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View Full Version : hoops post senior bowl week takeaways...



hooshoops
01-29-2012, 12:22 PM
Quentin coples was the best prospect on the field all week…a top 10 pick…if reports are true that we are gonna implement a hybrid defense this year even he’d still be my top target with our top pick…we’ve already discussed him at length on here but this is the premium defensive front 7 talent in the draft…if it’s a hybrid d we will employ doesn’t matter to me I’m taking a chance on this kid with our top pick…highest upside only real concern I have with him is will the motor run hot every play…6 ft 5 280 lbs with the strength and movement skills he has at that size and length is rare…knew when to stop his rush and get up in the air in passin lanes...he's gonna knock a lot of balls down at the los...but watch out for jax to scoop him up before he ever gets to us…

Mike adams is a top 50 pick left tackle…long and athletic with good feet and movement skills a little soft as a run blocker but that’s pretty prevalent in left tackles…there's some buyer beware for me there though...

Cordy glenn showed nice tackle feet at 345 lbs…I have a first round grade on him…I think he’ll be a monster inside at left guard…but I also think he has right tackle abilities…he played left tackle in the game yesterday and faired very well…the feet were on display

Kendall reyes the dt from uconn displayed interior pass rush talents all week…I have to think he helped himself as much as anyone this week…very active hands

Alameda taamu may have been the best player on the field in the game yesterday…he destroyed any single man matchup that was in front of him pushing the pocket and displayed nice screen play awareness and good feet and quickness for a guy that size…rare movement skills…he’s more ready to help someone than paul solia was when he came out…I liked what I saw there all week…top 50 pick all day long and if we do lose solia in free agency someone I would target with our high 2nd rounder

Isiah pead plays bigger than he is…I’ve been a fan of this kid for some time…but at that size you’re probably looking at a 3rd down back and special teams returner…I think he’s a solid 4th round value…explosive and tough only knock I have is he’s light in the pants at 193 lbs and can he hold up in pass pro

Lavonte david is a first round grade football player who probably someone steals in the mid to late 2nd round cause of his size and weight…love lavonte he locked up his man in coverage yesterday and ladarius green struggled to get off him down the field…someones gonna steal them a heck of a 43 backer in a colts like scheme…has more pop than his weight would suggest…

Cam Johnson displayed good get off of the ball all week…another guy I think helped himself tremendously and imo scheme diverse as he played end and olb at uva in both the 43 and 34…have to think he’s a guy who’s getting top 50 consideration but to me that’s a little rich…top 75

Doug martin is another guy at rb who will make a steal for someone imo in the 4th round…not overly explosive or quick but just a damn good football player…a glue guy

The tackle from cal Mitchell Schwartz all week showed me pretty good feet and form…guy just gets the job done…underrated tackle prospect

Dwight bentley at cb may have been the best cb I saw all week…another guy just under 5 ft 10 I think he’s a sure top 75 pick…

Joe adams displayed explosive burst and solid hands all week and the ability to make the first man miss…solid 3rd round grade there…tough for his size also…

Juron criner I thought showed better than I expected this week…I don’t think he runs great routes but he showed the ability to separate and had a nice rapport with his qb nick foles…I don’t think he’s a better prospect then leonard hankerson was last year however and hank went in the 3rd round…hank ran much better routes…3rd round for criner might be a good call…but I think I’d look elsewhere…

Dwight jones underwhelmed me all week…big bodied but maybe too big…I think he needs to drop about 10 lbs and get some explosion and burst to his game…a buildup speed guy I thought he had a rough week and hurt his stock…top 50 i'm doubting it

Vick ballard I’m a fan…rocked people in pass pro drills showed the ability to run inside with power in the game yesterday and can catch the ball out of the backfield…underrated 4th round steal and target of mine…

Ladarius green all week showed the ability separate out of his cuts at te…had trouble doing the same in the game however…I was thinking he had worked his way into round 3 consideration before the game and I think I’ll stick by that for now…better blocker than I expected also and I swear I can add 10 lbs to that 237 lb frame and not lose anything…

Zach brown can really run but like mayock I thought he played with too much finesse this week…more interested in running around guys than thru them…I think he might be a boom or bust guy…I’m not taking him with a top 20 pick I know that

Jeff fuller is a no thanks…he couldn’t separate from anyone down the field all week…dbs in his hip all over the field

Ryan lindley showed off the best arm on the field yesterday…I don’t know who questions that kids arm strength but I think they’re off their rocker…biggest issue I see with his game is accuracy is scattershot…developmental qb mid round guy

Chris rainey looks more track guy than football guy to me…but he’s uber explosive…you never know with guys like that…I tend to stay away

Brandon Thompson displayed some nice off the ball quickness and shoot the gap talents…I think first rounds a little rich but top 50 sounds right to me…

