussion on Weeden is NOT if he can be a starter next year. It is can he beat out Tannehill, Foles or Cousins for the number three spot.

He has work cut out for him. Tannehill has the "upside" that teams will love. Foles is a specimen, that teams will want to work with and Cousins is a four year starter, in a pro system, good arm strength, great character and is of normal age.

I just do not see Weeden over coming this on draft day.

However, again, I am willing to see what he does in a pro setting this week. I said at the start of the week Foles would make up the most ground. However, I am wondering if my boy Kirk Cousins does?

j-off-her-doll
01-24-2012, 02:01 PM
If I were a betting man, I think the QB draft order would go something like:

Luck
RG3
Tannehill
Weeden
Wild Card

I think that fifth spot is really open, but I'm pretty confident with the order of the first four. I'd take Tannehill over RG3, though.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 02:16 PM
The discussion on Weeden is NOT if he can be a starter next year. It is can he beat out Tannehill, Foles or Cousins for the number three spot.

He has work cut out for him. Tannehill has the "upside" that teams will love. Foles is a specimen, that teams will want to work with and Cousins is a four year starter, in a pro system, good arm strength, great character and is of normal age.

I just do not see Weeden over coming this on draft day.

However, again, I am willing to see what he does in a pro setting this week. I said at the start of the week Foles would make up the most ground. However, I am wondering if my boy Kirk Cousins does?

It appears thus far that Kirk Cousins is helping himself a lot. He came in taller than 6'2" which some people did not expect. He's up against Russell Wilson and Kellen Clemens, so his arm looks strong next to those guys. That seems to be the thing that is impressing people most about him thus far, the arm strength...because he's throwing it stronger than Moore (obviously) and also Wilson (a little surprising). I heard some say Wilson overall had the more crisp day yesterday but the buzz is stronger right now on Cousins.

On the other hand, the media are very clear and unanimous that Weeden is the best QB there. It doesn't even seem to be a question at this point.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 02:24 PM
Count me among the people having a hard time being impressed with Mike Adams. To me he's not a structurally sound player, more of a waist bender than not, reaches a lot, doesn't play compact or with good balance, and plays far too soft most of the time. His body reminds me a little of Jah Reid from UCF but Reid had better natural pad level, a better back and better knee bend. He plays more like James Brewer in that he's huge and can move pretty well, but Brewer was soft as a wad of cookie dough and not overly effective.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 02:28 PM
What I kind of expected with Kirk Cousins, and it's hard to tell if this is coming to fruition or not, is for him to look good in 7 on 7's and other pressureless drills, but when you get him into situations where he's got to handle pressure, he will look shakey. I also expect him to throw interceptions. It sounds like he threw one ot George Iloka but I can't tell so far if evaluators are dinging him for it.

jim1
01-24-2012, 02:35 PM
The discussion on Weeden is NOT if he can be a starter next year. It is can he beat out Tannehill, Foles or Cousins for the number three spot.

He has work cut out for him. Tannehill has the "upside" that teams will love. Foles is a specimen, that teams will want to work with and Cousins is a four year starter, in a pro system, good arm strength, great character and is of normal age.

I just do not see Weeden over coming this on draft day.

However, again, I am willing to see what he does in a pro setting this week. I said at the start of the week Foles would make up the most ground. However, I am wondering if my boy Kirk Cousins does?

Thank you Chairman Mao for once again trying to define the discussion. Unfortunately, yet again, you're wrong. There is no reason why Weeden can't step in and be an NFL starter in his rookie year. Newton, Dalton, Ponder, Gabbert, take your pick- and that's just from last year. Even if he spent his first year getting acclimated, that's fine. No one- njot RGIII, Tannehill, Foles, take your pick, has Weeden's superior arm. He's by all accounts a cerebral player, outstanding leader and a great guy. Weeden's upside next year wiill be to fight for a #3 spot? Hardly. The day that he steps on an NFL field he'll already be better that Pat Devlin or JP Losman.

You consistently sell Weeden short, due to your age bias and quite frankly, I doubt that you've watched enough of him to have a firm opinion, or maybe rating QBs isn't one of your fortes. I'll say it again- the fact that you rated Landry Jones ahead of Weeden, especially after watching thm play head to head, tells me all that I need to know about your rating of QBs. An I could care less how Kiper, our dear Walter from Walter Football or anyone else has the QBs rated- the tape don't lie. You clearly have no idea how good Brandon Weeden is.

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 02:39 PM
I guess you must have lost me right around the point where you insinuated that Matt Hasselbeck is "damn near elite"...

As Terrell Suggs told Skip Bayless yesterday, don't be a douche bag, you know that comment was in reference to Brady, Manning, Brees, & Palmer. Hasselbeck's career took a steep nose dive in 2005 when... surprise surprise he turned 33.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 02:46 PM
As Terrell Suggs told Skip Bayless yesterday, don't be a douche bag, you know that comment was in reference to Brady, Manning, Brees, & Palmer. Hasselbeck's career took a steep nose dive in 2005 when... surprise surprise he turned 33.

I see. So disagreeing with you and pointing out the obvious holes in your logic = "being a douchebag". Got it. Nice discussion.

Hayden Fox
01-24-2012, 03:15 PM
Thank you Chairman Mao for once again trying to define the discussion. Unfortunately, yet again, you're wrong. There is no reason why Weeden can't step in and be an NFL starter in his rookie year. Newton, Dalton, Ponder, Gabbert, take your pick- and that's just from last year. Even if he spent his first year getting acclimated, that's fine. No one- njot RGIII, Tannehill, Foles, take your pick, has Weeden's superior arm. He's by all accounts a cerebral player, outstanding leader and a great guy. Weeden's upside next year wiill be to fight for a #3 spot? Hardly. The day that he steps on an NFL field he'll already be better that Pat Devlin or JP Losman.

You consistently sell Weeden short, due to your age bias and quite frankly, I doubt that you've watched enough of him to have a firm opinion, or maybe rating QBs isn't one of your fortes. I'll say it again- the fact that you rated Landry Jones ahead of Weeden, especially after watching thm play head to head, tells me all that I need to know about your rating of QBs. An I could care less how Kiper, our dear Walter from Walter Football or anyone else has the QBs rated- the tape don't lie. You clearly have no idea how good Brandon Weeden is.

Why I am Mao Tse Tung? Could he evaluate football talent?

Hayden Fox
01-24-2012, 03:19 PM
I think the Fins will go with a pass rusher at 8 or 9...especially if the team goes to a 4-3. Do people think Coples will be there? Ironically enough, the Panthers could use a player like him too. Could be a big coin flip. Is Upshaw a pure 3-4 OLB or not?

IF Coples is off the board, what is of value later in the draft to be watching this week? I think we would go with an explosive receiving threat at 8 or 9 if no pass rusher is there.

Let me hear what people think.

rrrrphin
01-24-2012, 03:27 PM
some Tuesday notes:

http://www.optimumscouting.com/draft/articles/2012-senior-bowl-tuesday-north-practice-notes.html

ChambersWI
01-24-2012, 03:38 PM
I'll just put this in here cause Russell Wilson is in the Senior Bowl

A little fact to cosider is that the Wisconsin OL is bigger than all but 3 NFL OL's and is practically identical in size to the Green Bay Packers OL.

Wilson played in a pro style offense, so I think his height issue isn't that big of a deal.

finsfanjay13
01-24-2012, 03:40 PM
I haven't been following closely, so I'll trust the judgment of those here:

Who have been the most surprising (hype as a measurement?)
Who have been the most underwhelming (hype as a measurement?)
If you could choose one player from each position, who would it be?

jim1
01-24-2012, 03:41 PM
I think the Fins will go with a pass rusher at 8 or 9...especially if the team goes to a 4-3. Do people think Coples will be there? Ironically enough, the Panthers could use a player like him too. Could be a big coin flip. Is Upshaw a pure 3-4 OLB or not?

IF Coples is off the board, what is of value later in the draft to be watching this week? I think we would go with an explosive receiving threat at 8 or 9 if no pass rusher is there.

Let me hear what people think.

The whole issue of that 8 or 9 pick is problematic. As to WR, I like Michael Floyd. Alshon Jefrfey is ok, but he's in the mold of, from what I've seen, Barandon Marshall but slower and less quick. Just my observations there, not sure. Floyd is solid, but no burner. I still like Joe Adams, and I reject the notion that he's a duplicate of Clyde Gates- I still have high hopes for Gates btw, but he sure does need to show more. But Adams is a burner and looks WAY quicker to me, will blow away Gates on returns, too.

The point is, what do you do with that pick? Is Michael Floyd a reach there? My guess is yes- not a huge rerach, but a reach. Courtney Upshaw- he's fine, but I'd rather draft O. So who do you take? I'd be all for a trade down, but I'm still thinking David DeCastro, for need, value, and because he's just a stud, a rare OG prospect. And if my personal favorite Brandon Weeden isn't there or we do get say a Peyton Manning or Matt Flynn, then I'm looking really hard at Coby Fleener in the 2nd rd.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 04:00 PM
I think the Fins will go with a pass rusher at 8 or 9...especially if the team goes to a 4-3. Do people think Coples will be there? Ironically enough, the Panthers could use a player like him too. Could be a big coin flip. Is Upshaw a pure 3-4 OLB or not?

IF Coples is off the board, what is of value later in the draft to be watching this week? I think we would go with an explosive receiving threat at 8 or 9 if no pass rusher is there.

Let me hear what people think.

I too think right now that a Quinton Coples would be the strongest bet, unless there's a trade down. All the talk about moving to a 4-3, that fits with taking Coples. I'm sold on Quinton as a prospect. I think that's a good top 10 pick.

I don't think Courtney Upshaw or Melvin Ingram will end up Dolphins. I strongly doubt it. Ireland is a prototype guy, taught by Parcells. They don't fit the prototypes. I don't agree with it, but I don't see Ireland taking either guy as high as we're talking about. He might consider them much lower, like the 2nd round...but they won't last that long. At least, Upshaw won't. Ingram I'm not so sure.

I don't believe the Panthers are a threat to take Coples. They're very happy with Greg Hardy and Charles Johnson. They gave Johnson a big contract and Hardy is an excellent Defensive End. That area is fine for them. They need secondary, need a wide receiver, need a defensive tackle, need help at linebacker depending on which players they let go...defensive end is one of the last on the list.

hooshoops
01-24-2012, 05:12 PM
if it's 43 i'm down with coples...imo our biggest comp for coples is what i've been sayin all along if its not qb in jax which it doesn't appear to be even though imo they should be looking that way its 43 de...ie coples

i agree with ck that i don't think ireland will use a top 10 pick on upshaw or ingram due to height...i just think he'll be a stickler...not that i'd consider ingram in the top 10 anyways...

most disappointing guy for me yesterday at least off what little i saw was dennard...for me at least

hooshoops
01-24-2012, 05:18 PM
Count me among the people having a hard time being impressed with Mike Adams. To me he's not a structurally sound player, more of a waist bender than not, reaches a lot, doesn't play compact or with good balance, and plays far too soft most of the time. His body reminds me a little of Jah Reid from UCF but Reid had better natural pad level, a better back and better knee bend. He plays more like James Brewer in that he's huge and can move pretty well, but Brewer was soft as a wad of cookie dough and not overly effective.

i agree with the lack of strength part...i'm not sure i agree with the rest of it however...but frankly i only got to see what 4 reps in one on ones....and he's not someone i've payed much attention to this year...

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 05:43 PM
It's really too bad because Upshaw is a BEAST and he's showing it at Senior Bowl practices according to what I've heard.

But Coples is also a beast and he's also showing it.

Brandon Weeden buzz is reaching a crescendo right now. He's killing these practices. He's head and shoulders better than all the QBs in Mobile this week, and that's not me talking that's people down there.

Slimm can talk about how it's never the guy that dominates in Mobile or All Star settings but I don't think that's really true. I just don't agree with that. That's not been my experience tracking at all. There's a difference between sort of a muddy competition where one guy looks better one day, another guy another day, maybe a different guy ends up looking good in the game...and a guy going out there and DOMINATING. Last year, that QB situation was absolutely muddy. Was it Kaepernick that was the best? Some said Locker. Some said it was Ponder. Stanzi had a good day here and there. Nobody knew. Only thing agreed upon was Ponder had the best game. Same was true of Pat White's Senior Bowl appearance. He got the MVP of the game, but he did his damage running the ball. He wasn't really creating a ton of buzz during the week.

From what I heard, Joe Flacco dominated Shrine practices. Not muddy, not kinda good, not good on Tuesday but bad other days, dominated. Lots of buzz. Same with Phil Rivers at the Senior Bowl, absolutely dominated. Same with Carson Palmer at the Senior Bowl. Same with Jay Cutler, tons of buzz, rocketed up the draft boards during senior bowl practice week.

It's not perfect, but it's meaningful.

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 06:00 PM
I see. So disagreeing with you and pointing out the obvious holes in your logic = "being a douchebag". Got it. Nice discussion.

a)You didn't point out any flaws in the logic. Scouts are asking the same question. Just because you have a man crush on Weeden doesn't mean he's going to be in the Brady, Manning, Brees, Palmer category. b)The douche bag comment is in reference to twisting the meaning of my statement. You're intelligent enough to know that.

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 06:07 PM
I don't believe the Panthers are a threat to take Coples. They're very happy with Greg Hardy and Charles Johnson. They gave Johnson a big contract and Hardy is an excellent Defensive End. That area is fine for them. They need secondary, need a wide receiver, need a defensive tackle, need help at linebacker depending on which players they let go...defensive end is one of the last on the list.

You can add OT to the top of their needs list. Jordan Gross is 34 & Jeff Otah has only played four games the previous two years & whose career may be over due to multiple surgeries on his left knee & back issues.

TedSlimmJr
01-24-2012, 06:11 PM
Brandon Weeden was always going to be the best QB in Mobile this week. I fail to realize why that's a revelation. Especially in this setting. Weeden can flat out spin the football, I don't know anyone that said he couldn't.

Not to mention, he's competing against QB's that were always either completely undraftable in my opinion (Kellen Moore, etc.) or sytem QB's like Nick Foles who's always had trouble pulling the trigger. Ryan Lindley has accuracy issues and is just a streaky quarterback in general. Russell Wilson is a 5'10" quarterback who'll probably make a roster somewhere and might make a decent 5th/6th round pick. Kirk Cousins is going to fool a lot of people down in Mobile this week. His decision making in games and penchant for throwing into the worse coverages possible against good defenses is there over the past 3 years for anyone that took the time to watch.

As I said before, it's just an underwhelming group at the Senior Bowl this year in general outside of the defensive line prospects, and a few good players sprinkled in here and there at RB, TE, LB and DB.



Relax. We all know how much you love Brandon Weeden. It's perfectly clear. We get to find out how good all these guys are going to be in the NFL where Big-12 defenses don't exist.

He's a good quarterback prospect. What exactly is it that you want us to do?