Sean spence does nothing for me outside of specials…too light in the pants and to me a rocked up safety trying to play lb…mayock said he made a lot of money this week I just don’t agree…like I said prior can’t hold lavonte davids jock

Bobby wagner from Utah st at lb got my attention…murder on specials…looks like vines for arms…I’m a fan I know that…

te michael egnew was another guy who underwhelmed all week...don't know if he's too heavy now or what but he lacked explosive qualities all week...

i thought brandon weeden looked pretty good all things being equal...showed off he's a quick learner as for the most part i thought he looked solid taking pro drops...pretty good footwork...got stepped on and then forced a ball into coverage and then threw a dead duck on a vertical where he had high potential for a big play ball came out of his hand awkward...i think the first round stuff still is just momentum of the week however but i do think top 50 is likely off what i saw...most the other qbs were quite underwhelming imo...first round physical talent that will drop only cause of age...

Phinatic8u
01-29-2012, 12:27 PM
I want Coples or Upshaw, both have elite potential.

Geforce
01-29-2012, 01:51 PM
I started warming up to Coples when I learned that he moved inside to DT this past year at UNC and had his best year rushing the passer. With his ability to play inside, outside and with his hand on or off the ground, he could really make our defense difficult to contend with on passing downs.

2413fanphins
01-29-2012, 01:56 PM
agreed it's coples and upshaw for me as well. I still have upshaw as my number one target. upshaw and wake would spell trouble for opposing defenses. I don't think coples makes it to our pick, but if he does I would have a real dilemma on my hands.

depending on philbins plan at qb, I want upshaw 99% of the time. I'd like to take a zietler or something of that nature in the 2nd if we truly decide that an interor lineman is a must. orson charles in the 3rd if he slides that far... would be a perfect three rounds in my opinion, again depending on the plan at qb.

Free agent ideas of course throw a kink in all of this. Ideally, I'd like to target nicks and use the 2nd round pick on weeden or tannehill if he should slide. Of course if they go after mario, upshaw is no longer a fit and we could look at a plethora of idea at round one...

one thing is certain... I haven't felt this good about an offseason in quite awhile.... i'm liking this team more and more with each passing day...

dolfan91
01-29-2012, 02:03 PM
I was very nervous about Coples, due to what seemed a lack of effort this season, especially in the Bowl Game ... He came to the Senior Bowl with 1 notion, and that was to play his heart out and make himself money!!! He accomplished his goal, but left me with questions about taking him and giving him all that money ... will you get the same effort play in and play out .. There is no denying Coples talents ... he'd be awesome teamed up with Odrick as pass rushing DT's in passing situations!!! I alo liked all the positive feed back on Taamu, he is a damn MONSTER and would love to get him in round #2 if he's available ... He reminds me of Tim Bowens in terms of his girth and thickness!!! Right now my favorite players going into the draft are Upshaw, Tannehill, Taamu, DeCastro and Minnifield ... I'd add Coples too, but I'll hold off until he becomes a Miami Dolphin!!

WaxOn WaxOff
01-29-2012, 02:12 PM
Couples, Adams, and Upshaw for me in that order. Adams has great movement for his tremendous size. Him at Left Tacke and Jake at Right looks awfully good (or vice versa). Melvin Ingram looked pretty darn good as well.

beanh8er
01-29-2012, 04:34 PM
Coples could seriously play any position on the D-Line in any front outside of NT he is that talented. Sign him up.

hooshoops
01-29-2012, 05:18 PM
sounds like doug martin is being viewed as a 2nd round rb...seems a little rich to me...i can see 3rd round but second round ehhh...vinny curry some talk about late 1st round...way too rich for me...kirk cousins in the 2nd...no thanks

but i don't grade guys as where they stack up in this draft value wise per say...i try and grade them where i think they're actual talent justifies round wise...so i won't come away with 32 guys per round like the picks would...i just don't view things that way...

there aren't 32 first round worthy talents in this draft...

cuban_refugee
01-29-2012, 05:34 PM
I think Brandon Boykin would be a good pick up for us in rds 3-4. I've really seen him mature as a Corner at UGA. He can be a lethal kick returner for us, too.

hooshoops
01-29-2012, 05:40 PM
boykin is body beautiful but all these damn corners are just north of 5 ft 9 it seems...i think he'll fit best in the slot where he can match his quickness and footwork with his matchup...again though provided he can be a sure tackler...i saw a guy who had better tools than his on field play showed...

none of these corners i saw do i take with a top 20 pick though...no less than 5 ft 10 cb that high for me...i just think at that height you're up against it on the boundary... that includes janoris jenkins for me

jim1
01-29-2012, 06:27 PM
I think Brandon Boykin would be a good pick up for us in rds 3-4. I've really seen him mature as a Corner at UGA. He can be a lethal kick returner for us, too.

If I read correctly Brandon Boykin broke his leg in the Senior Bowl game.

hooshoops
01-29-2012, 07:01 PM
dang...i didn't know that...

Awsi Dooger
01-29-2012, 08:37 PM
there aren't 32 first round worthy talents in this draft...

I was certainly underwhelmed by that game. In prior years I'd be familiar with virtually every player so it didn't matter how sloppy the game was. Yesterday I was almost worried about the state if the league if this is what we're stuck with.

Highlight of the game was Kellen Moore's dismayed reaction when two straight perfect passes were dropped in the end zone. I'm sure he never experienced that in four seasons at Boise State.

I'm not touting Moore but the lock of the year was he would perform far better in the game than the practice evaluations, when fans on every site seemed giddy to denounce him as not worthy of being on the field. Moore projects to low YPA if he had to play regularly in the NFL but I'll look to bet his team if he's on the field during the preseason, particularly second half, when his impeccable timing, smarts and anticipation will be too much for NFL backups.

Cordy Glenn looked good but I wasn't as impressed as during the one practice I watched. Needs to be nastier in run blocking and bend his knees slightly more in pass protection.

Joe Adams has wonderful athletic arrogance, mindful of Randal Hill as a Cane. Hill was overdrafted but Adams could be valuable pest for somebody a round or two later.

Brandon Weeden looked more natural than I expected dropping back from center. His form reminded me of somebody with a recent NFL history but I'm still stuck trying to place it. Weeden's arm can look elite on mid range zips with plenty of revolutions but downfield you realize it isn't special. He does look old out there compared to these kids. Facially and body language, I mean. I wouldn't put any stock in the notion that he's football young. Parcell's line, "You are what you are," is marvelously apropos elsewhere.

Not a Senior Bowl guy, obviously, but I was surprised to see Marcus Forston rated so high on some lists, in the 70-90 range. If true, that screams to the weakness of this bunch. Forston was on skates for the majority of his Canes career, effortlessly spun out of the way more frequently than he disrupted the backfield.

hooshoops
01-29-2012, 09:19 PM
agreed on the weeden arm part...in the intermediate it looks like a lazer but the further down the field it loses luster...and yesterday again we saw him throwing the ball to the wrong shoulder...throwing the ball behind the wr on slant routes...i have seen plenty of evidence this year of throws i think he should make given the clean pocket he misses where the balls behind or slightly off target...his legs looked pretty youthful to me yesterday though...and i do like the way he thinks down the field unlike nick foles who i think has an awful lot of check down in him... he's a tough call...this qb class has lost a lot of luster for me with barkey and wilson staying in school and so i think weeden is the 4th qb off the board...round 2 seems right to me

i can't get over the way mike adams just engulfed upshaw and ingram off the edge...once he got his hands on them it was over...but when i hear talk about him as a top 15 pick i'm left a little underwhelmed about this class...love the length love the patience he displays but top 15 pick...ehhh

coples for me is just the highest upside pick...the take a chance on greatness play...we play so many 4 man fronts anyways and he has the versatilty to shift inside on some sets and beat interior olinemen with his short area lateral quickness and length and we can also play him at de in the 34...got to love a guy who's almost 6 ft 6 and understands that if he can't get there to get his hands up in throwing lanes...yeah he's not overly explosive off the ball with his first step but i think i agree with ck when he says he has a legitimate 2nd and 3rd steps and frankly he must be more explosive than i think off the edge if he can gain the corner against tackles with that pretty average get off...he's a little straight linish for me also i guess thats to be expected given his measurables but frankly if this kids motor ran hot every down we wouldn't be sniffing him at pick #9...so i guess we have that going for us at least...

anyways...this draft as a whole as i've been sayin for some time now is underwhelming talent wise...i see a lot of guys who won't make it long in this class

datruth55
01-30-2012, 10:22 AM
I'm with you hoops...very underwhelming class overall, not very deep at any position either. Outside of Andrew Luck the QB class is extemely underwhelming IMO. In the Senior Bowl I was surprised with how well Kirk Cousins played, showed good zip and accuracy on the intermediate crossing routes, good poise in the pocket and pocket awareness and other than the dead duck INT that Weeden threw I thought he did OK. They seemed to be the best QBs in the game but I wouldn't take either of them in the first round.

Mike Adams played well but I noticed that his hands go straight to the outside shoulders of the defender. He'll get called for holding more often than not, they really didn't make a lot of penalty calls in that game.

Coples is top 10 worthy and I think if we're making the move to a 4-3 base then he's a no-brainer. If we go base 3-4 then I would be more inclined to take Upshaw or Ingram. I think Ingram presents a whole heck of a lot of upside. Unbelievable athletic ability for a guy his size. Coples showed himself to be solid in both run and pass...I wouldn't call him outstanding at either one but I think he can improve on both be a 7-10 sack guy with solid run stopping ability which isn't very common. Normally a guy is much better at one over the other.