LouPhinFan
01-24-2012, 06:15 PM
A thought on Weeden's age and career length:

I recently read and article where Tom Brady stated that he wanted to play until he's 40. Trent Dilfer went on to say that usually the first thing that goes with a QB's age is his legs. He can't get his legs moving to drive the ball like a QB should. Brady is working to keep his legs in top shape so he can play at a reasonable high level until the age of 40.

Weeden doesn't have the wear on his legs that a usual college QB does because he spent a few years in baseball. Who's to say that Weeden can't play until he's 40? Assuming he's your starter this year (not out of the question) then if he plays until he's 40 then that's around 10 years as a franchise QB. Is that any different than drafting a 22 year old, developing him for 2 years and then having him playing until 36 or 37?

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 06:24 PM
Brandon Weeden was always going to be the best QB in Mobile this week. I fail to realize why that's a revelation. Especially in this setting. Weeden can flat out spin the football, I don't know anyone that said he couldn't.

Not to mention, he's competing against QB's that were always either completely undraftable in my opinion (Kellen Moore, etc.) or sytem QB's like Nick Foles who's always had trouble pulling the trigger. Ryan Lindley has accuracy issues and is just a streaky quarterback in general. Russell Wilson is a 5'10" quarterback who'll probably make a roster somewhere and might make a decent 5th/6th round pick. Kirk Cousins is going to fool a lot of people down in Mobile this week. His decision making in games and penchant for throwing into the worse coverages possible against good defenses is there over the past 3 years for anyone that took the time to watch.

As I said before, it's just an underwhelming group at the Senior Bowl this year in general outside of the defensive line prospects, and a few good players sprinkled in here and there at RB, TE, LB and DB.



Relax. We all know how much you love Brandon Weeden. It's perfectly clear. We get to find out how good all these guys are going to be in the NFL where Big-12 defenses don't exist.

He's a good quarterback prospect. What exactly is it that you want us to do?

I didn't realize this was a message board that consists of only two people and therefore if I'm just going to say something you agree with I shouldn't bother. There ARE other people here, ya know. They don't all agree with yours and my opinion on Weeden.

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------


A thought on Weeden's age and career length:

I recently read and article where Tom Brady stated that he wanted to play until he's 40. Trent Dilfer went on to say that usually the first thing that goes with a QB's age is his legs. He can't get his legs moving to drive the ball like a QB should. Brady is working to keep his legs in top shape so he can play at a reasonable high level until the age of 40.

Weeden doesn't have the wear on his legs that a usual college QB does because he spent a few years in baseball. Who's to say that Weeden can't play until he's 40? Assuming he's your starter this year (not out of the question) then if he plays until he's 40 then that's around 10 years as a franchise QB. Is that any different than drafting a 22 year old, developing him for 2 years and then having him playing until 36 or 37?

Good point.

hooshoops
01-24-2012, 06:24 PM
yeah i think its fair to say that when tannehill went down brandon weeden was gonna be the run away best looking qb at the senior bowl...i expected more from lindley and i expected to hear about his rocket arm but weedens done in this setting pretty much what most expected...show off that arm and the fact that he can make every throw in the nfl...i still think he's not getting into round 1 though despite all the momentum...i just can't get over the age keeping him out of contention for the first round...but thats just me...pick 50-75 imo

TedSlimmJr
01-24-2012, 06:28 PM
Just for the record (again)... The age issue has never really been a huge one for me. If Weeden can last 8 years, he's already played roughly 2.5 times longer than the average NFL career.

I don't completely brush it off as a non-factor like his fanboys, but it's not what my immediate concern is regarding Weeden.

I have trouble selling myself on Big-12 quarterbacks, period.


Brandon Weeden is a good quarterback prospect. As a matter of fact, there's not a Big-12 QB I've liked more than Weeden... and that includes "Jesus in Cleats" himself.

I'd look at him if he's there when I go on the clock in the 2nd round. That's the extent of my enthusiasm for Weeden... and I think it's fair.

Harry_Bagpipe
01-24-2012, 06:43 PM
Easily and by far the best thread on FH right now. Keep up the good work guys

jim1
01-24-2012, 06:52 PM
Just for the record (again)... The age issue has never really been a huge one for me. If Weeden can last 8 years, he's already played roughly 2.5 times longer than the average NFL career.

I don't completely brush it off as a non-factor like his fanboys, but it's not what my immediate concern is regarding Weeden.

I have trouble selling myself on Big-12 quarterbacks, period.


Brandon Weeden is a good quarterback prospect. As a matter of fact, there's not a Big-12 QB I've liked more than Weeden... and that includes "Jesus in Cleats" himself.

I'd look at him if he's there when I go on the clock in the 2nd round. That's the extent of my enthusiasm for Weeden... and I think it's fair.

What does Weeden being a Big 12 QB have to do with anything? That seems like part of a an unimaginative methodology for rating Quarterbacks. Same as the "Tedford school" argument, on e that now has that produced one of the top 3 QBs in the league- Aaron Rodgers. I think that Weeden should be judged on his own talent and merits, plain and simple.

ckparrothead
01-24-2012, 07:05 PM
I don't recall ever saying the age is a non-factor. In fact I've gone to great lengths to try and accurately frame and quantify exactly what kind of factor it shoudl be in your grading. If I were just a "fanboy" saying it's not a factor, I'd never have done any of that.

I think Slimm has the right of it, otherwise, talking about Brandon Weeden's being in the Big 12. TALENT should always be the first and foremost question in your mind. The age runs a far second. It's a factor, but not as big a deal as MOST people are making of it.

Harry_Bagpipe
01-24-2012, 07:12 PM
What does Weeden being a Big 12 QB have to do with anything? That seems like part of a lazy and unimaginative methodology for rating Quarterbacks. Same as the lame "Tedford school" argument that produce one of the top 3 QBs in the league- Aaron Rodgers.

If memory serves me well, Alabama QBs have sucked wang for quite some time- Brodie Coyle, Jay something or another, the guy who the Jets drafted late last year, whateve his name is- I can't think of good Alabama QBs since Namath and Stabler.

But- if a really good Alabama QB came down the pipe- more power to him, I'd draft him in a heart beat. At Georgia Eric Zeir and that lefty they had, whatever his name is, sucking has no bearing on Matt Stafford being a stud- these school and conference theories as to QB rating strike me as foolish. I would have been THRILLED to see Weeden get a shot at LSU in the title game- they were one play, one yard short against ISU from making it happen, and that's a shame.

I'd be happy for you and Alabama winning the whole thing, by the way, but as a south Florida resident, the sheer douchebaggery of Nick Saban, the stench of that little weasel, lingers still. He's done a great job, no doubt, but only until he blows out of Tuscaloosa, too, will I be able to root for Alabama. It's not just how he blew out of town, it's that he's such an arrogant little piss ant of an ahole. Great coach, crappy human being.

Ugh.....i really like what Slimm offers to this forum. He is one of the best regulars in terms of draft analysis but you probably have just turned this thread into an extra five pages of an alabama pissing contest

jim1
01-24-2012, 07:25 PM
Ugh.....i really like what Slimm offers to this forum. He is one of the best regulars in terms of draft analysis but you probably have just turned this thread into an extra five pages of an alabama pissing contest

That's fair enough, I was ranting as per Saban, I'll modify it.

TedSlimmJr
01-24-2012, 07:32 PM
What does Weeden being a Big 12 QB have to do with anything? That seems like part of a lazy and unimaginative methodology for rating Quarterbacks. Same as the lame "Tedford school" argument that produce one of the top 3 QBs in the league- Aaron Rodgers.

If memory serves me well, Alabama QBs have sucked wang for quite some time- Brodie Coyle, Jay something or another, the guy who the Jets drafted late last year, whateve his name is- I can't think of good Alabama QBs since Namath and Stabler.

But- if a really good Alabama QB came down the pipe- more power to him, I'd draft him in a heart beat. At Georgia Eric Zeir and that lefty they had, whatever his name is, sucking has no bearing on Matt Stafford being a stud- these school and conference theories as to QB rating strike me as foolish. I would have been THRILLED to see Weeden get a shot at LSU in the title game- they were one play, one yard short against ISU from making it happen, and that's a shame.

I'd be happy for you and Alabama winning the whole thing, by the way, but as a south Florida resident, the sheer douchebaggery of Nick Saban, the stench of that little weasel, lingers still. He's done a great job, no doubt, but only until he blows out of Tuscaloosa, too, will I be able to root for Alabama. It's not just how he blew out of town, it's that he's such an arrogant little piss ant of an ahole. Great coach, crappy human being.


Alabama QB's have nothing to do with it. Alabama's brand of football is structured around a dominant, suffocating defense to complement a powerful running game. It's been that way for 100 years, and it'll never change. The offense at Alabama won't ever run through the quarterback position like it does in conferences like the Big-12, and to be quite honest, we wouldn't have it any other way. It's a tried and true method. Football isn't played in Tuscaloosa for the purpose of putting quarterbacks in the NFL. Nobody here cares about things like that.

Offenses in the Big-12 are run through the quarterback position, because the conference doesn't play defense. Every conference has their own unique identity. The Big-12's identity is finesse spread offenses/bubble screens/soft coverage in the secondary and no defense. The Big-12 is essentially C-USA with bigger stadiums and deeper alumni pockets.

The conference has never produced a legitimate NFL franchise quarterback since it's inception despite running the offenses through the quarterback position. That's not a methodology for evaluating quarterbacks, that's just a fact. When Big-12 quarterbacks face top notch SEC defenses, they get shut down. Everytime. There's a reason the Big-12 is 0-7 against the SEC in BCS bowls.

Furthermore, Tedford didn't produce one of the top 3 QB's in the league. Aaron Rodgers had to be "de-Tedfordized" in Green Bay for 3 years before he was even developed enough to be an effective starter because of the mechanics. The only reason Rodgers didn't bust like all the Tedford QB's before him was because he wasn't thrown in the fire too early with those mechanics like all the previous Tedford busts. Aaron Rodgers was closer to being cut at one point than he was to being an starting quarterback according to the very team that drafted him.... the Green Bay Packers.

Contrary to your notion that the style of play coming from a conference that fails to produce quality backup quarterbacks in the NFL, much less quality starters, is simply ignoring the similarities and styles of play that the Big-12 is infested with. Which is system quarterback after system quarterback that produce at the same rate. No matter if they're completely undraftable QB's from Texas Tech in Mike Leach's system, or #1 overall picks and Heisman Trophy winners from Oklahoma. It boils down to a lack of knowledge and understanding of offensive concepts if you choose to ignore it.

Lastly, I'm fairly certain that Bama has enough people to root for them as it is, I don't reckon your lack of support is something we're going to notice, Jim. In fact, we'd honestly rather south Florida residents like yourself just keep doing what your doing. There's nothing better than seeing your a**es get more chapped with every crystal football Coach Saban hoists.



Back to Weeden.....

hooshoops
01-24-2012, 07:48 PM
I don't recall ever saying the age is a non-factor. In fact I've gone to great lengths to try and accurately frame and quantify exactly what kind of factor it shoudl be in your grading. If I were just a "fanboy" saying it's not a factor, I'd never have done any of that.

I think Slimm has the right of it, otherwise, talking about Brandon Weeden's being in the Big 12. TALENT should always be the first and foremost question in your mind. The age runs a far second. It's a factor, but not as big a deal as MOST people are making of it.

if it keeps him out of the frst round its as big deal as i've ever thought it was...that's all i've ever said...that it will keep him out of round 1 imo...nothings changed from me on that point...and i've said i think its crazy to use a top 10 pick on a 28 year old qb...stand by that also...

nothing against the player but i'm not ever using a top 10 pick on a 29 year old first year qb...that's just a no go for me...and i'll be shocked if any decision maker in the nfl ever does...

jim1
01-24-2012, 09:39 PM
Alabama QB's have nothing to do with it. Alabama's brand of football is structured around a dominant, suffocating defense to complement a powerful running game. It's been that way for 100 years, and it'll never change. The offense at Alabama won't ever run through the quarterback position like it does in conferences like the Big-12, and to be quite honest, we wouldn't have it any other way. It's a tried and true method. Football isn't played in Tuscaloosa for the purpose of putting quarterbacks in the NFL. Nobody here cares about things like that.

Offenses in the Big-12 are run through the quarterback position, because the conference doesn't play defense. Every conference has their own unique identity. The Big-12's identity is finesse spread offenses/bubble screens/soft coverage in the secondary and no defense. The Big-12 is essentially C-USA with bigger stadiums and deeper alumni pockets.

The conference has never produced a legitimate NFL franchise quarterback since it's inception despite running the offenses through the quarterback position. That's not a methodology for evaluating quarterbacks, that's just a fact. When Big-12 quarterbacks face top notch SEC defenses, they get shut down. Everytime. There's a reason the Big-12 is 0-7 against the SEC in BCS bowls.

Furthermore, Tedford didn't produce one of the top 3 QB's in the league. Aaron Rodgers had to be "de-Tedfordized" in Green Bay for 3 years before he was even developed enough to be an effective starter because of the mechanics. The only reason Rodgers didn't bust like all the Tedford QB's before him was because he wasn't thrown in the fire too early with those mechanics like all the previous Tedford busts. Aaron Rodgers was closer to being cut at one point than he was to being an starting quarterback according to the very team that drafted him.... the Green Bay Packers.

Contrary to your notion that the style of play coming from a conference that fails to produce quality backup quarterbacks in the NFL, much less quality starters, is simply ignoring the similarities and styles of play that the Big-12 is infested with. Which is system quarterback after system quarterback that produce at the same rate. No matter if they're completely undraftable QB's from Texas Tech in Mike Leach's system, or #1 overall picks and Heisman Trophy winners from Oklahoma. It boils down to a lack of knowledge and understanding of offensive concepts if you choose to ignore it.

Lastly, I'm fairly certain that Bama has enough people to root for them as it is, I don't reckon your lack of support is something we're going to notice, Jim. In fact, we'd honestly rather south Florida residents like yourself just keep doing what your doing. There's nothing better than seeing your a**es get more chapped with every crystal football Coach Saban hoists.



Back to Weeden.....

First of all, as to my Saban comments- they were unnecessary and I deleted them. I always kind of liked Alabama- as to the Saban element I'll just let that be. As to Alabama and their recent and past success, more power to you. Having grown up in south Florida, I've spent plenty of time watching periods of dominance by UM, UF, FSU and the Gators, who crushed Alabama regularly if I recall correctly. The upshot of it all is that I really don't care, I was never particularly partial to any college team, it just doesn't matter to me. UF won 2 recently, the U, FSU- we've had plenty of championships that I really couldn't care less about- btw UM should have had one more but for the Ohio State fleecing. But again, no big deal, college football isn't particularly important to me. Unfortunately, because of the Saban connection, I find myself these days rooting against Alabama, but that's neither here nor there. I can assure you that Florida football fans have been equally ambivalent as to what the good people of Alabama thought of our teams over the decades of our dominance. As a side note, I did get a chance to meet Barry Krauss's parents a few times quite a few years ago, very nice people, from Pompano I believe.

As a Dolphin fan I am, by the way, very gratelfull to the Tide for Bob Baumhower, Dwight Stephenson and one of my all time favorites, Don McNeal.

As to the conferences- I'd have to revisit tape of Rodgers at Cal to see what mechanical changes, if any, have taken place. As with the Pac 10 when Elway and Aikman were there, I wouldn't judge those two guys by a lack of defense in that conference 30 years ago, nor am I disuaded froom being a huge fan of Weeden because of the same. Case Keenum, Timmy Chang, take your pick- stats do lie, some conferences to play better defense than others, I get that.

RG III lights it up in Weeden's conference- I like him, but I far from love him. I love Weeden's game, and I don't need to see him play an SEC team to confirm that. Everything clicks, starting with the absolutely stellar arm, the power, the accuracy, the size, the deceptive mobility, the character, the mental comprehension and approach to the game (as he's considered basically another offensive coach out there from what I gather).

It just works for me, from his quck feet and smooth movement in the pocket, his decision making, take your pick. It might not look quite as easy if he were playing in the SEC, I'll grant you that for sure, but Weeden's qualities would still shine through. No QB that I've seen in the SEC can touch him, with the possible exception of Tyler Wilson, who I like very much.

I would guess that the Senior Bowl will be a great opportunity for Weeden to dispell some of those "weak conference opposing defense" concerns, and my guess is that he'll do just fine. If I recall correctly Josh Freeman played in Weeden's conference- I like but don't love him, but seriously, there are only so many franchise QBs to go around. Peyton might be done, I like Matt Stafford quite a bit, Brady and Brees are Big 10 guys, but when all is said and done I'm not terribly concerned about the conferences in question- I'm concerned about the player. There are plenty of Chad Hennes for every Tom Brady, that's just how it goes. The conference doesn't make the player- an obvious assessment no doubt, but nonetheless true. For better or worse I'm jusging Weeden by what I see from him, not by the conference that he plays in. And what I see is a supremely talented QB who will be a steal, due to his age, in the second round if in fact he lasts that long.

So congrats to the Tide, they deserve it, and it is quite a feat for the state of Alabama to have both UA and AU win titles back to back, something that the people of Alabama can be proud of for sure. Saban has done one hell of a job over there, and despite my dislike for the guy, no one can take that away from him.

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 11:38 PM
Slimm, CK, or anyone else for that matter, have any of you seen or heard anything about Sean Spence during either practice? It's not necessarily a good or bad thing I guess.

hooshoops
01-24-2012, 11:44 PM
yeah buddy...it is night and day the difference in the talent levels of the south roster vs the north imo...there are some really nice looking prospects on this south squad...coples ingram upshaw as advertised in one on one rush drills...ingram with a sick spin move on one...coples showing nice strength and more importantly solid hand use to get off the block in his pass rush...upshaw bull rush and then uses his hands to toss the lineman to the ground...cordy glenn massive guy with pretty damn good feet...joe adams looks damn good...there's some corner here named bentley who can play...laradius green the te separating out of his breaks...i'm liking what i see there...

sean spence looks awfully light to me...i'm thinking he's not a 3 down player in the pros... he looks like lovante david size wise but i think david is a much more instinctual lb...i like david a lot except for that size

south squad should roll on saturday...this is the kind of talent i was hoping to see

SMadison29
01-24-2012, 11:58 PM
sean spence looks awfully light to me...i'm thinking he's not a 3 down player in the pros... he looks like lovante david size wise but i think david is a much more instinctual lb...i like david a lot except for that size

They are pretty much the same size & both played for Miami Northwestern during their championship run in high school. That's surprising, Spence is probably one of the smartest college LBs I've seen play, true leader, knows everyone's assignments, great character, good tackler.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:04 AM
i see real hand explosion and power on contact with upshaw coples and ingram...when they hit you they rock you back on contact...got to like that...best get off i see is upshaw followed by ingram and then coples...coples is just not all that first step quick off the snap...none of these guys imo have that elite get off of the ball...but man do they all pack a power punch on contact...

the concern for me with coples is because of that imo for a top 10 pick slow get off is he gonna be able to give you double digit sacks as a pass rusher...

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:09 AM
They are pretty much the same size & both played for Miami Northwestern during their championship run in high school. That's surprising, Spence is probably one of the smartest college LBs I've seen play, true leader, knows everyone's assignments, great character, good tackler.

you guys all love your canes...spence to me is a rocked up safety trying to play lb...great athlete but i don't think he's gonna be a read and diagnose guy at the next level...package specific as in nickle lb and specials guy imo...i wouldn't use a top 3 round pick on him i know that for any scheme...and if i'm a 34 i wouldn't use a pick on him period...unless it was for specials only and that would have to be very late

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:18 AM
coples is blowing stuff up with his penetration in 11 on 11 drills...he's walking guys 2 yards into the backfield and just clogging things up...the dlines are dominant

i think nick foles has got a bit too much check down in him personally...throw the damn ball down the field every once in a while...

this baylor center/guard blake sits down pretty well in pass pro and has strength in his hands...i like what i've seen there

MiamiDolphin618
01-25-2012, 12:22 AM
coples is blowing stuff up with his penetration in 11 on 11 drills...he's walking guys 2 yards into the backfield and just clogging things up...the dlines are dominant


If Coples keeps it up he might not make it to our pick.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:23 AM
mayock just said weeden had a torn labrum as a baseball player and never had surgery...don't shoot the messenger but i don't think torn labrums heal by themselves

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:25 AM
If Coples keeps it up he might not make it to our pick.

he's getting his arms extended and just walking people into the backfield...i just wish he had a more explosive get off at the snap...it's the only thing i see missing...he's freakin body beautiful i'll tell ya that...

MiamiDolphin618
01-25-2012, 12:26 AM
he's getting his arms extended and just walking people into the backfield...i just wish he had a more explosive get off at the snap...it's the only thing i see missing...
True...top 10 pick I want a double digit sack guy. But then again...he could still be a double digit sack guy.

bigvince75
01-25-2012, 12:27 AM
yeah buddy...it is night and day the difference in the talent levels of the south roster vs the north imo...there are some really nice looking prospects on this south squad...coples ingram upshaw as advertised in one on one rush drills...ingram with a sick spin move on one...coples showing nice strength and more importantly solid hand use to get off the block in his pass rush...upshaw bull rush and then uses his hands to toss the lineman to the ground...cordy glenn massive guy with pretty damn good feet...joe adams looks damn good...there's some corner here named bentley who can play...laradius green the te separating out of his breaks...i'm liking what i see there...

sean spence looks awfully light to me...i'm thinking he's not a 3 down player in the pros... he looks like lovante david size wise but i think david is a much more instinctual lb...i like david a lot except for that size

south squad should roll on saturday...this is the kind of talent i was hoping to see

incredibly fast, athletic and smart, but just a tad too small imo.

reminds me of Rennie Curran from a few years ago. I think he could be great in Tampa-2 defense.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:29 AM
incredibly fast, athletic and smart, but just a tad too small imo.

reminds me of Rennie Curran from a few years ago. I think he could be great in Tampa-2 defense.

i was thinking of the guy who went to ga i think it was and plays undersized for baltimore im some sets at lb...name escapes me...but even that guy had a better body for contact at lb than spence...he's too small imo...i bet he'd be a demon specials though...but i bet he'd struggle majorly getting off blocks or holding up at the poa at lb...that body is gonna keep him on the board into day 3 imo...

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:30 AM
True...top 10 pick I want a double digit sack guy. But then again...he could still be a double digit sack guy.

he could with his strength on contact...no doubt about that imo...if he did have that explosive get off though i think he'd be a lock all pro as long as his motor ran hot all the time...

bigvince75
01-25-2012, 12:31 AM
i was thinking of the guy who went to ga i think it was and plays undersized for baltimore im some sets at lb...name escapes me...but even that guy had a better body for contact at lb than spence...he's too small imo...i bet he'd be a demon specials though...but i bet he'd struggle majorly getting off blocks or holding up at the poa

I think you're thinking of Dannell Ellerbe.

Spence will probably develop into a great nickel LB and maybe start on some defenses that like undersized LBs (Colts, Bucs).

bigvince75
01-25-2012, 12:33 AM
2 of my favorite LB prospects in this draft; Lavonte David and Sean Spence, just happen to be 2 of the most undersized players at their position in this draft class.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:33 AM
I think you're thinking of Dannell Ellerbe.

Spence will probably develop into a great nickel LB and maybe start on some defenses that like undersized LBs (Colts, Bucs).

if i was one of those teams i would take david over him all day long...david to me is a perfect fit for the colts with the way they like their lbs

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 12:33 AM
First of all, as to my Saban comments- they were unnecessary and I deleted them. I always kind of liked Alabama- as to the Saban element I'll just let that be. As to Alabama and their recent and past success, more power to you. Having grown up in south Florida, I've spent plenty of time watching periods of dominance by UM, UF, FSU and the Gators, who crushed Alabama regularly if I recall correctly. The upshot of it all is that I really don't care, I was never particularly partial to any college team, it just doesn't matter to me. UF won 2 recently, the U, FSU- we've had plenty of championships that I really couldn't care less about- btw UM should have had one more but for the Ohio State fleecing. But again, no big deal, college football isn't particularly important to me. Unfortunately, because of the Saban connection, I find myself these days rooting against Alabama, but that's neither here nor there. I can assure you that Florida football fans have been equally ambivalent as to what the good people of Alabama thought of our teams over the decades of our dominance. As a side note, I did get a chance to meet Barry Krauss's parents a few times quite a few years ago, very nice people, from Pompano I believe.

As a Dolphin fan I am, by the way, very gratelfull to the Tide for Bob Baumhower, Dwight Stephenson and one of my all time favorites, Don McNeal.

As to the conferences- I'd have to revisit tape of Rodgers at Cal to see what mechanical changes, if any, have taken place. As with the Pac 10 when Elway and Aikman were there, I wouldn't judge those two guys by a lack of defense in that conference 30 years ago, nor am I disuaded froom being a huge fan of Weeden because of the same. Case Keenum, Timmy Chang, take your pick- stats do lie, some conferences to play better defense than others, I get that.

RG III lights it up in Weeden's conference- I like him, but I far from love him. I love Weeden's game, and I don't need to see him play an SEC team to confirm that. Everything clicks, starting with the absolutely stellar arm, the power, the accuracy, the size, the deceptive mobility, the character, the mental comprehension and approach to the game (as he's considered basically another offensive coach out there from what I gather).

It just works for me, from his quck feet and smooth movement in the pocket, his decision making, take your pick. It might not look quite as easy if he were playing in the SEC, I'll grant you that for sure, but Weeden's qualities would still shine through. No QB that I've seen in the SEC can touch him, with the possible exception of Tyler Wilson, who I like very much.

I would guess that the Senior Bowl will be a great opportunity for Weeden to dispell some of those "weak conference opposing defense" concerns, and my guess is that he'll do just fine. If I recall correctly Josh Freeman played in Weeden's conference- I like but don't love him, but seriously, there are only so many franchise QBs to go around. Peyton might be done, I like Matt Stafford quite a bit, Brady and Brees are Big 10 guys, but when all is said and done I'm not terribly concerned about the conferences in question- I'm concerned about the player. There are plenty of Chad Hennes for every Tom Brady, that's just how it goes. The conference doesn't make the player- an obvious assessment no doubt, but nonetheless true. For better or worse I'm jusging Weeden by what I see from him, not by the conference that he plays in. And what I see is a supremely talented QB who will be a steal, due to his age, in the second round if in fact he lasts that long.

So congrats to the Tide, they deserve it, and it is quite a feat for the state of Alabama to have both UA and AU win titles back to back, something that the people of Alabama can be proud of for sure. Saban has done one hell of a job over there, and despite my dislike for the guy, no one can take that away from him.


Alabama has never worried about any of UM's, UF's, or FSU's success. If it wasn't for an Alabama guy to begin with (Howard Schnellenberger) the University of Miami wouldn't even have a football team. An Alabama guy built that program from scratch and saved it. Schnellenberger was Bear's OC at Bama, and learned from the best program builder there's ever been as to how to build a winner from scratch. I'm old enough to remember when Miami was nothing but homecoming fodder for the real blue-bloods of college football. We scheduled Miami for the first ever televised game in the history of Bryant-Denny Stadium... a 30-0 beatdown of the Canes. I believe Bama is somewhere around 14-3 all time vs. Miami. The point is, Miami fans need not ever forget that a Bama coach is why they ever became relevant in the first place.

Same for FSU. Bobby Bowden is an Alabama guy (Birmingham) born and breed. His dream job was always to coach at Alabama. Bobby Bowden grew up an Alabama fan, and still is. Still comes to the games as a matter of fact.


As for the mechanics Rodgers had to be "de-Tedfordized" from, the most basic were in the setup and delivery. The way he held the football way up by his right ear, which was always a Tedford trademark. It was an advantage in Tedford's system, but a hinderance in the NFL. They had to break him of it. There's an article on it around here somewhere that I posted in another thread. I'll find it and insert it here....

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/136856133.html
(http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/136856133.html)


Alabama has won at least one national championship in every single decade since the 1960's, and have already started off a 6th straight decade with another via the pummeling of LSU a few weeks ago. Alabama football stands on it's own above all else. I probably don't need to speak on it. Even I'm not qualified to put the mecca of college football into proper perspective, and I've been a part of it for almost 50 years.

Big-10 quarterbacks have nothing to do with this either, as the Big-10 has been producing legitimate NFL quarterbacks for over half a century. Along with the Pac-10 and SEC. Hell, your boy Tim Tebow is the worst passer to come out of the SEC in years, yet even he somehow gets it done in the NFL better than any QB the Big-12 has ever produced. I wasn't lumping in Big-12 quarterbacks, or the lackthereof....I was singling it out. Josh Freeman isn't a legitimate franchise quarterback, or even very close to it. I had that argument last year.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:39 AM
i like vick ballard...i think someones gonna steal something there if they get that kid in the 4th round...217 lbs...yes indeed i like what i see there

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 12:48 AM
Slimm, CK, or anyone else for that matter, have any of you seen or heard anything about Sean Spence during either practice? It's not necessarily a good or bad thing I guess.


Not much. I watched him a little bit in drills earlier where they had him covering the RB's catching passes out of the backfield, etc. Spence whiffed at the LOS and was easily roasted for a touchdown.

I've always liked Spence despite his lack of size, but with the understanding that he's a niche player, and won't be a fit for every team. He hits a lot harder than 228 pounds. He's just raw as a turnip like all the talent that comes out of Miami over the past several years. I think he wants to be coached up, and will at the very least make a good special teams player.