I'd almost want us to use the first 3 picks and then just trade out of every round after that and load up for next years draft. This draft doesn't have a lot of talent. Most of these guys won't be in the league very long.

rrrrphin
01-30-2012, 10:44 AM
Mitchel Scwartz looked real good handling Coples and Upshaw in the first quarter.

Taamu looked beastly as well.

j-off-her-doll
01-30-2012, 11:48 AM
This year has really sucked for me - in terms of finding time to watch college football, etc. But I like the idea, hoops, of grading players based on their value (a 1st rounder in 2007 is a 1st rounder in 2012) as opposed to how they look next to the other guys in their class. And I think it brings up an interesting point. In a draft like this, it makes a lot of sense - to me - to move up or down based on the swells of talent. I think it makes a lot of sense in any draft really. Last year, for example, there were a lot of really good players being drafted in the 4th round (K. Hunter and D. Moore come to mind). If I'm a GM, I do my best to position myself to take advantage of those swells. I think we use our top-10 pick on Coples or Upshaw; maybe Richardson falls, and that complicates things, but probably Coples or Upshaw.

But it sounds like there's a good chance - and again, I'm going more on what I'm hearing this year - that the pick we have toward the top of the 2nd RD might not be worth that spot. Maybe we can use that pick to move up into a spot in the 1st where there's a player like a K. Wright or (if we like him) Tannehill. Or maybe we think there's going to be talent comparable to the top of the 2nd in the bottom of the 2nd and top of the 3rd, so we move back.

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 12:06 PM
i'm starting to wonder if upshaw or ingram are top 10 talent values...they lack the length you would ideally look for with a pick that high...but its just not an overly talented even first round crop...its only just after the senior bowl but there seems to be more momentum upwards to the top 10 in ingrams stock right now than upshaws...

i personally would prefer upshaw to ingram if its solb i'm looking for...ingram while showing off more pass rush arsenal last week in one on ones just seems a lot more raw to me...but you also have to like that he has the ability to rush from the inside like he did in the game despite that size...will ingram though flow down the los and run down things on the outside like upshaw though??? i have reservations about that

one thing i do know though is given coples measurables and upside he's a top 10 worthy pick in any draft...so that for me trumps all...

as for the actual value of our picks in each round and trading out it just depends on whats on the board when your coming on the clock or about to...you have a first round grade player on the board at #39 you really like you probably make the pick or maybe you get aggressive and move up if you think there's a major drop off with what you're gonna be looking at with #39...you don't see the real value you probably look to trade out if you feel like you have a lot of 50-75 players on the board so you can get multiple good players...problem with this thinking though is if you get too worried about quantity over quality you get a bunch of watered down talent...just depends on whats on the board and how you think the draft will shake out...

right now i would lean towards making the pick at #39 or whatever and making the pick in the 3rd cause i expect some things to fall to us that can help us immediately...just about any draft thats the case...

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 12:32 PM
b/t truth good observation about mike adams...

j-off-her-doll
01-30-2012, 12:34 PM
Absolutely agree. It depends on who is there. I was looking at a drafttek (terrible evaluation on that site) mock, and they had Tannehill, K. Wright, and Fleener all falling to or around our 2nd pick. If I like one of those guys with a 1st RD grade (I definitely would take Tannehill or Wright in the mid-to-late 1st, depending on what we do at QB in FA), I'm not waiting for them to come to me. I'd rather have half the picks and move up for players I want than wait for talent I'm OK with. But if there's just not a lot of legitimate 1st RD talent and the talent is pretty equal between rounds 2 and 4 or 3 and 5, I'm moving back to acquire picks.

I still think K. Hunter is better than D. Thomas. We moved up to draft Thomas. I think we'd have been better served moving down, drafting Hunter and D. Moore. Hindsight is what it is, but I would have drafted Hunter in the 2nd or 3rd (felt that way prior to the draft) - same for D. Moore.

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 12:43 PM
i don't think you're getting tannehill kendall wright or fleener around pick 40...not with the way this draft is shaping up...you want any of those guys i think you better move up...same for taamu...i'll be shocked if he was to get to #40

unless i'm really underestimating the depth of this underclassmens elite talent...

datruth55
01-30-2012, 12:51 PM
I'm still trying to figure out where the value is for us in the 2nd round. I don't expect Fleener or Kendall Wright to last into the 2nd, especially not to our pick. I see some guys who could be there in the 3rd and 4th that would be good value like a Brandon Washington at Guard or an Audie Cole at LB but if we're making the move to the 4-3 then a 4-3 DE has to be high on the list followed closely by a weakside linebacker. I would expect, with the amount of money we paid him, for Karlos Dansby to play MLB and Burnett to play SLB leaving a gaping hole at the Will. So is that Bruce Irvin, Nigel Bradham? I don't know. Do we take Brandon Boykin to play the slot corner and cover guys like Wes Welker?

I'd have to think a move to the 4-3 is going to make this a more defense heavy draft outside of a guard and/or RT. I would be more inclined to take a Matt McCants from UAB to play RT in the 3rd and using John Jerry as our RG and then spending the rest of our picks on filling holes for the defensive switch or Brandon Washington in the 3rd to play RG and putting Jerry at RT...Jerry has to figure in this equation somewhere and I don't think we need to spend 2 of our top 4 picks on O-line. Maybe add a guy in the 5th-7th round for depth.

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 12:57 PM
huh...i was thinking if we did go to a true 43 dansby at solb burnett at wolb and look for a mike (maybe misi fits in there in the rotation somewhere)...but i'm seeing us playing a hybrid d...a little of both

datruth55
01-30-2012, 01:01 PM
huh...i was thinking if we did go to a true 43 dansby at solb burnett at wolb and look for a mike (maybe misi fits in there in the rotation somewhere)...but i'm seeing us playing a hybrid d...a little of both
If we're looking for a Mike then Audie Cole fits the bill but do you think Burnett has the speed to keep up with TEs in the league? 4-3 linebackers have a lot more field to cover.

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 01:03 PM
If we're looking for a Mike then Audie Cole fits the bill but do you think Burnett has the speed to keep up with TEs in the league? 4-3 linebackers have a lot more field to cover.

i think burnett is one of the better cover backers in football...i think rather than cole in the middle i'd be very inclined to take lavonte david at #39 and make him the will in our 43...i think he'd be damn good at it and if he can carry say 5-10 more lbs sign me up

kuechly and vontaze burflict if its mikes could fit in also...but you better be ready to pull the trigger on kuechly at least very high

datruth55
01-30-2012, 01:15 PM
i think burnett is one of the better cover backers in football...i think rather than cole in the middle i'd be very inclined to take lavonte david at #39 and make him the will in our 43...i think he'd be damn good at it and if he can carry say 5-10 more lbs sign me up

kuechly and vontaze burflict if its mikes could fit in also...but you better be ready to pull the trigger on kuechly at least very high
I'm hearing the Eagles are very high on Kuechly and he could be their pick at #15.

And you just said you'd draft a Will but you shot down my post about drafting a Will with Dansby playing the Mike and Burnett playing the Sam...what the heck. Make up your mind, lol.

I have reservations about Burnett playing in that much space. He is a good cover linebacker but it's a lot more ground to cover. Burnett has spent his entire NFL career in the 3-4, different responsibilities for linebackers in the 4-3. There's more dropping back in coverage, more playing in the flat guarding against shallow crossing routes. I'm guessing Coyle would probably run more of a zone coverage scheme. Is that was Cincy runs?

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 01:23 PM
I'm hearing the Eagles are very high on Kuechly and he could be their pick at #15.

And you just said you'd draft a Will but you shot down my post about drafting a Will with Dansby playing the Mike and Burnett playing the Sam...what the heck. Make up your mind, lol.

I have reservations about Burnett playing in that much space. He is a good cover linebacker but it's a lot more ground to cover. Burnett has spent his entire NFL career in the 3-4, different responsibilities for linebackers in the 4-3. There's more dropping back in coverage, more playing in the flat guarding against shallow crossing routes. I'm guessing Coyle would probably run more of a zone coverage scheme. Is that was Cincy runs?

i was just throwing out different scenarios...needless to say i am a huge lavonte david guy...he can run he can cover he's instinctual he can blitz and overwhelm backs in pass pro on contact and he packs a pop...i think he's a sweet 43 will...i just wish he wasn't only just over 6 ft and 225 lbs...

i think the point you make about burnett in coverage is a good one in a 43...i'm just not sure i'm a huge fan of cole as the mike...but you know ireland loves that size

datruth55
01-30-2012, 01:53 PM
Lavonte David would bring some serious speed to the linebacking corp for sure...I'm not even sure he's 225 though. He may be less than that.

We'll see if Ireland breaks rank with the Parcells way of drafting where players have to fit inside the requirements of height and weight for each position. He did kind of break the rule when he traded for Reggie Bush I think.

TheWalrus
01-30-2012, 02:10 PM
Dansby makes more sense at MLB, imo, with Misi at SOLB and Burnett on the weak side.

Anyway, if the reason we're moving more to a 4-3 is that we're in nickel so often, especially with NE and Buffalo in the division, it wouldn't make much sense to spend anything resembling a high pick on a guy who's only going to be on the field for two downs. You can find those guys late.

I agree Fleener isn't making it to #40. I expect him to be a top 20 pick, personally. San Diego at #18 and Chicago at #19 seem likely targets to me. Otherwise Pitt at #24 makes a lot of sense.

datruth55
01-30-2012, 02:18 PM
I think Misi playing linebacker in the 4-3 is a major liability. He was a 4-3 DE at Utah, I'd be more inclined to play him there as a backup.

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 02:22 PM
Dansby makes more sense at MLB, imo, with Misi at SOLB and Burnett on the weak side.