Not as good as his former high school teammate Lavonte David though. I've had him pegged as a stud since last year. They're very similar in size and skillset, David is just further developed at this point in reading his keys, and is the more sound tackler.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:50 AM
imo if david was 15 lbs heavier we'd be talkin about him as a top 20 pick...

bigvince75
01-25-2012, 01:03 AM
imo if david was 15 lbs heavier we'd be talkin about him as a top 20 pick...

pretty much. I want to see if he can bulk up in time for the draft.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 01:08 AM
I haven't been following closely, so I'll trust the judgment of those here:

Who have been the most surprising (hype as a measurement?)
Who have been the most underwhelming (hype as a measurement?)
If you could choose one player from each position, who would it be?


These are all good questions.

I wasn't surprised by anyone measuring in substantially bigger than what I thought. However, I was a little surprised to see Joe Adams and DeQuan Menzie both measure in under 5'11".

It's hard for me to pick just one guy that I like at every position, but if I had to pick, I'd pick the same one's that I would've picked going in.


QB - Weeden / Lindley

RB - Doug Martin / Vick Ballard

WR - Jeff Fuller / Joe Adams / T.J. Graham

TE - Egnew / Ladarius Green

OT - Matt McCants / Jeff Allen

OG - Kevin Zeitler / Will Blackwell

C - Brewster / Phillip Blake

DE - Coples / Ingram

DT - Ta'amu

3-4 Rush LB - Upshaw / Cam Johnson

4-3 LB - Lavonte David / Keenan Robinson

CB - Casey Hayward / Janoris Jenkins / Jamell Fleming

S - Iloka / Brandon Taylor

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 01:15 AM
coples just said something interesting...he said in 2010 when he had his 12 sack season he played on the left side and in 2011 the coaches asked him to play on the right...he said there was a transition there...i would think if he came here to play 43 end for us we'd line him up over the right side at least on early downs and then maybe in obvious passing downs let him power rush from the left side to get wake and his get off against right tackles...

that brewster guy has a nasty streak to him...got to like that

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 01:17 AM
mayock just said weeden had a torn labrum as a baseball player and never had surgery...don't shoot the messenger but i don't think torn labrums heal by themselves

Brandon Weeden himself says that's not true. Never tore anything, he says. He contacted me privately to let me know that because I said the same thing Mayock did.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 01:19 AM
Brandon Weeden himself says that's not true. Never tore anything, he says. He contacted me privately to let me know that because I said the same thing Mayock did.

well then mayock just told a fib...or weeden did to you...one or the other...

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 01:22 AM
Honest opinion of Sean Spence? I think if you draft him you're going to get the same player as Zack Brown for a fraction of the draft cost (in terms of points). Flame away. That's what I think.

---------- Post added at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 AM ----------


well then mayock just told a fib...or weeden did to you...one or the other...

I'm gonna go with Brandon on this one...if you tear a labrum there are things you just can't do.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 01:30 AM
am i the only one here who thinks irelands gonna be very interested in audie cole??? you just know he loves that size...and frankly after what i saw from cole in the bowl game i'm interested in that kid as well...

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 01:47 AM
I'll have to look at the bowl game but I just see a guy that tops out at a Scott Fujita, who coincidentally I believe Jeff Ireland does have some experience with. Cole just doesn't have that killer trigger and instinct, that physicality about him. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he showed it in the bowl game for pretty much the first time ever. But when I watch him I can't ever shake the feeling of disappointment.

Awsi Dooger
01-25-2012, 02:47 AM
'
As for the mechanics Rodgers had to be "de-Tedfordized" from, the most basic were in the setup and delivery. The way he held the football way up by his right ear, which was always a Tedford trademark. It was an advantage in Tedford's system, but a hinderance in the NFL. They had to break him of it. There's an article on it around here somewhere that I posted in another thread. I'll find it and insert it here....

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/136856133.html
(http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/136856133.html)
Alabama has won at least one national championship in every single decade since the 1960's, and have already started off a 6th straight decade with another via the pummeling of LSU a few weeks ago. Alabama football stands on it's own above all else. I probably don't need to speak on it. Even I'm not qualified to put the mecca of college football into proper perspective, and I've been a part of it for almost 50 years.

I attended a Cal vs. USC game in the Coliseum when Rodgers was a senior. He had that weird ball position with the tip out, and an awkward delivery as a result, with restricted velocity. I remember likening it to a flawed golf swing, the dreaded flying elbow. In spring '05 I was new to Finheaven and argued against taking Rodgers with the second pick as a consequence of that game, and Tedford's poor mechanics. He broke some type of completion percentage record against USC but it was otherwise a ghastly performance. Cal had open receivers downfield all day but Rodgers didn't dare attempt any of the throws. Sorority girls not far from me in the stands were literally laughing at him as a result.

This season, when Green Bay marched toward unbeaten, I often thought back to that game, in disbelief that it was the same guy. Merrill Hodge also ripped Rodgers leading up to the draft, based on all the dink and dunk passes against USC. It's the most remarkable transformation I've ever seen.

I don't know about Weeden. My base impression is that one of the great piano players in the world doesn't spend a half dozen or more years thinking he's a ballet dancer. But that's the way I think, what would be true 55-60% of the time, if not considerably higher, based on a wide scope and without fretting variables specific to the case. Tomorrow I can apply college basketball systems I discovered in the '80s and that still work wonderfully. But thankfully I'm not trying to hit 100%, unlike general managers who might draft one quarterback in the first round during their career. Imagine being a pilot and unless you bat 1.000 for life you're a corpse, and perhaps infamous. Not for me.

Bit of a low delivery and more line drive prone than my preference. But that applies to others who have thrived in the league, like Joe Theismann.

Big 12 doubts are valid, IMO, in fact underplayed. Can you imagine a quarterback with a recent Big 12 comfort zone asked to overcome a defense like the 49ers displayed last Sunday, with every underneath route blanketed and obliterated, and the quarterback battered all day? That was as close to a 2000 Ravens or 2001 Buccaneers effort as I've seen under the new rules, at least in terms of denying the short junk.

BTW, if Alabama won a national championship in the decade of the 1980s they crafted their own trophy and decided on their own criteria, which had nothing to do with performance on the field. Alabama never seriously threatened a title in that decade, other than perhaps 1989 when Miami defeated them in the Sugar Bowl rather handily, certainly worse than the final score. Alabama would not have won either poll with a victory in that game. The only wild stretch to include the '80s would be the 1979 season title which was official in the early days of 1980.

Hayden Fox
01-25-2012, 06:57 AM
As a former baseball guy, you can still throw a ball with labrum issues, but not with the velocity that Weeden does. I would say Mayock is wrong and Weeden is fine. His labrum is certainly not torn.

Because of Mayock poor Weeden will end up in a MRI machine.

jim1
01-25-2012, 07:23 AM
Alabama has never worried about any of UM's, UF's, or FSU's success. If it wasn't for an Alabama guy to begin with (Howard Schnellenberger) the University of Miami wouldn't even have a football team. An Alabama guy built that program from scratch and saved it. Schnellenberger was Bear's OC at Bama, and learned from the best program builder there's ever been as to how to build a winner from scratch. I'm old enough to remember when Miami was nothing but homecoming fodder for the real blue-bloods of college football. We scheduled Miami for the first ever televised game in the history of Bryant-Denny Stadium... a 30-0 beatdown of the Canes. I believe Bama is somewhere around 14-3 all time vs. Miami. The point is, Miami fans need not ever forget that a Bama coach is why they ever became relevant in the first place.

Same for FSU. Bobby Bowden is an Alabama guy (Birmingham) born and breed. His dream job was always to coach at Alabama. Bobby Bowden grew up an Alabama fan, and still is. Still comes to the games as a matter of fact.


As for the mechanics Rodgers had to be "de-Tedfordized" from, the most basic were in the setup and delivery. The way he held the football way up by his right ear, which was always a Tedford trademark. It was an advantage in Tedford's system, but a hinderance in the NFL. They had to break him of it. There's an article on it around here somewhere that I posted in another thread. I'll find it and insert it here....

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/136856133.html
(http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/136856133.html)


Alabama has won at least one national championship in every single decade since the 1960's, and have already started off a 6th straight decade with another via the pummeling of LSU a few weeks ago. Alabama football stands on it's own above all else. I probably don't need to speak on it. Even I'm not qualified to put the mecca of college football into proper perspective, and I've been a part of it for almost 50 years.

Big-10 quarterbacks have nothing to do with this either, as the Big-10 has been producing legitimate NFL quarterbacks for over half a century. Along with the Pac-10 and SEC. Hell, your boy Tim Tebow is the worst passer to come out of the SEC in years, yet even he somehow gets it done in the NFL better than any QB the Big-12 has ever produced. I wasn't lumping in Big-12 quarterbacks, or the lackthereof....I was singling it out. Josh Freeman isn't a legitimate franchise quarterback, or even very close to it. I had that argument last year.

I'm by no means suggesting that Josh Freeman is a franchise QB, just a guy from that conference who's done pretty well. I understand that you're singling out Weeden's conference, but that's still a non issue to me. I'm concerned with the talent of the player, period. If anything, I'd rather draft a QB from the Big 12 who's throwing all the time than an SEC run first offense. As to Tebow- while he was burying the other SEC teams he was throwing the ball a hell of a lot better than most of the other SEC QBs who were playing at the time. Jevon Snead wasn't half bad, but there are reasons why Tebow is starting in the NFL and so many other SEC QBs are out of football. I said it from day one- I studied his throwing to Harvin, Riley Cooper, etc. and he was getting it done. I still don't like a lot of his throws that I've seen in the NFL, but that's another story. Suffice it to say that the mechanics, the rhythm of his passes- look like they need more work now than when he was at UF. If you look at a pitcher like Nolan Ryan, a QB like Carson Palmer or Warren Moon- there's a weight transference, a rhythm, a sequence to it that culminates in snapping of a throw- as an imperfect metaphor I would suggest a trebuchet. Similar thing in basketball during a jump shot, generating power starting with the legs, hips, shoulders, elbows, culminating with a subtle wrist movement sending the basketball on say a 3 point arch. The point being, as many positive qualities as I do see in Tebow- good Lord, he's been bad at that in the pros. The awkwardness is striking, more than I saw at UF.

As to Tedford, good point about holding the ball by the ear, I never liked that at all. As to the rest of the argument- seems overblown to me. I never liked that stuff- making a QB hold the ball by his ear, whther or not a QB pats the ball- within reason, just let the guy throw. John Beck is a great study of mismanagement in this regard, imo. And Rodgers- I doubt that it took 3 years to get the kinks out- he had to wait for Favre to wrap it up, he could have been ready to go much sooner.

As your're an SEC guy, curious as to your thoughts on Joe Adams and Tyler Wilson. Adams just jumps off the screen, and Wilson just seems to have it I haven't seen enough to firm up an opinion, but as with Weeden, at least limilar to Weeden, I watch Wilson and it just works for me- he reeks of NFL QB potential when I've seen him play.

SMadison29
01-25-2012, 09:51 AM
mayock just said weeden had a torn labrum as a baseball player and never had surgery...don't shoot the messenger but i don't think torn labrums heal by themselves

His shoulder is a known issue, not sure if it was a torn labrum, but it's the reason he had to give up baseball. He's said that it doesn't effect how he throws a football as opposed to a baseball. His physical at the combine will be extremely important.

jim1
01-25-2012, 10:00 AM
His shoulder is a known issue, not sure if it was a torn labrum, but it's the reason he had to give up baseball. He's said that it doesn't effect how he throws a football as opposed to a baseball. His physical at the combine will be extremely important.

No one throws as well as Weeden in this QB class, period. If he's throwing pain free with that velocity and accuracy, more power to him. Elway popped an ACL in high school, never got it fixed, and rolled at Stanford and in the pros. I really hope that Weeden's shoulder issues are factored in big time by other teams, better luck for us in landing him. This guy will be a steal in the 2nd round, and highway robbery if he lasts until the 3rd. He's going to make some team very, very happy for 8-10 years imo.

SMadison29
01-25-2012, 10:03 AM
I've always liked Spence despite his lack of size, but with the understanding that he's a niche player, and won't be a fit for every team. He hits a lot harder than 228 pounds. He's just raw as a turnip like all the talent that comes out of Miami over the past several years. I think he wants to be coached up, and will at the very least make a good special teams player.

Isn't that the truth. Randy Shannon's coaching staff was horrible. He had the talent but couldn't develop anyone. Allen Bailey, Brandon Harris, Sean Spence... they all did it by being more athletic & smart. Technique & coaching was horrible. Now we have Jimmy Graham, Sam Shields, Colin McCarthy, Calais Campbell all excelling with good coaching.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 10:48 AM
And Rodgers- I doubt that it took 3 years to get the kinks out- he had to wait for Favre to wrap it up, he could have been ready to go much sooner.


Either you didn't bother to read the article, or you're just being stubborn for the sake of being argumentative. This isn't debateable.



"When it's remembered where he was earlier in his career is almost unfathomable".....

"He was brutal every time out".....

"Until his 20th and final series.... Rodgers had not generated as single point. Sixteen possessions ended with punts, two on INT's, and one on a fumble"....

"If the #2 quarterback job had been awarded based on performance in training camp and games, it would have gone to Craig Nall hands down"....

"Against the Ravens, Rodgers threw an INT, fumbled twice and was sacked 3 times"....

"As the 2006 draft drew near, Rodgers told NFL Network that he had heard the rumors of the Packers possibly selecting a QB with the #5 selection in a move that would likely end his career in Green Bay. Ted Thompson, the General Manager who had drafted Rodgers with the 24th pick the year before, didn't rule it out".....

"18 personnel men wer asked to compare Rodgers against that year's QB pool led by Matt Leinart, Vince Young, and Jay Cutler. Not only did Rodgers not draw any 1st place votes, he had only one 2nd place vote, and three 3rd place votes. Eleven scouts put him 4th, and 3 others even had him behind Brodie Croyle and Charlie Whitehurst"....

"Working against drafting a QB was the grim reality that the Packers probably wold have been looking at a 4th or 5th round pick in exchange for Rodgers"....

"Mike McCarthy preferred Alex Smith to Rodgers even before the 2005 draft"....



That was Aaron Rodgers rookie season in a nutshell right there. Does that sound like a guy who was ready to go to you? Probably so...









Even in his 2nd season.... "Still, he was inconsistent in the offseason and only slightly improved in his second training camp"....


"He was very average in the 2nd exhibition game, not very good in the 3rd, and awful in the 4th"....

"In his only meaningful regular season appearance, Rodgers played the entire second half against New England. Once again, he played poorly, holding the ball for 3 sacks and missing several open receivers".....

"It looks like it will be a while, if ever, if he develops"..... (an AFC personnel director)

"After his second pre-season with the Packers, if they had released him, I don't know that anybody would have been shocked. I mean, he wasn't a very good player. He couldn't make a play".

"Once again, Ted Thompson said he wouldn't rule out drafting a quarterback heading into the 2007 draft".....



That's his 2nd season with the Packers in a nutshell. Sound like a QB who's ready to go with all of his kinks worked out to you? Again... probably so.

RobertHorry
01-25-2012, 10:57 AM
Slimm with the regulating

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 10:58 AM
As your're an SEC guy, curious as to your thoughts on Joe Adams and Tyler Wilson.



Post #110...

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?310807-the-official-bowl-season-draft-prospect-discussion-thread.../page11




As for Tyler Wilson, other than Andrew Luck and Matt Barkley, he's the only other quarterback I would've taken in the top 25 picks of this draft had he declared.

jim1
01-25-2012, 11:16 AM
Either you didn't bother to read the article, or you're just being stubborn for the sake of being argumentative. This isn't debateable.



"When it's remembered where he was earlier in his career is almost unfathomable".....

"He was brutal every time out".....

"Until his 20th and final series.... Rodgers had not generated as single point. Sixteen possessions ended with punts, two on INT's, and one on a fumble"....

"If the #2 quarterback job had been awarded based on performance in training camp and games, it would have gone to Craig Nall hands down"....

"Against the Ravens, Rodgers threw an INT, fumbled twice and was sacked 3 times"....

"As the 2006 draft drew near, Rodgers told NFL Network that he had heard the rumors of the Packers possibly selecting a QB with the #5 selection in a move that would likely end his career in Green Bay. Ted Thompson, the General Manager who had drafted Rodgers with the 24th pick the year before, didn't rule it out".....

"18 personnel men wer asked to compare Rodgers against that year's QB pool led by Matt Leinart, Vince Young, and Jay Cutler. Not only did Rodgers not draw any 1st place votes, he had only one 2nd place vote, and three 3rd place votes. Eleven scouts put him 4th, and 3 others even had him behind Brodie Croyle and Charlie Whitehurst"....

"Working against drafting a QB was the grim reality that the Packers probably wold have been looking at a 4th or 5th round pick in exchange for Rodgers"....

"Mike McCarthy preferred Alex Smith to Rodgers even before the 2005 draft"....



That was Aaron Rodgers rookie season in a nutshell right there. Does that sound like a guy who was ready to go to you? Probably so...









Even in his 2nd season.... "Still, he was inconsistent in the offseason and only slightly improved in his second training camp"....


"He was very average in the 2nd exhibition game, not very good in the 3rd, and awful in the 4th"....

"In his only meaningful regular season appearance, Rodgers played the entire second half against New England. Once again, he played poorly, holding the ball for 3 sacks and missing several open receivers".....

"It looks like it will be a while, if ever, if he develops"..... (an AFC personnel director)

"After his second pre-season with the Packers, if they had released him, I don't know that anybody would have been shocked. I mean, he wasn't a very good player. He couldn't make a play".

"Once again, Ted Thompson said he wouldn't rule out drafting a quarterback heading into the 2007 draft".....



That's his 2nd season with the Packers in a nutshell. Sound like a QB who's ready to go with all of his kinks worked out to you? Again... probably so.

And you're laying all of Rodgers' early struggles on Tedford's door? Most Qbs struggle the first couple of years, and my point is hardly to endorse Jeff Tedford. It was a good 2 or 3 years ago that Green Bay couldn't wait to get Favre out the door so they could get Rodgers starting. If that was in year three, there's nothing wrong with that. The point really is, Rodgers shouldn't have been discounted because of the whole Tedford thing- hindsite is as always 20/20, but history shows that Tedford or not, Rodgers is a stud QB, one of the three best QBs in the league today, maybe the best. So regardless what conference he played in, whose tutelage he was under, there you have it. He's an absolute stud now- you think Miami wishes now that they drafted him instead of Ronnie Brown? And those "experts"- where do they stand now on Leinart and Vince Young? I wonder...

As I said before, I hate the whole "hold the ball by your ear" nonsense- I'd prefer a much more intuitive and instinctive approach. If someone told me that I had to throw a football and not pat it before I threw that would drive me nuts. I never was a huge fan of Kerry Collins, but his motion issues were overblown, and Philip Rivers- deliveries don't come much lower and uglier than that, but he's a hell of a passer, exceedingly accurate. These guys, for the most part, should be left alone.


We'll see what happens with Weeden in the Senior Bowl. I just call them like I see them, and I haven't seen anyone better all year, and the conference issue matters not one iota to me. If we don't solve the QB issue this year, I'd probably be all over Tyler Wilson next year, and as to Joe Adams- dude's just a playmaker with big time speed and quicks.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 11:31 AM
slimm pretty much laid out there why i don't believe certain guys on this board who always say rodgers was "my guy" from the get go in that draft..there was nothing can't miss about aaron rodgers when he came out...

as for tyler wilson count me as a guy who was bummed when he didn't come out...him and barkley both stayin in school quite the bummer...i also like tyler wilson as the 3rd true qb in this draft had he come out with luck and barkley...

as for the canes they got another guy regis a dt i think his name is who i'm not a fan of either...i do think they have a edge rush prospect who came out early vernon i wanna say his name is who imo should have stayed in school but i find has some talent

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 11:42 AM
And you're laying all of Rodgers' early struggles on Tedford's door? Most Qbs struggle the first couple of years, and my point is hardly to endorse Jeff Tedford. It was a good 2 or 3 years ago that Green Bay couldn't wait to get Favre out the door so they could get Rodgers starting. If that was in year three, there's nothing wrong with that. The point really is, Rodgers shouldn't have been discounted because of the whole Tedford thing- hindsite is as always 20/20, but history shows that Tedford or not, Rodgers is a stud QB, one of the three best QBs in the league today, maybe the best. So regardless what conference he played in, whose tutelage he was under, there you have it. He's an absolute stud now- you think Miami wishes now that they drafted him instead of Ronnie Brown? And those "experts"- where do they stand now on Leinart and Vince Young? I wonder...

As I said before, I hate the whole "hold the ball by your ear" nonsense- I'd prefer a much more intuitive and instinctive approach. If someone told me that I had to throw a football and not pat it before I threw that would drive me nuts. I never was a huge fan of Kerry Collins, but his motion issues were overblown, and Philip Rivers- deliveries don't come much lower and uglier than that, but he's a hell of a passer, exceedingly accurate. These guys, for the most part, should be left alone.


We'll see what happens with Weeden in the Senior Bowl. I just call them like I see them, and I haven't seen anyone better all year, and the conference issue matters not one iota to me. If we don't solve the QB issue this year, I'd probably be all over Tyler Wilson next year, and as to Joe Adams- dude's just a playmaker with big time speed and quicks.


The part you're not grasping is that if Rodgers had been allowed to play from day 1 before being corrected of his Tedford flaws, he WOULD be on his way out of the league right now, and another bust laid at the feet of Jeff Tedford.

He slid so far on draft day for a reason. NFL personnel people had grown wise the hard way, and began to legitimately develope a strong distaste for the fundamentals of Tedford coached quarterbacks. He didn't go to a bad football team like Matt Ryan or Peyton Manning and light it up from day 1. He went to a team that was already competing for superbowls before he got there and allowed to sit for 3 years and work on his flaws, while also maturing from a mental standpoint.


Tedford didn't "produce" the Aaron Rodgers of 2011. The Green Bay Packers produced the Aaron Rodgers of 2011. The only thing Jeff Tedford did was recruit Rodgers to Cal out of JUCO. Aaron Rodgers is the one that decided to supply the NFL draft with his skillset, flaws and all included in that package.

You think Aaron Rodgers is sitting for 3 years behind a Hall of Fame quarterback, soaking up a WCO in Miami if they had taken him with the 2nd overall pick in 2005? You think Aaron Rodgers was sitting there in the green room falling like a rock on draft day with "NFL MVP" tatted across his forehead?

This entire conversation is becoming a waste of time.



As for Phillip Rivers and his delivery, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It doesn't matter how low your delivery is as long as the throwing elbow is at least shoulder height. What matters is that the arm gets full extension, it doesn't matter if it's sidearm, 3/4's, or over the top.

That's the problem with Brock Osweiler, and why the football doesn't come out of his hand right. He's so tall that he's able to get away with a low delivery, his elbow actually drops below his shoulder and he doesn't get full extension of his arm. It's why he doesn't spin the football cleanly, and the ball tends to die towards the end of it's flight.

jim1
01-25-2012, 11:45 AM
slimm pretty much laid out there why i don't believe certain guys on this board who always say rodgers was "my guy" from the get go in that draft..there was nothing can't miss about aaron rodgers when he came out...

as for tyler wilson count me as a guy who was bummed when he didn't come out...him and barkley both stayin in school quite the bummer...i also like tyler wilson as the 3rd true qb in this draft had he come out with luck and barkley...

as for the canes they got another guy regis a dt i think his name is who i'm not a fan of either...i do think they have a edge rush prospect who came out early vernon i wanna say his name is who imo should have stayed in school but i find has some talent

And which guys would those be? I certainly never was pounding the table for Aaron Rodgers pre draft, I hadn't seen enough of him, nor Alex Smith for that matter. The point is that he worked out exceedingly well, all perpheral, non essentisal issues aside. What was striking was how quickly, right before the draft ha began sliding, big time. Nothing of merit had really change in that short peiod of time iirc, but down he went.

As to Wilson coming out- I do think that he would have been the 3rd blue chip QB coming out in the draft this year if he entered:


Luck
Weeden
Wilson


Then Barkley down a notch form those three if he entered. I can get enthused about the arms of Luck?Weeden/Wilson. barkley's arm remains a yawn to me, much like what little I've seen of Matt Flynn. More of a pop gun than a cannon. Same for Matt Moore- I kind of like the guy, and he has his moments. He just doesn't really have the arm to play with the big boys. It's not a bad arm, but when you compare to Brady/Rodgers/Brees and in my eyes Weeden, it's just not the top notch arm you want in a franchise QB.

Fin Thirteen
01-25-2012, 11:48 AM
Guys,

somebody predicted 5 pages of a tete-a-tete, that looks like it was probably on the conservative side. Can you guys just agree to disagree? It's very interesting reading up to a point, but I think the rest of us passed that point already.

No offense intended.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 11:59 AM
Guys,

somebody predicted 5 pages of a tete-a-tete, that looks like it was probably on the conservative side. Can you guys just agree to disagree? It's very interesting reading up to a point, but I think the rest of us passed that point already.

No offense intended.


Someone help this gentleman with his mouse. He seems to be having difficulty finding his way into a different thread.

No offense intended.



In all seriousness I completely agree with you. I knew better.

jim1
01-25-2012, 12:06 PM
The part you're not grasping is that if Rodgers had been allowed to play from day 1 before being corrected of his Tedford flaws, he WOULD be on his way out of the league right now, and another bust laid at the feet of Jeff Tedford.

He slid so far on draft day for a reason. NFL personnel people had grown wise the hard way, and began to legitimately develope a strong distaste for the fundamentals of Tedford coached quarterbacks. He didn't go to a bad football team like Matt Ryan or Peyton Manning and light it up from day 1. He went to a team that was already competing for superbowls before he got there and allowed to sit for 3 years and work on his flaws, while also maturing from a mental standpoint.


Tedford didn't "produce" the Aaron Rodgers of 2011. The Green Bay Packers produced the Aaron Rodgers of 2011. The only thing Jeff Tedford did was recruit Rodgers to Cal out of JUCO. Aaron Rodgers is the one that decided to supply the NFL draft with his skillset, flaws and all included in that package.

You think Aaron Rodgers is sitting for 3 years behind a Hall of Fame quarterback, soaking up a WCO in Miami if they had taken him with the 2nd overall pick in 2005? You think Aaron Rodgers was sitting there in the green room falling like a rock on draft day with "NFL MVP" tatted across his forehead?

This entire conversation is becoming a waste of time.



As for Phillip Rivers and his delivery, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It doesn't matter how low your delivery is as long as the throwing elbow is at least shoulder height. What matters is that the arm gets full extension, it doesn't matter if it's sidearm, 3/4's, or over the top.

That's the problem with Brock Osweiler, and why the football doesn't come out of his hand right. He's so tall that he's able to get away with a low delivery, his elbow actually drops below his shoulder and he doesn't get full extension of his arm. It's why he doesn't spin the football cleanly, and the ball tends to die towards the end of it's flight.

So your point from that rather vague article, I take it, is that Rodgers had to be trained to adjust the holding point of the ball and stay in the pocket longer? I wouldn't exactly call that a masterpiece of an article. And somehow you think that I'm arguing that Rodgers was ready from day one? It used to be considered a five year maturation process for guys like Len Dawson. By 2008 Favre was being encouraged to leave Green Bay- you speak of it like there's not to be expected a learning curve to the position- of course there is. Look at the other QBs mentioned- Charlie Whitehurst- thanks to him and a blown 2nd round pick Seattle is now starring in "Desperately seeking a QB"; Brodie Croyle- skinny dude with two blown ACls- is he even playing now? Leinart- 'nuff said. His USC tutelage didn't help him make the cut. Vince Young- nope. If I were a betting man, looking at Rodgers and Cam Newton as rookies, my best guess is that Newton would have struggled mightily, as word had it that he could hardly read defenses at all. I'm shocked by how well he played, good for him. I thought that John Beck would be solid by year two- wrong again. But regardless of holding the football by the ear and whatever nonsense, Rodgers is what he is, and that his game needed some tweaking is, in hindsite, neither here nor there- as with most other rookie QBs, it was to be expected.

As toRivers, there is no secret. His elbow is low, the release point is low. What helps is that he's 6-5, that helps to offses the issue. I wouldn't care if he was 6-2, i'd just let him throw naturally if it were up to me.

The issue here really is Weeden- if you want to knock him due to the conference he plays in, have at it, I couldn't care less. I would take Weeedn in a heartbeat, Luck and Tyler Wilson, too, over a guy like Matt Barkley and not think twice about it. Because of talent, not because of any conference concerns. I wouldn't give a second thought to the Big 12 issue- peopple can go ahead and draft crap QBs from better conferences any time they like.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 12:09 PM
And which guys would those be? I certainly never was pounding the table for Aaron Rodgers pre draft, I hadn't seen enough of him, nor Alex Smith for that matter. The point is that he worked out exceedingly well, all perpheral, non essentisal issues aside. What was striking was how quickly, right before the draft ha began sliding, big time. Nothing of merit had really change in that short peiod of time iirc, but down he went.

As to Wilson coming out- I do think that he would have been the 3rd blue chip QB coming out in the draft this year if he entered:


Luck
Weeden
Wilson


Then Barkley down a notch form those three if he entered. I can get enthused about the arms of Luck?Weeden/Wilson. barkley's arm remains a yawn to me, much like what little I've seen of Matt Flynn. More of a pop gun than a cannon. Same for Matt Moore- I kind of like the guy, and he has his moments. He just doesn't really have the arm to play with the big boys. It's not a bad arm, but when you compare to Brady/Rodgers/Brees and in my eyes Weeden, it's just not the top notch arm you want in a franchise QB.

not you...

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 01:16 PM
On the other hand, Upshaw carries 273 pounds pretty stout....


http://media.al.com/mobile-press-reg...5-standard.jpg (http://media.al.com/mobile-press-register/photo/2012/01/10476635-standard.jpg)

finsfanjay13
01-25-2012, 01:22 PM
Upshaw sucks...