Anyway, if the reason we're moving more to a 4-3 is that we're in nickel so often, especially with NE and Buffalo in the division, it wouldn't make much sense to spend anything resembling a high pick on a guy who's only going to be on the field for two downs. You can find those guys late.

I agree Fleener isn't making it to #40. I expect him to be a top 20 pick, personally. San Diego at #18 and Chicago at #19 seem likely targets to me. Otherwise Pitt at #24 makes a lot of sense.

thats probably the right play...if misi can play the strong side...which i think he can personally in some packages at least...i'd at least give him some reps in camp...we need to get more from him cause as a 34 solb we're not getting bang for our buck...misis strength in his hands would suit him well at 43 slb...i don't get why he hasn't gotten run at ilb anyways...he showed at the senior bowl he could play some 43 backer also...

if its full time 43 i agree taamu doesn't make much sense but if its hybrid and a lot of 34 and we lose solia i'm looking long and hard at taamu at #40...

fleener with the giants late in round 1 seems like a great fit to me also...they get a mismatch te instead of that slug they have now and that o is lethal...

j-off-her-doll
01-30-2012, 03:45 PM
I think Misi playing linebacker in the 4-3 is a major liability. He was a 4-3 DE at Utah, I'd be more inclined to play him there as a backup.

He's have to lose weight. I think if he got down to around 240 to 245, which I think he could do, he'd be fine. He moves well in space, and he looked even better in space at the Senior Bowl - when he was around 250. He's too heavy now.

datruth55
01-30-2012, 08:03 PM
He's have to lose weight. I think if he got down to around 240 to 245, which I think he could do, he'd be fine. He moves well in space, and he looked even better in space at the Senior Bowl - when he was around 250. He's too heavy now.
He's 251 now. He supposedly moved around well enough at the combine and senior bowl that most felt he would be very good in coverage but in 2 seasons he has 3 passes defensed to go with his 5.5 career sacks and 75 career tackles.

Canadi-Phin
01-30-2012, 08:22 PM
Dansby makes more sense at MLB, imo, with Misi at SOLB and Burnett on the weak side.

Anyway, if the reason we're moving more to a 4-3 is that we're in nickel so often, especially with NE and Buffalo in the division, it wouldn't make much sense to spend anything resembling a high pick on a guy who's only going to be on the field for two downs. You can find those guys late.

I agree Fleener isn't making it to #40. I expect him to be a top 20 pick, personally. San Diego at #18 and Chicago at #19 seem likely targets to me. Otherwise Pitt at #24 makes a lot of sense.

This is totally the lb crew I envision when we go to a 4-3 set. Wake-Solai-Starks- Odrick as the 1 and 2nd down dLine and then switch to Wake-Starks-Odrick-Upshaw or a guy like Robert mathis as the other end. I really don't think the move to 4-3 would be that tough for this team. I think we have the talent to play either front. I would love Upshaw because I think he upgrade us in alot of ways especially in a 3-4 front replacing Misi. A guy like mathis being brought in to rush the passer when we go Nickel wouldn't hurt and maybe we can get for a vet minimum

datruth55
01-30-2012, 08:30 PM
This is totally the lb crew I envision when we go to a 4-3 set. Wake-Solai-Starks- Odrick as the 1 and 2nd down dLine and then switch to Wake-Starks-Odrick-Upshaw or a guy like Robert mathis as the other end. I really don't think the move to 4-3 would be that tough for this team. I think we have the talent to play either front. I would love Upshaw because I think he upgrade us in alot of ways especially in a 3-4 front replacing Misi. A guy like mathis being brought in to rush the passer when we go Nickel wouldn't hurt and maybe we can get for a vet minimum

I'm sure Belichick thought the same thing when he switched to the 4-3 in New England to start the season. He finally wised up and let Haynesworth go and ran more 3-4 towards the end of the season the the Pats defense improved.

I don't think people realize how difficult it's going to be for this team to run a 4-3 with our present personnel. If Belichick struggled with the move, a guy who knows defense better than most DCs in the league, I'm not sure what people are thinking with a first year DC running the defense for us. Are people really expecting Coyle to be better with the switch than Belichick?

hooshoops
01-30-2012, 08:37 PM
robert mathis for the vet minimum...i hope thats a typo...

finfan54
01-30-2012, 10:44 PM
I am bewaring Coples. Upshaw will be natural fit. I thought Coples went vs. very weak competition.

finfan54
01-30-2012, 10:46 PM
i also think the 4-3 talk is noise to confuse.

Canadi-Phin
01-30-2012, 11:33 PM
robert mathis for the vet minimum...i hope thats a typo... okay maybe not bet minimum but the guy is 33 he's not going to get a huge contract.

Canadi-Phin
01-30-2012, 11:36 PM
I'm sure Belichick thought the same thing when he switched to the 4-3 in New England to start the season. He finally wised up and let Haynesworth go and ran more 3-4 towards the end of the season the the Pats defense improved.