...the life out of opposing offenses.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 01:28 PM
that kids lower half is rediculous...he's got a nose tackle lower half but with those great feet and that short area burst and acceleration...guys shouldn't move that well with legs like that...they're tree trunks

no wonder the guy musters up so much power at contact...

he flows laterally down the los and runs things down to the outside better than any stand up olb prospect in this draft...

MiamiDolphin618
01-25-2012, 01:39 PM
Hey Slimm Janzen Jackson declared if you didnt know. Also, I found out he was moved to CB at McNeese. Had a few picks this year.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 01:46 PM
Another reason Upshaw generates great power and leverage is because he understands it. It boils down to great coaching.

Easily gets under a tackle's pads and uses his hands the way you're coached to. Upshaw is always in control of himself and his man, rather than being controlled.

The way an offense lineman generates leverage is with a wide base and a flat back while bending at the knees... punching at an upward angle. They can't do that against a guy who's already naturally got the leverage advantage built in because he's 6'1" and change. Factor in the power, strength, athletic ability, lower body explosion and technique that Upshaw plays with, and it's why he's dominating the Senior Bowl both in contact and non-contact drills.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 01:51 PM
Hey Slimm Janzen Jackson declared if you didnt know. Also, I found out he was moved to CB at McNeese. Had a few picks this year.


Yes he was a 5-star CB in high school. I am aware that he declared and I think it was a good move. He's one of my top 3 safeties in terms of ability.

MiamiDolphin618
01-25-2012, 01:58 PM
Yes he was a 5-star CB in high school. I am aware that he declared and I think it was a good move. He's one of my top 3 safeties in terms of ability.
I didnt see him on the combine list...so hes facing an uphill battle I think. From what Ive seen and read on him..he impresses me quite a bit. I think he could be a terrific pick up in the later rounds.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 02:04 PM
Another reason Upshaw generates great power and leverage is because he understands it. It boils down to great coaching.

Easily gets under a tackle's pads and uses his hands the way you're coached to. Upshaw is always in control of himself and his man, rather than being controlled.

The way an offense lineman generates leverage is with a wide base and a flat back while bending at the knees... punching at an upward angle. They can't do that against a guy who's already naturally got the leverage advantage built in because he's 6'1" and change. Factor in the power, strength, athletic ability, lower body explosion and technique that Upshaw plays with, and it's why he's dominating the Senior Bowl both in contact and non-contact drills.

yeah...no doubt...leverage is a big part of it as well...the ability to get up and under guys pads...

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 02:04 PM
As a former baseball guy, you can still throw a ball with labrum issues, but not with the velocity that Weeden does. I would say Mayock is wrong and Weeden is fine. His labrum is certainly not torn.

Because of Mayock poor Weeden will end up in a MRI machine.

Oh, trust me, that was destined to happen regardless, lol. :)

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 02:09 PM
I think you guys are crazy on this Aaron Rodgers thing. I don't care who doubts what, I had Aaron Rodgers as the #1 pick in that Draft, the #1 quarterback in that Draft, #1 on my mancrush list, and I stand by that today. I don't particularly give a rat's arse what he looked like as a rookie. Rookies is rookies.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 02:09 PM
I didnt see him on the combine list...so hes facing an uphill battle I think. From what Ive seen and read on him..he impresses me quite a bit. I think he could be a terrific pick up in the later rounds.


I don't really worry with that. There's a lot of players invited to the combine that shouldn't be every year and will never sniff an NFL career, while more talented prospects get overlooked. Same with the Senior Bowl.

The question with Janzen remains from the neck up. Whether or not he's matured and got his head right. It's not physical.

All he needs to do is get into an NFL camp somewhere and work hard. He'll aready be as physically talented as any DB that an NFL roster can throw at him.

SMadison29
01-25-2012, 02:15 PM
I think you guys are crazy on this Aaron Rodgers thing. I don't care who doubts what, I had Aaron Rodgers as the #1 pick in that Draft, the #1 quarterback in that Draft, #1 on my mancrush list, and I stand by that today. I don't particularly give a rat's arse what he looked like as a rookie. Rookies is rookies.

I'm right there with you CK. I tried searching for my old posts from back before the 05 draft (guess FH's servers can't hold 5 billion post, lol). There were a lot of people clammoring for Rodgers & were against Alex Smith. The masses were split between Rodgers, Benson, & Edwards. We wound up with neither.

SMadison29
01-25-2012, 02:20 PM
I didnt see him on the combine list...so hes facing an uphill battle I think. From what Ive seen and read on him..he impresses me quite a bit. I think he could be a terrific pick up in the later rounds.

The Combine Invite list has not been released yet. There is a supposed leaked release but it's only of the seniors.

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 02:22 PM
I think I bought into the company line that a QB wasn't necessarily necessary, didn't realize yet how important the position was...but that doesn't change the fact that I adored Aaron Rodgers.

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 02:26 PM
I was talking to TedSlimmJr. and like him, I would've loved to see G.J. Kinne at the Senior Bowl. He did well at the NFLPA Collegiate Bowl. Just look at this haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ytLqbL4nA

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 02:42 PM
I think you guys are crazy on this Aaron Rodgers thing. I don't care who doubts what, I had Aaron Rodgers as the #1 pick in that Draft, the #1 quarterback in that Draft, #1 on my mancrush list, and I stand by that today. I don't particularly give a rat's arse what he looked like as a rookie. Rookies is rookies.

i wasn't referring to you either...more stuff i saw on the main forum...i do know who liked what and who didn't around here the last 3 years since i've been here though...slimm and i came here together from another site where we were draft junkies...

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 03:20 PM
i do know who liked what and who didn't around here the last 3 years...


I do too... including even a little further back than that (Brady Quinn, Ted Ginn, etc.)

I think it's fairly obvious that everybody around here knew what Aaron Rodgers was going to be even before the Packers did.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 03:34 PM
I think you guys are crazy on this Aaron Rodgers thing. I don't care who doubts what, I had Aaron Rodgers as the #1 pick in that Draft, the #1 quarterback in that Draft, #1 on my mancrush list, and I stand by that today. I don't particularly give a rat's arse what he looked like as a rookie. Rookies is rookies.



You sure about that? I think you're full of complete bullsh*t myself....


http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?106766-Aaron-Rodgers

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 03:44 PM
You sure about that? I think you're full of complete bullsh*t myself....


http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?106766-Aaron-Rodgers

all i can say is ouch...slimm done caught you with your hand in the cookie jar...

jim1
01-25-2012, 03:46 PM
I do too... including even a little further back than that (Brady Quinn, Ted Ginn, etc.)

I think it's fairly obvious that everybody around here knew what Aaron Rodgers was going to be even before the Packers did.

I was here back then- I remember people pounding the table for Brady Quinn in 2007, but I don't recall a whole lot of people swearing up and down about Aaron Rodgers. There was a big question as to whether or not he's be worth the 2nd overall pick, and Alex Smith wasn't exactly the slam dunk #1 overall pick that Andrew Luck or Matt Stafford were expected to be. Both years were tough-I was elated when we got John Beck in the 2nd round, Ii'm the first to admit that. But that Rodgers draft was a tough one, and the Ginn draft- I liked Dwayne Bowe personally, but the main critics of the Ginn pick on this site wanted first and foremost Brady Quinn, then also Patrick Willis. Hindsite is always 20/20, but as to Rodgers- there was no stampede on this site as to getting him that year, at least as far as I can recall.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 04:04 PM
I was here back then- I remember people pounding the table for Brady Quinn in 2007, but I don't recall a whole lot of people swearing up and down about Aaron Rodgers. There was a big question as to whether or not he's be worth the 2nd overall pick, and Alex Smith wasn't exactly the slam dunk #1 overall pick that Andrew Luck or Matt Stafford were expected to be. Both years were tough-I was elated when we got John Beck in the 2nd round, Ii'm the first to admit that. But that Rodgers draft was a tough one, and the Ginn draft- I liked Dwayne Bowe personally, but the main critics of the Ginn pick on this site wanted first and foremost Brady Quinn, then also Patrick Willis. Hindsite is always 20/20, but as to Rodgers- there was no stampede on this site as to getting him that year, at least as far as I can recall.


Hoops and since banned (Ricky'sBong) will vouch because we talked about college football and the draft back then. I knew Quinn was going to bust along with Russell, and Ginnger was one of the most ridiculous picks I've ever seen in the top 10. She wasn't even an option for me.

I had Patrick Willis as the best defensive player in the draft, and knew Miami was going to make a mistake and pass him up for Brady Quinn. Worse. They passed him up for a 140 pound kick returner with her foot in a protective boot.

Rodgers presented the exact same risk as every other Tedford QB before him. All these posers running around here trying to convince people that they knew Aaron Rodgers was going to be an elite quarterback are quite frankly, full of sh*t.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 04:09 PM
Hoops and since banned (Ricky'sBong) will vouch because we talked about college football and the draft back then. I knew Quinn was going to bust along with Russell, and Ginnger was one of the most ridiculous picks I've ever seen in the top 10. She wasn't even an option for me.

I had Patrick Willis as the best defensive player in the draft, and knew Miami was going to make a mistake and pass him up for Brady Quinn. Worse. They passed him up for a 140 pound kick returner with his foot in a protective boot.

Rodgers presented the exact same risk as every other Tedford QB before him. All these posers running around here trying to convince people that they knew Aaron Rodgers was going to be an elite quarterback are quite frankly, full of sh*t.

yep...thats exactly as i recall it...

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 04:33 PM
You sure about that? I think you're full of complete bullsh*t myself....


http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?106766-Aaron-Rodgers

I'm full of sh-t because I insisted that even if the Packers draft Matt Leinart, it doesn't mean Aaron Rodgers is a bust? Hmm...

Reading comprehension is key here.

Seeing why he slipped does not = suddenly not liking the man as a draft prospect. When Rodgers slipped, I was as dumbfounded as anyone. That's when Mortenson and Jaws did a good job pointing out some of the problems with Rodgers' deep ball. I'd personally not had a problem with it, but it was lack of tape that bothered people. I got that. I understood it. I would've picked him anyway, though. And I made that clear in those posts. I called him another Phil Rivers, said that during that draft I tregarded him as I did Rivers. Rivers was my #1 prospect in the 2004 Draft. I declared that after his Senior Bowl.

So your proof that I'm full of sh-t...is me talking about how I had Rodgers as the #1 player in the Draft at the time that the Draft happened? Really? LMFAO!

I don't know what you THINK you've found that I should be embarrassed about. I say many times in those posts just how much I loved Aaron Rodgers in that Draft. I've already admitted that I bought into the Dolphins' hype machine that said you don't need to make sure you pick a quarterback. I realize the position is too important for that, now.

The one that is full of sh-t is you if you think I've contradicted myself on that subject. But go on and tell me about what a winner Pat White is and how Cam Newton is a terrible 1st round prospect. Go on and tell me how Andrew Luck is your Sam Bradford this year except oh wait now suddenly Bradford sucks and you always hated Bradford.

VandyLaw
01-25-2012, 05:01 PM
Reading comprehension is key here. Seeing why he slipped does not = suddenly not liking the man as a draft prospect. When Rodgers slipped, I was as dumbfounded as anyone. That's when Mortenson and Jaws did a good job pointing out some of the problems with Rodgers' deep ball. I'd personally not had a problem with it, but it was lack of tape that bothered people. I got that. I understood it. I would've picked him anyway, though. And I made that clear in those posts. I called him another Phil Rivers, said that during that draft I tregarded him as I did Rivers. Rivers was my #1 prospect in the 2004 Draft. I declared that after his Senior Bowl.

I read the linked thread, and ck is absolutely right on regarding what he said in that thread. You guys might want to try reading it again, particularly before you go calling BS. Ridiculous, unnecessary and just wrong.

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 05:07 PM
I'll just say this. I'm very candid and up front about past mistakes. I've talked about mistakes on Brady Quinn, I've talked about mistakes on Ted Ginn and John Beck, etc. Just above if you read up, totally unbidden, I talked about my having bought into the Miami hype machine that QB isn't that important back in 2005 when Aaron Rodgers came out. I admitted that even before Slimm THOUGHT he found something I should be embarrassed about. I had no reason to admit it, if I was interested in lying or contradicting myself I could have implied that I was jumping up and down spitting mad when the Dolphins picked Ronnie Brown instead of Aaron Rodgers. But the Dolphins had made it clear long before then that they weren't likely to take Rodgers, and I bought it. I bought that the position wasn't that important and I bought that it was OK for Miami not to take him even though I ADORED Aaron Rodgers.

But some people around here don't like to talk about their own past mistakes, they do a good job trying to gloss over them.

That's fine. It's a difference in philosophy. People that are "never" wrong, are without fail, full of sh-t. I'm in a business where we run into that a lot. You run into analysts that try and position themselves so that they were never really "wrong"...just "early" or something to that effect. Or they were wrong for all the right reasons, or "nobody could've predicted" this or that. In stock analysis, you run into all of that.

I would rather people know that I've been wrong, and that's why I've always been very up front with it. To me, the smart people will know that means I'm NOT full of sh-t. That's just my way of doing things.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 05:16 PM
I read the linked thread, and ck is absolutely right on regarding what he said in that thread. You guys might want to try reading it again, particularly before you go calling BS. Ridiculous, unnecessary and just wrong.

for some reason i was thinking matt leinart was in the rodgers draft...so when i saw the leinart was the best qb prospect since palmer that's what grabbed me...anyways your correct hand not caught in cookie jar misread on my part...although some of that absolutely reads like hindsight is 20/20 to me...

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 05:18 PM
I'm full of sh-t because I insisted that even if the Packers draft Matt Leinart, it doesn't mean Aaron Rodgers is a bust? Hmm...

Reading comprehension is key here.

Seeing why he slipped does not = suddenly not liking the man as a draft prospect. When Rodgers slipped, I was as dumbfounded as anyone. That's when Mortenson and Jaws did a good job pointing out some of the problems with Rodgers' deep ball. I'd personally not had a problem with it, but it was lack of tape that bothered people. I got that. I understood it. I would've picked him anyway, though. And I made that clear in those posts. I called him another Phil Rivers, said that during that draft I tregarded him as I did Rivers. Rivers was my #1 prospect in the 2004 Draft. I declared that after his Senior Bowl.

So your proof that I'm full of sh-t...is me talking about how I had Rodgers as the #1 player in the Draft at the time that the Draft happened? Really? LMFAO!

I don't know what you THINK you've found that I should be embarrassed about. I say many times in those posts just how much I loved Aaron Rodgers in that Draft. I've already admitted that I bought into the Dolphins' hype machine that said you don't need to make sure you pick a quarterback. I realize the position is too important for that, now.

The one that is full of sh-t is you if you think I've contradicted myself on that subject. But go on and tell me about what a winner Pat White is and how Cam Newton is a terrible 1st round prospect. Go on and tell me how Andrew Luck is your Sam Bradford this year except oh wait now suddenly Bradford sucks and you always hated Bradford.



Are you dizzy yet? Typical CKParrothead bullsh*t and spinning. I'm fairly capable of comprehending what's there. You don't fool me, you never have.


Furthermore, you know I didn't like Sam Bradford to begin with. Where the hell did I say Andrew Luck is my Sam Bradford? I said he's my Matt Ryan... I'll put that thread in front of your face too if I have to.

Secondly, what's with the Pat White is a winner angle? Pat White was a winner, but he wasn't an NFL quarterback prospect. I know where that thread from DolphinDigest is where I specifically said it... in the exact same thread where I talked about Matt Ryan.

Your imagination seems to be getting a little carried away now.


Cam Newton surpassed everybody's expectations of him as a rookie, even his most staunch supporters. Former NFL defensive coordinators that coached against him in college like Todd Grantham didn't think he'd transition as quickly to the NFL as he did either. Todd Grantham has forgotten more about football in the past 10 minutes than you'll ever know. But he may have been wrong here, like a lot of us were. Then again, we might end up right too. He'll be required to run a more sophisticated offense eventually.

You don't run across many quarterbacks you don't "love".

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 05:20 PM
for some reason i was thinking matt leinart was in the rodgers draft...so when i saw the leinart was the best qb prospect since palmer that's what grabbed me...anyways your correct hand not caught in cookie jar misread on my part...although some of that absolutely reads like hindsight is 20/20 to me...

If anything the embarrassing thing is just that I liked Matt Leinart so damned much.

But what can I say?

As a matter of fact...I actually very recently re-watched a game that Aaron Rodgers had against Matt Leinart. Both QBs, throw for throw. I had two thoughts:

1. God damn I love Aaron Rodgers.

2. To this very day, even with the benefit of hindisght, knowing what I know, being embarrassed about it, etc...I'll be damned if I don't still watch Leinart in that game...and still love him. Just one of those things...

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 05:29 PM
If anything the embarrassing thing is just that I liked Matt Leinart so damned much.

But what can I say?

As a matter of fact...I actually very recently re-watched a game that Aaron Rodgers had against Matt Leinart. Both QBs, throw for throw. I had two thoughts:

1. God damn I love Aaron Rodgers.

2. To this very day, even with the benefit of hindisght, knowing what I know, being embarrassed about it, etc...I'll be damned if I don't still watch Leinart in that game...and still love him. Just one of those things...

we all miss...i don't mind admitting when i do provided its legitimate...heck i liked brady quinn...i wasn't doing anything anywhere near as in depth evaluation wise as i do now back then but i did like him...for me it was quinn and revis...should have gone with revis who i thought was money at pitt...

it happens

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Are you dizzy yet? Typical CKParrothead bullsh*t and spinning. I'm fairly capable of comprehending what's there. You don't fool me, you never have.


Furthermore, you know I didn't like Sam Bradford to begin with. Where the hell did I say Andrew Luck is my Sam Bradford? I said he's my Matt Ryan... I'll put that thread in front of your face too if I have to.

Secondly, what's with the Pat White is a winner angle? Pat White was a winner, but he wasn't an NFL quarterback prospect. I know where that thread from DolphinDigest is where I specifically said it... in the exact same thread where I talked about Matt Ryan.

Your imagination seems to be getting a little carried away now.


Cam Newton surpassed everybody's expectations of him as a rookie, even his most staunch supporters. Former NFL defensive coordinators that coached against him in college like Todd Grantham didn't think he'd transition as quickly to the NFL as he did either. Todd Grantham has forgotten more about football in the past 10 minutes than you'll ever know. But he may have been wrong here, like a lot of us were. Then again, we might end up right too. He'll be required to run a more sophisticated offense eventually.

You don't run across many quarterbacks you don't "love".

LOL, I see you don't really like being called out on some of your bullsh-t.

Go ahead on your old man's tirade. It doesn't seem like many other people are buying that you've found any contradictions in what I'm saying about Rodgers.

RobertHorry
01-25-2012, 05:36 PM
I never saw Slimm say Pat White was going to be a good NFL prospect. I remember him saying all he did was win in college, but that he also was a bad QB prospect.

Slimm did miss on Newton, but so did a large amount of people. If anything, if you try to crucify Slimm I would do it for his Reshad Jones backing. Hot damn Jones is a terrible FS. But then again he did say he is out of position, BUT he is atrocious at a deep single high FS.

Slimm isn't wrong that often, rarely actually.

And I thought Rodgers would suck to an unimaginable degree in the NFL. The way he couldn't create a play and how he held the ball annoyed me to no end.

But then again I still have hope in Chad Henne, so there goes my NFL QB evaluation.

beanh8er
01-25-2012, 05:39 PM
I'll just say this. I'm very candid and up front about past mistakes. I've talked about mistakes on Brady Quinn, I've talked about mistakes on Ted Ginn and John Beck, etc. Just above if you read up, totally unbidden, I talked about my having bought into the Miami hype machine that QB isn't that important back in 2005 when Aaron Rodgers came out. I admitted that even before Slimm THOUGHT he found something I should be embarrassed about. I had no reason to admit it, if I was interested in lying or contradicting myself I could have implied that I was jumping up and down spitting mad when the Dolphins picked Ronnie Brown instead of Aaron Rodgers. But the Dolphins had made it clear long before then that they weren't likely to take Rodgers, and I bought it. I bought that the position wasn't that important and I bought that it was OK for Miami not to take him even though I ADORED Aaron Rodgers.

But some people around here don't like to talk about their own past mistakes, they do a good job trying to gloss over them.

That's fine. It's a difference in philosophy. People that are "never" wrong, are without fail, full of sh-t. I'm in a business where we run into that a lot. You run into analysts that try and position themselves so that they were never really "wrong"...just "early" or something to that effect. Or they were wrong for all the right reasons, or "nobody could've predicted" this or that. In stock analysis, you run into all of that.

I would rather people know that I've been wrong, and that's why I've always been very up front with it. To me, the smart people will know that means I'm NOT full of sh-t. That's just my way of doing things.
I honestly, as a 3rd party observer, did not see anything that contradicted what your beliefs about Aaron Rodgers are in that thread.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 05:40 PM
I read the linked thread, and ck is absolutely right on regarding what he said in that thread. You guys might want to try reading it again, particularly before you go calling BS. Ridiculous, unnecessary and just wrong.


You might want to read it again.....


"I don't see any other QB in this league whose presence should disqualify a look at Matt Leinart". ---- {Contradiction.}




"The Dolphins didn't draft Rodgers and I understand why, there were questions about him. This was a weak draft to be drafting a QB in the top 5. Neither he nor Smith were any Roethlisberger or Manning. That much is clear now that the hype and hoopla of the draft have faded". ---- {Does this sound like the same person that had Aaron Rodgers as the #1 pick in the draft to you. This is same guy who'll now bash the hell out of Nick Saban for not drafting Rodgers.}


"Rodgers could compete with Leinart. I would expect Leinart to win, at least eventually. And if they both suck, then guess what you drafted poorly not once but twice so the joke is on you"..... etc.... ---- { Same guy who knew Aaron Rodgers was going to be an elite quarterback.}


"Wasn't Billy Volek a Tedford QB too? Don't forget Akili Smith". ---- { Same guy who suddenly thinks I'm "crazy" for the Teford connection, and thinking that his problems as a rookie were strictly due to just being a rookie. }






It might be hard for most of you to be able to sift through all this bullsh*t and spinning, but not me. Reading comprehension is most definitely key.

DAFINZ
01-25-2012, 05:41 PM
As much as I relish reading both CK's and Slimm's evaluations on prospects, I do believe this thread is currently in dire needs of control and direction towards the orginal discussion.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 05:41 PM
I never saw Slimm say Pat White was going to be a good NFL prospect. I remember him saying all he did was win in college, but that he also was a bad QB prospect.

Slimm did miss on Newton, but so did a large amount of people. If anything, if you try to crucify Slimm I would do it for his Reshad Jones backing. Hot damn Jones is a terrible FS. But then again he did say he is out of position, BUT he is atrocious at a deep single high FS.

Slimm isn't wrong that often, rarely actually.

And I thought Rodgers would suck to an unimaginable degree in the NFL. The way he couldn't create a play and how he held the ball annoyed me to no end.

But then again I still have hope in Chad Henne, so there goes my NFL QB evaluation.

you should really give that one up...ha ha...and i still don't think reshad jones is an awful safety...better suited for strong imo but i don't think he's awful...

jim1
01-25-2012, 05:43 PM
I'll just say this. I'm very candid and up front about past mistakes. I've talked about mistakes on Brady Quinn, I've talked about mistakes on Ted Ginn and John Beck, etc. Just above if you read up, totally unbidden, I talked about my having bought into the Miami hype machine that QB isn't that important back in 2005 when Aaron Rodgers came out. I admitted that even before Slimm THOUGHT he found something I should be embarrassed about. I had no reason to admit it, if I was interested in lying or contradicting myself I could have implied that I was jumping up and down spitting mad when the Dolphins picked Ronnie Brown instead of Aaron Rodgers. But the Dolphins had made it clear long before then that they weren't likely to take Rodgers, and I bought it. I bought that the position wasn't that important and I bought that it was OK for Miami not to take him even though I ADORED Aaron Rodgers.

But some people around here don't like to talk about their own past mistakes, they do a good job trying to gloss over them.

That's fine. It's a difference in philosophy. People that are "never" wrong, are without fail, full of sh-t. I'm in a business where we run into that a lot. You run into analysts that try and position themselves so that they were never really "wrong"...just "early" or something to that effect. Or they were wrong for all the right reasons, or "nobody could've predicted" this or that. In stock analysis, you run into all of that.

I would rather people know that I've been wrong, and that's why I've always been very up front with it. To me, the smart people will know that means I'm NOT full of sh-t. That's just my way of doing things.

Speaking of which, take a look at XCO. Bounced off of solid support at around 7.70 a few days ago, ran 10% or so a couple of days ago and had a very nice pullback today before running again. There's some pretty serious insider buying going on, it's ready to pop out of a cup and handle, and it's in the seriously oversold nat gas sector.

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 05:43 PM
You might want to read it again.....


"I don't see any other QB in this league whose presence should disqualify a look at Matt Leinart". ---- Contradiction.




"The Dolphins didn't draft Rodgers and I understand why, there were questions about him. This was a weak draft to be drafting a QB in the top 5. Neither he nor Smith were any Roethlisberger or Manning. That much is clear now that the hype and hoopla of the draft have faded". ---- Does this sound like the same person that had Aaron Rodgers as the #1 pick in the draft to you. This is same guy who'll now bash the hell out of Nick Saban for not drafting Rodgers.


"Rodgers could compete with Leinart. I would expect Leinart to win, at least eventually. And if they both suck, then guess what you drafted poorly not once but twice so the joke is on you"..... etc.... ---- Same guy who knew Aaron Rodgers was going to be an elite quarterback.


"Wasn't Billy Volek a Tedford QB too? Don't forget Akili Smith". ---- Same guy who suddenly thinks I'm "crazy" for the Teford connection, and thinking that his problems as a rookie were strictly due to just being a rookie.

It might be hard for most of you to be able to sift through all this bullsh*t and spinning, but not me. Reading comprehension is most definitely key.

You're pretty much jusy seeing what you want to see. Others aren't seeing it. I don't see it. All I see is me being very high on Matt Leinart.

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 05:44 PM
Speaking of which, take a look at XCO. Bounced off of solid support at around 7.70 a few days ago, ran 10% or so a couple of days ago and had a very nice pullback today before running again. There's some pretty serious insider buying going on, it's ready to pop out of a cup and handle, and it's in the seriously oversold nat gas sector.

Trust me when I say that I'm not about to start talking about stocks on message boards and giving out research. They barely tolerate my football obsession.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 05:47 PM
LOL, I see you don't really like being called out on some of your bullsh-t.

Go ahead on your old man's tirade. It doesn't seem like many other people are buying that you've found any contradictions in what I'm saying about Rodgers.


You haven't called out any of my "bullsh*t" yet. The bullsh*t part is it's things you've made up in your head. Show us all where this material is. I'm 100% certain I can show what I said and where I said it.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 05:54 PM
I never saw Slimm say Pat White was going to be a good NFL prospect. I remember him saying all he did was win in college, but that he also was a bad QB prospect.

Slimm did miss on Newton, but so did a large amount of people. If anything, if you try to crucify Slimm I would do it for his Reshad Jones backing. Hot damn Jones is a terrible FS. But then again he did say he is out of position, BUT he is atrocious at a deep single high FS.

Slimm isn't wrong that often, rarely actually.

And I thought Rodgers would suck to an unimaginable degree in the NFL. The way he couldn't create a play and how he held the ball annoyed me to no end.

But then again I still have hope in Chad Henne, so there goes my NFL QB evaluation.



My backing of Reshad Jones was always based on the fact that he was playing out of position. I tried to tell CK and Magoo from the start that he didn't need to be playing FS, or being the high safety in any single high or "sky" coverage looks. They always disagreed and insisted that Jones was a FS instead of a SS.

Once Bowles took over and started having Jones rotate down more and be more a flat defender, the blown coverages stopped and Jones played much better.

Furthermore, I never said Jones was going to be anything special. My point was that he was the only safety on Miami's roster who had a CHANCE to be, and Miami needed to play him (in the right position) to find out. I know damn well it ain't ever going to be Chris Clemons.

jim1
01-25-2012, 05:54 PM
Trust me when I say that I'm not about to start talking about stocks on message boards and giving out research. They barely tolerate my football obsession.

Giving out research? Hardly the point. As to people on this board and tolerances, some people take this s*** way to seriously. This is a collection of amateurs spouting opinions, myself obviously included- not that I don't really enjoy it sometimes, but that's all that is is. All of us have opinions, and the cliche is fairly accurate as to what those are remembrances of.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 05:55 PM
so ck you're not buying that coples being relatively average off the ball matters??? i understand that he can do so many other things really well but you don't think an explosive initial get off or at least a pretty darn good one matters...

i don't get that...

MiamiDolphin618
01-25-2012, 05:58 PM
so ck you're not buying that coples being relatively average off the ball matters??? i understand that he can do so many other things really well but you don't think an explosive initial get off or at least a pretty darn good one matters...

i don't get that...

I cant speak for CK..but i read it as that Coples is getting an explosive get off...it just doesnt look as explosive due to his enormous size and length.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 06:04 PM
I cant speak for CK..but i read it as that Coples is getting an explosive get off...it just doesnt look as explosive due to his enormous size and length.

ehhh...i mean i can see that to some extent given the size and measurables...we're talking about a massive guy...but still when i put him apples to apples off the ball with other edge rushers of similar size like a julius peppers we're talking about a significant difference...i think coples is gonna be more the guy who goes thru you rather than around you but you still got to have high end pass rush tools...which outside of the get off he does...that difference in letting the tackle get into his kick step can and is the difference many times between a pressure and a wash out...and when you can make that tackle have to constantly think about getting beat off the ball thats when many other things open up for you as far as redirecting inside etc...

to me it matters...

finsfanjay13
01-25-2012, 06:06 PM
Trust me when I say that I'm not about to start talking about stocks on message boards and giving out research. They barely tolerate my football obsession.