I don't think people realize how difficult it's going to be for this team to run a 4-3 with our present personnel. If Belichick struggled with the move, a guy who knows defense better than most DCs in the league, I'm not sure what people are thinking with a first year DC running the defense for us. Are people really expecting Coyle to be better with the switch than Belichick?

They didn't have as versatile pieces that we do. They dom't have a pass rusher ans to have a 4-3 you need to have 2 of them. Our lbs are way better then theirs. Our dine are more versatile. They had meat and meat only. They don' t have an odrick or a Starks. Our defense is much more talented then theirs hence the better numbers by our defense.

datruth55
01-31-2012, 12:18 AM
They didn't have as versatile pieces that we do. They dom't have a pass rusher ans to have a 4-3 you need to have 2 of them. Our lbs are way better then theirs. Our dine are more versatile. They had meat and meat only. They don' t have an odrick or a Starks. Our defense is much more talented then theirs hence the better numbers by our defense.

They had two guys with 10 sacks a piece and Ninkovich added 6.5 sacks. Wake led us with 8.5 sacks and our #2 pass rusher was the now retired Jason Taylor with 7.

Keep trying to convince yourself this is going to be easy.

TheWalrus
01-31-2012, 01:10 AM
They had two guys with 10 sacks a piece and Ninkovich added 6.5 sacks. Wake led us with 8.5 sacks and our #2 pass rusher was the now retired Jason Taylor with 7.

Keep trying to convince yourself this is going to be easy.

When your offense is as good as New England's it always means more sacks for your defense relative to your talent because teams are going to be passing against you that much more.

I don't think the transition to a base 4-3 would be easy, per se, but it wouldn't be all that hard. As many others have noted, we're already playing a ton of 4 man front. The only thing the team would really be missing is a true run stopping LDE. In nickel guys like Langford and Odrick have played sort of a version of it but those guys don't move well enough laterally to man that spot on run downs, imo. I don't think Courtney Upshaw is that guy, for what it's worth. I really like him in a 3-4 but he's just not big enough to do it in a 4-3 on run downs. A guy like Kroy Biermann (who's a free agent this year and not all that likely to resign with Ray Edwards taking his starting job this year) could come in relatively cheaply and do that job (assuming they didn't want Misi to bulk up and try it). Then what you need is an Antwan Barnes type to come in and rush the passer in nickel situations. Maybe you can get a Robert Mathis to do that job, depending on the money. But that guy hates coming out of the game and my instinct would put him on a team where he'd play more.

Either way, not having enough pass rushers is a problem no matter what defensive scheme we're playing.

Canadi-Phin
01-31-2012, 03:34 AM
They had two guys with 10 sacks a piece and Ninkovich added 6.5 sacks. Wake led us with 8.5 sacks and our #2 pass rusher was the now retired Jason Taylor with 7.

Keep trying to convince yourself this is going to be easy.

Carter had a great game vs jets that help inflate those numbers. But my point was we have one elite pass rusher and much better versatile dlinemen. IMO. If you don't agree fine. I think Carter and Anderson snuck up on alot of teams which kudos to each of them.

datruth55
01-31-2012, 11:03 AM
Right, numbers were inflated by teams having to pass. Well lets look at it some more then.

We had 41 sacks as a team last year...6 of our sacks came from DBs (corner blitz, safety blitz), 7 of our sacks just left the team in the form of retirement (Jason Taylor). New England had 40 sacks as a team and only 1 sack came from a DB.

New Orleans, which is another team that could put up a lot of points and teams had to throw to try and catch up with them...like that Pats, had 33 sacks as a team and Gregg Williams their former DC (and there were people around here that think this guy is good and I think he's overrated and another reason I'm so glad we didn't get Fisher) loves to blitz so it's no surprise their leader in sacks was Roman Harper, a safety, with 7.5. Will Smith was second on the team with 6.5.

Green Bay, another team that put up a lot of points and forced other teams to have to pass to play catch up, had 29 sacks as a team with 4.5 coming from the DBs.

So if stats are inflated because teams are having to pass more to play catch up why did the Saints and Packers have so few sacks?

TheWalrus
01-31-2012, 01:40 PM
Right, numbers were inflated by teams having to pass. Well lets look at it some more then.

We had 41 sacks as a team last year...6 of our sacks came from DBs (corner blitz, safety blitz), 7 of our sacks just left the team in the form of retirement (Jason Taylor). New England had 40 sacks as a team and only 1 sack came from a DB.

New Orleans, which is another team that could put up a lot of points and teams had to throw to try and catch up with them...like that Pats, had 33 sacks as a team and Gregg Williams their former DC (and there were people around here that think this guy is good and I think he's overrated and another reason I'm so glad we didn't get Fisher) loves to blitz so it's no surprise their leader in sacks was Roman Harper, a safety, with 7.5. Will Smith was second on the team with 6.5.