Good. You want to talk about differing philosophies...

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 06:10 PM
The Courtney Upshaw vs. Quinton Coples vs. Melvin Ingram vs. Cam Johnson battle soon. I'm liking Upshaw most right now.

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/01/tumblr_ly1d8krj0O1qzvd9r-1.gif

MiamiDolphin618
01-25-2012, 06:10 PM
ehhh...i mean i can see that to some extent given the size and measurables...we're talking about a massive guy...but still when i put him apples to apples off the ball with other edge rushers of similar size like a julius peppers we're talking about a significant difference...i think coples is gonna be more the guy who goes thru you rather than around you but you still got to have high end pass rush tools...which outside of the get off he does...that difference in letting the tackle get into his kick step can and is the difference many times between a pressure and a wash out...and when you can make that tackle have to constantly think about getting beat off the ball thats when many other things open up for you as far as redirecting inside etc...

to me it matters...

I gotcha. I honestly havent seen enough of Coples to say one way or the other. That was just how I interpreted CK. I do think first step explosion is really important...but I dont see any JPPs in this draft.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 06:13 PM
I gotcha. I honestly havent seen enough of Coples to say one way or the other. That was just how I interpreted CK. I do think first step explosion is really important...but I dont see any JPPs in this draft.

its the first thing i look for in edge pass rushers...how they get off the ball...

RobertHorry
01-25-2012, 06:15 PM
My backing of Reshad Jones was always based on the fact that he was playing out of position. I tried to tell CK and Magoo from the start that he didn't need to be playing FS, or being the high safety in any single high or "sky" coverage looks. They always disagreed and insisted that Jones was a FS instead of a SS.

Once Bowles took over and started having Jones rotate down more and be more a flat defender, the blown coverages stopped and Jones played much better.

Furthermore, I never said Jones was going to be anything special. My point was that he was the only safety on Miami's roster who had a CHANCE to be, and Miami needed to play him (in the right position) to find out. I know damn well it ain't ever going to be Chris Clemons.

I don't see how anyone can even view Jones as a sky coverage safety. Its unfathomable. He has terrible hips and when he swerves from his backpedal into full stride, its even worse. He wastes way too much time in the process.

He is a GOOD prospect at an in-box SS or SS all together. Very physical and has the attributes to play Strong.

I have two crushes who I will never let go. We all have those. Chad Henne and Chris Clemons. I will never admit they suck until they go on a spree of atrocious play. Henne's play at the beginning of the year encouraged me. I can't let go. I just cant. That arm and poise and ability to stare down the barrel and deliver a strike. He got lighter and was moving around with more finesse. I know he sure as hell had zero blocking and run game at the beginning of the year. Clemons with all that acceleration, speed, and ability to hit like a monster truck won't let me drop him either. If anything he might be a decent SS with that ability. I know he will never be an Ed Reed ballhawk though.

Don't ask why I have these crushes. Robert Horry was mine when he was on the Rockets and I stuck by him when he was traded and thought of as a bust and look how that's treated me. 7 Rings

MiamiDolphin618
01-25-2012, 06:16 PM
its the first thing i look for in edge pass rushers...how they get off the ball...
Speaking of UNC pass rushers...what do you think of Paige-Moss? From a talent perspective

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 06:18 PM
I don't see how anyone can even view Jones as a sky coverage safety. Its unfathomable. He has terrible hips and when he swerves from his backpedal into full stride, its even worse. He wastes way too much time in the process.

He is a GOOD prospect at an in-box SS or SS all together. Very physical and has the attributes to play Strong.

I have two crushes who I will never let go. We all have those. Chad Henne and Chris Clemons. I will never admit they suck until they go on a spree of atrocious play. Henne's play at the beginning of the year encouraged me. I can't let go. I just cant. That arm and poise and ability to stare down the barrel and deliver a strike. He got lighter and was moving around with more finesse. I know he sure as hell had zero blocking and run game at the beginning of the year. Clemons with all that acceleration, speed, and ability to hit like a monster truck won't let me drop him either. If anything he might be a decent SS with that ability. I know he will never be an Ed Reed ballhawk though.

Don't ask why I have these crushes. Robert Horry was mine when he was on the Rockets and I stuck by him when he was traded and thought of as a bust and look how that's treated me. 7 Rings

Honestly, the Chad Henne thing isn't bad cause I still want him to succeed as well. If he had the blocking and Reggie Bush running that came on late in the season (and of course stayed healthy), I think we could've seen him do well. Too late now though, Matt Moore all but booted him off the team most likely. Although he'd be good to keep on the roster.

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 06:21 PM
ehhh...i mean i can see that to some extent given the size and measurables...we're talking about a massive guy...but still when i put him apples to apples off the ball with other edge rushers of similar size like a julius peppers we're talking about a significant difference...i think coples is gonna be more the guy who goes thru you rather than around you but you still got to have high end pass rush tools...which outside of the get off he does...that difference in letting the tackle get into his kick step can and is the difference many times between a pressure and a wash out...and when you can make that tackle have to constantly think about getting beat off the ball thats when many other things open up for you as far as redirecting inside etc...

to me it matters...

To answer your question, I'm not really worried about the first step as much as you are because I like his second and third steps on his edge rush. I think when you really pull out and get a look at it, he's hoofing it pretty deceivingly fast and guys are having a tough time getting back quickly enough to mirror him. The length gives him an advantage. He doesn't have to get his feet and base up the field as far and as quick as Cam Wake does, because of his length. I also believe, based on what I've seen, that guys can improve how they get off the ball.

It just strikes me as something that is destined to be overblown.

Inch78
01-25-2012, 06:23 PM
Off topic again, but I just wanted to say that us casual posters out there really appreciate the insight of both CK and Slimm - personally speaking they are 2 of the big reasons as to why I keep coming back to this site. However, this whole 'my d1ck's bigger than your d1ck' thing with regards to respective draft hits and misses is getting a bit tiresome now. Do we really have to look forward to this oneupmanship every time a prospect you disagreed on turns out to be a superstar/flop? In short guys, love the banter and really appreciate the insight but could certainly do without the 'I told you so' afterwards. You're both too good for that.

TedSlimmJr
01-25-2012, 06:38 PM
Off topic again, but I just wanted to say that us casual posters out there really appreciate the insight of both CK and Slimm - personally speaking they are 2 of the big reasons as to why I keep coming back to this site. However, this whole 'my d1ck's bigger than your d1ck' thing with regards to respective draft hits and misses is getting a bit tiresome now. Do we really have to look forward to this oneupmanship every time a prospect you disagreed on turns out to be a superstar/flop? In short guys, love the banter and really appreciate the insight but could certainly do without the 'I told you so' afterwards. You're both too good for that.


Completely agree. My point isn't really to rehash hits and misses, everybody has those. It's kinda like losing a fist fight. If you've never lost a fist fight, it's because you've never really been in one to begin with. Fight in enough of 'em and you're gonna lose. Draft prospects are no different.

However, blatant bullsh*t is blatant bullsh*t. I'm not going sit here while somebody tries to shovel a bunch of it on me and call me crazy.

I think a certain level of integrity needs to be kept in place here. It's not, and that's a problem.

If I have to deal with myself I'll deal with it. I don't need anyone's approval.


And he can still have Jeff Demps.....

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 06:42 PM
Off topic again, but I just wanted to say that us casual posters out there really appreciate the insight of both CK and Slimm - personally speaking they are 2 of the big reasons as to why I keep coming back to this site. However, this whole 'my d1ck's bigger than your d1ck' thing with regards to respective draft hits and misses is getting a bit tiresome now. Do we really have to look forward to this oneupmanship every time a prospect you disagreed on turns out to be a superstar/flop? In short guys, love the banter and really appreciate the insight but could certainly do without the 'I told you so' afterwards. You're both too good for that.

Simple fact, when I bring up a past opinion, more often than not it's me bringing up my having been wrong about X, Y or Z. I talk about my misses more than my hits. In this case, hoops said something about not buying these people on here that say they loved Aaron Rodgers back in 2005, and since I'm one of those guys that DID love Aaron Rodgers back then, I just had to say no I really did love Rodgers.

It's old man winter over there that decides to open a can of worms because he thinks he's found some sort of incontrovertible proof (which evidently nobody but him buys) that I'm lying. I almost NEVER bring up someone's past opinions to use against them. I could do that like Slimm does, but that's just not my way.

beanh8er
01-25-2012, 06:48 PM
Just for the record. I've never been wrong. So yea. I'm 1-1.

vt_dolfan
01-25-2012, 07:17 PM
Well, Im no draft expert. All I can do is go by what I have seen in watching football since 1983....and, I think people tend to overlook or overthink things.

I have 0 doubt Weeden will be a franchise Qb barring injury. Call me a Weeden fanboy, etc. I think its clear as day if you take a look at the break down UD did on him last season....trust your eyes. Weeden is a gunslinger in the Marino mold.

beanh8er
01-25-2012, 07:19 PM
I'm going to white knight Slimm a bit here. I can see where he gets the impression that you did not care for Aaron Rodgers, but CK was comparing Rodgers to the prospect of Leinart, one that CK liked a lot, after seeing Aaron Rodgers in his spot duty, and preseason where Aaron was underwhelming to say the least. Unfortunately the posts don't go back enough to see his pre-draft evaluation, so we will really never know. I, for one, trust CK in this situation as he has manned up time and time again when he was wrong about a prospect. CK's original argument was that based on his play at Cal that Aaron was a great prospect worthy of the number 1 overall pick, but after he saw him in action in the NFL, he didn't like him as much. Opinions can change, and I feel like this should just be dropped, and we go back to evaluating prospects.

ckparrothead
01-25-2012, 07:35 PM
1. You loved him so much that you didn't think he'd eventually beat out a Matt Leinart in a hypothetical QB battle.

Pretty simple. I loved Matt Leinart. Now, if you find me a post where I say that I didn't love Matt Leinart, then maybe you've got something here.

But this is similar to when you kept claiming that I must not have liked Matt Ryan because I thought it ludicrous to say that he would beat John Beck in a camp battle within 5 minutes. If anyone wins a camp battle in 5 minutes, there wasn't actually a battle. I mean, unless one of them is a quadriplegic or something. If a "camp battle" is won in 5 minutes, whoever is judging already had their mind relatively made up. I argued this to you over and over but for some reason it just doesn't sink in.


2. You had him as the #1 overall prospect, even though it was a weak draft for QB's in the top 5.

That particular draft was widely being regarded as a weak draft PERIOD, all the way around, every position. When I compared the extent to which I liked Rodgers to how I regarded Phil Rivers, that was me saying I like this QB as the top QB in the Draft and probably the #1 overall pick in that draft...because that's what I declared about Phil Rivers after he dominated the Senior Bowl.


3. You understand why the Dolphins didn't draft him at #2 because there were questions about him, but you had him as the #1 prospect.

I'm not even sure how those contradict. I UNDERSTAND why teams would pass on Cam Newton. I UNDERSTAND not liking a guy with a lack of experience, in an odd system, that once was arrested for stealing a laptop. I also would have drafted Cam Newton #1 overall if I were in position to do so,, and made that clear.


4. I'm crazy for attributing his struggles as a rookie to being a Tedford quarterback, where you clearly insinuate that Billy Volek and mega-bust Akili Smith were both Tedford QB's.

...where did I say you were crazy for attributing his skills to his being a Tedford quarterback? You're reading things that aren't there. As usual.

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 07:35 PM
I'm just waiting for Driscoll to pop in and ask about a boxing match. :D

Hayden Fox
01-25-2012, 07:45 PM
Interesting that on NFLN Davis and Mayock thought that Weeden had good, but not elite arm strength. I hear people hear describing his passes as causing "vapor trails", but I am not hearing the analysts going crazy over his velo.

Harry_Bagpipe
01-25-2012, 07:56 PM
I want a savannah kitty.

finsfanjay13
01-25-2012, 07:59 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/01/Popcorn15ScaryMovie-1.gif

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 08:08 PM
So how about that Senior Bowl?

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 08:37 PM
You may be the only person on this board who doesn't use punctuation or capitalize anything, yet can still make some sense. :)

who's got time for either of those things??? i'm all about short cuts...ha ha

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 08:38 PM
hoops is too good for capital letters. They are beneath him. hoops owns capital letters.

hoops don't care.

D-bolt
01-25-2012, 08:38 PM
I don't post much on here anymore up until draft time, but I remember CK was very high on Rodgers in regards to the 2005 draft. When everyone was hanging off of Alex Smith's nuts CK was steadfast on Rodgers being his top pick. I'm not going on search through the archives to pull a rabbit out of my arse, but I will stand behind CK on this one 100%. Now please let's fast forward to 2012 and argue about the QB's in this class right now.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 08:40 PM
hoops is too good for capital letters. They are beneath him. hoops owns capital letters.

hoops don't care.

damn i wish i came up with that as a response...

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 08:42 PM
damn i wish i came up with that as a response...

hoops has people come up with his responses for him. hoops is THAT good.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 08:46 PM
hoops has people come up with his responses for him. hoops is THAT good.

alright now...stay on your end of the couch...

finsfanjay13
01-25-2012, 08:47 PM
I'm just having fun. :)

WelcomeBack
01-25-2012, 08:49 PM
alright now...stay on your end of the couch...

Haha, I'm just messing with you hoops. Trying to get away from the battle royal fiasco going on.

I haven't been able to watch the Senior Bowl practices cause of work, are you going to do a recap? I always enjoy discussing the draft with you as well.

hooshoops
01-25-2012, 08:49 PM
no worries...comes from my line of work...i work in the insurance industry where everything must be in the notes or it didn't happen it seems...and they care less about punctuation and capital letters...

jim1
01-25-2012, 08:52 PM
Interesting that on NFLN Davis and Mayock thought that Weeden had good, but not elite arm strength. I hear people hear describing his passes as causing "vapor trails", but I am not hearing the analysts going crazy over his velo.

As much as I love Weeden's arm, "vapor trails" doesn't necessarily come to mind. And by that I mean some of the ridiculous frozen ropes that I've seen from, for example, Elway and Brady. It's a great arm- powerful, accurate, and he can make all the throws. Maybe more of a Matt Stafford or Sam Bradford type arm, although I do love Stafford's arm and like Bradford's. But don't get me wrong- Weeden's arm is powerful imo, top notch in my book.

Later tonight or tomorrow Scott Wright from Draft Countdown will release his Wednesday Senior Bowl report, and there will be plenty on Weeden. I'm curious as to what he'll have to say, because he's an admirer of Weeden, but hasn't been a huge fan given the age issue and some other concerns from what I recall. He likes Weeden but as of several weeks ago doesn't love him. Maybe the last couple of practices altered his opinion, I don't know. His, like everyone else's, will be just an opinion, but I'm curious as to what paradigm shift might occur in general concerning Weeden during and after Senior Bowl week.