Green Bay, another team that put up a lot of points and forced other teams to have to pass to play catch up, had 29 sacks as a team with 4.5 coming from the DBs.

So if stats are inflated because teams are having to pass more to play catch up why did the Saints and Packers have so few sacks?

Perhaps you missed it where I said more sacks relative to talent. Outside of Clay Matthews the Packers don't have anybody who can rush the passer, and teams ganged up on him so much he only had 6 sacks this year. I mean, Desmond Bishop had 5 sacks to rank second on that team and our own Erik Walden was third on the team with 3 sacks. Hence why the Packers ended up 32nd in defense.

Likewise with the Saints. When Roman Harper leads your team in sacks, that means you're having to create pressure rather than getting there with talent. Will Smith (6.5 sacks) missed two games and didn't look the same to me this year and Junior Galette (4.5 sacks) is a guy who was undrafted out of Stillman College.

datruth55
01-31-2012, 01:47 PM
I guess we can make excuses till the cows come home. One post says it's relative to talent and another says Carter and Anderson snuck up on people and I guess Ninkovich is an all star linebacker all of a sudden.

We'll agree to disagree since I've already hijacked this thread long enough.

hooshoops
01-31-2012, 02:39 PM
When your offense is as good as New England's it always means more sacks for your defense relative to your talent because teams are going to be passing against you that much more.

I don't think the transition to a base 4-3 would be easy, per se, but it wouldn't be all that hard. As many others have noted, we're already playing a ton of 4 man front. The only thing the team would really be missing is a true run stopping LDE. In nickel guys like Langford and Odrick have played sort of a version of it but those guys don't move well enough laterally to man that spot on run downs, imo. I don't think Courtney Upshaw is that guy, for what it's worth. I really like him in a 3-4 but he's just not big enough to do it in a 4-3 on run downs. A guy like Kroy Biermann (who's a free agent this year and not all that likely to resign with Ray Edwards taking his starting job this year) could come in relatively cheaply and do that job (assuming they didn't want Misi to bulk up and try it). Then what you need is an Antwan Barnes type to come in and rush the passer in nickel situations. Maybe you can get a Robert Mathis to do that job, depending on the money. But that guy hates coming out of the game and my instinct would put him on a team where he'd play more.

Either way, not having enough pass rushers is a problem no matter what defensive scheme we're playing.

yeah i have a hard time seeing us surviving in run d in a 43 with wake and upshaw at de...coples seems like the natural fit...

if its free agency i like the idea of adding a koy biermann also...i think he's underrated and that's the kind of underrated value in free agency that we need to find...although for my recollection i think biermanns value lies more in his pass rush... there's another de there who doesn't get any run who i think can play lawrence sidbury from richmond who i was very high on when he came out in the draft who i think could help us also as a pass rusher...he has the pretty good tools

Canadi-Phin
01-31-2012, 10:47 PM
Right, numbers were inflated by teams having to pass. Well lets look at it some more then.

We had 41 sacks as a team last year...6 of our sacks came from DBs (corner blitz, safety blitz), 7 of our sacks just left the team in the form of retirement (Jason Taylor). New England had 40 sacks as a team and only 1 sack came from a DB.

New Orleans, which is another team that could put up a lot of points and teams had to throw to try and catch up with them...like that Pats, had 33 sacks as a team and Gregg Williams their former DC (and there were people around here that think this guy is good and I think he's overrated and another reason I'm so glad we didn't get Fisher) loves to blitz so it's no surprise their leader in sacks was Roman Harper, a safety, with 7.5. Will Smith was second on the team with 6.5.

Green Bay, another team that put up a lot of points and forced other teams to have to pass to play catch up, had 29 sacks as a team with 4.5 coming from the DBs.

So if stats are inflated because teams are having to pass more to play catch up why did the Saints and Packers have so few sacks?

So they had lots of sacks? Who had the better defense? We gave up less yards and less points. They can have their sacks. Again our team has better talent in the front 7 then they do. You using sacks as the tell tale stat if we can transfer over. I think our talent in the front 7 is superior and we can do it easier then them.

Hoops if we went to a solid 4-3 I'd prefer Odrick drop 10lbs and move to LDE. Still has the pass rush ability and can set the edge against the run. Throw Solai and Starks in the middle and Wake would be our weak link against the run but our strength in pass rush situations, this is why I said earlier that someone like Mathis brought in for a vet Friendly, see I'm learning, contract we could then push Odrick inside and have two speed rushers. If we go hard 4-3 then I really like Coples for that pick if he happens to be there at 8/9 which I think the jags will grab him before us. Upshaw in a 4-3 may still be able to handle the run playing end as he is still quite heavy. Not ideal but still not that bad. I'm probably wrong, Slimm would be able to defend him better then me or tell me if he wouldn't stand up to the run in that front.